Woman's Hour - Andi and Miquita Oliver, Jacqueline Springer, Emma Rawicz, Afghanistan's most successful female footballer - Dr Nadia Nadim

Episode Date: August 11, 2023

Mother and daughter duo, Andi and Miquita Oliver, have started a new podcast, Stirring it Up, where they ask guests to join them at their kitchen table. They join Hayley Hassall to talk on how this format harks back to their roots, their passion for sharing food and stories, the challenges they’ve faced as women at different life stages in broadcast, and growing up together in London’s Ladbroke Grove. It's been two years since the Taliban retook power in Afghanistan and during that time women and girls have found many curtailments on their liberty. Dr Nadia Nadim is Afghanistan's most successful and most influential female footballer. She fled to Denmark following the death of her father and has gone on to play for the Danish national team over 100 times. Dr Nadim joins Hayley to discuss her career and her hope for women and girls back home in Afghanistan. Last week we spoke to the children’s charity, the NSPCC, who talked about how the school summer holidays can be a particularly difficult time for some children. And Hayley talks to Ruth, who has worked on the helpline for over a decade, and Brad, who made that call. Emma Rawicz is an award-winning young saxophonist and composer, already making waves on the UK music scene, and described as "an astonishing new talent" by Jamie Cullum. Emma is a recipient of the 2021 Drake Yolanda Award, winner of Best Newcomer at the 2022 Parliamentary Jazz Awards, as well as being a finalist in the BBC Young Jazz Musician competition.  She joins Hayley to chat and perform live in the studio. Women and Hip Hop with music journalist Jacqueline Springer and the latest on the devastating Maui Fires with Chair of the Island Council Alice Lee.Presenter: Hayley Hassall Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Michael Millham00:00 Opener 02:06 Maui Wildfire 07:16 Andi and Miquita Oliver 17:02 Afghanistan 32:50 Reporting Child Abuse 40:14 Women and Hip Hop 47:53 Emma Radwicz

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Hayley Hassell and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme with me, Hayley Hassell. We have got a guest list to salivate over today from Andy and Makita Oliver, literally cooking in our ears as they come and talk to me about their Stirring It Up podcast, where they cook amazing food and sit down around the kitchen table with their guests and talk about, well, basically everything, the world and their dog and everything in between. So they'll be here to tell me all about it. Also, the award-winning composer and saxophonist Emma Ravitch is coming in

to not only play the songs from her most recent album, Chroma, but she's here to tell me about her beginnings and her achievements in the world's in and out of music. And did you know that today marks 50 years since the birth of hip-hop? It all began at a party in the Bronx when DJ Kool Herc mixed some samples of the breakdown of songs on the turntables. But like many anniversaries, it's not a clean-cut dawning, and it wasn't until 1982 that hip-hop became mainstream. Well I'll be joined by music journalist Jacqueline Springer to tell us all about the history of hip-hop plus the massive impact women had to play in it. So we thought we'd like to expand our conversation this morning on hip-hop and get you involved. We love to hear

from you on Woman's Hour. And so is there a hip hop track or artist. That has massively influenced your life. Do you remember a time when you were. Struck by a hip hop beat for the first time. Or do you remember the time. You saw your favourite artist. Maybe with a best friend or a loved one.

Well you can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website too. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider, so you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. Terms and conditions can be found on our website. But first this morning, let's look at the main story in our headlines today.

Because the number of people killed in the Hawaii wildfires has risen to 55 and police say as many as 1,000 may be missing on the island of Maui. Governor Josh Green says the fires are the largest natural disaster in Hawaii state history, and 80% of the historic seaside town Lahaina is gone. Well, I'm joined now by Alice Lee, who's chair of the Maui County Council. Alice, thank you so much for coming on the programme today. I know it's very late there, but we really appreciate it. Can you just give us the latest? What's the latest news?

What are you seeing at the moment? Thank you. Thank you just give us the latest? What's the latest news? What are you seeing at the moment? Thank you. Thank you for having me. And before I begin, could you tell me what time is it over there? It is 10 o'clock in the morning here. And I know it's very late at night over there. So it's very strange. But you've had a very difficult day, I understand. What's the latest at the moment? Well, I'd say good news in that the winds have died down. And as a result, we've been able to control the fires. I'd say it's about maybe 90, 95 percent extinguished. So hopefully we're out of the danger zone. But yes, indeed, unfortunately, the death toll has risen to 55. We have hundreds and hundreds of stores that have been destroyed

as a result of the fire, particularly in Lahaina, which is on the west side of Maui Island. There were fires in three locations, but West Maui, of course, received the worst of it all. I'm not sure that we have a thousand people missing, but at this point in time, well, it's late now, but in the early morning, we will be combing the various rubble areas and looking for anyone who may still be in the rubble, trapped perhaps in houses and buildings, looking for pets. We're very concerned. All of our first responders, firefighters, everybody that works for the county, it's all hands on deck. So everybody's participating, helping to find anyone who may be missing. And tomorrow will be a very telling day because we will be able for the first time not to be

interfered with with the fire we can go in to be an imminent danger but to be able to see what is your latest well you paint a devastating picture there alice um we really feel for everybody over there at the moment what's your responsibility at the council what are you doing on the ground as far as the emergency effort is concerned? Well, I'm part of the legislative branch and to oversee and approve of the budget. So we will be looking at all of these issues intently as we need to pay for all the costs of rebuilding, recovery, helping people move into shelters. Many people lost their homes. So we have to find places for them to live. But we are not, as the legislative branch, we are not the boots on the

ground necessarily. We're not putting out fires. We handle the policy making and the budget approving of county council. which of course is huge and you must just be exhausted by the crisis i know it's incredibly late there um we really appreciate you coming to speak to us um but i know it's exhausting for everybody and upsetting as well what help do you need from the outside world now going forward? Well, going forward, we need help to get people whole again. They lost all of their, many lost all of their belongings besides their homes.

So we are, anybody who is able to help us with supplies would be very helpful. And you know, we are very grateful because we have been receiving help from around the world, not just within Maui, not just within the state of Hawaii, but around the world. And we're very, very appreciative of the generosity and kindness and compassion that has been shown to the people of Maui County. Well, we're all thinking of you and good luck with your continued efforts. We'd love to speak to you again in a few weeks time and we

hope that tomorrow is much easier and pleasanter than imagined. Thank you Alice, that's Alice Lee who's chair of the Maui County Council. Now moving on today we want to talk about a podcast that has hit our airwaves and is making waves because it is a feast of laughter, vulnerability and deep conversations. Well, these are the words used to describe Andy and Makita Oliver's new podcast called Stirring It Up. In every episode, the mum and daughter duo invite a guest and their guest chosen plus one around for a dinner party. The setting is Andy's kitchen table. And it's crucial for both of them because as Makita has said this is how our family grew around a table with mum's chicken. Well they're

both here in the studio with me now thank you so much welcome to both of you. Thank you. Makita I want to start with you because you said that during your childhood your favourite noise was that sort of comforting lullaby of the sound of your mum and her friends around that kitchen table so why was it so important for you to format this podcast there? What was it that really was ingrained in you and you felt this is what I need to show? I think with everything that we do, we always try and just do it truthfully and do what we would do any way in life. And there was quite a lot of offers for us to do a podcast for quite a quite a while but we've both been extremely busy um and didn't really know what to do and then I was like let's just do what we actually do which is have people around feed them up and love them

up actually a few years ago in lockdown we started um as something called what's for dinner mummy which was literally the more I say it the more ridiculous it sounds it was in lockdown we're all mental but um but i was filming mum uh just cooking you know just just out of boredom and then i started editing them and we put them up and it became a weekly thing and people started to absolutely love it so stirring it up is very much just an extension of that and that really was just us in the kitchen so we just wanted to it to be not I guess raw is the right word raw and real and just like what we've always done same as it ever was come over get fed get loved up and and it feels less edited in a way because everyone is just so relaxed they're sort of like chewing at

the same time of their eating and I think I feel like it allows their inner secrets to come out a little bit absolutely and I think the reason we want the guests, we invited the guests to bring somebody with them, that's one thing we always do anyway, just I'll bring whoever you want with you. But also it takes our primary guest or the first person that's invited off of that interview treadmill that you can get on when you've got a kind of creative project out in the world

and you're sort of doing loads of interviews about it, you can be on a sort of bit of a treadmill. If they bring somebody with them that's important to them, that they care about, it opens them up in a completely different way. So you can obviously talk about the work that you're doing, but actually we get an insight into real life for people. And as we were talking about on the way over here, actually,

one of the things that we've really started with as an idea and it's really coming, like really playing out well, is that for us, everybody's story is interesting. Everybody's interesting. You don't have to be, you know, well-known or in a public arena to be interesting. So we're getting stories from all sorts of people, which is what we really, really wanted to do.

Then it really is just a dinner party and not an interview. Do you know what I mean? When you were saying, I was talking about the sound of dinner, like it was a lullaby to me and not just my mum and her friends, like even going around to my mate's house, I'd love the sound of their parents and their friends downstairs. It's that kind of general hum of exchange and emotion and joy and everything that happens in life,

I feel like also happens around the kitchen table, but like just sort of condensed in a condensed way. and I sometimes I want to go to a dinner party but I can't actually be bothered to go to a dinner party so you just get them to come to you yeah you don't have to leave your house but now now you can listen to the podcast it's like you know when you sometimes want to be at a dinner party but you actually have to leave the house you can just sit and vacantly listen I love that that's definitely what I've been doing. But you do all talk about how that's kind of your family and the way family has grown for you. Andy, what does family mean to you?

Because I know you're both from an unconventional family, they call it, you know, single parent. So what is family to you, to both of you? Family is care and it's love and it's connection. And for our immediate family, we've got quite a big blood family anyway but then we've got you know I guess what people call an extended family but it's because some people come into your life and you recognize it's like your souls recognize each other you have

spirit recognition you know and when you meet people like that you can't let them go you have to hold them close and and keep and keep them next to you. You have to stay next to each other. That's how I survived. You know, when Makita was small and I had no money and, you know, being a single parent. And in some ways, I think more families look like that than don't look like that these days. Families are unconventional, I suppose. There is no really one way to have a family. The idea that there's sort of two up, two down down two you know a mum and a dad and two kids or whatever that's far from the reality I know very few families that kind of look like that really in some ways um so family to me are the people that you love and the people

you care about the people that you can call at five in the morning and go help and they're there at the drop of a hat the people you know that that will listen to you when you know they're so tired that they're about to drop but they know that you need them. Yeah. And because of that, because of mum being so young, because of us being just mum and I, my mum's, excuse me, my mum's friends raised me. That's why they're aunties. They're not just my mum's mates. They're my aunties. I mean, I was there. She popped in, but it was mainly the aunties. You need a community around you, don't you?

And that's what really comes across in your podcast, actually. In all the interviews, you talk about that community and how it's important to have people together. It's vital. I think it's vital. And I think it's, you know, one of the problems, you know, isolation is a big problem these days. Loneliness is a big problem these days. It's because communities are broken down.

So people don't know the names of their neighbour. People don't know the other people who live on their street I have never been I've always known my neighbors and the people who live on our street and on the next few streets because I talk to everybody you know and I think that for us making the all the work that we do the podcast the film that we made films that we made in the Caribbean all of those things are an extension of the way that we live our lives and an extension of the world that we want to see and the world that we want to be part of, you know. And I know that another theme in your podcast that comes through

is the sort of positivity you both have, actually. And, Andy, you've turned a lot of negative experiences in your life into positive ones. What do you think has driven that? Why is that your outlook? Because that's how I survived, you know. That's how I survived you know that's why I survived you know early racist abuse when I was a kid which was daily it was daily it was the 1970s it was Suffolk and you know every single day of my life there you know it was like walk running

the gauntlet getting into my school sometimes from you know lots of weird National Front Suffolk really 1970s nightmares but I do feel you know the old adage National Front Suffolk 1970s nightmares. But I do feel, you know, the old adage, that which does not kill you does make you stronger. And I feel that those things are now my superpower. You know, learning to love yourself, knowing that you can survive the darkest days, knowing that you can survive being broken on the floor. You know, there's a tune, we keep singing that song Freedom today.

But there's a line in it that says, you kick me down, I get back up, I'm coming back in multiples of ten. And that's kind of how I feel. And even when I say those words, I get like a little thrill that goes through my body because every time you get a bit broken and you survive it,

I feel stronger and more powerful and more like I'm reaching to the sun. And all my life people have told me, oh, you're quite a powerful woman. And I never knew what they meant when I was younger. And now that I've got to this point in my life, I'm like, that's right. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I love that. And Makita, what's it like having such an inspirational mother?

You've got some nice things now. She says it's me all the time. No, no no no it's uh it's um it's an unbelievable time to in our lives because i think we both really see each other and i don't know whether that's the ages we are or what we've been through or what's happening right now but there's just something about us at the moment that we're very open to each other and are each other's biggest support system and also uh we're making our dreams together realities and we're creating autonomy and freedom for ourselves in our career. And to do that together, yeah, I couldn't do it

unless my mum sort of was who she was. But then she's made me who I am and it's sort of like we reflect off each other now and it's like kind of bouncing back and forth and that's when really special things happen. And i think we feel really powerful at the moment and you know we're producing this podcast um we're co-producing it um with our production company yaya productions that has been a huge thing for us it's us um being determined to make big moves and you know what did we say uh bigger moves stronger. And it's about staying in this industry

and having autonomy within it and never waiting around for anyone ever again. Yeah, you can't wait around for other people to give you permission to live. Yeah, and you've spoken to amazing, other inspirational people as well. You've got Cathy Burt, you've got Elizabeth Day. There are amazing amounts of people in there

and it must be so amazing that you get something from them as well as them being able to tell their stories. Oh, it's beautiful. Totally, when Cathy Burt was around and also the fact that they're around at Mums, of people in there and it must be so amazing that you get something from them as well as them being able to tell their stories. Oh, it's beautiful. Totally. When Kathy Burke was around and also the fact that they're round at mum's, we love that.

Like really like Scout, our dog, is barking. My nan lives with my mum now. She's like walking in and out. It really is just round at my mum's. And Kathy was so comfortable of course because she had

Pippa with her, the guest that she brought, her friend, TV producer. Brilliant producer. And I was just like, I'm sorry, but life is great. I get to sit around at my mum's and Kathy Burke's telling me life advice. And we get to listen to it.

You guys hear it all. We are out of time, Lyders. I'm so sorry, but it's been amazing to speak to you. The Stirring Up podcast is available wherever you get your podcast from. So good luck with it. I know you've got lots more plans as well. Thank you so much for coming and talking to us about it. Thank you so much.

Thank you for having us. Thank you. Thank you. Now, next week will mark two years since the Taliban retook power in Afghanistan. It's something we're going to be talking about on the programme. And during that time, women and girls have found many curtailments on their liberties and their way of life. Women and girls are banned from schools, colleges and universities. They must dress in a way that only reveals their eyes and have to be

accompanied by a male relative if travelling for more than 50 miles. Women have been banned for working for aid agencies and from visiting parks, gyms and swimming pools. Football is also not allowed. Well, we're also in the middle of the Women's World Cup, which we've been following very closely here on the programme. So today I can speak to Afghanistan's most successful and most influential female footballer, Dr Nadia Nadim. Nadia first kicked a football at the age of 11 when she was in a Danish refugee camp. Her family had been forced to flee Afghanistan

following the death of her father at the hands of the Taliban. So Dr Nadia Nadim has gone on to represent Denmark, just missing out on this year's World Cup due to her injury, but she's also a medical doctor, qualifying last year. She's now in the States playing for Racing Louisville FC and she joined me recently on a rare day off we managed to catch her. I asked her for her reflections as we marked the anniversary of the Taliban's latest takeover of Afghanistan And I began by asking her what her upbringing in the country was like. I have a really, you know, mixed memory of my time in Afghanistan as a child. First part of it is beautiful. I've, you know, been raised in a very safe environment, safe family.

My mom, dad worked and we used to go kindergarten, everything. And then the last part of it is very different it was when after the Taliban gained power my dad was executed and we were almost on a run with my mom and yeah five five kids I think my mom you know is was a very educated woman and she knew that okay if everything is you know so far right now what is the future going to bring she chose yeah to leave the country um try to find a home somewhere else around the world and then somehow we you know Denmark became a new home I guess the picture you paint is so vivid especially because your father was killed by the Taliban in 2000 and

and then that meant as you say your your mother left the country she was she was protecting you and your four sisters as as any mother would and that meant you moved to Denmark and and but it was there wasn't it that your love for football began because you were in a refugee camp and I suppose that was the only thing you could do what What was that like for you, that first moment when you started to have a kick about? Do you remember it? Of course I remember it. It's like probably one of the most significant moments in my life because it changed my entire life and my entire being, I suppose.

Imagine being a girl, a kid who for years and years just been like in a little box and and being scared of what's outside and everyone trying to protect you and you weren't allowed to do this this this and then suddenly we arrived to this refugee camp and then there were there were no wars outside I could just go go out and just be safe. So me and my sister really quickly, we just started exploring the refugee camp, what was around there, what was happening. And very quickly that we find out this, you know,

that the camp was next to this football club. And they had the most amazing fields with perfect goals. Everything just lined up sharp. I remember the first day I saw a girl's team play football and I don't know I they were wearing I can describe you in details what was smell was how the sun was because that was how important that day was to me I saw this girl playing football and they looked so happy and they looked so free and and until that moment I didn't knew that women can play any sports so when I saw it I was I knew I was in love with the game

I was like I wanted to be that person I wanted to be on the field and so yeah we started playing with ourselves kicking around this little dodgeball that we have like a bouncy rubber ball and after a couple of months it wasn't enough for me. I wanted to be a part of a team. I wanted to do what they were doing. So we went from hanging outside the fences to have a bit more courage and be around the kids. And whenever they had like shooting drill, we used to bring back their balls.

And one day I just said, you know what, I'm going to go for it. We went, I asked the coach I said me on the field and he said yeah you're limited language but you were like me field please basically international language you know it's like um sign language um and he said you know to my surprise to be honest yes um because I didn't expect it to be that easy. I was expecting for me to somehow beg him, please, you know, come a couple of times, maybe a week, a month. But he said right away, yes, I trained and trained. And then a certain day he gave me my first couple of months off. He gave me a note which said Saturday, 12 here, first game.

And, you know yeah it was crazy like i remember running back to you know to the camp around to my mom and i was like explaining her to her that it was important for me to have some cleats because this is my first game and everyone's wearing cleats i can't play with tennis shoes on grass and so we went to a second-hand store and luckily or unluckily for me there was these adidas boots from 1938 wow very very old but I didn't care you know I I slept in them I showered with them because someone had told me if you wet them and then wear them they're gonna spit your feet they really didn't nothing changed nothing helped not even nothing helped but I didn't really care you know what mattered was that I was a part of

something and I was accepted even though you know I looked different I didn't speak the language I wasn't from there I wasn't like them and it's wonderful and and the way you describe this refugee camp you know I'm sure it wasn't all goodness and light, but actually it gave you hope and it gave you a dream. And you've gone on to have a hugely successful career playing for the Danish international side and for some of the most successful women's clubs around the world. You've got Manchester City, Paris Saint-Germain. Like, what is it about football and you? Do you think it was the right time, right place? Or has it always been in you? Honestly, I think it kind of was fate that it was football. Without sounding arrogant, I think I had such a desire to do something with my life

because I was given a second chance that no matter what I did, I probably had succeeded in it because I was very hungry. I was hungry hungry I was like hungry for like be free but football made it easy for me because it is an easy sport it's like you don't you don't need fancy things you don't have to be rich to play football you just have something around to kick and I can hear that hunger and that passion in your voice you've got so much of it and obviously we're speaking to you right now to coincide with it being two years since the Taliban retook power in your home country of Afghanistan. How did you feel two years ago when the group that killed your father took power again?

Yeah. So for me, it was very, very hard to swallow. I was feeling sorry for, you know, all the women and all the girls in the country and I was feeling sorry for them right now but also for their future because you're taking away their tools to work they can use to like build a future you know not attending school how on earth are you ever going to compete with any other woman who's been living in a different country if you're not allowed to go to school it's such a basic thing you know we're not for big things, it's just going to school so you can learn to read, so you understand what's happening around you. I really, really hope that it's going to change, I really hope that, you know, at some point something happens, they wake up and they're like,

you know what, this is kind of stupid, maybe you should let 50% of our society be a part of the society because they can you know add to it they can be a part of like developing it and have a better future. You speak about school there and of course education was such an important part in your life you're a qualified medical doctor and you you took every moment that you could to learn and you've achieved so much greatness do you worry about the women and girls in the country now definitely um I think you know for me I speak a lot about football but education has been the highest priority in my life because my mom bless her soul she came from a family where girls were not going to school before her.

She was the first one attending school. And then once she graduated and that was against her father's will because the father didn't want her to go to school. So it's in my backbone that education is your sword in life for you to fight and to achieve things. So my mom was like, listen,

I love the fact that you guys want to play football. You do your thing, but I want you also to take care of school and this is what I did you know it was my my ticket to to play soccer or play football so I used to bring her ace and she'd be like okay go ahead play your game and of course it's not just in Afghanistan where women are under pressure or sidelined I mean alongside your footballing career you qualified as a medical doctor and you specialize in reconstructive surgery amazing feat but I understand that you were told you wouldn't be able to do both what did that feel like and how did you push those boundaries to make it happen it's funny you know you we always talk about like what kind

of things other kids are around, around the world. As you mentioned, Afghanistan, Persia, Africa, South America, girls have very limited access. And there are so many boundaries around them, what you're allowed to do, what you're not allowed to do. And I thought once arriving in Denmark that those wouldn't exist or in Europe. But that's not true. That's far from it. We still have been put in boxes every day and there's still so many boundaries around you because oh you are a female or you cannot do this and that I remember playing you know at the high level and I started med school my second trimester I was just being selected for the national team in Algarve and my selection fell at the same time as one of the

biggest exams in the school so I went and obviously I wanted to go with the national team and I went and talked to university and I said what can we do give me some solutions please because I'm it's so hard for me to be two places at the same time and the lady looked at me dead in my eyes and said well this is so sad for you just you have I guess you have to choose now and for me you know I thought it was it was stupid again I was put in a box and this was your limits and you have to make a choice I was like no there should be more there should be options I refuse to like you know accept this so yeah and somehow what 12 years later here I am I remember when I came out when I came out of my last exams and I was always very emotional because the pressure like you have no idea the pressure out of my shoulder and I start

getting emotional and I was remembering her face and I said I'm gonna find the lady and tell her in your face I've told you I did it I did it look I can do both yeah oh yeah exactly so it might take you ages well you know what you are capable of and I think this is not something that's only in Afghanistan or Africa or South America happens in UK and Denmark every day we are put in these boxes and they're like, this is it. But refuse because there's so much more in the world that you can do. And of course, now your two professions, in a way, although they're very different, they do intersect when it comes to the topic of injuries.

I mean, you yourself, I know, have suffered from an ACL injury twice in your career. I've had an ACL injury as well. And some of the players from last year's Euros aren't playing this year's World Cup because of them. What are you calling for with your campaign in this area? I think one of the things is to create awareness that this is impacting girls way more than the men's. And the reason for it, I don't think there's one reason.

There's multiple factors that play a huge role in this. I think we need more funding to have more research to find out how we can prevent this you know let's be honest you know i think until now for female player everything that i do is i'll say something that has been designed to a male player we just replicate it because there's not enough research understanding how our bodies work but now when the women's game is growing as it does and there's more money in it i think it's on time for us to take action and try to understand the female body you know you by nature build where you have your muscles or weak around your knee is something that we need to educate the younger girls and

something that we have to be you know I guess more aware of are you going to fully get rid of it no that's always going to be a part of the sport because it's a contact sport but I think you could eliminate a lot of it because I think right now it was like 68 times higher frequency among female athletes than there are men's which is crazy. Yeah it is um it sounds like you've got a lot of work on your hands and I hope you keep pushing that. I know lots of listeners will have come across you during the Men's World Cup in Qatar where you were a pundit for the TV coverage.

But I remember you had to leave the set very suddenly during one game because you learned that your mother had very suddenly died following a road accident. That must have been incredibly difficult. And I'm so sorry that that that that happened um you've already in this interview described your mum as such a a strong and inspiring person you told us earlier about your early life with her can you can you tell me more about her

and her influence on you one of the strongest human beings I've ever seen she was like the tiny lady but had like a power of I don't know what like a supernova in her and she gave us like my siblings a second chance in life because I always thought that everything I am or most of my genes because of my dad because she was a and he was like this super smart guy but the older get, the more I think I'm more my mom because it's not about everything else. It's just about the heart and the passion that she had and the willpower that she used to have. And I see so much of myself in her.

And, you know, I'm honestly, I guess most people say this, but I'm so happy that I got to have her as my mum. Well, that was Dr Nadia Nadim, surgeon and champion footballer. And don't forget that England play Colombia in the quarterfinals this Saturday if you want to keep up with all the action in the Women's World Cup. Now, Listener Week is coming up and there are still a few slots left for your stories and your questions. We'd love to hear from you.

So are there any topics you'd like us to explore or investigate maybe it's about pay and conditions in a certain industry or a lack of female representation in a sector or even sport or about how the media covers issues related to women you can get in touch you can text woman's hour on 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate. And on social media, we're at BBC WOMENSHOUR, or you can email us through our website as well. Now, last week, we spoke to the children's charity, the NSPCC, who talked about how the school summer holidays

can be a particularly difficult time for children. And they are asking the public to be extra vigilant and contact them on their helpline if they have concerns. But what happens if you are worried about the well-being of a child? When should you make that call and what happens when you do? Well I'm joined now by Ruth Nicholson-Grindrod who's the tracking manager at the NSPCC helpline who has worked on the helpline for over a decade. And I'm also joined by Brad, who made that call a few years ago when he was a phone engineer.

Well, welcome to you both. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Ruth, I'd like to start with you first, because I know you work on the helpline and have done for a long time now, across three bases, Salford, Belfast and Birmingham. And the helpline receives, I think, on average, 59,000 calls a year. That's about 150 calls a day. Who is calling? What are they saying? And how do you respond? So anyone can phone the helpline with any concerns whatsoever. We have members of the public, professionals, family members, tradespeople, and literally anybody who has any concern about a child can phone.

The phone would come through to the initial call would go through to a helpline advisor. It would then go through a helpline practitioner. And from there, the decision as to what would happen next would be made. It may be a case of advice is needed. So it might simply be a case that we have a chat with the person who's calling. Actually, we don't need to do anything now. Keep an eye on the young person. Keep an eye on the child. Let us know if it gets any worse. It might be a case of there's really serious concerns that are immediate concerns that we then have to phone out for a welfare check, phoning the police to get them to go around and make sure the child's safe. Or it may be a case of that the referral would go into children's services for them to look at some longer term care. Okay well one of the people that did make one of those calls is Brad and he's here now. Hi Brad, can you tell us about that call that you did make

to the NSPCC helpline? Okay so it was a reasonably warm day a few years ago, and I was tasked to go and install a telephone line or to put broadband on a telephone line in a property. As soon as I walked in, it was an upstairs flat. As soon as I walked in through the doors and was walking up the stairs, I noticed an immense amount of flies and rubbish strewn up the stairs. Now, it gets to the top of the stairs and I'm literally having to wade through needy rubbish. Every single room is just full of rubbish. And I'm not just talking about clutter, I'm talking about bags of rubbish. At one point I walked past a bag of potatoes with eight inch kind of heads growing out of the potatoes.

It hadn't been changed in that long. The residents of the flat had a number of cats and animals and the smell of urine was really acrid honestly it was making my eyes sting and I could hardly breathe but I'm a professional so kind of you know I can understand that these two adults lived like that and wasn't happy about it but I continued my job. But it wasn't just adults who were living there was it? Well I didn't know that at that time. Okay. So I had to go out and do some work on the outside of the building and to get some fresh air, to be perfectly honest.

When I came back in, you know, after toying with myself about whether or not to continue the job for health and safety reasons, I went back in and that's when I noticed that there was a young child on the settee. How young are we talking? Toddler-wise, I'll be honest, I don't actually know, but maybe it's two, three, four, something like that. And what did you notice about this child?

Were they being looked after or was it a similar situation to the house? Well, there was absolutely no room in the house for this child to play. Now, I have children of my own, and at that time, one of my children was roughly about the same age. So I kind of know the difference between kind of kids dirty. Kids get dirty, that's it. But when I looked at this child, it was ingrained dirt.

It was clear that this child hadn't been washed or looked after. And to be honest, it broke my heart there and then. I bet it did. And it was obviously neglect you could see before your very eyes. And that must have been such a difficult decision to make. and i suppose how do you know what to do from that point ruth if i can ask you um what what should someone do at that point phone the helpline we are open between 10 a.m and 8 p.m every day the phone number is 0800 8000 sorry 0800 805 000 i apologize for that it slipped off my screen so 0800 805 000 and don't worry we do have the link on our website so if anybody does want all more information it is

there as well um thank you but it always phone us always phone but then what happens then what do the call handlers do what what what happens your call? Because there might be people listening that have seen something like this or feel that they may need to report something. But at the same time, you don't know somebody else's situation. You don't know what's going on in that family. Is it the right thing to do? And also, what if you're not on a job to a stranger's house? What if it's someone you know? What if it's someone who lives next door to you? That's very difficult. And can your call to the NSPCC mean you're embroiled in it? I'm just imagining the concerns that people may be having. Absolutely. And you can always ask to remain anonymous and we will value your request for anonymity. I would always say if you have any concerns at all, if you

don't do anything, nothing's going to change. If do phone us something might change and you might be the only person that's ever seen what you've seen and that you can be the one person to make that difference in that child's life well brad you did make that call do you think it was the right decision obviously now in in complete hindsight but with what you were saying before that there was a kind of moral dilemma in my head whether or not to to to get involved in the first place and it was only after a conversation with my mother um who kind of said look can you live with this on your conscious if what you believe is but is right and i went well i kind of i don't know where to go and she just said speak to the professionals speak to the nspcc let them take control of it

from now on and let them make the judgment call well we do know that from your call the children's services got involved that child now lives with their parents and is in their grandparents sorry and is in much happier state so um well done brad thank you ruth for joining us and explaining it so eloquently and as i said there is a link on our website to the NSPCC helpline if anyone wants more information there. There's always advice on the BBC Action Line as well. Now, let's get on to our topic this morning of hip hop, because 50 years ago today, some teenagers threw a back to school party in the Bronx in New York City. That gathering is now considered to many to be when the birth of hip-hop took place. Whilst hip-hop undoubtedly has a darker side

and a controversial image, particularly in its experience for the women involved, they have always been there as MCs, DJs, producers in the genre, as well as behind the scenes as well, such as songwriters, journalists and reps, with some of the biggest names in the genre of music being female. Let's now just have a listen to a sample of just a few artists that you may have heard of. It's your primitive and flat and yet You know all of that gots to go Now everybody knows there's exceptions to this rule I don't be getting mad when we playing, it's cool

But don't you be calling me out my name I bring crap to those who disrespect me like a dame That's why I'm talking One day I was walking to the shop I love that. I'm literally bopping in the Woman's Hour studio right now. It's amazing. Well, you heard there Missy Elliott, Queen Latifah and of course, finishing with Lauren Hilde that you can hear. And I'm joined by Jacqueline Springer, who's music journalist and curator of Africa and Diaspora performance at the Victoria and Albert Museum. Welcome, Jacqueline.

Good morning. I saw you bubbling there. Can you see me? I didn't realise you can see me. I'm properly going for it. I just love Missy Elliott and Lauryn Hill and all of it as well. But for those listeners who may not think they know any women in hip hop, can you remind us of some of the more well-known women that they may have heard of? Well, I think, you know, Lauryn Hill is one of the breakouts because, you know, six million copies of her first solo album.

But, you know, to be thinking about British MCs, you've got Estelle, you've got Miss Dynamite, you've got a slew of artists who have infiltrated. You know, they provide that earworm, Salt-N-Pepa with Push It and Let's Talk About Sex. All of these songs, they have, some of these songs are actually, you know, non-verbally, but the melodies are in supermarkets as you're actually going to get, you know, your weekly basics. Yeah, we're surrounded by it and perhaps don't realise how much it has infiltrated our society and our culture. So why do you think it's important to mark this anniversary today? It exists. Hip hop as a musical, you know, culture exists. Rap music as a musical form exists. And it was created out of, you know, in parallel, but not in, obviously not identical to rock and roll. We're talking about a youth driven musical movement that has galvanized creativity and it spirals it's actually it's

ricocheted around the world it affects how people your listeners that their children their grandchildren speak how we dress the the the dominance of streetwear has everything to do with hip-hop and the way in which people informal eyes the way the way that they actually seek to mobilize themselves through capitalism is by thinking that they can actually enter annals of employment of creativity that that hip-hop has actually pushed the door open through yeah massively influential and but i suppose we can't sorry sorry to interrupt there but i suppose we can't ignore the sort of negative side of things as well because certainly for for women there have been examples of misogynistic lyrics, sexualized images

of women, incidents of violence against women within the industry. What do you make of all that and where do we stand at the moment with it? What we have to remember is rap is no different than it sounds and its origins are different than any other musical form but it is also made up by the same species that populate any other musical form and so when we have instances of sexism, of violence against women, it's not lost on me that I'm speaking to you just a couple of days after Tory Lanez was convicted of shooting one of rap's breakout most exciting talents in Megan Thee Stallion. What we have is a musical genre that features people who are reared in a society that they narrate and bring to us. So I'm not a rap apologist. What I am is a music and cultural

interrogator. And everything that we see in rap is mirrored elsewhere within society. What is problematic for people is that when people are actually delivering tales, whether they're fantasised or in reality, that they seem to be celebrating the inequalities and violence. But of course, it's not just the main artists at fault here, is it? We've also got the back catal catalog and the people behind the scenes who perhaps aren't getting equal pay women aren't given the stunts that they deserve um has there been any movement in in gaining equality where that's where that's concerned of course when we when you think about um the work that dream hampton has done um in in exposing the tyranny of R Kelly's crimes, she began as a rap journalist. When you think about some of the activations on propelling the memory and the contributions,

when I say memory, I mean the performative memory and contributions of MCs like MC Shah Rukh, of Queen Latifah, of Monie Love, women who actually pushed against the notion that rap was just a male in entity and you've got photographers like Martha Cooper and others who have sought to actually allow for want of a better term, MCs of all dimensions and when I say dimensions I mean not all women want to actually look in a particular way. Some are hyper-sexualised. Some want to be completely almost androgynous. You have a firmament that allows that to happen once women are actually brought in and women did enter.

And of course... They were there from the beginning. And there is examples of that solidarity and the sisterhood as well, isn't there? Hip-hop has done amazing things for women. I think, of course it has you know we wouldn't have people like Queen Latifah we wouldn't have the legacy that we have in the UK here of Miss Dynamite or without the cookie crew we wouldn't have jams that we that we proudly recite thanks to Estelle and others but what we we don't have to

really think about it as whether or not it's a sisterhood it's about people who can rap people who can write people who can direct and take photographs who have an equal shot at the target and it's thanks to what happened 50 years ago today that that expanded and a celebration of that that we're having today so thank thank you so much, Jacqueline. It's been great to hear so much about the history of it as well as celebrating it today. Lots of people have been getting in touch online to tell me their favourite hip-hop tunes.

Here's a message that says, Lauren Hill, anything from her Miss Education album, she is the hip-hop queen. This one says, the first vinyl I ever bought was Roxanne Shante. I was 13 and have been in love with hip hop ever since. I love the female rappers from the 90s, Miss Elliot, but currently Nadia Rose. I feel privileged to learn today that I was born the same year as hip hop.

And we've got lots more examples coming in. In fact, Andy from our first item just mentioned to me as she was leaving that she absolutely loves Sweet Tea by Vicious Rap. She says her and Gran still boogie to it now. So it obviously has resonance with so many people. Please keep your comments coming in. It's absolutely brilliant to hear from you today. But moving on to some different type of music now, because Emma Ravitch is an award winning young saxophonist and composer already making waves in the UK music scene. She's

described as an astonishing new talent by Jamie Cullum. And Emma is a recipient of the 2021 Drake Yolanda Award, the winner of the Best Newcomer at the 2022 Parliamentary Jazz Awards, as well as being a finalist in the BBC Young Jazz Musician competition. Her forthcoming album, Chroma, will be released later this month and she joins me now live in the studio together with her band. It's so lovely to have you here, welcome guys. Thanks so much for having us. It's brilliant to have, we've got a grand piano, we've got a saxophone and we've got a guitar, it's lovely to have you all here with us but Emma can I first ask you, because you didn't start off in this genre did you? I mean classical and folk were

perhaps your origins, tell me about your musical journey so far I guess my musical journey has been a little bit random I guess most people I think come to jazz a little bit earlier than I did but I had the pleasure of getting to try out lots of different styles when I was a bit younger so getting to play classical violin dabbling in a bit of folk although I'm sure that it wasn't massively authentic, to be honest, growing up in North Devon. But yeah, played a bit of clarinet, a bit of piano and gradually found my way to the saxophone

when I was about 15 or 16. And that's when things really clicked for me and I figured out what I really wanted to do musically. So what attracted you to the saxophone? I think, well, I actually heard an amateur big band play when I was maybe 12, something like that. And due to that being a bit of a lack of live music in North Devon, a lot of my music that I was interested in came from film scores or whatever I could find on my dad's iPod. So I wasn't really, I didn't really hear all that much of the saxophone except in those contexts.

But every time I did, it really captivated me and I kind of felt like something I really wanted to try for myself. And how unusual are you in being a female saxophonist? It must be rarer than the male equivalent, I imagine. I guess so. I mean, on the UK jazz scene, certainly there are less female instrumentalists than male instrumentalists. But there are plenty of amazing female musicians around and like more and more all the time, I think. So I guess sort of unusual. But to be honest, it's not something that really occurs to me all that often because the scene's really very supportive of all people, including women.

And you are doing amazingly well. And in fact, you'll be releasing your second album, Chroma, later this month. Can you tell me about it and tell of a real kind of ambition to start off a new project with some of my favorite musicians in London none of whom I'd really played with all that much before so it kind of felt really cool to start off with some new music and a new project and them all getting involved in it and feeling like they were really up for playing this new music that I'd written. Chroma means color and it kind of comes from the fact that I actually have synesthesia, which means that I have a really strong link between colours and music. And I see colours when I'm playing music.

And the kind of music that I wrote on Chroma, I decided to flip that process on its head and try and write music from colours and just see how that kind of came out. So this album is the result of that little experiment, I guess. This is so interesting. It's totally blown my mind, the fact that you not only hear music, but you see it as well. I suppose, yeah, yeah. Can you explain to me what that looks like? How does that work?

Well, I guess it's a pretty instant connection for me. It's always been there. And it's not just colour, it's kind of shapes as well. So when I'm playing with this lovely band that are in the studio with me, including with any musicians, it's a very instant response that I think my brain has to music that's being played. And it's kind of in my mind's eye all the time, I suppose. And yeah, it's cool because it kind of influences the way I play. And sometimes when I'm especially playing with great musicians like these, I get to kind of just not even think about the notes and chords that I'm playing and just think about the colours.

And that can sometimes make for really fun and interesting results musically. It's amazing. So tell me about the tune you're about to play because you're going to play Rangwali for us now. It's your own composition and one of the tracks on Chroma. Tell me about it. Rangwali was one of the tunes, probably the third or fourth tune that I wrote for the album. And the Rangwali itself is a kind of light purple kind of colour.

I love that. Yeah, yeah, it's cool. It's a great shade. But this is, I guess, what you're about to hear is kind of how that colour kind of sounds to me. I think I have a lot of different kind of influences. There's definitely jazz in there. But one influence that's been really important to me for the whole time I've played music is the influence of Latin American music, specifically Afro-Cuban music and Brazilian music.

And I think maybe this is one of the tunes that groove-wise draws a little bit more on that. It's amazing. Well, I can't wait to hear it. Please take it away. This is Rangwali from the album Chroma. What an amazing way to end the show today. Thank you so much. That was absolutely perfect. Thank you to Emma, who was on saxophone.

Thank you to Ivo on piano and David on guitar. And of course, the album is out on the 25th of August. So thank you so much for joining us. And that's all from me for today. But thank you to my guests and thank you to everyone who's contributed. Don't forget, you can join me on Weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow, where we will be discussing fertility anxiety and why some women fear they can't easily have children

despite having no known health issues. That's Weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow from four. But that's all from me today. Bye bye. Well, thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds. Hi, it's Annette Catwalla. And Charlotte Stavrou here. We wanted to tell you that season two of All Consuming from BBC Radio 4 is here.

In this series, we'll be once again delving into our culture of consumption by examining the services and products that have changed the world. This time, we're looking at houseplants. I fell in love with that madly. The idea of just turning a plant into this giant analogue synthesiser. Running shoes. The beauty of it is you get a chance to understand performance at the highest level. And tea.

It's the connection and the safety cues to your body that it's over and you're safe. And much more. So join us for the second season of All Consuming, available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.