Woman's Hour - Amy Hart, Covid Limbo, Anne-Marie Trevelyan MP

Episode Date: September 15, 2021

Amy Hart, who was on Love Island two years ago was in front of politicians yesterday describing the problems she's had on social media. Appearing in front of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee she explained that she's been trolled by nurses, and she found out that a 13 year old boy had sent her death threats. We tells us how she copes. Professor Devi Sridhar from The University of Edinburgh talks to us about the Government's Plan A, Plan B and Plan C for covid as we go into autumn.We hear from two Woman's Hour listeners about why, at the moment, they've decided not to have children. Some of their reasoning is to do with over-population and global resources. According to data from the Office of National Statistics, 50% of women will not have had a child by the time they reach 30, with 20% not having children at all. Emma speaks to Destiny and Rowan about their reasons for being child-free.As Britain gears up to host COP26, the global climate change summit, we talk to the Energy Minister Anne-Marie Trevelyan MP. We ask her if the UK’s really leading by example with its environmental policies and if we can meets our target of net zero emissions by 2050. How will we get there? Will we really be able to phase out domestic boilers? And will the move towards electric cars and the introduction of new hydrogen energy be enough to make the difference? We also ask her about covid and mask wearing.And what's Dopamine Dressing? Well, it's the idea that wearing bright colours, bold prints or your favourite dress can boost your mood and make you feel happier. Dr Caroyln Mair, a behavioural psychologist specialising in fashion, tells us more.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. To mask or not to mask? To see people indoors or not to? Plan B or Plan A? That now seems to be the question after the Prime Minister announced his winter Covid plans yesterday. We'll be running through what all that means in a moment. But where are you with this? Are you relieved that the government is placing its bets on vaccines for everyone, including 12 year olds now and booster

jabs and life being able to continue broadly as it has been of late? Of course, I'm very mindful. I remember only a few weeks ago I was talking to those who aren't still able to go outside because of their immune systems being suppressed and what's going on with the vaccine for them. Or do you want, to quote the chief medical advisor, Sir Patrick Vallance, go hard and go early with those restrictions? Is there agreement in your family and your friendship groups about what to do and how to act? We'll be joined by a government minister a bit later on in the programme. But I wanted to hear where your head is at and if you're perhaps in a different place

or a similar place to those around you as we go into autumn. Where are you with this? Now it is still largely left at our discretion how to handle living with a global pandemic. You can text me on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Do check your provider for exact costs. On social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour

or email me through our website where you are at the moment with this. Also on today's programme, that government minister is Anne-Marie Trevelyan. She's the Energy Minister. And after a report shows the UK is not on track to cut carbon emissions to the level that we said we would, especially ahead of that global climate change conference coming up in Glasgow in November,

COP26. We'll hear what she has to say. And in light of another new global report showing that most young people are very worried about climate change and four in 10 are so anxious that they are hesitant about having children. I'm going to be talking to two of you, two of our listeners, about why you don't think you want to have children. I began that conversation and asked for your contributions yesterday and many of you have kindly obliged. Please do keep getting in touch. And I'll also be talking to Amy Hart, formerly of the Love Island parish,

fresh from giving evidence to MPs to find out what she had to say to them. But back to MPs and the Prime Minister, to be precise, who announced his plans to tackle the spread of COVID-19 in the autumn and winter months only yesterday. But what do those plans mean? Of course, they include booster jabs for millions, but measures like vaccine passports in certain settings may also be introduced. And if Plan B is brought in, mandatory mask wearing will be back. But a lot of people are reporting feeling in COVID limbo.

So messages are already coming in and I'll come to those very shortly. To help us through this time, Professor and Chair of Global Public Health at Edinburgh University, Devi Sridhar joins me now to discuss this. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Let's start with plan A, as it were. I'm holding up what I believe is quite a good summary of it, but what do you understand it to mean? Yeah, so I mean, I think generally plan A and plan B together are trying to avoid a winter lockdown, what we went through for the past 12 to 18 months. And so it's looking at things like vaccines, how do we

increase uptake? How do we get booster jab to those who are most vulnerable, expand into children, 12 to 15, testing, identify positive cases, get them to isolate, behavioral change, asking people to wear masks indoors, you know, to get outside as much as possible, ventilate, not to go into work if you're symptomatic. And then it turns towards kind of things around NHS capacity internationally. So in all in all, it looks like a sensible plan. But in some ways, I think it's a bit confusing having plan A and plan B, we should have just have one plan. Yes. And that's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of at the moment, because there will be some, as I say, who will be relieved that largely nothing's really changed, perhaps in their life as long as

they are in the position to perhaps receive a booster and they are going to do so there might be that change that moment in the diary but masks are still at people's discretion for instance meeting up with people is still allowed all of those things as we have been during the summer yeah so this is maybe a difference now between eng and Scotland, because in Scotland, masks are still required in shops and public transport and compliance is very high with that. You know, as well, adding to that, there's vaccine certification that's going to be coming into place with the idea that actually letting people know it's coming gives them time to get vaccinated, to get their certification, the QR code or the proof they need, as well as to let businesses know what's ahead of them.

So I think right now, basically what we're seeing in England is kind of a say that this is what's coming. But so people could see it. We're in Scotland. We're already there. Yeah. And I think those differences are really important to point out. I suppose the thing that might be consistent, but you can tell me again if this is different in Scotland, is the clampdown isn't the same as perhaps the threat was before. So if that's being checked that people are wearing masks and if those things are being enforced as it was before. Yeah, so I think that there's two big differences. So the first is that the idea that we'll have a mandatory enforced legal lockdown, we're shutting businesses like we went through last winter, is pretty much off the table unless the NHS looks like it's going to collapse. It's kind of the nuclear option if it looks

pretty, pretty abysmal. The hope is that using other measures, we can stay away from that using vaccines, using testing, using all that we've learned about transmission, also investing in the NHS and in health services. It's an idea that we need to move away from that kind of blunt tool that we had last year to evolve to kind of the new things that we have this year. But I would say like at least in Edinburgh, Rhine-based, in Scotland, compliance is still pretty high with things like mask wearing, with actually, you know, getting tested if you're infectious. So the hope is that, you know, some of the things that we've been doing, people just continue doing because we want to maintain where we are and not go backwards. But I have just received a message saying go hard.

Masks in public should be mandated. So now, of course, talking across England and elsewhere on public transport in schools, shops, theatres, everywhere, and vaccine passports, ASAP. That currently in England is being reserved in Plan B. Do you think that should all be rolled into one? Yes, I think they should just go ahead with that. You know, it's coming. People need simple messaging to say this is what it is. And it's already being done in Scotland. And it seems like, again, some of the polling from YouGov and others shows that that's what people want in general. But you may not hear it from the extreme kind of fringe voices who are shouting against anything at all to be to be put in place. Well, and also it's been noted, and I'll ask the minister about this when she joins,

but it's been noted that many on the conservative side of the benches, of course, the party of government, not wearing masks, for instance, in the chamber where we see them debating these very issues. Yeah, this is a tragedy. And it looks a lot like how it's happened in the States, where if you go outside and you wear a mask, everyone assumes you're a Democrat. And if you don't wear a mask, you're a Republican and a mask's become a political kind of posturing. And it's really sad if we're going that way in Britain, because we've avoided that actually for much of the pandemic. People just wore masks because it was something you do to protect others. There are people who can't get vaccinated because they're immunocompromised or who are feeling a bit

more frail. So you just do something simple. And that's what we have here. We have masks in secondary schools in Scotland. We have masks in, you know, here at the university. You're indoors in shops and public transport. And people just do it because we all want to get through this. We know we're in a pandemic and it's something small. So hopefully England will go that way, too. But there will be people who resist that description that you've you've just put out that I understand the comparison and the fear of that. I know you're not saying necessarily we're at that point because lots of people are just still wearing masks when when they're meant to be or even if they're not mandated to be because they know it's protecting others and that's the whole point of this how we kind of get through this together but there will be others who say well hang on a minute I've had a double vaccination and that's what the government is placing its bets on vaccination is the kind of key first response here and that chart that was

shown yesterday by Chris Whitty showing how powerful it is to have that double vaccination, especially as a young person with what COVID can ultimately do to you and be fatal, is very striking. Yeah, vaccination is amazing. I'll just say that, you know, simply amazing in terms of what it's done in terms of stopping severe illness and death, which is what we wanted. The waves of infection we faced, the high case numbers, including in Scotland, would have been pretty catastrophic had we not had vaccines, which kept a lot of pressure off health services. Still hospitalization is increasing, but not the level we had in previous waves, as well as avoiding deaths. But there are people around us who cannot get vaccinated for health issues, might be particularly

fragile, which means vaccines don't offer 100%, you know, protection, they're very effective, but not 100%. So I think it's just something that we do as to be considerate to each other. And it's a small act of kindness, the way I see it, that it's something we can do to look out for each other. So I think that's kind of the issue around masks. It's not about even protecting yourself anymore, you protect yourself for being vaccinated. It's about looking out for others in our community who might be in a slightly different position. I'm so happy to have got these messages almost at the same time, and they're perfect to share with you as what I can see in terms of that public opinion. I recognise it's

self-selecting in the sense of who actually already texts and gets in touch with radio stations, but it's almost a perfect exposition. We've got a message here from Heli who says, I'm a mature PhD student and I need my pay from teaching to help pay my fees and help try to bridge the gap in the time that I don't earn money. My university is not mandating masks or social distancing and I've had to turn down work because I'm fearful of being

in a high-risk situation of becoming ill because I'm asthmatic. I'm double vaccinated, but people still get it. Another message has come in. John says, personally, I'm sick of it all. We're stopping the whole world. At what point will we pass the tipping point where so many businesses close? Food supply becomes an issue. Yes, we need to protect the NHS, but let's just get back to normal.

If you're worried, wear a mask, but leave the rest of us alone. I'm 61, by the way, and I feel that COVID is a new permanent flu. I know it's not the same, but to stop everything when it does not affect the majority, I just think this is wrong. What would you say in response to both of those? So I will just respond to the second one. I think it's a really important point that everyone wants this to be over. I think the majority of people are sick of this, especially those working in hospitals.

Ask the doctors working on ICU units, you know, GPs. This has been a brutal period, especially for those on the front line. But the problem will be if health services collapse, if he needs to go to hospital because he's having a heart attack, there will be nobody to care for him. If your wife needs breast cancer treatment, there will be no one to give her chemotherapy and to talk her through the options. If your child or your grandchild is wheezing and can't breathe, but pediatric units are filled with cases and they say, we don't have space, your child will be at home suffering without oxygen. That is the stark decision facing governments across the world, not just in Britain, but Germany, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Hong Kong, and then look at the developing world

as well, where we are seeing this happen in real time, people dying outside hospitals because they cannot get in to have care. So I think that is the stark reality. And there's the idea of we are all tired of this more than us. Those who have been involved with this are more burned out, I think, than anything. But at the same time, what is the solution? Because the solution of just letting medical services collapse, it's going to be pretty catastrophic. And you may not feel it if you are, you know, healthy and you're on your own. You say, I don't need anyone, but we all need medical services sometime in our life or someone we love well. And that's what we're all kind of trying to protest.

But Debbie, also, just to say Plan B, which, as you say, most of which is what's happening in Scotland already. But just to talk about England and in light of Boris Johnson's announcements yesterday, if the NHS is swamped, which the Health Secretary said earlier today on the Today programme, will be a key indicator to move to that. He didn't say it was the only thing. Vaccine passports, people proving that they're double-jabbed

to get into places and crowded indoor venues, masks being mandated and potentially working from home to help. Those are the three of the key points. Will that be enough? Well, hopefully it will be alongside vaccines and testing. And that's what I mean, right now we have to see that we're in uncharted territory. And probably Britain right now is leading the world alongside Israel and Canada and France in terms of vaccine uptake. And so all of us are going into winter and saying, is this going to be enough to stop people being hospitalized and keep

pressure off the NHS? And the hope is it will be. Nobody wants another lockdown or to shut businesses and even vaccine certification. I know it's very contentious, but if this is a way to keep businesses open, to keep nightclubs open, to keep events going forward, then it's a middle way where we say we have to use vaccines and testing as a way to try to lift some of the harsher restrictions. And it's a middle path. And hopefully businesses can see it's been taken up in Denmark, France, New York City. This is the way they're trying to kind of get the economy going in the middle of a pandemic. In the winter, final question, would you go to a crowded indoor venue without a vaccine passport being in place personally I would not because I spent you know I think that's for me in my life it's unnecessary but I know jobs do require having nightclubs open and having these events go ahead especially those

who are possibly on zero hour contracts or who need that employment so I I think actually we're lucky, those of us who can say, no, we don't want to do that. But there's also a real employment imperative, which is why I think if there were vaccine certification, I'd be more likely to go in. Because I'd say, okay, at least I know everyone here is double-jabbed. Vaccines dampen transmission, and there's less of a chance of it becoming a super-spreader event.

Devi Sridhar, thank you very much for joining us, Professor and Chair of Global Public Health at Edinburgh University. More messages coming in on that limbo, if some of you feel it like that, or some of you feeling relief, or some of you feeling your anxiety coming up again as we head into the autumn and winter months. We wanted to kind of take the temperature here on Women's Hour about where you are with that. But yesterday, I did speak to Julia Payton-Jones, the former director of the Serpentine Gallery, about becoming a mother at the age of 64. You can listen again to that really interesting insight and interview on BBC Sounds, even if I do

say so, because I hadn't heard some of the points that she'd made quite how she'd made them. And I remember at the time when that came out, a lot of reaction and a lot of you got in touch off the back of it. It is a story, of course, that will reassure some women that it's never too late. But it also feeds into the idea that all women will eventually perhaps succumb to the call of motherhood. We've had a number of you get in touch recently asking us to discuss the active choices women, mostly in their 20s and 30s, make not to have children. There's also a global report out this week which shows most young people are very worried about climate change. Four in 10 being so anxious, they say at the moment,

they're hesitant about having children. Well, we want to hear what's behind those decisions. And in a moment, I'll be talking to a couple of listeners, Rowan and Destiny. But first, I just wanted to give you a flavour of what we've been told across a range of platforms that you've been getting in touch with us. We've got this one in on Instagram. It says, I'm 37 and undecided. The feeling of underlying disappointment from my family is unreal. Anna emailed in to say, there are several factors. Not only is it the single

most environmentally damaging act that you can perpetrate having children as an individual. Well, that's debatable. We had an interesting chat on that. I'll come back to it in just a moment. But the way that nature is being destroyed by humanity and the vast devastation that is coming with climate change is something I wouldn't inflict on anyone. Thank you for talking about this sensitive and important topic which is so overlooked. Polly also an email says I'm so pleased this is being spoken about openly. Last year through the pandemic and approaching the age of 30 I had thought about lots of thoughts about whether I should bring a child into the world when the future seems so uncertain and scary. I slowly began to say my thoughts aloud, though I don't mention my reasoning to friends with children as I don't want to pass on any of my anxieties.

Let's talk now, as I say, to Rowan and Destiny. Destiny, I'll start with you. What do you make of some of those reasons and where are you with this? hi emma good morning hello well i definitely can relate you know to the sort of concerns with nature and how our world and our climate is just unfolding um when i when i think about children destiny I'm terribly sorry to interrupt you, but there's a really bad background noise there at the moment. I'm just going to see if you could sort that out for a moment. If I can, I'll just come back to you while you do sort that out because it's interfering with our ability to hear you.

Rowan, let me start with you as well and come to you with that starting question. How does this relate to you? What are your reasons and where are you at with this? Well, my reasons are, they basically fall into two categories one is my happiness and the other is a child's happiness and at the moment i just don't think that a person born now would come out of their life being happier than they would be unhappy. It feels the world in itself is burning and we're constantly being told about climate change and even on the show about rape convictions,

sexual assault, domestic violence. Just the idea of bringing someone into that, knowing that they, even if none of that happens, will inherently suffer, feels like an incredibly selfish act on my part because my body wants a baby, essentially. Because when you wrote to us, you made it clear you would like to have children,

but you don't feel you can do it in good conscience. Yeah, so I would. I'd love to have kids. I'd love to have a big family. And, you know, that image that we're given. But actually the reality of it, I think I would just constantly be anxious about their welfare, about the world.

I think my happiness would really suffer. I've not, I'm yet to meet a woman who hadn't struggled through motherhood. But that, sorry, that's for a whole other range of reasons, not necessarily those. I mean, you can have the existential element and I'm not downplaying that that's why I want to hear from you but as well documented on this programme there's a whole other range of reasons

why you may struggle with motherhood Yeah, of course but for me personally I'm not sure I want to put myself through that or risk that for myself And how old are you at the moment? I'm 29 And are you in a relationship relationship have you expressed this to those around you yeah um so I'm not in a relationship at the moment I was last year I was in a very long-term relationship last year and we were actually trying for a baby at that point uh and then one thing led

to another and we broke up very amicably uh and I couldn't be more grateful and I'm sure he feels the same way that I didn't get pregnant that we didn't suddenly have this person in a in either a relationship that wasn't working or suddenly I was a single mum and they weren't in their child's life as often just the thought of that how easy life can change really really really brought home to me, for me, how hard being a mother would be, and how unfair it would be on that child to, because I wanted a child, now they have to live, they have to go through life and everything it throws at you. You don't seem to be alone in this, especially with that global report that I just mentioned. Let's go back to Destiny, hear where she is with this. Destiny, hopefully I can hear you. Go on with what you were saying. Hiya, sorry about that. Yeah, I was just saying I can

totally relate. The anxiety is rising, pressures are also rising. I don't think I've ever, you know, experienced a time where someone isn't asked, well, when are they having children? When are they getting married? And, you know, I got married in the pandemic last year and it was only then that I actually saw the impact of kind of having your own family and raising your own family and also the mental health side of it as well because, like Rowan said, it is a very big challenge and it is hard and I speak to mothers around me I do have friends my age who are mothers. You're how old? I'm 27. Okay sorry so carry on just it's good for us to you know with the the average of age of women in

this children women having children in this country now being around 30 or so, it's interesting to put you in that. Yeah, well, I think that's really interesting because, you know, getting married for me was something that I was really excited about. And, you know, it's a big thing in my culture. But the only thing is when we do get married, there is that expectation, whether it's unknown, whether it's subconscious or, you know, just said outright to have children and to start a family with, you know, one'm learning more about myself, about my husband and just seeing how I fit into this world, what I can bring to this world. Like Rowan, it is something that I would want my child to be able to, you know, experience in the fullness of it rather than kind of just trying to make ends meet or that kind of thing. And also, you know, from a climate and environmental perspective, it is very interesting that, you know, you said that it's the single most damaging thing that we could do. I definitely think there are anxieties around it,

but what I do think about the anxieties is that, you know, if I feel called to have a child, you know, in the future, in my 30s, late 30s, whatever, I would never feel so afraid, because I don't know, I just trust and I do have a hope that what's meant to be will be and living a sustainable life is important to me now. And that's why when I would raise my children I would also try to raise them in the most sustainable way as well and I think it's exciting because you know there's many um there's many mothers out there who are doing their best uh to be sustainable mothers if you like and kind of just paving the way does your does your husband want children? Yeah so he does and we speak about this often you

know he's the youngest of his family and I'm the oldest of me and my sister and it would be lovely to kind of raise children but I think we're both at the stage now where you know we're really excited about our careers and kind of just being married. And again, I didn't think I could be at a place now where I'm so excited of, you know, starting my own business and just coming to myself. So I think waiting until whenever is fine for us both. Okay, so what you've both got in common, and actually isn't the same as some of the other messages is that you are open to it. And it almost sounds like you need to get to a different point.

I don't want to paraphrase either of you. And I'll come back to you, Rowan, in just a moment. You know, you want to get to a different point or be able to feel OK about it if something else either changes in you or around you. Just to come back to something you said there, Destiny, there's a message. I didn't say I was quoting Anna on email who said it's the single most environmentally damaging act you can perpetrate as an individual. What I questioned there, and it was in light of a conversation, I don't know if you heard it last week on the programme, I had Professor Tim Dyson on to talk about the effects of population on the planet. Eight billion people, obviously an issue, but he said, seeing as we are where we are, if women and men want a baby or two, then it won't make much difference. So he was putting it in the context

of what it will actually do. And if you like the order, and we'll come to this with the minister, the Minister for Energy, of what needs to change before, which will make major change, which is why I was quibbling that point. Rowan, what do you make of that, though? Because that's what someone who's an expert in population

had to say. Does that convince you in any way? It's great that one or two children won't affect the environment, but I'm not so concerned about that. It's more that particular child's experience in life. So I just, I don't believe that they would be particularly happy with the world around them constantly feeling like everything is going wrong, whether it is or not, you know, whether that's just how we're feeling at the moment. But it just feels there's constant anxiety around climate change. There's constant anxiety around social media how would you navigate that I'd like that all of that anxiety is on me at the moment and I don't want to put that onto a person who hasn't I know this sounds strange but hasn't expressly consented to being alive it's all my selfish need to bring them

into the world and it just doesn't seem particularly fair on them. There's a message here from Sarah who says, a few years ago, I heard listeners on the radio say they were choosing not to have children for reasons like climate change and those concerns. I distinctly remember rolling my eyes and scoffing at the thought that that could even be a consideration. And there will be some people, of course,

doing that at the moment. There'll be others really thinking, I've had these thoughts, maybe I haven't felt I could share them a few years later she says as my friends started to have children I feel no desire to have them myself and to do it that myself I watch the news I find the climate change stories so depressing why would I choose to bring a child into the world where there is instability and no plan to start managing it that will make a difference I would now say that that is my core reason for not having children that's quite a change isn't it yeah and I have had a similar journey I wouldn't say that I've rolled my eyes at it it's always been a concern but now now that I'm in my late 20s and it's a real option for me I'm in a like

I could bring a child into the world now and it would be financially fine my life would be all right but I feel like climate change is the big the big overarching thing in all of our lives and I've got a million other reasons not to have children but that's of course a significant one and as I've got older as I've been able to actively think about it and look at the different arguments, my conclusion is that it's just unkind to everyone involved to have children. Do you think people who have had them, including your own parents, are selfish then? No, I can understand it. I really, of course I can. Like it's... And has your life, you know,

I don't want to pry per se but because you said the person who would be brought into the world who hadn't consent uh you don't you don't want to put them in that situation has your life been all that terrible to date some would ask in the sense of you've probably had some pretty good experiences and there's a message here saying when in history has it been a good time to bring a child into the world i mean i would agree with that and you know i'm lucky enough to be one of the women who get to choose. My life's been good. My life, I've had, in the grand scheme of things, a happy, good life.

But it's been hard. As with everyone, life is hard. And the idea of having to go back through school, having to navigate how to be a human, essentially, how to behave in society. And, you know, you learn all of that through error oh and I would hate to go through that again so why would I put someone brand new did you have a bad exam exam situation as well that's adding to this I mean it's not how bad is it I mean it's pretty good at times and let me bring destiny on that point I mean you know people have had a you know a lot of positive experiences through those learning through errors and where they've got to

but you're also right life is is a struggle and that struggle is relative depending on your circumstances destiny do you think you're going to come out uh in a place i mean rowan at the moment certainly sounds like she's she's definitely not there yeah where do you think you're going to come out on this I definitely feel like I'm more open to the the idea of having children um it's more of a case or it's less of a case of fear for me um I definitely can agree with the anxieties and navigating going through school when I think about having children I don't just think how cute it is on Instagram to you know have have mummy and daughter pictures or something like that it's really I'm thinking more forward about schooling about you know good access to clean air and green spaces and quality of food. And all that plays a part.

And so I think that's why it would be much, much later on where me and my husband have come to an agreement that actually we can provide what's in our control, these certain aspects to be able to raise a child. We've had so many messages. Thank you so much, Rowan coming on uh and and feeling like you could say what is it weird to share it rowan for you uh not really i'm really like i have chats with my friends about it even uh my friends who are parents now i mean they sort of i mean they love

their children of course but it's hard it's hard work and they have those anxieties yeah and uh they're quite happy that i will not bring that upon myself yes although you may so do keep us in the loop you may I'll tweet in yeah you get back in touch see we listen Destiny I thank you to you for coming on as well and then do stay in touch with us I hope talking about it was was an interesting experience for you thank you yeah it definitely was I definitely have not had this conversation with my peer group as much probably as Rowan. But I think it's something that we do need to talk about. I am, you know, 27, younger than, you know, 30 or mid-30s. But I think it's great to actually hear and the conversation yesterday that you had that women much older are having children and

are able to make that decision I think it's just important that we are able to make the choice and make it not about fear well I love talking to our listeners to those who actually turn on and engage and thank you very much to you destiny as well for for coming on and many more messages on this I mean one from from Carol who's 75 saying not having children is the choice I made when young I was concerned with overpopulation and threats to the natural environment. The difficulty with the decision is having to continually remake it throughout one's fertile life. My life has had its share of tragedies and setbacks yes I feel happy and lucky. Take heart young women have confidence in your decisions.

Life can be very sweet whether or not you have children but I want another one here who did make the decision for a range of reasons but she says I respect anyone's decision not to have children but I'm now finding and now enjoying finding other ways to express my maternal side but I do wish I'd had a little more awareness of the weight of the decision I was making almost 20 years ago anyway I just felt the need to share this thank you for the interesting and engaging topics that you're covering. Well, to another report out this week, which shows Britain, and this is linked, of course, to our previous discussion,

Britain is lagging way behind its schedule for cutting carbon emissions in the run-up to November's Global Climate Summit, which, of course, we're hosting in Glasgow, COP26. You've already heard this morning from just then from women who don't want children and because they're so worried about the environment about a different report also from around the world showing that it is an issue with younger people.

And you've been getting in touch about returning to COVID limbo. Who better than to talk to a minister, especially the Minister for Energy, Clean Growth and Climate Change, Anne-Marie Trevelyan. Good morning. Good morning. How are you? Well, we've got a lot to talk about here based on what we've already had on the programme. And I'll get to it if I can, because on that report out this week from the think tank, the Green Alliance, why are we missing our targets so badly?

So we're not missing our targets. We are moving forwards. We are one of the most forward leading countries in the developed world in both the targets we're setting and indeed in the role that I'm doing in. Literally, my challenge as the energy minister is to decarbonise all our energy supply. And we are, I describe it like a Rubik's Cube. Every side is a different part of the equation and we have to move them all at once. So it is the most massive challenge, engineering challenge, technical challenge, innovation challenge. And the UK government has been absolutely world leading in pushing forwards on that. So just, you know, this year, we've published probably the big chunky bit, which was makes sense, our industrial decarbonisation strategy, which is working with, you know, the oil and gas industry, the systems, if you like, that put the power into our plugs and the fuel into our cars,

to work about how those sectors are decarbonising. Looking at transport and how we get new vehicles, clean vehicles through the transport decarbonisation strategy. We just published a few weeks ago the hydrogen strategy, which is looking at, if you like, a new generation and technologies that aren't here and available yet. But I always say this is a marathon, not a sprint. And we're absolutely world leading and some of our companies are doing it. I was just going to say, we can still be world leading. And according to the Green Alliance, our current plans will deliver less than a quarter of the cuts needed to meet the UK's 2030 climate goal. Little progress was noted in areas such as farming,

a 7% improvement, power, 12%, and waste, 15%. You can still be world-leading and not actually on track to meet your target. So that's where we've got to so far, but there is much more to do. I don't think anyone suggests this isn't challenging, but the whole of government, and it's really interesting, you know, because I would say, you know, governments aren't always brilliant at working together. They kind of work in silos. This is literally driving across the whole of Whitehall and drilling right down.

But of course, delivering net zero for the UK isn't only about the government frameworks and what we set out. We're all part of this. So the way you and I, you know, will make choices over the next 10 years will have an impact. Government needs to get it right. And that's what we're pushing really hard to do in the framework so that it's easy for you and I as citizens to make the choices to help us move forwards. I was I was saddened, actually, in some ways, though, you know, I think, you know, young women are very wise that the sense of anxiety in young women, the most important people to help us, you know, to work critical to the next generation and passing on the right messages and how we live differently in a net zero world is young women. And what we're doing to drive net zero is so that we will be in a different type of world where we actually consider the energies that we use are clean, but also a sustainable way of living, which we haven't done for many years. And that's the big challenge that we're drawing all together at once. Do you blame them when this government is allowing a public consultation on a new coal mine in Cumbria?

So I understand their anxiety. And I think one of the challenges I feel as a woman who's now got two adult children. And, you know, it was an amazing, sometimes exhausting, but really exciting journey. And I, you know, it's the it's the best thing I will ever have done is to have my two kids really proud of them. And, you know, it's the hardest thing I've done. And the thing I'm most proud of always will be. But actually, the journey we're on as a as a country to meet our net zero challenge which is you know one percent of the world's emissions but you know for us it's still a big chunky number and we need to bring it right down is that we have to do this in a way that ensures security of supply and that that is the key especially as the energy minister we have to make sure i will not allow our energy systems

to fall over because that has impact which affects women and indeed everyone else more than anything else. Are you supporting the new coal mine in Cumbria? Well, it's being it's being looked at by MHELG on the basis of the of the planning frameworks and clear guidance. But it is a, you know, the system will process. But we've been very clear. What's your view? Well, so my view is that as we set 10 years ago, a goal to no longer have coal to use for unabated power generation, and actually we've beaten our own targets and our last coal mines that produce power will close by 2024, which is fantastic. What's really interesting and talking to the wider COP and the global piece is that we've discovered just as the UK in setting ourselves that target which I can remember

you know being a northeast MP where you know the coal mines are still very much a hot topic if you like it seemed almost impossible that we would have a third of our power stations 10 years ago powered by coal and in 10 years that would have changed but in setting that target in government setting that target investment came in businesses changed the power generators said well we'll do this differently we'll either close down or we'll move to biomass we'll make structured changes that bring us into a cleaner space and i think that's this is the challenge it is a journey so the cumbrane coal mine question will be looked at that's coal that's used steel yes but actually if we can crack uh from an innovation perspective to be able to produce

that sort of high quality steel without coking coal at all, that's the prize. Of course it is. And part of the industrial decarbonisation strategy, which comes out of base. So you do support it? You do support it? The key is that until the solution for steel without coking coal is found, we will still use coking coal, whether it comes from a Cumbrian mine or whether we import it from somewhere else. I think it's really important as we get closer to COP26 to understand if the energy minister supports the opening of a new coal mine, which would be, just to clarify to our listeners, the UK's first new deep coal mine in 30 years. Do you support that, Minister? So, no, what I want to see is solutions so that the steel industry doesn't need to use coke and coal. Yes, but you're not going to get that in three and a half weeks, which is when the consultation closes.

So could I get your view now? So my view is that, you know, I sit as a government minister and we have existing frameworks, which are not within my power to determine. And Robert Jenrick, who is the Secretary of State, who holds that, will make the decision on the basis of the existing. I wasn't asking for the method by which the decision will be made. I was asking, as now a leading voice in this space, do you think we should be doing that? What I think we should be doing is finding the solution so that we don't have our steel industry, which is critically important strategic industry, does not need coking coal.

And that is the answer with respect. That is the answer to a different question. Well, it's the same outcome, which is if this mine were opened and that coal was used, most of that coal for the amount that our steel industry needs would be exported into industry. My solution and the one we're driving at from BASE is to find... That doesn't make it any better. No, exactly. That's a solution.

That doesn't make it any better. Exactly. And my point, Emma, the focus for me and what I can deliver as my part of government is to find solutions for the steel industry to not need coking coal. That is the mission that we have to crack because we should be looking globally at this because that's the point. This is a global challenge. You've just... And just and i said that sorry but you've just said setting targets forces change you've just you've just boasted about that and government working

together but well yes it was your point but then but then you say we'll keep coal until there's an alternative why not force change in the steel industry too well they are that's my point they are working incredibly hard to find by By opening a new coal mine? Well, no, that's just a supply side issue. The steel industry needs to continue. It's strategically important to us at the moment. So some parts that I could take you down a deep rabbit hole if you want to on the subject of steel. No, no, because it's not about... You keep answering it in the frame of steel. I get that. But you are going to be coming together in a matter of weeks of people from around the world looking to us, looking to you and your colleagues. And are you honestly going to sit there? You haven't been able to get your environment bill through potentially

before this happens, even though the Conservatives have been in power for more than a decade. We've had a lot of Sharma, the cabinet minister, going around the world trying to get all these agreements, which are very important. You haven't been able to get that through. And we might be about to open a new coal mine. Can you understand how bad that looks to people? So I absolutely hear what you're saying. The key point, that isn't coal that is used for powering, for a power station that creates electricity. And that, which is the challenge that we are all setting ourselves as a world community is to come away from coal to for unabated power generation we will stop having power coal power

fire stations by 2024 but you've also had a real conversation is to use in a specific industry and the determination will be made by uh robert generic under a set of proposal of details that i'm uh not sized on. But the key point is about unabated coal power to generate electricity. We are stopping by 2024 without question. And we'll land our target before we thought we would. But we might have just opened a new coal mine,

which won't be offset, by the way. It's not for electricity generations. So there is a difference. And I appreciate that that isn't clear, but it's a very important difference. The challenge for the world in coming away from using coal to make electricity is the big challenge because unabated coal power generation is where the CO2 emissions are. Well, just to say here, it's only just been revealed this, but the organisation with that mine,

putting forward that mine, was hoping that the carbon offsetting organisation would give it green credibility. That organisation has now said it is against a new coal mine and it cannot be offset in that sense of it's an activity

that must be avoided in the context of the climate emergency. People have also pointed to hypocrisy around the Cambo oil field plan in Scotland, the investment of 16 billion in New North Sea oil and gas exploration. So it's not just those areas. I wanted to talk about the mine though, because we talked about it with your colleague on this programme before. I just wanted to ask you about women around the table, if I can, because we're talking on Women's Hour. There are reports stating that the UK's COP26 leadership is all male.

That's politicians and civil servants. Is that true or what percentage is female? No, absolutely, that isn't true. I couldn't give you the exact figure, but uh so alloc is you know one part i am one other key part we're one of each side um and the team who you know the key team if you like in the cop 26 unit as we call it who are you know both driving uh the the logistics of the conference which is a huge huge event the largest conference that the uk government's ever held uh had some incredible women in there

as well as some incredible men. We have almost the best of the best who've come from FCDO, who've come from BASE and indeed some who we've brought in from outside to make sure that we can draw together the most amazing talent and deliver the most ambitious COP that we can. All those acronyms, things like,

I should say, the Foreign Office and the Business Unit, just to put people into parliamentary speak, if I may. No, no, it's fine. I just like to keep everyone together. So what percentage is it, roughly? Do you know that it's female? I don't know exactly, but I would think it's probably about 50-50. It is about 50. OK. Certainly, you know, I don't feel that I'm ever, I'm quite often looking at a screen of only women talking to me when we're doing planning. So certainly in my space, I certainly wouldn't think it's a particularly male

environment your private secretary is a woman uh alox chief of staff is a woman uh you know do you think this should even be happening cop 26 in person in Glasgow yes you don't think it's going to be a super spreader event especially especially with the Conservatives not mandating mask wearing in England? Obviously it's in Glasgow. There's a hugely complex set of requirements for health and those coming in from, you know, well, every country are under a number of quarantine restrictions, vaccination asks and so on.

And it's been incredibly well managed. A lot of that is being managed by the UN itself because, of course, this asks and so on. And it's been incredibly well managed. A lot of that is being managed by the UN itself, because of course this is a UN conference. We host it, but this is a UN conference. So they are doing a great deal of vaccination for those coming who haven't had a vaccination for some reason. And of course we have our normal quarantine rules. The leaders who come in the first two days

will have some special criteria. Okay, so very high level criteria there for this particular. Are you wearing a mask in the Commons? quarantine rules the leaders will have some special special criteria okay so it's a very high level criteria there for this particular are you wearing a mask in the commons uh no not most of the time i have done in some meetings when you know people ask i'm very relaxed about it i'm double vaccinated you know i'm not going around hugging anybody i think i've slightly got out of the habit which is a bit weird um but no, I'm not, but I will always if somebody does. I am on public transport. Should you really have to be asked as a minister?

Shouldn't you be setting an example? Well, we are not at the moment in an environment where, you know, the medical science gestures are, but I think I'm very comfortable with wearing one if somebody is more comfortable with that. But I'm also happy, you know, exercising my own right not to. And, you know... Sometimes you jam-packed round tables together. I've seen the images.

And yesterday it was quite striking with the health secretary on one side of the Commons with ministers not wearing, or MPs, I should say, not wearing masks. And some of our listeners have been getting in touch saying we'd like our MPs to set an example. Well, I think, you know, the moment that the framework and the scientists view is that that isn't necessary. And of course, our incredible vaccination programme is protecting all those vaccinated. You know, the frustrating thing and

talking to my local hospital, which I, you know, catch up with them on a regular basis, those who are still coming in with COVID and the, you know, the problems from it are almost entirely unvaccinated. So I continue to encourage people to get the vaccination because it really does mean that COVID can still make you unwell, but it's very, very unlikely to make you critically unwell if you've been vaccinated. Well, you're very relaxed about it. I think people will remember that and those who feel the same will agree and those who don't, I'm sure we'll also be hearing from.

Thank you for your time today. And I look forward to talking to you again as we get closer or around COP26. A lot to be thinking about and getting on with. Anne-Marie Trevelyan, Energy, Clean Growth and Climate Change Minister. Thank you. Now, let's go to Amy Hart, who was just in front of some of Anne-Marie's colleagues. She became a celebrity on Love Island in 2019, a TV personality, an influencer with more than a million followers now on social media.

And yesterday she appeared before the Digital Culture, Media and Sports Select Committee of MPs to tell them about what it's been like online since leaving the show. And it's quite an interesting picture you painted there, Amy, because you painted an image of some of the people who send you some of the most terrible abuse as being married, with children, working in jobs like nursing and that you even received a death threat from a child, from a 13-year-old, Amy.

Yeah, this is the thing. You think that trolling all comes from sort of burner accounts, from sad people in the back bedroom of their house, sort of right under the radar. But it's really weird when you... There's one lady, the ones that I read out in the panel, I looked her up on Facebook. She's got a child, like a six-year-old child.

She's got friends. She's got a job. And you think, how does that match up I don't really understand I'll never understand the um the science of trolling because I've had opinions about different people in the media before about things they've done things they haven't done and I've never ever ever thought to tell them about it because it's my opinion and they don't need to know um so I'll never. But yeah, I just wonder, like, do these people go to dinner parties and tell people how they send us messages? Are they proud of it? I don't understand. Was that your driver for going in or are you actually seeking some specific change?

There was a number of reasons. Number one is I'm quite grubby, so I have a voice to use for people that don't have a voice to use. So sort of doing it for other people as well. But also, I think there's a lot of stigma around the term of influencer. People think it's not a real job. I said yesterday, if your child said you want to work in advertising, you'd think, oh, brilliant, that's amazing. An influencer, you'd say get a real job. It's a form of advertising that can also be used to like you know promote different charities and promote different causes that are close to your heart um and also content creators are some of the most tech savvy creative imaginative people that i've

ever met you know i have a friend who during lockdown created a business making reels and tiktoks the stuff she makes for me makes my content a million times better. And that all comes from her brain. And I don't understand how she does it. So just to try and like sort of get people realising what the job actually entails. Also to talk about trolling and also to talk about support from the social networks themselves.

But your atmosphere within which you have to do your work includes death threats. And how have you, not all the time, but also just abuse, But your atmosphere within which you have to do your work includes death threats. And how have you, not all the time, but also just abuse, that is the forum upon which you do this line of work. And it is hugely creative. You know, there are so many things there. There are also concerns around, you know, the controls that there are on influencers and what they advertise out there.

And we can have a separate chat. Perhaps you'll come back on about that because I know you you also told the committee, you've been offered lots of money to promote things like diet products, but you've declined because you feel protective towards young girls. But how have you coped with that? How have you learned to cope with the way that some people respond to you? Sadly, you do get desensitized to it. And it is a day to day different situation. So if you're having a really good day to it and it is a day-to-day different uh situation so if you're having a really good day and you read it you'll sort of lock it off like i've had someone keep saying about me and my boyfriend and how he's only with me for the money etc and if we're together

having a really nice day we read it we laugh about it if you're having a really bad day and then you read lots of personal messages about how awful you are how people hate you and how ugly you are that can really affect you. And, you know, start this miracle morning and starting the day well with a gratitude list, et cetera. If you start the day with reading how much people hate you, that can offset your day. So you do become desensitized to it.

And I've been talking a lot to, Married at First Sight is obviously on TV at the moment. And a couple of the girls have reached out to me to ask for advice about how to deal with the trolling they're receiving. And it's really hard to answer because I can't say to them, you know, or have said to them actually, you do get used to it and you shouldn't have to get used to it, but it does get easier. And at the moment, it's very new to you,

but it will just become part of your job and you have to try and deal with it. But one message could make all the difference to someone doing something very drastic. So I do think there needs to be more ramifications for people that do abuse online. And unfortunately, the reason the social media networks won't ban these people is because then that's another user they've lost. Well, there's a report out today, a leak from Facebook alleging that they know, because Facebook own Instagram, that Instagram makes body image issues worse for teenage girls. I mean, what about the view that perhaps we're going to get to the point where influencers like you need to either be on a different platform or just have your own site again because it's become so toxic.

It has. I think everyone needs to be a responsible influencer. We all make mistakes. I post things sometimes and I get a couple of messages saying, you should have put a trigger warning on that. You know, do you understand? And I go, oh no, I didn't understand. I'm really sorry.

And then I'll go and do an apology. And it's learning for next time. But I think responsible influencing, I've said before, I did like a little meet and greet when I came out of Love Island and it was all teenage girls whose mums had brought them to London for the day. They'd taken the day off work, paid for the train into London to support their kids, to support me. So I feel I owe it to the mums to be a good person

as they are allowing their kids to support me in everything that I do. Amy Hart, thank you very much for talking to us. There'll be a lot of people, you know, trying to cope with this. But I'm also always aware when we have these conversations, not least because you also raised this, and I was talking to another influencer, Em Sheldon, recently about this, that it's not just this idea of, you know, of a man online sending all this abuse, it's women as well. And that whenever we have these conversations, some of our listeners may have done this and may be doing this. So they may hear this and perhaps think differently

when they hear about that reality of receiving that sort of message. Amy Hart, thank you very much. Thank you. Just a little dopamine hit for you to end the programme here. We've considered the state of the planet and the latest COVID response,

all quite hard stuff at times. Is there any truth that you can dress yourself happy? Apparently so. We've considered the state of the planet and the latest COVID response, all quite hard stuff at times. Is there any truth that you can dress yourself happy? Apparently so. Dr. Carolyn Mair, a behavioural psychologist specialising in fashion, tell us how dopamine can come through our clothes then. Is this the case? Well, that's a very interesting question. We think about dopamine as the pleasure neurotransmitter, but actually, it's a reward neurotransmitter. It's the neurotransmitter that motivates us to seek

pleasure. And so it motivates us to seek a reward. So either pleasure or a reduction of pain. So in fact, yes, we can get pleasure from our clothing, but it's the motivation, so the desire, the thinking about it, rather than the actual getting of it that gives us the pleasure. So it's the planning, it's what you're aiming to do. You're thinking, I want to be happy by doing this, and then you put on something that makes you feel like that. Exactly.

And dopamine is also released when we expect something pleasurable to happen. So it's involved in the desire rather than the pleasure per se. So if we expect an item of clothing to be pleasurable, to give us pleasure, to give us some kind of mood boost, then it's very likely that it will because we've triggered the dopamine around that excitement, if you like, that reward. Can you do that? Can you do that with something you've worn lots and lots of times, do you think? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, especially things that you've worn lots and lots of times. It's about belief. And I know this sounds like some kind of magic, but it isn't. When we think about the power of belief,

we think about the placebo effect. And we know from evidence how powerful placebos are, that when people are given a kind of a drug that is either a medical drug or a placebo with no medical ingredients to it, the people, the patients often feel better just having taken the placebo. The reason I was going to say, the reason I asked that again with one eye on what we've been talking about is often, you know, people feel that they can only get that rush from

a new piece of clothing. And obviously, you know, that fast fashion thing is not something that people think we should be encouraging anymore. And that's why I wanted to ask that. But how much does colour play a part? Because apparently the trend at the moment is bold pink in the shops. Does that play a big part? Well, again, this is about the power of belief. It's how much do you believe that wearing bold pink is going to give you the positive outcomes that you're hoping for. And the reason that we're going for pink now, or some people are going for pink now, is one, because it's being pushed out at us with this idea that wearing pink is going to make us happy. And the more we're told something, the more likely we are to believe it. And this follows. We build up our beliefs through our experiences, through our socialisations,

and these become very powerful in our reality. They shape our behaviour. And so if we believe that pink, it used to be yellow, that used to be the dopamine dressing colour, now suddenly it's pink, it's about the sociocultural associations with the colour. And this isn't universal. So, Carolyn, just very short of time, in the morning,

do you get up and you think, I'm going to feel great in this? Do you do that every day? Not every day, but when I consciously want to think about the outcome I want to happen, I will choose clothing that is more likely to give me that outcome through my own confidence in achieving that outcome than just not having that outcome happen. So yeah, not every day, certainly. Right. Well, I'm going to try and channel that a bit more. I mean, I'll get ready in the dark before doing this programme, but I'll put it in my mind and try and reach for that dopamine rush. Dr. Carolyn Mair, thank you to you.

Thank you to all of you for your messages today and your company. I'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, this is Jane Garvey. I'm with my broadcasting friend, Fi Glover. Come in, Fi.

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