Woman's Hour - All-women team travelling to Ukraine border, Euro 2022, Parenting adult children

Episode Date: July 5, 2022

As part of a charity mission this month an all-women team are travelling from the UK to Ukraine with much needed supplies and plan to return with 28 refugee women and children, and their pets. Two of the women on the trip are Barbara Want and Suzanne Pullin.As a former top civil servant says that No 10 did not tell the truth when it said the PM was unaware of formal complaints about Chris Pincher's behaviour we hear from BBC Correspondent Ione Wells and Dr Helen Mott who helped draw up the independent complaints and grievance scheme at Wesminster in 2018.Half of all children in lone-parent families are now living in poverty according to a new report. We speak to the co-author of the report, Xiaowei Xu, a Senior Research Economist at the IFS, and Victoria Benson, Chief Executive of Gingerbread.Tomorrow the Women’s Euros will begin - England and Northern Ireland are taking part and 2022 looks like it'll be a huge year for the women’s game with matches shown on terrestrial TV, record attendances, greater visibility and awareness. A new exhibition Goal Power! at Brighton Museum celebrates the achievements of the trailblazers in the women's game and Charlotte Petts spoke to some of them. There's no doubt it's challenging being a parent when your children depend upon you for pretty much everything. But what about later on, when they are supposedly independent and all grown up? Surely it gets easier. Not necessarily according to authors of two new books, Celia Dodd and Annette Byford join Emma in the studio.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Today we're going to get the latest on the developing situation at Downing Street concerning the truth and the potential spinning of it after a retired civil servant made an unusual intervention this morning. I'll be talking to the woman who broke the story yesterday that began the unravelling of the Prime Minister's account of what he knew about his former chief whip

and allegations of sexual assault. And I'll also be talking to the woman who drew up the independent complaints and grievance scheme at Westminster in 2018 when there were allegations relating to sexual misconduct in Parliament again. We'll be hearing her take on the developments today. We're also going to hear about a new report regarding single mothers and the impact of rising costs in this country. And ahead of tomorrow's Women's Euros, and I know so many of you are excited about it because so many of your messages yesterday, which were just glorious.

We will have more amazing insight from women's football over the years for you, and I will return to some of those messages I didn't quite get to yesterday. But my question today for you is about what you have done, built, achieved, created, put together with an all-female team or crew. Tell me what comes to mind when I say that to you. That is because today I will be talking to two of an all-female team who, of their own volition, have decided to travel to the Ukraine

border with supplies and in a bid to help 28 women and child refugees with safe passage. They're going to be starting their mission, their journey soon, but before they do, they'll be joining me on today's programme. But what have you done with an all-women crew it can be on a much smaller scale it can be a small crew a big crew a big team how did you put yourself together how did you know each other did you come together to do that particular thing let me know get in touch with me here at woman's hour which is largely an all-female crew as you may imagine day in day out and we put this programme together for you, with you. And our messages that we receive from you make the programme all the better.

So please do let us know your response. I'm really looking forward to this one. 84844, that's the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. We always like to tell you, remind you, text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour. Or if you prefer, as many do, you can email me through the Women's Hour website

with your stories of what you have done or created or built with an all-female crew. But what did the Prime Minister know, and when did he know it? It's a question many journalists, and I'm sure many of you, have been wondering since Number 10 said Boris Johnson was unaware of official complaints about the Conservative MP Chris Pincher, who he then went on to promote to his deputy chief whip. And again, for those who aren't that familiar with parliamentary parlance, if you're in the whip's office, you are effectively in charge of the

conduct, the behaviour, the voting and the welfare of your fellow MPs in your party. Well, this morning, what's being described as a bombshell letter appeared on Twitter. It was addressed to Catherine Stone, the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, and it was from Lord MacDonald, a senior former civil servant. He has claimed that Number 10 has not told the truth and that Boris Johnson was briefed in person about an investigation into Mr Pinscher, then a Foreign Office minister. He spoke to my colleagues, you may have heard it, on the Today programme just after 8 o'clock this morning. In a moment, I'll be talking to the woman who drew up the independent complaints and grievance scheme at Westminster in 2018,

the last time, you may recall, there were allegations widespread relating to sexual misconduct in Parliament. But first I'm going to talk to our political correspondent, Ione Wells, who yesterday started to break the story and did break the story, which started to unravel some of the messaging coming out of Number 10. But before we get to that, Ione, just to remind our listeners, what did that letter say this morning? What were the key parts of it? Morning, Emma. Well, this letter, as you say, has been described as pretty bombshell. This

is from Simon MacDonald, the former head of the diplomatic service, who essentially has accused Number 10 of not telling the truth in the way that they've handled this fallout of multiple allegations about Chris Pyncher's behaviour. They say that it is not true that the Prime Minister was not aware of any kind of complaints made about Mr Pyncher's behaviour. He also stresses that it is not true that there were no official complaints made about Mr Pyncher that Boris Johnson could have been aware of as well. He's stressed that their sort of modifications since are still not accurate. And also, crucially, claims that when a complaint was raised about Mr. Pinch's behaviour at the Foreign Office,

Boris Johnson, who was Prime Minister at the time, was briefed in person about both the initiation of the process investigating Mr. Pinch's behaviour, but also the outcome of that investigation as well. Have we had a response from Downing Street? It's now been a couple of hours since that so-called bombshell letter dropped. They haven't issued a sort of formal response to this letter yet. But interestingly, when I spoke to Number 10 last night, after we initially broke the story of the fact that there was this formal complaint that was raised at the Foreign Office when Chris Pincher was a Foreign Office minister, and the fact that Boris Johnson and the then Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab

were made aware of that complaint and the subsequent process, Downing Street pointed us to the previous response that they had issued, essentially saying that both that when they appointed Chris Pyncher to the Whip's office, that they had sought advice from the Cabinet Office's Propriety and Ethics team, that they weren't advised against his appointment. And secondly, that while they sort of conceded the Prime Minister had been aware of some of the media reports and allegations about Mr. Pinch's behaviour, they re-emphasised this line that they believed all those allegations had either been resolved or had not led to a formal complaint. Now, shouldn't they have just said that in the first place? Because then none of this would

have happened. Well, exactly. And that is exactly the point that a number of their MPs are making, that some of their own ministers were brought out just days ago to essentially say that the Prime Minister was not aware of any allegations before this appointment. Now, that line has significantly changed and been watered down. And as I say, now they are at a point where they are essentially saying, well, he was aware of allegations, but they were allegations that were either resolved

or didn't lead to a formal complaint. Now, in this case, we know it did lead to a formal complaint, as Simon MacDonald's letter this morning has confirmed. They seem to be now hanging on this word resolved and essentially implying that because it is resolved, it therefore was OK to appoint him to the Whip's office. But the truth is on the stand and the way that the truth is presented to the electorate. I'm always at pains when interviewing ministers to try and understand what they have been advised to say at the so-called line, what they actually believe. Often you see this when ministers resign, they then have a completely different view sometimes

of their entire brief, and yet you've interviewed them for years and they have a different line that they say. But you have just said there that you spoke about when you broke this story yesterday, which started to, as we were talking about, unravel unravel that story but is there no response this morning no response this morning so no response from the prime minister's office that there has been this letter no no response yet from number 10 the only government response that we've had today uh was from the deputy prime minister dominic raab so he was also somebody who i was told was made aware of this

complaint at the time because he was foreign secretary when Chris Pinscher was a foreign office minister. Now, he said it was news to me, in his words, that Boris Johnson had been briefed about this complaint. But his sort of justification for the fact he was still appointed was that he said that this particular investigation in the foreign office did not lead to any formal disciplinary action. And he did not think it necessary to tell the Prime Minister. He also went on to say that both he and Lord Macdonald spoke to Mr Pinscher in no uncertain terms about his behaviour and said that Mr Pinscher had apologised and promised not to repeat it. So Dominic Raab is conceding as well here that there was a complaint made that a process took place in the Foreign Office and that he personally spoke to Mr Pinscher about his behaviour as well.

And a final word, yes or no, any more from Mr Pyncher this morning? No, no response from Mr Pyncher this morning, particularly not in response to these particular allegations around a Foreign Office complaint either. Ione Wells, thank you very much, our political correspondent. Well, earlier, just before coming on air, I managed to speak to Dr Helen Mott, who is the woman who helped draw up

the Independent Complaints and Grievance grievance scheme at Westminster set up in 2018 after a spate of allegations of bullying and social misconduct. You may remember that the name Pestminster was bandied about at that time with the reports on it. Well, I began by asking her about the decision of Lord Macdonald to intervene on the issue. First, I want to give you my emotional response when I heard that this morning on the radio, which was, you know, a kind of a feeling of shame, really, on the part of all those really good people who I have the privilege of working with in Westminster. I'm talking about politicians and civil servants and just reflecting on the enormous discretion that those brilliant senior civil servants have and just how far you have to be pushed to take the step to do what he has done this morning. So I suppose that was my first reflection. I felt shame and it did make me feel, does anybody else actually feel shame?

An emotional response, a human response, that's your first. I suppose then knowing the second part of your world, if you like, the sort of other response you could have, what was that knowing how you've tried to help create systems that stop people, the wrong people arguably, being promoted or put into positions. I'm still aware a lot of what concerns Mr Pinchot are allegations, but there are also some serious concerns. Yeah, and some substantiated allegations, I think, if what we heard this morning is right. So, I mean, on the one hand, it's very clear to me that the procedures and scheme that are in place now since 2017 since 2018 um are a lot better than what existed before which you know that was completely dependent on party political processes and so on and that shouldn't be happening um and and now there is

an independent scheme that people can use if they feel confident enough. So I suppose partly I'm thinking, oh, God, is this another blow to the confidence of people who have experienced sexual misconduct, sexual harassment and so on to coming forward? Because if we can't give people the confidence to come forward, that's an absolutely key issue for addressing this. Does it also show you how and perhaps the rest of us, but you in particular, someone who was brought in to try and help create a system, does it show you how politics really works? Yeah, while I was in Westminster, it was on more than one occasion, people said to me, you know, this is politics, this is how it works. I mean, we can, politics should be better than that. I feel very strongly that our democratic elected representatives should be from the very best of us. And importantly, as well, you know,

members of parliament are people who are there to represent and advocate for the most vulnerable people in their communities. We have to be able to have trust that the people who have been selected to do that work are people who can be trusted around vulnerable people. Yes. And I suppose what your system won't include is the importance of loyalty, is the importance of connections that people have. You know, that you could argue isn't something just restrained to politics. It's across lots of areas of life, but it's a particular part of politics that you could, as is being alleged this morning by Lord Macdonald, have a situation where the now Prime Minister has been, or as has been said, briefed face to face about somebody and concerns about them, and then goes on to promote them.

Yeah, absolutely. So we all understand, I think, that, you know, loyalty and friendships and old school networks and all the rest of it, unfortunately, realistically play a part in every part of public life and working life. But the idea that that would supersede a concern about somebody's personal behaviour is where we absolutely must very clearly draw the line. There will be some listening to this thinking, we've elected the Prime Minister, we have asked for him to make decisions on our behalf. And this is one of the decisions he's made. And it's not proving to be perhaps the correct one or the right one but people do make mistakes of course there's now consternation about truth and what's been said and what's been told to be said I mean where do you come out on that that there

is human error there are human errors there are poor judgments still to be made, even by the very top minister in the land. I guess personally, that's a question of patience running out with indulging any number of mistakes that continue to be made. You know, these systems are supposed to be clear, but they do still at the end of the day, I think in Westminster, rely on integrity at the very top. That's something that we've always expected would be the case. Yes. And so are you saying you don't believe that is the case at the moment? I'm saying we've seen the resignation of ethics advisors. I'm saying that newspapers who have been very supportive of the people at the top in Westminster have started to have those conversations about trustworthiness and integrity. I mean, again, you know, this isn't my place. I advise on the best ways that we can devise to deal with sexual misconduct, but importantly also to prevent it from happening in the future.

And let's get a word on that if we can, because we talked yesterday, I interviewed the chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, Caroline Noakes, she's also a Conservative MP, and she talked of what she can say probably more freely than you, and also is in a position to say she she talks of her head being in her hands with, you know, five scandals, conservative scandals in the last three months and also what's just been happening in and around some of these allegations. But it was of interest to talk to her about what still needs to change and what needs to be put in place to make Parliament

safe for men in this case, but also for women. And whether we take, you know, those those complaints of women and men seriously enough on their own, but also in comparison to each other. For you, do you think there needs to be greater tests put in place before somebody is even put to the electorate? That's absolutely what I think. And I've said this, and I've been saying this for a number of years. Yes, I mean, I think that's where the problem starts, isn't it? You think about safeguarding and what has happened in the last 10 or 20 years about people in positions of power, and how important it is to ensure that they are the right people and not the kind of people who would want to abuse power. I mean, I think I feel very strongly, and I'm sure most people would agree that unfortunately, electoral power, the power that is in the walls of Westminster, is a very

powerful thing. And, of course, inevitably, as well as the really brilliant public spirited people who want to be public servants, first and foremost, there will be people who are basically attracted to power and to wielding power. We know that. We ought to be designing selection procedures to help to weed those people out or at least to help us to get a better grip on whether we think that the kind of people that we're electing to represent the most vulnerable among us are going to be doing it well and with integrity. So, you know, I'm just imagining the Labour or Conservative or Lib Dem, whatever party, associations sitting in local drafty halls, church halls, and what I know of those selection processes and who you've got to know and if it's your turn and how you go forward for it. I mean, what you're suggesting is an overhaul in some respects of that? I would love to see an overhaul of that. And I think that would have

benefits in all kinds of ways. I mean, this impacts directly on the ability of women to be selected and to serve as politicians, doesn't it? You know, is it about how much smoothing you can do, how many doors you can knock on, even though you might have a number of small kids at home and you're juggling a lot of different jobs. You know, or is it about you as a person of integrity who will serve your constituency and your party? Well, you know, I'm sure that I'm not convinced that at the moment that is what that looks like. And I'm sure the public aren't convinced either. And you think politics would be a safer place with those sorts of systems, those sorts of tests, psychological tests and otherwise put in? I do. Very clear view there from Dr. Helen Mott and some interesting ideas as well. She was drafted in to help draw up that independent complaints and grievance scheme at Westminster.

But feeling this morning, as you can hear, and I'm sure some of you feel free to get in touch, will do so, that she's also seeing how sometimes politics works differently to the schemes and the setups that can be put in place, as of course, it is a place of work. You're also getting in touch to share some of your stories, inspired by my next two guests, because I've asked you to get in touch and be so kind, as many of you are, to tell us the stories of all female crews, all women teams, what you've done just in the presence of women,

what you've created, what you've achieved, what you've worked on, what's simply just happened, perhaps, just with women. Because, of course, thinking about the power of women, we are turning our minds now to the war in Ukraine, which is continuing, of course,

and as of yesterday, all of the Luhansk region is now in Russian hands. Women now make up approximately 22% of the Ukrainian military. But of course, most women have left the country, those who have been able to do so. Some remain who haven't been able to leave. Later this month, an all-female team are travelling from the UK to the Ukraine border with much needed supplies and plan to return a few days later with 28 refugee women and children and their pets. Two of the women who will be on that trip are very recent friends, Suzanne Pullen and Barbara Wont, who are with me now. A warm welcome to you both. Good morning.

Suzanne, I thought I'd start with you because I believe you've done this before, this trip. This will be my third trip, Yeah, I've done two previously. Why did you want to do this or how did it come about? So basically, it's a set of friends in Penrith and Oxford that just decided one day to take some aid out to the Ukrainian border and realised when they were in the refugee centres that the refugees need moving around Europe away from the border and having safe passage back to the UK to meet their host families or sponsors here. And it's really grown from there. So now on a weekly basis, there's four minibuses going out, two drivers in each, bringing back 28 refugees and pets. And you're a driver?

I'm a driver. Is that right? Yes, I'm one of the drivers. Okay, how did that role come to you? Are you a particularly good driver? Is that your... I'm one of the drivers. Okay, how did that role come to you? Are you a particularly good driver? I'd like to think so. I bumped into a friend who had done it the week before in a pub.

Right. And he was so moved by what he'd done and told me about it. And we all cried. And I said, I can drive. I've got time. I can do that. And the next week, I found myself driving to Ukraine. And it's an all-female trip.

This time is an all-female trip. It'll be the first all-female trip? This time is an all-female trip. It'll be the first all-female trip. We have a team of or a group of 55 drivers, 11 of which are women, and really we need to grow the female population of drivers within that group, and I thought this would be a really good way to do that. Just before I come to Barbara,

and I know you two are, as I say, very recent friends, looking this morning, the official advice is people shouldn't go to Ukraine. If they want to help, they should donate. In fact, the Ukrainian ambassador, you're going to the border, but to the UK is on the record saying money would be better placed rather than bulky items. What's your take on that? I know you will have done your research. We don't go into the Ukraine.

We go to the Ukrainian-Polish border. We deliver aid that then is moved on into the Ukraine the following day. So last week, we took out 16,000 reusable sanitary pads to go to the maternity units and refugee centres and nappies. And we delivered that to the mountain rescue team on the border. And then it was taken in the following day. So we are not in danger at all. Yeah, there are some concerns about your danger and your safety. So you would say? No, we don't cross the border at all. We stay in Poland. Okay, there you go. There's some questions already answered that I could anticipate

already coming in. Barbara, good morning. Good morning. And you two met recently, is that right? Five weeks ago, we were at an all weekend anniversary party with some friends. And Suzanne and I discovered very early on that we had something in common, which is we were both widowed with children. We brought our boys up. We both have boys. We brought them up after losing our husbands. And when widows with young children or who've brought up young children meet, they have a lot to share. What I didn't expect was that four weeks later, Suzanne would text me and say, do you want to join me in a minibus driving to the Ukraine border? But it took me all of three

seconds to say yes. Right. Sorry. And did you find something about Barbara that made you think, yes, she needs to join this crew? Energy, energy. You've got to have a lot of energy to do this. Suzanne hasn't seen me driving yet. Are you on the driving rotor? I will be on the rotor. I have never driven a minibus. I'm going to be taught how to do it. My kids say the poor refugees might have been in danger in Ukraine, but when they get in a bus with me, oh my goodness, but I will drive well. I'm quite anxious about it. I'm not a great navigator, but I'll be sharing the driving. We're doing two hours on, two hours off. So we're very conscious of safety. We are going to be driving pretty much for 24 hours, but sleeping in those breaks. So we will be very, very careful. Why do you want to do this? You know, my mother was a refugee. I saw a photograph on social media at the beginning

of this war of a single suitcase in someone's apartment in Ukraine and they said we're about to leave with just this. We don't know if we're ever going to come back. My mother was a refugee in Eastern Europe after the war. She left her home with a single suitcase. She had an hour to pack it. She didn't know if she was going to go back. She ended up in Germany. As a teenager she didn't have enough to eat. She didn't have a school to going to go back. She ended up in Germany. As a teenager, she didn't have enough to eat. She didn't have a school to go to. She lived on a diet of potatoes. And she said it was only the help and the kindness of people in the community

that got her food, that got her to school, and that got her family really to survive. And that image of the suitcase, when I saw that, I thought, my mother has gone through something similar. I know image of the suitcase, when I saw that, I thought my mother has gone through something similar. I know millions of people have. But to me, there is that personal connection. And I just feel all of us, if we can just do one little thing to help in this enormous crisis, and there are people behind the scenes helping us. There are people who have donated minibuses. And by the way, we have been donated a minibus by Millwall Football

Club so if anyone would like to top that there are lots of people helping working behind the scenes donating money. Do you have a website I should say at this point? EdenAid. EdenAid okay so that's how people can read a bit more but yes people behind the scenes. People behind the scenes we're not the only ones doing something but if all of us can just do something, it's such a huge help because this is a massive crisis. And we're going to bring back 28 refugees. There are hundreds and hundreds of thousands. We have a huge waiting list. And I was going to say, with those refugees,

again, interest on that. How has that come about, Suzanne? So there's a fantastic woman called Olga who helps us find the people. They're all ready with their paperwork. They all have host families to come back to. In Poland, this is when you pick up? Yes, in Poland or Germany.

And we bring them back to their host. So that's all been sorted in advance? That's all been sorted. And we find out on the way out who's ready to come back. And we're given a list when we arrive and we drive. I naively thought we would go to one place and pick all the people up but actually we drive to warsaw berlin however to lots of different refugee centers and collect them on the way back to calais i always like details where do you sleep

on the way where do you go to the loo what's the plan so we um have one overnight sleep we set we set off tuesday lunchtime we get to the border Wednesday evening we stay Wednesday night at some hotel so not sleeping on the minibus we sleep every two hours we're meant to sleep we swap drivers every two hours and in our two hours off

we are meant to sleep you're meant to sleep it's not very easy to sleep on the way back when you've got a minibus full of very vulnerable women and children you know i was reading yesterday a lovely lovely portrait piece if i can say but very sad piece in the um new yorker magazine about women and children and some of the journeys that they've made and in it it said

the ukrainians love their cats uh this very strong bond with their pets and and you will be bringing some animals in fact one of my hairiest moments was when we lost Jessica the cat in Berlin Airport at three o'clock in the morning. That wasn't very relaxing. We found her, don't worry. She's safely back in the UK. We brought back actually 29 cats and 43 dogs, as well as 267 women and children.

Wow, that's certainly some roll call in that respect. And I think just coming back to what you said, Barbara, as well, I was interviewing David Miliband, the president of the International Rescue Committee, the charity, the other day, and he said about this war, if it's done anything, it has, even though there's been many other things since World War II, many other conflicts still going on now,

it has, for a lot of people, brought home again what it is to be displaced, and that's what they've connected to. It has made me realise that we are so lucky that we have lived most of us through an era where we haven't been displaced. And when I looked at the map to work out the journey about basically how we're going to get there, and I'm not the best navigator, I was really struck by how close Ukraine is. This isn't some distant war where people that we don't understand are being displaced. Suzanne and I will be at that border within a day. These are our people, our neighbours, they could be you and me. Yes, I mean, it's a very striking image. Some have also talked about that.

But also some said, you know, we need to do better at empathy because what's going on in Afghanistan, yes, it's not as close. Yes, you can't get there, is something that should relate. We should relate to as people as well and other conflicts too. But I think there is something specific about,

of course, it being on the continent where we live. Barbara Wants, Suzanne Pullin, thank you very much for coming in. Good luck with the drive, the navigating. Can I please make one final plea for nine-seater minibuses? Right. There you go.

Thank you. Which take cats as well as dogs and everyone else. Suzanne, Pauline, Barbara, thank you. Many messages about all women's teams.

One here, we have a women's band, women-only band, Serenlas, Welsh for blue star. We are two singers with me on electric bass, bass rather,

I should say. We can script the odd male guitarist, that's but we pull the strings says Boffin my nickname. With 15 other fabulous female friends we've entered the Woking Hospice dragon boat race three times despite having no dragon boat experience we've had lots of fun raising money for a wonderful local charity. Emma says I'm an early years teacher it's always been an all-female crew for me in inverted commas and this is very moving.. It's always been an all-female crew for me, in inverted commas. And this is very moving. My husband's funeral was an all-female affair in July 2020,

which he would have loved. I'm Yvonne. There's not so many of them around me, but the lady who made the floral tribute in the registrar were both called Yvonne as well. Judy was our funeral director, Elizabeth the minister. We had a socially distanced outdoor service, just some memories of that, with the burial. We had a socially distanced outdoor service, just some memories of that with the burial.

And it was beautiful and uplifting. Thank you, ladies, says Yvonne. Keep those messages about an all female crew. Do keep them coming in on 84844. Now, once a mother, always a mother. That is the focus of my next two guests who have written their respective books about something we can all relate to, regardless of whether we are parents, adult children. We have been them, we are them,

and while there are countless parenting books about young children, and perhaps teenagers of course, the focus on how to parent and connect to adult children is less so. Celia Dodd with her book All Grown Up, Nurturing Relationships with Adult Children, and Annette Byford with hers, Wants a Up, Nurturing Relationships with Adult Children and Annette Byford with hers Once a Mother, Always a Mother on Life with Adult Children hope to

redress this. Annette, I thought I'd start with you. What made you want to write about this? Morning Emma. Two things really. I mean, one is my personal experience of being a mother of two adult children. They're both in their early 30s and it's been quite an interesting transition to get there. I found it a lot more challenging than, to be honest, I was really prepared for when they were little. The other motivation comes from my work. I'm a psychotherapist and I've always been interested in transitions in people's lives. Becoming a parent, getting married, getting older, children growing up, retirement, all these things are, I think, quite challenging because they make us look back. We have to give up something and we also have to adjust to a new situation.

And that isn't always easy. So those were the sort of two things that made me interested. And Celia, I know this has been a theme as well, and we've discussed it on the programme, people staying children for longer or not. I mean, you know, people staying at home for longer and you have, you know, the children with you, especially during lockdown perhaps, but no control.

Yeah. What do you make of that? Well, I don't know about no control. That's how some feel. Yes, certainly children, What do you make of that? Well, I don't know about no control. That's how some feel. Yes, certainly children, it takes them a lot longer to kind of grow up and to be launched in a way these days. And there's all kinds of reasons, the lockdown, but also financial reasons. But I think also adult children now are more willing to take support from their parents. I think it's a much more,

you know, we left home and we never looked back kind of thing, didn't want our parents support. And I think it's much more acceptable now. It's what everybody does. And I think it's really positive. I think kids need their parents support. And I think they do better. A lot of research shows that with parental support, they do, you know, they do better with the right kind of support. I mean, I don't do better with the right kind of support. I mean, I don't mean you want to be kind of mollycoddling them, but giving them support kind of at a distance. And even when you're under the same roof. And I mean, I suppose, do you do you have a view now on I mean, there'll be different ages.

But when you've looked at this through the ages, are there any advice you could give to those perhaps who are trying to deal with those who are in their 20s children in their 20s now um well i think that the main thing is to to stand back and let them get on with their lives as much as you possibly can um i think parents can be feel quite disappointed if that you know when they feel their influence is waning but that's inevitable you know your influence wanes children do things that you disapprove of you do things that your children disapprove of as well so there's always there's going to be conflict but I think just be ready for the next thing because it goes it changes all the time the relationship from the 20s into the 30s you know you've got to be ready for the next thing the next thing they're going to do and parents got to be very adaptable and flexible but but i think some parents feel they they should have still more influence especially if they've given money

what did your well i think yeah you yeah i think it's difficult because whenever you give money you feel that there are strings attached and again there was some research by birmingham university which showed that parents you know know, do expect, you know, they give money. It's sort of odd, but to promote independence, if you like, you give money, you know, to contribute to driving lessons or whatever it happens to be. And so, yeah, I think I think you have. But in some ways you want something for your money. But at the same time, you have to stand back. You know, if you give money, it's, you know, it's for them to do.

It's a gift. Or maybe it's not. Maybe it's a loan. Annette, another transition, of course, is when a long term partner comes into the mix and how they work with the family dynamics as adults. What do you have to say about that in your writing? Well, if I could just go back to something that Celia just said, I very much agree with you, this task of having to step back. And that becomes very visible when new partners come into the family, because of course, it isn't your choice, it shouldn't be your choice.

But it is quite possible that your child brings in a partner who doesn't fit perfectly the family culture, you know, they may not be the that that you would have expected to be there as part of your family life but as you said you have to step back and to understand that you are in the in the second row of support for this which is not always easy no and you also write about in your book about the attitudes and the expectations towards daughter-in-laws and mother-in-laws being different from the male roles? That is so peculiar and it came through in all my interviews. What I was very struck by is that many women said, many mothers said, they get on really well with their sons-in-law. When you dig a little bit, you realise they hardly see him. So the daughter may come home with the grandchildren, the son-in-law isn't there.

That's fine. If a daughter-in-law did the same thing, the mother would be quite hurt and would find that cold and rejecting. So I think mothers-in-law judge their daughters-in-law in quite a different way. They're very, very different expectations. And the narrative has been, certainly in popular popular culture shaped a lot about the jokes about the mother-in-law from the male perspective or vice versa. Yes. In that way yes it has been. The grandparent you picked up on you mentioned there about the child side of things again another area to think about as still parenting. I mean you can argue having you know relatively recently had a child he's four now. You cease to be important anymore to your parents, which probably is the right order. But it augments the relationship.

I mean, not cease, but the point is there's another focus. Yeah, there is another focus. Although I have to say there is something amazing about seeing your child, your baby, have a baby. I mean, it's unbelievable. Keith Richards said something about that. And so, yeah. I wasn't expecting you to quote Keith Richards in this interview, but there we go. So, yes, it adds a whole new dimension. And I think in lots of ways, I found it strengthens the relationship with your child. I mean, you may think you're being ignored, but it changes. It really changes it.

And, you know, there's a new respect, I think, both ways. I hope that, you know, my kids can see what I went through to bring them up. And at the same time, I feel that I when they were when the kids were first born, that, you know, you see all the things that that could be a lie ahead so when your child is thrilled to have this new baby as a grandparent you're thinking oh my goodness all the trips to casualty all the kind of um you know adolescent terrible things that happen and you know you're so you've got this extra awareness as a grandparent which makes you sympathize with your child or empathize with your child as well as being thrilled to have a lovely grandchild. Yes.

I mean, that's if it's all going well, of course. This all sounds like very reasonable. And I meant generally, of course, some people really struggle, of course, with their adult relationships with parents. Having written both of these books, respectively, Annette, I'll go back to you on this. You know, do you look at yourself as an adult child and think you did a good job? Well, it has made me think about that quite a bit because, of course, my mother is dead now, so I can't really ask her about that anymore. I suspect that I was a lot more self-centred and a lot more looking at things from my own perspective only than I was aware of at the time. And I wish I had a chance to do some of these things differently. Really?

And she wouldn't have talked to me about it, perhaps in a way that I have conversations with my own daughter now. I think our generation has more of an expectation of personal conversations, of more disclosing communications. What generation are you talking about for the purposes of our listeners? What age group? My children are in their 30s. Okay.

And so, you know, that is the expectation. So people of your age in the 60s and 70s relating. My mother wouldn't have had that expectation. Celia, were you a good adult child? No, terrible. I was really bad, actually. Did you write this book out of guilt yeah totally no it really made me reflect on because obviously i think about what my mum was like when i was in my 30s and i you know had little children or whatever or

indeed when i left home and it makes me feel terrible it may i just completely took her for granted but it's very illuminating to think, to then think, well, what to put myself in that, you know, my children's position. And so it kind of helps me to understand much more about what the expectations between us and what it's like for them. I think it's really important to put myself in their shoes as it is now, not, you know, oh, what it was like, you know, what it was like when I left home, but what it's like for them now. And I now, not, you know, oh, what it was like, you know, what it was like when I left home, but what it's like for them now. And I think, yeah, thinking about my relationship with my mum,

yeah, it does make me feel really sad that I wasn't the better adult child, but I think it's useful, but I think it's helpful. Well, I don't want you to speak for either of them, but I'm sure they would also, if they could, have something to say that would make you feel, as parents, less bad perhaps. But it's a very interesting theme to think about.

Thank you for coming to talk about it. Celia Dodd with her book, All Grown Up, Nurturing Relationships with Adult Children. And Annette Byford with hers, Once a Mother, Always a Mother on Life with Adult Children. So I hope that gives you some food for thought. One message just popped in, which says you're only ever as happy as your least happy child, whatever their age, which we're having some sage nods in the studio to. Now, tomorrow, the women's Euros will begin. 2022 looks to be a huge year for the women's game. As we discussed yesterday on the programme, I loved your messages about this. To some, I hope to return shortly.

But as an exhibition called Goal Power at Brighton Museum points out, we talked a little about this yesterday, girls and women have always played football and loved it, despite the Football Association's 1921 ban on women playing. Charlotte Pertz spoke to some of the women who were instrumental in the women's game. June Jaycox was a member of the original team of telephonists from the General Post Office in the 60s that became the Brighton and Hove Albion women's team. She went on to become club secretary and then chair of the newly formed Sussex League she was instrumental in creating. Later, she was international officer

for the Women's Football Association. Eileen Bourne played with June but came in a few years later. She went on to become an assistant coach. You'll hear from June and Eileen shortly. But first, Julie Hemsley, scouted by both June and Eileen, who brought in, who was brought her in, excuse me, as a 14

year old. Julie went on to play for England and having played and later coached at Brighton and Hove Albion, she was a trailblazer. First woman on the FA Council in 130 years and didn't know what it meant really so you know we got went to a meeting in Stoke stood up and said what would you feel you could do for the development of the women's game a couple of other people were there and they obviously liked what I said. So I got voted in and I thought, great, alright, somebody else has done this before, been a guy for women's football, I'll just follow their shoes. Got sent up to London, got a nice blazer, three lines on it, I felt very proud. They introduced, you all meet, you

congregate, you sit down, then they introduce the new counsellors. They come to me, Julie Hemsley, Women and Girls Football, and before anybody could do anything, everybody stood up and literally clapped and cheered, about time, whoa! And I'm like, oh, I better compose myself here because this could, I don't want to be seen as a crier. And I was just so overwhelmed. And I thought, oh, what have I got myself into here? It was like Aladdin's cave. I mean, the resources, the interest, my work ethic's always been good.

I don't want to let someone down because I'm doing this. So, yeah, my family sacrificed a lot because I just never had any time. And even my friends, you know, like, she's never got time. Don't ask her to go anywhere. A couple of stories for you. I went to a ground. I was on the FA Youth Cup committee, and I went to a ground.

I'm not saying which one. And at halftime, the councillors were going in the director's room. Okay, so I went to go in the room and he stopped me the doorman you're not allowed in there no ladies so I'm like well he's just doing his job all right so I went in with the wives and they said oh come and join us and then it wasn't until it was noticed that I wasn't in with the other council members that somebody went looking for me and said, no, you're allowed anywhere in any ground. So it changed because it had to. Just by being there, just by being a presence.

And same as gifts. When I was given a gift, it was ties. Well, they were cool ties and my uncle loves them, you know. And if I wanted to wear a tie I'd love it because you know it's got football in it and cufflinks because that's they only had things for guys did that change yeah scarves and pens yeah of course it changed but it wasn't a case of we did this on purpose it's a case of we never thought about it so just by being that woman in that environment changed the environment but not by me banging a drum saying well why

haven't you got this well why haven't you got that it was natural well what we're going to do about this because we want Julie here so they did I mean footballs football but women's football's different. Back in the day, it was shorter time, smaller ball, and it suited the game. And then, of course, now we've got athletes that can run forever. I mean, it's just fantastic. That was always my dream.

And I even had international players, females, saying it was never going to happen, Jules. Never going to happen. And I'd like to be in the room now with them and say, remember what I told you? Because I'm sorry, but this is amazing. My name's Eileen Bourne. In primary school, we had playgrounds for boys and girls, and the boys weren't allowed in the girls' playground,

but the girls were allowed in the boys' playground. And that was good because the boys played much better games. I wasn't much into the skipping and things, you know. Down there they might play British Bulldog, you know, get from one end of the playground to the other without being tagged or if somebody had a tennis ball we'd have a game of football. I was probably more like a little boy then because they had the most fun. I had a cowboy hat and a holster and a gun and we used to play in the parks around our houses where we lived. I remember always being interested in football. I did get detention for kicking one of the net balls around once which obviously wasn't the thing to do but I then got into football because my friend Alison, she had a relative and she told Alison that the telephonists had formed a football

team and perhaps we should go along. So we did. We turned up to one of their training sessions. The coaching was done by Roy Brown. He was a professional goalkeeper with Tottenham. He took the training session. I volunteered to go in goal. And of course, I was prepared to dive around a bit in those days.

And I think he was really pleased. We didn't have any other women's teams to play against. We played against the over 50s postmen. We played against a pub team, charity games. People would say, can we get those girls to come and play a charity match? And so we would do that. A league was formed and rules and everything made for it. And that was the first organised football. And I suppose I probably still didn't know that it was banned, just that we had to find our own pitches and our own officials. And at some stage, I guess I became aware that it was banned by the FA. But that didn't make a practical difference to us.

It wasn't like you were committing a crime. It's just that you couldn't use their facilities, the pitches or the referees. When I started working in the bank, there was a pay scale for men and a pay scale for women. You're doing the same job, but the men's wages are listed here and the women's wages are listed here that's just how it was and I think I would have just thought well that's that's how it is it didn't occur to me that it wasn't fair or anything at all because I was getting what I wanted I was actually playing football you know whereas when I was a young girl I'd be dreaming of being a footballer but I'd be putting myself in one of the men's teams like I'm in the cup final at Wembley and it's I'm playing for Tottenham up front and I'm going to score the

winning goal real dreams which little girls can have now and fulfill whereas for me it was never going to be anything except a dream it didn't occur to me that it wasn't fair you know I was playing and I was a lot of friends I'm having a. No problem. I used to play netball for the general post office team. And the postman challenged us to a match. And we said that we would play against them if they played a netball match against us. And it was going to be for charity. Okay.

And we borrowed boots we had these great big shorts and the post office social club lent us a strip of shirts but we had our own shorts all different shapes and sizes and it was such fun we had such a laugh and the post from were brilliant because we haven't got a clue but at that time one of our girls was going out with the goalkeeper from Brighton so he sort of did give us a little bit of training but I think he thought to himself well you know this isn't going to be very successful but at least it gave us an idea nobody knew that or thought that girls should play football and the thing is you see we couldn't use official referees

so it used to be fathers or brothers or anybody that used to come and watch us we sort of took anybody to be quite honest as long as we got a referee but we were very lucky because we did have support people did support us and and we didn't really mind that people didn't want us to play because we were just enjoying ourselves and we weren't doing any harm we were enjoying ourselves and and we had a lot of youngsters come along so you know they were enjoying it and it was healthy and as long as we're not going against any rules and regulations you know we just carried on we were eventually able to use referees and um and i used to go to the meetings there were one or two men at the fa the older men they were stuck in their ways and they didn't really think that we should play football,

which is fair enough, that's up to them. But we did have friends in the FA that were very kind to us. If we were invited to a match or anything, we always spoke to the wives, because if you got on the side of the wives and got them to present a cup or something, you know, and they said, well, yes, you should play football, you should play football, you know.

Sometimes you've got to be a little bit crafty. I mean, I know people say that the FA didn't help, and of course it took a long time coming, but it was a federation that had been going for years and years and years, and it was only men. So it's not just going to change like that, is it? And what a journey women's football has been on with those women at one of the parts of it

that needed trailblazing, you could argue, many before and many now to come, it seems. And Charlotte Pett's with that report. Yesterday, I did ask you all about this. Amazing messages came in. One that said, I'm 66. I've loved football all my life. Played as a young person.

Born too soon for a career. However, I've not taken much notice of the women's game, but I watched it last week. They were so much better than the men's presently, and I'm looking forward to it now. So getting ready for tomorrow evening for kickoff for the England women's football team in 1972, who said she hasn't been awarded her official caps because the FA would not recognise the women's game at that time. As promised, we are working on trying to figure out why this is the case and we'll keep you posted here on Woman's Hour. But for now, let's turn our attention to a report. There are 1.8 million lone parent families in Britain raising 3.1 million children and half of these children are living in poverty. A new report posits that a decade of cuts to benefits has left single parents, mostly mothers,

unable to cope with the rising prices of food, heating and childcare. I have the co-author of that report on the line, Xiaowei Xu, a senior research economist at the Institute for Fiscal Studies. And I'm also joined by Victoria Benson, chief executive of Gingerbread, the charity for single parent families. Xiaowei Xu, welcome to the programme. The report talks there, as I mentioned, about relative poverty. First of all, what does that mean? Hi Emma, thanks for having me. So relative poverty, so a person is considered to be in

relative poverty if their household income falls below 60% of average incomes in that year. So a person is considered to be in relative poverty if their household income falls below 60% of average incomes in that year. So it's a relative measure comparing someone to how the rest of the population is doing. For a lone parent with two kids in 2019, which is the data we look to, that's approximately £15,000 a year after deducting housing costs. And in terms of your report and the main findings, what do you wish to share with people? So you already stressed the fact that nearly half of kids growing up in single families were in relative poverty in 2019. That's really noteworthy because it's double the rate of child poverty for two-parent families. But I think an even more worrying finding is that actually the child poverty rate among single-parent families has been increasing in recent years. So the share of children growing up in single-parent families who were in relative poverty raised from 40% in 2010 to nearly 50% in 2019.

That's a massive increase. Have we seen that sort of increase before with however long we've been measuring this sort of thing? So actually, it's really quite striking because in the decade before that, so in the late 90s and the early 2000s, what we saw was a massive decrease in relative poverty among low-income parent families. So that fell from more than 50% to the 40% in 2010. What's happened in the most recent decade is really an undoing of all that progress. And I think what's particularly striking is that this has happened despite a big rise in employment among single parent families. Let me bring in Victoria if I can at this point,

the Executive of Gingerbread, the charity for single parent families. Victoria, good morning. Hello. What do you put this down to? Well, it's a combination of factors. Many single parents, and as the previous speaker said, close to 70% are working, but they're trapped in low-paid employment.

And they have to balance their books with just one income. Cost of childcare is really high. Cost of food is really high. Housing is really high. Many are reliant on benefits. So 75% of single parents are currently on universal credit, and we're expecting that to go up to 90%. So 70% are in work and 75% are on universal credit? Yes. And, you know, because they're juggling caring and working, they're often forced to take lower paid jobs in insecure sectors.

So, for example, hospitality and retail. And so they're earning not very much. And, you know, it's one income that's that's managing their household so with the crossover of the benefit reliance and being in work that's to top up wages and what they they qualify and of course uh there's been i'm sure you have something to say on this but commentary around the government support the levels it's at the changes in that a government spokesperson said we recognize people are struggling with rising prices, which is why we are protecting the 8 million most vulnerable families with at least £1,200 of direct payments this year.

We've made changes so people on universal credit keep £1,000 more of what they earn. And in April, we significantly increased the national living wage to £9.50, the largest ever rise. Victoria, has any of that helped? It helps a little bit, but it's also balanced out by the fact that, for example, benefits didn't increase by the rate of inflation in April, that single parents lost the £20 a week uplift last year. And of course, they're facing increasingly high prices. You know, food,

housing, fuel and childcare, they've all increased in price massively. Has the pandemic affected things as well? Yes. So this isn't new for single parents. We saw price rises and an increase in costs at the start of the pandemic. And many lost their jobs as well because they are in the insecure sectors. So this has been going on since the beginning of 2020. And it's just at the next stage. But, you know, people are reaching breaking point now. I mentioned some of what the government say it's done and is doing. What else are you hearing from people who call your hotlines that they need?

Well, they simply don't have enough money week to week. And what they need is an additional income so that they can afford to buy the very basics and the best way to do that would be through the universal credit system. There are other ways other things the government could do. Because work isn't paying for these individuals because that's obviously the pushback one of the pushbacks from the government will be we want people to come off these sorts of benefits but those two don't work. No, so single parents want to work, but because they are caring and because of the costs of childcare, they need to take jobs which are often lower paid. If the government, you know, they often need to work part-time,

so the government says that flexible working is on the increase. Well, in fact, part-time working isn't, and that's what single parents need. And with the single parents, just in terms of, I know I asked, shall I say, about the definitions here of relative poverty, but just in your instance with gingerbread, when you talk about single parents, does that mean those who have no support

from the other parent? How does that work in terms of, I don't know, extra care or finances, or you don't distinguish like that? Well, we don't distinguish, but in our experience, most of the single parents who come to us don't know, extra care or finances or you don't distinguish like that? Well, we don't distinguish. But in our experience, most of the single parents who come to us don't have much support. But often the other parent is also struggling and they're also on a low income. Because that's worth, I suppose, saying because, you know, we wonder.

I mean, the primary caring duties, who lives with the child is an important picture to paint. But if you're also hearing a bit about the partner, that's interesting, or the former partner, I should say. Yes, I mean, sometimes the partner is supporting as well, but it's just not enough. If they're on universal credit too, and they can only afford the minimum child maintenance, which is £7 a week, that helps, but it's not always enough to provide anything more than the basics.

Victoria Benson, Chief Executive of Gingerbread, I'm sure we'll come back to this. Thank you. And Xiaowei Xu, a Senior Research Economist at the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Thank you to you for your company today and your many messages. Someone's very outraged that you messaged in,

one of you, about you're only as happy as your least happy child. Don't put that on children. Find your own happiness. There you go. Another view. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one i'm sarah trelevan and for over a year i've been working on one of the most complex stories i've ever covered there was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies i started like warning everybody every doula that i know it was fake no pregnancy and the deeper i dig the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.