Woman's Hour - Amelia Dimoldenberg, Vaping, Bigamy, Angel Blue

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

Doctors are warning that vaping could be harming children's health and say more needs to be done to make vapes less attractive and accessible to young people. The warning comes from experts from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, which has reviewed around 80 studies and said it is linked to higher rates of breathing problems and evidence of harm in babies whose mothers used vapes while pregnant. Anita Rani speaks to Will Carroll, Professor of Child Health at Staffordshire Children’s hospital and co-author of the study.With over 1 million 16-24 year olds out of work, education or some form of training, internet personality Amelia Dimoldenberg - creator of Chicken Shop Date - has launched her own creative academy. Amelia joins Anita to discuss the importance of making the online and media sectors more accessible for the next generation and how best to combat youth unemployment in this country.30,000 people have been tried for bigamy over the past 400 years, many harshly punished, according to a new study from the University of Exeter. Rebecca Probert is Professor of Law there, and a leading expert in the history and current law of marriage, cohabitation, bigamy and divorce. She has been looking at how the law has evolved since 1604 and joins Anita to discuss some of the incredible stories she uncovered, included in her new books Double Trouble and Double Lives.Sarah Smyth from the University of Essex has been delving into archives in America to look at the screenplays of the writer and director Nora Ephron. Before her death in 2012 Ephron won numerous awards, including a Bafta, a Golden Globe – she was nominated for Academy Awards… but has her feminist reputation been watered down?The Grammy award-winning African American soprano Angel Blue will perform at the BBC Proms at the Royal Albert Hall this Saturday. She joins Anita to look back on winning a Grammy for her role in Porgy and Bess, how she funded her music studies by entering beauty pageants, and how a recent health diagnosis has affected her.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com. Hello, I'm Anita Rani, and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast.

Good morning and welcome to the program. Doctors have said that vaping needs to be made less attractive to children and young people. We'll be looking into the new review of vaping, which also says it should not be seen as a harmless part of growing up. Also, bigamy, the criminal act of marrying someone when you're still legally married to another person. 30,000 people have been tried in the last 400 years in England and Wales. We'll be hearing some of those stories. But also if this has happened historically in your family, we'd like to hear from you.

84844 is the number. American soprano Angel Blue will be here. And Angel will be performing at the BBC proms on Saturday night, but not before she's come and had a chat with us today. We'll be hearing from an academic Sarah Smyth who wants to change the perception of American writer. Nora Ephron. And she's been on over 100 dates, all in a chicken shop. Amelia de Moldenberg's 2.9 million Instagram followers and 3.4 million YouTube followers cannot get enough of her

celebrity interviews in as she describes her style, her refreshingly awkward way. Well, Amelia is here to tell us all about her new initiative to make the creative sector more accessible to the next generation. So listen up if you've just got your GCSE results and are at a loss as to what to do next, you might be inspired. Well, channeling Amelia this morning, I would love to hear from you about your most awkward situations. Whether it's a date that went a bit wrong, maybe like Bridget Jones, another superbly awkward and hilarious woman, did you turn up to a party in fancy dress and no one else was? When have you made a social faux par or wished the ground could swallow you up? What situation, even thinking about now, makes you break out into a cold sweat.

You can remain anonymous or you can name and shame the choice is yours. Get in touch in the usual way. On most smart speakers, you can say Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. You can text the program. It's 84844. You can email us by going to our website or you can WhatsAppers on 0700-100-444. The text number once again, 84844. But first, doctors are warm.

warning that vaping could be harming children's health and say more needs to be done to make vapes less attractive and accessible to young people. The warning comes from experts from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, which has reviewed around 80 studies and said it's linked to higher rates of breathing problems and evidence of harm in babies whose mothers used vapes while pregnant. Well, to tell us more is Will Carroll, Professor of Child Health at Staffisher Children's Hospital and co-author of the study. Good morning, Will. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Why did you want to carry this review out now? Well, we thought it was really important to pull together all the evidence that was available.

We've heard lots of debate about vaping versus smoking. Is it good? Is it bad? And it was very clear to us as paediatricians that evidence was emerging of real harms that we could see in young people. But we wanted to be able to be really clear about what those harms were and how, people might suffer them. So what exactly did you find? Well, I was a bit surprised. So I'm a children's chest doctor and I think it was fairly obvious to us in children's respiratory medicine that our young people who got asthma or long-term lung conditions like cystic fibrosis, if they started vaping, they were doing a lot worse. And we could see that quite early on.

We didn't really need to do a study to know that vaping was bad for children. lungs. What actually was a surprise was that there were lots of other associated risks with vaping and they included difficulties with sleep and I think that's really important and particularly seems to affect young women more than young men. Problems with mental health, anxiety, suicidal ideas, problems with the mouth, oral hygiene, problems with the eyes and allergies, related to probably the vaping process itself. So there are other things that go on. And I think, well, you've already highlighted,

if you're vaping during pregnancy, that baby's inside you is getting nicotine. And that might not be what you really want for your baby. How significant is your study? I think that's important to know, because there's been some criticism that many of the studies were surveys which don't provide the strongest evidence of health concerns.

and has not been able to determine whether regulated nicotine vapes are associated with the same health harms as non-regulated nicotine vapes. So what are your thoughts on that? Well, I'm part of the study team, so I'd love to say the study's significant. It's a start. Of course, it's a start. We've got to start somewhere. We can't just keep blundering on with, oh, yeah, vaping's way less harmful than cigarettes. Let's not talk about the risks.

Let's not try and actually let young people. make the decision. Young people are really smart. You know, they're really clever. They had already got smoking beaten actually as a generational thing. Young people were not taking up smoking. And that was a big threat to the people who make cigarettes and nicotine addiction, their trade. So, what do they do? They invent something that is really, really, really good at getting you addicted to nicotine. Well, I mean, I've heard people say this myself. Some people would say that vaping is a helpful tool to get people off smoking. Well, if you're 14 and you've never smoked, that's not an issue, is it?

You're not trying to get off smoking. And young people had already said they turned their back on smoking. So, you know, that's a big threat to an industry that sells us nicotine addiction as their stock in trade. And in July, I know you will know this, that the government announced a raft of measures and consultation on the appearance, packaging and display of vapes with the aim of reducing the appeal. to children. So what do you make of what the government is doing? It's a start, you know? This is great.

I'm well done to every single member of parliament who voted that through and helped us get that onto the statute book. It's a start, but it's only a start. Like this study's a start. We need to make more progress. We need to really get to grips with nicotine addiction

as something that's bad for us. We shouldn't be. trying to get people addicted to a substance that we know affects the brain, it affects the development. And of course, it's going to have other long-term problems. What do we know about vaping that's different to smoking? Well, I think many of your users will vape. Many of your listeners will have vape or will have tried it. You know, one in four children has vaped.

That is a big, so this is 11 to 16-year-olds, that's a big increase in the number of people trying to something. And when you vape, you don't have the same degree of awareness of what you're taking into you. The harder you suck on it, the more nicotine you get, the higher the concentration of the nicotine. And you can quickly go up and find that you need higher concentrations of nicotine liquid for those who are refilling vapes. So adults who have vaped have already started to report, we think this could be as harmful to us as cigarettes, because I suspect they recognise the very addictive nature of it. And many people who are smokers who try and move on to vaping find that they end up being co-users.

So they end up both vaping and smoking still. So that's not really a good, that's not a big win, is it? You're taking more nicotine and you're now doing two things rather than just one. And the health consequences and the cost on your pocket as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just a beautiful, from a scientific point of view, if I wanted to make people addicted to something, I would say this is a thing of beauty,

but my job is not to make people addicts. What more do you want to see done, Will? Media, thank you. Great to have a bit of a platform. I think the media just need to be really clear about this. Vaping is bad for people. Vaping is not good. It's not cool.

And we need to also make sure that if we've got people who are influencing us, that they influence us in the right way. So to all of those people out there who are watching people on YouTube or other platforms, let's get everyone on side with this message. Vaping's bad. It's very clear. Let's not promote it. Well, Carol, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning.

That's Professor of Child Health at Staffordshire Children's Hospital. And we've had a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care, say children should never vape and this evidence shows just some of the risks associated. We have already banned single-use vapes and have legislated to ban advertising and sponsorship from next year too. We're also consulting on proposals to crack down on packaging that appeals to children. 84844 is the text number. Now, my next guest shot to internet fame through her YouTube series Chicken Shop Date, meeting A-listers in London to discuss life over a box of nuggets.

Let's hear a clip of her in action when she sat down with Cher. She's also interviewed the likes of Jennifer Lawrence, Paul McCartney, Idris Elbra, Zara Larson, Sabrina Carpenter. But away from the international stars and fried chicken, Amelia de Molderberg has set her sights on an issue closer to home. A recent government report found that over 1 million young people, age 16 to 24, are not in education, employment or training. Amelia wants to change this, and she's launched her own, four-week Creative Academy for 15 young people aged 18 to 24.

Amelia, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello, thank you so much for having me. I'm such a fan of the show. Are you? Yeah, and my mum is listening right now. What's mum's name? Shout out to Linda. Linda, morning, Linda.

Very good. So Dim's Academy is what you've called it. So what are young people you're working with doing in these four weeks? Tell us more. Well, it's happening right now over the whole course of August, and they get split into groups. three different groups and they are each making a video and they are working over that on that project

for the course of the four weeks. They're learning about camera skills, production, sound operating, marketing, their final product. So they're making a mixture of, one groups making an interview, one's doing a vox pop on the street and one's doing a report on Brixton Street style. So yeah, it's a whole range of different videos that they're making.

Learning to create content. Yeah, exactly. But I wanted to make sure that it was broad enough so that all the young people could understand the different roles that were in the creative industries. This is not just a creator pipeline for on-screen talent. This is them understanding all of the different roles and people that work behind the scenes

to make these productions a reality. And it's in its second year. Yes. Well done. Why did you want to launch it in the first place? Where did the idea? come from? Well, Chicken Shop Day actually started in a youth club in northwest London and we made a youth magazine and I started going there when I was 16 and then I came up with the idea when I was there

and I would not be where I am today without the support and the mentoring of that program and also the young people that I met there that helped me on my way like it was just I couldn't imagine what I'm doing without it and so I've always known that I've wanted to create. that same kind of space for young people to meet other like-minded people who are interested in the creative industries. And they can use them as a support network. And they also can have trusted adults around them who are kind of supporting them and teaching them along the way. So it's always been a dream of mine. So I'm really happy to be able to be making it a reality with the support of an amazing charity called Spiral Skills, who has given me that infrastructure to make this

happen. Yeah, because, I mean, a lot of the time you can get these skills and training, but then it's getting access your foot in the door. I guess the world has changed so much and everything is like you are. You are sitting here in front of me as proof of the kind of creation of a huge star by accessing content that's not sort of traditional terrestrial TV. The thing that's amazing about digital media and platforms like YouTube and social media platforms opening up is they've democratized the space in the sense that,

you know, if you have access to the internet, you're able to start your own content series, your own brand, you know, all of those different types of things, which is amazing. But I think it was important for me to instill not only confidence, but a real understanding of how these roles work because I think, you know, the market is very oversaturated now. So it's not, yes, we can tell young people, go and, you know, use your phone and make, and make content. But actually, like, I would love for these young. people to be really aware of like all of the different roles available to them so that they can

plug into the industry in multiple different ways. And get skills. Get skills. Yeah, exactly. And also like believe in themselves through like the support of other young people and actually build like a community. You know, that's what I'm trying to do as well. Yeah, that's really interesting.

I want to sort of dig a bit into that just to find out how important you think it is. You did an interview for the big issue and you said that young people need nepotism. Yes. What do you mean by that? Well, that was actually, I used the wrong word. I feel like it was a very long press day. What I meant by that is actually what we're doing is the opposite of nepotism. But what we need more is to be opening those doors for young people.

And that's what I'm trying to do with my program. And it's not that young people are like stuck for ideas. They have all of the ideas and the creative ambition. They just need someone to point them in the right direction and for them to feel like they have more confidence. and that's why we're also providing wraparound support for the young people. So it's not just going to stop after this month. And we're also going to be providing paid work experience placements as well.

Are they starstruck when they meet you? Well, I don't know. Like I feel like I try, because I've been going every day, I feel like now they're really not. But I don't know, they were very cool, calm and collected. But I feel like I have a way with when I can, when I meet people, I feel like hopefully I'm able to. get on their level

no matter if it's a young person who wants to break into the creative industries or share. Or share. Well, you've got this brilliant technique. I mean, you're so funny and you are so disarming. You put people at ease instantly. And that is a super skill. I wonder when you are doing your interviews,

do you chat to them before? Do they come in cold and just sit in front of you? Do they know what they're about to? I mean, well, it's changed over the course of the years because I've been doing the show now for 12 years. And I think when it started, obviously people had no idea what they were. were like stepping into. And I was quite method with my approach. I feel like I was like,

I am not going to speak to them at all. I'm literally just going to turn it on when I sit down opposite them. And now I, well, now it's twofold because the guests have more of an understanding of the shows. They know what to expect. And also I've decided that I can say hello before and say, thank you so much for doing this. And I do a little briefing. And it's interesting because that's what things I was explaining to the young people on Tuesday when they were doing their filming day. and they were trying to approach people to be involved in their reports, etc. And I said the briefing is really important because it's a way that you can make someone who doesn't understand your idea, understand it very. And you have to be very succinct.

And it's about tweaking that approach so that you make someone feel comfortable. So yeah, it's been amazing to be able to use some of my knowledge and impart that in the way that I can. Let's go back to the beginning, though, so how it all started. So you were 16. Yes. I was 16 when I started at the youth club and then 17. when I started doing the column in the magazine because Chicken Shop Date was originally a column.

What's the magazine? It was called The Cut, actually. But not to be confused with the New York version of that now. But yeah, it was called the Cut Mag. And it was your way of kind of doing interviews. Yeah. And it started with Grime artists. It started with UK rap and grime artists.

And that was like the music that everyone was listening to at the youth club. So it kind of just made sense that those were the people that I would be interviewing. And actually, Nina Mandahar, who's one of the women who started the magazine, is actually now working alongside me in this program, the Dimzink Academy. So it's a really amazing 360. And some of the people that I met in that youth club are now coming back as professionals leading workshops. Yeah, brilliant.

And so the idea was just you doing these chicken shop dates because who would go on a date in a chicken shop? But also, why not? Why not? And also, the idea was where could you take someone on a first date where you would never go on a first date? That was where the idea came from. And what about your style?

Because it is so brilliant. and you're so, like you say yourself, refreshingly awkward and you're so quick. Always funny? I don't know. Yeah, I feel like maybe it's one of those, this story you might have heard before where, you know, someone at school and they don't really have that many friends to begin with. And so you're like, okay, how am I going to make friends? I'm going to charm them with my wit to all, like, make them laugh. And that was kind of what happened with me.

And yeah, I've just always kind of leaned into that awkwardness and felt like it was maybe like an armour in a sense. for me to be able to put on this persona when I step in to do my interviews because it's daunting, you know, like as an interviewer yourself, like often you're, you know, meeting someone you've never met before and wanting to come away with an amazing conversation. It can be nerve-wracking. And so I think the persona has always helped me in a sense with that confidence. And that persona is someone that's deadpan, awkward. And, yeah, it's worked pretty well so far.

Deadpan, awkward, charming. Yeah, but still, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Charming and, yeah. And, you know, celebrities are just falling at my feet. They are falling at your feet. They are obsessed with me. They are totally obsessed with you.

And sitting in front of you, I can see why. So you, chicken shop day, incredibly popular, kind of the rise through social media and digital media. And then you find yourself on the red carpet at the Oscars. Yes. Come on. Can we discuss what that felt like, getting the phone call to say? so incredible and obviously I would I um at this stage my career I that I'm not getting an invite to the Oscars and so it's amazing that my invite comes through um hosting the red carpet and I'm such a

fan of a film and so to to be able to be be in the room and be on the carpet and be able to speak to so many amazing actors and directors and I love the thrill of only having um like 60 seconds with someone and in that 60 seconds you have to get something that's like incredible incredible dynamite. And I just, I love the challenge. Are you prepped? Yeah.

Like, it feels like you're revising for your exams. Like, I prepare individual questions for every nominee. And there's like, that's like nearly, like over 50 people. Yeah. And I work with a team of writers and we, a small team, but me and my sister actually. And yeah. And so I make sure I'm prepared, have a specific questions for everyone. And then just try and be.

let let go and make it feel like it's just totally off the cuff where actually it's not. Is your sister as funny as you then? She is very funny in her own way, but she's like my sounding board and she's someone that I've always like shown my work to and be like, is this funny? What should we? What should we take out? And so she it's very, she humbles me, which is I think is a good to have around. You said at this stage in my career, like this is the only way I'm going to get to. the Oscars. So acting? Oh, well, I'd love to direct. So yeah. And I'm like acting as well. Like I'm

developing a movie like my my, my, my rom-com with, um, course it's going to be a rom-com. Yeah, yeah, my rom-com. So, so yeah, I'm developing that at the moment. And so hopefully, yeah, that will obviously then be nominated for an Oscar. Of course. Of course. Can I ask you about your dancing? Oh, yeah. Because I love it when you dance, it brings such joy. Oh, wow. Thank you. I mean, it's actually really cute moves, but also that kind of, it full fits in with this slightly. I love to dance. I just do. And I would love to dance more. Like, honestly, I would just love to dance full time, just become a full time dancer. Same. Yeah, I really, I mean, you are an incredible dancer. No, you are. You are.

Yeah. But yeah. And yeah, I just love to dance. And I think it's just amazing. Like, to, it's just brings people so much joy and myself so much joy. So it's a real ambition of mine, like, if you're, like, in the future to dance more and more. Yeah. What are your plans for the Academy? me, are you going to upscale it back to what you're doing to, you know, bring, bring, I mean, this full circle moment. Now you kind of, you've got so much power. I mean, yeah, exactly. Like, and I should be using it. Yeah. That's like the whole, I think it's always been like my ambition to like use my platform and my privilege to be able to do something like this. And I think we all have a responsibility to do that. In terms of like growing it, last year we, we, we, it was over

five days. This year it's four weeks. So I'm really proud of that. And you can really see the difference in the young people as well and the confidence that they're getting over the extended period of time. And then I'd love to make it regional in terms of growing it because obviously you mentioned that Alan Milburn's report and young people, it's a real, you know, crisis right now. And regionally, it's a lot worse than in London. What should the government be doing? Well, the government, there's loads of different ways in which you can help young people, but I think like more training schemes, not so much a reliance on, there's so many more ways in which young people, the things that young people can do after school, university, brilliant,

but also there are so many other things, apprenticeships, yeah, training schemes. So I think that's a great thing to be focusing on. And then youth clubs, I think as well, because it's all about young people being around trusted individuals, trusted adults, that's really important for them to even be ready to get into work. And so youth clubs are a great example of like where young people can be around trusted adults and can feel like they have some more sense of security and support. And back to your own sort of content.

You're learning to drive? I am learning to drive. And my instructors are Formula One drivers. How's that going? Yeah, passenger princess. Yeah, passenger princess. I mean, on paper it sounds amazing. doesn't it? Like my driving instructors are Formula One drivers. The funny thing is though,

they do not like being in the passenger seat. They like being in the driver's seat. So when I'm driving with them, they are on edge. And also interviewing people when you're driving in a car and you don't know how to drive is another level of nerve-wracking as well. But let's see, I need to pass my theory. And then I think it'll be all steam ahead. Of course it is. There's been nothing stopping yet. Amelia, thank you so much for coming in to speak. much. I really appreciate it. Absolutely pleasure. That's the brilliant Amelia Dermoldenberg. And if you haven't joined her army of fans, then it's all there for you to see on her Instagram and a YouTube. And talking about GCSEs, a quick reminder that a couple of weeks ago, we had a discussion

about the hidden alternative to GCSE, the functional skills qualification. If you want to listen back to that, it's The Woman's Hour episode from the 6th of August. Thank you, Amelia. I know she didn't bring me any chicken in, but it is a bit early. Thank you. Now, 84844. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odo.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com.

30,000 offenders have been tried for bigamy over the past 400 years in England and Wales. them harshly punished, according to a new study by Rebecca Probert, Professor of Law at the University of Exeter. Rebecca has taken a look at how the law has evolved since 1604 and has uncovered some incredible stories that she's included in her books, Double Trouble and Double Lives, like that of the serial bigamist who placed lonely hearts adverts and duped more than a dozen young working class women. Good morning. Rebecca, welcome to the program. Good morning, Anita. It's a real delight to be here. Yes, absolutely. I'm looking forward to conversation. First of all, let's define our terms, bigamy. What is the current legal definition?

And how does it differ from polygamy? Yeah. So bigamy is basically the crime of going through a marriage with one person while you're legally married to another. There's various defences to that. So there's a defence of, you know, if you haven't seen them for seven years and have no reason to believe they're alive, that's a defense to bigamy. It's also a defense if you had a sort of genuinely and reasonably held belief that they were, the first faxes dead. Now, earlier on, bigamy and polygamy are often quite used interchangeably, but today polygamy is used to refer to any kind of legal system or religion within which it's legitimate to take multiple spouses. So you say it's been a rare crime.

and one that's mainly associated with men. In the 19th century, bigamy took on gendered connotations. Explain more. So basically in the 17th and 18th centuries, you have this sort of sense that bigamy is really seen as an offence against the institution of marriage.

So the punishment is the same, whether you're a man or a woman. And that's partly because actually there isn't much choice when it comes to punishments. you're probably going to be branded with a red-hot iron. From the late 18th century, you get the possibility of either being transported to Australia for seven years or sent to prison for up to two years. So you start getting the sense of bigamy as being much more variable.

And this is when they start to sort of differentiate between men and women. And a key question becomes, was the second wife, how can I put it, ruined by the bigamous marriage? So that actually becomes a lot of cross-examination of the second wife. You sometimes feel that it's her that's on trial. So did she know it was a bigamous marriage? Had she slept with him before the marriage, had she slept with anybody else? Is she willing to stay with him knowing that this is his, Bigham, all these factors are seen as mitigating the harm and resulting in a lower sentence for the bigamist.

So how has it been punished over the centuries? You mentioned being branded, but then how did it change? Yeah. Well, actually, when it's first made a crime in 60.04, it's potentially punishable by death. Now, juries are quite reluctant to convict when that's the potential punishment. But it's still there as a possibility. As I say, if they're not sentenced to hanging, they're branded, then we move on to transportation, and then we move on to imprisonment.

But there's one case that keeps being brought out. Case of Thomas Hall, it's always cited as being sentenced to a single day in prison. And this is so misleading because he actually got four months. So there's been this whole narrative about bigamy being punished really leniently when that really doesn't stack up against the evidence. Okay, so you mentioned Thomas Hall. Let's hear some more stories. I mean, one of the most shocking cases investigated is a serial bigamist. Tell us more about John Woodgate-Cinseller. Yes, John Woodgate-Cincella, I think, is probably one of the nastiest ones in my whole sample. So he really targets domestic servants who have built up a little nest egg of money after working for years.

So he advertises, he says, you know, he's a young man, he's got capital of about £30, he'd like to meet a sort of superior domestic with the same amount of capital with a view to speedy matrimony. What year was this? So this is 1900. Yeah. And he embarks on this whole sequence of bigamous marriages where, you know, he meets them, they get married very quickly, and he leaves them even more quickly. And the really appalling thing is that, you know, not only does he deceive them and take their money, he also just abandons them in public places. So he leaves one wife at Liverpool Street Station.

and in another case he's in a cab with his wife driving down the Pentonville Road and stops at a newsagents, asks her to get out and buy him some cigarettes, and then just drives off and leaves her there. Happily, she then goes to the police and all of this is uncovered, and he gets sent to prison for five years. But he comes out and he does it again, and he goes down for seven years. this time and then he comes out and he does it again and in 1918 he gets another seven years so he's

the one who's got three separate convictions and you know more time in prison than he spends with any of these wives even if you added them all together two thirds of the trials took place in the early 20th century the war years can you what can you tell us about that so I think there's a number were different reasons for that. So one is that I think you've got an increase in marital breakdown. You see divorces increasing at the same time. But the real spikes during wartime are really just driven by greater opportunities for bigamy. So one of the things that I've been sort of doing with this research, I've got a whole database of about 10,000 bigomists. And for the war years, looking very closely at where they were getting married.

And the distance between the two marriages during the war years is much bigger than in non-war years. So, you know, people are travelling around the country much more. They've got cast iron excuses for being away from home. And all of this just creates more opportunities for bigamy. And not all women were innocent, though, were they? Tell us about Barbara Wilson. Yes.

So Barbara Wilson is an actress in a repertory theatre when she meets the wealthy William Wilson. And she pretends to be a widow, but she knows full well that her first husband is still alive. And then William is actually admitted to a mental asylum. And Barbara, I think, is sort of wanting to secure her position within the family, if anything, happens to him. So she agrees with her sister that she'll basically take her sister's newborn baby and pass it over, pass it off as her own, which she does.

She pretends to be pregnant and that she's given birth to this child. The real flaw in the plan is that the sister's baby is already four months old. That's a big baby. So yes, people are suspicious and ask questions. and again, it all unravels and she's prosecuted for bigamy. How common is it today? It's much less common today. I mean, you've got obviously no-fault divorce now

and you've got cohabitation as an acceptable alternative. But I think one interesting thing is that the percentage of prosecutions really drops. in the mid-20th century. So previously, it's much more about private prosecutions. Once the initiative passes to the police to prosecute, I think you've got this real sense of, oh, this is just a domestic crime, it's not worth prosecuting,

in the same way that you see fewer prosecutions for domestic violence in that period as well. Yeah. I mean, you've brought this to life for us. You can hear your passion and really enjoying talking about it. And you've appeared on programs like, who do you think you are, and you've worked with guests including Mel B. So how do you enjoy the detective work to sort of unravel these tricky points of legal history

relating to divorce and bigamy? The detective work is such fun. You know, so often I'll take a legal case and then start borrowing beneath it. And the story that you get in the law report is not necessarily the story that emerges from the wider context. It's been such a pleasure speaking to you, Rebecca Probert, Professor of Law at the University of Exeter. Thank you so much. And we've had a message in from someone about Bigamy saying it happened to my mum and dad back in 1947.

My dad went to prison for a year and a day and then my mum remarried him. I have a brother and a sister and we are now in our 70s. Richard, thank you so much for that. 84844 is the text number. Now, over the summer, Woman's Hour is hearing from some of the academics who've been working with Radio 4 about their research. Sarah Smyth from the University of Essex has been in archives in America to look at the screenplays of the writer and director Nora Ephron.

Before her death in 2012, Efron won numerous awards, including a BAFTA, a Golden Globe. She was nominated for Academy Awards, but has her feminist reputation been watered down? She's a really interesting character because she was, one of the most successful women directors working in Hollywood. She was one of the first women filmmakers to have a film that made over $100 million at the US box office. So she was really successful and really popular, but yet she's understudied.

And I suspect that's because she works in romantic comedies. She's best known for when Harry Metzlai, Skiplice in Seattle, and you've got male. I think that the way that Nora Ephron has been assessed is as, quite a conservative filmmaker, quite an apolitical filmmaker. People look at her romantic comedies and think that she's not particularly feminist or she's not particularly progressive or she's not interested in challenging various conventions. But also she has a sort of more diverse career than that. So she made lots of other films that belong to different genres, including a gangster film, black comedies, political thrillers. And she was a very successful journalist.

and she wrote lots of cultural pieces, but this kind of complexity and this popularity and the success that she had over her lifetime has never really been thought about very seriously. So I went to various libraries and archives in the US and had a look at the early drafts for her very well-known screenplays for things like when Harry met Sally

and Sleepless in Seattle and You've Got Mail. I was interested in seeing, okay, what was her process? What I found was her screenplays were more, challenging or experimental or political or feminist or sexually explicit, then the final films ended up being. And when Harry met Sally, for example, in early drafts of the screenplays that I looked at, it's much more sexually explicit. Slevis in Seattle is another really interesting example of

Nora Eiffron exploring various things in the early drafts of the screenplays, but this sort of not being considered in the critical response of her film. So Sleaks in Seattle was very interesting because it was actually originally written by a man called Jeff Arch. He wrote the first draft of the screenplay and this draft was quite sentimental. It was quite schnaltzy and Nora F.on was actually bought on to write another draft of this script to make it more acerbic, make it more spiky, make it more spiky, make it more, comedic, and that's what she did. But when the film came out, a lot of the reviews said, oh, this film by Nora Ephron is, you know, it's overly romantic. Here's a review from Entertainment

Weekly that came out at the time of the film's release in 1993. Nora Ephron thinks in cliches. She mixes old ones from Hollywood with new ones from pop psych therapy. When Harry met Sally was like one of Woody Allen's urban valentines turned into a TV series, and sleepless in Seattle lacks even that movie's intense peppering of jokes. It's like a 50s tearjerker, synthesized by microchip. What Efron misses about the classic romantic weepers is their delicately sexy sparkle. She gets the corn, or an abstract approximation of it,

without the smolder. The gender politics of this, I think, are quite clear that Nora Ephron, as a woman, gets accused of being, you know, too sentimental and too romantic. But what's interesting actually is that it was a man who wrote this originally as being quite sweet and sentimental and a woman was bought on to make it much more spiky and to bring a bit of edge to it. A film that often gets forgotten from Nora Ephron's back catalogue is this film called Silkwood,

which stars Merrill Street. and it's about a woman who worked in a plutonium plant called Karen Silkwood. She was a woman who really lived. And she became very involved in her plutonium plants union. And she became a whistleblower because the conditions that she was working under and her colleagues were working under were really unsafe. So Nora Efron, along with a woman called Alice Arlen, wrote screenplay for this film. And what's really interesting is that in the earlier drafts of their screenplays,

the politics are, I think, much more comprehensive. and I think more left-wing, they're more pro-union. They really challenged the company that owned the plutonium plant much more. It's also got much more interesting LGBTQ politics because we have a lesbian character in the film who's played by Cher. And this was much more explicit in the previous drafts of the screenplay. And this eventually got changed, negotiated, and I think that the political edge was really taken off it

as the film went through production and post-production. Another interesting example was her film, Heartburn. So she wrote a novel Heartburn, which is based on her life and based on her separation with her husband, Carl Bernstein, who discovered the Watergate scandal. And she wrote a screenplay for this film as well. And I saw some memos based on this screenplay. And the studio was very concerned that Nora Eiffon screenplay

was too experimental and it was trying to play with the form too much. It was breaking the fourth wall. It had these fantasy sequences. It had these dream sequences. Some of the producers who were looking at this film, some of the studio executives who were looking at this screenplay said, this seems too much like a Woody Allen film. This seems too much like Annie Hall,

which had just come out a few years earlier. And I think that's an example of, in that instance, Woody Allen had sort of loomed too large in the cultural landscape. people associated those kinds of things, like the fantasy sequences, the dream sequences, breaking the fourth wall with him. And therefore, Nora Ephron didn't have access to using those kinds of things in her screenplay. And that's a woman's voice being kind of lost in a way, because Heartburn is a revenge story, telling a story about her husband who cheated on her and who treated her really badly. Nora Ephron was a Hollywood filmmaker. She worked for Hollywood Studios.

and they would have had various kinds of demands as well. So in her romantic comedies, they may have wanted this to be less sexually explicit, for example, so they could sort of package and market it and sell it in a particular way. So I want to restore her reputation as someone who, as a filmmaker, as well as a journalist and writer, was someone who was feminist, was challenging, was interesting and was complicated. Sarah Smyth from the University of Essex talking about. the writer and director Nora Ephron and off the back of a chicken shop date,

Amelia being here, who is refreshingly awkward, as she describes herself, I asked you about your awkward moments and you did not disappoint. Turned up to help at a Roman day at school in full toga, laurel head wreath and wine flagon to find that nobody else had dressed up, then forgot to take any spare clothes

and had to go to a tennis lesson in a toga. Yeah, but to me, you're the legend. Another one here. Most embarrassing situation for me, me, cleaning a friend's empty remote house in my bra and knickers due to very hot weather. When the local vicar turns up at the kitchen window, I scream the place down with language of vicar shouldn't really hear Diane or maybe see, I don't know. Brilliant. Keep them coming in. 84844. Now, the American soprano Angel Blue will be performing Samuel Barber's Knoxville

summer of 1915 at the BBC proms at the Royal Albert Hall this Saturday. Angel has previously sung at the last night of the proms where she sported a Union Jack Jester's hat for the traditional performance of rural Britannia. She's performed a wide range of roles including Violetta in La Traviata and Donna Elvira in Don Giovanni and she's won a Grammy Award for her role in Porgie and Bess. Well, Angel joins me here in the studio, but before we speak to her, let's hear that voice. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. It's so wonderful to be here. Hearing that, spine tingling, What was it like for you listening back to your own voice? Oh, it's a beautiful memory.

I haven't heard that in so long. Have you got a bit teary? I am, yes. Oh, tell us. Share with me what's happening. It's just my journey. And being in London, it's very overwhelming. It's in a great way.

Yeah. It's not a bad overwhelming in any sense of that word. It's joyful. It's exciting. I feel honored. I feel grateful. I'm so thankful for all of the hardships and the good times. All of it has led me to where I am.

And I also know how hard I worked on that music to learn it. rewarded for it. Yes, yes. We all received a Grammy Award for it. And then the following year, we won another Grammy for a fire shut up in my bones. So I just, it's just so awesome to be here. Thank you for this opportunity. Oh, my God. Thank you. You're the beautiful talent who brings this incredible voice to us. So tell us what it means for you to be performing back at the proms. You'll be there on Saturday night at the Royal Albert Hall, as I mentioned, performing Samuel Barbers, Knoxville, Summer of 1915. What does it mean to be in London? It's so special. And that question is filled with so much information.

I want to be succinct when I say that I'm, this is one of my favorite places to sing in the UK. And of course, in London, especially because I used to live here. I had a lot of opportunities here when I first came in 2013 to sing museta at the E&O, the English National Opera. The proms is very special to me because I was actually a presenter, if I may call myself that, in 2015. 15 and 2017. And then my very first time I was supposed to sing at the proms was 2022. And actually,

we were all ready to perform and to sing. And I was supposed to sing Knoxville. But Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth I second, passed away. So the entire atmosphere of the theater change. And of course, we didn't do the performance. So my first time, my debut at the proms was the last night of the proms. So having this performance on Saturday is, it's poignant because this will actually sort of in a way be like my real, in a way, my real introduction to singing in the, like in the lineup of the proms, if that makes any sense. Yeah, I mean, in my mind, I was like, oh, she's a veteran of the proms, but actually now you've explained it Saturday is a huge deal. I think we should hear a clip of you at last night of the prom singing viscate. Angel, you have a gift. We know that.

I mean, so beautiful. I'm going to, well, let's go back and hear your story, you know, because obviously you're feeling overwhelmed with emotion, listening to your own voice. But also it's the significance of you singing at the proms. And we were talking a fair bit about London, which we'll get to. But you were four years old when your parents took you to your first concert. And it was your dad. Your father is also a classically trained singer. So tell me about music and growing up.

Oh, my goodness. My parents love opera. And I should say loved for my dad. My father passed away almost 20 years ago. This year, it will be 20. 20 years. And he was always just listening to, he listened to everything, of course. You know, I grew up listening to bluegrass, to country, to folk music, to everything. And, and, and, but opera was his passion, really, and gospel. But my parents took me to, in Cleveland, Ohio,

they took me to see the opera Turando by Puccini. I was four. I don't know why they thought I was going to be still. I don't know why they thought I should be there. And I'm one of five kids, but I was the one that they took. And I remember watching. the concert and I saw this woman in this giant gown, this blue gown. I can see it in my head and she was in this just radiant light. And I was, my mom said I was transfixed on this woman. And so I looked at my dad and I said, dad, I want to be like the woman and the lady in the light. And my dad had this beautiful, big smile just from this gorgeous grin from ear to ear. And he looked down at me and he said, Angel, you can of course be like the lady in the light.

And, you know, I never had an idea in my head that that wasn't going to be me. I think somewhere in my heart, in my spirit, somewhere I just knew that that was sort of like my destiny. And at least I was going to try to make it that. And at four years old, I remember having just these goosebumps all up and down my arm and just not being able to take my eyes away from the stage. And I'm so honored because I get to do that today. That's my job. You're the lady in the light.

What a beautiful story. Thank you. It's so interesting, isn't it, that they chose to take you? Yes. That you saw it happen. You wanted that. It's a good job you can sing. Yeah, that's true.

So let's talk about the singing, but also the performance aspects of it, because you've performed such a wide range of roles. How does when you're on stage performing in opera affect the singing? Give us a sense of what's happening when you're on stage. I feel that, well, first of all, I have to say, just full disclosure, I'm always nervous. there's always an ounce of nerves. I've heard some performers say that they don't have any nerves, but I do. And I think it's just because I want to do, I want to do well for me, and I hope that the audience enjoys it. Because I know that everyone doesn't enjoy the performances, even opera buffs don't always enjoy it.

So I think the first thing that I feel always almost is nerves. But then after that, I sort of, I can find, I find myself going into this, what I call the zone, which is just really becoming the character. it's not a fully staged opera or if it's a recital or a concert, I find myself just really becoming really one with the music, one with the text, and then hopefully all of that honesty comes out of me and the audience feels that. Can we talk about nerves actually? Yes. It's so interesting to hear you say that. How do you have a technique? How do you overcome those nerves? And this might be something that people listening will be able to use in their own lives, maybe. Yes. Well, my husband introduced me to something called the power pose.

So for two minutes, and I do this right before I go on stage, I'll put my hands on my waist, and I'm quiet for two minutes. And I just look straight ahead and I'm breathing the entire time. Sometimes I'll say a Bible verse. Sometimes I'll pray. Sometimes I'll think of just whatever it is that's going to kind of pull me out of myself. Because ultimately the performance, this might sound strange. It's not about me. It's not.

I'm a vessel. it's something much bigger than me but I do get to be used to be a part of the performance to uplift my spirit and hopefully uplift others so it's it's way beyond me it's way past little angel you know but I love the power pose I also I've been lifting weights here for almost the last two years

sometimes I'll have weights in my room and just the idea of lifting or doing push-ups before kind of takes me out of the you look incredible thank you I appreciate that I'm looking at your arms I'm like I need to to do some amends. We talk a lot about the importance of sort of keeping physically well and we've talked about weight training, the older we get as women, but actually your sort of health journey

is because you got a diagnosis of type 2 diabetes. Tell me what that did to you. Yes, well, I saw my father go through a really difficult transition when he was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes and eventually that's what the complications from that is what took his life. So, and as well as both of my grandmothers, my dad's mom had a lower body amputation and so did my father. So diabetes is something that in my family, we can all get it and we're all aware of it. But when I had the diagnosis, my doctor just looked at me right in the face and said, listen, you're too young to have all of these issues and they're directly, it's all coming from your weight. So I said to her, okay, I'm going to do the best that I can to change my life. She wanted to put me on several

different medications and because I travel so much, that's very hard to do. So I honestly, how did you do it? Took charge. And I encouraged myself to try to change my lifestyle. And it's been, you know, one thing at a time. But we are on women's hours. So I want to say this. Hopefully it doesn't, it's not meant to say anyone should, but it is meant to encourage women. You know, I'm probably just around the 10-year mark before menopause. And, you know, I saw my mom. really start to take care of her health when she was around my age, mid-40s, and she started going to Jazzercise and she was doing all these Jane Fonda videos. What's mom's name?

Mama Sylvia. Sylvia. I love Sylvia at Jazzerc. Yes. She's the woman of the hour always. She really is. And she told me and encouraged me. I also have three older sisters, and they were just like, you know, take care of yourself

now so that as we age, we can do better as we, as we, as best as we can to our ability, you know, because I understand there are things that are out of our control. Of course. Yes. Good advice. Nice to think about your mom as well at Jazzercise. You've compared your lifestyle to a Looney Tunes character, Tasmanian Devil. Yes. Why is that? Because I'm sort of always on the go. I feel like I'm kind of always as an opera singer mainly because I'm in one city, one country, singing one opera that I jet off somewhere else. And then I'm in another place singing a different opera, different language, meeting people all of the time. What a life. I have to say it's a huge blessing it's a huge blessing but it does get tiring

I bet how do you feel about being in London I'm thrilled I'm so thrilled I could talk like for five or six hours about this wonderful city so I'm thankful to be here I'm honored to sing at the proms and just so happy to be back in the UK and what will you be doing whilst you're in London

I know you're here for a very brief period yes well I used to live here I lived here for three years and I still have my storage unit So I need to probably visit my storage unit What's in the storage unit? I think it's a lot of music scores and old clothing that hopefully now I can maybe fit because it was over 10 years ago that I got the storage.

Is this because you want to move to the UK? This is absolutely true, yes. Let's make it happen. Angel, come, be here. And how are you preparing for Saturday? What do you do? Any big, apart from the weights and the pose, the power pose? I'm spending time with my friends. I'm staying at a beautiful friend's house in Holborn

and I'm enjoying my just my time here, just enjoying the people, the fresh air of London, the culture. Wonderful. Yes. Well, I'm really delighted

that you made time to come and speak to us in amongst all of that. Thank you. Thank you. Angel Blue performs at the BBC proms with the Cheneke Orchestra and conductor Jonathan Hayward

on Saturday the 22nd of August and you can listen live on BBC Radio 3 and BBC Sounds. Angel, thank you so much. That's all for me, but do come back tomorrow morning at 10am. We will be back with more Women's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Greg Jenner. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. And we are back for a 12th series. Everyone in that film is wearing their own pants. We're joined by comedians like Kyle Smith Bino and Desiree Birch.

Can't see how this would go wrong. We'll meet many medieval saints. Motivational speaker saint. With a sort of Madonna hedger. Mike on. We're doing a history of underwear. Plus, there's loads more. You're dead to me.

Listen on BBC Sounds.