Woman's Hour - Althea Gibson, Bill of Rights, Sexual assault at festivals, Miscarriage & stroke, Viking Festival - Up Helly Aa

Episode Date: June 24, 2022

On Wednesday the government announced plans to create a new ‘Bill of Rights’ to Parliament, that will replace the current Human Rights Act. It argues that these reforms will ‘reinforce freedom of speech, enable us to deport more foreign offenders and better protect the public from dangerous criminals’. But organisations that work with female victims of crime say this is a direct attack on women’s rights. They say the Human Rights Act is an important weapon when it comes to victims and survivors’ ability to seek justice. Next Monday is the start of this year’s Wimbledon and today we discover the story behind Althea Gibson the first Black woman to win Wimbledon in 1957 and 1958. Despite many obstacles her achievements, now more than 60 years ago, led seven-times Wimbledon winner, Serena Williams, to describe her as the ‘most important pioneer for tennis’. Writer and performer Kemi-Bo Jacobs was so inspired by her that she has written a one-woman play about this trailblazer, now on stage at the Alphabetti Theatre in Newcastle. With festival season well underway, the Association of Independent Festivals has re-launched the Safer Spaces campaign which tackles sexual assault and harassment at festivals. Over 100 festivals have signed up to their charter, and will be rolling out their policies over the summer. Anita Rani is joined by Kate Osler, who is on the non-executive board of the Association of Independent Festivals and is secretary director for the El Dorado festival where she is currently setting up for next weekend, and Bea Bennister, who co-founded Girls Against, a non-profit organisation fighting sexual assault at live music events.Women who have suffered multiple miscarriages and stillbirths are at greater risk of stroke, according to new research published by the British Medical Journal. The data looked at over 600,000 women around the world, and in particular women aged between 32 and 73 who were then followed up for an average of 11 years. Professor Gita Mishra is from the University of Queensland, School of Public Health and the senior author on this project.As far as festivals go, Shetland's famous Up Helly Aa fire festival has to be one of the most spectacular. It takes place in January and remembers the Vikings who used to rule the Shetland islands 1,000 years ago. Warriors parade through the streets by torchlight as visitors from across the world gather to watch the spectacle and the day culminates with the dramatic burning of a replica Viking long ship. But women and girls have never been allowed to take part in Lerwick - which is the capital of Shetland - until now. It was announced earlier this week there will no longer be gender restrictions. Johan Adamson is a campaigner from the group Up Helly Aa for Aa and Amy Gear is codirector of arts organisation Gaada who looked at the equality of Up Helly Aa for of their projects.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Hannah Couchman Interviewed Guest: Victoria Atkins Interviewed Guest: Kemi-Bo Jacobs Interviewed Guest: Kate Osler Interviewed Guest: Bea Bennister Interviewed Guest: Professor Gita Mishra Interviewed Guest: Johan Adamson Interviewed Guest: Amy Gear

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Woman's Hour. Now this week, Kim Kardashian was being interviewed by Jimmy Fallon on American TV and she admitted that she'd never watched Saturday Night Live, the iconic comedy show that's a rite of passage for a lot of great American comedians where they come up through the ranks and go on to greatness.

Alumni include Will Ferrell, Jim Carrey, Jimmy Fallon, Tina Fey, Amy Poehler, Chris Rock and Kim's current boyfriend, Pete Davidson, hence her now new interest in SNL. So it got us thinking about interests or passions you might have introduced your partner to or that they may have adopted from you. Have you enjoyed them getting into your thing or has it been a bit annoying that they've appropriated what was once only yours? Did you take them to their very first tennis lesson and now they practice more than you and even more annoying, they may be better than you.

Have they taken your joy of theatre and become more of an aficionado? Are they more into your favourite music artist than you've ever been? Do they now support your football team and got a tattoo? Or what have they taken from your partner? Or maybe you've taken your partner's hobby and run with it. Text us 84844

you can you can also email us by going to our website and of course you can contact us on social media it's at bbc women's hour we're talking about appropriating your partner's interests and hobbies this morning also are you at a festival or heading to one this summer maybe your daughter or son are going to their very first one. What about your safety when you're there? I'll be chatting to two women who want to make the mosh pit and everything around it a safer environment. Also this morning, we'll be discussing the new Bill of Rights,

which the government wants to introduce to replace the existing Human Rights Act, plus Althea Gibson. A name you recognise? Well, she's a pioneer in the world of tennis. The first black woman to win Wimbledon in 1957 and 1958. And up helly-ya. I'm not sure if I said it right, but I think it sounds good in a Yorkshire accent. It's the Ancient Fire Festival celebrated up in Shetland. And it's finally allowing women to take part.

It's only taken them a thousand years, but progress has been made. We want to hear from you about anything you hear on the show today. Your thoughts, please, you can text me 84844 or you can contact social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. But first, a difficult day for the Conservative Party after losing two by-elections and their party chairman, Oliver Dowden. Also this week, one of the government's key policies is being criticised. Plans have been announced to Parliament to create a new Bill of Rights that will replace the current Human Rights Act.

It argues that these reforms will reinforce freedom of speech, enable us to deport more foreign offenders and better protect the public from dangerous criminals. But the new bill has come in for a lot of criticism, particularly from organisations that work with female victims of crime who say that this is a direct attack on women's rights. They say the current Human Rights Act is an important weapon when it comes to victims' and survivors' ability to seek justice

and they're concerned about what will be lost. This is the Shadow Justice Secretary, Ellie Reeves, talking in Parliament on Wednesday. This Bill of Rights con isn't just an attack on victims of crime who the state has failed to protect. It's an attack on women. Women have used the Human Rights Act to challenge the police when they've either failed or refused

to investigate rape and sexual assault cases. We saw it in the case of John Warboys, who is thought to have assaulted over 150 women. It should come as no surprise that this bill has been put forward by a Conservative government that has effectively decriminalised rape. Last week's scorecard showed pitiful progress on the record low rape convictions under this government. Joining me to discuss this further is Barrister Hannah Couchman,

the Senior Legal Officer at the charity Rights of Women, and in the studio, Victoria Atkins, the Justice Minister. Good morning to you both. Hannah, I'm going to come to you first. The Labour MP we just heard and Shadow Justice Secretary Ellie Reeves just described the new Bill of Rights as an attack on women. Can you explain why your charity and others that work with female victims of crime think that this Bill of Rights is such a bad idea? Yes, good morning, Anita. Thanks for having me. So the first thing to say

is that this is not a Bill of Rights. It's a rights removal bill. It is weakening the rights to which we are all entitled and then handing even more power to the powerful. This is happening even though the Conservative manifesto only committed to updating the Act. This is a wholesale tearing up of that Act. And it's also happening even though the government's own independent review said that this wasn't necessary, and thousands of consultation responses have said the same. We're particularly concerned at Rights of Women and across the women's rights sector because of one particularly egregious part of this bill that says that there will be an end to what we call positive obligations. What does that mean in practice? What it means is that under

the current Human Rights Act, the government and its bodies like the police forces have to actively protect our human rights. If this bill were to be successful, and we will fight it every step of the way, that would no longer exist. There would no longer be that positive obligation. And we know that women have used the Human Rights Act and those positive obligations to bring justice where they have been let down by the state and particularly by the police. We heard Ellie Roos mention the War Boys case.

Why is that significant? Yes, so the War Boys case. Why is that significant? Yes, so the War Boys case, your listeners might remember it as the Black Cab Rapist case. That was a case where this particular offender was able to go on for years abusing, assaulting and raping women because of complete failures by the police to take their report seriously, to link them together, to understand what these women had experienced. Now, two of his victims were able to use the Human Rights Act to challenge those failures and to ensure the police were held accountable and re-emphasise that their human

rights meant that there was an obligation for the police to effectively investigate what they had completely failed to do. So if this act were to pass, if this bill were to pass and become an act, that would no longer be possible. Women who were already let down by the criminal justice system, who were already re-victimised by it, wouldn't have that route of redress. Victor, I'm going to bring you in. Hannah raises some serious points there. Will this curb women's ability to challenge state injustice,

like police failures, when it comes to violence against women? Well, good morning. And no, it won't. And I can reassure everyone who's listening that not only does the Human Rights Act, that incorporated the European Convention, the European Convention will remain, remains rightly in the British, in the Bill of Rights. And we've done that because we want to be proud of our human rights. I spent 20 years prosecuting in criminal courts and it was a great sadness to me that the phrase human rights can lead some people to roll their eyes. That is not how this should be.

We should be proud of our record on human rights and what is more, enhance them. And that is what the Bill of Rights is trying to do. On the specific point about protecting women and girls if I may as Justice Minister for tackling violence against women and girls I'd like to take if you like a step back because the horrendous horrendous crimes that that particular individual committed and Hannah is right to raise them. I do not want women to have to go through years of painful, stressful, expensive litigation in order to assert their rights that frankly should have been respected and observed in the first place. And so this must please be seen in

the context not just of the Bill of Rights, but also the huge body of work that is going on across government, across the police, across the Crown Prosecution Service and across the courts to ensure that victims of rape and sexual violence are secure the justice they rightly deserve from the very moment they report the matter to the police. We've got a huge programme of work from the moment somebody reports the crime to the police through to the moment a court case is decided. And at every single stage, we've conducted a forensic examination so that we are holding the police to account. You know, we are focusing on suspect focused investigations now, not the witnesses credibility. We're looking at what we can do to enhance the support for victims in courts when they arrive at court to give their evidence.

We're rolling out pre-recorded evidence across courts in England and Wales. All of this is working to ensure that the sorts of cases that Hannah has highlighted do not happen in the first place because those complaints are taken seriously and they are investigated properly by the police and then charged by the CPS. Hannah, what are your main concerns for the knock on effects for women? So, first of all, just to come back on some of what's been said. It's really interesting to hear Victoria say that we don't want women to have to go through this kind of litigation to get justice. Obviously, neither do we. But the reality is that these failures are happening. They're happening on a daily basis. The women we advise tell us about those failures. So for the government to say we're taking this very seriously, but in the same breath say we are going this is just another way in which the government is saying that the rights of women aren't being considered

important, that their rights aren't as important as them having more power for themselves. We already know, your listeners will already know, that women face re-traumatisation and re-victimisation at every stage of the criminal justice system. We're hearing about that now, we're hearing about the efforts that are being made. But with respect, the women's rights sector have heard these promises for decades. We still need that ability to hold the government to account. To remove it is frankly dangerous. Victoria?

So in the last 12 months, we conducted, as I say, this forensic review of the criminal justice system, something no government has ever done before, precisely because we were listening to victims and to campaigners. And we were so deeply, deeply troubled by what we were seeing with the figures. And in the last year, we've got eight levers, I can go into the details. But one of the things we have done is to publish for the first time national and local data on each stage of the criminal justice process so that Hannah, myself and others can hold the police, the CPS and others to account. And if I may just say, and it's really important

for I think the sake of victims, but also those who are working on this day in, day out on the front line to acknowledge that there are early signs of progress already within the first year since the rape review was published. We have seen a 67% increase in convictions in the last year and 27% since before the pandemic. We are seeing more victims report their rapes to the police. We are seeing the CPS charge more perpetrators. These are early signs and I put, you know, I don't for a moment pretend that the job is done, but these are early signs of progress, which is why I say this must please be taken

in the round when we're looking at important cases such as the one that Hannah has highlighted because this is absolutely not, it is not right to say that this government or I as a minister are somehow closing our eyes to this. We are absolutely not. I have the great pleasure and honour of working with campaigners.

And indeed, I have done. I've spent my entire ministerial career of five years when I left the criminal courts, came into government. I've spent my entire ministerial career working on the rights of women and had the huge pleasure of bringing the Domestic Abuse Act forward, for example, through the House. But doesn't this bill, Victoria, contradict the hard work that you've done? Doesn't it rely on a total trust in police doing the right thing

and the powers doing the right thing? And we know, because women tell us on Women's Hour regularly, that sadly, post-Sarah Everard's murder, and it's something that people from minority communities have known for a long time, that they just don't have that level of trust in institutions and the authority. Well, following the very, very tragic events of last year,

and I'm very mindful that families won't necessarily want their loved ones' names used in the course of a sort of political conversation, but there were many many horrific horrific murders of women going about their daily lives last year and it caused a national conversation and with that national conversation we opened up a consultation public consultation to try and gather those views we got 180 responses in two weeks this is unprecedented for a government consultation and the reason we did

that was precisely because I wanted women's views to shape the government's strategy on tackling violence against women and girls. We published that last year. This is in addition to the rate review. We published that last year. It has things, for example, as appointing a national policing lead to focus on violence against women and girls. We've done that. We've got DCC Maggie Blythe in place who's doing great work across policing. We've also launched listening to campaigners as we have done. We've launched a public comms campaign called hashtag enough to try to tackle some of these attitudes, the so-called banter that underlines so much of the criminality that we all are determined to tackle. And so please don't just see the Bill

of Rights alone. There is a huge programme of work with, for example, the draft victims law as well to protect victims, a huge body of work across government. Hannah, there's a lot of work going on. Is that what the women you speak to tell you? What are your concerns about this? Well, the first thing i would say is if the government are so confident in the work they're doing why are they seeking to escape accountability when those things go wrong i think that's really telling and to pick up on a few other things that were mentioned talking about the confidence that women have in the police or the

lack thereof particularly as you mentioned black and minoritised women who have experienced such police brutality and such lack of trust in the police. We saw it at the vigil held for Sarah Everard. That was challenged. The police brutality that was experienced was challenged in the courts using the Human Rights Act. I think it's plain that women are really struggling at the moment to believe that the criminal justice system as it exists will take them seriously and will uphold their rights. I hear about all the work that Victoria is referring to. When we advise women on our advice lines, we're not hearing these positive experiences. And as I say, even if there is going to be fantastic work that addresses some of these issues, then even more so the government

should be opening itself up saying we're committed to this. And so you can challenge us in the courts where things go wrong. There is concern from your critics, Victoria, that all this bill is doing is giving the government more power and taking away rights from people, particularly those in marginalised sectors of society, women, disabled, elderly, minorities and people seeking refuge? No, the convention rights remain, the fundamental human rights remain absolutely incorporated into domestic law. I mean, I'm particularly struck, Hannah is completely right to focus on the different and additional pressures that certain parts of our communities

with protected characteristics face. That's why I've invested £2 million more into specialist by-and-for services for victims of sexual violence so that they can get the help they need. But there's also, and I appreciate it is talking to women on the ground. I absolutely take the point that this is about ensuring women see justice today but the work we are doing

as I say, early signs but we are beginning to see progress and it's right that we acknowledge that because we are trying everything we can to ensure that we secure justice for victims of rape and sexual violence for example, later this year we will be launching the first

national 24-7 support services for victims of rape and sexual abuse, because I do not want to have a system where women have to ring a helpline between two and four in the afternoon. We're setting that up because we know that they can be critical in not only helping victims to recover but also to support them if they feel able to carry on with a police investigation or a prosecution. Hannah? Yes, I mean, it's true that our advice lines are only open for limited hours.

We wish we could do more. We are doing that though, Hannah, in fairness. We are doing that. We are doing that as an organisation. I'm talking about our advice line that we run run at Rights for Women but leaving that to one side for a moment it's interesting that Victoria talks about how the convention rights are all still there what we're still failing to engage with is the removal of those positive obligations so yes the convention rights are there they can be utilized in some circumstances but what this

bill clearly states is that there would no longer be a positive obligation on the state and its bodies, such as the police, to actively protect those human rights. Cases like Wurrboy's could not happen. There wouldn't be that route of address available. Victoria, why is the government so keen for this Bill of Rights to go ahead? Is it in reaction to the court in Strasbourg

grounding the flight to Rwanda? So in fairness, this has been the topic of conversation within the Conservative Party for many, many years now. In fact, I think it was a manifesto commitment in 2010. And indeed, you know, when I look back over, for example, the comments of Lord Hoffman, who was a law lord back in 1999, just after the act came into force. The ways in which the Human Rights Act, as opposed to the Convention, has been applied has been the topic of much legal and academic debate. The Convention itself, these are fundamental human rights,

which, as I say, proudly remain incorporated in our law. But the framework and the structures around which, that have evolved over time, particularly the activities of the Strasbourg court, perhaps 10 years ago, also when it I think most people accepted it was very much expanding its remit. That is the you know, that that is what is of concern. We very much want to enhance those rights so that we can be proud and we don't have the negative reaction that sadly some people may have when they hear that phrase. We're also keen, for example, to inject into the Bill of Rights things like the right to trial by jury. As a criminal barrister, that is music to my ears.

That is a fundamental British right and I'm delighted it's going to be in this Bill. And we've got to move on to the next item but victoria i've got you in the studio so i've got to ask it's not a good day for the conservative party overnight you've lost two by elections and your party chairman oliver dowden in his resignation letter he said that our supporters are distressed and disappointed by recent events i want to know if you are i want want to know whether you think it's time for a change at the top. Well, I think the results, they are very, very significant results in different parts of the country. I'm conscious that Oliver, as chairman, will have pounded the streets of both Wakefield and Tiverton.

I mean, it's always difficult to delineate exactly why tens of thousands of people voted as they did. But the fact that he has highlighted those feelings, I think is something that we should reflect upon with great humility and mull over from across the party from the top down. I mean, for my own part, I think, you know, the more we're talking about subjects such as the cost of living, which I know there'll be listeners to your programme who are genuinely worried about their own finances, about the finances of their loved ones today, but also in the coming months. We've got to focus on that.

I think we've also got to address, continue the work that we're doing on tackling violence against women and girls, given we've just been talking about that. But I do think these are results that we do need to mull over very, very carefully. Okay, Victoria Atkins, the Justice Minister, thank you very much for joining me,

and Hannah Couchman, Senior Legal Officer at the charity Rights for Women. Your thoughts, 84844 is the number to text. You can also email us by going to our website. I started the programme by asking you if you have appropriated any hobbies or interests from your partner. Someone has got in touch to say,

my partner and I delight in sharing our hobbies as they're so different. From cricket matches to climbing, we're making each other more rounded and push each other out of our comfort zones. My boyfriend, someone says, followed my example and started watching Coronation Street. We now enjoy intelligent discussions about it.

That's from Jen. And Saeed says, I introduced my partner to Bollywood songs and now he loves them. He has his own curated playlist for the gym. We got married last year and our dance floor was one of the best and most eclectic. I bet it was. Now, next Monday is the start of this year's Wimbledon. And today we discover the story behind Althea Gibson, the first black woman to win Wimbledon in 1957-1958. Now, despite many obstacles, her achievements now more than 60 years ago led seven times Wimbledon winner Serena

Williams to describe her as the most important pioneer for tennis. Well, writer and performer Kemi Bo Jacobs was so inspired by her that she's written a one-woman play, All White, Everything But Me. It's about this trailblazer, and now it's on stage at the Alphabetti Theatre in Newcastle, and Kemi Bo joins me to tell me more. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Kemi Bo. Hi. Who was... Hi, good morning.

Morning. So Althea Gibson, tell us more. Who was she? Yeah, everything you said and so much more. She was the first, I say black person because she won Wimbledon before Arthur Ashe, who was the first black man to win Wimbledon in 1957-58. So she was winning Wimbledon and other Grand Slam tournaments,

US Open, what is now the fourth, the French Open, the Australian Open. And then she went on to have a professional career in golf as the first black female golfer professionally. So she had an extraordinary life and achieved incredible things at a time when the challenges were so great. There were huge obstacles and barriers and also a time when race politics, certainly in America and the rest of the world, were, you know, were really bad.

And she endured and overcame many of those things. And sadly, so few people know who she is. And certainly in this country, I'm sure like lots of people, Wimbledon each year is such an event. It's such a great thing to look forward to and enjoy and I know that certainly in my family we always did and we're a very kind of sporting, athletic family. But I'd never heard of her,

and so it was a real shock to discover her and to know that she'd won Wimbledon 40 years before Venus Williams won it in 2000. And to me, that was extraordinary that I hadn't known that history. And so many brilliant things happened to her beyond that. The year that she won, 1957, and so many brilliant things happened to her beyond that. The year that she won, 1957,

was the year that the Queen presented at Wimbledon for the very first time. She was entered into the International Women's Sporting Hall of Fame, into the International Tennis Hall of Fame. And like you say, it is remarkable and very sad that we don't know her name, but you are changing that and we're helping you by amplifying her voice. I think we should hear, we've got a clip of her, actually. Let's hear her speak, hear her words,

and then you can tell us more about how you found out about her. This is Althea. I would never thought that coming from the streets of New York, playing paddle tennis, that I would be one who would have the opportunity to shake the hand of Queen Elizabeth. To me that is a great honor. But it all started back in the play streets where the kids coming up trying to make something of themselves and trying to keep out of trouble. And I felt that I have accomplished a great deal in that respect. And I have so many people to be thankful to be in this position that I'm in now. Of course, I'm very happy and elated over the situation, that being the Wimbledon champion. But it wasn't all my doings.

There was a lot of people's encouragement, a lot of people's good wishes that accompanied me over there and helped me to go along and to win this title. And of course, with God's help also, I, well, I did that. Wow. Well, it's quite amazing hearing her voice. That was Althea Gibson speaking when she won Wimbledon for the first time in 1957. What do you think about that clip? It's lovely to hear her voice. Isn't it?

Yeah. And exactly what she says. Actually, she came from a family of sharecroppers. She was born in Silver, South Carolina. And they, like lots of African-Americans, migrated to the north from the south and then landed in Harlem towards the end of the Harlem Renaissance, which was this great expression of African-American art and culture in America, which we still enjoy today, the legacy of that.

So how did she go from, because there's some other, she was single, she had no money. She had no professional organisation standing behind her, supporting her. How did she overcome all those obstacles to go on to achieve what she did? A combination of talent, hard work, belief and opportunity. I mean, our play, All White Everything But Me, which is directed by Floriana Desue brilliantly and an alphabetic theatre, like you said, really explores that.

So we chart her life for about four decades from the age of 10 up until kind of her 40s. And we chart that. So she was discovered playing paddle tennis which is like tennis but played with smaller rackets smaller courts um and slightly different rules um and someone just recognized her ability and thought a chap called buddy walker recognized her ability and thought i wonder if she'd be good at tennis and um she ended up going to, because her talent was so extraordinary

for someone of that age, she was invited to play at a private tennis club called the Cosmopolitan Tennis Club in New York, which is really, it was one of the few places where black and white people could mix and play together. And there she met some amazing people who actually supported her and enabled her to pursue tennis as a career. But she was able to overcome these things really by the fact that her talent was undeniable. And so other very successful tennis players, a tennis player called Alice Marble

was really integral in helping Althea play at the national tennis championships in America, which were played at a place called Forest Hills in New York. And she wrote quite a scathing letter to, which was published in a notable sports magazine, which said that, you know, Althea Gibson has been held back because she's black essentially and this really shook things up um so the play really looks at how that happened it's a whittlestop tour of these events yeah but really the question that we fundamentally ask is why isn't she remembered and who writes history

who decides who's remembered and who decides who is erased um and you know alfie always wanted to be somebody her autobiography which was published in 1957 um that's the title of it you know i always wanted to be somebody and i think growing up in a world in which she was told that she was nobody, coming from a really kind of poor, very working class background, a little bit of a troubled background. She was a bit of a renegade, didn't really fit in, didn't like school. And a bit of a troubled life at home. I think she met that challenge of being told that she was no one by the extreme suggestion that she was going to be somebody.

And she excelled. She just... I suppose she had to. She had to excel to get to where she got to. It makes me... It's making me think just what it would have taken psychologically for her to sort of step into those spaces and perform every single time

with everything that was going on around her there's a lot there's a lot yeah we've called the play all white everything but me um because billy a jean king who was a huge fan and certainly celebrates althea's name to this day um said that at the time althea was playing you know everything was white this is a direct quote the balls the clothes the socks the shoes the people everything and so that was the inspiration for the title of the play that you're right that althea was walking out into these arenas which were the preserve of the elite in in many ways tennis is still a preserve of the elite um and everyone was white, you know, and it must have been incredibly daunting for her, playing to crowds who didn't celebrate her wins, who would fall silent when she won a point.

And, you know, she was the first, she was the only one, and she was different. It's a term that Shonda Rhimes talks about, being first, only, different, and the extra burden that's placed upon you. And there was a huge huge burden a lot of pressure on her shoulders because the press weren't kind to her but neither was the black community why was that yeah you know i think it's that's really interesting um

jackie robinson who was the first african-american to play in the major baseball league he played for the Dodgers, I believe. He was very outspoken in terms of race politics in America. And he would speak out on things and get behind the She thought that her being there, her being present, was enough of a demonstration. But as you rightly said, a section of the African-American community and press weren't kind to her for that decision, for the decision she made to not be outspoken. And I think... Yes. I think that really troubled her, actually.

It is an incredible story, and I'm really pleased that we're talking about it today. Why did you want to write this play? Why did you want to tell her story? I thought that her voice had been silenced, and I wanted to, as you said, amplify her achievements, because representation is really important. And not only is she part of black history, but she's part of world history. And I think the narrative around that is really important, that what she did and what she achieved at a time when the challenges were so great.

And the consequences of being a black figure with high profile were quite grave actually you know we're still thinking this is 10 years before the walk on selma civil rights in america are in a pretty bad way yeah um and i just yeah i saw that story and i thought why do i not know this um and everyone that i spoke to that was a sports fan or a tennis fan didn't know who she was either. And now we do. And that struck me as being an injustice and I wanted to kind of some way help to readdress that

and amplify her voice. Well, Kemi Bo, it's been fascinating talking to you this morning about Althea Gibson. Thank you very much. Now, tonight, Billie Eilish will make history by being the youngest ever performer to headline the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury. Major FOMO being felt here in the studio,

I'm happy to admit. But with festival season well underway, how do we ensure the safety of the punters? The Association of Independent Festivals has relaunched the Safer Spaces campaign, which tackles sexual assault and harassment at festivals. Over 100 festivals have signed up to their charter and will be rolling out their policies over the summer.

Well, I'm joined by Kate Osler, who is the non-executive board of the Association of Independent Festivals and is secretary director for the El Dorado Festival, where she's currently setting up for next weekend, and Bea Benister, who co-founded Girls Against, a non-profit organisation fighting sexual assault at live music events. Welcome to Women's Hour, both of you. Kate, let me come to you first.

Tell me about the campaign. What does the Charter commit festival organisers to? The campaign really started because the festival industry wanted to take a more proactive approach to tackling sexual violence with their active and engaged audiences so the objectives are to raise greater awareness about sexual violence at festivals both backstage as well as front of house to commit to taking a survivor-led approach to tackling sexual violence which is underpinned by policies procedures and training and to really spread key messages about consent and bystander intervention with our active and listening audiences. So what sort of things will you be putting into place in El Dorado in the festival that you're at?

So we'll obviously be letting audiences know that we have a zero tolerance and survivor-led approach at the festival. We'll also be signposting to the policies and facilities available on site across the weekend. We've got briefing sessions with all staff, volunteers, security and anyone working backstage on how to handle and escalate harassment, aggression or assault. And then we're considering more basic things like having anti-spiking lids behind bars, really reconsidering where our lighting plans for walkways are, ensuring that there are female security members at gates and within our wellbeing team, as well as having well-trained welfare teams on site this year we're also going to be delivering consent workshops and discussions and via our welfare team that are accessible throughout the weekend

um yeah um let me bring b in here brie b you started girls against which is partnered with the campaign and you started it in 2015 when you were just 17 what made you want to launch it hi yeah um it was feels like such a long time ago now but i think initially it was for a love of music and being in spaces that we love and not feeling 100 safe um it was kind of a group of us on twitter came together sharing some of our experiences um that maybe weren't so nice and thinking why is this happening in spaces that we love and I think we never really expected for the scale of what happened with Girls Against to happen we just wanted to start a conversation um and set up a online platform that other people could share and what were the what were the

conversations what kinds of things were what things had happened to women at festivals? And it's boys as well, I must say. Yeah, so we had a lot of kind of uncertainty around that, I think, at the beginning, because you never really are taught what sort of boundaries, you know, at school and education-wise. You're not really taught what's right, what's wrong. So a lot of the time, you know, if there's inappropriate touching, or someone

standing too close to you, or you know, something more severe, if someone's kind of putting their hands up your skirt, you never really know if that's something that just happens. And a lot of the time, we did say to each other, is this something that happens quite a lot of the time we did say to each other is this something that happens quite a lot or not and I think we came to the conclusion that even if it does happen quite a lot it's not right to be happening. And also in that moment particularly if you're in the you know in the dance floor or wherever you are in the festival it's such a shock isn't it you just don't know how to react when it does happen. Exactly and I think that's you know such a big part of the problem um and something we're really trying to tackle now is that people don't know how to respond

and it's really easy to say you know these are the next steps that you can follow because in that moment like if you're trying to think for yourself what to do um if something really traumatic has just happened um you're often yeah very, very shocked, very distressed, and it's hard to kind of process. So I think that's why the importance of kind of like having safe spaces, having signposting, so that if something does happen and you're feeling very overwhelmed, very stressed, you know you can look around and think,

oh, okay, this is where I go or this is what I do. So what do you think the festivals specifically need to be looking at? I think with festivals it's such like a bigger space and there's a lot of similarities between obviously live music events on a smaller scale and festivals but the big difference is that the sites are normally so huge and you're kind of maybe left in the middle of a massive crowd and it's very easy to get overwhelmed so I do think signposting is key and letting people know where they can go prior to the festival so that's kind of like level of awareness and education maybe just saying we have a safe space tent we have a welfare tent that you can go to

this is where it is if something happens while you're on site you kind of have a map you know where to go um and i think as well festivals education about bystander awareness um so what does that mean what what is the education around bystander awareness because you might witness something happening what are you supposed to do? Yeah, so we would say kind of it's very, as Kate said, we're very like survivor-led approach. So I think if you see something happen to someone, just firstly checking in with them, checking they're okay,

helping them if they're feeling overwhelmed, guiding them outside of a crowd. But we would always say to not put yourself in any danger first. So it's kind of, you know, step in if you feel comfortable. And, you know, some people have come up with really good ideas about, you know, pretending that you're the person's friend or creating a physical barrier between the perpetrator and the victim and I think that those little things are just like really important in creating you know a community and being like we're here for each other if something happens to you. Okay I'm going to bring you back in here I've got to say there will be a lot of people whose kids will be going to

very first festival you know we've come out of the pandemic. GCSEs are over, A-levels. For a lot of young people, it might be a very exciting moment. We don't want to panic everybody because they are a great space and lots of fun is had at festivals. However, it'd be good maybe to give some basic tips on how we can ensure that we stay safe when we're there. Absolutely. I think the key is always is communication and trust in the festival and the festival environment that there are

things in place to ensure audience safety. So if at any stage you're feeling uncomfortable, going to any member of staff on site, security, and really asking for support where you need it. I think there's a lot of stigma around asking for help. And I think what we're trying to make very clear is it's really open, the conversation is open. So ensuring that people are aware that they can go to any point in the site, whether it's asking a bartender, or asking a volunteer, asking someone at welfare or even going to medical, that there are people on site there to support you. And so ensuring that and like Bea said, surrounding yourself with your friends, ensuring you know where your friends are, not putting yourself in

any danger. Yeah. So not walking off alone. But really sort of knowing and understanding where everything is signposted on the site of the festival. Brilliant. Thank you so much for joining me to talk about that, Kate and Bea. Lots of you getting in touch with your interests that you've adopted from your partners. Kate says, my husband was mad on bluegrass music when I met him 58 years ago. Gradually, I learned to love the music since we've gone to numerous bluegrass festivals in the UK and America. And for nearly 10 years, we've had our own band. My goodness. Alive and Picking. Hey, very good.

And someone else says, I was at the Hacienda. I was a Hacienda girl in 1994. Lucky you. And when a co-worker and potential BF, Simon, asked me to go out to the opera to watch the Magic Flute at the Palace Theatre, I was intrigued. I had a Julia Roberts pretty woman moment. Oh, we're're with you on this the opera scene not not the other thing uh we've been

together ever since and have two beautiful children and we still love going to the opera but are you still out raving that's what i want to know uh your thoughts 84844 on anything you're listening to on the show this morning someone else got in touch, Mary from Swindon to say, I saw Althea Gibson play in Manchester when my girls from school were ball girls at Didsbury Club. She was very impressive. Now, women who've suffered multiple miscarriages and stillbirths are at greater risk of stroke, according to new research published by the British Medical Journal.

The data looked at over 600,000 women around the world, and in particular women aged between 32 and 73 who were then followed up for an average of 11 years. Professor Geeta Mishra is from the University of Queensland School of Public Health. She's also the senior author on this project and she joins us now to tell us more. Geeta, welcome to Woman's Hour. Please give us more information about this research. How exactly did you gather the data? Okay, so this research is based on an interlaced consortium. So it started in 2012. We have, in the consortium itself, there were 27 studies, but eight of the studies contributed to this particular work. There were studies from seven countries, the UK, so you have the UK Biobank, the National Survey of Health and

Development study, which was the 1946 British Birth Cohort, also contributed to it. Studies from the US, Sweden, Netherlands, China and Japan. Were you aware of this potential link before you started the research? Yes, there was some mixed evidence between miscarriages and stillbirth with stroke, but the evidence wasn't robust. The other thing what we were able to do was to look at the numbers of miscarriages and the numbers of stillbirths and whether the more miscarriages you've had or the more stillbirths you've had, whether that increased your chance or your risk of getting stroke later in life. And what did you find out?

Well, Anita, what we found out is that, so before I talk about the risk, I just want people to know that on average, miscarriage is quite a common occurrence in about one in five women will experience miscarriage. But what is not so common is the repeated miscarriages. So three or more miscarriages is what we call recurrent. And about 1.5% of women will experience that. So that's something to keep in mind. The other thing also is in terms of stillbirth, 5% experience stillbirth, but less than 1% will experience two or more stillbirths, which is what we call recurrent. And so what we found is that women with recurrent

miscarriages or recurrent stillbirth, they're at higher risk of stroke, both non-fatal stroke and also fatal stroke later in life. The other thing also is well worth knowing is that for the non-fatal stroke, it happens usually for most women in the study from mid-50s onwards. And for fatal stroke, it was from mid-60s onwards. Do we know why there's a link? Good question. Really, it's because there is a lot of theory put forward forward and I think it is an active area of research. One of the things is that it could be the dysfunction of the endothelial cells and this is the cells that kind of control the way the blood flows in the system. There's also a possibility

of genetics. The same genes might increase your risk of miscarriage or stillbirth also increases your risk of stroke so that's again another possibility what we will be doing in the future is really try and unpick and see if we can find a good causal reason for increased risk of stroke i mean we, Gita, we don't want to unnecessarily alarm our listeners today. So how common actually is this and is there cause for concern at this point? Look, I think what we can take home from this is let this be like an early warning. It is the relationship for women who've had three or more miscarriages or two or more stillbirths is quite strong. So I think it's an evidence that we can't just

shove it under the carpet. It's a warning. The good news is that, you know, a lot of time these reproductive events happen to us when we are a lot younger and miscarriage and stroke, I mean, stroke happens when we are a little bit older. So, you know, because we followed the women for at least 11 years. So if you know that you've had recurrent of this event, you've got some time to really look at ways of reducing your risk of stroke. So talking, so women should be talking to their GPs and monitoring. Absolutely. And also, and this is for everybody, not only for women who are at risk of, you know, who've had recurrent miscarriages or stillbirth, is to adopt as healthy a lifestyle as possible,

you know, and so, and that will will reduce risk of stroke for all of us you know so we're looking at for instance if you're smoking stop smoking drink moderate amount of alcohol you know um and also eat healthy eat healthily do be physically active so gita what's the next step now that this link's been found you've done this research what happens now look what we really want to do is first of all unpick the mechanisms see exactly how does stillbirth and miscarriages gets under the skin to affect our risk of stroke i think understanding the mechanisms is very important and And the other thing that we will try and do is to really see how much it contributes to the risk of stroke, these reproductive events. And so try and see if we can get some sort of a calculator going for that.

Dr. Geeta Mishra, thank you for joining us and speaking to us on Woman's Hour this morning. Lots of you still getting in touch with the hobbies that you've adopted from your partners. Under my husband's influence, says Terry from South London, I have now a keen interest in rugby union and avidly follow the Six Nations Championship every year. Sadly, my husband has successfully resisted my attempts over 27 years of marriage to get him hooked on the Archers. What? Keep at him.

84844 is the number to text now as far as festivals go shetland's famous up heli our fire festival um has to be one of the most spectacular i hope i said that right i'll find out in a minute it takes place in january and remembers the vikings he used to rule the shetland island a thousand years ago warriors parade through the streets by torchlights as visitors from across the world gather to watch the spectacle and the day culminates with the dramatic burning of a replica Viking longship. But women and girls have never been allowed to take part in Lerwick,

which is the capital of Shetland, until that is now. It was announced earlier this week there will no longer be any gender restrictions. Joanne Adamson is a campaigner from the group Up Helly R for All and Amy Gere is coordinator of arts organisation Garda who looked at the equality of Up Helly R as one of their projects. I'm going to come to you, Amy, briefly. Tell us about Up Helly R and how it works.

Tell us a bit more about it. I'm fascinated. So Up Helly R, it's like a season in Shetland. It begins in January and ends in March. And there's 12 separate festivals across Isles. And Lerwick is by far the largest and the most famous. And you'll see it on the telly every year and it happens no matter what the weather so they're out in a blowing gale or a beautiful icy night but Lerwick is the only festival up until now to exclude women so I myself when I was 13

years old was in a festival in Yell Yale which is my uh where I came from in Little Island uh but up until this just this Wednesday women have been banned for taking part so um yeah it's a very visually spectacular festival as well. And why were women banned? What was the reason? Well I don't know I think you'll have to ask the men, but there was no good reason. There was really no good reason. It was often floated. The word tradition was used a lot, but the campaigners were not a fan of that excuse. So, yeah, there's really no reason. I'm going to bring Joanne in on this. Joanne, I need to congratulate you.

It's only been a thousand years, but it's happened. Progress has been made. You've been campaigning to get women and girls included in the Lerwick celebrations for years. How do you feel about it today? Oh, just ecstatic. It's just the best ever news. I actually don't know if I still believe it totally. It's just the best ever news. I just I actually don't know if I still believe it totally.

It's just fantastic. It's really fantastic for the little girls who are now able to go out in Uphillia with their dads, with their brothers. It's just absolutely fantastic. They'll never know that they were never allowed. It's just great. It just makes such a difference. So what was your experience when you were young then you obviously wanted to be part of it were you like amy just sort of on the sidelines watching and what did you see paint a picture of what what what you experienced as a young one i i just yeah we were actually just quite used to seeing the men uh being vikings but in later years i've got two daughters who are 16 in later years I was just

like well this isn't right and I was a host at the hall and I saw young girls just able to sit on the sidelines and not able to participate in the squads and I thought that wasn't right I saw the young musician of the year just having to sit on a bench while other boys her age were in squads, coming in with their musical instruments, having a party, asking her to dance. This is not right. This is just not good enough.

And no more, all change. So women will be in there. Is everyone happy about this? Is everyone happy about the change? Or do you think some noses will be put out of joint? I think we need to get behind this decision. I think everybody needs to just drop any aggression towards it. It's just such a fantastic thing. They'll see they've got absolutely nothing to fear and absolutely everything to gain for Shetland, for themselves. I've been asking

myself all day, what exactly have they lost with with this decision and I just can't see that they've lost anything. It's all to be gained. Amy there's been a long history of protest against women being excluded hasn't there? Yeah so GADA this year looked at well no it was last year our publication came out and it was actually our 2020 program was called women's work and we focused on this long history of activism and the labor all the hard work that the women have done over the years to try and get equality in this huge festival in shetland because of course this ripples out into other bits of our culture and our society and it's embarrassing as a as a passionate Shetland woman to to have to say oh yeah up hell yeah but oh they don't let

women in so uh we wanted to do this project and actually um it's a good year for this to have happened because it's 120 years this this year uh from the last from the first recorded protest that women did where they dressed in guys and they got into the festival but this was soon banned by the all male committee so

yeah 120 years but that's the first recorded of course there could have been protests before that point. Oh the early pioneers who went dressed up. I wonder if they put fake beards on as well to get in there. I wonder what their guises were. Explain a bit more about how it works, because there are different squads, aren't there?

There's a main Viking squad called Jarl. Yeah, so there's a Jarl squad. And I think if you can look up pictures online, please do, because it's visually very spectacular in detail and at a distance. So when you look close up every single year, these Vikings, the Jarl Squad, the main men, now main women too, will are dressed in their Viking costumes, which are designed, their new design every year. The craftsmanship in them is totally beautiful. They have etched helmets and new shield designs every year the craftsmanship in them is totally beautiful they have etched helmets and

new shield designs every year and it's always a surprise what colors they've gone for when they step out on this on this icy January day. And Joanne tell me a bit about your your what you will be doing in the next one or will you be involved because it's already been will women be involved with the next one as it's already been set up we hope so um we don't know what they're going to do exactly and what form it's going to take it's all very new there's news but my daughter's already asked to be in a squad one of her fellow 60 years and asked if she can be in the squad and i so hope that can happen because they've missed out on so much already. And that would just be lovely. But I will contribute in any way.

If somebody wants me back to be a host, I will do that. Oh, I'm sure they will. You're poised and ready. You've been ready your entire life. Joanne Adamson and Amy Gere, thank you so much for telling us all about Up Heliar, the Viking festival that takes place up in Shetland. So many messages coming through.

I'm sorry if I haven't managed to read all of them out, but someone has said here, my husband has been swimming at our local Lido for 18 years and I've mainly been sitting there on sunny days. I've started actually getting in and swimming this week. My husband is pleased, but I do hold him up, both leaving the house and cycling there, leave him to it. And that's from Carol. And I've him to it and that's from carol

and i've adopted my husband and family's love of golf uh very good and that's from a wife in surrey have a lovely weekend do join me tomorrow for weekend woman's hour that's all for today's woman's hour join us again next time what makes you feel physically and mentally stronger the act of skating that That's my zen. That's my relaxation time. That is the question I ask guests on my podcast to discover their secrets to health and happiness. I see going to bed at the right time

as an investment in tomorrow rather than a sacrifice for today. We'll get inspiration from their achievements and find out how they take care of their physical and mental health. I think it is really important for us to reflect on what have we missed, you know? The new series of the Joe X podcast from BBC Radio 4. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.