Woman's Hour - Amy Dowden, Syrian Women's Affairs Office, Nancy in Oliver!

Episode Date: December 23, 2024

Strictly Come Dancing professional dancer Amy Dowden was diagnosed with stage 3 breast cancer last year, and she shared her treatment journey in a BBC documentary. Now, Amy is preparing for a comeback with the show's live tour, as well as a tour of her own: Reborn, with dancer Carlos Gu. Amy joins Krupa Padhy to tell us more.South Korea is currently experiencing huge-scale protests against President Yoon Suk Yeol. Young women are instrumental to these protests, campaigning against the President who is often seen as a representation of a patriarchal society. BBC News Correspondent Jean Mackenzie is in Seoul – she joins Krupa to tell us more about the role being played by women.Metal detecting is an activity often linked to men, but there’s a women-only metal detecting group on Facebook that has thousands of members. Jade Cuttle is a member – she’s also a BBC New Generation Thinker, journalist & PhD Researcher at Cambridge. She joins Krupa to tell us why she thinks more women should consider taking it up as a hobby.In a significant development for Syria, Aisha al-Dibs has been appointed as the head of the Women's Affairs Office under the Syrian interim government. What does this mean for women in Syria, and what has their reaction been? Krupa speaks to Dr Rim Turkmani, Director of Syria Conflict Research Programme at the London School of Economics.As a new production of Oliver! hits the West End, we look at the character of Nancy. Who was she and what does she mean to us today? Professor Jenny Hartley, academic advisor to the Charles Dickens Museum, and Shanay Holmes, who is playing Nancy in the new production, join Krupa to discuss Nancy and to perform a song from the musical. Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bhatti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Thank you for being with us at the start of this festive week. For some people around the world, the year is ending with more questions than answers. In Syria, there are thoughts about the consequences and the next steps after the fall of the Assad family. As the nation looks to carve out a new future, its interim government is now starting to take shape. And that includes a head of women's affairs. Her name is Aisha Al-Dibs. And we're going to learn more about her and what her role might mean for the women of Syria.

And from Syria to South Korea, which over the weekend saw yet more protests, both for and against President Yun, a week after his impeachment for imposing a short-lived martial law. Our correspondent in the capital will tell us how women have been leading the way in the protests in a nation that has long treasured its democracy. We're also joined by the Strictly Come Dancing star Amy Dowden, who was diagnosed with breast cancer last year. She made a comeback on the show this season

and has been telling me all about her tour called Reborn and staying with the theme of creative stars. The new Oliver has hit London's West End. The production's very own Nancy, played by Sinead Holmes, will be singing for us live. Very excited about that. And here is what I want to hear from you about this hour. Niche hobbies. Do you have one? Do you plan to nurture one in 2025? I ask because the number of women taking up metal detecting is growing. Jade Cuttle is one of them and she's going to

be showing me some of what she has unearthed. Now I had a bit of a browse online this morning for niche hobbies that others had listed and they range from collecting ants and fire eating to growing micro greens indoors and fixing old VCRs. What is yours? You can text the programme, that number is 84844. On social media, we are at BBC Women's Hour. And of course, you can email us through our website. You can text us our WhatsApp number or audio voice note us, that number is 03700 100 444. All of our terms and conditions can be found over on our website. How did you find your niche hobby? What do you love about it? Maybe it is so specific that you have struggled to find someone with a similar interest.

Whatever your story about what keeps your mind and your soul captured, do get in touch. We do want to hear all about it. Strictly come dancing professional dancer Amy Dowden was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer last year and underwent chemotherapy and a mastectomy, sharing her journey in a BBC documentary. This year, Amy made a tremendous return to Strictly with her celebrity partner JB Gill, but her journey was cut short due to injury.

Despite this setback, Amy is getting ready for a comeback with the show's live tour, but that is not all. Starting in March, Amy and fellow Strictly Come Dancing star Carla Skoo will be dazzling audiences across the UK with their own brand new tour, Reborn. Add to that, Amy has released a book called Dancing in the Rain. I spoke to her earlier and I asked her how she was getting on. I'm really lucky to have incredible family and friends around me

for the support. I'm forever grateful to the incredible family and friends around me for the support. I'm forever grateful to the NHS who are just incredible. The oncology unit, the Sheldon unit who took care of me. Honestly, they are the unsung heroes. And I guess I've always had that drive and determination to get back on the dance floor. And for me, my dancing has been my saviour. It gives me a goal, a purpose to fight back, really. And I know that owning the story of your journey was really important to you, wasn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to be in control of it. And I was trying to turn such a negative time into a positive by sharing my journey with hopefully get other people checking themselves because I never thought at 32 I'd be diagnosed with breast cancer but if I wasn't checking myself because of the incredible charity Copperfield then I wouldn't be here right now so if I could help raise awareness get others checking themselves and hopefully I could save some lives because early detection you know early can prevent and save lives you frame that so positively but it hasn't always been easy being so transparent has it no absolutely not it has been tough and i'd

be lying if i didn't say so and it's been times where i've just wanted to you know when i have done close the door scream shout and cry and i think that is part of any you know cancer or chronic illness diagnosis um it certainly isn't a smooth journey there's no textbook on how to deal with it everybody has their own way and they shouldn't be told you know or compare themselves to others you've got to do what's right for you there's certainly no textbook on how to deal with a cancer diagnosis and i took it day by day yeah well you look wonderful you look really well um thank. And I know that you returned to Strictly Come Dancing this year. You had to withdraw because of a foot injury.

And your partner, JB Gill, went on to the final with Lauren Oakley. You did make that surprise appearance in the final, which was wonderful to see. But how was it to watch all that unfold from the sidelines? Obviously, I was utterly devastated when I had to withdraw from the competition. My goal since those words, oh, sorry, Amy, you've got cancer, was to get back on that strictly dance floor. And I had, and I had JB, who I knew had the potential to go all the way, make the final. I was having the best time living my life again.

And then, yeah, for it suddenly to be taken away from me was just heartbreaking. And I kept saying why me why why am I dealt such bad luck but you know at the same time I'm so proud of myself for getting back on the dance floor nine months after grueling chemotherapy mastectomy you name it and yeah I look back now and I'm proud of what I've achieved and I was so proud of JB to go all the way with the lovely Lauren Oakley. They created so many incredible routines. And yeah, I was rooting for them. Obviously, it was tough

because I wanted to be out there dancing with him. But equally, I was so proud of him. Well, you were part of that win. Yeah, exactly. I did half the journey. So, super proud. You'll be joining the Strictly tour next year. And separately, you're hitting the stage again

with your new tour Reborn starting in March tell us what audiences can expect. So Carlos Gu a fellow rugby pro and I are going to be going around the country with our new dance show and it's basically reborn me after my cancer diagnosis and coming back I feel like a new person and we're going to take the audience through a journey basically our lives and we're going to take the audience through a journey basically our lives and we're going to go through the emotions through the highs the lows the triumphs hopefully leaving people feeling inspired and showing true traditional ballroom and latin dancing flamenco dancing argentine tango dancing it's going to be dramatic it's going to be energetic and we've got an amazing cast of dancers and singers and yeah

I'm just super excited to be back doing what I love after having my dancing taken away from me and I can't wait to be performing up close and personal in theatres again. You sound incredibly positive and clearly the title Reborn speaks to your tremendous journey over the past year. Do you feel vulnerable at all taking on this journey? Because first of all, many people who are recovering from cancer would not ever imagine themselves dancing on stage to thousands of people. Yet here you are doing that. And whilst you are incredibly upbeat, that too must come with a range of emotions. I'm just so excited I'm back doing what I love and I think with cancer doesn't come any discrimination people get back to

being a nurse being a school teacher you know being a you know an amazing mum or whatever so yeah I'm back doing what I love I'm back doing my job and all I know in my life so yeah I'm super excited and hopefully I can give hope to others who, unfortunately, are being dealt with the blow of a cancer diagnosis. We've seen you in the studio working out in various clips. Dancing, especially at your level, requires a very high level of fitness. How has that process been regaining that energy level? Oh, it's been tough. My rehab has been my toughest journey yet and from any injury or my Crohn's flare-ups or anything and it's still ongoing but I guess you know there's been moments where I'm like why am I doing this why am I putting myself with this but then when you're back on the

floor and that adrenaline rush from performing live and doing what I love again makes everything so worthwhile and so rewarding for all the hard work. There are cancer support charities who encourage people to engage with dancing what are the benefits in your opinion of dancing if you're going through this? Oh I think it's that joy of learning something new the music the energy you know like the dolphins you release meeting new people being around others for me it's just total joy yes and I guess it takes me away from my everyday life and my worries I get lost basically within the movement and the music and I express myself through dance. Yeah and it's important to stress that whilst it could be beneficial for a lot of people

it may not be feasible for some people and it's really important to seek medical guidance as well. Yeah that's why I say everyone's cancer journey is so different. And you should never compare yourself to anybody else. Yeah. You mentioned your Crohn's disease there. You were diagnosed at 18. You'd been suffering with symptoms since the age of 11, hospitalized many times. How did you cope with that growing up, especially watching your twin sister enjoy this carefree life? And how did it impact your dancing you know it that was tough and I guess because it happened at such a young age I didn't know any different but I do think it instilled the determination in me because you know people would

say oh you want me as a dancer or they'd just be asking me about my health and I wanted them to be asking me about my dancing and I kind of had this little fire in my belly then that, you know, right, I'm not Amy McCrone. I'm Amy the dancer. I'll show them. You're the one living in my body. You're not the one living with this pain. And when I am well, I'm going to make the most of it.

I'm going to push myself. I know what true pain is like. So when I'm in that training room, I can really push. And I try to look at it now as that it's made me the person who I am today. Yes, I'd do anything in the world not to suffer with it I can't change chronic conditions I think I will live with for the rest of my life but yeah I try not to dwell on it I try to you know obviously there are times when I do and whenever I'm having a flare-up and I'm having some really rotten times with pain sickness you name it I do try not to let it define me as much as I possibly can. And I'll forever do all I can to raise awareness, break the stigma and to help others.

And for all your efforts raising awareness of Crohn's, an inflammatory bowel disease, you have been awarded an MBE. How does it feel to receive such a recognition? Oh, it's so surreal. People say to me, Amy, do you have an MBE? I'm like, it does. It's still, it hasn't sunk in yet I'm going to the palace early next year to receive it um and I can't wait and I just feel totally honoured and

I will do for the rest of my life all I possibly can to help raise awareness raise money and to do what we can for this awful chronic illness. There was a moment in the coverage of your of your cancer treatment where your where your dad I think mentioned that your Crohn's journey had almost prepared you for what you were about to face for cancer made you more resilient would you would you agree with that? Yes because I was used to long hospital stays I was used to tests blood tests injections pain and I knew what it felt like you know to be at an all-time low and to have to dig deep. I know a used to tests, blood tests, injections, pain. And I knew what it felt like, you know, to be at an all-time low and to have to dig deep. I know a friend of mine who'd also been through breast cancer.

She'd never had a hospital stay before or an MRI or anything like that. So everything was so daunting to hear where I had experienced all that before in a different way. And you mentioned the pain a few times. Are you able to even put into words what that pain feels like? It's excruciating. It's 10 out of 10. When I have the Crohn's flare up,

it's like no other pain I've ever experienced. It really is. But it's that bad that it can cause me to pass out. When you talk about that pain scale and this being full on, how do you go about managing it? On one hand, you've got the medical treatment, but mentally and physically, how do you go about managing it? I think it's something I've had to learn over time that I know this too shall pass.

I use that quote a lot. Don't get bitter, get better. And I guess it's knowing that I will get through this now, which I've had to. I've learned through experience of all my flare-ups. And I do, like, I learn, like, not to bottle things up. A nurse once said to me, and it's the best piece of advice, don't hold a ring if you need to cry, let it out, Amy. So now, yeah, if I need to, I have a good cry.

You know, I pick up the phone, I have a good rant to my friends or my husband. I think it's important to have that network around you and yeah not to hold things in basically to let you to release it and you'll feel so much better afterwards. That's good advice let's talk about Strictly again we're going to go back to what's happening in Strictly I mean it's a platform you have been a part of since 2017 the program itself has faced quite a bit of scrutiny of late with talk about a toxic culture, complaints about bullying,

harassment. How in your opinion has this impacted the atmosphere backstage, if at all? For me, I obviously wasn't part of the show. Well, I was part of the show, but when all this was happening, but I was fighting my own battle, my cancer journey, and I was

going to strictly for relief of everything I was fighting my own battle um my cancer journey and I was going to Strictly for relief of everything I was doing at the time um but for me all I can say on my personal experience is that it says everything when I'm handed a cancer diagnosis and all I want to do is get back to Strictly come dancing for me the welfare the support the love has been incredible and Strictly has got me through the darkest of times. And I'm incredibly grateful to them. They do all they possibly can to look after every single member of the team. And I'm incredibly proud to be part of this team. One of the concerns highlighted was the way in which professional dancers approach teaching and performing.

What would you say about that? Well, I run a dance academy and I teach from the age of two right up to the age of 90 and I have safeguarding everything in place and I would say that yeah I'm proud of the way I teach. Yeah well in response to the concerns the BBC have since introduced new measures including training room observers, a professional dance welfare producer and a production team member present during training rehearsals what do you make of those commitments yeah absolutely outstanding and yeah that's why i said the bbc will do all it can to protect everybody involved in the show now you have said that you were going to be on strictly since the age of 14 this is when it all kicked off back in 2004 you were just 14

years old you announced to your parents when I grow up I'm going to be on Strictly now you've done it you've ticked off that massive goal on your list and not many kids can actually say that the thing they dreamt of when they when they were kids actually comes true so what next for you? Oh do you know what I'm still just yeah living the dream of being on Strictly come dancing and if they'll have me back next year, you know, I want to continue doing what I love, and that's dancing. And I'd love one day, obviously, to lift that glitter ball. But, yeah, I'm proud to be doing all I can to raise awareness for breast cancer in young women, for Crohn's and colitis,

obviously with my tall reborn coming out next year in spring. So I'm loving all avenues of that. And I do love doing some presenting as well. I've done over the past few years. I'd love to continue learning and exploring those avenues as well. But at the moment, I'm just making the most of every second,

every beat on that dance floor whilst I can. We are just days away from Christmas, Amy. Is it going to feel like a very different Christmas this year? Yeah, absolutely. Last year, I was still quite poorly, still getting over everything with chemotherapy and, you know, scared, anxious, wondering would my life ever resume. So yeah, this year is going to be one big celebration with my family. We've got Carla Skoo, who I'm doing my reborn tour with next year.

Strictly professional, coming to stay with us again. Yeah, super excited and can't wait. All of our best wishes to Amy Dowden there speaking to me. And the Reborn tour starts in March. I do want to squeeze in some of your wonderful messages that we're getting in on niche hobbies. Jane writes that she makes bags and other items out of old pairs of denim jeans she says that she buys the denim from charity shops at four to five pounds and uses everything she can that's the zips the belt carriers every single bit nothing goes to waste

and this one writes my niche hobby i decorate found animal skull Now, my question to you, where do you find them? Keep those messages coming in 848, or 8488, thank you. Do keep them coming in. Now, let's go to South Korea, where protests are ongoing surrounding the country's impeached President Yoon Suk-yool. Have a listen to this.

Crowds calling for the president's impeachment last week. Now you can hear a lot of women's voices there and that's because young women are forming a big part of these protests. Joining me now is our correspondent in the capital Seoul, Jean McKenzie. Thanks for being with us, Jean. For those who haven't been following this story, sum up if you can how President Yoon has reached this point of impeachment. Well, so it's been about three weeks of this political drama that's been unfolding here in South Korea. So about three weeks ago, the president decided, pretty much a surprise to everybody, a total shock that he was going to try and place

the country under martial law. Now, that meant that he was essentially going to suspend parliament, he was going to bring in the army to run the country. This is sort of akin to what South Korea used to do back in its days of military dictatorships decades ago. It is not something that South Koreans now with their sort of thriving democracy are used to. And so we had this night a few weeks ago where the army stormed the parliament. They tried to stop the parliamentarians from being able to gather. There were huge protests. And very quickly, actually, the parliamentarians were able to get into the parliament.

They voted it down. And this attempt at martial law was abandoned. So it only lasted for a couple of hours. But people were so angry, this was seen as such an excessive overreach of the president's power that they started protesting. And they were protesting every single night until last weekend, the president was impeached. So the members of parliament voted to remove him from office after huge pressure from the public here. It's been an incredible two weeks that have really changed the country as we as we know it. Tell us about the protest and how women have been involved specifically. Yeah, so it's really been remarkable to see because we've been to quite a few of these protests and each time we

were you know struck by how many young women there have been and these protests were happening every night it's absolutely freezing in South Korea at the moment and these young women were on the front line all wrapped up with their k-pop glow sticks and blaring k-pop anthems and we were saying to ourselves me and my team like gosh there's so many young women here. But then we started to get the statistics and it turned out that actually women, just women in their 20s were making up nearly a quarter of these protests. And what's so interesting about this is you have to look back at kind of where they're coming from. So when this president was elected, he actually played on a quite sharp gender divide in this country. So there had been this gender war playing out between young men and women here. And when the election came around,

it was really on a knife edge between the two candidates. And at the last minute, the president decided that he was going to try and exploit this gender divide. He was going to try and win the votes of young men. And so to do this, he came out and he made some quite anti-feminist statements. He declared that gender discrimination wasn't a problem in South Korea anymore. He even said that if he was elected, he was going to abolish the country's gender equality ministry. So this is the ministry that supports women and families. So from the off, he really made enemies of young women. They saw him as a president that was very anti-feminist and not out to protect them. So there was, people were saying, quite a sort of poetic justice that in the end,

it was really young women who came out in force to bring him down because they had been so angry with him from the start. Jean, you mentioned K-pop there, and is a girls group called Girls' Generation that's become sort of an anthem for these protests. The organisers think about two million people came onto the street that Saturday and just all the young women in the crowd just jumped up and they were hugging each other and they were crying and you had, as you say, this kind of very classic K-pop anthem by Girls' Generation playing out and it's called Into the New World.

So it was seen as very apt in many different ways. And the protests have taken on this feeling of kind of celebration and parties. And that's quite often the case with protests in South Korea. Protests are very common here. People know how to organise, it's a very new democracy. And so people have this memory of when they had to protest not so long ago to bring down these military dictatorships. So they're, they're kind of a bit of an old hand at it, really. But they did take on this really kind of party life. But young people, as you say,

driving them, gave them more of this party atmosphere and this kind of K-pop element to them. Jean, you talked about there being a gender war playing out and the authorities, the leadership making enemies of women. And we have had another development in the past few weeks there in South Korea, the university protests also involving women. Tell us about those. Yeah, so I mean, this is part of, as I said, this gender war that's been playing out here in South Korea for about sort of eight years now. So women in South Korea, this is still a very patriarchal society. Women are discriminated against. There's quite a lot of misogyny, sexual violence. There have been cases over the last 10 years, quite high profile cases of sexual violence that have made women here feel quite unsafe. So for example, you had

a real problem with hidden cameras. So men hiding cameras in women's changing rooms and women's toilets and filming them and posting the content online. Also, there has been a big problem with deep fakes, particularly amongst schools and universities. So students have been making deep fake pornographic images of their classmates. So all this has led to a society in which women feel not only discriminated against, but they feel unsafe. They feel unsafe in public spaces. They feel unsafe on the internet. And one of the universities here played a big role in really trying to champion women's rights. And particularly when South Korea was incredibly patriarchal, they were a way to help women advance. So you have these women-only universities. And recently, some of the universities decided, or they started discussing whether they were going to start admitting men for some of the courses and women were just outraged they started protesting they felt that they weren't

consulted and this was just a way of bringing men into one of the spaces where they felt safe and they felt protected a space that they felt was there to champion them interesting times for the country thank you so much our correspondent in seoul, Jean McKenzie, for us with the very latest. And as ever, there's plenty more on our Asia pages online. I should give you the correct text number, which I didn't earlier. It's 84844, because I really do want to keep getting your messages on niche hobbies.

An update from the woman who talks about collecting animal skulls, and I asked her where she finds them. She says that she lives in France in a limestone gorge, and we have vultures that clean the skulls and I asked her where she finds them. She says that she lives in France in a limestone gorge and we have vultures that clean the skulls, I find. And it is because of the next story that we are indeed talking about this. 2025 will mark 100 years since the first portable metal detector was made available. And it might be seen as a bit of a male hobby, but over the years, a number of women taking up metal detecting has grown. Now, it was brought to our screens in the BBC comedy series, The Detectorists.

It's something that conjures up images of men combing fields and beaches looking for hidden treasure. But now more women are choosing to get involved with one woman-only metal detecting group on Facebook, attracting more than 23,000 members. I've got one of them with me, Jane Cuttle. Welcome. She is a BBC New Generation Thinker. That is a scheme run since 2010, a jointly run scheme by the Arts and Humanities Research Council and the BBC, where 10 early career academics are chosen to come and make programmes with the BBC.

Jade was one of them chosen in 2024. She's also a journalist and currently doing a PhD at Cambridge University. But most importantly for us in this moment, she is a metal detectorist. Jane joins me in the studio now with a few of her finds. Welcome. Thank you. It's lovely to be here. Now, first of all, tell us how you came across this hobby. Yeah, I think detectorist, like you mentioned, was probably the first time I saw detecting on the screen. Obviously, Time Team as well, which I got really into during lockdown. But it was when I got a voucher from work, actually, just a £50 kind of voucher,

that I thought, what should I buy that's going to be interesting? So I went on Amazon and I bought a detector, a very bad detector at that. I didn't really find anything I had to upgrade, but it was definitely through Time Team and Detectorist that I thought, why not give it a go? What did you find or what have you found so far? You've got some of them with you, your finds. I have, yeah.

I've got buckles and... I'm going to stand up here and have a peek. Lots of buttons. Yeah, some of the military ones are quite interesting. So here we can see... Oh, let me have a look. There's a trumpet on that one. Oh, stretching over here. Oh, there you go let me have a look there's a trumpet on that one stretching over here oh there you go um there's a trumpet

and there's the number 68 yeah what's that about well initially you might think okay so it's maybe made in like 1968 but actually when you start um going down the wormhole of of um of the internet you find out that actually it's a bit older than you think so this particular button is um from like 1758 onwards that's when the 68th Durham Light Infantry was um was raised and yeah I love the wormholes that you go down with these things so the buckles that have um the kind of the outfitters names on you you get to go down the the paths of history and figure out who might have won these and that's the key draw finding out these stories definitely yeah back to you there hold on I don't want to go home with it yeah definitely um also got a musket bowl

here so it's nice to have a it's a very heavy one if you're handing another one over okay oh wow that's quite heavy isn't it that's incredible that's incredible um what skills do you need do you need any when you first started did, did you even know where to start? So it is like kind of learning a new language, I'd say. Definitely at the start, I was kind of digging up every tone that I would hear. But like any language, you have to listen, you have to spend time getting to know it. So you don't dig every chatter, every murmur of sound that you hear now. You kind of tune into what you think

might actually be something significant. So yeah, it's taken a lot of time to be able to sift through that. But yeah, I love the idea of being able to speak with the ground and also the people whose lives are kind of represented in these objects. Because of you, like I said, we've been asking this question about niche hobbies.

I do want to bring you a few of the messages that we have been getting in. Katie says that her niche hobby is learning historical dances from 1650 to 1750. That's very specific. She's been doing that for three years. She says the music is wonderful. Learning the dances is a challenge physically and mentally. Plus, the dances are notated in a really fascinating way.

I've made lots of new like-minded friends and I just love it. On the subject of friends have you built up a community around this yeah definitely I mean the sassy searchers is one of the women only groups that we have in in Britain that's kind of got 2,200 people on Facebook now and we organize events across the United Kingdom and obviously mentioned the the 23,000 person group which that's that's a really great resource. But I love that niche hobby that you just mentioned. And it actually reminds me of how once you start in these niche hobbies.

So I started mudlarking and then kind of upgraded a little bit to metal detecting and then also medieval reenacting. So kind of similar to the listener who just texted in. Once you get that bug for reliving history and being able to touch and experience it it's quite hard to stop yeah you mentioned the equipment at the start is it is it all quite expensive or there's a various range and how much does that impact what you can actually find yeah so the 50 pound detector that I got first is not a good place to start but you know you have to start somewhere it was just getting used to holding it so obviously I've put a lot more you know a few hundred and some people pay you know a thousand um for a good detector and yeah it's you don't necessarily need to get paid a thousand pounds to get a good detector but um the more you invest the kind of the more accurate some of the signals are going to be yeah and I guess that

impacts who's actually drawn to the hobby in the first place yeah definitely but like I said I started with 50 pound and like here I am, I've got some fascinating finds. Somewhere to start always. There is this message from Hannah who says, last week I was at Clifton Lido in Bristol for my birthday and the pool was closed for a synchronised swimming performance. About 20 women in their 50s to 70s

paraded out to the poolside in white swimming costumes and silver sequined swimming caps and proceeded to make star shapes and hearts and lift each other in the water in time to Christmas music. It was so unexpected and brilliant. I hope they continue with their niche hobby. I hope they do too, Hannah.

Thank you for sharing that. I mean, that's a group activity. And we talked about the group that you've started to nurture, but it is a largely male dominated world. How's that impacted your hobby and how you've played it out? Yeah, so at first, I was a bit nervous. You know, I was the only kind of woman. And you know, you arrive and everyone, you know, these middle aged men who turn out to be lovely, I must add, they're arriving in camouflage. So you know, they've got their pouches ready to go. Yeah it is quite overwhelming at first because obviously you know i wasn't dressed like that

um at all you know i had trainers on um not not heavy duty boots um but you know like i said i've been really taken under the wing by a lot of these these guys i now go um most weekends up in york show where i'm from um to do some detecting and it's just lovely we kind of sit and have a cup of tea between digging and compare our buttons and buckles and yeah I feel like a really nice friendship has actually started. And do you ever go out alone because because there is the question of safety often you'll be in fields for long lengths of time for example? Yeah I mean my mum was a bit nervous when I first kind of said I'm going to go meet a stranger in a field that I've, you know, just met over Facebook. I can imagine. Yeah, definitely. But, you know, especially because you don't have phone signal as well. So you've got to be prepared for that. A lot of these places are quite remote.

But no, I feel like I've been quite lucky with the friends that I've made. Yeah. In terms of the specifics, you talked about the equipment. What about a licence? I mean, if there was someone listening out there who wants to get into it, how do you practically go about venturing into fields and digging up lots of land? Yeah, so you can sign up for insurance, but the best way is to join a local group. If you go on Facebook or social media, there's absolutely, there's a group for every region. And they have already negotiated the permission from the farmers, which that takes off a lot of the load. And yeah, you should be covered and good to go. And in your opinion from your experience so far what are the best places to go to? Well I love detecting Yorkshire just because that's where I'm from the people are lovely really down to earth and we have a really good time there's also a lot

of civil war significance in the areas I detect in hence hence the musket bowl I just showed. So it's really exciting to be digging there. Yeah. And what are you on the lookout for specifically next? Well, everyone wants to find a hoard of Viking or Roman coins, something, you know, that the British Museum wants to snap up, of course. But for me, I'm actually just happy to be outdoors in the fresh air. You know, even if I find like a button, a buckle, something, you know, only a couple of hundred years old. I mean, here I've got a harmonica which that was harmonica yeah part of a harmonica yeah part of a harmonica I should stress yeah 1800s I did try to play it actually um did you yeah it doesn't quite work I just tried now but but yeah so it's just the small everyday things that give an insight into

what life was like incredible what's lying underground thank you so much Joan Cuttle and for inspiring our conversation Carrie writes um, Jade rather, Jade Cuttle, thank you for joining us. Carrie writes, in enjoying this show, my hobby is making things out of recycled bicycle inner tubes. I make pouches, wallets, glasses cases and bracelets. Thank you for sharing your interest. Do keep your messages coming in and let me hand in or hand back your lovely treasure, Jade. And thank you for joining us here on Women's Hour. Next, we turn to Syria. The interim government there has appointed a new head of women's affairs, Aisha al-Dibs. But what might this mean for the women of the country? al-Dibs has emphasised the crucial role that women play in rebuilding the war-torn country.

She's also stressed the importance of recruiting qualified women in healthcare and education sectors. Joining me now is Dr Reem Turkmani, Director of Syria Conflict Research Programme at the London School of Economics. Dr Turkmani is also on the Women's Advisory Board to the UN Special Envoy to Syria. She joins me now. Thank you for your time. What do we know about Aisha Al-Dibs? Who is she, first of all? Aisha Al-Dibs is a Syrian woman from Damascus. She seems to have a very good reputation, but only in humanitarian work and directing Syrian schools in Turkey. So herself is not a bad person but what Syrian women are outraged about is actually that all their issues and all

what they're calling for like full rights participation and public life in every front and every department should not be boxed in the one small department. They want to be in every department. They want to be able to assume every public position that is out there. Do they feel reassured from your understanding that this is a good first step? Not really. I mean, the de facto authorities currently ruling Syria has a 13 years record of unfair and sometimes violent treatment of women. Women activists in Idlib, where they ruled before, have particularly been targeted,

facing threats, intimidation, especially those who dare to take a political role. One example is Hiba Hajarif. She's a member of the local administrative council in her town. She received many threats and then she was found killed in her own house. So as she has now expanded to rule the rest of Syria, they're attempting to adapt to the new society they're governing, but their rhetoric is not convincing people so last week their spokesperson made really outrageous comments about women talking about psychological and biological limitations to women preventing them from assuming all public roles so as a response really women across the

country and men were mocking him and they were demonstrating on the streets. So HTS in response moved this person to another position and they assigned the role of this lady as head of women's affair. But what I've seen yesterday from more demonstrations, women going down to the streets, calling for equal rights, full public participation in all roles. No one was welcoming the steps. No one was talking about Aisha. But they don't want to be hostile to her. It's not about her. But it's not convincing. I mean, you know, they stand on the shoulder of a very, very deep history

of women, Syrian women being very vocal, present in public life in every front. And they're not going to go back to their homes. Have we heard from Aisha Aljib so far? Yeah, we did hear from her that she's a nice, soft person, but she's still talking about limited issues. She still don't know fully her mandate. It was clear from her comments that she's still finding out herself. And what concerns us really is, again, trivialising what women are calling for in just assigning small departments. And on the same day they appointed her, HGS arrested 10 Syrian women in Aleppo who came from Idlib to Aleppo to demonstrate against HDS because they arrested their men about 10 years ago only because they voiced an opposing opinion

to HDS. So on the same day. And the media is not talking about this. This is why we're not reassured. We can't take what they're saying as a sign of them being more open to women's participation. And as I said, we have a strong history. I mean, I have records of Syrian women demonstrating even during the Ottoman era against the Ottoman

ruler of Damascus in 1870, calling for his downfall. We have women participating in 1920 in Damascus University, leading a mass demonstration, objecting for the downgrading of the university's budget, for example. We have images of all these demos. So it's never been a credit to a particular authority. It's not the Assad rule that allows women to participate in public life. It's the women themselves. And they're not going to be silent about any attempt to suppress their role in public life or downgrade their rights. To the contrary, they want more rights and more participation. I do want to ask you specifically about women who were thrown in prison under the Assad regime,

because Aisha al-Dibs did make reference to that as well, saying that she'd launched some kind of a phone line for them. I'm not exactly sure what she specifically meant. But do we know how many women were impacted by this and what might happen to them now? I don't have exact figure, but we know that we're talking about more than thousands and thousands of women who were impacted. The way they were released, sadly, was very arbitrary. They were not carefully looked after. But some of these women were taken only to add pressure on their husbands. My cousin was one of them.

She was arrested when she was about 25 years old and nine months pregnant, imagine, only to add pressure on her father-in-law, who the government accused of being public of the opposition, having taken part in an attack against the security forces. So they arrested her. She gave birth in prison, imagine, and she had to live with her baby in prison in horrific conditions for 40 days. Then the baby was forcefully taken away from her, put in an orphanage while she spent three more years of her life in prison. And then her parents, her own parents, had to fight to get this baby out of the orphanage. Only a year and a half later, they managed to take this girl to raise her. That's just one example. And there are many more horrific examples of women's treatment under the Assad regime.

So a lot of work to be done on their well-being in this next chapter. I also want to ask you briefly about another controversy that's been going about online. Syria's de facto leader, Ahmed al-Shara, in a video showing him gesturing to a young woman to cover her hair

before he posed for a photo with her last week. I should say that the woman said that she was not bothered by this request. But in an interview with our Middle East editor, Jeremy Bowen, the leader did try to evade questions about women's dress codes in Syria. Do we have any further clarity on this front? No, there is no further clarity. But what we know is that when he was meeting with Western diplomats, like, for example, the British envoy who met him in Damascus last week, she was not veiled. So he didn't dare to impose this rule on Westerners, but he was trying to impose it in Syrian women. I mean, he himself is known to have at least three wives, you know, right now. They've never been seen in public. And in Idlib,

where they ruled, women were not allowed to go out without having their heads covered. Now, I don't think they will manage to impose such rule in Syria on the rest of Syria. There's no way to force Syrian women to, yeah, to be forced to cover themselves. I don't see this happening. Well, we'll wait and see how this all unfolds under Aisha al-Dibs and what she plans. But she has said that the government was committed to engaging Syrian women in social, cultural and political institutions and recruiting qualified women in healthcare and education sectors. And as you stressed there, she has too, that Syrian women historically are known to be highly effective as leaders across all fields.

And today we are in the process of bringing her back to this leading role in building Syria, a new country. Dr Reem Turkmani, thank you for joining us here on Woman's Hour. And now for something completely different. Oliver Twist, originally a novel by Charles Dickens and then a family favourite musical. In the story, the young Oliver is rescued by Nancy. She's often dismissed as a tart with a heart,

but there's really so much more to her than that. In the musical, she gets some of the best songs in the show umpapa it's a fine life and of course as long as he needs me more on that later and she's been played by everyone from sophie o'connell to shani wallace we're here with me to talk through the character of nancy who she was and her modern day significance is professor jenny hartley academic advisor to the Charles Dickens Museum, and Sinead Holmes, who was playing Nancy in the new production of Oliver, currently on In the West End. Welcome to you both.

Hi. Jenny, I'll start with you in the original novel. How did Dickens choose to portray Nancy? Oh, she's a wonderful character, isn't she? She's got so much going for her. She's got life, energy, all the youth that he saw in the young people on the streets, that he knew the streets of London so well himself, both as a child and as an author. He used to walk the streets at night to get inspiration. And she went through a lot of hardship. Of course, yes. She says in the book, when I was half your age, she says to Oliver, so he says he's about 10. So since she was five, she's been on the streets.

And she said that was 12 years ago, so maybe she's just 17, she's young. But she's had that street life, thieving and as a prostitute, as a child prostitute. So, you know, she's seen terrible things. Yes. And watching it through modern eyes, many would say that she's a child who is sexually exploited as well. Oh definitely definitely and Dickens was quite explicit about that in the preface to a later edition he said the girl is a prostitute so it you know it's out there it's quite quite clear and yet she has this wonderful energy he he talks about her as being stout and hearty which I love and she's good company. And we see her through sort of twin vision, really, in the book. When she's introduced, Oliver thought they were very nice girls

and Dickens says, as indeed they were. So you get both the child's vision and the older vision of this is obviously a woman of the streets, good company, but, you know, damaged, obviously. Sinead, what was it like to play her? What did you have to learn to capture her essence? Yeah, well, I mean, first and foremost, it's an honour to play a character as iconic as Nancy is. And to play her, I really, through the text and the work,

I really, really wanted to make sure that the audience came away from the show really feeling that they got the human version of Nancy and the truthful version of Nancy warts and all so with all the heart and all the feeling and all the positivity and zest

that she has for life but really felt her heartbreak in those intimate moments of the show, which are heartbreaking, of course, during As Long As He Needs Me and As Long As Reprise. But yeah, I really, we went back to the text on this and we took it from the page, the incredible Lionel Bart's writing, of course,

and he wrote everything so, so beautifully and so honestly. Yeah, I think that I really wanted to achieve truth with Nancy. Jenny, why do you think Dickens felt such a strong connection with Nancy? Well, he'd been out on the streets himself as a child. His parents were, his father was in prison for debt. And at that time, the whole family went into prison, except for him and his older sister, who was studying at a school of music.

So he was going to work in this horrible factory. He knew exactly he could see these young girls. And so he carried that with him as he started writing. He's only 25 when he writes Oliver Twist, so he's still young. So young, you don't realise. Exactly. And he's writing two novels always at the same time, so it's an amazing energy. But obviously, Nancy really spoke to him. And it was a character who stayed with him all of his life. At the end of his life, he was doing public readings from his works. And the one he saved for his farewell tour was The Death of Nancy.

And he didn't do it before because he said it was so frightening. And in fact, it was really frightening. People used to faint when he does The Death of Nancy. And you can see the prompt copy that he's prepared for his own readings. He would do it from memory, but he had a prompt copy with him to help him. And he's written on it, terror to the end. So he's really got everybody worked up, yeah. Shanae, you are going to sing for us.

Tell us about what you're going to sing and the significance of the song. Yeah, I'm going to sing As Long As He Needs Me, of course, that incredibly famous uh song and i think with as long as you have such first first of all everyone loves the song it's been sung by the most incredible women of our time and people who i love um and have admired from a little girl and And so that's big shoes to fill. But I think that sometimes the music is so beautiful, we almost forget what is being said. And of course, as long as we are talking about Nancy

having a very intimate moment, which you don't get to see, particularly with her character, because, like we say, she is the heart of the show. But you get to see this broken woman who is rationalising with herself. And within domestic violence, this comes after the scene between her and Bill where she is hit in publicly for the first time

and you get to see inside her thought process of her talking herself into staying and I think that it's a very heartbreaking gut-wrenching moment in the show and particularly in this version which is slightly darker I think it's so important particularly in our time um just to just for her to get to display that yeah well I'll let you walk over to the mic and get ready and in that moment I'll turn to Jenny just to expand on that point um because it was an abusive relationship that Nancy and Bill Sykes shared how was that received by audiences in the book? So the glamorization of violence was a big issue at the time and that's what critics quite often did sort of look at and and get on to but it's that vulnerability which I think is so wonderful and that Dickens responded to in real life he he helped those young women off the streets, the real Nancy, as it were,

and gave them, he set up this home for women like them, a refuge, and he helped them start new lives, and they would start new lives abroad. And, you know, in Australia, in Canada, in New Zealand, in South Africa. And it's just a wonderful story that out of this awful, terrible heartbreak, but we can think quite positively about some of those lives that Dickens helped to change. Very briefly, what is the one thing you want audience to take away about Nancy after seeing the show? I want them to understand, particularly as women, how resilient we are, how love can really move mountains. capable of doing anything and that doing the right thing no matter where you come from what walk of life what class what race is always the best choice and I hear you say that with passion

Jenny I've got a message for you from someone who you might know I'm just going to squeeze this in what a lovely surprise to hear Professor Jenny Hartley on woman's hour i'm an old student and i fear i disappointed jenny by going into law but i've never forgotten her enthusiasm and support for which i've always been grateful that is from susannah johnson oh of course does that does that ring about you might want to give her a message back live on air happy christmas that was wonderful message thank you so much. That just made it for me. Well, we're all about connecting people here on Woman's Hour.

So I'm glad we've done that. And it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you both. That is Professor Jenny Hartley and Sinead Holmes. Thank you both for your time here on the show. And that version of Oliver

is out in the West End now. Do you want to go and take a look as I did the other day and we absolutely loved it, my kids and I. So an absolute pleasure having you both in the studio. Do you keep your messages on niche hobbies coming in as well? I should have asked you both. If you've got a niche hobby,

do you want to bring one in very quickly? Only Dickens. Only Dickens. Well, Dickens will do. This writer said, I make bird ornaments out of felt with embroidery inspired by folk art and Nordic folk designs. Thank you for your messages and do keep them coming in.

Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. Hello, this is Danny Robbins. Three years ago, I was told one of the scariest stories we have ever had on Uncanny. The entire room erupts. There are things flying around all over the place. In 1973, a young climber called Phil spent the most terrifying night of his life in an abandoned house in the Scottish Highlands. We're absolutely terrified and we hear this thing going around the building. Now we are going back there with Phil, returning to Louisbelt, 50 years on to confront whatever he experienced there.

There it is, Phil. Yeah, that's it, all right. Poking up over the hill like a grim spectre. How are you feeling? Are you OK? Nervous. Yeah? Yeah. Subscribe to Uncanny on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.