Woman's Hour - Andrew Tate investigation, Prisoners early release scheme, Tracy-Ann Oberman, Paralympics wrap up

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

Social media influencer Andrew Tate and his brother Tristan are facing charges in Romania of human trafficking and organised crime. If found guilty, they could be jailed for more than 10 years. They strongly deny the charges against them. Now, two British women not involved with the Romanian case, have given detailed first-hand accounts to the BBC, against Andrew Tate, of alleged rape and sexual violence. The allegations date back at least 10 years, to when Mr Tate was living in Luton. BBC Panorama reporter Ruth Clegg joins Nuala McGovern to discuss. Tracy-Ann Oberman has reprised her role as Eastenders’ Chrissie Watts. She talks to Nuala about stepping back into this character after almost two decades, and her recent adaptation of Shakespeare’s The Merchant of Venice. In it, Tracy-Ann plays a female version of the Jewish character, Shylock, and sets the action in 1930s London during the rise of Oswald Mosley, the antisemitic founder of the British Union of Fascists.Around 1,700 prisoners will be freed tomorrow when the government's new early release scheme, SDS40, comes in to effect. We look at both the impact that this scheme will have on women who have been the victims of crime and the experiences of women in prison. Nuala speaks to Andrea Coomber KC, Chief Executive of the Howard League for Penal Reform which campaigns for prison reform.Rebecca Middleton was in her late 30s when she was diagnosed with a brain aneurysm. It is a condition that's believed to be more common in women than men and in Rebecca's case it was hereditary – she lost her grandmother and mother to the condition, which is what led to her own genetic testing. Rebecca has since had successful surgery to remove the aneurysm and has also created the charity, Hereditary Brain Aneurysm Support to help other people going through it. In Paris, pouring rain and exploding fireworks ended the Paralympics last night with drenched, dancing Paralympians. Nuala is joined by Paralympian turned broadcaster, Rachael Latham to talk about the standouts, surprises and legacy of the Games.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Maryam Maruf Studio Manager: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, tomorrow some prisoners will be released after they have served 40% of their sentence in England and Wales, rather than the current 50%. The new early release scheme has been introduced by the government to reduce pressure on the prison service and free up jail space. But what will the consequences be for women, whether they are victims of crime or indeed women who are currently in prison?

Also on the programme, those who watched EastEnders on Friday will have seen a blast from the past. Chrissie Watts is back, played by Tracey-Anne Oberman, who is here to talk about her return to Albers Square after almost 20 years, and also returning to play Shylock in The Merchant of Venice, set in 1936.

In Paris last night, pouring rain and exploding fireworks ended the Paralympics with drenched dancing Paralympians. We're going to have a chat about what the Games achieved for disability inclusion. Did this or other Paralympic Games make a lasting impact on you? How? And I'd particularly like to hear from you if you or someone you know has a disability.

How does it feel at the end of this? It's LA that takes it over next. We're going to have a chat about all of that. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. You can also WhatsApp us, 03700100444. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or indeed email us through our website.

I want to begin with an update on the controversial influencer Andrew Tate and his brother Tristan. The pair are already facing charges in Romania of human trafficking and organised crime. Now prosecutors have launched a fresh investigation, including into an allegation against Andrew Tate of having sex with a minor.

In tonight's Panorama film, the filmmaker Oana Maricico returns to her home country to investigate the Tate's Romanian webcam business and also speaks to two women who claim they have been abused by their brothers. Both say it happened over a decade ago before his rise

to fame. He denies the claim and that is Andrew Tate. One of the women says Andrew Tate sent her voice and text messages afterwards describing how much he enjoyed it, that abuse that is alleged. Anna, we're not using her real name, spoke to BBC Panorama. She said she started seeing Andrew Tate back in 2013 and she says after they went on a few dates she went to his house in Luton

and that is when it turned violent. Her words are spoken by an actor and I do want to warn you, you will hear descriptions of sexually violent behaviour. I went up the stairs with him to the bedroom. He started kissing me on the bed. Out of the blue he just got up, grabbed me by the throat, strangling me extremely hard. Went straight home, got in the bath, started to cry. It's hard for me because I tried to block all that memory out of my brain because it upsets me too much. Afterwards, she says she received voice and text messages from him. Am I a bad person? Because the more you didn't like it, the more I enjoyed it. I loved how much you hated it.

Turn me on. Very difficult to listen to that. Panorama reporter Ruth Clegg joins us now. Tell us more, Ruth, what Anna told the BBC. Yes, good morning, Nuala. Yeah, it is quite difficult to listen to. It was the BBC Panorama producer,ana Maricica who made the film, who has had the contact

with these women. And she has been speaking to Anna for over a year now. And she said that they met many, many times. And for Anna, it wasn't an easy decision speaking to BBC Panorama

and being on such a huge platform. She was scared to speak out. And she said for fear of being trolled by online, by Andrew Tate, many millions of followers. In fact, the BBC did speak to a number of women and many of them didn't want to be involved in the BBC Panorama programme for the risk of the consequences. Because I suppose in a lot of respects, it's very difficult speaking about something that is so personal anyway but then to have that fear of it being made so public online now with Anna she says that she first met the Tate brothers that's

Andrew and his brother Tristan when she was 17 but she says she didn't start dating Andrew until a few years later in 2013, after seeing him in a nightclub in Luton. And back then, Andrew Tate, when Anna met him, she says he wasn't a household name. He was into kickboxing and he didn't have a huge online following like he does have now. So she said they went went on a few dates and as you heard in the clip she says after a few dates he suddenly turned violent and she alleges he raped her and then sent a disturbing voice and text messages afterwards about rape and sexual violence and you heard one of them just now and she also says in another text message he said that he loves raping her now she says that she reported all this to the police back in 2014 and they did send a file to the crown prosecution service but then

they decided there wasn't enough evidence to charge him that it didn't meet the very high legal test bbc panorama went to his house while he was under house arrest in June in Romania last year and he denied to the BBC Panorama producer Uwana Marichiko that he'd ever been violent towards a woman. Have you ever strangled a woman without her consent? No, and I can't answer this. The answer is no. The answer is no. No, why would I strangle a woman without her consent? I'm a full-grown man. No.

I know I've never hurt anybody. It's not in my nature to hurt people. It's in my nature to provide and protect. I look forward to the truth coming out. I look forward to the truth being blasted all over the BBC that Andrew Tate was found not guilty because I've never done anything wrong. Ruth, what about the other woman that the BBC spoke to?

Yes, we also spoke to Sienna. And again, just to say that we're not using her real name. And she met Andrew Tate on a night out in Luton back in 2014. She said they got on well at first, had a few drinks. And in her words, she said there were no bad vibes. But the second time she met him him they went to her house in London and this she says is when he turned violent during sex she says um he strangled her to the point that she lost consciousness and she was absolutely terrified now Sierra said that she did not report

anything to the police something that she she now. And she said as her older self looking back really on her younger self that she feels sorry that she allowed something like this to happen to her. So with, not their real names, Anna and Sienna, what are they doing now? They're both taking legal action along with two other women. They're both suing Andrew Tate for rape and sexual assault at the High Court and he is defending their claim he's denying any of this took place their case is expected to be heard next year and also just to mention the BBC did also ask him about the voice and text messages that Anna said she received from him but he declined to comment and Anna said that she feels that actually the

civil court now is her only option she's she's gone to the that she feels that actually the civil court now is her only option. She's gone to the police, she's gone to the CPS, she feels disappointed about what's come back from them and she feels that this is a way, going to the High Court, of potentially holding him accountable for what she says happened to her and some of the other women. So this is in the UK.

Andrew Tate himself, he's under house arrest in Romania at the moment? Yes, he is. Last year, he was charged with rape and human trafficking in connection with an adult webcamming business. He's accused of running in Romania and he's still waiting to go on trial for that. And now Romanian authorities have put him back under house arrest while these new

allegations are being investigated which include sex with a minor and trafficking minors. We put these allegations to him these latest allegations and he's declined to comment. Thank you very much for joining us that is Ruth Clegg and I want to let you know you can watch the edition of Panorama in full tonight on BBC One at 8pm and also on BBC iPlayer. If you have been impacted by anything you have heard during this interview, you can find support on the Woman's Hour website. Now, I want to turn to a little bit of television that I was catching up with last night. After almost two decades away from EastEnders, Chrissie Watts is back.

Now, she was spotted briefly, the final scene of Friday's episode, which I watched last night, taking a drag on her cigarette. Her character is played by Tracey-Ann Oberman, who left Albert Square back in 2005. Can it really be that long? When she was in prison for the murder

of her husband, Dirty Den. And Tracey is here. Welcome. Good morning. So nice to be here. So good to have you. Now, you're known for a lot more than EastEnders. Your work on screen includes Friday Night Dinner, Afterlife, Toast of London, It's a Sin,

all great stuff. On stage, you've played a female version of Shakespeare's Jewish character, Shylock, in The Merchants of Venice, 1936, and also worked on adapting that play to set it in the 1930s London during the rise of Oswald Mosley, the anti-Semitic founder of the British Union of Fascists. We'll talk about that as well. Shall we start with Chrissie? I mean, some people won't know who she is, right? So why don't we tell others that will know just more than enough?

But tell us a little for those who don't. Chrissie Watts was Soap's biggest villain was Dirty Den in EastEnders, I would say. And his second wife, Chrissie Watts, came back in about 2004. You know, listening to Andrew Tate, you do wonder, you know, I would say Den was quite a coercive controller and quite a toxic male character. And Chrissie basically murdered him, buried him under the Queen Vic. And then finally, after a very turbulent 18 months, ended up in prison where her stepdaughter and best friend, Sharon Watts, caught her with the police leaving Stansted Airport with her young lover, Jake Moon.

I actually watched, there was also somebody, we have a lot of fans out there, had also taken all your greatest lines and, you know, put them all together, which I quite enjoyed as well, including that airport and a particular funeral scene. Oh my gosh. I mean, I have to say I was only in the show for 18 months, but I got some really high octane stories. And my favourite one was being pushed into Den's open grave by Barbara Windsor, screaming, Chrissie Watts murderer and then falling. That is just a great TV soap moment.

It has to be said. And I should say with the character we're talking about, Andrew Tate, he wouldn should say with the character we're talking about, Andrew Tate, he wouldn't agree with that characterisation, of course, but back to you in EastEnders. You,

I heard at one point, because I love watching the characters in EastEnders, what they're wearing, how they wear their hair, the makeup, all that. Some of it is just

so spot on. You built the character of Chrissie Watts back in the day. Did you? Unlimited budget, is this what I heard, to create the wardrobe? Exactly. I felt like my very own pretty woman moment. You know, I got the part normally with these EastEnders characters. You get them after weeks and months and sometimes years of developing them.

From the time I auditioned to the time I was on camera, I had nine days. And I was whisked into Selfridges back in the day on probably the old BBC budget with an unlimited seemingly unlimited budget to build up a character wardrobe for the next two years it was incredible so yeah I very much felt this woman had lived in Europe for all her life and I love fashion and I did have a real hand in it I was quite proud to say that I managed to get a Dionne van Furstenberg wrap dress. I think even Vogue picked up on it. So listen, I won Best Dressed Soap Star 2005. I never need a BAFTA.

Were you allowed to do it this time? Oh, this time. This is the most glamorous prisoner you will ever see. I mean, Chrissy loved her fashion and she loved her look. She's been in prison for 20 years. I took my inspiration from Orange is the New Black. This woman is on point. Gosh, I love that programme as well. Your father, I read, loved EastEnders,

but he never saw you in it. He has already passed away. But it must be so wonderful to be part of something that I suppose was part of your family's viewing habits, etc., when you were growing up. Well, I think we're probably of a similar age. I mean, you know, there were no reality shows. There were only four channels. So EastEnders, you know, was a particularly huge show.

It was the water cooler moment. And to get into it was a really big thing. And, yeah, my dad was a very hardworking, worked in law. And he, you know, used to watch it religiously. It has a very wide demographic of watchers. So, yes, it was pretty amazing. And I come from an East End background, and so there was something sort of very nice about returning to the East End.

And what I loved about Chrissie and playing her was that there was something very old-school Hollywood about her. Was she a villain? Was she a victim? And soaps are so brilliant at writing very strong female characters. But you really love old school Hollywood, don't you? I do. I write a lot of radio plays. Yes, talk about that. I thought that was, do you know, the rivalry between Bette Davis and Joan Crawford comes up often on this program,

I have found, but this is something that has fascinated you as well. Yeah, I've written a lot of radio plays for Radio 4, some of which we're developing for TV and film. But the very first one I did was way before it became a kind of feud, was about the rivalry between Betty and Joan, Betty Davis and Joan Crawford, because these were two women. I'm always fascinated by Hollywood, old school Hollywood, where when you're young and very beautiful in those days, you had riches beyond and power beyond imagining in that studio system.

And when you got to 40, 45, it was kind of over for you very, very rapidly. And I've written a play about Anne Bancroft doing The Graduate. She was only two years older than Dustin Hoffman playing Mrs. Robinson. I didn't know that. I think he was 32 and she was 35 or 36. Gosh, she was portrayed as such the older lady. And it sort of ruined her career because she played it so brilliantly

that people just always saw her as this older woman. I've written about Elizabeth Taylor and Doris Day fighting over Rock Hudson coming out. Should he come out with AIDS, saying that he had AIDS? So I've written some really interesting ones. And I just my recent one was about Mae West, the most iconic female icon of a woman who, you know, in the 20s, wrote plays for herself, cast her own plays, produced her own films, saved Paramount, was probably the most was the second richest person in America.

Love it. And of course, her quotes live on in so many guises as well. Well, there's so many things you've brought up there that I want to get into. Everything from the East End and some of your role models. But just one thing before I get into those, you mentioned 40, 45, old Hollywood and wouldn't be seen again. But I do know that you're also part of the Acting Your Age campaign led by Nicky Clark, who wrote to Lisa Nandy, Secretary of State for Culture,

calling for better representation of older women in the arts. And when I watch the video that has been put out, it's talking about women in the entertainment industry, basically over 45, not being seen. Well, I was really shocked to learn the statistic that leading men, the acting age has now gone up to 48. To play opposite them, leading women, the age has gone down from 42 to 35 approximately. So no leading man will play opposite a woman on screen and you can't be what you can't see.

And actually women are very much in control of the TV remote control. They're in charge of booking cinema tickets. They're in charge of booking theatre. And it seems to be crazy that a huge swathe of our population of strong, dynamic, sexy, important women, you know, our stories are not being told. And if they are, they're not being represented by people that look like us. So what message are we sending out to society that if you can't see older women and how important they are still in society, you're never going to be able to appreciate or look forward to that age. It's like age is something to be feared. It's so interesting because often you do want to see yourself on screen. So I suppose that is a representation that is not there for many in the population. But what I suppose people are doing, that is not there for many in the population. But what I suppose people are doing, and there are older women in EastEnders, most definitely represent it.

And she soaps it really good at that. Yes, that's true. But you, like many others, have taken the task into your own hands. I want to speak about The Merchant of Venice in 1936 because you helped adapt that with the director, Bridgette Lamour. It was

very much my idea. Yes, let's talk about it. So maybe we'll even go back. Lots of people may not be familiar with The Merchant of Venice, may not be familiar with the character Shylock. Yes. Talk me through how you see it and why you wanted to also update it in this way. Shakespeare

wrote a play called The Merchant of Venice. It was 200 years plus after every Jew had been kicked out of England very violently. So he'd never met a Jew. And he wrote a play about a Jewish moneylender in Venice in the ghetto who lends money to a very anti-Semitic aristocratic merchant. And the jokey deal that they make is that if the merchant defaults Shylock will take a pound of flesh and terrible things happen to Shylock and they end up in court where Antonio defaults on the payment and Shylock says I have a legal document I want that pound of

flesh it's a deeply anti-semitic play it was Hitler's favorite play but a lot of people in in our industry I remember Juliet Stevenson and others saying this play shouldn't be put on anymore. And I'm very much into you have to reclaim history rather than just get rid of it. You can pull a statue down, don't smash it to pieces, but put it somewhere where you contextualize it. So it was very important to me to take The Merchant of Venice and I wanted to make it seen for exactly what it was. And I thought, what would happen if you took Shylock, this archetypal, villainous male moneylender, which is, you know, it was Hitler's favourite play for a reason. There were theatre critics, indeed, that said it was used as a propaganda tool in Nazi Germany. It was, and it's often been used. You can tell how society feels about its Jews and how they portray the merchant Venice. And I thought, let's turn it into a woman.

I'm going to base it on my great grandmother and all these amazing female matriarchs that were these immigrants into the east end of London. I had Machine Gun Molly. Machine Gun Molly. I think we should just take a second for how did she get that moniker? Machine Gun Molly was a widow in the east end. All the men had gone off to war and died. And she was tough as nails. My great my my bubba, my great grandmother, Annie, who I based my Shylock on. Again, a strong, tough female matriarch living in the slums of the East End.

I had another one called Sarah Portugal. She wore a slash of red lipstick and smoked a cigar or a clay pipe, depending on what the payday was like. But they ran their their businesses and their stalls in the marketplace with an iron fist because they had to survive. And the very things that immigrant women, when they come here, the very things that have made you survive were an anathema, particularly in the 20s and 30s. They wanted their women to be decorative and quiet. So I thought, what happens if you take Shylock with this one daughter, Jessica, you've set her up against the aristocratic fans of Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists.

Mosley and Diana Mitford were great friends with Hitler. He taught them how to march onto the East End to show the Jewish entity that they weren't welcome. I was brought up with stories from my family, my great grandmother and my grandmother, on the October the 4th, 1936, of standing on the front line against Oswald Mosley and the Irish working class neighbours, the small Afro-Caribbean community, the English working class and ordinary heroes from all over the country joined them to say to the fascists,

if you come for the Jews, you come for us all. And they stood together. And it was a civil rights moment that seems to have been forgotten about. So that merged into The Merchant of Venice and particularly with what's going on, I think, politically in the world today, has made a really potent bit of theatre that's coming back to the West End through popular demand. So I feel delighted.

And so indeed, because this was played and now it's coming back. How is it? You're doing a reprise of various roles. I'm calling it the sort of the autumn of the reprisal. Yeah, coming back as Chrissie after 20 years, I never thought that would happen. Another strong, tough Eastender. And then to bring Shylock back because it's sold out everywhere

and it's coming back into the Trafalgar Theatre in December and then it's going on a national tour. But it feels more than ever that that production is very important to be seen because it's strong, it's punchy, it's sexy. If you've never seen a Shakespeare before, you'll love it, but it will speak to you. I saw you actually were in a version of The Merchant off Venice years and years ago when you were just out of university.

That's how I started acting. What is it with this play that continues to... I know, it's weird. Arnold Wesker wrote a production called The Merchant. And we did it for the we did it in Edinburgh when I was a student at university. We took it to and he took me aside, Arnold. And he said, you should become an actress. And I said, my family are going to kill me. You know, you come from an immigrant family. All they want me to do is get an education. He said, no, this is what you should do. You were born to do this. And I said, I can't. And he said, you want me to talk to them? But he was always and I said, no, this is what you should do. You were born to do this. And I said, I can't. And he said, you want me to talk to them? But he was always, and I said, no, definitely don't talk to them, Arnold Wesker. But because of him, and you were playing the daughter originally, but now you're the mother,

but with the teenage daughter, Shylock's daughter in it. Does your life inform that? Yeah, very much. How you play it? The whole thing about The Merchant of Venice is very much about the mother and daughter relationship. And when you're a working class immigrant,

you want your daughter to have a much better life than you, but you don't want them to leave home and forget who they are. And that relationship is a very intense one. I've got one daughter. She's actually going into acting. She's brilliant. You didn't try and talk her out of it.

I think you're born to know she's too good. I couldn't. But we're very, very close. But, you know, your one daughter is your best friend, but can also be your worst enemy. And, you know, you're very enmeshed with each other. So I could, you know, I definitely drew onhed with each other so um I could you know I definitely drew on that and she came to see it there was one even a lot of projects on the go there was another

I saw that that that was interesting to me it's um you've signed up to take part in a new production at the Soho Theatre in London called White Rabbit Red Rabbit I have to say that slowly I know White Rabbit Red Rabbit good but um well, explain it a little bit. It's that you don't know the script beforehand, that you get up, tell us a little about it. I know, I mean, this is where fearlessness comes in. You turn up on the day, they've got a whole coterie of sort of actors,

they've asked me to do it. It's, you turn up on the day, you don't know, I don't know what it is, there's no script, there's no set, I know nothing about it. It's at the Soho place. I walk through the door in front of an audience, and then you just go on and experience. I have no idea what it is.

It's like an actor's worst nightmare. There's no script? I don't know anything about it. Do they give you a script when you get there? I get nothing. I know nothing. I'm going in blind. It's literally like that nightmare where you walk in front of a fully sold out audience.

I know nothing about it. It takes cojones. Why are you doing it? I like to push myself. You know, I went into this business because I wanted to have a diverse career. Well, you have it. And that was always what I wanted to do. And so for me to be able to play Chrissy Watson, EastEnders, to pop back to Shylock.

I've just done a Netflix thing to write another radio play to go on and do White Rabbit, Red Rabbit, you know, always pushing myself. And it's important for me. Otherwise, I think, what's the point of having a creative life, unless you're always sort of learning and doing new things? Well, it is wonderful to have you in and to hear about all the projects you're on. You actually give me an idea for a radio programme. That might be quite interesting. Is it called Woman's Hour? But also that you just start without any knowing who the guests are or what the scripts are.

I'm so pleased to be here because I was brought up with Woman's Hour. My mother always said it was the university education she never had a chance to have. And I love Woman's Hour, so I'm so pleased to be here. Well, we're so delighted to have you on. And welcome back back I should say and do come and visit us again. It'll be tonight

right? Oh yes you're in for fun. Oh god tonight on EastEnders indeed 7.30 BBC One or you can catch up on iPlayer. Also the Merchant of Venice 1936 will return to the West End this December and then a UK tour in the new year. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Thank you. Now, let me turn to some news you've probably been reading about tomorrow. Approximately 1,700 prisoners will be freed when the government's new early release scheme comes into effect. The new scheme called SDS40 will allow some prisoners who have completed a minimum of 40% of their sentence to be released early. This is the first time the automatic release point has dropped below 50%. Justice Secretary Shabana Mahmood has said she's responding to prison

overcrowding with capacity at 99% and to fears the justice system could grind to a halt. Under STS-40, sentences for serious violent offences of four years or more and sex offences will automatically be excluded from the change, as will the

early release of offenders in prison for domestic abuse, connected crimes, which would include stalking and choking. However, concerns have been raised by the Domestic Abuse Commissioner that there are no measures in place to prevent domestic abusers being released who are convicted of broader offences

that are not specific to domestic violence. I'm joined now by Andrea Coomer, KC, Chief Executive of the Howard League for Penal Reform, which campaigns for prison reform. Welcome, Andrea. Hi, Nola. Good to have you with us. So tell people, I laid out a little bit there about the government's plans. What else should people know? I mean, I think that the key thing is that this is a measure that's really being forced to deal with. It's an extraordinary measure, as you've said,

and an imperfect measure, frankly, because it's only come at quite short notice, to deal with a crisis that has been a long time coming and that is acute. So we have basically run out of prison spaces in this country. And in order to have enough capacity for the courts to sentence people who need to be incarcerated for a period of time for public protection, they're having to do this. So it's a perfect storm of bad conditions, really, because we have prisons overcrowded, we have probation already overstretched. These people who are in prison,

our prison population, are mostly locked in their cells all day, every day, with insufficient support. So we do have a kind of disaster. And this is one of the ways the government... So you do agree that there is a big issue. But you know, some charities are calling this early release scheme a short term fix. Would you agree with that? It's undoubtedly a short term fix. What is a longer term option? I mean, is there something that you would be pushing for? Yeah, there are lots of things. I mean, the key thing about this situation is that it's been 20 years in the making. So sentences have been getting just longer and longer. And there was a report by some judges, senior judges that came out last Friday that we supported, talking about how sentences have doubled across the board for all kinds of offences over the last

20 years. And when successive governments of different colours pursue policies like that, they've failed to consider the consequences of putting people in prison and then just not releasing them. And this is the consequence. This is the chickens coming back to roost. It's interesting, though, because I've done many programmes where people instead have had issues with people getting out on probation too early. Let us talk specifically, perhaps, about some of the exemptions that there are with this

that I briefly alluded to, because there's questions of whether they go far enough to protect women. Nicole Jacobs, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner, said survivors of domestic violence were, I quote, paying the price for the overcrowding crisis. She's concerned that despite the government's best efforts, domestic abusers will be among those that are least causing victims sleepless nights. Would you agree with that? I do agree with the characterisation.

I mean, the exclusions that apply, apply to those offences where domestic abuse has been a key part of the index offence. But there will be people where the gendered aspect, who are being released, where the gendered aspect of the offence is not at the forefront. And therefore, so arson, for example, or some assault, which wasn't recognised at the time as being domestic in nature, but will have an impact on families. So I think that is right.

And there's a worry, obviously, that these people haven't necessarily had the interventions when they've been in prison because the prison overcrowding has meant they've just been locked in their cells and they're being released tomorrow, a lot of them, into a probation service because every single one of these people is under the supervision

of probation that's coming out tomorrow. Yes, but then the question is whether there are the probation services, the officers available. There's not. I mean, that's the truth. And I think that's, again, what Nicole Jacobs has kind of alluded to, because we're directly moving a burden from prisons to a burden onto probation.

And it's welcome that the government said that they're going to recruit 1,000 new probation officers, but there's too much work for the ones we already have. Let me read a little of the statement we received from a Ministry of Justice spokesperson. Prisons are in crisis and the new government has been forced into taking difficult but necessary action so we can keep locking up dangerous criminals

and protect the public. We've excluded a range of violent and domestic abuse-related offences from these changes and will also recruit over 1,000 new trainee probation officers by March 2025 to meet additional demand. Do you expect them to follow through on that? We do expect them to follow through. They're not going to be able to maintain

the criminal justice system if they don't because the burden is now moving on to probation. And the prisons will keep on filling up is the truth. So in a year's time, this measure is only going to last for about a year, and we'll be back in this position on the precipice. So what is it you're calling for then, as a long term? I know you talk about the sentences getting longer. But of course, we've often heard victims that feel that they're not at times harsh enough or implemented for the full duration. I mean, there are a few things. So one is that about one fifth of the men in prison and about a quarter of women in prison are on remand. So most of those people, so that means they're being held to a waiting trial or a waiting sentence. So that's 20% nearly of people in prison.

Of them, most of them will be given a non-custodial sentence or will be acquitted because they're innocent. So that is a much easier way of getting down the remand population. So what would you say for those people on remand should be at home? A lot of those people could be at home on tag if need be for public protection or could just be released on their own reconnaissance. Because a lot of them, as I've said, go on to get to be found acquitted or to get non-custodial sentences anyway. And so that would be one quick way of dealing with the crisis.

And then there does need to be a review, as the judges have called for last Friday, of sentences and the inflated sentences. And has there been a discussion about potentially on remand prisoners instead to take that path that you outline instead of being caught up in the prison population as a whole? That's something we're talking to the government about. And any response? Not yet. This government is obviously new. But this is something that they're, you know, actually taking steps on very quickly. Yeah, they could take steps on it quickly. I mean, a lot of people who go to prison on remand don't have bail packages. They don't have access to lawyers. We're particularly concerned about them because they have very high rates of self-harm and suicide.

And as I said, a lot of them are innocent people. Let us talk about women specifically as prisoners. There are comparatively few women in prison. How would you describe the crimes they tend to be in prison for and how long their sentences might be if there's possible to give a general? Yeah, so I guess the easiest way to describe it is that there are more women in prison for theft than there are for violence against the person, fraud, sexual offences, robbery, drugs, motor offences put together. I mean, that is all of those other offences put together. You still have more women who are in prison for theft than all of those other things put together. So theft is overwhelmingly the most common offence

and 72% of women in prison are in for non-violent offences because they're acquisitional offences and mostly short sentences. How many women in prison compared to men? Oh, gosh, there are 3,656 women last week and about 84,500 men. So it's a tiny slither of the prison population. six women last week and about 84,500 men. So it's a tiny slither of the prison population. But in our view, the vast majority of those women shouldn't be in prison at all.

Why? Because they have vulnerabilities that have led to their offending. Prison, most of them are in for short sentences, less than six months even, less than 12 months. And that's about enough time to be able to disrupt your family life, your housing, your employment. It's not enough time to have any interventions that are in any way helpful for people who need it. They are much better served to serve their sentences in the community with the Women's Centre, where they can get the support

they need to move away from those factors that are moving them into the criminal justice system. So there are very few women in prison who've committed violence and we've had Chrissy on, Tracey Ann Oatman on, there are very few women in prison comparatively who've committed those kind of offences. Andrea, I'm just thinking of a couple of stories. One, you know, a lot of anger at the theft that has taken place, be it shoplifting or whatever, within society. People feeling that it is not being dealt with severely enough, that those that are the perpetrators are not punished harshly enough. I'm thinking women are probably in that. They are, yeah.

And also others that say maybe men and women should not be treated differently. Your answer to those two aspects, please. I mean, I think there are a few things. One is that you have to look at why people commit crime. And I mean, the thing that we all want is for people to come out of prison and to not re-offend. We all want to stop crime. And prison does not stop crime. It stops crime for as long as somebody is actually locked up in a prison cell.

So we're good at punishing people, but we're not good at rehabilitating people. And I know we're talking, you know, we can go across the gamut of crimes, but just what's coming to mind as you're speaking is the riots where they immediately imprison people to be a deterrent. Yeah. I mean, what's interesting is that there's no evidence that long sentences are a deterrent. What is a deterrent is getting caught.

So swiftness of justice and certainty that you're going to get caught is what prevents people from offending. And when you have low chances of getting caught, and I think that was the interesting thing about the riots is that the system forced some people very quickly into court. So let's remind ourselves that in the Crown Court, there are actually backlogs of years. But in those cases, they put it through to be able to send a message that if you engage in this kind of behaviour, that that will... And that's about swiftness of justice and certainty of justice. And that was true for the writers.

That is not true for society at large or for crime at large. But not for women who are shoplifting, for example? No, I mean, a lot of women who are shoplifting end up getting remanded to custody, frankly. I mean, I was in one prison a year ago and a woman who was eight months pregnant had been remanded to custody for burglary. And you do look at that and think,

well, what is the point of that? You know, somebody like that would much better be served back in the community on a tag, for example. And that is a woman who is pregnant, which, of course, is one discussion within this. But coming back to my previous point, do you think men and women should be treated differently when it comes to the law? I think you need to look at, I mean, we would also stop short sentences for men as much as for women. So there are definitely men who have the same vulnerabilities that a lot of women have. You would stop short sentences?

We would stop short sentences altogether, yes. I mean, have a presumption against short sentences. There'll be some people who have repeatedly breached community orders who've shown that they're not able to behave themselves in a community environment or in a suspended environment who will probably end up back in prison. But yeah, we would support Alex Chalk, the last government's proposal to get rid of short sentences because the vast majority of people who come out of prison after a short sentence, 75% of women come out after a short sentence, will re-offend. And it's much, if you've got a community sentence or a suspended sentence, you're much less likely to re-offend. Because I'm just thinking with the short sentence, coming back to the riots again,

if that works, that short, swift as a deterrent. Well, the shortness and swiftness was not about the sentence, though. That was about how quickly somebody got to a courtroom and was shown that you're going to get caught. Yes, that was about the process. That's about the intervention of getting caught. And that's what stops people. You know, this is a crime. What you're doing is not some kind of OK civil disobedience.

It is criminal. people, you know, this is a crime. What you're doing is not some kind of okay civil disobedience. It is criminal. And I think that was when we saw those early trials, it was pretty clear that some of these men didn't even understand that what they were doing was really a crime. The prison's minister, James Timpson, before he was part of government said that only a third of prisoners should be in prison, specifically that prison is a disaster for women. I think you're outlining that you agree with some of that. But I'm wondering, could you foresee a time when women are not given prison sentences? I would certainly like to see a time when there's a presumption

against custodial sentences for women, yes, because you need to treat the causes of people's offending. You need to see why they're coming into contact with the criminal justice system. And it's nearly 20 years ago since Baroness Causton did her sort of big review, the Causton Report, on women in the criminal justice system. And at the time, she said there's never been more evidence of anything than there is of the fact that prison doesn't work for women. And yet, we now have more women in prison every year. And it's projected that we'll have ever more women in prison in the next two years. So we've got 3,500 today. We're expected to have 4,800 government's projections in three years' time. And I keep coming back to the riots, but I suppose it's because it was such an illustration, in a way, in the public's recent memory of what happened on this criminal level.

And there were women involved in that too. But you don't think they, or do you think they should be treated differently to the men that were caught up in the riots because of their backgrounds? No, I don't think the women should be treated differently from the men. But I think that that goes to show, I mean, the vast majority of people were men, but there were some women and, frankly, some children who were caught up in it. So we wouldn't propose that the women be treated

in those circumstances for equal crimes differently. But you do need to consider when sentencing the whole of somebody's experience, whether they were involved in... Women are often engaged in crime at the behest of men, not necessarily in the case of riots, but often as part of a kind of family enterprise, which they don't really have a chance to disengage from

because of their reliance on men involved. So we know that women in prison have really high rates of poor mental health. We know that they have high rates of having been victims of domestic violence. More than 50% of women disclose that. So presumably there are more women. And they do have all these vulnerabilities that really need to be taken into account.

Well, we shall see how the new government deals with some of the issues that you've raised there, Andrea. That's Andrea Coomber, KC, Chief Executive of the Howard League for Penal Reform, which campaigns for prison reform. Thanks very much for coming in to us. Thank you. Let me turn to Rebecca Middleton next. She was in her late 30s when she was diagnosed with a brain aneurysm. It's a condition that is believed to be more common in women than men. And in Rebecca's case, it was hereditary.

In fact, familial brain aneurysm syndrome can affect as many as 320,000 people in the UK. Rebecca lost her grandmother and also her mother to the condition and that led her to also doing genetic testing for it. She has since had successful surgery to remove the aneurysm and has also created the charity Hereditary Brain Aneurysm Support to help other people that are going through it. Welcome Rebecca. Good morning. Good to have you with us. I mean we hear brain aneurysm mentioned in headlines, but what is it exactly? Yes, it's a funny word, isn't it? Brain aneurysm is a weak and bulging area in an artery in a brain.

And it's often described as a very thin balloon coming off one of the main arteries in the brain. And because the walls are weak and thin then it's at risk of rupturing and if an aneurysm ruptures then it causes a very serious type of stroke called a serap... I can't say it... seraparacnoid hemorrhage which is the third most common subtype of stroke and sadly a quarter, approximately a quarter of patients with this kind die before they reach hospital. Usually there are no symptoms of unruptured aneurysms, you can't feel them and they often sit there causing no problems and it's only when they burst or they rupture that they become dangerous putting your brain and your life at risk. The vast majority

are sporadic that means that they're one-off events and there's no genetic link or pattern in families but researchers do believe that around about 16% of patients could have a strong history meaning that there is a genetic or hereditary link and in these cases patients are diagnosed with familial brain aneurysm syndrome as I was. So you were, and tell me a little bit, I'm so sorry for the loss of your grandmother and your mother from this. It wasn't something expected or they didn't know familial links at that point? Not at that point. I suppose my story started around about 15 years ago with the sudden and tragic death of my mother from a brain aneurysm just a few days before her 60th birthday. I was living and working in Germany at the time and I was very close to my mom and spoke to her at least twice a day.

And one evening I called her up after a long day at work to discuss her 60th birthday party plans, but couldn't get through and thought, oh gosh, that's a bit funny. And then my sister called a little time later to tell me what had happened and that I needed to jump on a plane and fly home just as soon as I could. Unfortunately, mum didn't last 24 hours, but I did manage to get home just in time to say goodbye before we switched off her life support machine and it was so utterly devastating she was well she was happy then all of a sudden like a balloon bursting it popped and our lives changed forever and instead of organising a 60th birthday party we were organising mum's funeral.

But we carried on as best we could. We picked up the pieces. And it was only five years later when my uncle, my mum's brother, had died again very suddenly and unexpectedly of an aortic aneurysm burst. And once again, we made our way very quickly to the hospital to say our goodbyes. We thought, oh gosh, what's going on here there's that word again and it was at my uncle's funeral that my sister and my cousins were all sat around discussing this strange aneurysm word and the devastation that it caused in our families and we were also aware of other family members who had aortic aneurysms and other vascular system symptoms that another uncle wandered over to us and said,

well, Rebecca, you do know that your grandmother died of a brain haemorrhage. And we were all just shocked and silent. She died at the age of 34. She was eight months pregnant at the time. So she died and the baby died. And it happened in the 1960s. So it's perhaps one of those tragic times family didn't really want to talk about we thought or knew it was something to do with blood pressure but then we realized there it

is again that word so we knew that we needed to go forward and do some further research about what actually was going on in our family and uncover what was going on. And that's when I decided to undergo screening myself. And you did and they took a wait and see approach until it wasn't wait and see anymore. It was you need brain surgery, which you underwent and I'm really glad made a full recovery from. But this is something that runs in the maternal line and you do have daughters yourself. And there may be some of our listeners as well who may be concerned about it for example but I'm wondering how do you speak to your daughters about it without frightening the life out of them to be quite frank? Yes it's hard when

I underwent my surgery my my youngest was just one and my eldest was only five so finding the words was tricky. So we described it as a bubble in mummy's brain and that we were going to fix the bubble so it wouldn't cause any problems. But it's really, really hard to discuss within families about, do we have a cluster? Is there a pattern? And that's why, you know, at Hereditary Brain Angiostomy Support, we've put together patient guides to help patients learn and get those words to describe what is happening in their families and. And there are misunderstandings of, well, was it a stroke?

Or was it a haemorrhage? Or was it this? Or was it that? And you need to put these pieces of the jigsaw together. And when you can, then you discover that there is a picture that perhaps needs some further exploration. And it's something that can, is it a condition that affects women more than men?

But I want to thank you very much. You've created HBA that is going to get people the information that you felt you were lacking as you went on your health journey. But I'm so glad that you are well. That is Rebecca Middleton, who is talking to us about brain aneurysms. And her charity is Hereditary Brain Aneurysm Support

to help other people going through it. An NHS spokesperson says that the NHS is delivering record numbers of diagnostic tests and the latest published figures show the NHS staff has delivered more than 2.3 million tests in June, up more than a fifth on the same month pre-pandemic. It says, yes, we know people are waiting for scans with more than a quarter of patients waiting more than six weeks. We're committed to working with the government to create a 10 year plan for health that includes a clear plan to bring those weights down, which, of course, people talk about when they also talk about getting a screening. I want to turn to the Paralympics now, however.

Paris 2024. It concluded with a sparkling closing ceremony in the lashings of rain. Poppy Meskell and Matt Bush were Great Britain's flag bearers for the ceremony. GB were represented in 19 sports, winning medals in 18 of them. That's quite something, isn't it? And Paralympics at GB, they finished second in the medal table behind China with 124 medals. Let's go through the numbers. 49 goals, 44 silvers, 31 bronzes. And before the Games began, you might remember,

I spoke to Paralympian-turned-broadcaster Rachel Latham, who talked us through the women we should look out for. Very helpful. And she joins me now to talk about the successes and the legacy. Great to have you back with us, Rachel. How have you been over the past couple of weeks what was the standout for you oh i mean i absolutely loved it as you say i'm a former paralympian so the paralympics is kind of it's the pinnacle of um sporting highlights for me

um i've had to after having competed in beijing in 2008 and then worked on every summer game since. So yes, I mean, I loved it. I think my first standout, and you've already alluded to her there, Poppy Maskell. I mean, 19 years old and she won the first medal for Paralympics GB on the ground out in Paris. To give you a bit of background on Poppy, so she's an S14 swimmer. So her disability is for people with intellectual impairments. She won five gold medals, sorry, five medals in total, three of them gold out in Paris. That was the most that any Paralympics GB athlete has won. You just look at her and you think, how do you achieve so much for a 19-year-old? And not only her age, but this is the first time she's been to a Paralympic Games. So she's showcased her physical abilities to be able to compete, but also the mental strength to hold a nerve at a first Games and still come out on top.

And then, you know, just to top it it all off be able to carry the flag for Great Britain in that closing ceremony what a special moment for the young athlete and for you know her friends and family to witness that too. You talk about last night I enjoyed watching it it was lashing rain you know they had fireworks going off that didn't stop them I noticed Dame Sarah Storey having a bit of a boogie as well she She was like upbraving on one of the stands. That is the British cyclist and swimmer, of course. An amazing achievement. You were saying, will she do it at 46?

Yes, she won another two golds, bringing her total to 30 Paralympic medals, including 19 gold medals. What a woman. I mean, absolutely. I've known Sarah since I was 10 years old, and she really is the real-life superwoman that she comes across on television when you watch her in the Paralympic Games. the sport for over 30 years and still putting on thrilling races. To be fair, it was probably one of the closest races I've ever seen her in, you know, two road races and both sprint finishes with Heidi Gauguin from France. And she's only 19 years old. And to be able to keep up with her and

push ahead right to the end and put on such a show was one of the best things I think about the Paralympics and you know what I've got a feeling that might be the last Paralympics we see her in I'm not claiming her retirement I'm just saying after watching her for so many years looking at her career now could be the time for her to say I've achieved everything there is to achieve I mean she's won 19 goals I know 20 would be a magic number and but to do it in Paris in front of her children Charlie her youngest son it's the first time he's ever been able to watch her at a Paralympic Games unable to go to Tokyo last year The first person she hugged as she went across that line and cycled over to was her daughter Louisa. Having that opportunity to share this with them.

The next Games being over in the US, you know, being on the West Coast with the time difference, it will be a very different Games. And I want to talk about them actually, because we've just a few minutes left. I want to give a shout out, of course, to Jodie Grinham, who was the first Paralympic athlete, heavily pregnant, archery. She won gold. Love all that. We had her on. We wish her well. But I want to talk about the games that will take place in L.A. And there was some saying that the United States, you know, hasn't done brilliantly in the past, shall we say, when it came to Paralympic Games. How do you understand it and what are you expecting? OK, so a country most of the time knows about seven years prior to hosting an Olympic or Paralympic Games.

You have this real good run up to get ready for a Games. So I was 15 when it was announced we were going to have London, and I saw how Paralympics changed over that seven-year build-up to really change perception of disability in this country and increase the profile. Can the US do the same? It is a big question on everyone's lips, especially now as we've just had the closing ceremony. So I lived in the US for four years and I did see that the Paralympics and disability sport in

general, and to be honest, just people with disabilities in general, aren't seen in the same way that we see here in the UK. Just things like language, the way that's used and intentionally or not it can still be very behind the times personally I think to kind of change perception of disability there are two big things that somebody needs it's education and exposure and that then creates empathy so instead of having that sympathy of oh you know isn't this really great? They've done that, even though they're disabled. It's that, oh, I understand what this sport is about. I understand that it's elite level sport in the best way in the pinnacle of careers we saw back in London 2012 that Channel 4 was able to do this for the British athletes and for the public NBC are wanting to do the same so they have started in Paris they did put on more Paralympic sport across the US than they ever have done

before. And they are wanting to increase that further. And I know it's only TV, but at the end of the day, television is a great way for us to be able to authentically represent different minority groups within the media. So disability, like any other minority group, people want to see themselves represented. And whether that's in TV dramas or whether that is watching sports on television, it creates role models, it increases self-belief, and most importantly, it normalizes differences.

So anybody that is at home watching the Games, whether they want to be a Paralympic athlete or not, if they have a disability, it gives them that belief that they can go on and do it. And OK, it may look a little bit different, but they are still achieving. And also the people around them, society, they have that belief as well.

And I know we did it in London and I really hope that they can do it in LA as well. Just seeing Channel 4's Paralympics coverage pulled in more than 18 million viewers. Rachel Latham, thank you so much for speaking to us. Enjoy the afterglow of the Paralympics and we'll chat to you again soon.

Do want to let you know about tomorrow's Send Focus programme live from the BBC Radio Theatre. We'll be discussing how children with special educational needs and disabilities, or SEND as it's called in England, are supported in school. It's all about those children and young people who need extra support to learn.

They all have a legal right to an education like any other child. We have Kelly Bright, who's a mum to a child with SEND. She's an EastEnders actress. We have Katie, who's a 17-year-old who said she was failed by SEND. And the Minister for School Standards, Catherine McKinnell. Do join me 10am tomorrow right here. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

From BBC Radio 4 comes Doe, examining the business behind profitable everyday products and what they might be like in the future. I'm the entrepreneur, Sam White. In each episode, I focus on things like TVs, hair dryers or vacuum cleaners, hearing firsthand from people who make them. We still make products with DVD player built in. You would be very surprised how many we sell. Then our expert guests choose their favorite game changing innovations, which shape the products in the past before we follow the money to where they're going next.

Think of the TV, 98-inch or 100-inch. Doe makes the mundane marvellous again. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.