Woman's Hour - Amanda Abbington, Crime Fiction, Asbestos in Make-up and Sock Wars

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

Amanda Abbington joins Anita Rani to talk about her new role in Tawni O’Dell’s play When It Happens To You. Amanda plays Tara, a mother who is desperately trying to hold her family together after her daughter is brutally attacked. She discusses playing a mother whose own trauma is triggered by her daughter’s experiences and how a culture of shame can lead to women’s silence.In the latest in our series on ‘genre fiction’, we turn to the UK’s most popular genre: crime fiction. Jane Casey is the creator of the award-winning and gritty Maeve Kerrigan detective series, most recently appearing in A Stranger in the Family. Janice Hallett has been dubbed the 'Queen of cosy crime' for her unconventional and popular epistolary style mystery books, including her new novel The Examiner. They talk to Anita about the evolution of women as murderers and sleuths in crime fiction, and whether crime can ever be 'cosy'.Is there asbestos in make-up? The new Radio 4 series Talc Tales investigates questions about the safety of talc in make-up and cosmetics after women diagnosed with cancer have launched court cases against some cosmetic companies, claiming products are contaminated with asbestos. Anita is joined in the studio by BBC journalist Phoebe Keane to hear what she found while making the series.For a while now there has been a war going on social media over the length of your socks. If you are a millennial you are most likely wearing ankle socks. Whereas Gen-Z are hiking them right up to their knees. Anita delves into sock politics with Frankie Graddon and Ellie Muir.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. Amanda Abingdon is sitting in front of me, ready for a chat. Morning, Amanda. Before I come to you, I need to talk about socks. Yes, you heard right, socks. Do you wear them long or short or not at all?

Well, apparently the length of your socks and how high up your leg you choose to pull them up denotes your age. Generation Z or Zed are wearing them mid-calf or somewhere around there anyway. Millennials, no chance. They don't wear socks. But how about you?

Are you wearing your socks pulled up like the youth? I swore I would never, ever, ever in my life wear socks with sandals. But apparently if you live in a certain part of London, it just happens naturally whether you want it to or not. So it's happened. Not today, I hasten to add, it's far too hot. So don't judge me. But I am often inspired by what the kids are up to, I will admit. How about you? What fashion inspiration have you taken from the youth? Were you a 70-year-old in skinny jeans?

Are you a pensioner getting those fine line tattoos? And not just fashion. What else do you consume that keeps you in touch with the younger generation? Does it even matter anymore? Are the lines blurred when it comes to youth culture? Are your teenagers mortified by you or are you one of those cool adults? Tell me about the times you got it right

and especially the times you got it wrong. Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can also email me via the website. The WhatsApp number is 03700100444. And on social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour. Also on the programme, a new podcast exploring whether there is asbestos in makeup. And we continue our journey through various literary genres.

Today, crime fiction. And bestselling authors Jane Casey and Janice Hallett will be here to investigate why we are so seemingly obsessed with crime. That text number, once again, 84844. Now, you'll know my first guest, Amanda Abingdon, from her roles in TV dramas, including Sherlock and ITV's Mr Selfridge. She's also spoken out about her experience last year on Strictly Come Dancing and the backlash she and her family have faced as a result. And whilst all that's been going on, she's also been in rehearsals for a play

that is now on stage in London. It's called When It Happens To You. Amanda plays Tara, a mother who is desperately trying to hold her family together after her daughter is brutally attacked. Tara is a best-selling author. She's been on Oprah and her children are bright and brilliant. One a gifted student and one a talented chef. But their world is torn apart when her daughter Esme is raped in her own home. It's based on the playwright Tawny O'Dell's own experiences

and explores the fallout and trauma for the whole family. Amanda, welcome to Woman's Hour. Oh, hi. Thank you for having me. I came to see you on Wednesday. You were absolutely fantastic. Oh, thank you so much. That's very kind. Yeah, electric. Tawny, you're at the Park Theatre in Finsbury Park, so it's a small space. Very intimate. Very intimate. Why did you choose to say yes to this part? Well, Jez sent it to me.

He's the artistic director of the Park Theatre, and he had this play, and he'd been working with Tony O'Dell to adapt it for a British audience. And he sent it to me and said, what do you think of this? And I read it in one sitting, and it was unlike anything I've ever read before. And Tara was such an incredible, multifaceted kind of flawed, but ultimately wonderful character. And I just thought, you know, I'm a mom.

I have a daughter and I have a son. And I thought it was important that this piece of theatre be put on so that people could see it. It's one. It's honestly, it's terrifying and heartbreaking and funny and uplifting and joyful and weird. And we are obviously going to get into the contents of it, but how often do roles like this come about for women? Well, yeah, not often, I've got to be honest. You know, especially, you know, because I'm 53 and, you know,

women of a certain age, you sometimes tend to fall off the planet you know you become invisible um so and she she's a woman of you know my age so they are few and far between um and uh so when they do come along you kind of grab them with both hands and think yeah i want to do this it's important to do this the opening scene is every parent's worst nightmare. You have not managed to keep your child protected. And you wake up, the character wakes up, Tara, to 27 missed calls from her daughter on her phone. I think everyone's, everybody just was shocked at that moment.

Yeah, yeah. You hit the ground running with this play. It's 90 minutes, no interval, four actors on stage all the time, no props. And once you're in it, then you're holding on and you're on this journey. And yeah, you're right. You hit the ground running straight away.

And the script is incredible because, like you say, it's 90 minutes and there's no let up. And so much happens. And there's so much that makes you think in this play. And it starts right at the very beginning when Tara has to tell her son, Connor, what's happened. And she's unable to say the word rape. Explain. Why is it so hard?

Because it has a stigma attached to it. And there's a lot of blame attached to that particular crime. There's a lot of, you know, women, I think women find it very difficult to talk about that because there is something about that word and about that crime that makes women feel ashamed. And it makes them feel like it's their fault that they've somehow made this happen. You know, and I think, you know, we have to look after women that have been through and, you know, it happens to men as well, but we have to look after women and make it so that women can stand up and say this did happen. I say in the play, you know, that, you know, you shouldn't have to feel ashamed.

Yeah. Well, you say all the other things that you could say. And the way I interpreted that is, yes, it's the guilt and shame that women carry instantly. This happened to me and it's my fault. But also we do that thing where we're almost protecting the other person from the violence of the crime. Yeah, we do. We absolutely do that. Women have something within us,

a mechanism that says, this is my and um i'm not going to talk about it i'm just going to bury it um and yeah there there is there is a lot of victim shaming and there is a lot of um stigma attached to this particular crime there is you know um now there are moments in the script in the play that are a little bit light-hearted as well you know you kind of take on a bit of a journey. And one of those is where she's talking to the police officer. And we hear her internal dialogue, what she actually wants to say and what she's saying to him. Yeah, I think that happens a lot, doesn't it?

I mean, you have to be very polite and, you know, polite in society. But actually inside, you're just going crazy and saying, this is what I want to actually say to you. But I can't because if I do, then I'll look unhinged or I'll look mad or I'll look crazy. There are a lot of beautiful, funny moments in it, which, you know, when I speak to people after the play, they always say, I was really surprised because the content of the play and the nature of the play would mean it was very heavy.

And actually it's not. There's some beautifully uplifting funny parts of it and it and it does there is hope in it yeah it's also so thoughtful and so well um well it's it stems from um a real experience yeah it did happen to tawny um and it's about the relationship between the mother and daughter and it's not just about the daughter's life it's about how it impacts the mother's life and your character, Tara, her life unravels as well. Yeah. And also, I think, you know, it's about her son as well and about, you know, because her son can't understand why this happened and why men do this. And so the three of them, you know, they circle around each other and they, you know, they become more and more apart.

They drift away and then they come back together and and so you see the the journey of this thing that's happened to them and how it affects them over a period of several years um and so it's very it it really does deal with the heart of family and how important it is and how we must always look after each other and and speak up when we feel that something has happened that is wrong. As you have, and we will talk about that as well. Another bit in the play that made, I think, everybody sit up and pay attention. There's so many moments where you think,

OK, I'm in and I'm following the story and then all of a sudden something jolts you. Yeah, you get blindsided quite a few times, which is good, I think. It's very clever, absolutely. It's important that it keeps you there with you for the 90 minutes. There's a really shocking, disturbing stat at the end of the play that one in four women have been raped. Now, what I did when you said that was look around the room.

Yeah, yes, you do. You immediately do, yeah. I mean, I have people in my family that it happened to. And and I know people that it's happened to, you know, and it's it is a shocking statistic. And a lot of women actually don't talk about it. They don't tell anybody. So, well, it's interesting because when we were talking about it in the woman's office this morning, I said, I wonder how many women even feel that they can talk about it to their friends. I think so many still keep it to themselves. Yeah, because it is such a, there is, like I said to you, you know, there is a stigma attached to it that is, that is, there is a shame element of it that is, that becomes overwhelming. It is based on the playwright Tawny O'Dell's own experience.

And she played the role herself in the first production in New York in 2019. Yes. Did you talk to her about it? No, I haven't. She's coming over, actually, so I'm slightly nervous and also very excited to meet her. She has been in close contact with Jez, and we've had emails from her, which has been lovely. She's been hearing sort of, you know, lovely reports of it being, you know uh people enjoying the play and it being an important piece of theater and so we got a lovely email from her the other day saying i can't wait to come and see it thank you so much for putting it on over here and it's a it's a subject that actually does still need to be now more than ever needs to be you know

out there in the public domain and talked about so yeah she's i i've seen clips of her i've watched a few clips of her on doing this doing her thing and it's yeah well that's interesting watching it i was gonna say you're nervous but i have a sense from your eyes lighting up that you're quite excited about performing it yeah yes i am yeah i'd love i wanted to see how we've nurtured it and how we've taken it and and and and given it a life so there's so much of the play that impacted me that got me thinking and it is remarkable it's a really important story and you are brilliant in it and the other thing that I kept thinking whilst I was watching you is how is she coping how is

she doing it how have you managed to get how did you manage to get yourself on that stage well I have a good support network I do I have a family and and Jonathan is amazing and my children are fabulous and I have a best friend Sue Vincent who is just you know guides me every day and but you know you do have to put things in you put things in boxes and you don't you know you think I'm not going to think about that today I'm going to deal with this because also we've only had three weeks rehearsal with this play you know you usually get about four and then you have a tech week but But this has been like very consolidated. And because it's 80 pages of, you know, it's very dense.

It's very, you know, there's a lot of words. There's a lot of scene changes within the piece. So you're kind of doing a lot of hours in the rehearsal room. How do you switch off from everything that you've got going on in your life? With everything that you've, all the talk we're going to talk about strictly but then actually get yourself into a workspace obviously you're a professional but like you say all those lines to learn yeah i turn my phone off and i've stepped away from social media stepped away from social media a few months ago um that's been a huge uh change and been very beneficial and very positive and i think

i urge people to do that if they're feeling sensitive and vulnerable to step away from social media for a bit because it's why what was that doing for you it was incredibly toxic and and relentless and uh that was where a lot of the the death threats and the rape threats towards me and my children were coming from so uh once that had gone you know I had to take screenshots because I needed a lot of evidence of what was being thrown at me but once that went um and I turned off you know I don't look at any of the I don't look at any of the news articles because you know I you know I just can't because it's just a lot a lot of it isn't true and a lot of it is fabricated. So you don't really get a balanced view of what's actually going on.

Once you turn that off and you actually engage in the real world, it's actually very lovely and very positive. And I've had lovely responses, so many beautiful responses from people just giving me a cuddle and saying, know we love you and you know stay strong and you know thank you for doing this for my daughter and for my family and yeah it's been it's been what about interesting yeah but what about fear yes yeah yeah i mean leaving there is you know there is when i'm when i'm on the train and things i do sometimes i feel very exposed and and vulnerable I do because of the nature of the the threats I was getting um you know you do feel like your public enemy

number one simply for just saying I'm not entirely happy with this but um you know you kind of have to you know my nana was this very stoic incredible woman woman. And she would just say, keep your head up. You know, you've got nothing to feel ashamed of. You know, you power on through. And I've taken that. You know, she was a wonderful woman who gave me that advice. And I take it every day, you know. What's Nana's name?

Mavis. Mavis. Yes. She was an incredible woman. Yeah. She died about 15 years ago. Why did you decide, at what point did you decide that you were going to speak out about your experience on Strictly?

It took a while. It did take, you know, it was a couple of months because I was, you know, I'd also had a health issue that was the catalyst for me leaving. But, you know, when I found that health issue, I was like, oh, thank God, you know, I don't have to do this anymore. And that wasn't a good response, you know. So I thought, OK, so I went, I stopped the show and then I hid for a bit and that's when the the the backlash came from from fans of the show and of his his fans um I think

we need to explain just in case people haven't been across this that you were talking about your experience on Strictly Come Dancing with your dance partner Giovanni Paninche you've spoken about it a lot and you've said that it's important that women feel safer in a space where they can say this is inappropriate behavior and it needs to be recognized that's all it's not that's all I wanted you know and and and I will say and I've said this before it wasn't all the time wasn't constant there were pockets of times when we had when it worked well and you know he'd send me lovely messages on whatsapp saying well done and then the next day would you know descend into chaos again so but but all i wanted was that to be a constant like i you

know that that place of rehearsing and that place where you were learning something that you're not familiar with like i'm not a dancer like i'm not that that's not what I do um so what happened it just I just didn't feel um it didn't it I didn't it felt wrong it just you know when you're in a room and you just feel I don't want to be spoken to like this I don't deserve to be spoken to like this I'm trying my best I'm working hard and be and to be you know for these things to be happening to me I I recognize red flags and I recognize bad behavior because it's happened to me in the past and they was they were coming up more and more frequently and I decided to just speak to the producers about it and say look I'm not comfortable this is beginning to slightly get out of hand and it's a repeat pattern. It starts well and then it starts to descend into chaos.

And I don't think I deserve that because I'm coming into this room with a positive outlook and trying to do the best that I can and that's not being reciprocated. I feel like I don't feel happy or safe or, you know, I'm not having a nice time. And that's all it was, you know, and it wasn't nice. And I think, and it happened before.

I knew it happened before, not with me, but with other people. I've been told that. And I just thought, I don't think women should have to go through this. I think there should be, you know, women should be allowed women should have to go through this I think there should be you know women should be allowed to stand up and go this behavior is affecting me it's not fair please do something about it so everybody's happy and it got it got to the stage where that was not happening so I left and then in July spoke out um it takes takes a lot to put it on your one shoulders that you're going to be the person to speak out.

Yeah. Why did you decide that you were going to do it? Because my best friend Sue Vincent said to me, you know, if you look back when you're 70 and you look back at this part of your life and you haven't said anything, will you feel okay about that? And that's fine if you do, but just think about how you would feel if you didn't said anything will you feel okay about that and that's fine if you do but just

think about how you would feel if you didn't say something um and I thought okay I don't I just don't want somebody else to go through that I just don't want somebody to feel like I want somebody to go into Strictly and have the best experience because that's what I wanted and it didn't happen so I just wanted somebody else to go on that show and not have the experience I and several other people before me had had. I must say that we've got a statement from a spokesperson from Giovanni Paniccio who says we're cooperating fully with the BBC's review process and will continue to respect the integrity of the investigation and believe it is the right forum for all the evidence to be reviewed.

Giovanni refutes any claim of threatening or abusive behaviour and having provided the BBC with his evidence is confident that the review will prove this his spokesperson adds that as part of the evidence-led review the bbc has shared the allegations and there are none or nor any evidence that resemble amanda abingdon's numerous and variable allegations um were you prepared for what was going to come next after you'd spoken out no knowing now what you know would you do the same yes yes definitely yeah because i because i've had messages from uh women and young girls subsequently saying, thank you for speaking out. It's given me the courage to go and speak about

what's going on with my life and what's happening in my workplace. So if I've done that for a few other women and young girls, then I'm happy with that. Because I think, you know, it's not, it shouldn't be a stigma. It shouldn't be something that you can't stand up and say, this is bad behavior.

As far as I'm concerned this is not right I know how I'm feeling I'm not going I'm not mad I'm not unstable and the fact that I'm being called that simply for calling out what I deem as bad behavior and it was bad behavior it was I would never speak to well it was bad enough for you to stop being on yeah I loved I wanted to do that show I'd always wanted to do that show it was but and i i heard that you were like tipped to win it as well well that yeah i mean i wouldn't leave something i'm a hard worker and i i will go i will go through anything um if i want if i'm enjoying it and if it feels safe and i you know to call me out and call i'm say i'm unstable and mad is i just just, you know, it's a cheap shot, I think.

Well, it's interesting. We started the interview with you saying that, you know, act of 53-year-old women who are in your profession can feel invisible. You are not invisible. No, I'm really not. You're not invisible. What would you like to see happen next?

What's the best course of action for Strictly? Well, I wouldn't, I mean, I love it to continue. I just, I just think that, you know, there are, you know, I think it just needs, you know, people need, you know, the people, the contestants need to be listened to. And if something happens, you know, it needs, there needs to be sort of proper safety procedures in place. And I mean, I don't know, I don't know how they would do that because I'm not you know, that's not my job. But, you know, I all I know is that I don't I wouldn't want anybody going into that show to have the experience I had and the experience that other people I've spoken to had. Because it's not fair because it's you know, it's a wonderful Saturday night entertainment show. And I think, you know, it shouldn't be it shouldn't be marred by bad behavior that's all and it takes a lot of energy to get on stage and do what you're doing every night and come and talk to me and talk about this very real and raw experience and everything else that comes along

with it what is keeping you going uh the play and the people I'm working with and my family and the the the lovely response I've had from the public, and my friends. It's just, you know, you do. It's not rocket science what I'm saying. I'm just saying just have a duty of care. That's all. That's all. And if somebody's saying, I don't like being treated like this,

just listen to them, you know. It's not hard to me. It doesn't feel hard to me to sort that out. But apparently it is. I want to thank you for coming in and speaking to me. Thank you for having me. I'm going to read out the BBC statement. Anyone involved in a complaint has a right to confidentiality and fair process and therefore it would be inappropriate to comment further on individuals.

However, when issues are raised with us, we always take them extremely seriously and have appropriate process in place to manage this amanda abington it's been a pleasure speaking to you thank you thank you for having me and uh yes all the energy in the world for the rest of this production because it takes so long and it's on from the 30th it started now and it finished on the 31st of august there you go and exactly when it happens it's on at the Park Theatre. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. 84844 is the number to text.

Now, I want you to look at your feet, more specifically at your ankles, because there is a new fashion war going on. And this time it's over the length of your socks. According to a new theory. Yes, genuinely socks. According to a new theory, yes, genuinely socks. According to a new theory by Australian podcast host and TikToker Phoebe Parsons,

a person's socks can say everything you need to know about them. It goes like this. Are you with me? If you wear trainer socks with your ankle exposed, you're an out of touch millennial. However, if your ankle is covered by a mid-calf skim skimming tube

sock are there other kinds of socks anyway you are likely a paid-up member of the trend setting trend setting love this generation z yes it might be a petty generational war but it's only growing in numbers 3.6 million people have watched the original post and it spawned many more. So how did summer 2024 become the season of the sock? Well, joining me is fashion and beauty journalist Frankie Graddon and culture and lifestyle reporter at The Independent, Ellie Muir. Welcome to the two of you. Well, I'm glad we're getting into this because... No, it's been a concern.

It has. Genuine. Summer. Let's start with you, Ellie. You're Generation Z. I'm going to say Zed, if that's all right. Tell us how you're wearing your socks. Can you show me your feet? What have you got on your feet? I've got long white socks on today to really show off the trend.

They're not that long. They're kind of ankle covering, I would say. They're falling down a bit, but yeah, they're sort of above, I'd say like 10 centimetres above my ankle. Yeah. And I've got shorts on as well to really kind of show off the trend what's that what's that telling us well apparently flatteringly it's telling me that I'm really cool um which is great um but I think I don't really know where this trend sort of came from but personally I just started wearing my socks like that probably like a year ago I think I noticed my friends doing it and I was like oh god I should probably go and you know go and get some socks so I did um and then I slowly started looking around and realized that a lot of my millennial friends were wearing ankle socks um and then I saw the TikTok trend

and I was like okay it makes sense now come on uh let's bring in Frankie who's a millennial same question how are you wearing your socks I've got no socks on today I know send me off to the nurse no socks for me very on brand um I mean I love an ankle sock and I love a trainer sock I the the the long socks thing it sort of started on the catwalk and it's been picked up by a lot of gen z style icons. I mean, is it cool? Maybe. Is it chic? I don't think so. I know. Why aren't you a fan? Well, I mean, not that every fashion trend needs to be flattering. But a long sock that cuts you off mid calf is particularly unflattering. I don't know many people who sort of want to willingly make their legs look shorter and I've spent the last decade giving out style advice to a little flash

of ankle really elongates your leg you know so this is kind of going completely against the grain especially as the way to wear them to wear your long socks is either pulled up over your legging on the way to the gym or to get your green juice, a la Kaya Gerber and Kendall Jenner, or with a pair of shorts, which to me, I mean, my three-year-old wears shorts and long socks on the way to nursery. It's very kind of school day. A bit sporty. Yeah.

Sports day. Sports day, very sports day. Sports chic. Yeah, I guess, but very, it gives me, I mean, we used to have to yoink our socks up at school with our skirts because we weren't allowed to wear trousers. So we were freezing. So we kind of yanked our socks up as high as we could go. To me, it's that. And I just cannot see it in a chic, sophisticated context. You've taken me back and I remember pulling them back down and scrunching them up at the bottom to try and make them as short as possible.

Why have Gen Z latched onto the sock as their go-to fashion item? Well, I think we've really seen it in fashion itself. So we've probably been influenced by that. Like there's been on loads of runways recently, the Gucci show in Milan in January, all of the models really wearing long white socks, the same with Miu Miu. And I think there was a show recently and it was a women's wear one and they were all wearing sort

of rugby style socks, you know, really thick knitted ones. But I think it's more than anything a social media sort of following thing and we all just sort of decide to do it. How did this trend start? Well, you said you saw your friends wearing them. Where does it come from? Is it the catwalk and does it filter down or is it street wear that goes up? Does East London have a lot to answer for? East London has, I live in Stoke Newington, so yes, East London has a lot to answer for

in terms of socks and socks with sandals. But we're not talking Gen Z, we are talking Generation X who are wearing those socks with sandals. I remember seeing the first time I saw a grown man with full beard in socks and sandals and thinking, well, this is an irony too far. And now I'm doing it myself.

I know. Fashion has a really awful way of getting you. You see it and you think, never would I ever. Fast forward two years and suddenly it just feels right and so you're doing it. But you definitely see it on the catwalk. And this is a catwalk trend. Muchia Prada, who is kind of she's very directional in the fashion landscape. She is a big fan of a long sock. She was doing it back in 94.

And then you saw Mimi do it a couple of summers ago. So it's kind of it's been there. And then obviously social media picks things up with the advent of TikTok and Instagram street style is that really informs what we wear as well and then you know all you need is for one of the it girls to do it a Kendall Jenner a Kaya Gerber a Gigi Hadid and then all of a sudden it's cool I have a theory I think sometimes like the fashion gods sit around a table and almost like go what what what what joke can we play today we've got loads of people getting in touch about this because i basically said like what have you done to try and kind of stay cool and youthful and how's it played out for you so um a message

here says equestrians have been wearing mid-calf socks for decades. Catch up, you non-horsey girls. There you go. Rebecca from Barnet says, at 60, I retired from teaching and retrained as a children's counsellor. I wore a new pair of flat-form trainers and one of my clients looked at them and said, are those new? I hate them. They don't suit you. Amazing.

Another message here says, dungarees are back. Did they ever go anywhere? I loved them back in the 70s and had a fabulous pink pair. These sound great. Wondered if an 80-year-old could get away with them now. Don't think my bum is much bigger. Can an 80-year-old get away with wearing pink dungarees? Yes.

Big yes, yes. And that's from a millennial and Gen Z and Gen X. So you've got it covered. Yeah, live your best life. Can we talk about what would you do if one of your parents, an aunt, an uncle was wearing mid-calf socks? Could they get away with it? Yeah, definitely. I'd be all for it. I think it's great. I wouldn't say, oh, you know, this is my generational thing. You can't have it.

But yeah, I think it's fun. I mean, I've got a millennial brother who wears long socks. And I think it's probably been a thing in men's wear for longer. We were saying this before, Frankie, but it's kind of been a thing in men's sort of formal wear as well. So I think maybe it's the women that are catching on now. Can we go the other way? What about like men in no socks?

A mancle, showing a mancle. There is an ick factor there, I would say, especially a man in a trainer sock or even worse, those little footsie socks underneath a low cut loafer. That's dodgy. What's interesting about this item is that obviously I have to spend time thinking about everything we're talking about, Woman's Hour. I've spent a lot of time on socks. Who knew? And I have a theory i think that we for me i all i can think about is a certain it's a stereotype but let's think 80s american tourist with full sort of

bum bag or as they say fanny pack and there's long shorts pulled up socks and i think gen z just don't have that in their sort of like you know cultural reference yeah and we do and maybe that's why you're like yeah let's do this so we look really silly to you is that what you're saying no no no listen you'll see me out this weekend with apparently i've got to do it um we were seeing pulled up socks with trainers sandals sandals and kitten heels i hear the next phase is 15 denier tight socks. Oh, I saw someone in these pulled up to the knee. So is that what's going next?

What happens next? What hosiery are we meant to be wearing? Well, it's almost like the pop socks are back, which I don't know. Maybe there's something easier if it's a sheerer sock. It's not such a hard line on your leg. And potentially you wouldn't have to shave your legs. So that's a bonus. Interestingly, though, Prada new season,

bare ankles and skinny jeans. So there you go. Leave us with that. What are you going to do? Go bin the socks. And go to the shops. What fun. Thank you both of you for coming in to talk to me on that frankie and ellie loads of

your messages still coming through thank you and you might see me and i'll take a picture of my stocks and put them on social media this weekend love to see it uh ryan says i'm 45 i'm a 45 year old father of two teenage daughters and last year they decided that this old bloke needed a wardrobe makeover they bought me a pair of ultra skinny jeans. Once I'd managed to squeeze into them, my daughters took one look at me, burst into uncontrollable laughter and handed me the receipt telling me to stick with my usual baggy jeans.

Kate says, I'm 51 now and wish I hadn't spent so many of my early years worrying about my body. My teenage kids are my biggest fans when it comes to pushing the boundaries. I'm trying to embrace it. Short shorts, crop tops at the gym, even longer socks and crazy trainers. I'm also very close to my first tattoo.

It's a challenge, but hell, if I can do it now, I'm going to do it. If I can't do it now, am I going to do it at 60? I would say, Kate, do it. Do it now. Do it all. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now. Now, if you've been getting your ideas into us for Listener's Week, I'd love you to, if you haven't, get them in, please. This is the week when all the stories are suggested by you. We're particularly keen to hear from you if you have a strong

personal story, whether it's an unusual life story or indeed just something quirky. Perhaps you live and work in a lighthouse. One listener contacted us saying they'd like to hear

about the dynamic of parenting kids who have the same learning difference as you. For example, her son is very dyslexic and so is she. We have the same triggers, she says. I also know parents who have ADHD

and are parenting ADHD kids and finding it so hard. Perhaps this is something you can relate to. We would like to hear from you if you are one of those parents. You can text Woman's Hour on 84844. You can also email us via our website or contact us on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. We would love to hear from you. Now, to a new series on BBC Radio 4 that might make you think differently about what's in your makeup bag.

BBC reporter Phoebe Keane's new series of How They Made Us Doubt Everything is looking into claims that there could be asbestos in makeup. It's called Talk Tales and it'll be on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds from next week. But we can talk to Phoebe now to understand a bit more. Morning, Phoebe. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Tell me, how did you first come across this story? Yeah, so I originally thought this mainly affected women in America. I thought it was quite an American story. But when I started my research in earnest, I came across Hannah Fletcher. So that's a British woman who was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer called

mesothelioma. So before her diagnosis, Hannah had a high-flying career in branding. She was jetting all over the world on video shoots and she had two young kids as well, so she was juggling a lot. And in her early 40s, she started feeling more tired than usual and she went to the doctors and then was eventually diagnosed with mesothelioma of the peritoneum. So the peritoneum is a very thin lining of the abdomen and the cancer there doesn't form large tumours that can easily be cut out.

So it's hard to treat. And her doctors told her people generally survive one year from diagnosis. And when I spoke to her for my series, she told me she decided to opt for a gruelling operation. It's a 14-hour operation. They call it the mother of all operations. And a team of six have to kind of scrub in and out to get it done

but they basically go in and scrape as much of the cancer off your organs that they can How did you prepare for that? Because isn't that quite risky? It's extremely risky so I made sure I had all my affairs in order because it is a very high-risk operation.

And one of the worst things that I've had to do was write letters to my children in case I died. That was one of the most horrific things I've ever had to do in my life, trying to explain to a child what might have happened. Yeah, writing letters to her children, that is absolutely heartbreaking to hear. Did Hannah find out what might have been the cause? Well, her doctors told her to call a lawyer. So mesothelioma is almost exclusively caused by exposure to asbestos. That's according to the UK government's health and safety executive. And work done that might have disturbed the asbestos and they didn't find any evidence. So just to be clear, asbestos used to be seen as this wonder

material. It's heat resistant, it's great for sound insulation, fire resistant. But after the evidence mounted of the harm it could cause, in 1999 it was banned entirely in the UK. So if left alone, it's thought to be relatively safe. But if it's disturbed by building work, tiny fibres can be released into the air and then we can breathe them in and they get deep into the lung. But you can't get rid of them. And that's what causes cancer and other diseases. So they sent Hannah's cancer tissue to a pathologist in the USA and he found not only asbestos fibres but also talc particles in the tissue.

And so the pathologist concluded this fibre burden analysis is most consistent with a long term exposure to a cosmetic talcum powder exposure and was the cause of her mesothelioma. And Hannah told me she did not take that news very well. At that point, I kind of reacted quite badly because it just felt like all of this, all of this trauma, all of this horrific impact on our life had been so unnecessary. How did you feel? Really angry. Really angry because my life had been devastated. It just made me also want to get some justice for this

because it's not just me that this has affected. So I just wanted justice. I wanted justice for it all because it all felt like it was so unnecessary and could have been so easily avoided if the right people had done the right thing when they had the opportunity. So Hannah's been speaking out about it to raise awareness. She's also sued the companies that made her favourite cosmetics and they settled out of court.

But asbestos is a known carcinogen and a banned substance. How could it find its way into cosmetics? So asbestos is the commercial name for something that's formed of six minerals that are found in the ground naturally. So and they're mined. And then talc is also a mineral and that's mined as well so it's formed naturally in the ground and talc and asbestos are often found together in the ground so that's because they're formed under similar conditions and they're both made of the same chemical elements so if you have talc in the, you could also have asbestos too.

So has asbestos actually been found in any makeup products? Well, so after I spoke with Hannah, I decided to have a rummage around in my makeup bag. I was battling all those palettes that had exploded and powder everywhere, kind of wiping off the back of the packaging. Wondering why you've still got something from the 80s. Yeah, exactly. But I found eventually that eight of the products I used had talc as an ingredient. So I brought brand new versions from the shops, high street shops with the factory steel intact. And I sent them off for testing at Brunel University's Experimental Techniques Centre.

And they used the most sensitive microscope. And in two of the samples, they found one asbestos fibre in each. So the university's lab say they need to find at least three fibres to confirm the asbestos fibre came from the makeup but they have really strict protocols to make sure their lab isn't the source of the asbestos contamination. And then back in 2021 the UK government's Office for Product Safety and Standards ordered tests of 60 low-cost eyeshadows and face powders and 24 child-appealing makeup products. So in one of the child-appealing products, they found one asbestos fibre. And in one of the low-cost products, they found five fibres. And in another one, they found three fibres.

So the Office for Product Safety and Standards told me that the levels found during these tests did not demonstrate a breach of the cosmetics regulations. But the law is quite vague. It just says that cosmetics should be demonstrably safe. But there's no regulation setting out how talc-based cosmetics should be tested for asbestos. So there's no regulation specifically about testing talc? No, and this is the main issue I came across. So the cosmetics industry came up with a voluntary standard back in 1976 about how they'd test for asbestos, but the geologist and asbestos specialist I spoke to for the series said the standard for testing isn't sensitive enough so they use something called x-ray diffraction

but using that it takes kind of tens of thousands of fibers before you get a response so if one out of every a thousand particles is asbestos you won't be able to detect it using that method and that then could equate to many asbestos fibers slipping through the net and still being in a product. I mean, many companies go above and beyond this, but there's no legal requirement to. So is this just a rare type of cancer that Hannah was diagnosed with that talc-based cosmetics have been associated with? Well, so there's also a story that's come out of the USA court cases, which is that there's an association between talc and ovarian cancer. So Dan Kramer is a professor of obstetrics and gynaecology at the Brigham and Women's Hospital, which is part of Harvard University.

So in the 80s and 90s, he carried out several studies. He compared healthy women to women with ovarian cancer. And he found the women who had ovarian cancer were more likely to have used talc regularly around their perineum than the women who didn't have cancer. And he found the risk was much higher among women who use talc every day. And the risk was highest among women who'd been using talc for 20 years or more. But the results from the studies are quite mixed. So in July this year, the World Health Organization's International Agency for Research on Cancer looked at all the studies that have been done. So it classified talc as probably carcinogenic to humans and found there was limited evidence that talc causes ovarian cancer. It said the study showed consistent associations

between people who'd used talc and cancer versus people who hadn't used talc. However, it said a confounding factor that couldn't be ruled out is asbestos. So effectively saying that the asbestos may partly be behind these results. It said the industry standards used to assess talc-based cosmetics have often been insufficiently sensitive to rule out asbestos contamination.

Okay Phoebe, if people listening to this and getting very worried and thinking about chucking out their makeup bag, what do we actually know about the risks of using a cosmetics product that might contain tiny traces amounts of asbestos? What do we know? So to answer this question, I talked to Dr. Asterio Clampazza. So she's a mesothelioma and lung cancer immunologist at the Institute of Cancer Research in London. I asked her if we know how many asbestos fibres it takes to cause cancer. No, we don't know that. And actually, I don't think it's not something that we will ever find out because cases have occurred even with brief or low level exposures. The only real way to say that we are in a safe level is if we have no asbestos exposure at all. So is there a safe level of exposure to asbestos? No, there isn't. So using a beauty product that might contain one fibre of asbestos poses minimal risk, but there is a risk there. If we say that one uses this product over time continuously, then this risk increases because it's additive. Every time you use it, it has an

additive effect. However, even with these multiple uses, the overall risk remains very, very low. Saying all this, I would advise avoiding any unnecessary exposure. I mean, I would advise avoiding any unnecessary exposure. I mean, I would personally choose a talc-free product. Okay, so Dr. Klampatza would personally choose a talc-free product. So is this about checking up makeup labels? Should we all just be looking at them? Well, do they even have labels on for starters? Because I checked my powder this morning, nothing. Yeah, exactly.

So you don't have to have the ingredients listed. So some products don't have it. You might need to check online. But you don't have to have the ingredients listed. So some products don't have it, you might need to check online. But you can check online or check the packages. Talc is just listed as talc, it's not got a funny name on packaging. But you know, Dr. Klanpatzer says the risk is minimal. But some companies are moving away from using talc. And you'll see that some companies even now say talc free on their packaging as a marketing tool. So, you know, maybe these court cases are starting to change things. Thank you, Phoebe Keane, for coming in to speak to us about that.

How They Made Us Doubt Everything Series 2, Talc Tales, is on BBC Radio 4 every day next week at quarter to two, but you can subscribe now on BBC Sounds. That's really interesting stuff. Thank you, Phoebe. Now, over the summer on Woman's Hour, we've been exploring genre fiction, the women who write it and the women who read it. Today, we are dipping into the UK's most popular genre. There's no real mystery. It's crime fiction.

A recent survey by Nielsen Book Data found that more than half a billion crime books were bought between 2013 to 2022, equating to around 100 purchases a minute. Women make up the majority of crime fiction readers and the most popular mystery author of all time is, of course, a woman, Agatha Christie. To discuss the appeal of this genre and more, I'm excited to say that I have two blockbuster authors with me in the studio.

Their work's consistently on bestseller lists in the UK and internationally. Jane Casey is the award-winning creator of Maeve Kerrigan Police Procedural Series. We first met Detective Maeve in 2010 as a low-level constable, the only woman on a special murder squad at the Met, and now we're 11 novels deep into the series, and the latest is called A Stranger in the Family, and for those who follow her often disastrous love life there are some exciting developments which we'll get into later. Also here is the phenomenally successful Janice Hallett who's been dubbed the queen of cozy crime. Her forthcoming book The Examiner is yet another unconventional take on the traditional murder mystery format so the plot and the puzzle unfold through messages and emails

exchanged between the characters, and we like that twists and turns. Janice and Jane, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. What a delight it is to have you both here. Jane, I'm going to come to you first. What drew you to write crime fiction in the first place? Oh, I just, I wanted to write something that I would like to read myself. So I think

that's always the starting point for a good book is something that you really feel passionate about writing because you really want to read it. And I had always loved reading crime fiction. I had started off like most of us with Agatha Christie. And it just came to me that I had this idea and I should sit down and write it. And how about you, Janice? I love mysteries. I always have done real life ones and fictional ones. And I love puzzles and put them together and you kind of get the sort of mystery, murder mystery books that I write. So you are your own demographic.

Is it a happy coincidence that women are the biggest consumers of crime fiction and that the most popular mystery writer of all time is a woman or is it something about the genre that women inherently respond to or understand more than men? I think there is something that draws women to it and I think it's because we know fear. We know fear and we want to understand it. We want to feel safe. And reading crime fiction, watching true crime, consuming all of this output about crime helps us gain knowledge and makes us feel secure when we are vulnerable in life. That's really interesting that we know fear more alert and much more conscious of risk. And the thing about a crime novel is that it might be something that's quite big, but you will have had those feelings in a smaller circumstance. So walking to your car late at night or getting onto a train and looking around the carriage and thinking,

do I feel safe in here? That's not something that most men will ever bother with. It just doesn't occur to them. And we know it. We know it in our bones. You've both got contrasting styles. So Janice, I'm going to start with you. Would you say there are some core principles of writing a detective novel? There are lots of core principles. There's even lists of rules that you have to adhere to. I didn't really look at those when I started writing crime, so I didn't know what they were. And I tended to break them. So for example, my first novel, I didn't realise you had to have the murder in the first quarter of the book. So my first book, The Appeal, has the murder very late, three quarters of the way through.

So that was one rule that I broke. Did it matter? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. You're doing all right. I think a lot of it is about breaking the rules. I think people think of genre fiction as following very precise, that you know exactly what you can expect when you open a crime novel. That is just not the case. There's so much innovation.

There's so many things that people do differently. And I write police procedurals, but I always try not to write a police procedural. I don't like starting off with the body. I don't like having the police officers sort of coming in when something's already happened. I try and avoid that as much as possible. Back to rules very quickly.

Was it a woman who wrote the rules in the first place? I don't think so. No, it wasn't. No. So well done breaking the rules. What's the appeal for you, Jane, about writing about police procedural? I just find them fascinating.

So I find the police, I find the job that they do is fascinating. Like we kind of allow them all this power in society. But there's a constant kind of questioning of that. And because Maeve is a young woman, and she's very often investigating crimes that happen against young women who are like her, I think there's a sort of special dynamic there, that she's sort of looking at people who are very similar to her who have had very different outcomes from what's happened in their lives. On the subject of Maeve some fans have referred to her and her police colleague Josh Derwent as the detective world's Elizabeth Bennett

and Mr Darcy. They've even they even have a couple name Kerwent. Your two most recent books, The Close and A Stranger in the Family, have even inspired fan fiction. Quite smutty. Apparently, there's one with a hashtag, car sex. What do you make of that? Did you know this? Or am I just revealing something to you? I'm sure you're very aware. I'm shocked.

No, I had no idea. I think it's amazing. I think readers have really taken them to their hearts. And, you know, it's always very intelligent women who are most smutty about Josh Derwent. They really have very strong opinions about him. It makes me blush, but I think it's brilliant. Does this, hearing this and all this fan fiction that's being written about Jane's books, tempt you into writing a series, Janice? Not especially. I really like the freedom

to be doing something different with each book and I think each one I do is very experimental even with the current book that's about to be out the examiner that's something different to my four previous books and I think if I had a series if I had if I was going back to the same place book after book, I think I wouldn't have that freedom. So I kind of like to start anew with each book I start. People describe what you do as cosy crime. What is that? That's a really, really good question because cosy crime does exist. So, for example, The Examiner's Tagline is a fun-packed thrill ride through the unicorns from hell.

And I say that with a big smile on my face. But it's actually, although it has light moments, the book is actually about a very brutal murder and the fight to find out who did it. So it's not cosy in that respect. But the way I approach the, I suppose the procedural element of the book is something that divorces us from the emotion. And I think of it very much like a police detective might approach a crime. They're motivated to solve a murder, but they put their feelings aside and they look at the puzzle and the mystery and solve that. And I think cosy crime, that's where the cosiness is. We put aside the emotion to solve the puzzle and it's a safe space to explore violent crime

and, like I was saying at the beginning, feel better and safer about it. And also we love to get into the heads of these detectives and try and be them ourselves. How much has the female sleuth evolved? Oh, I mean, hugely. I think, you know, if you go back to Miss Marple, she was, you know, the least important person in the room, but she managed to make herself heard.

But now we have, you know, very dynamic, very opinionated women who are extremely modern and recognizable. Like Maeve. Yeah. Where do you see the genre going, Janice? Oh, goodness. I think we're going to see less English country villages, fewer aristocratic families in sprawling estates. We're going to see more diverse voices, diverse settings and a whole new genre of crime fiction written from angles that we've never had before.

Yeah. Bring it. We need it. We need it all. Are we in a second golden age? I think so. Definitely. I think we've got incredible, particularly women writing, actually, and doing really innovative things. I think of Jo Callaghan, her book is about an AI detective who works with the police and she's kind of breaking new ground there that it tends to reflect what happens in society and society is always changing. So there's always scope for things to change and develop. We've got you both in the room. We need you to recommend for our listeners. Could you recommend to crime,

what could you recommend to crime fiction fans? I would say definitely Jo Callaghan. The Blink of an Eye is her debut. Ellie Griffiths, her forthcoming series called The Frozen People. And are you working on your next book? Yes, always. Always? And what comes first? Is it the murder?

Is it the plots? How do you very, how does it work? I start with a blank page. I don't plot anything. Yeah, I know. It's, I don't know what happens, but I start writing and I gradually discover what the book's going to be about. This is madness to me. Yeah. I plot everything. I plan everything out. And I always start with what the series characters are going to be doing that's where I begin oh it's fascinating stuff you'll have to come back individually and we need to get into those uh the methods of how you come up with this thank you huge thanks Jane Casey and Janice Hallett A Stranger in the Family is available now and The Examiner will be released on the 29th of August so many of your messages coming in um i'm going to end with this one from b in wiltshire

she says i am 56 and always towed the line and behaved as society expected but this year i got a helix ear piercing and three weeks ago a fine line b tattoo on my inner wrist i also took up kickboxing in january and love it my day job involves working with phd students so i definitely know that hanging out with young adults helps keep me, my mind feeling younger. I wonder what my next middle age rebellion will be. I'll tell you what it should be, be socks. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4, John Holmes says the C word. I am John Holmes and last year I was diagnosed with prostate cancer.

Following surgery, I'm recovering just fine now, thanks for asking, but it's all been a bit weird. And I think it feels weird, not least because men don't really like talking about this stuff. So I've gathered together a load of other men who've been through it for brutally honest and, yes, funny conversations about all things cancer. Across the series, we'll be hearing from, amongst many others, Stephen Fry, you saved my life. Oh my goodness, it'll be hearing from, amongst many others, Stephen Fry. You saved my life.

Oh, my goodness. It's a wonderful thing to hear. Eric Idle. It's not the most desirable side effect, but it's funny. And the BBC's international editor, Jeremy Bowen. I took a dump on a newspaper. John Holmes says the C word. Listen on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, This is BBC Sounds. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.