Woman's Hour - Ambika Mod, Forgiveness, Grandparent classes, Grammys

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

Ambika Mod stars as Emma in the new Netflix adaptation of David Nicholls’ much-loved novel One Day. She acts opposite Leo Woodall as Dex, and their comedic romance plays out over 14 episodes and 20 years. You may have seen Ambika as Shruti, the junior doctor with a pivotal plot line in the BBC labour ward drama This is Going to Hurt. She joins Anita Rani in the Woman’s Hour studio to talk about now taking the lead.A new programme on Radio 4, Forgiveness: Stories from the Front Line, explores how you survive and restore your life, when something truly appalling is done to you. Anita is joined by the founder of the Forgiveness Project, Marina Cantacuzino and Marian Partington, whose sister Lucy was murdered by Fred and Rosemary West in 1973.Grandparent antenatal classes give grandparents-to-be the chance to brush up on practical skills and get key advice on how to look after young kids again. Anita talks to Dr Francesca Dooley, founder of Happy Parents Happy Baby where she runs grandparent classes, and Francesca’s mother Beverly Bonora who was in her first ever class.Taylor Swift has made history at the Grammys by winning album of the year for a fourth time. Billie Elish, SZA and Miley Cyrus also took home major awards. Even Jay-Z got in on the act, calling out the fact that his wife Beyonce has never won album of the year. Anita discusses with Jude Rogers, arts and culture journalist for the Guardian and Observer and Tschepo Mokoena, freelance culture writer and author of Beyonce, Lives of Musicians.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme at the start of another week. And we begin by thinking about forgiveness because we're talking about it on the programme today. When, if ever, in your life have you forgiven someone? Or maybe you haven't. Maybe you are still bearing a grudge, still angry, and cannot find it within yourself to forgive.

Should we always forgive? What did forgiving do for you? It could have been for something really serious or really trivial. I would love to hear from you this morning. If you have managed it, is it easier said than done? Get in touch with me in the usual way. 84844 is the number to text. You can also email me via the website. You can contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour.

Or if you'd like to WhatsApp me or leave me a voice note, it's 03700 100 444. We're discussing forgiveness for a couple of reasons. There's a new series beginning here on Radio 4 today, Forgiveness, Stories from the Front Line, which explores how people manage to restore their lives after something truly awful has occurred to them. And also you may have seen Esther Jai, the mother of the murdered teenager, Brianna Jai, speaking to Laura Kunzberg, saying

she would be open to meeting the mother of her daughter's killer in a profound act of compassion, one that really makes you stop and think, do I have the capacity to do that? So this morning, please get in touch with me about your thoughts and experiences of forgiveness. Also on the programme, Unbecome Odd. After her standout performance as Dr Shruti in This Is Going To Hurt,

she's bagged herself the lead in a new Netflix adaptation of the David Nicholls bestseller One Day. And are you a grandparent? How's it going? Effortless? Or do you wish you could take a class to help you with the role? Maybe you're the parent who wishes you could send your folks to grandparenting classes.

Well, grantinatal classes are a thing. We'll be finding out more. 84844 is the text number once again. And of course, if you want to send me an email, just head to our website. First, forgiveness. Speaking over the weekend, Esther Jai, the mother of Brianna Jai, told the BBC's Laura Koonsberg how she felt about the idea of forgiving her daughter's killers

and said she would be open to meeting the mother of one of the two teenagers who killed her daughter after seeing her looking completely broken. We can hear some of the two teenagers who killed her daughter after seeing her looking completely broken. We can hear some of the interview now. I don't carry any hate for either of them because hate is such a harmful emotion to the person that's holding that. But with regards to forgiving them, I think that, no no not really Scarlett's mother has thanked you for your compassion is there anything that you would want to say to her and I think that I would like to say that if she did want to contact me and she does want to speak then I'm open to that I'd like to understand more how Os yw hi eisiau cysylltu â fi ac mae hi eisiau siarad, rwy'n agored i hynny.

Rwy'n hoffi deall mwy sut oedd eu bywyd a'r hyn y gwnaethant ei ddod drwy. Rwy hefyd eisiau i ni wybod nad ydw i'n gwbl yn ei ddibynnu am beth mae'r plant wedi ei wneud. And I also want her to know that I understand how difficult being a parent is in this current day and age with technology and phones and the internet and how hard it is to actually monitor what your child is on. So yeah, if she ever wants to speak to me, I'm here. Esther Jai, mother of Brianna. And returning for a second season on Radio 4 Forgiveness stories from the front line explores how you survive and restore your life when something truly appalling is done to you and please do keep sharing your own stories with

me that text number 84844 well Marina Cantacazino presents the program and founded the charity The Forgiveness Project in 2004. And Marion Partington is an author whose sister Lucy went missing in 1973 when Lucy was 21 and Marion 26. In 1994, Marion discovered Lucy had been killed by Fred and Rosemary West. I spoke to both of them earlier and I started by asking Marina why she chose to focus on forgiveness. Well, it all started actually for me with the Iraq war. I was one of those people on the march in February 2003. I was furious. I was holding a banner saying, not in my name.

It was a peace march against the invasion of Iraq. I was convinced the harder you come down on people, the more they regroup in a hardened and resistant way. And so my work around forgiveness, you could say, was a counter-protest, and it grew out of anger. I wanted to find stories which were counter-intuitive, counter-cultural, which were about compassion, empathy, and forgiveness, because the language at the time was so bellicose and so angry and about tip attacks and payback. And so over the course of a year, I thought, well, I'll just try as a journalist, which I was, I thought I'll just try and find stories about forgiveness and empathy,

stories of victims who had found peaceful solutions to conflict. And along the way, I also found and interviewed perpetrators, people who had transformed their aggression into a force for peace. And that's how it began. And the first series, which I've listened to, gives you such an insight into quite challenging situations. I think it's very easy for people to talk about forgiveness, but these stories that you've selected really take us to a place where it's hard to imagine how somebody has the capacity to even start thinking about it in a way that's not purely Angus. Which brings me to you, Marion. Please could you tell us about the moment of realization when you decided to think about forgiveness,

about what happened to your sister? Yes, well, it's a very complex, long story because Lucy was missing for 20 years and we found out what happened to her after 20 years. And so I happened to begin to go on Buddhist retreats there which actually gave me space to allow the unthawing of feelings that have been on hold for so long and the raw feelings of of grief and rage and came up very strongly and but then I on these retreats they go on for five days and you spend a lot of time just confronting yourself really and um and I just had this moment where I was looking at this all

this unresolved pain that had come to the surface and wondering how to go forward with my life, how to live in a way that was not going to be corrupted and damaged for the family, really. You know, I wanted to know how can I live in a way that isn't going to bring more harm into this situation. And I suddenly, I just saw four root possible ways of dealing with this. One was denial, which definitely doesn't work as a long-term solution, but it's part of the process. One was dumping it on others. The most extreme form of that would be murder. One was letting it corrode me, eat away at me my life and the most extreme expression of that would be suicide and then the most and then this word forgiveness came into my mind and I just had this feeling that this would be the way out this would be a healthy way forward I had no idea how it could come about, what it actually involved, but I just had

this sense of this was the most creative, imaginative way forward. And so I actually made a vow to try and forgive the people who'd murdered Lucy. And the first thing I experienced when I got home from the retreat was murderous rage so that was the kind of the beginning of the path for me having to look at my own potential for harm and eventually over the years looking at you know in more detail about yes I can see that I've been a perpetrator I've you know I've been a victim, I've been a bystander. These are all aspects of being human. And we have a choice about how we live

and how we can live in a way that brings something good or something meaningful out of this experience. And Marion, you can have that that thought and you had it on the Buddhist retreat but thinking it and realizing yes this is maybe the best route to take but actually going down that route are two very different things aren't they? They are they are. How did you what did it involve to actually get to a place of forgiveness? Is it forgiveness or is it compassion um well i it's taken a very long time i continue to go on buddhist retreats i i have um sort of spiritual parameters that

disciplines that i i i've lived this journey through. And it's very much about just becoming aware of what is actually going on in me in this moment. And it's something about this is everyday life. Yes, this isn't going on, this is I've seen this on a retreat, but the question is, and I've never really liked the word forgiveness it just didn't really seem to ring true it was a bit dead I used to say

it was barnacled with eons of piety it was just encrusted and eventually on another retreat actually, but I did experience what I call an authentic moment of compassion for Rosemary West. in its complex and confused, wounded detail. So finding some compassion for that within myself, I could suddenly see that this, I just was struggling again with grief the grief goes on and on um but i i i'd actually asked the chan master the of the retreat you know how what can i do about this and he just said the words just know that your suffering is helping to relieve the suffering of others. And I didn't really know how you can, what would that mean in everyday life? But it really led me to a profound feeling of compassion, which means empathy with suffering, which means connecting very deeply with the sort of flawed humanity

that we all carry and realising that actually I couldn't really write off anybody. It just felt like writing people off, turning away the denial route, jest was damaging to, you know, it felt like it would shrivel my heart. And I know it's led you down a road of doing a lot of work with restorative justice, and we'll talk about that in just a moment. But Marina, I just want to come to you on the theme of forgiveness and talk about the comments over the weekend by the mother of Brianna Jai, speaking after the sentencing of the two teenagers

who killed her daughter last year. She said she couldn't forgive the teenagers, but she'd be open to meeting the mother of her daughter's killer. What did you think of that? What did you think of what she said? Well, it's precisely that kind of story that led me down this path, actually, because I realised we live in such an unforgiving and brutal world that when the mother of a murdered teenager reaches out with compassion and empathy, the very person that society expects them to hate, actually, people's hearts are opened.

People are moved by this. People want to hear these stories of hope in such bleak times. And, you know, it's headline news today because of that. You know, we're all in awe where Arla is somehow enriched from having heard her say that. And so these are exactly the kind of stories I wanted to share because I could see that it helped people deal with their own unresolved grievances, their own pain. Did her words strike a chord with you, Marion? Definitely.

I think what struck a chord with me, yet it came back to this thing that she didn't forgive them but she wanted to meet and and i think that that is a difference between compassion she felt compassion for the mother of the daughter who killed her daughter so you know not long really after it had all happened um and she reached out and i think that what struck me about her words, she said, I'd like to understand more how their life was and what they were going through. And I think that for me, there was always this big question, how did the West's lives get to this state? The criminal justice system doesn't look at the context of crime particularly. It doesn't show this picture of lives moving in this direction. What were the influences? How did this come about? Why did it come about? So this need for understanding, which may not be possible in some ways, but it is a very deep human need. who've committed serious harm from my perspective and listen to them and realise that they have

nearly always come from what you could call a ruined childhood. They have been often abused sexually and experienced neglect, the effects of poverty. Nowadays, in this case that we're looking at, you know, the social media had a huge part to play, the corrupting images that influence people's minds. And her need to sort of bring something out of that too, you know, you want to make things different so that this won't happen to anyone else.

That's the feeling. And as part of your process, I understand you wrote a letter to Rosemary West. Why did you decide that that was something you needed to do? Well, I would put this again in the context that this all takes a long time for me. You know, it was 1994 that we found out what happened to Lucy. It was 2000 when I had that moment of authentic compassion for the fact that she's demonised, locked away for the rest of her life, had suffered horrendous abuse in her childhood.

And the question I was asking was, you know, what would have made a difference? And I think, you know, it comes back to for me to love, if she had known love, then these things might not have happened. So I just felt that I wanted her to know something of the journey I'd been on. I wasn't writing to say, I forgive you. I was writing to say, I do not feel any hostility towards you. And also realizing the huge isolation that she lives with for the rest of her life. I wanted her to feel that somebody who had a right to feel hatred and anger did not feel that. But I wasn't offering forgiveness, but I was offering a sort of just reaching out some sort of, I offered, it was a lot.

And did you get a response a response no i didn't i got a response from the prison authorities that said that ms west did not to wish to receive further correspondence and how did that what did that do for you for that i i didn't say i actually wrote the letter in 2004 i didn't send it till four years later when I felt that, you know, I wouldn't, I didn't have any expectations about a reply. But I did wake up one morning thinking, I really, if I heard that Rosemary West had died and I hadn't sent the letter, I wouldn't feel good about that. Marina, you've been present for some of Marion's work in prisons with restorative justice. Tell us about what you've seen.

Yeah, we've worked together in male prisons. One of the things that I found so incredibly moving is that Marion has this little woolen hand-spun bag made by her sister Luce when they were children. And it's an incredible, incredibly special gift that she was given. And she brings it into prisons through security. And I've watched Marion hand this bag around to a group of 25 male prisoners and each of them holding it in the palm of their hands. And it has this really profound effect because here is this precious, delicate object

being given as an act of generosity to men who are listening to Marin's stories and then are invited to some of their own stories. And I think by trusting these men with an object invested with so much emotional value, Marin is somehow able to transform this story of hell into

a message of hope And also Marina, I think we were talking about Brianna Jai's mother this morning and what's been in the news and you said we are in awe, of course the way, the capacity to be able to react like that but i think a lot of us are thinking could i react like that and surely anger is legitimate and and we're probably

all thinking could that be me could i actually and listening to you as well marion do I have the capacity for forgiveness? Well, can I just say, I think I was struck also that in court, Brianna Gay's mother said that the perpetrator's mother looked completely broken. And I think in that brokenness, something again cracked open in this mother's heart. And I think this is what these stories do but forgiveness is multifaceted multi-dimensional open to interpretation not always welcome easily misunderstood highly complex I mean in some ways what I've been trying to do is remove

the barnacles that Marion has talked about and make forgiveness part of our emotional vocabulary, because it is actually something, it's not just for big, tragic, horrible events. It's something that we can use every day in our life around little grievances and grudges that are stuck. And in a way, that's why I've wanted to share these stories about forgiveness. Incredibly thought-provoking interview there with Marina Cantacazino and Marianne Partington. And you can listen to Forgiveness, Tales from the Frontline on Radio 4 every day this week at 1.45.

Marianne's story is on tomorrow. Lots of you getting in touch with your own stories of forgiveness. Georgina said, I forgive my now late mother and maternal grandmother for not attending my wedding now nearly 40 years ago and yes I'm still happily married to him I realized that it was more to their detriment than to mine and Alice says I decided to forgive an old friend who had let me down on multiple occasions I decided that although I thought he was wrong and we were stuck disagreeing

I no longer needed to hold on to any stress and in turn I didn't want him to either it was a great relief for me and we never spoke again thanks to the forgiveness I don't really ever think of it anymore and another one here from Caroline says after my husband had an affair with my close friend I experienced deep grief and anger the beginning of my recovery was forgiveness and the realization that by not forgiving I was hurting myself more than anyone else family and friends have found my decision to forgive very difficult but revenge and bitterness hurts everyone you can't heal while you hurt and anger is unresolved 84844 keep your thoughts coming in on forgiveness maybe you haven't been able to forgive maybe you're in a situation right now and just listening to that interview

has made you think differently about it whatever your thoughts i would be appreciative of your um experiences you can also email by going to our website now is this the year for women in the music industry at the grammys taylor swift made history with her record-breaking win winning album of the year for the fourth time for for midnights she received her award from celine dion who made an unexpected appearance following her diagnosis of stiff person syndrome billy eilish, SZA and Miley Cyrus also took home major awards. Even Jay-Z got in on the act with his speech calling out the fact that Beyonce has never won album of the year. We can discuss them all more now. Also a big shout out to Julia Bullock who was on Woman's Hour a few weeks ago. She won Outstanding Classical Solo Vocal Album.

So well done, Julia. Jude Rogers, Arts and Culture Journalist for The Guardian and Observer, and Shepo Mokwena, freelance culture writer and author of Beyonce, Lives of Musicians. Join me now. Welcome to both of you. Jude, I'm going to come to you first.

Before we talk about Taylor Swift, can we just mention Tracy Chapman performing with Luke Coombs? I thought that was a huge moment. Yeah, it was great to recognise the person who made this amazing song. I remember first hearing it when I was 10. I remember the Nelson Mandela concert in the summer of 88. Just such an amazing song.

And it's amazing. I've met so many people who in recent years younger people who like have known it was by her you know it's a country song it's luke coombs um just to have and he looked so delighted to be on stage with her he was sort of in awe and that recognition was amazing yeah shepo he actually prostrated himself to her because yeah like you say people didn't realize that it was written by tracyman. And is it the first time a black woman has been number one in the country charts in the States? So it's a huge moment.

Yes, it was. It's Teppel, by the way. Yes, I think it's wonderful to see how social media, things like TikTok, can sort of give songs a new lease of life. And in this instance, you know, give Tracey Chapman the chance to be shown her flowers and to perform on this huge world stage. It was really, really heartwarming and always special to see her. She doesn't come out too often.

Exactly. So that was a treat. Exactly. So Jude, let's talk about Taylor Swift. Record-breaking music sales. Her current tour is the first in history to surpass a billion dollars in revenue. I mean, she is a powerhouse. Are we surprised that she won again last night?

No, I'm not surprised at all i think it would have been very surprising if she hadn't won um what i liked um was how she was up on stage with and recognizing other women and i think the big thing we need to take home from this night is it was about women as collaborators and friends and supporting each other um she called out her she was on stage at the front of stage with laura sisk her recording engineer it was so amazing to see a female recording engineer front and center i thought um you know you don't see them very often there's still a massive um discrepancies between men and women in that side of the music industry um especially

their visibility um but yeah she's one now for, let me think, Fearless, 1989, Folklore and Midnight. You know, it's pretty amazing. But yeah, she had Lana Del Rey on stage with her as well and the way she talked about her and that spirit seemed to be running through the night, just with all those female collaborators. You know, when SZA was on stage with Lizzo and they were talking about their early days touring together. Obviously, one of SZA's singles with Phoebe Brid and they were talking about their early days touring together obviously one of SZA's singles with Phoebe Bridges who was then with Boy Genius the amazing female you know I hate to say a female band they're a band but they they the way they ran up on stage they were

so excited you know it's not the way you see women acting you know often at those ceremonies they were because we don't see we don't see them at the ceremonies that much, do we? Getting on stage. So yes, it was a whole new situation. Seppo, though, let's talk about Beyonce and Jay-Z getting on stage to talk about his wife. Explain what happened. So Jay-Z got on stage to win an award for himself, a sort of Lifetime Achievement Award

in honour of Dr. Dre in this particular case. And he used his sort of three and a half minutes just to almost run through what felt like a stand-up routine at times. He was making sort of different jibes and jabs and then just landed the point that, you know, he was looking at his wife there in the audience, the most awarded Grammy winner of all time. She has 32 awards and no one else has ever had that many in their entire career. And he just sort of raised the question that isn't it funny that she has never won an album of the year, sort of implying that the metrics that the Recording Academy uses might need to be adjusted because it doesn't really add up if somebody could be the most awarded artist

on the one hand, but also have never won for album of the year. It was a slightly spicy interlude, but also quite interesting and honest to see someone who Jay-Z, similarly to Tracy Chapman, doesn't really speak publicly that much anymore, doesn't really do much press, keeps himself to his billionaire self. But I think it was an opportunity just to say, on the one hand, that black music, rap music was often sort of pushed to the side and shut out of the industry at the start of its you know reign in pop culture and that later his wife this black female artist has been nominated and awarded many many times but she just can't seem to get her hands on the album of the year even with the sort of you know genre defining boundary breaking records that she has released what do you think so he left you know the gramm-defining, boundary-breaking records that she has released. What do you think about that?

So he left, you know, the Grammys with that. What do you think? I mean, I do think it is interesting. I think the Grammys can never really win. There can only ever be one winner in a category, and there is the sense that I think they sometimes struggle to sort of get it right for everyone. That's never going to be possible. But I do feel as though Beyonce in

the later stage of her career that she's in now has become more of a sort of cultural figure, almost sort of deity-like in the eyes of some. And I do think that she has given the industry so much from the way that she just suddenly, surprise, released her 2014 self-titled album, which, changed the way that artists approached releasing music altogether to the visual albums that then followed it does feel as though she does so much more than any other artist in pop and yet she cannot seem to crack this one award so I do think to an extent the fact that she is considered an R&B singer has played a part in that she's not considered a pop artist and you might say that is down to her race because how her music is very popular. It is very well known worldwide.

But I do also concede that, you know, the Recording Academy, they see the power that other artists have. They see what Taylor Swift does with her albums and that they want to award her for those. On the flip side, Taylor's never won for Song of the Year, for example, has been nominated in that category several times.

So it's the sense that, you know, nobody can really win them all. Taylor might come close, but nobody really can. Jude, I felt it was interesting that he decided to describe his wife as this young lady. It made me think of, you know, the Welsh men or the northern men I know over here in the UK. I don't, you know, I think it's just a bit of an affectionate moment yeah I suppose you know kind of um um but I thought it was very telling when the camera cut to her when he was doing this speech and she was straight and the reaction from the crowd you know why wasn't there cheering to acknowledge that there was more this awkward buzz through the audience and yeah I think it's insane that she has one album of the year.

I absolutely agree with everything that's been said. She's made these albums that push at the boundaries of what an album can be while being very mainstream. She plays with genres. She does really interesting stuff. It's kind of insane. I think she should have won it two or three times myself uh what do we make of the other women who found success miley cyrus won for

record of the year and best pop solo performance for flowers her first ever grammy and scissor led the night with nine nominations but only won three of them i mean only three i say only three i mean she got three grammys still pretty good i love I love the way when SZA won at the end of her speech and she said, I'm not an attractive crier or something and Meryl Streep jumps to her feet. Meryl Streep, who was her son-in-law's date, Mark Ronson, took his mother-in-law. Oh, cool.

You would take Meryl Streep if she was your mother-in-law. Of course. I would. Definitely. But yeah, I thought there were some nice speeches from other people like Victoria Monet, who talked about her female manager, Rochelle Jean-Louis. I think you pronounced the same, but I thought that was really great.

I love this. As I mentioned about Taylor's recording engineer, this mention of the women who are in the background who aren't seen that often. And, you know, how they fought to kind of be seen and be recognized and how her manager had to leave a a company and can go on by herself and i think those are the stories that are really important to remember and the thing i worry about is that you know internet algorithms or whatever will only prioritize taylor swift four albums you know woo and they won't talk about the other quieter stories and obviously you know on but it's great than the night so many genres so many generations you know kylie winning you know at 55 for a pop song is

great um jonie mitchell singing on stage um you know everything that jonie has been through and there were so many different women um you know um kind of who look different who sound different who are from different backgrounds from all kinds of you know what you know, kind of who look different, who sound different, who are from different backgrounds, from all kinds of, you know. I still think the Grammys has to work very hard with diversity. But it was amazing to see so many women who just didn't fit into similar categories. You know, if you put a line up of those women, it's such an amazing celebration of what different women can do with different music and different ideas.

Absolutely. Yes, Seppo. I'm just going to say that I do think it is really important to recognise that celebrating wins for women isn't celebrating wins just because they are women. It's that these are just incredibly talented artists, producers, engineers, everything that you've also said too, Jude. I think it felt really compelling to see so many of the sort of rock categories going to Boy Genius.

Best Rock Album has often felt like the Foo Fighters is to lose, but, you know, Paramore picked it up this year for their album, This Is Why. I think it's just a really interesting time to see that maybe parts of the industry are starting to move away from what feel like the sort of predictable,

almost easy wins in certain categories and to show that, you know, artists can come in any shape, in any gender, in any kind of genre, and that it isn't necessarily about saying, oh, you've done well because you're a woman or you've done well for a woman, but it's just about saying that these are artists, regardless of what their gender and sex might be.

Well, it's still only early February, but I did say could this be the year for women in the music industry we shall see thank you so much for joining me to talk about the grammys 84844 is the number to text lots of you getting in touch with your stories of forgiveness alistair says marion's story is a huge reminder of what humans can be she will stay in my mind to help me be a better person. Empathy, acceptance, forgiveness and love are what gives hope for the human race. And Ray says, I've just listened to your item on forgiveness.

This was such an excellently done piece which was enhanced by the humanity, compassion and knowledge of the participants. It has widened my view and helped me on my own difficult journey. Keep your thoughts coming through. 84844. Now, Unbecome Old takes on the role of Emma

in the new Netflix adaptation of David Nichols' much-loved novel One Day. She starred opposite Leo Woodall as Dex, and their funny and moving romance plays out over 14 episodes and 20 years. You may have seen Ambika previously as Shruti, the junior doctor, with a pivotal plot line in the BBC Labour War drama, This Is Going To Hurt. She joins me now. Ambika, welcome to the Woman's Hour studio. Thank you for having me. It's my absolute pleasure. One day, the lead role. Congratulations. How does it feel?

Yeah, it's been a couple years now, so it's sort of sunk in, but only just. I think it will feel weird when the show actually comes out this week yeah thursday thursday 8th february yeah which is also the exact same day this is gonna hurt came out so it feels like a momentous the same day exactly the same day yeah are you superstitious so superstitious so i look for meaning and like symbolism in everything so when i heard that that was coming out on that date, I was like, huh, everything's going to be okay. Everything's going to be absolutely okay. And having watched the first few episodes

and having stopped myself, otherwise I would have just stayed up all night. I mean, very tired today from watching all of it. It's very bingeable. It is going to be, you're magnificent in it. But this is going to change your life because as I said, it was a standout role for you yeah yeah and you've never acted before well I hadn't acted sort of professionally in that manner

um you know I've got a comedy background I've been doing live comedy since I was 18 19 and like writing and performing all my own stuff um and you know I you know I got an agent I was auditioning for sort of like one-line things I did a couple of those and this is gonna hurt came out of absolutely nowhere in like lockdown and um I think I was the last person they saw for it I think they'd seen like every South Asian girl in the country before they'd seen me and then my tape came in at like the 11th hour um and yeah I ended up getting it and it yeah changed everything for me for sure it's like massively changed like the trajectory of my life in a way that I didn't

anticipate happening and then the opportunity came to audition for Emma in one day and initially you said no yeah why um I was just like really tired um I was tired. This is going to come out. That was a very overwhelming experience for me. No one ever really prepares you for that moment, especially when people really take to a show and take to your character. And I was feeling a bit emotionally, my cup overfloweth, if you will. And I remember I saw,

I was like sitting on the couch in my living room, just feeling like wiped. And I saw the notification come up on my phone. And all I saw was like self-tape Emma one day. And immediately I was like, no, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. Because you loved the book. I loved the book.

I loved the book. I loved the character. And I just honestly didn't see myself playing the role. Tell us, for people who don't know the story give us a very brief overview so uh the series in the book starts on 15th of july 1988 um and it is the first time that two characters called emma and dexter meet it's the night of their graduation from edinburgh university and um it's the very first time they meet. They sort of spend the night together. And it sort of follows both their lives over the next 20 years on that exact same day,

15th of July, for the next 20 years. And it follows their lives and relationships and their relationship with each other. Because it's set, it was beginning in 1988. The soundtrack is excellent. Also, that dress you wear at the graduation. Such a special place in my heart for that dress. I loved it. It's amazing. And like the way that excellent. Also, that dress you wear at the graduation. Such a special place in my heart for that dress. I loved it.

It's amazing. And like the way that our costume designer, Maurice, like styled it with like the leather belt and the 501s and the, like amazing. 80s fashion, just excellent. 80s, but it just feels very current as well. They've done a really excellent job at styling it. And like I said, the soundtrack is incredible.

Why did you think it wasn't for you though? A lot of reasons. I honestly just didn't see myself playing a romantic lead. That's not something I really identified myself with, especially being a comedian. I've always sort of been the self-deprecating type and it just didn't kind of sit with me that I would be the girl that the guy,

I would play the girl that the guy fell in love with. I mean, we were just having this conversation just before, like, you know, you don't see a lot of brown women on screen being the romantic lead. You never see women like that in that position. And it's happening more and more now, for sure. But I definitely realise how unique this is. And it took well into the process and into filming

for me to be like, oh yeah, I am this character. And I identify with her in so many ways. I reread the book when I was auditioning and I was like, we're so similar. There's no reason he couldn't be me. um yeah but it definitely took a while um and it wasn't until I watched it I was like oh yeah this sort of this sort of makes sense yeah when I watched it I had a huge moment of taking it in because I thought this is the first time I'm seeing a South Asian woman playing the romantic lead and maybe if I'd seen this as a child I might have believed that you know my space in society is different or that the guy could even

fancy you yeah absolutely I mean I think there's so much um I think the the like the value of being see of seeing yourself on screen is not one to be underestimated I think it informs so much about how we look at ourselves how we think about ourselves what we think we deserve especially for like young women of color um and yeah i think seeing someone like emma and you know this is this isn't a story that just revolves around her relationship with dexter you know it's about her and her ambitions and her working really hard and following her dreams and failing and um because he's from anything he's from an incredibly privileged background like the opposition is like he's from an incredibly incredibly privileged background he has everything given to him on a silver platter and he sort of wastes that opportunity whereas emma has all the capabilities in the world but just doesn't have the access to do much with that,

at the beginning anyway. And, you know, we see her working terrible jobs. Could you relate to any of that? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I mean, when I graduated from uni, I was like working full-time jobs and then gigging in the evenings and writing on the weekends

and like doing fringe every year. And, you know, because you need to make money a girl's got to eat so um yeah it was I was you know waking up at like 7 a.m and then going to work and then going to a gig and coming back at like 11 p.m and then doing it all the next day and most of the day I was in jobs that I didn't like that didn't fulfill me um thinking about one day hopefully doing this full time and um yeah it feels very do you know what's really weird is we filmed um some of this in edinburgh and we did spent a couple of days at the top of arthur's sea and i've done a lot of edinburgh fringes yeah and um every year when i

do fringe like whoever's up there my friends we always like climb arthur's sea on the very last day so edinburgh and arthur's sea especially has a very special place in my heart and the last time I was there was 2019 I wasn't feeling good about life I was feeling really lost and then literally three years later almost exactly I'm at the top of Arthur's Seat filming the lead in one day and it was just like this incredible like full circle moment and um I just think if you believe in magic it will happen and that felt like a very these coincidences yeah absolutely like these synchronicities if you look for them they're there but I really love the phrase luck favors the brave it does yeah so you've obviously worked very hard and thank goodness you decided to take the audition

yeah for sure I there wasn't like a reason why I changed my mind. I just remember like, sitting up in bed one night and thinking that I made a terrible mistake. And then as the process, the audition process went on, I was like, I want this so much. Also, because like, it was by far and away the best, most interesting role that I was being offered after This Is Gonna Hurt. Because there aren't a lot of interesting roles for brown women out there and I read and I think this is you can tell me if I've uh if it's true that you have actually actively turned down roles where you're playing the sort of sidekick to the white female lead but that takes confidence as someone who's just starting out because actually most of us just think I'll just take the work yeah any work for sure but I think um I don't know I've always had a belief that like if you do something you should always try to do the same or better and what this is going to hurt like that was such a superlative show in so many ways especially with the role that I played um and I just didn't feel that a lot of the roles i was seeing being seen for after that were living up to that and you know the three-dimensional humanity that we achieved with that character and

her experiences um i didn't want to be like like you say a sidekick i didn't want to be there to facilitate the plot i wanted to play it for me it was all character based it's all character driven the way that i you know gravitate towards things and gravitate towards projects and um yeah I think that's what you probably why one day stuck out to me yeah stick to your guns Greta Lee who won um uh a golden globe for her lead role in past lives when she accepted it she said this is the first time where I've been able to tell a story of uh a southeast asian character yeah yeah i'm not the sidekick yeah um yeah it was a big moment um you uh the character is also from leeds yeah you're not i'm not from leeds uh so uh i mean i'm from bradford but we could do the rest of the interview in a west yorkshire accent

we could try how was it mastering the accent you know it was uh it was like for me that was maybe one of the biggest things of me being like I can't do this part I can't do a Leeds accent can't do a Yorkshire accent um and if you watch my audition tapes I just can't do it oh just a bad Yorkshire accent I don't I was sort of speaking like this all the time it just wasn't very good and then I remember like it was I was waiting to hear if I'd got got it and my agent called me being like they really love you but obviously there's like concern about the accent and I was like well obviously like it's not a good accent um so they're like they want you to meet the dialect coach and she's going to sign you off and so I met with the dialect coach on a Saturday

evening and I spent the whole day watching Educate in Yorkshire and I spent like an hour with her and she was like, to be honest, I don't really know what they want from me. Like you could obviously learn this accent, like it's going to be fine. And then I got it a couple of days later, but then as soon as I got it, like I went into like full on sessions with her. She was so amazing. Her name's Natalie Grady and we did like three days a week

and then we were just like militant throughout the whole process not just trying to figure out the accent but then figuring out an accent that works for Emma yeah and then tapering it as the series went on and well it just says a huge amount about your talents and uh what you bring to screen that they said well we want her because it's your it's your eyes and because oh they're incredible thank you just bring us in um this is gonna I feel I'm making a prediction that you know big things change your life are you ready Because it's your eyes, Ambika. Oh. They're incredible. Thank you. You just bring us in. This is going to, I feel, I'm making a prediction that, you know, big things change your life. Are you ready?

I don't know. I can't really see past this Thursday, to be honest. But if people like the show, then that will make me very happy. Well, I mean, not that, you know, I mean, you're on Woman's Hour. We're having a chat. Graham Norton. Oh, yeah. I do that. I do that this Thursday.

I'm really scared. Yeah. No, no. Got your outfit sorted? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm nervous.

It's such a big deal, Graham Norton. But I met him on Saturday and he's a lovely, lovely man. But I am nervous. Yeah. You're allowed to be. I'm allowed to be. But enjoy it as well. Thank you.

I'm thrilled for you. And come back and talk to us anytime. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm Vika. I'm V to be. I'm allowed to be. But enjoy it as well. Thank you. I'm thrilled for you. And come back and talk to us anytime. Anytime. Thank you so much. Thank you, Ambika. Ambika Maud. All the episodes of One Day are released on Netflix this Thursday, the 8th of February. You're going to love it.

Thank you. Now, have you ever heard of grantinatal classes? They give grandparents the chance to brush up on practical skills and get key advice on how to look after young kids again. Dr. Francesca Dooley is the founder of Happy Parents, Happy Baby, where she runs grandparent classes. And the first one she ever did was for her mum, Beverly Bonora, and some of her friends. They're both joined me now. Welcome to the programme. Good morning. Francesca, tell us all about this. Grantinatal classes, where did the idea come from? Yes, so it's interesting, really.

I think the idea was coming from two directions. And as you mentioned, we run sort of antenatal classes already. And something that was really coming through with so many parents was how much they were relying on grandparents for their kind of involvement with their children. And this was anything from being birth partners, you know, to coming to stay with them for short time whilst, you know, they're getting to grips with new parenthood, people that were moving in with their parents, and also people that were just planning to, you know, ask their parents to have the baby for the night so they could have a break or, you know, to be taking over with long term childcare.

So on one hand, we had parents saying we're asking a lot from, you know, the grandparents. And, you know, we really want them to be prepared and learn all the things that we've been learning and then on the other hand we had grandparents um contacting us saying can we book on to your courses because you know we're going to be looking after young babies again and for lots of people you know and people are leaving it later to have children so some of them haven't cared for a baby for you know many years and you know saying you know it's a big responsibility and we actually for, you know, many years. And, you know, saying, you know, it's a big responsibility. And we actually feel like, you know, a bit anxious about the thought of doing this again. I mean, so many questions are coming to mind. I'm going to bring your mum in. Beverly, Beverly, how should we interpret that your daughter put you on this course?

I think it was when she was working on it to start off, I said, actually, I've got a couple of, well, actually three friends that are going to be new grandparents and they've got no idea how things have changed. Do you not think it'd be a good idea to run a course for grandparents? So I brought them along and we did the first course and it was really good. And what were the key things that you were learning then what things when they said things have changed like what because you just presume and people just presume it's just a natural thing isn't it you become a grandparent and you just know how to be a grandparent like what were the things that you needed to learn well things have changed so much the way you lay a baby when it sleeps, car seats, feeding, even how to put a nappy on,

because, you know, which is the front of the nappy, which is the back of the nappy. It's, you know, it's all, everything has changed so much since when I had children and these other people had children. Yeah, it's a lot. If you're looking after someone else's baby, you want to do it properly and you want the babies to be safe. But the main thing was the first aid because, you know, if a baby's choking or if it stops breathing, if it's unwell, temperature. And you can't always phone your daughter or daughter-in-law because they're working in Francesca's case she was at the hospital so she can't just stop and say oh mum you need to do this that or the other so um yeah it was very informative I found it very informative. You mentioned there because Francesca's at the hospital because Francesca you and your husband Will um who you run the course

together you're both doctors have there been big changes from a medical standpoint about how you look after young kids? Yeah, so it's really interesting. We always kind of start the courses by saying to the grandparents, you know, lots of things have changed, but babies haven't. And you've done all this before. It's going to be like getting back onto, you know, riding your bike in many ways. However, you know, if you spend in in many ways however um you know if you spend

a couple of hours on this course talking to other grandparents maybe you know there are things in common that you're worrying about and we can kind of update you on certain things then you know you can go into this whole process feeling a lot more confident a lot more happy um and that's why we called it happy grandparents happy, Happy Baby. And the main things that grandparents want to know are safety. So first aid is a big one. They tell us that they want to know about guidelines. So for instance, you know, 30 years ago, people did put babies to sleep on their front. And there were big campaigns in the 90s which um have you know made huge kind of differences to the way that we do things um car seats weren't even you know

um you know I think my mum said we used to just put you in a carry cot on the back seat of the car it wasn't until sort of 2006 that people had to put a baby in a car seat. So safety is a big one. Technology, you know, walking into a shop or a supermarket and suddenly there are just rows and rows of baby products that just didn't really exist. You know, being handed baby monitors, you know, what do I do with this? So all of the technologies change and also attitudes you know things like men are a lot more involved than they used to be and you know grandfathers are now saying hang on we want we want to be involved as well you know it's not fair that we've didn't get to do that so can we join in um so how do you tackle that the sort of changing attitudes and

parenting styles I'm thinking there's a lot of sort of it sounds like a lot of therapy might be involved in this talking to grandparents how to communicate with your children it's a big one and you know what it works both ways because a lot of grandparents are saying to us you know oh how do I know if I'm going to do the right thing say the right thing but then you, they're also kind of worried about their own boundaries. You know, how much should I agree to take on? You know, maybe they're in their 70s, their 80s. And, you know, they're being asked to have babies overnight or have babies for long periods of time. So we do, you know, and the grandparents give each other advice about how they're kind of playing things

in their family. And yeah, it's really useful. I think everybody comes out of it just feeling a bit more reassured and kind of thinking about what they want to do. Exactly. And also, Beverly, I mean, we talk about it a lot on this programme. The cost of living and the cost of childcare means that more and more people now are having to rely on grandparents to help out with the kids. Exactly. I think, and also it works both ways because you get so much pleasure from looking after your grandchild and you form such a strong bond that I think it's an honour as well to be asked, but not too often. And have things changed since your own experience of raising Francesca? How did it feel taking on the grandkids?

As I said, it was lovely. I mean, Francesca's got three babies and I've looked after all of them. And in fact, this afternoon, I'm going to pick three of them up from three different schools. So, yes, I'm very heavily involved. But I class myself as very lucky. And what about the communication between the two of you, Francesca? Yeah, I mean, it's always been smooth. Yeah, I think we're lucky, really. I think, you know what, I remember, and I kind of talk about this on the grandparents

course, I think before I had children, I was very kind of thinking, you know, this is fine, I'm going to be fine and I remember my mum saying to me shall I come and stay on that first night you come home from the hospital I said no no no we'll be fine like we need to do this um so we get home go to bed laid a baby in this new crib and the baby just would not stop crying and it got to about three o'clock in the morning and of course you know I called my mum so she drove an hour in the dark got handed a screaming baby and um you know we were exhausted Will and I and you know we just said can you just watch her breathe so we can sleep and a few years later we woke up and the baby was all calm and settled and you know so grandparents are amazing and they've got so many skills yes and this is really just about you know grandparents

grandparents are amazing but i have to say based on what you're saying francesca your mum is amazing driving an hour through the night to help you out picking three kids up from three different schools this is this is top grandparenting and she's also got my brother in his three children living with her at the moment whilst they're moving house so she Beverly will you be my grandma too please and very quickly Beverly top tips for any grandparents to be? Patient, guidelines, because that's very important as they're growing up. Boundaries, obviously. Just be loving and caring and be the best you can. Wonderful advice.

And all the treats, giving them all the things that we don't. Exactly. Thank you both for speaking to me this morning. And yes, wonderful. Really enjoyed that. That's Dr. Frances Dooley and her mum Beverly talking about grandparent classes. Woman's Hour is back tomorrow from 10,

where you can hear Emma speak to a woman whose ex-partner is due to be released from prison despite a parole board panel saying in November it would not be safe to do so. Rhiannon Bragg was held at gunpoint for eight hours by her former partner, so do join Emma for that tomorrow. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. The Post Office Horizon scandal has shocked Britain. Post Office IT scandal which has had so much publicity hasn't it over the last... This is a scandal of historic proportions. I've been following the story for more than a decade,

hearing about the suffering of sub-postmasters like Joe Hamilton and Alan Bates. It was just horrendous. The whole thing was horrendous. I was told you can't afford to take on post office. And about their extraordinary fight for justice. What was motivating you? Well, it was wrong what they did. Listen to the true story firsthand from the people who lived it

in The Great Post Office Trial from BBC Radio 4 with me, Nick Wallace. Subscribe on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.