Woman's Hour - Allergy training, A Woman of Substance, Ramadan & 'sandwich generation', Model Charli Howard

Episode Date: March 5, 2026

Schools in England must provide allergy awareness training for all staff for the first time, under new statutory guidance announced by the Department for Education today. From September, all schools will be required to stock auto-injectors - those pen-like needles that quickly deliver a dose of adrenaline. Anita Rani is joined by Tanya Ednan-Laperouse, whose daughter Natasha died in 2016 of a severe allergic reaction after eating a baguette containing sesame seeds - an ingredient not listed on the packaging's label. Tanya is co-founder of the Natasha Allergy Research Foundation to fund research to eradicate allergies. Ramadan is a time for reflection, spirituality, worship and mindfulness. But many women who are part of the 'sandwich generation' may feel that they are up against the clock. Juggling caring for young children and elderly parents, while also trying to find the time to fuel their bodies and their minds. Anita is joined by Shelina Janmohamed, an author and podcaster and Tabassum Niamat, a mother and community activist, who both think of themselves as sandwich-generation carers.Breasts, skin, stomach, thighs; Model, author and activist Charli Howard says she has always been treated like a sex object. But in a new book of essays called Flesh Charli is reclaiming her body for herself, piece by piece. She joins Anita to discuss how she believes sexualisation and misogyny has impacted the way women view themselves across time, why she likes to share ‘real’ images online and what the true meaning of empowering really is.Barbara Taylor Bradford's novel A Woman of Substance sold more than 32 million copies and has never been out of print since it was first published in 1979. Its original 1985 television adaptation became Channel 4’s highest-rating drama, drawing almost 14 million viewers for its final episode. Now, more than four decades later, the epic saga of ambition, betrayal and revenge is back on our screens. Anita is joined by Jessica Reynolds who plays Emma Harte and the writer of the series, Katherine Jakeways in this new version of the story which follows the character Emma Harte in a rags-to-riches tale of class struggle, gender politics and unrelenting drive.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

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your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today. Women's Hour with Anita Rani. Good morning and welcome to the program. Now, in some way, shape or form, women are often treated as a sex object. Model and activist Charlie Howard

explores this in her new book. It's called Flesh. She's going to be here talking to us about it. And a woman of substance, the multi-million selling book from Barbara Taylor Bradford, some of you may remember watching the TV series in the 80s, while it's been remade for Channel 4. It tells the story of Emma Hart,

who starts life as a housemaid for an aristocratic family, but a sequence of events, her mother telling her on her deathbed to get out and get on, and her telling herself that she will make sure she makes something of herself, well, spoiler alert, she becomes a very successful and powerful woman whose life we see through memory and flashback. But this morning I'd like to hear from you.

If you have exceeded expectations in your life, were you the first to go to university, go to art college, leave your hometown, build a business, achieve something no one thought you would. Entered a world where there's hardly anyone like you. I would love for you to tell me your story today, in a short paragraph, if you could,

who encouraged you? And when you look back, how do you feel about your journey now? Get in touch with us in the usual way. The text number 84844. You can email the program by going to our website and the WhatsApp number is 0300-100-444. And are you a part of the sandwich-generational women who have the double responsibility of caring for children and parents.

Well, what if you're Muslim and also observing Ramadan? How are you balancing the juggle right now? We'll be speaking to two women who are doing just that. And of course, your thoughts and opinions welcome on anything and everything we talk about on the program. As usual, that text number once again 84844. But first, schools in England must provide allergy awareness training for all staff for the first time under new statutory guidance announced by the Department for Education today. From September, all schools under the statutory guidance will be required to stock auto-injectors,

those pen-like needles that quickly deliver a dose of adrenaline. Well, I'm joined now by Tanya Ednaz Lapparos, whose daughter Natasha died in 2016 of a severe allergic reaction after eating a baguette containing sesame seeds, an ingredient not listed on the packaging's label. Well, Tanya is co-founded. of the Natasha Allergy Research Foundation to fund research to eradicate allergies. Natasha, thank you for coming in this morning to speak to us. It's nice to have you here. I'm going to start by getting your opinion on this new announcement.

I'm sure you welcome the latest consultation from the Department of Education. Absolutely. We really welcome it. It's something that's been a long time coming. And what's sad about this is that it took the death of a young child of five years. year old boy in school who was accidentally given the wrong milk to really start the campaigning for this by his family. But as we know from tragedy, we can do incredible things. And so today is really a day of celebration. Talk me through what's being offered. So the guidance is in draft form at the moment. And the public consultation has actually just come out today at 10 o'clock, which

means teachers, families, students will be able to go onto that and actually explain what they would like to see in this guidance. However, we do know what will be mandatory is that every school will have to have a specific allergy policy. They will need to give training to their staff, allergy training, and they will need to provide spare auto-injectors on site as well. Were you consulted? Well, we consulted. We've worked with a group called the National allergy strategy group. So our charity has supported that along with other charities and organisations to get to the point where it really mattered and where we think the draft, we feel the draft guidance is really good. It just needs to be tweaked now and then set to become mandatory

in September. What would you tweak? What would I tweak? I think it's just length. I think from what I've heard, I don't know this is where the government will set in. But just it just needs to be as clear. You know, schools have a lot on their plates. We understand that. But this is actually going to help schools because we know that there are approximately two children now with diagnosed food allergies in every class in every school.

And some of these children don't just have one food allergy. They've got multiple food allergies. So we also know from our own research that 67% of teachers have had absolutely no training in allergy and don't know how to use an auto. injector, which is when you think about they're responsible for these children with allergies and when something goes wrong, they're not prepared to actually, they don't know how to look after them and what to do in an emergency.

As you just mentioned there, you know this from your own research because you've done surveys with teachers and parents and you set up an allergy school a year ago to offer help to teachers to create safe environments for children. Why did you feel this was needed? After Natasha's Inquest, which was in 2018, the following year we started. the charity and we were absolutely inundated with families telling us how dangerous their schools were for their children. So this was back in 2019. Parents were actually having to teach the teachers themselves what to do and how to look after their children and accidents of course still happened

and children were hospitalised. So with our own experience of Natasha in school, which wasn't great, we understood that something needs to be done. And so we wanted to make sure that it was something that was positive for schools. It had cut through, but it would be something that they could actually take on because we know how time poor schools are. So we don't want to just land them with something at the time. Right, this is how you look after your children, give them a whole list of things they have to do.

But it's a real sort of 360 school approach. We actually, we've got lesson plans and wonderful resources for the children themselves to understand allergies, how to look after their friends. And we've got free training through an organisation, called High Speed Training, which is free for all school staff, teaching them all about anaphylaxis and allergy and what to do in emergency. It's a whole suite and we've expanded it and it's not just primary schools. It's out-of-school settings, secondary schools. We're

working with colleges and universities. So it's, what's wonderful for us is that this guidance has come a year after we started allergy school. 22,000 educators have engaged with it since last February. Yeah, what have the, what have teachers been telling you? What's their reaction to? It's so needed. Yeah. It's so needed. But what's so important is that it's free. And as a charity, that's always been our mission. So the site of schools are interested is allergy school.org.org.com. They literally sign in and they are free to roam and take out all the resources that they will need. I feel we should talk about Natasha. I'd like to know a bit more about her. My favourite topic to talk about. Brilliant. Still, Natasha always.

So when I think about schools in Natasha, so Natasha had multiple food allergies, milk, egg and sesame were her severe allergies. And I'm sure a lot of you as will remember the inquest. She passed away on a plane. The sesame seeds were baked into the dough of the bread. You couldn't see them. They weren't sprinkled on the top like you would see on above. And there was nothing on the sandwich either to say anything.

No, no, not all. Because actually, that was in Pretamonje, but Prettamonje weren't breaking the law at that time. If you made a sandwich on site and packaged it, you didn't have to put all the ingredients. You could just choose what you wanted to say on a food label ingredient if you had one at all. And really, it was just, you know, for us losing her the way we did. And we thought we were really rare with her allergies. We didn't know other families that had children with allergies. And of course, after Natasha's inquest, we started hearing from all these families

that were telling us what's happened to you is our worst nightmare. And we just thought we've got to do something. We'd already been given a springboard, you know, through the inquest. We were campaigning for Natasha's law, and that was passed through Parliament in 2019. And Natasha's law states that if any food is made on site and packaged in closed packaging, it has to include all the ingredients and the allergens. And so, you know, for us it was really how can we make sure that this doesn't happen to other families. And so that's why we started the charity.

But just sort of thinking about, you know, this consultation and why it's so important, I remember an instance with Natasha, she just started school. She was in reception. She was five and they went on a school trip. And I'd been explaining about her food allergies. And honestly, it was just hitting deaf ears. just thought I was a neurotic helicopter parent and not really taking much notice. And I asked if I could go on the school trip as well.

And I was told, no, we've got full quote of parents. Absolutely not. Sorry, we can't get you on the bus. No. So they all had pet lunches. And Natasha, well, I got a call in the afternoon from the school. You didn't tell us that she's allergic to monkeys. And I said, well, I don't know that she's up.

Why, what's happened? They said, a whole face is swollen. I said, can she breathe? So breathing, okay. They said yes, her breathing is fine. And they were on their way back and for me to meet them at the school, which I did, I was there waiting

and we went straight to A&E. But what was interesting, what had happened in the school, a parent had accidentally put her daughter's milk into Natasha's school back. And when they all sat down to eat and had food was given to her and this drink, she knew it wasn't hers. She was five and she knew it wasn't hers.

And the teacher said, well you have to drink it. And she said she had to pretend to drink it. So luckily she didn't swallow. It just touched her lips and hence that reaction. It wasn't anaphylaxis. But it was still a serious reaction. And that was when she was fine. She was fine. I've been reading about Natasha all morning and looking at photographs of your beautiful daughter. How old was she when she had her first reaction? When did you first realise? Six months old. What happened? Six months old. She had an allergic reaction. I gave her a tiny bit of banana. Sorry, that's the other allergen. But I didn't.

never think of that one because it just never came into our house. We'd ever touch banana. I still can't eat them to this day. Tiny bit on her lips. We were on holiday and her lips just swelled up, bright red, blue lighted to hospital. And she survived it. They couldn't find a vein to give her adrenaline because she was so tiny. And I was so worried about weaning her onto dairy and I asked our doctor, is her chance she could be allergic to cow's milk? And we were told, no, very unlikely. She'll be fine. Don't worry. You're a first time mum, it's just natural that you have these concerns. I just had that gut instinct.

And of course, you do. What I did is my doctor recommended. And then she had her next anaphytic reaction, just as serious as the first one. And I think, you know, going back, you know, Natasha, it's 10 years this year since she passed away. But so many of the issues that we dealt with and we had to live through, people are living through them now. And so this guidance with schools is so important because we do need to keep moving forward. So how did you navigate life with Natasha?

Because there were incidents after incidents and then she had a long period where you were managing it and she was managing it, the oldest she got. But just how did you cope as a family? Everything changes. Your whole way of living changes. So for instance, you get an invitation to go to Friends for lunch. we would have to ask so many questions

if they'd eaten something like pizza the day before and hadn't opened the windows, she had airborne allergies to dairy. She could actually have a really severe asthma attack that could hospitalise her because of the milk proteins in the air. So there were so many things that we had to navigate. Just going to the playground.

One day she played with a little girl and next thing we looked at Natasha, her eyes had swelled. She couldn't close them. Little girl had been eating ice cream. We found out on the way there as children do. They were playing, holding hands. She rubbed her eye and next, we were in A&E.

But parents do learn, I think in the beginning, and depending on when you become allergic, or you have a child with food allergies and it gets diagnosed or they have their first reaction, at first it's terrifying. But you do learn how to navigate your world. You do. But you have to, you become a complete control freak

about everything around you because you just don't know where an invisible allergen could accidentally come from and put you in danger or your child in danger. So how did you kind of get to the point where, I mean, your daughter was talented, great artist. She was amazing. She was just on it. She understood from when she was so little about her allergies from the age of two.

Yeah. She really knew. Well, she knew the milk bottle wasn't hers. Yes. Yeah. Five. But even before, she knew not to take any food from anybody that wasn't either myself or her father. She wouldn't accept.

it from anyone else. She always had to ask. And she was just really brave. I think food was really important in our house. I really made food exciting. So we would cook lots of delicious food. She had a great appetite, like roast chicken and all the trimmings was her favourite. But there were loads of other dishes. So she didn't miss out. We really tried to make sure that she could enjoy food. So it wasn't a pure enemy because it's very difficult for children understanding food is to live

and to eat and to enjoy, but food could also be really dangerous to me. And it's a fine balance with children. You don't want them to be scared, but you want them to be careful. And I'm sure, as well as having to understand what was happening with your daughter and protect her, you're also understanding what are allergies, where is it coming from? What research has done into any of this? And so little is known still. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And then she was on a plane with your husband when she had her facial reaction to that. baguette. Can you tilt us through what happened? So it was the first time we kind of split up for a holiday. It was the first, they'd broken up from school on the Friday. It was a Sunday, first weekend of the holidays. And my husband was taking her and her best friend Bethany for a short four-day trip to South France, where we'd been many times. And she just wanted to show Bethany all the places that she loved and enjoyed. And And, you know, there were 15. It was, and my husband was literally going to be the chaperone and the chauffeur for that trip.

I stayed in London with Natasha's younger brother, Alex, and we had stuff planned for him. And I'd drop them off at Heathrow Airport that morning at 6 o'clock, and I went home. And I got a call what seemed like in no time. It was, you know, three hours later. Tanya and Natasha's really ill. You've got to get a flight. You've got to come out. something's happened

but I just didn't comprehend and what do you mean she's really ill? What's happened? It wasn't really clear at the time but you know the urgency in his voice

he couldn't give me more details I just got myself I managed to get a seat on a flight and I found out she passed away at the airport so my plane was supposed to take off at 6 o'clock

that evening but it was delayed by six hours. And I got a call from my husband while I was waiting in the gate and he said, I've put her phone by her ear and you need to say goodbye. And I just told her I loved her. How did you say goodbye?

On the phone, she was, you know, on life support. And her heart stopped seconds later. So I literally I got the flight out there And knew she'd already passed away Bethany and had already back at the apartment Having had to leave her We said it's the hardest thing he's ever had to do In his life leave her in the hospital in France

But our responsibility was also to look after Bethany She was only 14 You had to spend with you Yeah and so we had to really make sure that You know the next day we had to make sure that we could get her back home okay and her parents were waiting for her and then all the bureaucracy in France of trying to bring her home,

which we did a week later, Natasha home. I'm so sorry, thank you for sharing that with us and I know it's not easy and it will never be easy. But since then your husband, Nadim and yourself, you co-founded Natasha's foundation. And on your website, he says, I was not able to help my child,

but I am determined that I will strive to help others through this foundation, which we have set up in her name. And your tireless campaigning has brought Natasha's law into effect in 2019, which you talked about, which, you know, it's surprising to think we didn't live in a world where labels weren't on foods. What more is there to do?

There is more to do. And so for our charity, when we looked at why we wanted to start a charity, science was really important. So when Natasha was little, I went to a seminar about what was happening in medical research at the time into food allergies. It was abysmal. There was really nothing. After Natasha's inquest, we met with some eminent doctors in allergy and we asked the same question. And they said, well, actually there is a lot of research happening, but there's not much funding in it.

And it's small pieces of research, a little bit here, a bit there, some nice research, but it's not being joined up. And we need the big research to really make a difference. But a lot of these very clever people believe if we can find out why we're becoming more allergic, which we are, we can find a way to dial it back. So we're already funding a national clinical trial looking into treatments, but it's not a cure. And for us, we just want the day when anaphylaxis isn't an issue. And there is no risk to somebody's life when they have a food. and you know, food allergy. So that's one thing we work on on the campaigning side.

And we were here actually back in 2021. I was here with Emma Torre, a lovely woman who lost her daughter, Shonte, when she was 18 to anaphylaxis, an allergic reaction to hazelnut. And her inquest brought up so many things that had gone wrong in the care, the treatment, and actually what happened medically. and all of these things contributed to this young woman's death. And so we started campaigning.

We called it at the time it was an allergy czar, but really it's an allergy lead. And is somebody to be appointed by government, not a governmental minister, but someone to be appointed, to look at all the areas where people fall short. So, for instance, not enough clinics, long waiting lists for people to be diagnosed, no allergy, adult clinics,

and other areas as well. And did anything happen with that? Well, we campaigned and campaigned, and so many people were behind us. You know, we had a government petition, many signatures. And we had meetings with ministers. And a few years ago, we were actually told everyone was smiling when we arrived in Parliament. And we had the meeting with the minister. And we were told, yes, we are giving you the allergies.

You know, we believe in this. And we just now need to speak to, you know, the NAA. NHS, NHS England, and work out exactly what this job will be and then we'll recruit somebody. And we had the photos on the balcony, the whole thing. You're feeling good. Feeling really good. And then two days later, Rishi Sunak announced the general election. And the moment that happened, the government went into power data and everything was just dropped.

So how significant does today feel then that now schools must provide allergy awareness training for all staffs for the first time? Government is listening. I think that's what's amazing. I think with this they had to. It's a no-brainer. You know, children deserve to be protected when they're in school. And actually not to do this. I can't imagine that anybody in government who's been part of this process

would see that that would be in any way sensible. But certainly from an allergy czar, allergy lead campaign, there are still so many places, many pitfalls where people do get hospitalized because of things that go wrong, just through general not enough awareness and understanding. You can't blame people if they don't know. So we need to raise that and put safeguards in to protect people. I want to thank you for coming in this morning to speak to me.

Tanya Ednaan Lapparos, thank you so much. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard, the BBC Action Line has links to support. and we have a statement from Pret-a-Mange, this was following Natasha's death. Clive Schley, the Prett, chief executives said, I want to say, again, how deeply sorry we are for the loss of Natasha. I said we would learn from this tragedy

and ensure meaningful changes happen. I hope these measures set us on a course to drive change in the industry so people with allergies are protected and informed as possible. Nothing is more important to Pret right now. And in 2019, Pratt announced that all 319, one of its UK shops will have full ingredient labels on all freshly made products by the end of the week. As a result of the change, all of prets freshly made sandwiches, salads, begets and soups are now labelled on a pack each day with a full list of ingredients with the presence of any of

the 14 EU declarable allergens highlighted in bold. Thanks to Natasha's law and your hard work. Tanya once again, thank you. Thank you. Now, breasts, skin, stomach, thighs. Well, the model, author and activist Charlie Howard says she's always been treated like a sex object. From her school days to fronting global modelling campaigns, her body has attracted lots of attention. While now in her new book of essays called Flesh, Charlie says she wants to reclaim her body for herself, one bit, one piece at a time. She set out to explore how women's flesh has been viewed and deconstructed by society through time and the impact sexualisation and misogyny can have on the way women view themselves and their bodies. Charlie, welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you for having me.

I'm so excited. Absolutely our pleasure. Why did you want to write this book? Oh gosh. Well, I think that I had always kind of been very disassociated from my body. I never really understood why. And a couple of years ago now, I was diagnosed with complex PTSD. And to cut a very long story short, one of the reasons for that, according to the psychiatrist, was because of this ongoing misogyny from men and a lot of the relationships I'd had with men. And I remember feeling so embarrassed about it because I come from a very military family. And PTSD is obviously something we assume, you know, people who have seen war, rightfully, you know, have experienced.

But for me, he was saying that if you have this buildup of ongoing day-to-day traumas or things that you don't even think about, you know, eventually they all add up and they all kind of burst in your brain. And how did that manifest in you? Well, I mean, you know, as a teenager, I had eating disorders, which I documented quite a lot, you know, throughout my work. And I got very into body activism and, you know, encouraging women to really love the skin that they're in. But I think, again, even though that was great and obviously I still firmly stand behind that, I think I was still very much focused on my body and always talking about my body and having people always asking me questions about my body. And, you know, I appreciate that what I do, that I talk about that as a job.

But I think that women as a whole are kind of expected to talk about their bodies, defend their bodies, speak about their bodies all the time. You can't just live, whereas we don't expect that from men. So really, it was about coming back to myself and really starting to live a life that's joyful and whole. You've structured your book in body parts. So each chapter is a different body parts. So it starts with vagina. then you've got skin, you've got thighs, for example, and they all get a chapter or an essay.

And so there's lots I want to talk about. We'll start with the beginning. Let's start with vagina. It's woman's hour. It's woman's hour. And there's one bit that really struck me when you talk about how, for us, our genitalia is in us and we are judged, it's part of us. Yes.

Whereas for a man, a penis is a separate thing. It's very separate. We view the man as a separate being, you know, or actually we say, you know, oh, well, he can't control himself because he has these sexual urges or, you know, the way like men, men will be men, boys will be boys, which is obviously a really toxic way of looking at things. Whereas for women, it's, you know, our whole identity is shaped around our vaginas and the fact that we're girls and the fact that we're born. I mean, in certain countries, even in this country, you know, some girls will be born and then automatically their lives take a completely different turn because they're not raised the same. treated the same. Obviously, you know, safety issues and things like that will always be paramount wherever you live, I think, for women. But yeah, your life is kind of dictated to you for simply being born the sex, the gender that you are. You dedicate the book to all women and girls

who've ever felt reduced to their body parts and who know they are worthy of more. How much of your worth has been tied up to your body and how it's perceived by others? Oh my God, so much. I mean, someone said to me, oh, you know, do you think that you've experienced, more misogyny because you got into modelling. And I think that whilst the modelling industry absolutely has a lot of weird people in it who kind of use it for their own advantage and to kind of get close to women and girls and there are so many stories involving that, I think, you know, even before that from a child, maybe even before, maybe even as a toddler really, I've been sexualised.

And I think most women have and we're just not aware of it in that kind of way. I think we tend to think, you know, paedophilia, for example, I know it's a bit of a dark subject to bring it this morning. But I think that we tend to think of just a very rare few men who do that. But actually we're kind of seeing a lot of beauty standards molded by these paedophilic ideals, I suppose. This obsession with youth, with aging, with body hair, with wanting to stay very small and palatable as well. And I think that we expect women, especially with thinness, to, I don't know, to just be easily digestible for the male gaze, essentially. And you, I mean, because you talked about this quite openly, because you did go into modelling.

It's a very specific type of industry where women's bodies are the subject. And, you know, make clothes look however the people want them to look. And then your experience of being in that industry, it really did impact you because you were told that you were too large. Too big, yes, yes. And yes, tell us, my, I mean, look, my jaw has dropped. Yeah. Well, at the time, I mean, I was a size eight, I think. I think I'd gone up to a size eight after being like a size six and working in Paris.

And yeah, it was, you know, it was really difficult. And I kind of lost my mind at that. And I decided to write a Facebook post at the time when things weren't really going viral. Now, you know, everything goes viral. But at the time it wasn't. And so I wrote this post. And it really, I think, kickstarted a conversation about body parts. But like I said, you know, the reason why, how I write in the book,

what I write about in the book is that. I absolutely chase this dream of modelling and wanting to be a model in the hopes that I would be loved, that I would be seen, that I would be desired. And so without even knowing, really, so much of my desires for life, really, and what I thought happiness to be was driven by how I thought other people would perceive me. Other people or men in particular?

Or men, I would say men in particular, yeah. And I think that, again, you know, now we talk a lot about body activism and we talk a lot about body positivity and things like that, but we're still very heavily set on the way women look, whereas we never expect a man to post naked on Instagram and go, I love my body, I feel so empowered. You know, it really isn't the same kind of pressures that men experience.

So I think the conversation needs to change now from, you know, constantly associating empowerment with the way that we look and with beauty and with sexual empowerment and what I kind of call pseudo empowerment, because I think so much empowerment is linked to how sexualized you are. and how sexy you appear on the outside. And who is deemed sexy? Yeah, exactly.

You explained that in your book, the sort of intersection of various cultures and your background. Well, that's what I mean because also, you know, beauty is immeasurable. You know, sexiness is measurable. There are people that think someone like Angelina Jolie isn't attractive. You know, some of the most gorgeous, stunning women. There was, you know, some people will never find certain women attractive and that's fine. But I do think nowadays beauty is heavily tied to how sexual you,

can be and how sexual you can, what's the word, present yourself really. You also explore your relationship with your tummy. Yes. Yeah. Come on. Liberate the sisters. Come on. Get us all undoing our top buttons. Well, that's the thing.

I mean, you know, my stomach's always been one of the things I've always been so self-conscious about. It's never been flat. It's never going to be flat. You know, I'm about to be 35 years old. It's never going to be a washboard stomach. I have something called adenomiosis as well, which is a bit like endometriosis. and it just means that your tummy's going to be a bit more squishier.

And I'm, you know, I've become fine with that. But there are definitely people that still, unfortunately, have comments to say about that. But yeah, I mean, I find it that, that for me has been a real learning curve. What do you mean people who still have comments about that? I saw absolutely stunning image of you on your Instagram in underwear, looking womanly, gorgeous, just beautiful. and I looked at and thought, why do we not see more women in,

why am I not seeing you advertise, bodies like this advertised lingerie to women? Well, it's weird, isn't it? Because it's almost like I look at other women or I even look at Greek statues and I think, oh, they look so sexy and they look so womanly and I love that. But then when we look at our own bodies,

we tend to put ourselves down and think, God, you know, I can't feel comfortable in that way. Whereas I think, I don't know. Becoming comfortable with yourself is really, really the first step towards self-love because no matter how much you kind of parade your body or lose weight or chase thinness or chase beauty unless you love yourself you are never going to feel comfortable and what do people have to say when you put images of yourself out there loving yourself i mean look on the whole women are very supportive there are a lot of people who

say god why would you let yourself go like this you know as if you know being a certain standard obviously is one particular way i did unfortunately have uh as i explained to you before the show a very weird message on Monday from a guy that I was dating. Bearing in mind I'm a size 10, by the way, guys. And I had a message off a guy that I've been seen since December, not anymore, may I add, who said that he couldn't go out with me because I was the biggest woman he'd ever been out with.

And he wasn't used to someone of my body type, which is actually nuts. I mean, I'm laughing because it's like, it's so strange. Strange, yes. But, yeah. But it's nuts. It's also very weird that a man would be that obsessed with, my size because he was saying

you know oh a size 12 is a woman who is completely let herself go and I thought okay well I'm kind of How did it affect you? Well I'm not going to lie I mean you know when to receive a text like that because it's in writing as well this is what's so nuts to receive a text like that you know you kind of can't help but go back to

the feelings that you've had about yourself before but you've got to just centre yourself try and block out the noise horse blinkers on and just remember that you are worth so more than just your body You have said so much in the book, and we could talk about various topics all day, but was it cathartic? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think I really got to the point of my own journey of understanding why I focused so heavily on what men thought about me, why I chased male affection, perhaps so much. And I feel like that's a chapter done now, almost. You know, I've written the book. That's a part of my life done. And I just hope that other women read it and they might see themselves or feel supported, I guess. And empowered.

And sure they will, yes. Charlie, thank you so much for coming in this morning. Charlie Howard and her book, Flesh is out now. And you can still find all 20 episodes of Charlie's pioneering pre-pandemic podcast fashion fix on BBC sounds. Free pandemic, wow. Yeah, I know. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Now, as we celebrate World Book Day today, has a young person in your life got a story to tell? The BBC Young Writers Award with Cambridge University. Open now to submissions of cracking short stories from 14 to 18-year-olds across the country. Short-listed stories will be narrated by an actor and will be published in an anthology. Judging the entries this year will be BBC Radio 1 presenter Lauren Layfield, as well as English teacher, frontwoman Lily Fontaine, and award-winning writers David Armand, Margaret MacDonald and Nathaniel Lessor.

And you can find tips and hints for getting started by searching for BBC Young Writers' Award. Entries close at 9 a.m. on Monday the 23rd of March. My goodness, if 14-year-old me was listening to that, I would be quick to enter. 84844, the text number. This is not the future we were promised. How about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.

This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what tech. technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, for many people across the country who are observing the holy month of Ramadan, it's a time for reflection, spirituality, worship and mindfulness. But for some women who are caring for children as well as for elderly parents,

It's also the so-called sandwich generation. It can prove difficult as they race against the clock to take care of all their daily responsibilities, including preparing the daily meal, Iftar, to break the fast. So how are women making the time to fuel their bodies and their minds and making time for themselves to also have a positive spiritual Ramadan experience? Well, to discuss this, I'm joined in the studio by Shalina Jan Muhammad, an award-winning non-fiction and children's author, columnist and podcaster. Welcome.

Alongside working in the advertising industry, she was a sandwich generation carer for 14 years and is now writing a book about the sandwich crisis. And I'm also joined by Tabasim Nyarmat, mother and community organiser with local charity Bowling Green together in Scotland. Welcome to both of you. I'm Ramadan Mabarak. Happy Ramadan. Shalina, I think what does, let's, let's, let's,

What does Ramadan mean to you? Ramadan is a mix of spirituality. It's a religious prescription, so people will fast during the daylight hours. But it's also a time of trying to reset, block out all of the busy noise of the world and the heaviness of it, and really focus on your spirituality as well as your family and your community. And it's about resetting and finding a little bit of time and space for yourself so you can go back to what you really want to be. I was thinking this morning, I think we might should probably explain for people who don't know, Like what happens during this month?

How is the fasting observed? Like what's expected? So you fast during the daylight hours and that means no food and no water. At the moment, a lot of Muslims up and down the country will be breathing a sigh of relief because we are fasting before the time change. So it's from around 5am until about 6pm. In the summer, it would have been really long hours from something like 2am until 9pm. So no physical intake, no, how should I put this, only 10, 3.3.

No hanky-panky, no smoking. You know, it's really about the... No, hanky-panky. No, just... Well, you know, you can wait until after 6pm if you want to do that. But it's about... People will read a lot of Quran, and that's about the religious aspect.

People will go to the mosque to pray. But there's also, of course, a cultural family part. People want to eat really lovely foods at Iftar. Mums, particularly, I call them being the chief memory officers. We're trying to create that feeling, that nostalgia of Ramadan, in the same way somebody might for Christmas. And then you might wake up at something like half-past four in the morning to have, in quotation

marks, breakfast. In our house, that's a lot of sleepy people eating a lot of porridge. But some people do have quite a big meal. Is this something, I'm going to ask both of you this, because I imagine there must be the whole family waking up at dawn and breaking the fast together. Like, how meaningful is that experience at Thabasim? Certainly when I was growing up with my siblings, it was a whole different experience. kids nowadays they've got like a million different demands of what they want to eat and most often not they just want to sleep rather than eat and as I said with the summer fasting I think everybody wanted to get up and replenish themselves before they do the long fast but

winter now I'm finding they're not as hungry as they were last year so in some ways the Sahur has become a little easier but the Iftar is the nightmare. Why is that to describe it I hate to describe if Thar as a nightmare is it it's It's what we touched on before. It's going against the clock. Honestly, I feel daily, tick, tick, tick, tick. So the minute I wake up, there's obviously the work that I do, my day-to-day. I'm involved with a lot of community activism as well.

And then the meal prep, getting everything and then cooking it, that's all on me. And I just, every day, something that I really love doing, that's the thing I really love cooking for my family. to do it when I'm the oldest of seven siblings so this is something that's been ingrained in me since age of 13 and I don't begrudge it at all I love it but it's just this whole thing of how do I balance what I have to do outside of my home to then what I have to do inside the home and it's almost like it's all the efforts that I'm putting it's like this this battle that I'm doing myself and I feel like no one around me is realizing that I'm a human as well.

like I need this moment, this Ramadan. It's just as important for me. But instead, I'm just thinking of everyone else's emotional, you know, stuff that's going on in their head and that everyone's going to be fed on time and just this constant running around. And it's like, at what point do I get to breathe and enjoy this month the way I used to?

I'm going to bring in the cavalry, going to bring some support in Shalini. Just explain some more about this, the sandwich generation, because it's not just children. So for the sandwich generation, it's dual caring responsibility. So you're looking after some elders and you're looking after children as well. And in the UK, there's around 1.4 million people who are sandwich generation carers.

And like all care, it's very gendered. So nearly two-thirds of all sandwich carers are women. So on the one hand, during normal daily life, that's really stretched to capacity anyway. I called it living in a state of emergency because you're on the go and they're all full-time jobs. and I was working as a lot of sandwich generation carers are. And then you add that to Ramadan, and we've heard the strain that Ramadan can bring. And it is very difficult to use the word strain

because Ramadan is very beautiful. It is a time of great relief and spirituality, but that doesn't mean the reality isn't that it's really hard. And then you bring those two things together. You've got the strain of sandwich caring, and then you have Ramadan as well. And those deadlines, as we've heard, become non-negotiable. You're trying to make Ramadan special,

the elders who have caring needs. So you still need to feed them if they're not fasting. And you still need to feed your children if they're not fasting or they have those requirements. And you're still working, but the deadlines are tighter. Your body's under strain. You're much more exhausted because fasting is a physically draining activity. And you also want to do Ramadan for yourself. And that becomes a really, really heavy, challenging thing to do.

And I know when I experienced it, it was really difficult to do. And this year I wrote about that experience because I wanted to make people feel seen because we don't often think about looking after our elders as in quotation marks care because it's in quotation marks again, women's work. We think of it as low value, as unskilled. It's really, really challenging work. And I wanted people to recognise that when they help their parents out, you take them to a hospital appointment, you drop some food off to them.

You can just listen to them and they've got some needs. That is care. So Tabassim, when do you find time for yourself and time to reflect? Because that is the purpose of this month to have that quiet time. If you have, you've got the strain of working, doing all the work, community work, and your children and all of it. So how do you carve out space? And as Selena had mentioned, parents as well. And my parents are both alive.

And the care is split between myself and my younger sister. And my old medical, my dad took ill recently. So there's a lot of appointments that have to attend with him. and if I be perfectly honest, the benefit of the summer Ramadan because it was longer, it may not have been that great for food-wise, but it gave me more time. But as the Ramadan's getting shorter and shorter,

the fasting time, like I said, that deadline just feels imminent, and I don't get that time. Everyone says to me, just say no, but that's easy to say in practice. What about delegation? Why do we not delegate? Go on.

Go on, sorry. One of the biggest practical pieces of advice I would give to anyone in this situation is that Ramadan is a time about community and people want to do more charitable works. And the hardest thing about being a sandwich carer is to ask for help. Because it all comes back to you. I think the word sandwich is a bit of a misnomer because it's not like you're in between. It's you're the thread that keeps everything together. So ask for help and see if you can get the community involved.

That I think is a really difficult thing to do as a woman. anyway, let alone as a carer. I mean, it's woman's hour. So I feel it's, I mean, when we do talk about this, it comes up often. I don't know what the situation is, the Bassem, but is it, what about your partner? Could he not cook? And could the, does, what, is the responsibility always on you to prepare if they are in the evening? She's nodding.

Yeah, they can't cook. They can't cook. And some of them, the thing is I have adult children and I have young. I have a young, a nine-year-old, but then I've got adult children in the houses. well and for certain medical reasons they can't wash and stuff dishes because they've got allergies so and it's just one of those things my circumstances such and I don't begrudge it I love my family to bits but it's I feel they just see me as this mom like this idea of super mom like that's just your job and it's never malicious is the thing I don't think they

think about it they just assume well all moms do this and they forget that Oh, the line is poor. I also need that time. And like I said, Ramadan for me, I love it. Oh, can you hear me? No, we can hear you. Yes, you love it. Yeah, special time.

No, no, I love Ramadan. It's such a great time. But unfortunately, I think sometimes it's not even malicious. It's just they don't think. They just assume this is just what all moms are doing. And why are you complaining? Well, maybe now people listening will be able to think. think about their own mums who may be preparing and doing everything or their own women in the family.

Echalina quickly. I would just remind everyone that, you know, love is a verb. Love is the things you do. And actually, when you do an act of service, it's a really beautiful thing. And that is Ramadan in itself. And I think it's worth taking the pressure off ourselves to kind of do Ramadan in what might be a very masculine way, which is to go to a particular place or to do rituals. It's okay that when you serve people, that's also part of love and part of Ramadan.

And so I'd say just be intentional in what you want to do and remind yourself that everything has a season and this is a season for care. What a lovely way to end this conversation. Thank you so much to both you, Shalina and Thabasen. Thank you. 84844 is the text number. Now, the novel, Woman of Substance by Barbara, Taylor Bradford,

has sold more than 32 million copies and has never been out of prints since it was first published in 1979. Its original 1985 TV adaptation became Channel 4's highest rating drama with almost 14 million viewers for its final episode. Now, more than four decades later, the epic saga of ambition, betrayal and revenge is back on our screens. And if you don't know it,

the story follows Emma Hart, a maid betrayed by her aristocratic lover when she becomes pregnant, who vows to rise above her circumstances and build an empire of her own. Let's hear a clip. Did you get your extra down in money? I have. Keep climbing, Emma.

You're talented. Whether you're dress making. Even I. I've got two. And if you're smart, which I know you are, you can get out to fairly. Don't be like me, you here. Remember your plan with a capital P.

Get out and get on. That was Jessica Reynolds playing Emma Hart and Sophie Bold, who plays her. mother and Jessica joins me now along with the writer of the series Catherine Jakeways. Welcome. I've watched the first two episodes. You've got me.

I'm in. Delicious. I've been waiting for it. Now Catherine, a woman of substance. It was a huge hit when it was on TV first in 1985. It starred Jenny Seagrove, Liam Neeson and Deborah Cam. I'm sure some of our listeners remember it really well. Why do we make it?

Why now? It's such a good story. It's so kind of stands the test of time and is, I mean, the, original was brilliant actually. The book obviously absolute publishing sensation and the original miniseries on Channel 4 was was watched as you say by more people than have ever watched anything on Channel 4 ever. So we're slightly nervous. No pressure. No pressure. But it's just such a good tale and it absolutely sounds the test of time. It's a brilliant kind of rags to riches story of this wonderful woman Emma Hart who has so much kind of resilience and

creativity and determination and drive and absolutely just bursts through every kind of door that's put in her face and is determined to prove that she is better than her kind of than people think she is because of her circumstance. So she's kind of encouraged by her mum and by the betrayal of the Fairley family to say, I am going to prove,

I'm going to spend the rest of my life proving you wrong, proving that I'm better than you, proving that I can be somebody and that I'm going to look after my family and never let anybody treat me the way you did. So, you know, there's no, there's nothing not to cheer, really. Yeah, we're giving her a whoop. Jessica, you play Emma Hart.

Can I just say, you are fantastic. Thank you, sir. I was looking forward to seeing your face in the real, in flesh, incredible. It's quite something, isn't it? Yes. Tell us about the character he played. Tell us about Emma, what's she like, who is she? Where did she start?

What does she stand for? Yeah, so she starts off Emma as an impoverished maid, you know, still a teenager. and working for the Fairleigh family, an aristocratic family in West Yorkshire. And she goes through a big journey on this series. You know, I play her over the span of, what, five years, four years. Yeah, and is it six years? Yeah, I think it is in the first series.

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, and it's like Catherine said, it's about her journey and her evolving and learning to adapt in order to get into the rooms that she needs to, and becoming, yeah, the woman of substance, I suppose. And just her life spans, like you say, nearly the whole of the 20th century. I mean, what a joy to write.

I mean, you can tell me about getting into the research. Because she starts as a young servant without the right to vote in the early 1900s. Then she's a hugely successful business mogul in the 1990s. Fashion hello. Yeah, 70s. Yeah, 70s. Sorry, yeah, the shagpal car. Yeah, yeah.

So much has changed for women during those decades. So what do you think Emma represents? presents about the shift. Do you think she's ahead of the time? Do you think she's just simply determined enough not to really bother about what's expected of women? I think in terms of the people around her and what was expected of women at the time,

she's massively ahead of the time, clearly. She kind of starts and, yeah, we meet her in 1911 when she's a teenager and then we also meet her. In the same episodes, we meet her brilliantly played by Brenda Blethen, when she is approaching her 80th birthday. So mid-70s, and you see her, she's the richest woman in the world. She's got sort of skyscrapers with her name on them. She's in New York.

She's dressed amazingly. She's got kind of, you know, an empire across the world, really. And she's lived through so much change. And yeah, she starts out. We see her on a, you know, horse and cart, and by the 70s, she's in Concord, you know. So it's almost unthinkable, isn't it? The change that occurred over the course of people of that age's lifetime. When I was watching it, I thought, oh, I wonder.

was really intrigued by the 1985 series as well. And I thought, I wonder how it's different, how the sort of version of Emma and feminism, and in that adaptation, adaptation compares to this one. I think when it came out, what really resonated with largely women, but with people generally, was that it was a woman who had just refused to be put in her place,

and she was absolutely making this success of herself, despite her background and despite her. her gender and she's absolutely you know iconic for that in the 80s watching it now I mean less has changed as we know than we might have liked

there are more examples of that of women who have have risen to those kind of heights than the were in the 80s but there's still far too few and I think it's also a kind of class struggle thing I think the fact that you know so her being a woman is obviously hugely

important but her you know the class struggle that she has has feels so resonant now, doesn't it? Tell us more, Jessica, that's kind of that drive. Where does it come from? What is it about Emma that gets her there? Well, I think it's completely her background. She has handed nothing.

She is completely impoverished. We're not talking about, you know, just a girl from humble backgrounds. We're talking about a girl from complete poverty. And using the trauma that happens her at a very young age and her surroundings to catapult her in. into a place that she deems as safer than where she comes from. She needs to have a life.

It's a complete fighter flight survival mode for her to become more than her mother was ever able to become. And that's been drilled into her whole life that she deserves that. And that just because she's from that class doesn't mean that she doesn't deserve a spot at the table. And that is what she fights for her. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You had me from the very beginning when she's got that, when her mum, the clip that we heard and a mum was saying, you've got to get out, you've got to get on. I just thought, well, that's all, sometimes that's all someone needs to hear.

You know, we're getting so many messages in and I'm aware that the program's going to worry. So I just want to read out one saying, I became a doctor despite my mother being told at parent teacher evenings that she would put, and she would put any idea of being a doctor out of her head for anyone who really wishes to achieve something in life that others say is impossible. I encourage them to hold tight to their self. If it doesn't happen for them, they will have tried and nothing is lost. Can we have to talk about, because the other thing I noticed, immediately was the West Yorkshire landscape. Yeah. And you film in my part of the world.

You're up in Ilkley. You would not have been able to hold our heads up. I mean, beautiful. What was it like being up there spending all that time? Jessica was there a lot more than I was, but isn't it stunning? Yeah, my absolute favourite parts of film in the show were on the Yorkshire Murs when Emma's kind of in her, pure innocence, you know, at the start. She's so connected to the land.

And I think that's what she loses a bit as she transcends her class and becomes more middle class. She loses maybe a sense of community and connection to the land. And being there was just, you know, I love working off the elements and being on location.

It's stunning. It reminds me of Ireland. Yeah, I was going to say, obviously we can hear it in your voice but knowing a little bit that I do know about you. Can you relate to that? As someone who's from a place that's so connected to land and now here you are on your journey

and this is going to send you into the stratosphere now. Of course, I think that was like one of the main connections I had to Emma, you know, kind of the humble backgrounds, but also being from a place where you are an underdog and having that kind of lance around you. You know, there's a real community where I'm from and that's so important. But she kind of transcends and moves away from that.

So, you know, there's a sense of kind of betrayal of self as well. And I mean, there's so much wrapped up. in the eight episodes, you know, that she goes through. You're still very young at the beginning of your career. Do you think there's playing a character like this, having just described the journey she goes through where you are in your own sort of personal acting journey, that a bit of Emma will always be with you?

Have you sort of, if there's some messages from this character that you're like, oh, yes. Yeah, absolutely. I've been talking about it. Yeah, I've been talking about it a lot recently that, like, I had to like write her a letter to say goodbye because it's the first time. I've led film, you know, independent film,

a few times, but first time leading a TV show. And I was completely inhabited and kind of immersed in her in that world. And, you know, having to transform into a Yorkshire woman, essentially. Like, I was a different version of myself. And so she was so inspiring, but also exhausting. And I was kind of ready to say goodbye. Well, you know what? You have to come back and talk about that,

because that's the other side of being a very successful, powerful woman. Exhausting. And thank God you auditioned. I know. Thank God. I want to thank you both for coming in. A Woman of Substance premieres on Channel 4 next Wednesday, the 11th of March. It's loads of fun.

It is loads of fun. Delicious, great characters. We're all in. We will be in. I'm going to end with a couple of your messages because so many are coming in. Emily says, I've always struggled with my neurological disabilities, but after many years, I finally became a barrister. I start my first hearings in April and I can't wait.

And another one saying I left school with no qualifications in my mid-30s and with a young family, I found a way back to education and started from the basics. At times it's very challenging. I've completed a Bachelor of Science and subsequently an MSE in counselling, psychology. But more importantly, I've achieved my own self-worth. Join me tomorrow for more Women's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hello, I'm John York and I want to tell you about opening lines, a series from BBC Radio 4, in which I'll be looking at books, plays, poems and stories of all kinds that have made a mark and asking, what makes them work? I mean, this stuff is jar-droppingly shocking. I'll be asking lots of questions. What's at the heart of the story? How does it achieve its effect? What makes it special? History is usually written by winners, but he wants to give a voice to people who are not usually heard. I'll be hearing from people who know and love these works, writers. We do have an orgasm evoked on the page. Dramatists, biographers. It's worn better as a book about England than it has as a book

about sex, I think. And directors too. In the end, I'll be asking, what makes this work worth reading now? Join me to find out in opening lines from BBC Radio 4 and available on BBC Sounds. not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work

and your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.