Woman's Hour - Angela Rayner fallout, Do we need to take creatine? Papua New Guinea

Episode Date: September 8, 2025

The fallout from Angela Rayner's departure continues to dominate the headlines today as Labour's National Executive Committee is expected to meet to agree the timetable for the race to replace Rayner as the party's deputy leader. Since the reshuffle, women fill three of the four great offices of state for the first time, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Home Secretary, and the Foreign Secretary. To discuss the role of women in Labour’s reshuffled cabinet and the party's future leadership - as well as Rayner's legacy - Nuala McGovern is joined by Lucy Dunn, political correspondent at The Spectator, and Rachel Cunliffe, Associate Political Editor at The New Statesman   As the 50th anniversary of Papua New Guinea's independence from Australia approaches later this month, we hear why the country is currently one of the most dangerous places in the world to be a woman. Two-thirds of women in PNG have experienced some form of sexual violence in their lifetime, which is almost twice the global average. Tahina Booth is a former elite athlete and founder of Grass Skirt Project who is trying to break the cycle of gender-based violence through sport. Tahina joins Nuala along with Joku Hennah, a journalist and activist who regularly speaks out about all forms of gender-based violence - including domestic and sexual violence, and killings related to sorcery accusations.   Playwright Danusia Iwaszko has spent 17 years running writing workshops in high-security prisons. Her new play Penned Up draws on that work, following a teacher who helps a group of men find their voices through theatre. Over the course of the 10-week programme we see the humanity in these inmates, as well as the cracks in our criminal justice system.   You may have seen articles and social media posts branding creatine supplements as the ‘secret weapon’ for women, claiming they can ‘boost brainpower’, and ‘level up’ our lives, especially during the menopause or perimenopause. But what is creatine? Should we all be taking it - and what impact might it have? To find out more, Nuala is joined by GP Dr Fionnuala Barton and registered dietician Laura Clarke, who specialises in the menopause.   Presented by: Nuala McGovern Produced by: Sarah Jane Griffiths

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts. Hello, this is Newell O'Moghren, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, and welcome to the programme. Well, it was a bumper weekend of women's sports. Whether you're a women's rugby or a football or a tennis fan, you'd a ton of opportunities to be wowed. We're going to get a round-up this hour with Matt Gravelling from BBC Sport. And you'll know it was also a very busy weekend.

for politics too, with a woman at the centre of the storm. You will know, of course, Friday afternoon it was when Angela Rainer resigned as Deputy Prime Minister, Deputy Labour Party Leader and Housing Secretary. That was after failing to pay enough tax on a flat she had bought. So what does that mean this Monday morning as the Labour Party's National Executive Committee meet to look ahead? Well, after the Cabinet reshuffle, three of the four great offices of state are now held by women. Will the deputy labour leader also be a woman again? Lucy Dunn, Rachel Cunleff coming up in discussion. Also, we have the playwright and director, Danusha Ivashko.

She will be in the Woman's Hour studio. She has spent 17 years teaching prisoners how to write plays. We're going to hear about her experience and why she puts herself in what many would consider a dangerous and potentially vulnerable position. And I want to know, do you feel bombarded by supplements that you should take to perhaps increase bone density, alleviate brain fog, alleviate tiredness.

Well, maybe creatine has made its way onto your social media feeds or your conversations. Originally for elite athletes, it's now something that we're told women may need to take, particularly during perimenopause or menopause. But is it necessary? We will find out. And we'll travel 9,000 miles to Papua New Guinea to hear from two women who are working to break the silent

cycle of gender-based violence on the South Pacific Island. It does affect two-thirds of the women who live there. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or voice note, use the number 0-3-700-100-444 on any of the issues

you'd like to comment on during our program. But let's turn to the fallout from Angela Rainer's departure. It does continue to dominate the headlines today, Labor's National Executive Committee, or NEC, is expected to meet to agree the timetable for the race to replace Rainer as the party's deputy leader. Now, since the reshuffle for the first time, women fill three of the four great offices of state, as I mentioned. So that's the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Home Secretary and the Foreign Secretary,

to discuss the role of women in Labor's future leadership, as well as Angela Rainer's legacy from the Employment Rights Bill to Opportunities for Young Families I'm joined by Lucy Dunn who's political correspondent at The Spectator also Rachel Cunliffe Associate Political Director at the New Statesman good morning to both of you

Let us take a moment thinking about Angela Rainer a woman at the top of British politics of course so much was expected of even going forward Mani will be aware the former deputy prime minister her career was very much informed by her own experience

of becoming a mother at the age of 16. What do you think has been lost or what some people might say gained by her departure? Perhaps I'll start with you, Lucy. Yeah, I think that Angela Rayner's departure on Friday has left a lot of people on the left of the Labour Party membership feeling maybe quite demoralised.

I think that Rainer had quite a talent in being able to come across as a person of the people could reach out to a number of different communities partly because of her own background and partly because she just didn't have that kind of corporate and, you know, restrained, it's almost like

sort of a political personality that we tend to see. She was someone who just felt quite natural and sort of quite easy going and I think people quite respected that actually and I think that as a result of this it's going to be a lot of, I think, sort of frustration in many ways that's the direction the party

is going. I think there's going to be a lot of scrutiny on for example who the next deputy labour leader will be, whether it will be someone like Angela Wainer who had the ability to really draw in the soft left and the left wing of the party and whether or not someone further to the left of Rainer will come in and potentially cause problems for Starm. But certainly I think it's a loss in the sort of degree that I think that, yeah, there's a lot of young people, especially young women who would have looked up to someone like Angela Wainer and thought that, well, if she can do that, if she can take that type of success and get to one of the highest offices in the country,

then, you know, the opportunities are there for everyone. Rachel, I'd like your thoughts. I'm also curious about what Lucy raised there. Is there anybody like Angela Rainer? Well, Angela Rainer's personal story, which we've been hearing a lot about in the wake of her resignation really is astonishing and is worth repeating. As has been mentioned, she left school when pregnant at 16.

She was raised on a council estate. Her mother couldn't read or write as a child. Rainer was actually a carer for her mother. and care. Care work is deeply ingrained in her childhood, her early career and her politics. Obviously, she worked as a care worker after having her first child and became a union rep. And that was how she worked her way up through the union movement, through the Labour Party, into politics, and then to one of the highest officers in the land. And you can't really separate those two things. her experience and her experience of some of the core policy areas where any government

might be seeking to make progress, but she was actually somebody who really experienced it at the sharp end all the way through to her politics, her relationship with the unions, her thinking on education, on work, on women in power. And also this word that always comes up about Angela Raina, which is authenticity. She is very authentic. I've spoken to her. The version of Angela Rona that you see on the TV or in interviews and speaking to her firsthand, it's the same and her ability to relate to people that perhaps other politicians that they might have the best intentions struggle to relate in that way. Is there anyone who fills that exact role now in the Labour Party? She's got a very unique story. There are lots of very

capable people up and coming and I'm sure we'll be discussing some of the runners and riders for the deputy leadership contest ongoing. But that kind of personal challenge narrative from teenage mother to deputy prime minister know that there isn't anyone who matches that. So we will talk about it in a moment who may take on some of those roles. But the fact that she left in the way that she did, she admitted that she underpaid tax after buying a flat in Hove. She has been associated with the workers' rights bill.

There's quite a bit of that in the newspapers this morning as well and speculation that it could be watered down if she's not in that powerful position. Lucy, do you think that will happen? Well, certainly the unions are worried about it and I think we've heard across the video this morning across the papers that there are huge concerns about the fact that both Angela Rainer and Justin Madders

who was the employment minister are no longer in government in those roles. And I think that there certainly is this reshvel has shown there's a change in direction. There's not going to be a continuity when you look at the cabinet, when you look at the wider government. Certainly the workers' rights bill was something that was really tied to Angela Wainer. She did really champion ensuring that there'd be more protections, particularly for women as well in the workplace, pregnant women, those who had just become new mothers and also those going through menopause. So certainly I can understand

why there would be a concern there. Starmer has said that he remains committed to the bill as it stands. But yeah, essentially it's always worrying when you have a champion of, you know, rights, workers' rights, of any kind of issue. And then they get moved on, you know, other people have got different priorities. And ultimately, this government seems most concerned at the moment about trying to drive growth and tackling immigration as opposed to the other types of things that people across the country might be concerned about too. There was, of course, the announcement of Deputy Prime Minister with David Lamy there, but the role of deputy leader of the Labour Party is vacant. I was hearing Harriet Harmon

told the Today programme earlier this morning that the new Deputy Labour leader must be a woman. Rachel, your thoughts on that? Well, it would be awkward, should we say, for Labour if it wasn't. You mentioned that the three of the great officers of state

now held by women. Obviously, Labour has never had a female leader and I think many people in the Labour Party are painfully aware of that, whereas the Conservatives obviously have had several. But the Contest to be deputy leader of Labor will be really, really fascinating. Already there are some serious names floating around, some serious names of women.

Shabana Mahmoud, who obviously is one of the big winners from the cabinet reshuffle, who's moved from Justice Secretary to Home Secretary. That would be quite good for Keir Stama. She's a close ally of Stama. Emily Thornbury has mentioned that she's considering it. She obviously was one of the few people in Stama's shadow cabinet, not to make it into a role in government last July and I believe has some strong feelings still about this. And the other one I think that's worth mentioning is Louise Hay, who was obviously

transport secretary, who had to resign after revelations about a past criminal conviction last year. And she's actually written for the new statesman this morning suggesting, encouraging Labor, the government to rethink its fiscal rules and for Rachel Reeves to get a bit more flexible on spending. Now, that's not in itself a suggestion that she's running for Labour leadership, but it's a pretty strong message to the government about the direction that she thinks it ought to be going in. And obviously, she comes from a tradition within the Labour Party more associated with the soft left than the Blair right wing, for example. And that's more similar to the tradition that Angela Raina came from. Yes, I did see it. An economic reset is what

she's looking for. Well, let's continue to talk about some of the other women, Lucy. that I suppose are in the spotlight since this newly reshuffled cabinet. At the top, we talked about the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Home Secretary and the Foreign Secretary taking those roles. How do you see that, the optics of it, even from a distance? Yeah, I think what's interesting is that it's a big story that's come out of this reshuffle is about the Home Office. So we've got a new Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmoud,

who's seen to be quite an effective politician. She's made some tough calls when she was Justice Secretary. And she's also got the backing of the sort of blue labour kind of crowds in the party, so popular amongst the right. But, you know, at the same time, their hearts of junior ministers have also seen a reshuffle. So Angela Eagle, Diana Johnson are out of the home office. Now there's a new policing minister, Sarah Jones, Mike Tapp, sort of MP for Dover. He is seen as being very strong on immigration.

His rhetoric has been lauded by those who maybe be more critical of Labour's position on the borders in the past. So, yeah, it's certainly a statement of intent when you look at how the Home Office has been redesigned in a sense. I suppose that's as a positive story when you look at the other movements. You know, Yvette Cooper, very longstanding Labour politician. She's still on a very good job as a foreign secretary. David Lamies have been demoted as a result of her moving into that role. But, you know, it's potentially a saying that things weren't really going that smoothly. And in the Home Office when she was in charge, I think she was struggling with communication-wise with the government, with number 10,

but also with the Treasury as well, and so in many ways that's been a move as I think tensions are really ramping up around the immigration rhetoric. And we've also seen Liz Kendall move from the Department of Working Pensions after that welfare shambles that led to Rachel Reeves in parliamentary and PMQ's having quite a sort of emotional experience. And I think that, yeah, it's certainly interesting to see that those kind of movements. It looks as though this is very much a change of direction as opposed to continuity government. of course, before Angela Rainer was in the headlines, and it continues to be very much about immigration. Rachel, speaking about women ministers, you'll remember the reports in March about around the cabinet.

Some of the women ministers said they had been subject to leaks and briefings against them. Many of the women reportedly subject to those briefings where Rachel Reeves, Bridget Phillips and Lisa Nandi have remained in the cabinet. How do you understand it? Interesting, isn't it, that some of the names that we were heard were definitely going to be up for the chop and the next cabinet reshuffle have remained. Rachel Reeves' position is really interesting. I think the incident that we saw over the summer with her tears at PMQ's, the market jitters there and the Prime Minister having to come out and back her very, very clearly. I think from that point onwards, her position was secure at least until the upcoming budget, I think we'll have to consider her.

position after that in the wake of whatever is decided at that budget. And Bridget Philipson and Lisa Nandy were made. Now Lisa Nandi is, again, part of that soft left tradition, somebody who comes from the same sort of branch of a Labour Party as Angela Raina and is seen similarly as having a perspective able to liaise with unions, able to relate to people in some of those areas where Labor is particularly worried about the threat of reform. And Bridget Philipson, I think similarly, one of Labor's flagship, or one of its missions, is on early years getting children ready for school

and making sure that the support for parents of small children is there. We've just had the rollout of free childcare, the expansion of free childcare, actually a conservative policy, but one that is being implemented under Bridgett Phillipson's watch. and it will also be in her remit to expand and drive forward the best start centres, which are essentially this Labour government's revival of the new Labour short start centres, which is something that Angela Rana was particularly passionate about having actually used those services herself when she was a teenage mother. So I think in that decision to keep Bridget Philipson where you are, you can see one of the priorities in terms of what do we have,

What does the government have to counter reform and the claims that actually there's lots of talk about growth, but what is actually going on to improve the lives of working people on the ground? Just before I let both of you go, she's 45 years of age, Angela Rainer. Do you think she'll be back? Rachel? Yes, absolutely. 100%. If not in this Parliament, then in the future.

Lucy? I'll agree with Rachel. I absolutely do think she'll be back. But I do think it'll be a wee bit of time before we see her in the front page. I did see her on one of the lists for a deputy. Labor leader that technically there's nothing to stop her standing, but I don't think that's going to happen. We'll continue following it. I want to thank both my guests starting itself this morning, Lucy Dunn and Rachel Cunliff. I'm talking about the women's bumper

weekend of sport. Hi, Nula. You mentioned the strong weekend. Let's give a mention to Ros Cantor, who has won second year running the Burgly Horse Trial's three-day event championship and she's pregnant. Amazing. Well, we've just given her a shout out. Thanks very much for that if you want to get in touch 84844. We are heading to Papua New Guinea next. It is approaching its 50th anniversary of independence just a little later this month and as it's known PNG in the South West Pacific Ocean is considered one of the most dangerous places in the world to be a woman. Here are some statistics. Two-thirds of women have experienced some form of sexual violence in their lifetime. That is twice the global average and the Prime Minister calling it an epidemic

Hena Joku is a journalist and activist who regularly speaks out about gender-based violence, including domestic and sexual violence and killings that are related to sorcery accusations. Dehina Booth is a former elite athlete and a founder of the Grassgirt Project. She's also trying to break the cycle of violence and this time through sport. They join me from Port Moresby, which is the capital. Welcome to Women's Hour, both of you. I really appreciate it. We don't get to speak to Papua New Guinea that often, so we're delighted to have to have.

have you. Let me start with you, Hannah. Why are the figures for gender-based violence so high? I think the figures we have for gender-based violence in Papua New Guinea are high because of multiple reasons. A lot of it is hidden behind what people allege is cultural. It's not. We also have the introduction of social media, technology. And I think my inset and attitude to the behavior of where women sit in society. And when we are mostly patriarchal, that tends to look at women not so much as lesser than men, but I think less important. And so our roles are always deemed to be domesticated and not so much professional.

And there is no one database that we have across the country that can solidify. and verify what our data and statistics are. And so it's organizations like Tajina, it's the government itself, it's CSOs that work in the space, human rights defenders, church network. And it's all fragmented right now. And so different beliefs contribute to different reasons why the statistics of GBV are quite high in Papua New Guinea.

Because in 2021, the parliament did issue 71 recommendations. recommendations to address various domestic violence issues and also gender equality issues. Have those recommendations been implemented? That is, four years ago. To my knowledge, I cannot accurately say if they have. I was present at the launch of the Shadow CEDA report that was put together by the civil society. Again, that had taken the country several years to do. The actual official report, the government is to produce. has not yet been done. And so I'm very unoptimistic that we have been able to tick off any of those

recommendations. So as it is for myself, I can't confidently say that we have checked off any of those boxes. But the Prime Minister, James Maripay, he has spoken out against violence against women. Yes, the government has. they do so mostly through the permanent parliamentary committee that was set up several years ago at which I also spoke at the launch as a survivor and where the government has been vocal through this avenue

again the I guess fragmentation with connectivity and where the relevant agencies can better work together is not as cohesive as it can be let me bring in Tahina here you started the grass skirt project because of violence you had encountered as a child. What are you trying to do? Tell us a little bit about it.

Thank you for having me on the show. Really what we're seeing and what I'm seeing is there are a lot of young men and boys and young girls and women that need spaces of healing, that need to be heard, that need to be understood. And sport is such a great unifier. where we can create these spaces and start opening up and having those really positive dialogues

because it changes their mindsets on what is okay behavior and what's not okay behavior, changing attitudes. And so sport is a really, really great way to do that. And something about our country too is that, you know, we have so many different cultures. you know, we've got over 850 languages, you know, so we need something that is able to bind us together

and create safer spaces for us to have these conversations and sport like art, like music is something, you know, that is enjoyable for everybody. So tell me, Tina, a little bit, what sport? How do you do it? Because boys are also taking part, I understand. Yes, so we work with any sport. But the main one that we do employ is our national game, which is rugby league,

which is played by girls and boys. Girls actually, you know, started officially playing and representing our country in 2017. But we've had rugby league, you know, since 1930s, which was actually brought in by Australia as a, like, the colonists back then, to segregate people. but you know we've taken it up as our own and we've made it into a really fun game that everybody loves to play and it's it's the way that we're able to engage men and boys because like we live in a very patriarchal society and so we need something where boys don't feel and men don't feel like they're being um singled out and so like it and another thing too so let's get into that though sorry tihina jay

interrupt you, but I'm really curious of how that plays out. So you have little boys or young men that are in the sport. What are they telling you and how are you combating that when it comes to patriarchal attitudes? Everybody that sees the programs that we run, they know that we're about men and women as equal. So it's not a surprise when they come to one of our programs or one of our events. They understand that there is a code of conduct that they have to abide by. And then from there, because they're aware of the different health programs, you know, that we offer or different partnerships that we have, whether it's with, you know, the tribal foundation or if it's with a hospital, they know that they're coming to learn about sport. They know they're coming to learn about good behavior and access resources if needed. And that's where it's the learning between the peers.

So it's kind of like sports the hook. And when we've got them captive, then they see all these other services that we have and they just attend. So what has changed in behavior that you've seen with the boys or girls who have been with you? With what we've been doing, it's been really interesting. We started off collecting sports equipment from Australia and bringing it back home. Then from there, did a few surveys. We realized we were giving all the equipment to.

sports coaches. From there we ask the sports coaches, what do you need? And they said we need access to gyms and training. Now, the sports coaches are the ones that have access to all the players. And so it's peer to peer learning. When we have young men come through, a lot of them, for example, don't understand that, you know, not getting consent and, you know, raping somebody is actually a criminal offence. And this is the first time for them to hear that. And so it's these types of discussions where they quickly realize, okay, that's actually illegal. One, I didn't know

that. Or two, I need to change. But that point that you bring up, I mean, it's just it will give so many of my listeners pause that they do not realize that rape is a criminal offence.

Explain to me why that would be. Yeah, in some communities where like teaching around teaching like consent, you know, how do you seek consent? How do you get consent? You know, cat calling, you know, as they say it in the West. Like, you know, we have a lot of that as well. And it's the way that it's played out is like, oh, you know, she likes it or she wants it.

You know, and our women, you know, are taught to either just ignore or, you know, don't engage. but when it's persistent and we don't know how to say no or we feel frightened or, you know, threatened. I mean, it's all about power and control at the end of the day and who has the power and control. And so, you know, it's a whole nation education piece that we're doing. Are you hopeful? I absolutely am. I have to be.

You know, I believe that, you know, if we create these safer circles and start at the grassroots and work with the coaches, you know, work with the churches, work with schools and their parents, absolutely, you know, we definitely can make a, you know, a print. And this is what I do. I love my work. I love working with young men and I love seeing, you know, the change in them. And when they realize that, you know, that they can absolutely, you know, be the leader that they want to be, yeah, they inform their mates. And that's how, you know, we grow these young leaders because they see others doing

it as well. Thank you both for joining us this morning, the athlete and founder of the Grass Skirt Project, Tahina Booth, we've just heard. And we also had journalist and activist Joku Hena, joining us from Papua New Guinea, just about a mere 9,000 miles away. Thanks so much. I want to know if you are struggling to juggle your friendships with everything else that life is throwing at you. I want to hear from you for a future Woman's Hour discussion on this. do you feel, for example, that you're stuck in a cycle of surface-level catch-ups that ultimately leave you craving more meaningful connection? So you're just getting down to what you did without actually sharing that time together.

Has friendship perhaps been forced down that ever-expanding to-do list? It's going down your list of priorities. Is scheduling face-to-face time with your friends starting to feel like it requires a logistics degree? Well, we want to hear about all your experiences and dilemmas. I know you have them. You can get in touch in the usual way. 84844, a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number again, 0-3-700-100-4-44. And social media at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website.

Tahina was talking about sports there, and she feels like the power of it. Well, I want to turn to the weekend for women's sports that many of you will have been watching. Maybe you watch the US Open final. Did you see Arena Sabalenko retained her US Open title? straight sets victory over Amanda and Isamova who also had a really interesting personal story going into that what about any of the opening matches of the WSL, the Women's Super League?

Arsenal, did you see this, the million dollar woman playing their new striker 20-year-old Olivia Smith they bought from Liverpool women for one million pounds this is a new record and we know also who has qualified for the quarterfinals of the women's rugby World Cup including Scotland, Ireland, and England to be played next weekend. Let us bring in Matt Gravelling joining us this morning.

A little bit to get through here, Matt. Good to have you with us. What a weekend of women's sport? Right. Shall we start with a bit of tennis, the US Open? Tell us about Arena Sabalenko. Why not? Sabalanka's a strange one for me because she's world number one

and she, of course, won in New York last year. But despite winning kind of more matches than any play, player on the tour. She was struggling in the Grand Slam finals. Of course, she lost out in the French, didn't she to Cocoa Gauth and then went in Australia. She lost out to Madison Key. So she was constantly nearly there and everyone was kind of wondering what's happening. Was it the nerves in the final stages of these matches, brought in another coach as well, which possibly steadied the ship a little bit. But of course, last night then in New York, we saw her get over the line in straight set 6376.

And I think for her probably relief more than kind of jubilation and you saw those scenes when she won, you know, dropped to her knees and some of the post-match interviews she kind of alluded to that she'd put her team through quite a lot. And so, yeah, it's a strange one. I think Zabalenko back on top of the world where really she belongs, but it's just been interesting in the last 12 months that she hasn't quite managed to get there. It's about, I think, her emotions, which I always find so fascinating

when it comes to sports stars. a lot of it is as psychological as it is physical. What about Amanda Anasimova? Well, let's talk about emotions because Amanda Anasimova for people who possibly only really watch Wimbledon rather than all tennis, they will know her very well, won't they? Because in the final against Igues Fiontec, she crumbled, really, didn't she? I think it's safe to say she choked.

She didn't get control of her emotions. And that is top-level sport, isn't it? And she was in tears in the post-match. And you felt for her, didn't you? You thought she's waited a whole life to get to this moment. And I remember vividly watching that thinking, does she come back from this? As a professional athlete, how can you come back from this?

But she did. And she actually avenged that defeat on the way to the final by beatings Fiontec in the quarterfinals. And then, you know, she still got defeated by the better player yesterday. But ultimately, you've got to say, she took the second set to the wire to a tie break. and she did look a very, very strong player. So, you know, runner up for her, only 24 years old, the American.

So very, very strong, big future to come. But for her, you know, mental strength showed a lot, I think, last night in New York. Yeah, rollercoaster. A really interesting personal story took time out and then came back. So one to watch. Okay, should we talk about a little bit of football? Anything standing out for you with the WSL? The WSL is back, isn't it?

It's still riding that wave of European success, which we have now for the second time in a row following that that's lioness winning against Spain. So it's back and good to see around 40,000 people in the Emirates last night for the opener, not last night, sorry, earlier in the weekend for the opener, which was, of course, Arsenal versus London City lionesses. Four one to Arsenal, probably the expected result, but I think the standout performance, as you'd hope when you paid a million pounds for a player, came from Olivia Smith and scored an absolute cracker cut inside outside the 18-yard box

and fired it into the top left-hand corner so you know you understand what that money has bought but it's a huge moment for the women's game really this price tag she came to Liverpool in 2023 for just 200,000 pounds and so it's you know five times that but breaking that one million pound mark for the first time we've got to go back to Trevor Francis in the men's game in 1979 so it's a long time ago but the women's game is catching up in that way

at quite a rate of knots in other sides it's going to be hard to look past Chelsea they've won the WSL nine of the last 11 years obviously they haven't got Emma Hayes at the helm anymore she's now managing in America with the national team

but I think it's very very hard to look past the blues and they of course beat one of the other potential rivals for the title, Man City, at the weekend so they've already kind of marked out their intent. For me, Chelsea or Arsenal, possibly this season. It's hard to look past Chelsea.

Right, let us move on to rugby. Wales are sadly out of the women's rugby World Cup. We did have some of the members of the team here at the beginning of just before really they went and they were so excited. But we do have Ireland, England and Scotland and

Scotland all in the quarterfinals. England, and Scotland, perhaps people will be watching that one. Poor Ireland got thrashed. I just, I mean, I think everybody knows that they probably will have heard it on the way in by New Zealand. What do you reckon? Where are you putting your money? If you were a betting man, that's all alleged. If I was a betting man, if I had a few pounds to spare, I don't think you can look past England on this one.

You know, they've unbeaten in 30 tests. They've scored more points than any other team during this tournament. They're top of the group. As you mentioned, Wales, bottom of the group, sadly didn't win a game at this tournament. But Scotland and Ireland through. England, Scotland's Sunday, 4pm, I think England will be too much for the Scots. I think they will come through. I think they will win that convincingly in the same way.

Despite a slow start, they really dominant against Australia at the weekend. So I think that the England team will be strong enough to get past Scotland. I think when you look at the other teams left in the tournament, the other people who top the other groups, of course, England, top of Group A, but you've got Canada, you've got New Zealand, you've got France. They were other group winners. I think they're going to be strong. New Zealand, South Africa on Saturday, 1pm is going to be a good one.

I think watch that with interest. but I just don't think you can look past a team like England at the moment. They've scored 32 tries up to this point in the tournament and the next highest is France with 26 and then Ireland on 13, Scotland 14. So, you know, it's quite a big difference and you could argue England had a different teams in the group

and that would have led to that outcome. But for me, this is on home soil, this is a tournament England after work. As you mentioned, 4 o'clock on Sunday, the 14th of September when England faces off against Scotland. Very exciting, I have to say, any of the matches that I have caught. And just the passion of the fans that have gone to see it, of course, all these records sold out crowds as well. It has been a great weekend and a women's summer of sports.

The names will be made as the campaign is across BBC Sport. Matt, thanks so much for joining us, Matt Gravelling. Thank you. Right. I want to move on instead to playwriting. Here's a question. Would you find the prospect of being left unsupervised in a room full of inmates at a high security prison, a little daunting? Well, my next guest, playwright and director, Dan Ushah Ivasko,

has been doing that for 17 years. And she's put that experience into her new play penned up, which follows Dorota, a playwright and teacher, instructing a class of inmates to write their own plays and in turn discover the power of expression and imagination. And Dorota, I imagine Danusha very much based on you, am I right? Yes, Dorota is me. Dorota, more derrata, excuse me.

I loved watching this. Thank you. And I started watching it before I started reading anything about you. And when I was first watching it, they're kind of kettled in this room, you know, kind of barriers, metal barriers all around. And for a moment, I had to go, hang on, are these prisoners or are these actors? Wow. That's fantastic.

that's testament to our team of actors. Yes, the actors are amazing and they are summing up what it's like to be trapped. Pended up is the name. So explain what you're trying to get across. Right, I'm trying to get across. From my experience, as teaching playwriting in jails for so long,

I want to get across what these guys are like. It's quite simple, really. How do people know? If you haven't been in there, if you haven't had the experience that I've had, How do you know what your murderers? It's so frightening, as you say, it sounds so scary. But I want to put across that there's so much more than just their crimes.

Of course, the crime is terrible to the victim. And they can't be overlooked and they're paying their price. But they're not evil. People say to me they're evil. They should be locked up. I don't know what people mean by that. I don't know. Well, I think they would say that they have commissioned.

a crime and you probably, do you have an idea, you know their high security, do you know the specific crimes? You usually find out. Right, maybe, maybe not. But it could be somebody who has committed sexual assault to whatever degree. It could be somebody who has killed somebody

who has, I don't know, defrauded somebody. I mean, these are things, these are not victimless crimes. No. So that's why they would probably label evil. And I understand that. I really understand that.

And when I first went into prisons, I was very frightened and reluctant, who was I going to meet? And it's this thing about them being monsters, really. That's a lot of the media and a lot of the films and the stuff we see does put across that. And so I thought that's what I was going to meet in my writing groups. But nothing could be further from the truth. But in a way, I'm just thinking about this, Danusha. Yeah. Maybe it's scarier that somebody can be so.

warm, funny, lovable as these characters come across, smart, you know, quick thinking, yet have also committed these, correct? These terrible crimes. I suppose it's the, when I say that they're more than that, they want to be more than that, that's the important thing. And they want the tools and the opportunities. And if they're given it, they do become more than that. It's about giving them a chance to reform so they don't re-offend.

That's what they get out of the writing groups. You can see their confidence grows. You can see them expressing themselves. So they are funny. I mean, the play is very funny because the guys are very funny. And it's a very truthful representation of what I've experienced. But when I say more than that, it's their humanity. you know, there's something good in everybody.

I know that sounds so wishy, washy, liberal people have accused me. But it's focusing on that good that they develop the good. It brings it out in them and that's what I'm trying to do. One of my prisoners said he actually came to a reading when we were developing the script and he was at the question and answer unbeknownst to me. And he stood up and he said, I learned to express myself with words, not violence. And that, I suppose, must be incredible. rewarding for you as a teacher.

But do you feel as a woman in those spaces vulnerable? Well, I think you'd have to be aware of that. I'm always aware of where I am and who I'm with. But the honest truth is, in 17 years, I've never felt frightened. I was when I started. I've spent the first two weeks with my knee shaking. And then I thought, hold on a minute. I'm fine.

The guys are here to learn. The guys are here to learn new skills to develop themselves. They're not interested in fighting. And now, obviously, I don't do. But actually, it's not absolutely true because you're always got one part of you. You've got to be careful. You've got one part of you.

Just keeping an eye on the dynamic that's maybe brewing sometimes in the room, which again we've got in the play So I think though you are, if I'm looking at Dorota or you or reading about you you are highly attuned to what's around you

the characters you're also highly attuned to themes and narratives that that go through certain situations and I wonder have you any theories and of course there are theories of why

is there anything in common on why you believe people are there? The first thing I'd say is low self-worth. Really? Self-hatred. And when you get to know the guys, the last one I did recently, they didn't say very much. They often don't for the first two or three weeks.

They don't trust you. I remember it's playwriting. It's a bit weird. It's not just writing stories and that. And when they open up, one guy turned around, he was a murderer, and said to me, I don't know why you bother with us. We're rubbish. He said it in slightly stronger terms than that

And I think that's quite a common theme You know Which again is quite interesting about their attitudes To what they've done as well A lot of them are deeply remorseful So I think that kind of sense Of that somebody somewhere Back in their childhood back at school

And especially in family Have told them that they're rubbish And they then become rubbish They think, well, no one thinks so many good. So I think that's a common theme. I think lack of education, all the classics, lack of fathers. Like male role model?

Male role model is very, very common. And I've tried to deal with that in the play, one of the characters. Actually, a couple of them have got absent fathers. And then of course... Does that come up in your writing with people that you meet? you know, in your playwriting classes, is that the subject of fathers

or in absence of fathers come up? Definitely, definitely. Definitely. And also mothers then, women taking on the burden of breadwinning. So if the father's gone and there's this young boy who's obviously spirited,

a lot of them are very energetic, maybe ADHD, etc., etc. And the mother has to take on that other role. So again, stopping her having more time. So they're not getting that attention. I'm wondering as well, with the playwriting, it was really fascinating to watch it even because I hadn't thought really about how a play is structured.

So I was learning while watching as well. But, you know, there be some who would say why, because we talk about, we were talking about politics, for example, earlier. And, you know, obviously funding comes up for everything from health, education, prisons, etc. Some might ask, why is that where money has been spent, teaching playwriting to prisoners who have done these penis crimes? Very common response.

Well, as I say, it gives them opportunities to reform, to find their voice. On a very simple level, many of them have gone into writing when they've left. That's a direct line. I mean, one got a film on, a big film. and some have had work published but it's all about trying to turn them round in my opinion for release so we know about recidivism

and how many people of course make it out but then come back in one of your characters in the play Ben gets parole but returns to reoffending does that affect you personally I think well the character in the play that does return within the course the 10-week course isn't absolutely true.

It's not some dramatic device. I mean, it's heartbreaking. You know, it's heartbreaking. And he returned, and of course they leave the majority of them full of commitment, going straight. And he really was this young man that the character Ben is based on. And within the course, he was back. I mean, it's heartbreaking.

It's heartbreaking for me. It's heartbreaking for him. It's heartbreaking for society. at 60,000 per annum. It's a lose, lose, lose for everybody. But, you know, I've seen what the course gives them, how their confidence grows,

getting back to that self-worth. Their worth grows. Because what I do with them is they write their pieces. Then we get the actors in to act their pieces. It's a very complex thing into the jail. They see stuff they've done. and they're brimming with congratulations.

They've done something good for once, as they often say. And it does lead on to more confidence, more. It's also tools to express themselves. Many have left and then found that they could speak better at interviews. They've said that to me, whatever. I just think it's giving them hope as well that people are coming in and trying to give, and they love it as well.

They have a lot of fun. Yeah, and I'm sure with the drudgery or monotony of prison, this must be a total refuge. You are bringing this play to prisons. What do you expect? Well, mayhem, I would imagine. I'm showing them a play about prisons with a different aspect

that's slightly more positive, I hope. But I'm not doing a positive slant. I hasten to add that I'm writing a play about my 17 years working in top security and right across the board prisons and these are the people I've met and I'm going to reflect them back to the prisons themselves. Really interesting.

But you never had a very hairy moment and all that time? No, I haven't. That's the truth. Maybe once there was, as I said, there's a lot of laughter, a lot of fun in art and I think there was a bit of jealousy from another group and they were sort of shouting at me and I was walking back to the gate

and this group were shouting at me saying oh you have such a laugh and I said well come and join us but they were just attacking and my lads just formed a large circle I'm very short and very tiny and I thought oh okay I'm fine so I walk back

so that's about as near to a run in which is a really important point I haven't had that and I have worked with very dangerous people it's about a second chance on the victim thing which I really understand is one of our

the actress that plays Dorota her sister Kate Payton a BBC producer was shot and murdered in Africa some years ago and it's wonderful to talk to her about because so she's a real victim of

violence of murder and she wants prisoners to have opportunity and reform so it's better coming from her than from me. Really great to have you in. Thank you very much, Danusha Ivasco. Penned up, we'll be touring across England for just over a month

and that begins on the 10th of September. Thanks for coming in. Thank you. Now, women's sport over a weekend, not a mention of Aylish McCulligan's performance in the Great North Run hidden away on the athletics pages. It didn't make the sports headlines. Well, we're mentioning it here, aren't we?

8-4-4-4. Keep in coming if there's some woman or women. we should be mentioning this morning as we talk about the women's weekend, bumper weekend of sports. Now, I want to turn to something else. You might have seen articles on social media branding creatine as the secret weapon for women, claiming they can boost brainpower, level up our lives, especially during menopause or perimenopause. But what is it? Should we all be taking it?

What impact might it have? Or is it just one more supplement to worry about? Well, to find out more, I'm joined by British Menopause Society accredited GP. Dr. Funula Barton and registered dietitian, Laura Clark, who specialises in the menopause. Great to have both of you with us. Laura, let me start with you. What is creatine? Good morning.

That's a good question to start with. So creatine is a compound. It's found naturally in our bodies. It's made from amino acids. And we can also get it from our food in things like meat and fish. But of course, it's also available. in supplement form. And they're not a new thing, creatine supplements,

but I think this suggestion that women, particularly those over 40, should be taking it, is pretty new. Why do you think that's happening? Yeah, I mean, certainly we are seeing this trend towards re-evaluating lots of things with a, you know, through a female lens. Creatin is a well-researched supplement.

As you say, it's been around for a really long time. And of course, traditionally, a lot of research in the sports arena has been done on men. So we are trying to catch up and to see really how these sorts of supplements are relevant for the female audience, particularly taking into consideration that whole female lifespan and the shifts and changes in our reproductive hormones and the impact that that has on our body's ability to produce creating. we can see that women have much lower stores of creatine than men, 70 to 80% lower. So it's not surprising that we're beginning to see that perhaps there's a role for creatine

with women going through the menopause because they are coping with so much. Changes to muscle, changes to bone, changes to cognitive function, for example. Yes, well, let me bring in Funula here. It has been branded as a secret weapon, Fanula. But let us dive into some of the potential benefits. For example, the brain fog, memory, mood. Is there any evidence, it makes a difference? So I think that it's important to not think of anything

as a secret weapon or a magic wand or a magic bullet for helping with what is a really complex situation at midlife in perimenopause and menopause. However, I'm excited. about creatine because it's one of the supplements that we are being targeted with as women in midlife that has actually got some evidence base behind it in some pretty decent clinical trials in women that date back to sort of the you know the early 2000s and actually not many supplements can make that claim now I think in terms of what it can do I think it's important to understand

its mechanism of action in the body in order to understand what it might be able to do for us As Laura says, it's a naturally occurring molecule, but it's really important for energy availability within cells. So what it is, it's part of this process within cells that helps to recycle something called ATP, which is the main energy molecule in our cells. And so it's particularly important for tissues or cell lines that have a high energy turnover. So things like our skeletal muscle or indeed our nervous system and brain cells, which take a lot of energy and require a lot of energy renewal. And that's why we're seeing that there's scope for potential benefit in musculoskeletal health, including bone and muscle health, but also in our nervous system. So it has

been shown in some studies to help with things like mood and improving cognition. Whether this is a direct effect on those symptoms or whether this is a secondary effect on the fact that it can also be shown to help with things like sleep. In particular, in times of high physiological stress, so for example, if you're jet-bagged or if you've been on a night shift, sometimes using a high dose, for example, can help you reset things and recover from that physiological stress. And of course, perimenopause is a transition which does involve significant physiological stress in the context of often, you know, profound circumstantial complexity, well which adds additional weight to the scenario. So the main things I see it benefiting for

are body composition, muscle strength and power, sport performance, but also smaller studies and in some of my patients anecdotally seeing improvements in things like mood, motivation and cognition. But why not take it in food because it is available in food? It is. And as Laura mentioned, primarily in animal-based food products for things like red meat or or fish. And so actually for vegan or vegetarian women in particular, it's something that you should think about supplementing. The reason why supplementing can be useful is because it's very difficult to get an adequate amount of creatine through diet alone. You'd have to eat quite a lot of that meat, which obviously either isn't palatable to us, isn't affordable for us, or, you know,

involves quite a lot of effort in terms of having to prepare and consume that volume of meat or fish in a day and actually the supplements that are out there you know there's a huge number and if you choose something that's just a pure creatine monohydrate powder that hasn't got anything else in it that's very simple then it's just a very concentrated form of that natural compound that you would be getting from eating the meat and fish anyway and because i you know there'll be money listening i'm sure that we'll feel that they're just been bombarded it with various supplements and this might be,

seems like one more thing that they're to feel bad about or put on their list. And I imagine it probably may not work for everyone to even take it. There must be some that should avoid it, Vanilla.

So I wouldn't necessarily say there's anybody that should avoid it. If you've got like established medical problems and in particular if you've got established kidney disease or liver dysfunction, then absolutely seek medical advice before starting this in the same way that you would any medication or supplement. But by and large, it's well tolerated and it has been shown in some of the quite long-term longitudinal studies to be safe for use, which again, we've got data on this supplement in a way that we don't have data on many of the other supplements that we're being bombarded with.

Let me leave it there, Dr. Fenula Barton and Laura Clark. I want to thank both of you. I also though would like to mention of course for our listeners that if you do have any questions about it you should go to your GP and ask about this or any other supplements it does feel

like so many are being targeted at various groups, various demographics at the moment we'll continue talking about more of them but that's quite a bit of information on creatine if that has come across your social media feeds or your conversation

I want to let you know about tomorrow. We will be speaking to the best-selling author, Young Chang. Now, you might remember her 1991 memoir and family history, Wild Swans. It contained the biographies of her mother and her grandmother, and then finally her own experience of growing up in China during the Cultural Revolution. Well, now the highly anticipated sequel is coming out

about her arrival and life in the UK. Do join me for that conversation 10 a.m. tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Ever wish someone had sat you down when you started your job and said, by the way, these are the vital do's and don't, stick with these, and you'll be fine. Well, what you need is that when it hits the fan, Golden Rules of PR. With me, Simon Lewis.

And me, David Yowland. Whether it's how to start a network, plan for a crisis, or managing a challenging client, it's all in our new miniseries. The principles we come back to again and again on this show that apply equally both to spin doctors and anyone trying to do any kind of PR for yourself, in your community, your work, wherever. Make sure you subscribe to when it hits the fan on BBC Sounds.