Woman's Hour - Amanda Abbington, Asma Khan, Bumps & Babies

Episode Date: March 1, 2019

The actress Amanda Abbington, who's well-known for her part in Sherlock, is now in a harrowing new play about teenage depression. It's called The Son and has just opened at the Kiln Theatre in North London. It's about 16 year old Nicolas who is going through a difficult time after his parents’ divorce. He misses school, lies and self-harms. Amanda plays his mother and joins us in the studio. Also with us is Dr Bernadka Dubicka, Chair of the Faculty of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry from Royal College of Psychiatrists. She talks to us about some of the important themes in the play.We speak to Harriet Wistrich, the lawyer of Sally Challen, the woman in prison for killing her husband. Yesterday her murder conviction was quashed by the Court of Appeal. She now faces a retrial. Her lawyer wants her conviction downgraded to manslaughter because they say she was a victim of coercive control. Asma Khan calls herself a "house cook" but she's set up a central London restaurant which is completely run by women. Her rotas are made up of four hour shifts so her staff can combine work with family commitments. It just makes sense she says and helps women enter the workplace. Asma's new cookery book is a bestseller on Amazon. She joins us to talk about food, work and family. More ‘Bump, Birth and Beyond’. We catch up once more with our group of listeners who are telling us about their new babies. They're now one years old. We hear from the dads today, and one of the grannies, to find out how the new babies have affected their mental health.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Friday the 1st of March. It's said the Asian restaurant business is entirely dominated by men. Enter Asma Khan and her Darjeeling Express. How she and her staff of women managed to run a restaurant and their families. The four women we've been following through their pregnancies and births now have children who are a year old. How are the fathers managing their part in their baby's first year? And a new play called The Sun opened this week at the Kiln in North London. Amanda Abington plays the mother of a deeply depressed

adolescent boy. Now, as I'm sure you've heard in the news or maybe read in the papers, Sally Challen's appeal against her conviction for the murder of her husband Richard nine years ago was overturned yesterday in the Court of Appeal. She was not

released from jail where she's been for nearly nine years years but the three judges who ruled her conviction was unsafe in the light of new evidence which was not available at the time of her first trial have ordered a retrial which is expected to take place later this year. Harriet Wistreich is Mrs Challen's lawyer. Why, if the appeal court quashed the murder conviction, does there have to be a new trial? It's really a question for the CPS, sorry, the Crown Prosecution Service, who were represented at the appeal. They were asked whether they wanted a retrial and they said yes. And the the court decided to go ahead with it it can happen

in any case um and uh obviously it's very disappointing uh that she can't be released i mean she's served the equivalent of 18 years fixed term sentence essentially um she's clearly no danger to the public at all. This was a kind of, you know, the circumstances of this offence were totally related to the coercive and controlling relationship. All the family on all sides of the family support Sally. There is no one who wants her to face a retrial apart from the Crown Prosecution Service. Some of her supporters appeared so upset at the result, the ones that we saw on television last night.

How personally disappointed were you that she wasn't released? It is disappointing. I've been prepared for it because it's always something that can happen in these sorts of cases. I think her family were very upset about it but we had to brace ourselves for the possibility we might not succeed I mean we also have to hold on to the fact that this is a really important victory and that she's been given a second chance so they're celebrating that and we should celebrate that

because she's really moved things forward. The family have moved things forward. The campaign, the Justice for Women campaign have moved things forward by bringing into public light an understanding of coercive and controlling relationships and how that mechanism of power over an individual relationship can grind somebody down. What's interesting is that so many victims of coercive control have been so inspired by her fight for justice. So many women have come forward to support the campaign. And I think that's why they, whilst they were delighted that she's been given a second chance, they were disappointed not to see her walk free. Now, you've obviously spoken to her.

What was her reaction to the result? Sally's been absolutely in a kind of high state, really, of anxiety. She's been waiting for this for nearly, well, since her conviction, the chance to appeal. And, you know, she was very tearful, really, in the few weeks leading up to this and anxious. I think she's still in a bit of shock. I mean, you know, so relieved that she's been successful, kind of dreading the idea of having to go through a whole retrial again. But fortunately, she seems to have some good support in the prison she's at. And we will be applying for bail as soon as possible. We have to get some reports for that.

And hopefully, you know, she will meet all the criteria that she's not a dangerous person and can be released on bail. Now, her two sons have never shied away from the fact that it was a brutal killing, that their father was killed by their mother. But they've been tremendously supportive of her and her case. How important has that support been to the progress of the case I think it's been critically important um I think that that the fact that everybody um who who knew Sally and Richard even Richard's best mate um you have all had sympathy for Sally but in particular the two boys who grew up in that relationship um I mean, they obviously have lost a father and, you know, whatever his behavior was like, he was also their father.

And they've always said they loved him. Yes. And that's been part of the story. So it's very painful, but they absolutely are desperate for their mothers to be free they understand you know and and what again what i think david has said very eloquently when he's spoken on the media is that it was only uh when uh the word coercive control came about and he began to understand that he felt that there was suddenly an explanation for why his mother had acted in the way she had. Before that, it just felt just so difficult to really encompass or understand it. And once you had that explanation

and you could fit together the whole pattern of the controlling relationship over a period of time and understand that despite the brutality of the killing, in a sense, you can put together a story that makes sense as to why she acted and was driven at that point to do what she did. Now, the papers are all describing yesterday's result as a legal landmark. Would you describe it in such strong terms? I think it's very important.

Unfortunately, we can't talk about what the judgment says because there is going to be a retrial. So we can't go into exactly what the judgment says. But I think what is really important is that we have got coercive control on the map. People are now aware of it. They're aware that this was a factor in the relationship. And however it comes into the final judgment, which we can't talk about, it's now there. Now people know about it. Now lawyers know about it. Now psychiatrists will know about it. Now those in the criminal justice system will know about it. So it shouldn't be ignored again in a case. And now understanding that that a battered a woman who is abused is not necessarily somebody who has black eyes and broken arms it can be somebody whose whose whole liberty is restricted in a whole series of ways which may be purely or mainly psychological financially controlled in in a whole series of ways that we hope that that greater understanding will mean that there will be less miscarriages of justice in the future. You said that she'd had a lot of support from grounds of appeal have been or are about to be submitted.

One case has been is given the go ahead. And there's there's a few more in the pipeline. the whole thing because uh unfortunately women are still regularly being convicted of murder in circumstances where they are also victims of abuse and we want to understand what the mechanism is i think there are probably dozens of women who who are serving life sentences who who um you know have killed in circumstances where there has been some form of abuse, whether it's coercive and controlling behaviour or other forms of abuse going back to childhood or whatever. And unfortunately, the criminal justice system judges women much more severely who are violent than men, in my opinion,

and they are more readily convicted, more readily they're pursued by the Crown Prosecution Service than men who CPS sometimes accept pleas for. Harriet Wistreich, thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning and we will follow the case very closely. Thank you. Now the critics universally have raved about a new play which opened at the Kiln in North London this week. It's called The Son and it's the third in a trilogy about family life by the French playwright Florian Zeller. The first was The Father, then The Mother and now The Son.

And whilst it's beautifully directed and performed, it is not an easy play to experience. The Son is an adolescent. His parents have separated. His father has a new relationship and a new baby. And the boy, it's discovered, has been skipping school, self-harming and is deeply depressed. Well, how accurate a reflection is the play of a dangerously troubled teenager. Well, Dr. Bernadka Dubitska is chair of the Faculty of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry from the Royal College of Psychiatrists and joins us from Salford. Amanda Abington plays the boy's mother. Amanda, I have to say, as a mother, I've found the play incredibly difficult to watch.

What's it like for you, night night to play the mother um well we we're lucky that we have a cast and a director and a crew that make it very easy to do the play because um you have to come off stage and let it go um and you know theater as an actress and it's not therapy so so you're telling a story and while it is exhausting, and particularly for some of the other cast members, it is a story. And so we try not to take it off stage. But yes, it's hard going, but I think it's a play that needs to be seen, certainly.

Bernadke, I know you haven't seen the play, which I have, and obviously Amanda knows it intimately. But knowing what you know about the play, which I have, and obviously Amanda knows it intimately. But knowing what you know about the play, where a child is not going to school, is not seeing friends, is being destructive, throwing things around, is self-harming. How accurately would you say the play portrays a child's growing despair? Good morning. Well, I haven't seen the play, but I had a long conversation about it yesterday with your producer,

and I was really struck by how much it resonated with me and hearing the stories of so many young people over the years. So I worked in an inpatient unit with quite disturbed young people, and many of the experiences they have do seem to resonate very much with what's portrayed in this play. But before I say anything else, I just want to say that the young people I've seen in the units where I've worked have had particularly troubled backgrounds and difficult experiences,

but most young people will come through these difficult transitions of parental divorce and separation and they'll be fine and they'll do OK. But some young people, depending on their circumstances, may struggle like the boy in this play. Amanda, the mother's response to his expression of suicidal thoughts, which he does say, I want it to end. Her response is, oh, you should never say that. You know, you have your whole life in front of you. How true do you reckon that is of what the average mother would say well i don't yeah i was thinking about because i've got a 13 year old son and a 10 year old daughter and i was thinking you

know i i just want them to be happy and so the idea of them being anything other than happy just makes me feel like i've been a redundant parent or i can't reach out to them so i think you know there is that kind of suppression of like no no you have to be okay you have to be i don't think she has the coping skills to to help him and we talked about the play actually we talked about whether she suffers from depression as well because it is a kind of one third of um depression is hereditary apparently so so um we talked about whether she's actually her coping mechanisms aren't working. And so the only thing she can do is say, I love you. Please don't say that to me.

You're going to be fine because that's the only way she can really cope with it. But she's also very unhappy because she feels she's been betrayed by her husband. Yeah. Yeah. I think she's quite lost. You know, she's a lost character and she just wants to be with her son. And when her son moves out, she feels like she doesn't have anything left. And I think that spirals her a bit and and uh and she finds it very difficult she finds that she starts to find her life very difficult and and challenging but as amanda says the boy goes from his mother's home to his father where his father is living with his new wife and and little

baby and there is a strong indication, I felt, in the play that his despair is a result of the breakup of his family. How common is it for a teenager to be so distressed by divorce? I think it depends very much on the individual circumstances. From what I hear, what we don't know in the play is what happened in his early life. So we don't know anything about his development. We don't know about vulnerability factors, for example.

Was he always a very anxious child? We don't know what his parents' relationship was like in the early years. What was he exposed to? Was there a lot of trauma? So it very much depends on what's happened throughout a child's lifetime and we would ask about that in detail as psychiatrists. But can I just pick up on a really important point that Amanda made? It's so, so important that we think about what's going on for parents as well. I use the same analogy, for example, when you're sitting on the plane,

they talk about making sure the parent puts the oxygen mask on first and then looks after their child. And it's the same with depression. If a parent's struggling, if they're not coping, they really need to get help for themselves. Otherwise, they're not in a place where they can help their child. So I think that's a really important point to make. And the second point to make from what Amanda was saying

was that often it is difficult for people to hear what their children are saying. Sometimes it's hard for professionals, and it's really important that we do listen to what's going on for them. We ask them about self-harm, and ultimately, if they're self-harming, we do need to ask them, have they thought about taking their lives as well because there's no evidence to show that that actually distresses a child but it can really help them to open up and talk about their feelings. Amanda, what do you reckon the play does reveal about what his earlier life was?

I mean they refer to him as smiling and a happy little child but the father has problems and clearly had problems with his with his own father yeah is there depression on both sides yeah well i mean we talked about again we talked about that within the rehearsal period and we think you know that yeah i mean pierre nicholas's father does have a very uh estranged and he did have an estranged and and horrible relationship with his father his father just didn't give him any encouragement and didn't look after him and didn't nurture him and so there's a knock-on effect and we we sort of think that maybe that's the same thing with

Nicholas that he doesn't just he's not there and he he finds out that he's just there too late and so um yeah he he has problems the mother has problems, and nobody's really communicating. And, of course, that backfires onto the son with devastating consequences. And, Bernadette, the father, when he realises his son is still not going to school, just loses it with him and screams at him and says, you know, you have to go to school. How absolutely wrong is that? If you discover your child is having those kind of problems, you don't shout, you don't scream, you don't push?

Well, obviously it's not a good thing to do. However, I guess you can understand his frustration and despair as well. And, you know, parents live day in, day out with the feelings they're struggling with, but also feeling desperate and unable to help their children. And sometimes they do explode in those sorts of ways. And that's obviously not helpful, but it's important to move on from that. And it's important they seek professional help so professionals can help them to negotiate their feelings

and learn how to best help the young person. And we do see that response sometimes when young people serve harm. Parents are so desperate and so upset and traumatised, their first response is often anger. And obviously that's not a helpful response. So the best thing that parents can do is just listen and ask and find out why this is happening and then seek help. The playwright, Bernadke, has said that he wants people to question what young people might be going through as a result of seeing this play and you have to wonder you know when we talk about the mental health of young people so much now is it still common to just think oh they'll be all right let

them cope on their own? I think it's becoming less so but certainly you know everybody used to talk about it's the hormones the teenage hormones it's normal to feel depressed when you're a teenager and certainly it's absolutely the normal experience of part of human life for all of us to have bad days when we feel fed up and irritable but that's a very different thing to being depressed that takes over your life impacts on everything going on around you so it's really important to make that distinction and unfortunately as we know from numerous surveys that there does seem a lot of evidence now that depression's on the rise in our young people but so is self-harm particularly in older adolescent girls so i guess this place so girls more than boys in terms of actual self-harm we've

had an absolute escalation of self-harm in older teenage girls but for boys are still at greatest risk of completed suicide although thankfully that's still a rare event amanda what are you hoping as you perform this play night after night that the slightly shattered audience sitting in front of you is taking away from it well i mean i talk to people after the show and they all say you know know, ones who have children, they'll say, well, I'm going to make sure I go home and give my child a big hug and make sure I'm there to listen and be aware of trigger points within, you know, within their lives.

And I think it's just about being more aware of your children and watching them and making... Because I think social media has a huge effect on it and I think you know more so now than in my day um there is a pressure on young adults and adolescents now that there wasn't really when i was growing up and i think if you know as a parent i'm more aware of that and i think people coming to see this play leave feeling that they want to go home and hug their children tighter and make sure that this doesn't happen in their family. And Bernadka, if you observe any of the things that we've discussed that this child shows, where as a parent do you go for help,

even if the child is over 16 and officially no longer your responsibility? Well, the first thing is lots of online resources. So the Royal College of Psychiatrists have got an online resource called minded.org. Lots of information there and also on the Royal College of Psychiatrists website. Young Minds is another very helpful resource with a helpline for parents as well. And then if you're seriously concerned about your child, go and speak to your GP is the first point of call and it might be completely appropriate then to refer to more specialist services. There's

different services depending on the area you're in as well. Well Dr Bernadke Dubitska and Amanda Abington, thank you both very much indeed for being with us this morning. We would like to hear from you if you've experienced what we've been talking about you can send us an email

and the sun continues at the Kiln Theatre. It's in Kilburn in North London until Saturday the 6th of April. Thank you. Now, still to come in today's programme, Asma Khan, founder of Darjeeling Express, at a time when Asian restaurants are said to be dominated by men,

hers is entirely run by women. And the final episode of the serial, Maya Angelou's A Song Flung Up to Heaven. And don't forget, if you miss the live programme, you can always catch up by downloading the BBC Sounds app. You can search for Women's Hour there and you'll find all our episodes. You can click on an episode to listen straight away or you can download it, of course, for later.

Now, it's nearly two years since we asked for volunteers who were pregnant to take part in a series that's become known as Bump, Birth and Beyond. What's it like to go through the experience of bringing a new baby into the family? Well the babies are now a year old and earlier in the week we heard from the four women's respective partners about their first year. Abbey Hollick's been speaking to the men in the group and one of the grandmothers about how fatherhood influences a man's mental health. To be honest, I had a lot more mental health problems beforehand. And now I think I go, well, okay, now I have this other person to think about. So I can't really wallow in my own self-pity and think about whether,

you know, whatever it was, people don't like me or, you know, I'm just depressed or my life isn't going well. It's just like, I don't know, for me, it's just kind of shaken me up to be like, okay, you have this job to do. You have these people relying on you. But I think it is the grind. And I think it is, you know, looking at your partner and thinking like, man, I wish I could do more for you. You know, we used to do so much nice, fun things together. And I used to, you know, looking at your partner and thinking like, man, I wish I could do more for you. You know, we used to do so much nice, fun things together. And I used to, you know, treat you to dinners or even cook dinner, you know. And now it's just kind of like we're just doing the same things every day.

And you kind of feel like I wish I could be more there for her, basically. And Phil, how about you? Has having Ruby affected your mental health at all? I think overall just that warmness in your heart that you get from walking through the door and seeing that smiley face when she says hiya dada when I walk through the door and things like that you just things that used to bother me or worry me or I may have lost a little bit of sleep over have now gone to be honest. You know, Laura and Ruby go to bed. I spend hours then tidying up and we've got a table.

I put all the figures in the right place. Knowing that within five seconds of the following day, it'll all be on the floor again. But, you know, I just do all these daft things that I do every night. So, Jane, having time stretched and time stolen from you, from the little person, is that something that you can relate to and has that affected your mental health at all? We have made a choice to support Rowan in the way that we do.

It has impacted on our lives. We haven't got the sort of spontaneity we might once have had to just decide we were going to go away and we're retired and things, so that's sort of what you expect. But the payoff is just so wonderful we choose it every time and what about offloading with with mates do you have a dad network i have a few people who close friends i mean obviously friends who don't have kids i you know you just try to talk to them about things and they just kind of glaze over and you just assume you're boring them to death you know know, people at work will say, hey, how was your weekend?

I looked and I'm like, I'm not going to go into this. It was fine. You know, I'm going to tell you about who wet the bed or puked on me or whatever. But I think generally, you know, with the dad side, it's like you're just expected to moan about how you can't do this or that or anymore. And, you know, to sit there and be like, I came home and my child had this glowing face and I felt so warm. It's just not really something that guys do, or at least my friends or people I know.

So there's more of a culture of moaning about what you're missing out on now? Yeah, it's just one of those things where it's like, hey, you're expected to just be not enjoying it, and oh, it's so hard, and I wish I could be out you know playing football or whatever it is you know you you were used to do or playing in a band you know people are used to me in a band with it's like oh you don't get to go do those kind of things anymore and it's a weird one. Ramphil with bonding it's clear that you've bonded so beautifully with Ruby but has it grown or did you do that skin to skin at the beginning and feel it instantly?

I think the skin to skin thing was a big thing I think within the first couple weeks I was holding her and she fell asleep on my chest and she slept there all night it was really magical for me and there's times when Laura's doing something or in the other room and I've got Ruby and within five minutes she's asleep on my chest Laura's like how did you make how did you get her to do that how do you get her to fall asleep so quick and I think it's because around mine please I think it was because of that early sort of bonding that we did and the fact that first words was dad was great does anyone feel comfortable to admit that the bond took a while to come or is still growing because you know

they're not even talking yet it is a weird situation because you're just kind of there as a caretaker in the beginning and just keep it alive keep it warm keep it fed i don't think until about six months would did i feel here's the personality here's sort of the the giving back thing not that i that's why i had children is like to get for myself, but it's just when they kind of finally come out of their shell and you see a bit of their personality, you see who they're going to be, then you feel the bond. But before that, yeah, I feel like with Rudy,

it was maybe a bit longer this time just because it was like more people to worry about, more things to do. And I guess I didn't have all that time to sort of just hang out just with her, which I did with Annie. That makes sense. Yeah. And Jane, what did you expect from bonding with a grandchild? And what's it been like?

I mean, we have really bonded with her. I don't know whether it's a closer bond than it would be if Rowan had a partner or not. It's simpler in the sense that I feel I can help Rowan a lot, probably more than I would if she had a partner or not. It's simpler in the sense that I feel I can help Rowan a lot, probably more than I would if she had a partner, because I think we'd feel that we had to be more careful, because I would hate to feel that, you know, that a partner felt that we were casting any kind of aspersions on them, not doing enough, or feeling that they were struggling or something,

whereas there isn't any of that, basically. You know,onan i can she's my daughter you know we can ask her and she would tell us if we were overstepping the mark or anything so i have to just say that um kit's first word was dada as well and she hasn't got one so i hate to undermine that well well well it backfired for me because uh ruby said dada and my heart melted it was warm it was great and then the following morning at four o'clock in the morning it was dad dad dad dad laura says she's saying your name you're the one who's gonna hear me and so two relationships how's the first year impacted on your relationship with jen andrew it was great because we got a chance to go see a concert together just the two of us like after about eight months. What? Yeah I know.

You went out? I know we almost didn't like it came up to the wire I was like no we have to go and we had so much fun and it was like oh yeah we do actually really like each other. You only remember that out the house, out the kitchen, away from the washing up. And Ben, how about you? How's it impacted on your relationship? Because you had a very long time together right before having a baby. In a lot of respects, it hasn't made a huge amount of difference. I guess because we've known each other for so long, it's sort of almost a natural progression and we've settled into our roles fairly well. The impact has been on the things you'd expect it to be on getting out the house going for dinner I'm describing as kind of

evolution rather than revolution when we met a year ago all us new mothers had a very honest chat about sex and no one was ready to be having sex yet a year on, how would you say the exhaustion of having a baby has impacted on your sex life? I think for us, obviously, early days it was an issue, obviously, because Laura was still healing up from having the stitches. But Laura's really taken to motherhood like I could have never imagined, to be honest. She's taken to it like a duck to water. She absolutely loves it. And it's always been me

who's been pushing to have children all these years and Laura's now sort of said, you know, I love Ruby to bits, I'd love to have a second one. So at the moment it's being judged by time of the month. Fingers crossed. Cheers. And Andrew? Yeah, we're tired.

Ben? Very tired. cross and and andrew yeah we're tired ben very tired no but it's good to hear that fathers are just as tired because i think a lot of mothers can feel in their head and maybe i should be having more sex but actually whenever i have these conversations with my partner he's tired too and do you have the kind of argument on repeat who's the most exhausted the never-ending list there's 20 things on this list and i've done 18 of them um ben not really no i think partly because we've got quite different personalities um i'm not in the slightest bit competitive so i'm happy to be beaten in just about everything judging what you've done off the list by the number of activities you've done probably isn't a great measure actually you could be loading the dishwasher as a favorite you know actually it's really quick and quite easy whereas you might do something that is only one thing but

if you try assembling an ikea flat pack when you're sleep deprived and have been at work all day actually that's got to be worth more points surely if you're going down that route so it seems to come out in the wash largely phil who's packing the baby wipes your family? Is it a fair share of domestic load between you and...? I'd say Laura was doing more than me because she'd kill me if I'd said otherwise on the radio. But no, I mean, obviously during the day, Laura does a lot of the tasks. In the evening, when I come home,

I tend to spend most of the time with Ruby, but Laura still does like the feeding and things like that. So, yeah, I think sometimes she thinks she'd like me to get involved more and and do more stuff because obviously she's all day with the baby and then I come home from work and probably doesn't appreciate sometimes I've had a difficult day at work and that sometimes finding the time to do work and finding the time to do jobs as I say to come home look after the baby take the dogs for a walk try and do whatever jobs I can and then when weekend comes when we it'd be nice to sort of just have some days in and do stuff and because Laura tends to be in the house

most of the week she wants to go out so jump in the car and I'm driving here they're everywhere so it's sometimes it's just finding the time to do stuff as well and last question to all of you how would you say kind of fatherhood's represented in society you know on tv you can get the kind of dumb dad who would never know how to which way the nappy went and would never know how to make up a bottle or you get the kind of superstar hero dad like wow he's got his baby in a sling and he took his own baby to the swings. How do you see fatherhood? Yeah, no, I think you're right. I think when I tried to read books initially or talk to people,

it was kind of like, oh, the dumb fumbling dad, you know, and all the books were really basic and it'd be like, why don't you wash the dishes for your pregnant wife? That would be a nice thing to do. You know, these kind of like things that, and I think sometimes the bar is really low for men. It's like, oh, he took the kids out by himself. What a, you know, he's a saint, you know, and even especially from the older generation, it's like, oh, your father never, you know, lifted a finger for you. And I did everything.

And now that you do something so basic or simple for your own child, or like, remember to change them once or twice a day it's like you're the superhero so you know I think men certainly the people that I'm friends with and hang around men are just really expected to share half and half and I think that's important. And Phil have you experienced any dad privilege? Yeah I mean I carried Ruby in the sling I've pushed the pram around and things like that so I think a lot of as was mentioned before the older generation probably have a different insight into things because I mean I'm one of four kids and my mum was a full-time housewife and my dad went out to work and I think that mentality probably still is

in there in a lot of the older generation where with some of the younger people it's a bit more accepted. What's it like for you Jane when you're out and about with the baby? How are grannies treated? Grandparents in books are portrayed as incredibly elderly. They've all got walking... And grandfather's the same, you know, and my husband and I. I don't think we're quite like that. And most grandparents now are very involved with grandchildren

in a way that was more, I think, than it was the case for my generation. And any dads had any comments from family members or people in cafes? I had a situation where my parents were over for Christmas and Jen, again, was eight months pregnant. So I was putting the laundry on and my mum said to Jen, oh he does laundry too and I just thought, oh no, I've got to get out of here before the fisticuffs start going because it was just like, oh he does it

all, doesn't he? And looking at this massive pregnant woman, it's just such a double standard I thought, which was just like really telling. The things have changed, I guess, hopefully. So it sounds like you all do more than your own dads did. That's definitely what my mother would say. Phil?

Yeah, I would probably say so, because I know how to cook and my dad can do toast. I think that's it. And you can hear the other episodes of Bump Birth and Beyond on the website when we met the mothers at 33 weeks pregnant and then again with their eight-week-old babies. And also on the Women's Hour website, there's an article where three fathers share eight things they've learned during the first year of being fathers.

Now, it's generally assumed that the Asian restaurant trade is dominated by men as owners, chefs and waiters. Asma Khan bucks that trend. She calls herself a house cook, but her Indian restaurant, Darjeeling Express, is run entirely by women and the shift system is organised so that they can combine work and family life. She's also published a recipe book, Asma's Indian Kitchen. Asma, I know you never learned to cook when you were younger. What was your role in the family kitchen at home? It was just basically to eat.

I was given different portions of food and asked to taste whether it tasted right. My best part, the bit I loved the most was when, you know, big desserts like heat and halwa were made. That, you know, you have to have several tastings of that. I enjoyed that a lot. So why did you finally learn to cook? I learned to cook. I moved to this country. I had an arranged marriage. I didn't have a lot of time been meeting my husband and moving to Cambridge. And my husband, you know, very liberal person told me, Oh, you please don't need to cook. I'm going to look after you. And I thought,

this is so cool. I've never seen a man cooking in to cook. I'm going to look after you. And I thought, this is so cool. I've never seen a man cooking in my family. This is going to be very exciting. He didn't tell me his cooking skills are very limited and his repertoire is one chicken curry. So yeah, I moved to this country and I found it difficult. I came to Cambridge in a very cold winter when the river froze. And I'm that pre-internet generation from India

where you would see films, occasional films on screen. But we didn't have internet or television, so I found seeing trees without leaves such a shock. So it was all very bare and very cold, and I figured I had to cook because I could not change anything else. And you started organizing supper clubs in your home. What happened at the clubs when they first started? I wasn't even sure how people would respond.

I was, you know, very nervous. And I thought people would think this is like, oh, this is not a very nice experience. Everyone loved it. I figured that, you know, if I cooked the way I would cook for, you know, my family meal, and people will come around on the table and eat more than, you know, I enjoyed the cooking, but I enjoyed watching people eat more. That excited me for people to eat a family meal put together. it's not like you know you have to order from a menu everything comes in large platters you share things and I love watching people talk to each other because you know London is a great city people are you know well-traveled they love food so these people who gather around the table were all

similar mindset they're taking a big chance of turning up to a stranger's house. But how did the family respond to the house regularly filling up with women, cooks and diners? They hated it. Of course, my husband never saw it because I did behind his back. I kind of lied that, you know, I was doing this. I didn't tell him anything. So house was very clean when he came back, suspiciously clean. I'd scrubbed it. My kids hated it, but for a long time kept quiet because they could see how much I enjoyed it.

Then eventually they really kind of protested and I had to stop. And so what was it that prompted you to turn what you'd been doing into a proper business and have a restaurant? I, you know, once I realized that I had to leave the sanctuary of my own house, that then it became a reality that this is a business. Somehow, you know, you fool yourself. And this is a lot to do with, you know, how a lot of women are, that, you know, I'm not taking a big risk. I'm just doing this for fun.

And this is just very sad because, you know, we lack the confidence, and I lack the confidence in the safety of my own house. I saw this as low risk. You know, going out into the heart of Soho and then serving that same food and billing them and, you know, people reviewing you, writing about you, talking about you. That's a different ballgame. And how did you get to the point where you said to yourself, OK, this restaurant is going to be run by women. And we'll make it possible to run the business and run our families. I can try and lie now and say, oh, I always planned it this way.

I didn't. It just seemed the most natural way to do it. These are the same women who came and helped me in the supper clubs from 2012 onwards. Part-time, coming in, helping me here and there, you know, eating the food, the leftovers, there used to be always, you know, I always over cater. So there was so much leftover. And then, you know, it just seemed natural to continue the same tradition. And because we always worked on a kind of shift pattern, people rocked up when they could. It made sense, you know, I didn't understand why I had to rota in someone for 16 hours.

That's cruel. There's been so much publicity about the Asian restaurant trade, about the decline of the curry house. What needs to change to make it better? Because yours seems to work extremely well. Yes, and I hope that a lot of the male restaurant owners and chefs look at us. We're doing fine. We're successful. I'm on Netflix. You know, it's not the end of the world. It is, you know, if the food is good enough at home, if your wife, mother and sister's food, you know, is good enough for you, why isn't it good enough

for your guests in your restaurant? There is a huge cultural bias. And, you know, I hear people saying, oh, the hours are very long. I don't want my, they don't have to be long. And, you know, you just split it up into shifts. You know, your, the wife or mother can go home in the afternoon. You know, this is not brain surgery. You can get someone else to come and do stuff. It's not the end of the world. And one of the really interesting things about you is that you are the second daughter in your family. There are no sons. How is that motivated?

No, no, I do have a brother who people don't know. I have a brother who can... I didn't know about him. Nobody talks about him. He's a wonderful soul and tolerates, you know, being dominated by two sisters before him. It is... The thing is that, you know, being dominated by two sisters before him. It is, the thing is that, you know, there is a huge, huge, you know, gender preference in our culture for boys.

And, you know, when the first child turns out to be a girl, even though there's disappointment, but because it's a child, you know, often first grandchild or first child in the family, people are okay. They're happy. But there's always that thing, ah, next time there's going to be a boy. And then that next time is not a boy. It's a girl.

See, no, I can't remember the time that someone came and told me that everyone lamented, your birth, you just know it. And, you know, I knew that. How did you know it? Well, I mean, much later, whenever, I was very naughty.

I was a tomboy. I got into a lot of trouble. And every time I got into trouble, all the children, the servants' children would tell me, oh, everyone cried when you were born. They're right. You know, you really are trouble. They wept when you were born. So I used to take them to my mother and say, this is what he said.

My mother said, he's lying. So I would let him go. Usually it was all the, you know, boys I would beat at cricket and boxing. They hated losing to me. And of course I would gloat. And this was a thing that was always thrown at me, that, you know, everyone cried when you were born. And yet now with all of that, you reject the title chef.

Yes. And you call yourself a home cook. Yes, because I, you know, I don't, you know, I'm a doctor. I've got a PhD. I've, you know, it's a degree I've qualified. A chef's qualification, you know, I'm a doctor. I've got a PhD. I've, you know, it's a degree. I've qualified. A chef's qualification, you know, people go through culinary school. My knife skills, you know, you want to run away when I'm cutting anything. Everything's flying everywhere.

I don't, you know, I didn't train to be a chef. I don't want to be called, you know, take a title on because it's not required. And I also think that, you know, I want to honour home cooks. This is, you know, the very beginning of my cookbook as well. You know, we honour the cook in the house who's the woman. And I have been looking at your cookbook this morning and I have finally learned how to correctly caramelise onions. So thank you very much, Ashla.

Let the fat get really, really hot. Dip it in when it sizzles. In they go and I will brown them. So, Asma Khan, thank you for Let the fat get really, really hot. Dip it in when it sizzles. In they go. And I will brown them. So, Asma Khan, thank you for that. My family will be very grateful. Thank you for being with us. Thank you very much.

I was talking to Asma Khan. Now, lots of you got in touch about the impact of divorce on adolescent mental health. Some of you had personal experience. Jacqueline tweeted, the story you're currently running about family breakup, teenage self-harm, father's affair and behaviour is incredibly resonant of my own experience in recent years. Heartbreaking. Someone who didn't want us to use a name said, your piece today is not at all helpful as it's almost impossible to get any

help for yourself or your child at a time of extreme stress due to family breakup impossible i've been through all this and have the scars and wounds and so do my children you should be attacking the issues of no help not preaching to get help. If this sounds bitter, I am. AP tweeted, listening to you now, memories of the anxiety created by having a now grown up and well son who self-harmed and made attempts on his life. To be honest, in my recent professional experience, the resources families need are still sparse. And if you have been affected by anything we talked about today, don't forget we do have links on the Women's Hour website where you can get, I hope, advice and support. And then when I talked to Asma Khan about her London restaurant,

which is completely run by women, Bob tweeted, Over the years, as a customer, I've been in many South Asian restaurants, and I can't recall ever seeing a woman working in any capacity in one. But a few of you got in touch to tell us about other such restaurants. Richard emailed, There is an amazing business run and owned by an Asian woman in Ripon, North Yorkshire. It's called Reality. And Robin emailed, don't forget to mention the women-only restaurant in Edinburgh, the Punjabi Junction. Set up as a social enterprise, it encourages Asian women who

otherwise tend to stay within the home to come and meet others and cook wonderful home cooking, great food. And lots of you liked hearing from the Bump Birth and Beyond fathers. Kirsty tweeted, really enjoying the chat about fatherhood and grandparenting on Women's Hour this morning. So rare to hear honest conversations about the experiences of being a parent from men. And Anna agreed. Wonderful dad stories on Woman's Hour again now. So glad we're finally hearing these voices and experiences. Stories of mental health, but also the experience of developing the bond. Now do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour.

That's at four o'clock tomorrow afternoon. You can hear the 17-year-old national youth champion boxer, Simran Kaur. Her family didn't want her to fight, but they're now her biggest fans. And Eli Radinger, the former lawyer who gave up a legal career to study wolves and apparently likes to kiss them. That's four o'clock tomorrow afternoon. Join me then if you can. Bye-bye. Did you know that technology can make us kinder to one another? Did you hear about the diver who walked out of the sea onto a Portuguese beach, dragging the internet behind him? Did you realize

that how you speak to the little robot helper in your house might cement age-old stereotypes for decades to come. I'm Alex Kretosky, and those are just some of the stories that we've looked at in The Digital Human, the podcast that explores what it means to be human in the digital age. If you want to hear more, and I guarantee we will surprise you, come check us out exclusively on BBC Sounds. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.