Woman's Hour - Ann Widdecombe remembered, Widow's Fight campaign, Bayeux tapestry replica

Episode Date: July 10, 2026

Ann Widdecombe's political career spanned decades, serving as Conservative MP for Maidstone for 23 years, and a minister in John Major's government, then later becoming an MEP and joining Reform UK in 2023. She was also well known for her TV appearances including taking part in Strictly Come Dancing. Kylie speaks to her colleague in the Conservative party Baroness Anne Jenkin and BBC political correspondent Nick Eardley.Campaigners and a cross-party group of MPs and peers presented a petition to Downing Street yesterday, signed by over 100,000 people, urging the government to increase bereavement support for the first time in nearly a decade. Widow’s Fight – who started the petition - say bereaved young families are falling into poverty. Kylie is joined by Holly O’Connor from Widow's Fight and Caroline Voaden, Liberal Democrat MP for South Devon, who was widowed when her children were young, and is supporting the campaign.The Bayeux Tapestry arrived in London in the early hours of this morning, under the cover of darkness, the first time it has left France for over 900 years. Meanwhile in Cambridgeshire, one woman has been painstakingly recreating the tapestry for the last decade.  Mia Hansson joins Kylie to explain why she took on this massive project.This week we have heard about three different new diagnostic tests being developed for endometriosis, a condition thought to affect one in 10 women. We find out what these tests are, how long before they are available, and whether they could reduce the average nine year wait for a diagnosis in the UK. Kylie Pentelow hears from Evelyn Scott, author of A Bloody Scandal - How Medicine Fails Women in Pain and Elisabeth Bean, an NHS consultant gynaecologist and diagnostics chair of the British Society for Gynaecological Endoscopy.Saint Olga of Kyiv, patron saint of Ukraine has her saint’s day tomorrow. In Ukraine, she’s a beloved religious figure, but she was also a real woman, known for exacting brutal revenge on those who crossed her. BBC Ukrainian’s Irena Taranyuk joins Kylie to discuss Olga’s mythological story, what she symbolises for Ukrainians and why her story is still relevant to women today.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Growing businesses deal with the same problem, too many tools, too much back and forth and not enough time. Odu helps bring it all together. It's an all-in-one business management platform, fully integrated from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, so your team can spend less time chasing information and focus on growth. Whether you're in retail, manufacturing or service, Odo gives you one place to manage your business. Visit Odo.com to book a demo. It's OD-O-O.com. When it's time to scale your business, it's time for Shopify.

Get everything you need to grow the way you want. Like, all the way. Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your chichings from every channel, right in one spot, and turn real-time reporting into big-time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today.

Hello, this is Kylie Pentalo and you're listening to the Women's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Thanks for your company this very warm Friday morning. Coming up today, the widows calling for more financial support after their partner dies. They currently get £350 a month for 18 months and that amount hasn't changed for almost a decade. We'll be speaking to one woman who had to go back to work full time after her husband died while her children were still young. Also, three new tests for endometriosis. Currently, it can take an average of nine years to diagnose with women often in terrible pain.

So can these new tests make a difference? As always, we'd love to hear your thoughts on anything you hear today. There are so many ways that you can get in touch. On most smart speakers, you can say Alexa Ask BBCC, sounds to send a comment. You can text the program. The number is 84844, or you can send a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 0-3700-100-444. Also, you've probably heard that the Bayou tapestry arrived in London in the dead of night last night. Well, it's going on display at the British Museum in September. We'll be speaking to a woman, though, who's creating her very own version. She's been at it for 10 years,

and she hopes to finish it next year. We'll hear from her shortly. But first, as you will have heard, former Conservative Minister turned Reform UK spokeswoman Anne Whittaker has died aged 78. Her political career spanned decades, including serving as MP for Maidstone and Kent for 23 years. Here's Anne on Woman's Hour back in 2010,

talking to Jenny Murray as she prepared to stand down from Westminster. I think one of the things I would say to people, coming in now, I would say, look, it isn't just you you're bringing onto the microscope, it's all your family as well. And if you've got anybody in the family who's had a difficulty that you don't want rehearsed, think twice. Now, I wouldn't have had to say that 23 years ago, because although the press has always been very interested in what MPs are doing, they were slightly more restrained about families. I would also say to people, what do you want to do? because the power of a backbencher has quite undeniably declined.

Now, it's open to any government to reverse that. It's not insoluble, but I would need a lot of convincing that it would be seriously reversed. Now, you have said that being an MP meant that you had to learn to be alone and to disappoint people. Yes. How difficult was that? Learning to disappoint people is quite difficult because people rely on your vote, and sometimes you have to look them in the eye and you have to say, sorry, I'm not going to do the thing that you want me to do

because I believe in something completely different. And I know you've always relied on me, but it's too bad. This is what I believe. And you've got to be able to do that. And if you can't do that, you really shouldn't come in because you've got to be true to what you believe. So it is quite difficult learning to disappoint. Alone is not so difficult because I think I'm naturally that way,

by which I don't mean I'm antisocial, I'm not. but I, for example, I like my own company very much indeed, just as well, because I might be the only one who does. We must mention the most famous thing I think that you will be remembered for, and this was something of the night. And I gather that you discussed with your priest whether you should describe Michael Howard as having something of the night about him. How much of your political activity has been driven by religious conviction? I didn't actually discuss the phrase with him, but, um, I did discuss the whole business of denouncing Michael and making a speech, and I wanted to be quite certain that I was doing it for the right reasons

and not just because I was angry and certainly not because I felt vengeful or anything like that. So I would discuss anything of a serious nature that I had any doubts about at all, and I certainly did about that with a priest. I would not necessarily take the priest's view as gospel, but I would certainly value the input. That was Anne Willecombe speaking. there to Jenny Murray back in 2010. Well, joining me to talk about her political life

is Baroness Anne Jenkins, founder of Women to Win, that seeks to support and encourage more conservative women into Parliament. And also, we'll be speaking in a moment, Nick Erdley, the BBC's political correspondent. First, Baroness Jenkin, if I can start with you. We, of course, have to acknowledge, don't we, that Anne held views that many didn't agree with. But she was unafraid to voice those opinions

on women priests, gay rights, immigration to name but a few. What do you remember about her when she was a conservative MP? Well, I remember exactly that, Kylie. She wasn't afraid to voice her opinions and she stuck to them. And I thought that clips you just played with Jenny Murray, which was 16 years ago, chimes, you know, very closely with what a lot of people think, that it is a serious business going into politics,

that you've got to be serious, you need to be more serious. She wasn't a frivolous person, has she quite, clearly expanded there. But I thought that point she made about disappointing people was so relevant to today. And I think too many people in politics today want to sit on the fence and please people too much. And I believe that's going to become that her brand of politics, not what exactly she believed in, but is going to become far more fashionable than it has been for the past 16 years when she retired, since she retired. Did she see herself as a woman politician? No. And nor did many of her generation. And I mean, nor did Mrs. Thatcher,

really, although I think perhaps she used her femininity more. I mean, she was one of 17 conservative women out of 376 when she was first elected. And I think that that, you know, she feels she got there on merit. She obviously thought quite hard about whether, you know, you could see it from the clip, whether it was the right thing to do. She didn't have children, as she rightly pointed out. She didn't have the impact on family that so many women have today. But no, she saw herself as having views and wanting to get stuff done. And that was, I think, as I said, you know, a bit more fashionable today than it was at the time.

You started women to win in 2005. What did she think of you supporting women into politics? Not much. we had a bit of a fistic us over it. I think what she didn't appreciate is that what we do is that we're not, we don't promote all women shortlist or anything, but we do go and look for more women who might have what it takes because women who are by nature risk averse don't always think that politics is for them.

And I think so we go and look for campaigners, people who are robust and resilient and know exactly what they stand for. and then we support them through the process. So I think she thought that we were trying to, you know, promote women ahead of men. We just want the very best, but we do want to not miss a generation of women who aren't even aware of the job. So she disagreed with me and I think she just misunderstood what we're trying to achieve. And I believe you once took her to a conservative lady's lunch. Can you tell us what happened?

I do remember that. I remember driving her down to Colchester and I can't remember what she called her rather am I allowed to say massive bosom on the programme but she had a special word for it but anyway I remember her fiddling with the seatbelt all the time and being quite hard to talk to in the car and that was born out when we got there

I mean our Conservative ladies absolutely loved her but she was hard to she didn't have much small talk. I mean, when she got on her feet to make the speech, you know, they cheered and roared with excitement. But I also remember the ladies sitting next to her struggling to find the small talk. You know, it was sort of, it's for apples.

Do you like apples? She didn't really respond in the way that they were used to. So she wasn't a hellfellow, well-met, chatty type parliamentarian. But she was clear and they did love her. It was three years after becoming an MP that Anne got a foot on the ministerial ladder as a junior social security minister and was then promoted to the employment brief. In 1995, she was promoted to prisons minister. She served as a shadow health secretary from 98 to 99,

shadow home secretary, 99 to 2001. And she returned to politics, as many will remember, as a prominent Brexit campaigner in 2019. Nick, can I bring you in here? Nigel Farage credited Widdickham with playing a decisive role in getting Brexit, as he said, over the line. How big a player was she when it came to that campaign? I mean, she was certainly important to the Brexit Party in giving them a huge boost at that point in 2019. If you cast your mind back, it was a time when there were battles all the time in the House of Commons about how to get Brexit done, as Boris Johnson put it. Nigel Farage was arguing that the Tories were a busted flush and weren't able to do it.

and here he had this lifelong prominent Eurosceptic who was prepared to make that leap from the Conservatives to the Brexit Party. I think it was certainly a reluctant decision made by Anne Wicke. She stood and became an MEP, but she was expelled from the Conservatives, and I think that was something that probably was not the outcome that she wanted.

But for the Brexit party at the time to have somebody who had been such a well-known Conservatives when she was in Parliament. And perhaps for a younger generation, such a well-known television personality and someone who'd been on so much reality TV over the past 15 years. It was certainly something of a coup.

Yeah, I'll reflect that in a moment. But I just want to mention the more recent political field that she went into because she joined Reform UK, didn't she, in 2023. What was the motivation behind that move, do you think, Nick? I think there's an acceptance in some of the old guard of the Conservative Party that isn't delivering what they want anymore.

You know, Anne Weddicam has always been forthright and not shy in expressing her views. And she was one of those conservatives who decided that Nigel Farage did have something to offer. She spoke for the party on immigration and justice. Many Radio 4 listeners will have heard her on any questions and other places over the past few years speaking about just that. but she was one of that group of conservatives who decided that something needed to change, particularly after some of the things that had gone on over the past five years or so in the Conservative Party, thought that it might be time for something else.

And she was certainly a big fan of Nigel Farage. In a statement, her agents have said that she loved the cut and thrust of political debate. Do you think that's what she'll be most remembered for? Yes, by a lot of people, I'm sure it will. I mean, there are, as An Jenkins was just reflecting, there are a lot of politicians these days who I speak to on a daily basis

who will maybe slightly guard what they say and are a bit reluctant to be too forthright in expressing their views. That is certainly not what Anne Whitacom was like. She was very happy to talk about almost any issue and tell you exactly what she thought. And, you know, particularly nowadays, having someone like that on the airwaves on a regular basis,

I think for a lot of listeners was refreshing. I'm sure a lot of people didn't agree with everything she said, but a lot of people liked the fact that she was prepared to say it. Baroness Jenkin, can I come back to you? Nick mentioned Anne's appearances on TV, and of course many of our listeners will remember her from Strictly Come Dancing when she partnered with Anton Du Beck. What was your reaction when you heard she was taking part in that? Well, I've seen quite a lot of politicians who come out and then, you know, take a bit of a look around them and think, is that what the public think about me, but there's more to me. I know she talked about glumphant across the dance floor, but I think she just wanted to

show a different side to herself. I mean, I saw a quote that she said, this sort of prolonged frivolity I haven't had in years, and I'm having fun. So I think there's an element of truth in that, and she dyed her hair and she lost some weight and put her previous career behind her. So I think it was a little bit about reinventing herself and doing something that was sort of outside her comfort zone, but she obviously really enjoyed doing it. I mean, we forget she also wrote a lot of novels. I mean, she was a clever woman. She was, you know, there was more to her, and I think she was keen to show that side of her. And I think people will, I don't remember her for all kinds of reasons,

and if it's for strictly and coming outside her comfort zone and doing something else that she enjoyed and had fun doing them, so be it. Baroness Anne Jenkins, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts there after the death of Anne Whittakeram was announced. She has died at the age of 78. Also thank you to our BBC political correspondent Nick Erdley. Now, listener week is fast approaching. If there's something that's affecting you,

Something that's changed the way you see the world or an issue that you think really deserves more attention. Now, it could be about work or money, friendships, family life, education, technology, fashion, something completely different. Now, at Women's Hour, we're always looking to hear about the experiences, the challenges, debates and joys that matter most to women. Sometimes the most interesting discussions start with a conversation maybe around the cafe table or on a WhatsApp group or even maybe just in any of. your own head. So please get in touch. We really want to hear yours and looking forward to hearing them because there's always some fantastic stories that come out of listener week. So text the program. The usual number is 84844. On social media we're at BBC Women's Hour or of course you can also email us through our website. We are looking forward to hearing your stories. But next, campaigners

and a cross-party group of MPs and peers presented a petition to Downing Street. yesterday, signed by over 100,000 people, urging the government to increase bereaved support for the first time in nearly a decade. Widows Fight, the group which launched the petition in January, is calling for reforms to bereavement support payments or BSPs so that families with and without dependent children receive help beyond 18 months with an annual uprating to reflect the increased cost of living. Well, to talk about this, I'm joined by Holly O'Connor, of the core campaign team for Widows Fight and also Caroline Voden,

Liberal Democrat MP for South Devon. Welcome to you both to the programme. Caroline, I'd like to start with you. Just to make this clear to our listeners, what is bereavement support payment? And is it something that you get automatically? Hello. So bereavement support payment is a tax-free payment

that is given to people who are bereaved, those with children and without. if you have children, then you get a higher rate than so you would get £350 a month for the maximum of 18 months. And if you don't have children, you are entitled to £100 a month. Now, you have to claim it within three months of a death. And for every month later than that that you claim, you lose a month's money. So you don't still get 18 months money. You get a month less for every month you delay. And there are many people who don't know about it. Or you know, obviously it might take a while to get yourself sorted and get your paperwork done after, you know, maybe a sudden or traumatic loss.

So there are lots of things about this benefit that are, it's really time for it to be reviewed. It hasn't, it was introduced in 2017 and it hasn't been uprated since then. So it's now worth £4,000 less than it was then. But it replaces widowed parents allowance, which was a much more generous. payment that would last. For those with children, it lasted for as long as child benefit would last. So until a child was 16 or left education. Holly, I just want to ask you here, we should point out that it does include cohabiting couples. That's a change that has happened since 2023, so you don't have to be married to receive bereavement support payments. Holly, can I

bring you in here? Why was this petition started in January? Well, our lead, petitioner Caroline Booth lost her husband in 2025. And when she had looked into what support was available to her and her sons, she was shocked to find that it had been reduced so dramatically from the previous support. Until people are in a situation where they're faced with a loss like this, they just don't realise that a widow's pension isn't what it previously was. So Caroline started the petition. We're both members of Wayward and Young, the charity that support people who've had this kind of loss.

And we got in touch with each other through them. I offered to help and it kind of snowballed from there, really. And Holly, if you're happy to, can you tell me about your story? Because, of course, you have a personal reason why you're involved in this campaign. Yeah, of course. My husband Andy was 43 when he died. He had skin cancer. So on days like this, I keep telling people to wear the sun cream.

He left, obviously, me and our daughter, April, who, when he died, was only five. The support, the bereavement support payments, I wasn't aware that that existed. I was told by my funeral director. And once it stopped, it made an incredible difference to, you know, my finances. You know, I'm now, you know, running a home and everything that goes with it on a sole salary. Andy was the main breadwinner. He was the one who earned more than me. I, you know, worked part-time to, you know, be able to look after our daughter.

He was medically retired from work 15 months before he died, so there was a lot of complication there for me with finances even before we lost him. I'm actually in quite a unique position because my sister-in-law was widowed in 2016. She was unmarried and she had to go through the previous campaign to be able to get. widowed parents allowance. And Andy and I both signed the petition for that at the time. So to have two women in the same family who have both been through campaigns and are going through a campaign to be recognised by the government as being deserving of this type of support is pretty unique really. you know, to see my sister-in-law go through that

and for her to have to be so strong for her son and to have to dig deep to demand those changes for herself and watch that happening was incredibly upsetting at the time, especially for Andy for his own sister. So to now be in a position where I'm having to do the same thing and I'm essentially asking the government, why is my daughter less deserving of support than her cousin?

You know, it's an incredibly hard thing to do. It's not something that I want to have to do. I want to just be able to focus on getting my daughter through the grief and us living our life. But this is the position I'm in. And there are a lot of widows out there. in a much more difficult set of circumstances than me. I'm not just doing this for me in April.

I'm doing it for the people who don't have the capacity right now to fight this. And, you know, we're really hoping that we can make some changes for a lot of people across the country. Caroline, you were obviously listening to what Holly was saying there. And you are also a bereaved parent. You lost your husband, Nick, when your children were very young. Can you tell us about what happened and then also what you were entitled to in terms of support? Yeah, sure. So Nick died in 2003. He was diagnosed with esophageal cancer when our second child was just five months old. I was still breastfeeding. And he died a year later. So the girls were one and three.

and I'm one of the lucky ones in terms of these benefits because I was bereaved before 2017. So I was entitled to widowed parents allowance, which was a tax-free weekly benefit for widows. We should say this includes widowers, so this is men as well as women. And it was designed to support surviving parents who had a dependent child. And I got at more than £600 a month.

I can't remember the exact figure. But there was a basic payment, which was about that. And it was also calculated on how much national insurance your partner or husband or wife had paid. Now, you know, Nick had paid over 20 years worth of national insurance payments. And he's never going to get a state pension. You know, he never gets that back from the state. because he died at 42. So I, you know, the women who have,

Holly and the other women in Widows Fire are absolutely amazing. And yesterday was a real joy to see them, you know, reach that milestone and hand that petition into number 10 Downing Street, which, you know, is a special moment for anybody who does a petition. But, you know, channeling their grief into fighting this injustice because it is an injustice. And I feel really strongly. I'm a really big believer in prevention rather than cure. And I'm a really, I believe in the necessity to support a surviving parent so that he or she can support their children.

Because children's grief is really complicated. And it doesn't end after 18 months. Because as children grow up and mature, they face their grief in different ways. They sort of look, you know, they think again about death and what it means. and it's every school play, it's every sports day, it's graduation, it's weddings, you know, it goes on and on. And if you can support the surviving parent, then they can give a more stable, secure sort of base for that child, which means there's a much better chance that that child will grow up without, you know, having mental health issues, complicated experiences at school, you know, we'll do better at school and can have better life term outcomes.

Let me bring in a statement here that the Department for Work and Pensions has given us. Spokespences have said losing a loved one is devastating and we understand the financial impact it can have on families. Bereavement support payment provides short-term financial support with higher amounts paid for those with children. Further help with everyday living costs may be available through benefits such as universal credit, which provide targeted means-tested support to those in greatest need. Caroline, what's your response to that statement? Well, I just think it shows the complete lack of understanding of what bereavement is and the lifelong impact it can have. To think that you can give someone money for 18 months and then everything's fine and they just go on their way.

It's insensitive. It's insulting. I, you know, the question of means testing keeps coming up, doesn't it? about benefits, but I think you also have to look at investing to save and what you gain in the long run by supporting a family in need. So you might have a family on two really good salaries. You know, let's say you're both earning £40,000, your joint incomes $80,000. One person becomes terminally ill and has to leave their job. So that's £40,000 gone. The other partner, husband or wife might have to go part-time to look after, you know, I did. I went part-time, looked after a dying

husband, a toddler and a baby, you know, it's not an easy ride. And suddenly you're down to a family income of 15 or 20,000 pounds. You've still got all the same outcomes. And then you're dealing with your own grief and the grief of your children and a school system that isn't really set up to support or understand bereaved children. And so it goes on. So all we're saying is, is that these children are in a special category and they need to be treated differently and just saying, oh, the universal credit, you'll be fine, is a complete misunderstanding of what the reality actually is. Holly, you got the 100,000 signatures, as we said, that you need to now have this discussed in Parliament. So can you just tell us what's next and what you're hoping to achieve?

Yeah, absolutely. So exciting stuff for the next few weeks. We have got a joint open letter which has been signed by multiple bereavement charities. That is going out early next week to all 650 UK MPs. We'll be calling for them to support the parliamentary debate. We're just waiting on confirmation of the date that that will go ahead at the moment. We are going to be working to engage with those MPs, making sure that they understand the issues, that they have constituents,

that they can represent during that debate. We have appointed legal counsel and we have been granted legal aid. So we're looking into the potential for pushing a court case to force changes if the government won't do it themselves following the debate. So lots and lots of background work going on and really just sort of. see what happens next, really. We will respond as we need to, but Widows Fight certainly aren't going away. We're actually in the process of setting up a charity.

We're going to be called the Widows Fight Foundation, and long term we're going to be looking to fundraise and support widows ourselves as well, perhaps through grants and signposts into other charities where it's needed. Holly, we really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for speaking to us. And also thank you to Caroline Vodin, Liberal Democrat MP for South Devon. We have had a comment in on this. Somebody said, your talk about widow's payment is resonating so strongly. I did benefit from the payment when my partner died nearly two years ago. I found out about the benefit from a friend who'd heard it mentioned on your program. Made a huge difference, but ended recently. My daughter's just finished six forms. So the last few months have been. struggle losing the benefit. I'm self-employed and have struggled to keep going due to many different factors,

dropping overnight from two incomes to one, has been and is still hard to navigate. Thank you so much for getting in touch with us on that. Don't forget you can find information links to support by searching for BBC Action Line. Now, just a reminder that to listen to us on your smart speaker, you can say Play Radio 4. And if you want to catch up with anything that you might have missed,

You can say Alexa asked BBC sounds to rewind to the time that you want to hear. He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballandour Award five times. He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right.

Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Christiano Ronaldo. That's a good bad billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Now, you might have heard this morning about the Bay of Tapestry

because it's arrived in London was under the cover of darkness and it's the first time it's left France for the best part of the millennium. It's believed to have been created here nearly a thousand years ago. Meanwhile, in Cambridgeshire, one woman has been painstakingly

recreating the tapestry for the last decade. and Mia Hanson joins me now to talk about this. Well, Mia, I mean, where do I start? I guess I have to say, why? Why did you take on this huge challenge? Well, hello, first of all, thanks for having me. Well, because I was bored, that's a short answer.

And I can't knit or crochet. But I can work a small needle really, really well. And I do like a big challenge. Okay, and what were you doing at the time when you started this? You obviously have some experience in needlework. Yes, I do. My nan taught me to do cross-stitch when I was five. And we had textile in school back in Sweden.

So, you know, needed to say that was my favourite subject. So when I started doing Viking reenactment in 2001, I had to make my own clothes. And of course, I want to decorate them. And then I did for family and friends and museums and schools and you name it. I did it. but at the end of 2015 I had no orders coming in and I got bored making hats and hoods and glove puppets

and when I made my 40th finger puppet and I thought you know what, that's enough. I need a project I can't finish in a hurry. So I heard about this man who had done a half-scale version of the Bay of Tapestry and I thought I can do that. But to me it's no point making a half-scale. I might as well do all of it in full scale. So I did.

Wow. And I believe you had a bit of an issue though initially with the fabric that you bought. Tell me about that. Well, it wasn't initially. I found out very recently. You see, because I needed to buy all the fabric at the same time. So I bought, well, I paid for 40 metres of linen, thinking if I cut that in half, stitch it together, I'll get 80 metres. It shrunk in the wash. But I still had, you know, a little bit of spare until I went to washed the penultimate five metres and the bolt finished. So I paid for 40 metres.

I only got 35 so now I don't actually have enough to complete. Wow. So what are you going to do? Well, luckily, I run a Facebook group with currently 14,600 people who are totally invested in my work. And they have been scouring the world for fabric. And one lady, living in battle, believe it or not, she found. a piece of fabric that will do. It's very similar, not exactly the same,

and she's promised to hand deliver it to me. So I can finish it. If I can find the exact same, that would be brilliant. But otherwise, I'm kind of good to go. That's good news. Now, I don't know about you, but I studied the Beu Tapestry in school, and I went to visit it when I was a kid as well.

You're from Sweden, so did you study it? No. No, I didn't even know about it until I came to England, I think. A friend of mine went to, we used to do language school, you know, three weeks in England and to learn the language living with a family. And my friend went to Hastings. She didn't tell me about the Bayer Tapestry. She told me about the Battle of Hastings, so I knew about that.

But the actual tapestry I found out about when I came here. And we took the wrong turn going to Spain, took the wrong turn coming out of Calais and ended up in Bayer, so we did go and see it. But that was 11 years before I started. started this project. Oh my goodness. And so as you said, you've been doing it for 10 years, haven't you? So, so you've nearly finished, really. I am. How are you feeling about it? Oh, I used to say that it's like Schrodinger's cat, but Schrodinger's tapestry. I want to finish it to say that I've done it, you know, the achievement. But then I don't want to finish it because

then it'll be done. But now I have a list of things to do where I'm really excited. about. So yeah, I can't wait to finish. It's fantastic to speak to you. What a project, Mia, thank you very much indeed. Now this week has seen news that not one, not two, but three new non-invasive tests are being developed to diagnose endometriosis, a debilitating condition in which tissue similar to the lining of the uterus grows outside of the womb. It causes a range of symptoms, including severe chronic pain and heavy periods. Despite the condition affecting one in ten women,

patients on average wait nine years before receiving a diagnosis in the UK. So what are these tests and how do they work? And what impact could they have on patients' lives? I'm joined by Evelyn Scott, an endometriosis patient, an author of A Bloody Scandal, How Medicine Fails Women in Pain. And also Elizabeth Bean, an NHS consultant gynaecologist, and Diagnostics Chair of the British Society for Gynaecological Endoscopy, which is a specialist society promoting the advancement of minimal access surgery techniques.

Welcome to you both. Elizabeth, if I can start with you. Here at Women's Hour, we have, of course, spoken many times of the issues faced by women with endometriosis. Can you quickly just remind us what endometriosis is? Certainly. So it's a very common condition affecting proper. approximately one in ten women or those assigned female at birth. And so that accounts for about 1.5 million in the UK. And it's quite varied, but it's because there's tissue similar to the lining of the womb outside of the womb. There are three main types of endometriosis, the peritoneal types,

where it affects the kind of superficial lining of the pelvis and the pelvic organs. There's ovarian endometiosis, which can cause blood-filled cysts in the ovaries. And there's deep endometriosis where you get lumps of tissue. And these are often associated with terrible inflammation, lots of scarring in the pelvis. And they can have a major, major life-altering effect on women. It's a real problem that affects many. And this is why earlier recognition and better care is of such great importance. And we said it takes an average of nine years to get a diagnosis.

But if you can describe from a kind of technical medical point of view, what are the challenges in diagnosing the condition? this is a really important thing and I'm so delighted that the government and nice have kind of recognised this call for action and attention to this area in how to achieve a diagnosis because that delay in diagnosis hasn't really altered for 20 years. So historically people would go through a laparoscopy, so a camera in the belly button under general anaesthetic to achieve a diagnosis. But actually over the last 20 years or so, there's been huge progression in both kind of techniques and technology in ultrasound and MRI.

So these modalities are really good at picking up ovarian endometeosis. MRI is used regularly to pick up deep endometeotosis, but they're not very good at picking up peritoneal endometriosis. There's some specialist ultrasound that, unfortunately, is not mainstream, that's really good at picking up subtle findings of endometriosis. That's an area I specialize in. But often patients are waiting on a diagnostic laparoscopy to achieve a diagnosis, And gynecology is one of those areas in the NHS that is under a huge amount of strain,

has the longest waiting list, is a real, real challenge with the elective recovery program to really get these patients into theatre. But it doesn't start there. Where it starts is in the community, in primary care, that their symptoms are listened to, their symptoms are recognised and that investigations are organised and that patients are referred into specialist centres, should they need more advanced diagnostic. So all of those contribute to these delays in achieving that. So that brings us to this week's news then.

So a new NHS draft guidance recommends two new tests to diagnose endometriosis, offered by some MPs in trusts taking part in the pilot scheme at the moment. So let's start with endotest. That test saliva, doesn't it? Can you tell us about that? Yeah, so the endot tests looks at a very small kind of, genetic particles called microRNAs that can be detected in saliva. It has gone through some initial kind of validation or testing, but the evidence that there is still very limited. It's seen

to see a particular pattern in these small particles in endometeosis, but what it can't tell us is what type of endometriosis it is, what organs it's affecting, or how someone will respond to treatment. It does not, it may be complementary, but it certainly doesn't replace a thorough clinical assessment, advanced imaging and care. That culture of care is something that needs addressing. So what about the other test then, Endoshaar? So this is a very different test. It involves a kind of an examination where electrodes similar to kind of an ECG when someone monitors the heart are put on the abdomen, a patient needs to lie still for 30 to 45 minutes, and it tests the electrical signals in the gut.

And these are early kind of evidence shows that they might have a particular signal that's associated with endometeosis. It costs probably about 350 pounds to perform, whereas the endotests costs 1381 pounds to perform. And again, we don't know what evidence there is, that it can pick up certain types of endometeosis. So the evidence is still very limited and it hasn't got undergone big validation studies. And certainly neither of these tests have been assessed for their use in primary care.

When I say primary care, I mean within the GP setting. And what about the blood test, the new blood test? So yes, this is really interesting and quite groundbreaking research come out of Edinburgh. And what they have found is when they looked at, I think it was 216 women in a research setting, So really robust study. They compared women with endometeotosis and those without, and they found that in the blood, there were higher levels of androgen,

which is this male hormone, but females have it too. And this is really promising. It's very, very early research stages, and there's a lot of kind of bigger, larger, robust studies that need to be done. But it does give us hope, cautious hope, that it might have a role in it as a diagnostic tool,

but also for directed therapies, if this is thought to be a problem for people with endometeosis. Evelyn, can I bring you in here? So you have endometriosis. I wonder what your reaction was when you heard about these new tests? So I'm really, really thrilled at that people are talking about endometriosis and that there seems to be movement. However, I am sceptical because I think that even if you have these tests,

they're not designed to be a single diagnosis. So even if you get it, it doesn't change anything. I mean, it doesn't mean you're going to get seen quicker. You're still going to end up on the same referral list and you're still going to wait. And I think also that could psychologically really affect you knowing that you may have this disease. And you're literally sitting there waiting, you know, and knowing that your body is being damaged, that it may be growing. So I think unless we change and we shake up the referral system and get that down and basically make sure that women are, seen quicker. It kind of isn't really a solution. I mean, it's great that it's being talked about,

but it doesn't really change a person's journey with endometriosis, which is problematic. And I do get the impression that sometimes these things are marketed spectacularly well to try and make it look like there's movement when actually there isn't movement at all. Because like Elizabeth said, you know, the data is very, you know, there isn't a lot of data at all. And what data there is, it's going to be very different when it's used in a clinical practice, in a clinical environment. So for me, I'm quite sceptical. I'm glad people are talking about it. But for me, we need to see more change and at different levels for this to truly help people with endometriosis. I should say we asked NHS England for a response, but haven't heard from them yet. I'm sure they would say, like you were just reflecting there, Evelyn and Elizabeth, that they are, these tests are, of course, in a pilot stage, you know, the early stages of them.

Elizabeth, what treatments are available now for people who do get that diagnosis? A very important question and care for women and mutiosis needs to be very much tailored to the individual because people have different fertility desires, they have different levels of symptoms. But generally I offer either expectant conservative or surgical, depending on their disease subtype and the risks associated. And I think some people manage really well with their condition. Knowing about it helps them. Knowledge is power, but they manage well. Hormonal options are often the case because estrogen stimulates endometrious, we think it's a hormonally sensitive condition. So there are lots of different hormonal options, such as the pill, the myrino-coil, other progestogens. And in some patients, we even give what's kind of colloquially termed false menopause. So we give in, injections or tablets that suppress the estrogen production from the ovaries with some ad back HRT to kind of minimise those side effects. But surgery can be relatively straightforward,

but it can be really highly complex, especially if there's significant bowel involvement, bladder involvement, blockage of kidney flow. So this is why we have specialist centres within the UK that Nice have a criteria for referral if patients have a really severe form of the disease. So there are a variety of different treatment options, not single one fits all, and it's often a bit of trial and error, but having a consultation and a humanised discussion with an expert is really beneficial for patients. Evelyn, your experiences led you to write your book, A Bloody Scandal, How Medicine Fells Women in Pain. Just finally, how are you doing now? I mean, I've had a hysterectomy. I had a hysterectomy last year, and actually I ran a hysterectomy last year. the book while I was recovering from the hysterectomy, which was pretty brutal, but it allowed

me to reflect on my journey. Like Elizabeth is saying, I've actually been put into menopause now, and I'm having abback HRT. Unfortunately, my pain is still there. It still affects me on a day-to-day basis. I've had to change gynecologist because my last gynecologist said that endometiosis is a disease of the pelvic cavity, which we know is not true. So the journey has been really, hard and it took 15 years for me to get a diagnosis. So it's been tricky and I just hope that my book helps women see where the systems are failing us and also it inspires these systems to change because it is possible to change. We just need to see more willingness to do so. We really appreciate your sharing your experience with us today. Thank you very much to author

Evelyn Scott and also to consultant gynecologist Elizabeth Bean. It's a very interesting to speak to them about this. We have had a comment on this. This person says, great news about new tests, but what about treatment post-diagnosis? Just what we're talking about? My 30-year-old daughter has struggled for years with no diagnosis by GPs until she finally paid for a private appointment. She's now on an NHS waiting list to see a specialist which could take up to another two years. Also, an NHS doctor, she is forced to leave shifts regularly when it flares up. Thank you very much for your comments. on that. Now just time to tell you about the Women's Our Guide to Life, which returns this Sunday, with the one-off edition recorded at the Crosswires Festival in Sheffield. Well, this time,

Nula and her guests are taking on speaking in public, something many of us struggle with. Viv Groskop is the author of How to Own the Room. She offers tips on how to turn down our inner critic. One of my favourite is from the writer Julia Cameron, and she advises having, a voice that you can actually hear and make it really loud in your head. And she calls hers Nigel. And it's a very annoying literary critic kind of person who says, oh, Julia, you're not very good at that, are you? And so you make up a silly voice in your head that allows you to see that this level of judgment is not necessary. For other people, it really helps if you think about turning that voice down.

You know, we don't want to switch it off completely because that's unrealistic, but either turning it into something that's a cartoon, sometimes people imagine like a gargoyle on your shoulder, to embody it in some way is useful, or equally just to turn it down. That was a vivid Groskop there, the Woman's Hour Guide to Life.

Speaking in public, why it feels so hard and how to do it anyway, drops on Sunday morning, and you can find it in the Woman's Hour feed on BBC Sounds. Now, St Olga of Kiev, patron saint of Ukraine, has her saints' day tomorrow. In Ukraine, she's a beloved religious figure, but she's also known for exacting elaborate revenge on those who crossed her. Now, a marble statue of Olga in central Kiev acquired a bulletproof vest at the start of Russia's war with Ukraine, with the inscription, She Needs Armor.

We can speak to BBC Ukrainians. Irena Taranyuk, who joins me now to talk about Olga and everything she stands for. Hello, Irenae, thanks very much for joining me this morning. Hello, Anita. It's good to be on Woman's Hour. It's Kylie, actually. Nice to see you. Let's start at the beginning then. Give us a bit of a sense of this mythical woman. Who was she? She sounds extremely intriguing. She is intriguing like probably any strong woman from the past. She ruled Kievan Rus, the principality of Kiev, in mid-10th century.

She became a very young widow and a single mother after a rival tribe, the Dreblands, killed her husband, the second of the Rurikid dynasty, Prince Igor of Kijor of Kij. apparently he was greedy. He wanted to collect tribute from the Dravlands twice, and he was punished, he was murdered, and she ruled as regent for almost 20 years in the mid-10th century, which was quite something. She is also credited with being the first Eastern European ruler

who introduced the elements of a legal system, because after she had satisfied her thirst for revenge and revenged the death of her spouse in a most gruesome manner, she also proved to be an astute stateswoman. She introduced the elements of elementary kind of primary taxation system. She delineated first borders of her principality. She also introduced the elements of the kind of local laws, which was a lot in the 10th century, Caevan, Rousse, or Principality of Kiev.

And she also was the first of Rurikides to adopt Christianity. She got baptized during her visit to the Holy Byzantium Empire, and she received baptism, converting into Christianity from the emperor Constantine. So she managed to achieve a lot, and we know about all those deeds, thanks to the chronicles, kind of descriptions of that early state, from the monks of Kiev Pachera,

Kewa Pachar Ska Lava, the Kiev Caves Monastery, that were written some two centuries later. We've talked a bit about her, we've mentioned the revenge tactics. Can you just tell us what she actually did after her husband's death? Okay, that was very gruesome for a morning, a woman's hour, but actually she had to be seen as ruthless and cruel and also devious. So when the dravians who assume that she is a young widow with a child, she would be easy to manipulate.

So they decided to send a delegation seeking her hand in marriage to the killer of her husband, the Dreblin Prince Mull. So when the delegation arrived in boats on Dnipra River to Kiev, she played along. She said that I will honor you guys.

So stay in your boats and my people will bring you to the palace tomorrow. in your boats. In the meantime, she ordered to build a massive trench. So the Dravlands were carried in their boats, and they assumed that it was a huge honour, but actually they were thrown into the deep trench and buried alive. So that was her revenge number one. And in the same line, she revenged her husband for the second time when another delegation more prominent was sent from the Dreblands and burned in the bathhouse.

Then in the third revenge, she asked the Dravians to organize a wake at the place where her husband was executed. So she came to that wake with loads of mead. She got the Dravians drunk and then had their sort of throat slit when they were asleep. So 5,000 people told, a said,

are described to have perished from the Dreblands. But even that was not enough for the bloodthirsty Olga. So she besieged the Dreblin capital, Escortosten. After a year's siege, the city would not yield. The capital would not yield. So she managed to conquer them with cunning. She suggested that she came with good intentions. She didn't want to revenge her husband anymore

because she has had enough of revenging him. so please let each household give me three pigeons and three sparrows, and that would be it, because I know how poor you are you don't want to starve to death, and the dravians did as all. They were so happy that finally this animosity, this war is over. But what she instructed her troops to do was to tie a piece of cloth dipped in sulphur to the legs of the birds, and in the night light them up. and let the birds fly home.

And homing pigeons brought the fire to all those wooden houses that went up in flames. And the dravelins had to abandon their city and half of them were killed and half of them were sort of sold into slavery. So as you can see, it's quite a story. Absolutely. We haven't got much time left. But I do want to mention that it is your birthday, Irina, tomorrow.

many happy returns for tomorrow, which is, as we said, the Olga's Saints Day. And I believe your parents were thinking about calling you Olga. What would you have thought of that? I would have hated it. I'm happy to be Irena and all Olga's I know. Actually, Ann Widdickham mentioned attributed at the beginning of the program would make a good Olga, very strong-headed, very straightforward, very strong-willed women. but because she's also a saint because she converted to Christianity,

so there is a duplicity to her character. And also, let's not forget, that all the deeds that were attributed to Olga were written by men, by monks, some two centuries later. So can we trust them to tell the truth? We don't know. But actually, in Orthodox Christianity, she is venerated as equal to the disciples of Jesus Christ. That's why she is called in Ukrainian Rivano Apostolna, equal to the apostles.

Quite a woman, I would say, on par with Cleopatra or Budica, you know. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for enlightening us on her. And as I said, many happy returns for tomorrow. Now, if you want to hear more about Olga of Keev's story ahead of her Saints Day celebrations, so you can listen to the Fifth Floors special

from the BBC World Service that is tomorrow at 1.30. We've had a couple of you messaging to say that you hadn't heard of the bereavement support payment that we were talking about a little earlier in the program. Rachel says my husband died last September and I completely recognise the personal situation described by Caroline Voden. She said I'm looking at the online application right now. Thank you. So interesting to hear that some people hadn't actually heard of that before. And I also just want to mention also that we've had a couple of messages in about the Bayou Tapestry, the woman Mia, who we spoke to, who is recreating that piece by piece.

It's taken her 10 years. But we have heard from a couple of people who said, no one's mentioned a fantastic copy made in the 1980s, sorry, by nine Staffordshire women. They say it's beautifully made, full size, really well displayed in Reading Museum. They say it's free to visit and very well worth doing so. It has the Latin text clearly translated, super for all ages to see this. work. Please mention it. That's Vicky there. Well, I have Vicky, so hopefully that means that

plenty of people will see it. I will be back with Weekend Women's Hour tomorrow at 4. But for now, thank you for listening. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. Silence in court. I'm Lucy Worsley, and in my brand new series, I'll be hearing about the women involved in some of history's most infamous legal battles. Women accused of murder. Bigamy and adultery. Through to the shocking offence of not knowing their place. With a team of all female detectives, I'll explore the lives at the centre of some extraordinary courtroom dramas,

asking, has the justice system truly changed? Lady on Trial with Lucy Worsley. From BBC Radio 4, listen now on BBC Sounds. He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballandeur Award five times. He's the all-time leading goalscorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status.

Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right. Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.