Woman's Hour - Anita Hill on her book Believing: Our Thirty-Year Journey to End Gender Violence.

Episode Date: October 5, 2021

We hear from Professor Anita Hill who thirty years ago faced an all-male, all-white Senate Judiciary Committee—led by the then, Senator Joe Biden—to testify that her boss, Supreme Court Justice nominee Clarence Thomas, had sexually harassed her. It was a landmark moment for these issues and inspired countless women to come forward with their stories, to file complaints, and even to run for office; creating an unintentional trail blazer. Now an advocate, educator and author she talks to Emma Barnett about her new book Believing: Our Thirty-Year Journey to End Gender Violence.Research suggests that talking to people we don't know can be good for us. Why don’t we do it more often? How has the pandemic impacted our desire to talk to people we don’t know? Dr Gillian Sandstrom, senior lecturer in psychology at the University of Essex, tells us the benefits of making small talk and gives us some tips on how to do it. How can we best discuss the issues of safety without making girls and young women terrified to leave the house? I am joined now by parenting expert, Sue Atkins and Lorraine Candy - mother of three daughters and author of 'Mum, What's Wrong with You?': 101 Things Only Mothers of Teenage Girls Know.Plus ahead tonight’s 2021 Gramophones, Awards, the classical music version of the Grammys which will be streaming live this evening we talk to Fatma Said.Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell Photo credit; Celeste Sloman

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. Since yesterday's programme where we spoke about whether the police are institutionally or as an institution sexist, something Janet Hill, a retired Met police officer, told us, the Met Commissioner, Dame Cressida Dick, has announced that an independent review is set to be carried out into the Met police's standards and culture after the kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard by a serving police officer. Dame Cressida, who's rejected calls to resign, said that the review would be led by a high-profile person and she's also called for a national review of police vetting standards.

Today, the Home Secretary, Priti Patel, and the newly installed Justice Secretary, Dominic Raab, will be speaking at the Conservative Party annual conference about their respective briefs. But while we await policies, independent reviews and whatever else you've heard the Prime Minister has ruled out making misogyny a hate crime, women and girls have got to get on with their lives. And while it's sobering to note that even at the Conservative Party conference,

an event surrounded by a ring of police officers and high security, a woman, Clementine Couton, has reported being violently assaulted in the lobby of Manchester's Midland Hotel by a very drunk man. The Conservative Party has confirmed that a man has now been suspended from the party and ejected from the conference. But we need to, at the same time as hearing those stories and realities, focus on ensuring that we help the next generation and us all think about safety, but not in the process of doing so, terrify lots of people in positions wanting to come out into their lives, whether that's younger women, older women, girls.

How do we have those conversations? Today I want to talk about how we best do that. If you have daughters, how are you grappling with this? If you don't, but you're talking about safety and going out and being in spaces, whether it's conferences, through to work events, through to going out at night. As women and friends, if you're having this conversation, what are you saying about this? You and your ideas most welcome. You can text Women's Hour on 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can message me on social media, also at BBC Women's Hour, or email me your take on this through our website. But someone with plenty of ideas around gender-based violence and how to respond, but also someone who became an overnight public figure, is Anita Hill. 30 years ago this month, she, as a 35-year-old black law professor from Oklahoma, faced an all-male, all-white Senate Judiciary Committee, chaired by the then-Senator Joe Biden, to testify that her boss, Supreme Court Justice nominee Clarence Thomas,

had sexually harassed her. Anita Hill's claims were not upheld, and Clarence Thomas went on to become a Supreme Court judge where he remains today. Hear why she doesn't regret her actions in today's programme and her plan for what to do about this systemic issue, all coming up today with us here on Woman's Hour and the return of talking to people you don't know. After the pandemic, we're going to be talking about

why talking to strangers can be one of life's joys and how it's actually proven to be good for us. A professor of psychology will be sharing all, so don't miss that. But the brutal and tragic killings of Sarah Everard and Sabina Nessa, as well as the killings of at least 81 other women since March this year, have prompted many conversations and emotions, not least sorrow and rage. Many of you have been getting in touch with us over the past few days and weeks and months to express such feelings and such views. Last week, I spoke to Zoe Billingham, a top inspector at Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary,

whose damning government commissioned report looked into the way an epidemic of violence against women and girls is being handled. She's called for the prevention of these crimes to be taken as seriously by police and government as counterterrorism. You can catch up on that interview on BBC Sounds. We also talked about the vetting procedures or lack thereof within the police. But how can we best discuss the issues of safety without making girls and young women terrified to leave the house, bluntly? I'm joined now by parenting experts Sue Atkins and Lorraine Candy, the journalist and mother of three daughters and author of Mum, What's Wrong With You? 101 Things Only Mothers of Teenage Girls Know. Sue, let me start with you. Good morning. Good morning. How has the stories of

Sarah Everard and Sabina Nessa and other stories and other killings of other women affected you and what you're thinking about in terms of how we communicate on this? Yes, well, it's very personal, actually. It really triggered me because I was born in Clapham and my daughter actually lives in a flat where I was born. It's now been converted into flats and she overlooks Clapham Common and Sarah would have walked that journey. And then when I saw the photographs of where Sarah had been stopped, it just took my breath away. And I burst into tears because I used to catch the bus in Poinders Road just up from there. So you can see that it has a personal thing for me. I have a 27-year-old daughter, but also, you know, the whole thing has affected everybody. And, you know, what can we do? That's the thing I feel so helpless about.

So by talking about it, perhaps trying to get mothers and daughters and sons and dads and everyone trying to talk about it, and then at the higher level, trying to make some form of change. And that's a bit disappointing to hear that about Boris this morning, from my point of view. And we've done a lot on policy and the police, and we'll keep doing that, believe me. But I suppose this conversation today is trying, Lorraine, to keep in balance and, you know, how we respond and how our response may affect those who rely on us for guidance, and in your case, your daughters. Yes, exactly. I mean, I've tried to approach it with what I call measured concern, because I don't want to panic

them. I don't want them to catastrophize every time they go out. I don't want to panic them. I don't want them to catastrophize every time they go out. I don't want them to feel helpless and powerless. I want to actively listen to what frightens them because what frightens one teenage girl might not frighten another teenage girl. So I need their view on it. And also I don't want to make them feel that it's what they wear or where they go. I don't want them to feel they've got to sort this out themselves. I need them to feel the power and the resilience around it. They've got to have some common sense, obviously. But also, it's really hard, but I think for parents not to show that panic, because we're all terrified, aren't we? We're all worried about our young girls going out in the dark, after dark, their brains are all over

the place as teenagers, they've got no risk assessment. So that is terrifying, but it shouldn't be their responsibility for us to feel less terrified about it. You know, I don't want to put that pressure on them as well. So this kind of, I've tried to keep it sort of measured and calm and concerned and around the practical as well. But you know what, my girls are just really cross. I think they're just full of rage at the moment. I was going to say, what have they said to you? I know they're at different ages. What are their concerns? Well, they're 19 and 17, my older girls. I also have a 10-year-old who's just starting to walk home from school on her own for that short 15-minute journey. They are absolutely furious. They're very, very sad about Sarah and Sabina. That was their overwhelming feeling at the beginning. But now they're just really, really cross about it.

You know, I mean, you would direct that rage into something practical. But, you know, we've talked about staying in groups, telling people where you're going, having taxi apps, putting your phones away. You know, teenagers are the age group highest risk of crime in society. So we've been fairly strong about this all the way through with them on practically. But, you know, talk to your girls.

That's what I keep saying to mums. Talk to your girls. What is frightening them? Again, I should say, and them on practically. But, you know, talk to your girls. That's what I keep saying to mums, talk to your girls. What is frightening them? Again, I should say, and you've made the point, Lorraine, and I'm sure you'll agree, Sue, that it's not ideal to in any way have to think about this or put this on them. And it shouldn't be women having or girls having to change their actions, change the way they dress, change the way they behave.

But I do think how people are talking about this and how not to and perhaps how to is a useful conversation. And that's in the spirit that we're trying to have this conversation this morning. Sue, we've got a message here that's just come in saying, I think all girls should be given martial arts training in self-defence as part of the national curriculum to give them a way to protect themselves in their future. What do you make of that? Interesting, isn't it? I remember years ago actually doing a self-defence course by the police, donkeys years ago, myself.

But that's not the answer either, is it? I wrote an article on my blog around talking and teaching boys as well. And how do we raise men to be respectful? And of course, the other thing we've got to bear in mind, not all police are like that. It's a very unusual circumstance. Not all men are like that either. So not everybody's tarred with the same brush. So it's like the sex talk that you have to have with your kids as well. It's not just one big talk, is it? This is not one big talk. This is a constantly kind of teaching and talking to your children about, yes, practical stuff to stay safe, but also you're right. You know, you don't want them to feel that they can't go out and wear what they want or go where they want. But it is, you know, we need to have those conversations with our kids that are not scaremongering. I'm all about keeping it kind of calm, but also listening, because sometimes they

get the wrong end of the stick on social media. And sometimes, you know, some people do kind of make a drama out of it. And kids in teenage years, their emotions are very heightened. So of course, they can stir each other up. But it is then I said to my own daughter, she's furious and rageful, put it into something more positive. Can you join something? Can you do something? Can you write something? Can you get involved in some way? So you put that rage into action of some sort to make change yes and and i suppose again more messages coming in on this uh one saying yes how do we talk about it without terrifying our daughters but also how can we talk about the subjects of male violence without making our sons feel as if they're being blamed for other men's violence as

well so there's lots of tripwires, Lorraine, it seems, with this. Have you got any tips around what you've actually said so far and also some questions around coping and resilience coming in? Yeah, I mean, I think what we did was sit down and talk about very practical things, the kind of safety elements, you know, keeping to well-lit streets, which I would say to my son as well, because teenage boys, you know, are just at risk of being robbed, et cetera, in the streets street so that safety and tell people where you're going buy your own

drinks watch your drinks when you're going out not to panic and also you know keep your valuables in sight don't get into cars you know it's very calm conversations these are the things there's lots of websites that can help you frame that conversation and exactly what to say but I think you know it's a cultural change isn't it that we're looking for girls drop out of sport at 12 or 13 huge numbers of them the vast majority do so they lose a chance to feel stronger physically so we take that away from them because we don't make it part an important part of their growing up and their teenage years it's all those small things you know I've got a 14 year old son as well and I talk to him about language around women and about the culture within the school that he goes to so all of that has to come into play but in a very calm you know teenagers take a while for things to take in

because their brains are being completely rebuilt so they might not get it once you might have to have this conversation a couple of times you might have to ask them what's happened in certain situations and also to give them some kind of resilience for dealing with things when they go wrong, to accept they're not going to be happy all the time, that things are going to be uncomfortable and difficult and those feelings may not be anxiety, they might be sadness or worry or fear. Just dealing with those emotions is quite important and sitting with them while they're talking about it. I think the other thing is not to try and fix everything for them. You know, they've got to go out on their own and do these things.

And when things happen, they learn from it. They grow, they evolve, they feel stronger. If you're driving them everywhere, if you're not letting them out, if you're banning, that's going to be really, really difficult for them as they grow up and evolve. We've got a couple of messages around what you just started to come on to with your son. Ellie says, I don't think we should just hear from parents with girls. Let's hear how people are parenting our young boys, because that's the problem itself. We continuously

talk about how women can protect themselves, but we need to start with the men and how we can prevent this violence and misogyny from happening in the first place. What and how are we teaching our young boys? Another message just saying, parents must talk to their sons in capital letters. And I don't doubt that, which is what I said at the beginning, but the point is in the middle of that happening, or maybe at the beginning of that happening in a slightly different way,

you still got to talk to girls about what's just happened and how to cope with it. And a major factor that has come up on these messages from our listeners this morning is some of the questions they've been asked by their children and by their daughters specifically around authority figures and the police. While this is an exceptional event, hence why the sentence that was handed out to Wayne Cousins was handed out and also that this is such a shocking murder because of those details,

it's something that of course is coming up as a question and a part of the conversation. Sue Atkins as a parenting expert, what do you say about how to talk about figures of authority now to children? Again, yes, you're absolutely right. You need to point out that children and young people and teenagers need to discern. You have to do that anyway in life. You have to trust your intuition. Do you think this is the person what they're saying is true? And I don't want everyone to think that all authority figures are no good. And I don't want all of this kind of to escalate. So you can't trust anyone because that means then, you know, what a way to live your life.

That, you know, you take all of that into your own relationships as well, because we're trying to talk and teach our kids about self-respect, respecting each other, respecting men, respecting authority. We're passing on our values all the time in the way we talk and teach and the way we act and what we say to our children. So it is a difficult thing. I suggest the parents I've been working with is sometimes to grab a cup of coffee, sit down with a piece of paper and just jot down a couple of things that if your kids start to ask you, so you've got clarity, it's about you getting clarity, about you appearing calm. Yes, addressing that this is a very unusual circumstance. Again, depending on the age and maturity of your children, both boys and girls, I used to use all sorts of, you know, headlines in the paper to talk and teach my kids about all sorts of things.

So use it wisely. Don't hype it up and try and keep an eye on where they're getting their information from, because sometimes if they're getting it on social media, you know, you get down this algorithm business and you get more and more scaremongering stuff. And then that can really, you know, throw out your judgment. So yes, it's about discernment, empowerment, and not being a helicopter parent, trying to give them the resources that they need to be able to cope in different circumstances. Sue Atkins thank you for that Lorraine I'll give the final word to you in just a moment but Saskia wrote in on that exact point saying because of the the police element in this story actually it's made her daughter question figures

of authority which she wants her to do to an extent in some ways, exactly as Sue was just talking about there. But just what Sue was also saying about using the information that's out there, keeping it in context, Joy's written in on email, good morning to you, one of the best ways of not making our daughters, quote, hide at home is to report the fact that of the 81 or so tragic deaths of women since March, since the killing of Sarah Everard. Most were actually killings at home by people that the women knew, not women attacked on the street. Every death is tragic and shouldn't happen, but home for many is not safe. Lorraine, is that the type of information you would go near with your children? Because context is all, and that is a

very important piece of context. Yeah, I think it is. I did some volunteering with a shout text helpline around this. And obviously, most of the young people that came in, their most threats of violence were actually in the home. They weren't out on the streets by strangers. So it is a context to give your daughters. But I think the other important thing to mention is that your girls need to find their voice. You know, women are often not powerful enough. We're not listened to. Men interrupt us all the time. We know all the statistics around that. But I would really encourage girls to learn how to speak up,

particularly around authority, to feel confident that they can voice their opinions in the classroom, out of the classroom, among their peer groups. I think once they find their voice, then they start to feel slightly more powerful in more worrying situations. Lorraine Candy, thank you very much to you. The author of Mum, What's Wrong With You? 101 Things Only Mothers of Teenage Girls Know. Well, all of you getting in touch this morning seem to be coming at this from either very personal situations

or advice that you would give even if you don't have daughters or sons. But it's definitely sparked something about how we're talking about this and keeping it, you know, on, if you like, the right side of the facts and the context of this. Ted's written in to say, please remember that mothers are worried about the safety of their sons who are more likely to be assaulted. Otherwise, we perpetuate the myth of boys. Tough, there. Another one here, informal but facilitated groups in the school lunch hours, question mark, to encourage peers to discuss broader issues, racism, misogyny, homophobia, and regarding street risks and safety. Boys are more likely to suffer a random assault,

so all will benefit. Another one here, as a 66-year-old woman, I've seen for many decades the creeping sexualisation of almost every aspect of life, alongside the deterioration of individual responsibility i don't want to return to the oppression repression of earlier ages but as louise says here on her email this needs many years of education at every level and a real awareness and radical change to be affected in our culture i'll come back to your messages if i can but do please keep them coming in because it's very interesting and good to get the way that you are talking about this. And talking of talking,

it's good to talk to those you don't know. I mean, I essentially, I feel like we do know each other. I hope we're getting to know each other all the time. But that's what I like to do a lot in my work. I speak to people I've never met before every single day, but perhaps you're not one of those people who likes talking to those you don't know. And maybe you should be trying it because as Dr. Gillian Sandstrom, a senior lecturer in psychology at the University of Essex can help us with now, it's good for you. Is it good for you to talk to people you don't know? And especially post pandemic as we're starting to make eye contacts and talk to people more and more? Yes, absolutely. Research that I've done and research by others shows that it puts us in a good mood and helps us feel connected to one another.

A lot of people, though, cannot bear the thought of it. They wouldn't even know where to start. And, you know, pre-pandemic, always avoiding eye contact with people they didn't know and the thought of even uttering some words would make them shrivel into a ball. Others are the opposite. But what would you say to those who need some convincing? Well, I mean, I guess there's the research, but there's also, you know, personal anecdotes. I'm an introvert. And so I really feel it's important to say, you know, very early on, this is not just something that you have to have a special kind of personality to do it and to enjoy it. But I think, especially during the pandemic, it's been really helpful to me. I live across the street from a park and I go for a walk almost every day. And at the beginning of the pandemic, I didn't want to make eye contact with people, even though, you know, I do this

research and I talk to strangers all the time, but all of a sudden people felt especially scary. But then I realized there's no reason we can't still look at each other and smile at one another and acknowledge our shared humanity. It really does help us feel better. Like we're in it together and we can help each other just by doing these small things. I actually, I understand you started researching this topic because of a woman who ran a hot dog stand in Toronto. How did she inspire you? So I started a master's degree and it was in psychology, but not related to this topic. And the university I was at was right in the city. And so when I walked between the research lab I was based in and my supervisor's office, I would pass this hot

dog stand. And I don't know how it happened. It wasn't deliberate, but I kind of developed this relationship with the lady who worked at the hot dog stand. And I don't know if we ever spoke to each other. I never bought a hot dog, but every time I walked past her, I would just smile and wave and she'd smile and wave at me. And I realized after a while that I felt so much better and it felt wrong when she wasn't there, you know? So her knowing who I was made me feel like I belonged on campus. And it was just really intriguing to think that this tiny little relationship mattered so much to me. And so that's why I started studying it. I thought, is this just me or is this something that everybody can benefit from? Those sorts of things, however small they seem, they punctuate our lives, don't they?

Yeah. And I think one, I talked to someone the other day who just moved to a new city. And I think that's always a challenging situation. But when you do that, not only are you leaving the people that you're close to behind, but you're leaving this whole network of people. And I think maybe we've noticed that because of the pandemic, we've, you know, during the lockdowns, we were cut off from all these people who are sort of peripheral in our social networks. But I hope the pandemic has helped us realize that they're more important than we maybe realised. And I think the mask element has been difficult as well, you know, with not being able to see people's faces and not being able to hear people as much, whether that's, I don't know, buying a cup of tea or a cup of coffee, some of the ways you may have just very casually

burst your own headspace and to talk to somebody else have become trickier. Absolutely. Having said that, eye contact on its own is a really important thing. So just looking someone in the eye can be a positive thing. It can make people feel more connected to other people. And I don't know, I was walking the other day with a mask on and I walked past someone and I'm just trying more to do that smiling

where your eyes get involved. So I was walking past someone, I think it was at a restaurant or something, and I could see them smile back at me. And I thought, OK, they noticed. They could tell that I was smiling, even though they can't actually see my smile. In the beginning of starting to get used to getting used to wearing masks, because I wear glasses all the time, I hadn't quite mastered the nose pinch. And I used to try and also, you know, be a smile to someone, the very few people who are on the street, certainly around the studio when I was still able to go into work, but my glasses would be steamed up. So I completely covered and no one was seeing what was going on under there. I've definitely got a lot better at

it. But what goes on in our brains or in our body when we make that connection with a stranger? Gosh, I don't know how to answer that question. I can tell you what goes on in our brain that sort of prevents us from talking to people. So it seems in many ways there's been tons of research showing how in most domains people think that they're better than average. So people probably think they're less likely to get COVID than someone else. People think they're better drivers than everybody else. So in so many different ways, we think we are not average and the people close to us are not average.

But for whatever reason, in these social domains, we seem to have this chip on our shoulder almost. So we have this negative voice in our head that's saying, you know, oh, why did I say that? I shouldn't have said that. Did they understand me? What are they going to think of me? So we have this voice telling us that we just don't know what we're doing. And the good news is that we're wrong. So, you know, lots and lots of research showing that we underestimate the positive impression we make on other people. So people like us more than we think. So we have to be just a little bit brave and sort of be willing to ignore that negative voice that's telling us all those nasty things about ourselves. Although, you know, the other thing just to say in light of our previous conversation, and it's a good day to talk to you about this when we're talking about

resilience and, you know, still trying to live our lives, despite some of the absolutely terrible things that we've been learning about, is, you know, have you noticed in your research about men and women talking to each other? Because of course, that can be something that, you know, women want to avoid, men don't, other way around, vice versa. What have you noticed there? I mean, I've been a bit of a coward in my research by completely ignoring the gender issues, because it just gets so complicated. But anecdotally, I've definitely talked to lots of women who say, you know, hey, I'd like to have a chat with people, including men, but I don't want them to think

that I'm hitting on them. Equally, I've talked to men who said that they don't want to talk to women because they worry about making women feel uncomfortable. So, you know, those men are out there too. So, you know, it is definitely fraught. You know, commenting on something that Sue mentioned in the last segment, she was talking about how what we don't want to have happen as a result of what's going on is for people to lose trust in one another, because it really is not a nice way to live if we can't trust in our fellow humans um and so you know we have to get to the stage where it's okay to just have a chat with someone whoever they are um and not have it mean anything more than people want to connect and be friendly and and make the world a kinder place

i love it i mean i absolutely love talking to people i don't know i mean that's possibly not surprising but yeah but you know i think you have some of the best exchanges you're not always in the mood for it they're not always in the mood for it but I know you you had a very good one actually once after being on this program I did yes I was on Women's Hour in January 2019 talking about some different work not related to talking to strangers and I live inchester. So I left Women's Hour, got on the tube to head back to the train station. And, you know, I was kind of buzzing because it was it was a fun thing. I came into the broadcast house and had this whole experience. So I talked to someone on the tube. It was sort of middle of the day. There wasn't too many people around. And so I turned to this lady and I said,

you know, how's your day been so far? And she kind of mumbled something. And, you know, I thought, okay, this is one of those conversations that's not going to go anywhere. Lots of them are like that. That's okay. And so there was a pause and then she turned to me and she said, well, how's your day going so far? And I said, well, actually I've had quite an adventure today. I was on woman's hour and she was quite interested in this. And then she turned to me and she said, well, actually, I just found out I'm pregnant. So she'd just been to the GP and she'd just gotten this amazing news. And of course, she's on her way back to the office. And, you know, we don't talk about it early on because, you know, we want to pass that

critical moment. So she was going to go back to work and not be able to say anything. But I was safe because I was a stranger and she wasn't going to see me again. So we actually, we hugged it out on the tube. It was a really, really special moment. You went from, hey, how was your day? And a lot of people on all forms of public transport may or may not like that to having a hug by the end of it. I mean, that's the ultimate. That is the ultimate. I mean, Michelle's just written in to say it can be really liberating talking to complete strangers. They don't know you, can't judge you. So you can be the best person you want

to be as long as there's no history between you, or you can be a completely different person. Or in your case, I suppose, or in that case, share more than you would with people that do know you and take that leap. And Jane says, get a dog. Endless random stranger encounters that are life-affirming and uplifting. I suppose as you're picking up poo together and whatever else and getting out there. Thank you so much for coming to tell us a bit about your research and why we should be doing this, even if we if we feel like that voice in our head is the one that's very loud indeed. And I should say, you know, I also when moving to London from Manchester used to talk to absolutely everyone, which didn't always seem to be what everyone else around me wanted and raised a few eyebrows here and there. But I've carried on doing

it. Dr Gillian Sundstrom, thank you for coming to talk to us today and your story is pleased to keep coming in on that. And of course, what we were talking about earlier about those conversations we have been having around safety and how we navigate the world. And I should say, and I mentioned this yesterday, on Women's Hour turns 75 on Thursday. I'd love you to join me then for a special programme. Raise a tea, gin, beer, depending on your choice of tip or whatever you can handle at 10 o'clock in the morning. I'm game, if you are.

So do join me for Thursday's special programme. And I wanted to make that sure we had that invite to you because, of course, anything you wish to say about that or any of your memories, we've just had a very good story about women's I'm all ears. But long before the Me Too movement and the recent wave of women starting to find their voices to speak out against high profile men, there was Anita Hill. 30 years ago this month, she, as a 35-year-old black law professor from Oklahoma, faced an all-male, all-white Senate Judiciary Committee chaired by then-Senator Joe Biden to testify that her boss, Supreme Court Justice nominee as he was

then, Clarence Thomas, had sexually harassed her. This is a short clip of her 20-minute opening statement to the committee in October 1991 explaining why she was speaking out after years of remaining silent. As I said, I may have used poor judgment. Perhaps I should have taken angry or even militant steps, both when I was in the agency or after I left it. But I must confess to the world that the course that I took seemed the better as well as the easier approach. I declined any comment to newspapers but later when Senate staff asked me about these matters

I felt I had a duty to report. I have no personal vendetta against Clarence Thomas. I seek only to provide the committee with information which it may regard as relevant. It would have been more comfortable to remain silent. I took no initiative to inform anyone. But when I was asked by a representative of this committee to report my experience, I felt that I had to tell the truth. I could not keep silent.

Anita Hill's claims were not upheld, if you remember that, many of you will. Clarence Thomas went on to become a Supreme Court judge, where he remains today. But broadcast over three days, Professor Anita Hill's testimony riveted and divided America. It was a landmark moment for these issues in the US, making sexual harassment a household phrase and inspiring countless women to come forward with their stories, to file complaints and even to run for office and created an unintentional trailblazer in Anita Hill. A university professor of social policy, law and gender studies,

she joined me down the line from the East Coast of America. And I started our conversation by asking her what it had been like to give that testimony, that very famous testimony to that committee. It was threatening. It was a feeling that I guess I'd never had before. In some ways, it was a surreal feeling. But all the time during the hearing, I felt like I was on trial. And that's the threatening part of it. I didn't feel like the process was there to help get to the truth so much as it was, one, to get it over with so that the senators could vote on the nomination for the Supreme Court justice position. But also just to get through it, because people weren't comfortable talking about sexual harassment and the experience that I had.

They weren't comfortable. They didn't really know anything about it. And then they were, they are standing in judgment. In addition to feeling though, what I've been able to do is sort of process what that feeling meant, but also in the interim year has been able to inform myself, not just to, to, to look at my own experience, but to look at the experience of others. And I write about that in believing, you know, that one of the first moments when I realized that a problem that was much

bigger than me was when I got a phone call from a man shortly after the hearing. It was within weeks, actually, maybe even days. And he said, he started out sort of hesitantly, but then he eventually divulged that he had been a victim of incest, and that the hearings reminded him of how his family had reacted. The senator's actions reminded him of how his family had reacted to him. They didn't believe him or they said they didn't believe him. And they accused him of making it up and took the side of his abuser.

The term he used was that you've opened a whole can of worms. And I wasn't sure what that meant. But what I began to understand, as I heard from many others, was that I had really opened a conversation about a whole range of behaviors that target people, some of them sexualized, some in other ways, physical abuse, but that it was not just a conversation about one behavior. It had to be a conversation about a whole range of behaviors. I think also just to remind our listeners, a young girl, Joe Biden, was on that committee. Joe Biden, Senator Biden at the time, was chairing that committee. And he was really in charge of how the committee operated, what rules applied, and ultimately when the committee's hearing would be ended. And what is that like now for you, the fact that he is the president of your country?

And have you ever spoken to him about that? Yes, I've spoken to him once, actually, a couple of years ago, when he announced that he was going to be running for president. And in the interim, many people have asked him about whether he would apologize to me because of his mishandling of the hearing, including failure to call three women witnesses who had similar experiences that I had, who I didn't know, and he failed to call them. There were other ways that the committee was mishandled and the process was mishandled. And people over the years have taken note about it. And they've recognized that this was not a good moment for our country. And they asked if he would apologize. And he did eventually apologize.

And he apologized to me personally. And I was grateful for the personal apology to the extent that that was forthcoming. But I was disappointed that in that apology, he did not understand the impact that that hearing had on other victims, other survivors, other family members, other people who just expected our government to do better and should do better in hearing people when they have claims of sexual harassment. So with that in mind, even with that apology, what is your view of him being the ultimate leader now, you know, in your country? Because, you know, in your book, you talk about the 30-year journey to end gender violence. But, you know, you're still left wanting from the man at the very top of all of the trees in your country. Well, but that doesn't absolve him of having a

responsibility to the country. And part of that responsibility is to address this rampant problem in our country. But do you have faith? Do you have faith that he can do that based on what you just described that was lacking from his understanding about what happened 30 years ago? Well, in the interim, he has been a proponent of the Violence Against Women Act that is part of the law in the US. He has been involved in efforts to end campus sexual violence. It's not a matter of whether any of us are born able to deal with this. It's whether we will each in our own way and in our own capacity acknowledge the problem, acknowledge it for what it is. I mean, there is so much evidence out there.

If you think about the fact that in the United States, one out of every four women say that they have been sexually assaulted or raped in this country. One out of every four college students will be assaulted or raped as they go into college. And the rates are higher for young women who don't go to college. 50% of the women in the country say they have been harassed in the workplace. One out of every six men have been sexually assaulted. Men and boys have been sexually assaulted in this country. So we have a problem that's obvious. We have numerous scandals. Of course, I'm also minded of the fact that we discussed this only on Women's Hour the other day about the significance for women in America, particularly Black women, that the singer R. Kelly was found guilty last week of exploiting his superstar status to run a scheme to sexually abuse women, children and some men

over the past two decades. How important is that verdict? You know, it is a breakthrough. The conviction is a breakthrough. It took 30 years nearly to happen. And that's the travesty because we know many people were abused in the interim. Even though there were charges against R. Kelly escaped prosecution for so many years. It is because the society devalues Black women. And so that issue of race is always important. It's always an element that overlays misogyny and that combines with it to put women of color at greater risk for abuse and then to reduce the likelihood that when they do complain, that people are going to take it seriously and actually respond. Also, very lately, college campuses now, throughout the Midwest, throughout the country, actually,

or in Massachusetts here as well, are protesting sexual assault on college campuses. They're directing their attention at fraternities where many have been happening and have been documented as happening, sexual assaults that is. But what that says to me is that now we are starting to direct our attention not only at the individuals who are behaving badly, but also to the institutions like the fraternities that may be shielding them from any kind of scrutiny or any kind of accountability. From all of that, we're moving in the right direction,

but we have so much to overcome to really get to where we should be. A conversation that we have been having in this country very recently and in the last few days, especially because of the sentencing of a serving police officer who raped, kidnapped and murdered a woman in her 30s called Sarah Everard, very much looking up at the police and those systems as well, the ones that are meant to be keeping us safe and violence against women and attitudes. A lot has been said about what women need to do and how women need to behave to keep themselves safe. And not a lot has been said or anything that's been perhaps even convincing about what men need to do and how we need to change men's attitudes.

What do you want to say about solutions here, if I could put it like that, about how we need to talk about this and what needs to change to stop it being, as you argue in your book, systemic? Well, one of the things I think behind that tendency for us to say, to tell women to fix their own problem is the presumption that somehow this abuse is natural and normal and cannot, or it can't be controlled. And therefore, women have to protect themselves because men can't control themselves or that we assume that they have the right to do it. I mean, if we think, though, about how we raise children, both boys, girls, non-binary, we often tell those people who are victims that what they're facing is not so bad. Or we give them the message that, well, you know, that's just what boys do.

And sometimes we even tell children that when a boy picks on a girl or abuses them or calls them names, it's because they like them as opposed to this is bad behavior and we need to stop. And what we're doing in a sense is grooming girls to accept the behavior and grooming boys to accept the behavior, that their behavior is not anything that they should have to worry about or correct. You know, when I would teach my students, I'd say that very often when we have problems and bias and discrimination or abuse, there are three approaches. One is to fix the victim. The other is to fix the abuser, which is hardly ever approach that's taken. And finally, the third is to fix the system. Now, we need to address abusers' behavior, but we also need to address the culture and messaging and presumptions that

we embed in our systems that allow the behavior to take place. And that's a big job. That's a lot to do there. And many people to play their parts. And I know in the book that you talk in more detail about that. But I just wanted to ask you, because I've also interviewed a number of women, most of whom haven't given evidence or testimony like you did in such a public way where, you know, people I was reading, even if they don't remember everything that went on, they knew to keep the television on, you know, when you were making your comments. This was a moment of history in the making for so many reasons. But some of the women I've spoken to who have spoken out have regretted it. It has been very difficult for all sorts of reasons.

It's changed the course of their life and some of their professional life as well as well as their personal life have you ever regretted it talking out anita because it must have shaped the rest of your life in ways you couldn't have imagined well every moment has not been one of joy looking back on it of course until you regret the pain it caused you you regret the pain it caused you. You regret the pain it caused your family, friends. I had friends who lost jobs, who were ostracized at their workplaces. I had family members who lost relationships and had to move on because of what happened to me.

My job was threatened. My life was threatened. So of course you regret those things. But would I do it again? And the answer is yes, I would do it again. But I'm fortunate even today when people say to me, you know, what do you tell people who have a problem or experiencing harassment or, you know, are being abused, especially around sexual harassment, I don't tell them automatically that you should file a complaint because I still know that there are systems that will practically destroy them. And more importantly, that there are systems that are not going to treat them fairly. And so

they will get into a process that will ultimately leave them feeling like they shouldn't have even bothered. I tell them to know what their resources are, to know what the systems are, know what the other options moving forward are. But then ultimately, it is an individual's choices about how to do it. What I want to fight for is the day when people go into a process and feel that they are treated fairly and that they have a fair chance to be heard and to have some accountability in every process. And that is what we all deserve. You know, I had a young woman write me once who said that she had been sexually assaulted in her college,

that she filed a complaint at the college, that in the complaint, she was able to be heard. She was able to bring her case. She was able to ask for some reckoning and accountability. She felt she was treated fairly afterwards. She didn't even tell me what the outcome was, but that she felt the process worked. And she said it was because things changed after the hearing. That's one success story. It's not enough. And it certainly isn't what I hear over and over again, or what you read about in the newspapers, whether it's the papers in the United States,

or it's the papers in the UK. And I just like to say, I do believe that we can do this. I do believe that we deserve better, that we can change, and that the urgency is now. And I believe it because of all the information, all the knowledge, all the wisdom that we have gathered over the last 30 years, because of all the activism, especially activism of young people and the greater awareness that we have around Black feminist thinking that is helping in communities of color. I know that we have to take all of that energy and all of that knowledge and put it together towards solutions and that those solutions have to start at the top with our leaders, the CEOs and the presidents, even the president of the United States. Professor Anita Hill and her book Believing Our 30-Year Journey to End Gender

Violence is out now. The Gramophone Awards, the classical music version of the Grammys, will be streaming live from seven o'clock this evening. Fatma Saeed is an Egyptian opera singer and is the winner of this year's Song Category Award. I can also exclusively reveal on Woman's Hour that she is also the recipient of this year's Young Artist Award. And previous Young Artist Gramophone Award recipients in the last 30 years include Lise Davidson, Yuja Wang and Benjamin Grosvenor.

It's seen as a precursor of an international performing career. So let me start by saying congratulations, Pathma. Thanks for joining us. Thank you, Emma. Thanks so much. It's been a pretty exceptional year for you. You've already won, I believe, two BBC Music Magazine Awards in April for Newcomer of the Year and the Vocal Award for your Warner classic album, El Nor.

We're going to hear a bit of music shortly. And I could carry on, and you've just won two gramophones or about to this evening. Is that the full suite? Yes, I think so. But seriously, what does tonight mean to you? And what drives you? It means a huge deal to me.

I mean, I've been following the Gramophone Award since I basically started studying, since many years. So it's a huge deal to receive an award from the Gramophone. Also, it just means a lot to me to get it as a young artist who's just starting with my, it's the first album, it's the first step into my discography. And it just means a lot that it can be recognized this way especially from the gramophone awards so I'm really really happy you're part of a new generation of Egyptian singers what is the history of Egyptian opera music well in Egyptian opera music opera music is hard to talk about Egyptian opera music, but we had an opera since the mid 19th century.

And I remember Verdi's, the premiere we had was Rigoletto, Verdi, of course, and we also had Verdi's Aida premiere at the Cairo Opera House in the mid 19th century. I think it was 1871. And we always had opera. I mean, I remember the first person who took me to the opera was my grandmother. So also like the opera culture continued

throughout the 20s and the 30s and the 40s and things have changed a little bit in the last year, as I would say. It's not as essential as it was earlier in the 20th century. But was it a very different route for you to take to perhaps look at this for what the type of music you wanted to make or what did those around you make of that? Absolutely.

It was a different, definitely in comparison to my generation, to when they have studied. My friends studying opera was something completely different, especially 11 years ago when I had to move out of the country not to study engineering or law, but to study music. So this was a big deal and something also very, very different than what my friends have gone through. Let's hear a bit from one of the tracks on your album, Elnor. Tell us, what are we listening to there, Fatma?

That's definitely not opera, so just in case anyone thinks that's opera. This is a song by, the words are by the Lebanese poet and philosopher, Gibran Khalil Gibran, whom I really, really love. And it's called Give Me the Flute and Sing. And it's a very philosophical, very poetic song. And it's the Arabic part of my album.

This is one of the few Arabic songs I presented on my album. Give me the flute and sing. I just wanted to make sure our listeners heard that. I think the line slightly went as you said that. And tell us what's being talked about. So it's about the eternity of music, which is a topic I love. Everyone would think, yeah, of course, it has a lot a huge like love theme aspect in the song but it's about uh music and how the tones of the flute will or of music

basically flute is the metaphor will remain forever while we as in humans we're only temporary temporarily here in in this world and we're just like like like water that will eventually not not it can just fade away with time however music is something that can be there for eternity it can endure in in terms of the inspiration for the album do you draw on lots of different writers or or how do you get your inspiration for the music in terms of my last album? Yes. Well, I wanted something that is close to my musical tastes and something that I can personally relate to. I grew up listening a lot, listening to a lot of Spanish music, a lot of French music, a lot of Italian music and English music. So this multicultural aspect that is also very present in the album has a lot

to do with how I was raised so and and I always think that people tend to talk about differences between cultures but I I believe yeah this is true there are differences however musically speaking there is so much in common than what we think more in common than what we think and my idea was to musically connect like I focused on three different cultures to connect the French the Spanish and the Arabic culture and my research was basically on how these cultures at one point in time had something to do with each other and that is that's very clear in in the musical history that we can um that we can see and that's basically that I brought that music into light that connects these three cultures together.

That's a wonderful, wonderful thought. And a lot of truth in that, that we often do talk or seem to be debating the differences and not necessarily what connects. And for you now, with a clutch of more awards under your belt, as it were,

what's the next goal, the next aim? What are you hoping to do? That's always a difficult question to ask an Egyptian because I'm not really a planner I try not to plan so much and I'm quite anxious about you know thinking about what I'm going to do I just think about I try to think about today and I try to enjoy what I'm doing I try to make sure that I'm singing what I like and I'm putting programs and and and just putting nice concepts for my programs that that just fit my my musical tastes and I think this this was also a little bit the the secret of Elnur a lot of people when I when I put the program on paper of this album they were not very convinced with the idea and they were not very convinced with the idea

and they were not very convinced that this is something that might work. But one of the things that I really would love to do more, and that's what I plan to do in the future, is to stick to my gut feeling, to what I believe I can sing in an honest way and that can really, hoping that it arrives to people's hearts.

So I hope that I can do more of that. Fatma Saeed, a name to remember if you don't already know it. Thank you very much for talking to us and congratulations. Thank you, Emma. Thanks so much. Again, just talking about one of our earlier conversations about talking to strangers. I love this from Jean, who says, My mother would come home after a train journey with a plethora of fascinating life histories of fellow passengers, much to the embarrassment of my husband. I have a habit of doing the same.

You're a woman after my own heart there. Alison says, I talk to people all the time in the street, on the train, in shops, everywhere. For me, it would be weird not to do this. I haven't been arrested yet. And from Jenny here. Many years ago, I was deeply depressed. My abusive marriage was unravelling and I found it difficult not to cry almost all of the time. I read somewhere that smiling triggered the release of endorphins that made you happier. I also worried that if I didn't smile, the lines on my face as I grew older would fix me in an unhappy look. So I started to fix my smile on my face to whatever I felt. I would do it regardless. To my astonishment, people started smiling back, talking to me. Just generally, my relationship with people around me

changed. This may sound strange, but it changed my life. It built my confidence. And now I'm naturally quite smiley most of the time. And I'm constantly having conversations with people. I'm now in my mid-60s and of course it becomes much easier and there's no misreading of smiling at young men or teasing young women but that's what changed for Jenny and how she decided to make that change. And another one here, Katie says, once on my way back from working in London on the train to Manchester, I got chatting to the woman sitting next to me towards the end of the journey. The train arrived. We said, nice to meet you.

Goodbye. And then we bumped into each other 10 minutes later on a tram. We both said how tired we were from work and the journey. She then told me she had three children and now her husband would go out for a run. The minute she got back, she'd have to get all the three children to go to bed.

I was living alone at the time and a brave move. I said, well, I'm not doing anything. If you fancy a drink, you can go home a bit later. We jumped off the tram at the next stop, went to the pub for a pint. We had a good chat and then we went our separate ways home. We never exchanged names or numbers. Why would we? It was a completely spontaneous thing. And it still makes me smile. Thank you so much for sharing that and all of your stories today. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

What's the link between poisoned underpants? They wanted something that rubs against your skin. A plot to kill Nelson Mandela. To find a poison that would cause cancer and have him die shortly afterwards. And the deadly riots in South Africa this year. I'm Andrew Harding with a tale of politics and paranoia. Some people wanted me dead. Oh, and the link is Jacob Zuma, South Africa's former president. And indeed, it was quite a strong poison. That's Poison from BBC Radio 4.

To listen to all five episodes, just search for Seriously on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.