Woman's Hour - Anna Lapwood, Women leaders, Getting children back to school

Episode Date: May 9, 2020

The conductor and organist Anna Lapwood tells us how she’s trying to get more girls to take up the organ.Have women leaders handled the global health crisis of Covid-19 better than the men? And, what might explain why? Rosie Campbell, Director of the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership and Professor of Politics at King’s College London, and Clare Wenham, Assistant Professor in Global Health Policy at the London School of Economics and Political Science discuss.If lockdown measures are relaxed and children start the process of going back to school how will it work? Are social distancing measures remotely feasible with class sizes of 30? We hear from Dr Emma Kell who trains teachers and works for a pupil referral unit and virologist Professor Jonathan Ball.We look at why the number of women experts used in news programmes across all networks has fallen during the Covid-19 pandemic? Emeritus Professor Lis Howell, who directs the Expert Women Project which records and reports the appearance of women authority figures on news programmes, and former cabinet minister Baroness Morgan of Cotes discuss. Could your relationship survive one partner’s endurance sport obsession? In her new novel The Motion of the Body Through Space, Lionel Shriver explores the impact of extreme exercise on the ageing body and on one marriage in particular.Produced by: Rabeka Nurmahomed Presented by: Jenni Murray Editor: Jane ThurlowInterviewed guest: Rosie Campbell Interviewed guest: Clare Wenham Interviewed guest: Professor Jonathan Ball Interviewed guest: Dr Emma Kell Interviewed guest: Anna Lapwood Interviewed guest: Baroness Morgan of Cotes Interviewed guest: Professor Lis Howell Interviewed guest: Lionel Shriver

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good afternoon and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. In today's programme, going back to school. How safe will it be and how will parents, teachers and pupils cope with it when it comes? The concert organist, Anna Lapwood, and the hashtag she invented, play like a girl. Because there are so few female organists, it becomes quite difficult if a girl goes on an organ course. If there are 40 boys and there are only three girls, it is quite a difficult experience. And so a lot of what I'm trying to do is make it a sort of safe space for them and create organ courses that are just for girls.

There'll be some of her music too. Where are all the women with expertise in health? Why is the lineup generally all male? And a new novel by Lionel Shriver, The Motion of the Body Through Space. Why are her central characters a husband and wife where the husband, redundant from his job, takes up extreme sport. It's largely about a marriage, especially once you get into your 60s and 70s. It's a lot about mutual forgiveness and also helping each other through the disappointments and difficulties of aging. And I personally think know, I personally think that aging is probably the hardest thing in the world to do gracefully. Some three months since the COVID-19

pandemic began to sweep across the world, the criticisms of the way it's been handled are beginning to surface. The leaders of the USA, Brazil, Russia, Spain, Italy and the UK have all come in for censure. They have one thing in common and it's been remarked upon widely. They're all men. Meanwhile, Forbes magazine named some of the world's most effective leaders during the crisis. Jacinda Ardern, Angela Merkel, Tsai Ing-wen and no fewer than four Scandinavians, Meta Fredriksson, Katrin Jakobsdottir, Sanna Marin and Erna Solberg. And they are all women. You may remember that it was suggested the 2008 financial disaster may have been handled better if Lehman Brothers had been Lehman Sisters. But is it true that women cope better in a crisis than men? Well, Claire Wenham is

Assistant Professor in Global Health Policy at the London School of Economics and Political Science. Rosie Campbell is Director of the Global Institute for Women's Leadership and Professor of Politics at King's College London. Jacinda Ardern has been singled out for particular praise. How typical is the way she operates of women's leadership? There isn't one uniform way that women leaders lead, but there are gendered leadership styles that women are more likely to adopt than men. And she obviously has adopted a very collaborative, quite humble leadership style where she's very willing to listen to advice.

She reaches out. She has reached out to children, for example. And it's not that men can't adopt those kind of styles, but a few of them do. How significant, Claire, would you say it is that these women have come to prominence during a global health crisis? outbreak so far. But I also think we can't overstate this quite yet. I mean, it's still only small numbers of countries globally. I mean, it's what 15 female leaders worldwide at the moment. And so whilst they have, I think there's a lot of other competing factors which might explain why they have been successful simply beyond their gender. What are they? Well, so they've been very transparent in how they've moved. They have been very decisive and moved quickly. So they, you know, Jacinda Ardern and

Angela Merkel both kind of, you know, locked down quickly. They, you know, have been, in my perspective, they've been focusing on, you know, people's lives more so than maybe the economy that we're seeing certainly be the focus of efforts in the United States, in Brazil, and to a certain extent in the UK. And so I think they're just, they're thinking differently, or at least prioritising different things. But whether that is because they are women, I don't think we can say conclusively yet. To what extent is Angela Merkel particularly well placed because she's a scientist? So I think that's really key. And I think we saw her press conference a couple

of weeks ago, where she was really, she really was explaining how important the reproductive number was and, you know, a simple degree of change can what that can mean in terms of infection and deaths and I think that's that's really vital but I think that also shows you something about different women leaders right she's been demonstrated to be effective because of her scientific understanding which is very different to Jacinda Ardern that we would be hearing about previously and that being much more about humility and transparency and getting on Facebook Live and talking to people as everyday people. So I'm not sure there's a consistent trend amongst these women, which is also important to note.

Claire, how significant would you say are the women leaders in comparison to the political cultures of the countries they're leading? Well, so I don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, women leaders are in countries which have, you know, have been able to elect a female leader. And therefore, you know, we might see greater types of governance, participatory governance that we see in places like New Zealand, where, you know, it's a lot more engaging between the social contract between the population and the government is a lot tighter. People respond to governments better. And so I don't think you can you can talk about those things individually. Right. Leaders only happen in a political context where they're able to get elected. And as we saw in the last US elections, the US context isn't ready to have a woman,

which tells you a lot about how important the fiscal context is. And Rosie, we are familiar with some of President Trump's more controversial pronouncements. But what is it about the way so many prominent male leaders are responding that people suggest may be making situations worse? Well, I think this is what's really going on. I think rather than this being about women leaders leading differently, I think that there are a group of populist male leaders who deliberately adopt a hyper-masculine style. It's part of their

ideology. It's part of their politics. They talk about being invulnerable to the virus, you know, Bolsonaro in Brazil saying Brazilians can't catch COVID. I think that's a sort of hyper-masculinity, which is incredibly damaging because it's very hierarchical. It's the cult of the leader. It's very narcissistic. And then you have a crisis like this that requires collective action. It requires listening to experts and a belief in scientific truth. And all of that's come together and meant that the worst leaders are these populist male leaders. And they're in stark opposition to some of the women we've just been talking about. Claire, how sensible is it to concentrate on the national leader rather than maybe some women with other leading roles, whether it's in politics or in healthcare? Absolutely. I think, you know, leadership, it doesn't just happen in the head of state. And I think we can see leadership across this outbreak at different levels of governance, whether that be in hospitals, in local government, in public health systems. And, you know, there are definitely leaders

in all those levels of governance that are women. And, you know, just because we're not seeing those people on the TV, just because they're not being picked up by headlines of female leadership, it doesn't mean that there aren't women in these roles doing really effective effective activities and i think particularly as we're seeing this um retrenchment to much more localized community groups across the world to respond to the outbreak and to you know even in the uk to to help get food for each other and and kind of a local community styled um response we're seeing a lot of that being led by women as well and so I think we need to recognize leadership across all levels of governance and the role that women play in

leadership across that. There are obviously some pretty effective male leaders as well as effective women leaders who are they and what are the factors that are key to the success of the really successful one? So, yeah, we've seen great male leadership in this, in examples such as South Korea. But we also need to think that, you know, if we look back to previous outbreaks, for example, previous major global health crises such as Zika in Brazil and Ebola in Liberia, they were both led by women. We had Dilma Rousseff in Brazil. We had Ellen Zerliff Ebola in Liberia. They were both led by women. We had Dilma Rousseff in Brazil, we had Ellen Zerliff Johnson in Liberia, and Margaret Chan was the head of the World Health Organization during the last Ebola outbreak. So I think we need to think about, well,

how are people responding to this? And what are the components within the response, rather than focusing just on our women better leaders and are men better leaders. I think it's about recognising the traits that are shared by whoever's performing a good job. How easy, Rosie, would you say, do voters find it to make judgements about their leaders in the midst of a crisis? Well, we do know there tends to be a bump in popularity for leaders in the midst of a crisis we tend to want to collect together and to support whoever's in power um i think what's more important is probably the retrospective evaluation um going forward when when when there are elections people will think can i trust this person if there's another crisis based on the previous crisis so I think we

can't really read off what people say right now about their leaders because we're in we're in crisis mode it's when people have had time to reflect that actually we will see the longer term impacts. I was talking to Rosie Campbell and Claire Wenham and we had some emails on this subject Mary said very disappointed that there was no discussion or reflection at all about the female leadership within the UK itself. In other words, Nicola Sturgeon. Her approach to leadership of this crisis within the context of Scotland should at least have measured a mention within this debate.

Jules said, Jacinda Ardern has shown leadership and compassion in more than one crisis and remains consistent and transparent she's inspirational and Chris said in my view women leaders are better at concentrating on the wider need

rather than their ratings or the party they're more practical whereas men need to win regardless of circumstances. The Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, is planning to explain tomorrow how lockdown will be eased and the question of children returning to school will be addressed. What do you think of the prospect? Are social distancing measures remotely feasible with class sizes of 30? How can vulnerable children and their families be protected? Well, Jane spoke to Professor Jonathan Ball, a virologist at the University of Nottingham,

and to Dr Emma Kell, who trains teachers and works for a pupil referral unit. What are her concerns when it comes to allowing children back to the classroom? I put out a question to teachers last night and I've had almost 400 responses and one of them almost just reads like a plea. It says please help us say we're scared and it's too dangerous and that a few weeks of misschooling is no big deal in the scheme of things. So people are genuinely terrified. They're terrified because the practicality of social distancing and the advice being given to businesses simply isn't practical in a school context. So things like, yeah, the distancing, social distancing, if you've worked with teenage boys, you know, they can't keep their hands off each other. And one of the pieces of advice to businesses is to

limit contact to 15 minutes. How we're supposed to do that in a school context, we just don't know. So levels of anxiety are very high. Professor Jonathan Ball, virologist, over to you. How safe is it at the moment? Should we even be contemplating returning to school? Unfortunately, we're still learning about the virus and we don't fully understand the role that children play in the transmission of the virus. There are some reports, some stories which give you reassurance. I think one in particular is a UK school child who was infected whilst he was visiting the French Alps and they contact traced about I think it was just over 70 people who had been in contact and there was no evidence that he

transmitted virus also didn't transmit virus to to siblings so you know that that shows that in that particular case and it's a single case that the the children or the child infected didn't easily pass on the virus and in, if you look through various reports, it's very difficult to get a good idea that children are particular drivers of the outbreak. But if you think about other diseases, things like influenza, we know that schools and children are incredibly efficient incubators for the spread of those viruses, not only in the school, but outwards towards the community. And I think that's the dilemma

that we're facing. And it's unfortunately, there is no clarity. I'm glad you've been so honest, because we are confused, we are still ignorant. And that makes decision making all the more difficult, Jonathan? It makes it incredibly difficult. And I think what we have to do as society and certainly the government is to, you know, appreciate individuals' own drivers as to why they may or may not want their children in school. So, for example, something we don't really consider is there may be somebody incredibly vulnerable at home who could suffer very serious COVID disease or indeed that the child themselves might have some kind of underlying condition

that makes a parent worry very much about sending a child into school. And I think if we do return to school, there has to be some acknowledgement and some acceptance that some children, for very solid reasons, may not wish to return to school. And we have to make sure that they're not neglected. If you were advising the government ahead of Sunday's expected announcement, what would you say on schools? Personally, I think it's a little too early to expect them to return. I think also with the half term coming up, it can't be more than what, a couple of weeks away. It'll be the end of May, won't it? Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, I think in all reality, it would be a rather silly thing to do to allow children back for maybe a week or two and potentially allow the spread of virus to then have them back on holiday for a week to then return. So I think it's likely after half term, if that's a reality. What about individual school years Emma? I'm thinking I feel very sorry for kids in year six and kids in year 13 whose school lives have just come to a halt without any real resolution but then there's the children taking important exams next year. Who do you prioritise? Well this is the huge ethical dilemma isn't it that if we're going to bring some students in who decides who and where does that decision come from? Who takes responsibility for that decision? You know, I mean, I'd be inclined to prioritise our most vulnerable students, the ones who, you know, let's face it, at worst, most of us are a bit bored and a bit restless and putting on a bit of weight. But actually, there are children out there who are at home in the most appalling situations. So that question over who actually goes back first, yes, logic would seem to suggest

that it should be the year 10s and the year 5s who are actually going to be taking those big exams next year. But that decision is huge. And I don't know who ultimately takes responsibility for that. Well, what do we know, Jonathan, about what is happening within the schools that are open for the children of key workers? Well, you know, the actual levels of infection control and how the schools deal with the children in their charge will be primarily a decision made by the teaching body and the governing body. And one would hope that they will take into account the advice around limiting the spread of coronavirus,

which is the normal social distancing and hygiene measures that we've been hearing so much about. And that's all you can do if you've got people in your charge. And hopefully anybody who's feeling unwell won't be turning up to school. But there has to be a lot of trust here. But I'm afraid the reality is that social distancing for children just isn't a reality. So the colleagues I know who are in work with younger children, they're sucking on biscuits and passing them to one another.

I had a colleague the other day who said to me that they had their face licked. I mean, with the best will in the world, trying to convey social distancing to a group of five-year-olds is nigh on impossible. We also need to say, I think, Jonathan, that testing is much discussed, but the swab test is pretty invasive and pretty unpleasant, isn't it? Yeah, it's not the most comfortable thing that you can do. And I'd imagine even worse for children. But of course it's the one of the only weapons we have at the moment against the virus is to identify where it is and to then try and limit its onward spread and I think I think one of the wider discussion points here as well

is in terms of the the school and the closure of the school is which group are you trying to protect? Now, obviously, most people probably turn around to me and say, well, both teachers and pupils. The reality is that the evidence so far is that the vast, and I mean the vast majority of children who get COVID-19 will have an incredibly mild disease. And that's why we think it may be the case that they don't pass the virus on very easily. Whereas children going into, sorry, teachers going into those schools who are potentially infected, you know, on the evidence so far pose the bigger transmission risk. And I think that's where, for example, lots of testing needs to be taking place. It is out in the community so that we can limit how much ultimately would be in the schools.

Right, got you. So if you could prioritise anything, it would be that, Jonathan? It would definitely be, you know, we have to prioritise testing when we come out of lockdown, whether or not that's in the context of schools or whether that's in context of us just going back to work and trying to lead a normal life as much as possible. If we can't actively identify and track where the virus is, it will very quickly ramp up to the levels that we saw just before lockdown and we'll go into another lockdown and we'll have a constant flurry or cycle of out of lockdown, in lockdown. Jonathan Ball and Emma Kell.

Still to come in today's programme, a new novel by Lionel Shriver, The Motion of the Body Through Space, how a man in his 60s taking up extreme sport becomes a threat to himself and his marriage, and the often all-male line-up of expertise during the pandemic. Where are the women?

Anna Lapwood is one of the UK's very small number of female concert organists. She was the first woman to be awarded an organ scholarship at Magdalen College Oxford and then became the youngest ever director of music at Pembroke College at Cambridge. She was all of 21. She's been encouraging girls to hashtag play like a girl and she started a choir for girls in Cambridge. She's the presenter of this year's coverage of the BBC Young Musician 2020 which began last Sunday and her music is rousing to say the least. Anna, what was it about the organ that made you so passionate about it? Well, I think it's one of those instruments where it's just so much fun to play. I mean, you have to use your hands and your feet at the same time. It's a bit of a test for the brain.

It's basically an ab workout. But also it's an instrument that resonates with so many people in so many different communities and can be people's only sort of experience of classical music if their church goes. And so I think it's just a really exciting instrument and also just so much fun. Now, there's this hashtag, Play Like like a girl how did that come about? It was sort of a

tongue-in-cheek thing at first actually I was I did an organ competition when I was about 19-20 and some of the feedback I received was that I needed to play more like a man and it was intended as sort of you need to play with more power and authority. But obviously that equating that with playing like a man, I did find slightly problematic. And so I created this sort of very tongue in cheek thing, just saying, well, actually, I'm going to play like a girl instead. And it has then sort of it's since taken off. And it's been really lovely to see people using it as a message of empowerment. And I just think reinforcing the fact that actually playing like a woman is a positive thing and it might be slightly different. It might be the same, but it should be a positive thing overall.

But why do you think it's difficult to persuade girls to take up the organ? I think historically the organ has been linked to choristerships and historically those have been awarded to boys, not girls. In the last 30 years or so, we have seen many more girls' choirs spring up around the place. And we are starting to see, I think, that reflecting in more female organists. But I think also, because there are so few female organists, it becomes quite difficult if a girl goes on an organ course, if there are 40 boys and there are only three girls. It is quite a difficult experience. And so a lot of what I'm trying to do is make it a sort of safe space for them and create organ courses that are just for girls. How surprised

were you when you got your scholarship to Modelling College Oxford for the first time in centuries? For a woman to get it? It was it was very I was not expecting it at all I'd been intending to apply for a place where I only had to play for sort of a couple of services a week. And then the director of music at Magdalen just said, actually, you should think about applying for Magdalen. And that was a scholarship where you had to play for eight services a week. So you're playing a service every day and then three on a Sunday and you had one day off. So you were getting through an immense amount of repertoire. And I think I was more so I

didn't really think about the fact that I was a woman until I arrived and then I'd been at a girls school and was suddenly launched into this world where it was a totally male choir and so I basically didn't have any contact with women other than a couple of university friends so it was a big shift for me but it was a I mean a totally formative time and I wouldn't be where I am now without it. Director of Music at Pembroke College Cambridge as I said at the age of all of 21 and I know your chapel choir which you conduct has released a single Medio Vita by Carenza Briggs. Shall we have a listen to a little bit of that? Oh, yes. Here we go. Vita Vita

Vita Vita Vita Vita Vita Vita Vita Vita Thank you. Oh, that's so beautiful. But clearly mixed sex.

But I know you've also set up Pembroke Girls' Choir. Why have you set up a girls choir? Well I mentioned earlier that historically choristerships have been something that have been for boys and that we have seen a sort of surge in girls choirs in the last 30 years or so and in Cambridge I just saw there's actually there's the St Catherine's Girls Choir already who are absolutely fantastic and they've been running for I think 11 years now but I don't think just one girls choir is enough and so we set up a choir with a slightly older age group so girls age 11 to 18 and what's brilliant about it is if you think think about any other chance where girls who are

11 years old can work as sort of colleagues and as equals alongside girls who are 18 it doesn't it doesn't really happen and so yeah it's sort of the highlight of my week doing their rehearsals. How do you practice at home? Well, I've actually, just before lockdown, I bought a practice organ, which has been my complete saving grace. My neighbours possibly don't like it quite as much as I do. I bet they don't. Oh, they might, though. I mean, because you play well. You're not just practicing, are you are you well they did

have a little Les Mis sing-along the other day and I played along which I think they found quite amusing there's also an NHS choir now I'm intrigued how this is working yes so this is something that a couple of my Pembroke choir colleagues actually came up with and they asked me to help so they're working on the Covid ward at Addenbrookes Hospital in Cambridge and we've just passed a thousand members this week so basically what we do is we have Facebook live rehearsals where I sit and play the piano and sing and I can't hear anyone else but they can all comment in real time and it's surprising how much it can actually feel like a normal choir practice and create a real a beautiful sense of

community so we're now recording our first piece together they're all recording on their phones and sending in individual recordings and that's a version of somewhere over the rainbow that's been written especially for us and then we have to just try and piece together a thousand singers how hard could it be sounds a bit complicated to me but i'm sure you'll manage it just one other question how much did you enjoy The Young Musicians? I know you managed the recording before lockdown. Yes, so it was the last week before everything changed, basically. So it holds a very special place in my heart for many reasons.

I mean, it was the most incredible experience. I've watched that competition since I was tiny. And it's inspired so many children. And I think what I love most about the coverage on Sunday was seeing people on Twitter saying how their seven-year-old got up early in the morning to practice for the first time ever once they'd watched that or how their teenager went and tried to learn the opening of Schubert's Earl Koenig because they saw an 11-year-old player on the competition. I think that's the real power of BBC Young Musician.

And I was talking to Anna Lapwood. The Expert Women Project has been recording and reporting the appearance of female authority figures on radio and television news programmes for the last five years. In that time, the number of women experts on these programmes has risen by at least 40%. But during the early weeks of the lockdown, there was a dramatic fall in the number of women appearing. Jane spoke to the former Tory MP and Culture Secretary, Baroness Morgan of Coates, Nicky Morgan, who supported its aims,

and to the Emeritus Professor, Liz Howell, who directs the project. We count the number of women experts or authority figures who appear on five or six flagship news programmes, and we do it for five days a month in selected months of the year. This year we decided to do it in February and March and then extended the project into April, and we found some very interesting figures. For example, in February there was a pretty respectable ratio

of men to women experts. It was 1.9. And that's what we'd expect to see because the ratio of female expertise in society is around about two to one. However, in March, this figure rocketed to 2.7 men to every woman, nearly three men to every woman. And that's the worst figure we've seen for a long, long time. And that was when the coronavirus began to take hold. It was just pre-lockdown. We were measuring the second week in March,

and it was when there was a lot of speculation and concern about what was going to happen. And we found that the group of people who really dominated in this period were male politicians and male politicos, and they sort of surged back at that stage and gave us one of the worst figures we've had for a long time. Then in April, interestingly, women experts came back to the fore because of the NHS and because the editors of the programme decided to go into hospitals and care homes and talk to real people, and women came back.

But the big fear is that when we get into May, and it's more speculative about the end of lockdown, we will go back to seeing all these men with their opinions, predominantly cabinet ministers and political appointees, and that they will dominate the airwaves again. Why does it matter though, Liz? Because we need to hear from the experts. We've never needed expert opinion more. Why does it matter? Because there are a great many women experts out there. And I think that they're possibly being overlooked, not necessarily by the editors who are trying very hard, but by the administration. It's right anyway that we have fairness to

women. As I say, the level of expertise in society is about two to one in favour of men, nothing like three to one. Well, how do we define an expert? We define an expert as an authority figure, somebody who, for example, we look at people who are in professions like the law, in academia, and are expert witnesses, expert witness agencies, and they all show a ratio of about two men to every woman. But in the news programmes that we were seeing in March, it was three men to every woman, and that isn't right. Nicky Morgan, sorry, Baroness Morgan, do you think

this stuff matters? I do think it matters. I think that having the female perspective on something obviously as critical as the virus is very important. But I equally, I think the point that you made, Jane, which is that at this current moment, we want to hear from the right people in the right jobs. And it just so happened that this time the chief medical officer obviously is Chris Whitty. The chief scientific officer is Patrick Vallance. You know, if it had been nine months ago, we had a female chief medical officer in Dame Sally Davis and we would have been hearing a lot more from her, for example. And it also happens that the relevant cabinet ministers at this time are male. Well, the Home Secretary is a woman. We are living in quite unprecedented times.

I never thought there'd be any kind of lockdown and this level of restriction placed on my social life in my lifetime in this country. We never hear from the female Home Secretary. Incredible. Well, we have heard from her. She's done interviews. She's done a couple of the press conferences. But nothing like you might expect. Well, I think at the end of the day, Downing Street will always think about who is the right person to front up the press conferences, depending on the announcements of the day. And at the end of the day, I think what most people want to hear from is the prime minister. But of course, you know, he hasn't been in position because of his health. He's back now, which I think everyone is very relieved to see.

And of course, we had an example last week where we did have a female minister talking about domestic abuse or trying to on a national news programme being shouted down by a male presenter. That's not encouraging. You're talking there about the encounter between Helen Waitley and Piers Morgan. No, Victoria Atkins, who is the minister who was about to take the domestic abuse bill through Parliament, but she didn't get asked about domestic abuse at all. Instead, what they heard was a male presenter trying to shout her down. That's not encouraging. Yeah, I've got to speak up for Piers Morgan and journalism generally.

If somebody like Victoria Atkins makes an appearance on a national television show or radio show, you know that you're going to be asked about a topical news line of the day. Absolutely. And she did answer those questions. But then you are also asked about what you have been booked to talk about, particularly when it's an issue which we also know is deeply, sadly topical in this current lockdown crisis. Do you think that, Nicky Morgan, that women are simply less likely to self-identify as experts? Have we still got that as an issue? Well, I do think that there's an issue. And of course, the BBC did run an expert women programme, which I think has now slightly fallen by the wayside. Well, I do think that there's an issue. And of course, the BBC did run an expert women programme, which I think has now slightly fallen by the wayside. I don't think that's what Tony

Hall would say. But carry on. Yeah. Well, I think that that is a concern to people. But I do think you're right in many ways, which is that, and I think editors will find this, which is when they ask women to go on, women often want to be much surer of the ground they're talking about. Whereas often, I remember talking to a senior editor about this, often it is men who will actually go on and say, well, I'm not an expert on this, but I will talk about it. And I think that's what Liz is getting at when she talks about at the time when the news is more speculative,

then actually often it is male voices that will come to the fore or people who will want to give their opinion. But if women are not involved in decision making about how we ease the lockdown or indeed about any other aspect of the current situation, then Nikki, we are all going to lose out, aren't we, potentially? Well, I think it's right. You have to have women's voices around the table. And we do. Obviously, we have people like Therese Coffey, who is DWP secretary. We've obviously got Priti as Home Secretary.

We've got the Deputy Chief Medical Officer in Jenny Harries. We've got the Chief Nurse in Ruth May. The latter two, as well as Priti, have also spoken at the press conferences. So there are female voices. But it is obviously the case that at this current moment in time that the politicians we're hearing most from, the Health Secretary, the Prime Minister, the Chancellor, the Community Secretary, the Business Secretary, those positions are held by men. Quick word from you, Liz. You say you've

spoken to editors. Have any of them actually promised to make a much more concerted attempt to even things out as we go through the crisis? I would say they all have. They're very keen to make sure that women are fairly represented in this crisis, and they do try very hard to do so. You can read a lot more about these figures on the website we've just launched, which is the Expert Women Project. They are trying, but it's very difficult when the administration isn't helping. Liz Howell and Nicky Morgan were talking to Jane. In Lionel Shriver's new novel, The Motion of the Body Through Space,

Remington and Serenata are a married couple in their early 60s. Serenata has been a committed runner all her life, but as she turned 60, her knees are gone and in need of replacement. Remington has been made redundant and has become obsessive about fitness, planning marathons and a metal man triathlon, even though he's never done much exercise before. How can a marriage survive such a divergence of interests? Why did Lionel want to unpick the relationship between the body and the mind?

I guess it's partly because I'm experiencing aging and physical decline. It's partly autobiographical, though, along with most subjects that interest me. I have plenty of company. So my readership is a portion of it, probably going through some of the same humbling experience that I am of having my body start to fail me. And, you know, when I first started this book, I was a little worried that the subject of exercise seemed a little bit small for me, because I've taken on a lot of larger social issues. But I discovered as I got into the book that it wasn't a small subject at all. And as you said, it touches on decline and mortality. And also, it's largely about a marriage. And when you have a long-term marriage, especially once you get into your 60s and 70s, it's a lot

about mutual forgiveness and also helping each other through the disappointments and difficulties of aging. And I, you know, I personally think that aging is probably the hardest thing in the world to do gracefully. Now, you portray the ultra-exercise industry in the United States as a kind of cynical cult. Why? Well, you know, this is not an anti-exercise book. I can't imagine anything more horrible. That's like being against koala bears. But it is a little suspicious of the endurance sport industry. I think it's overselling what to me is a mechanical issue.

Yes, I think we should all get our blood running on a regular basis. It's good for our health. It makes us feel better. It makes us sleep better. We all know the arguments. But I don't think exercise is the meaning of life, and the cult of endurance sport is really offering up running around as the answer to all your prayers, as the way that you are going to redeem yourself, to raise yourself up on a higher spiritual plane. In fact, if you

look at their videos and promotional literature, it's a lot about this kind of uber mention notion of becoming a superior being. It's very condescending toward the little people who just have their sad little runs in the morning. You're also interested, I know, in what's known as the crisis of masculinity. And Remington has been made redundant. And the woman who's taken over the department is an African, a Nigerian American woman. What are you trying to express in his complete loss of his job to a woman who is black? Well, this is the controversial bit of the book, but the woman who became head of the Department of Transportation, where he has worked for decades, is not really qualified for the job.

So she has ticked various diversity boxes. She's not especially competent because she hasn't even been trained in this field. It's not even her fault. but I'm trying to get at the sense of powerlessness and injustice that dare not speak its name that a lot of straight white males currently feel you know that's the one feel it but surely Lionel they they may be wrong I mean okay your fiction that says a woman who's completely unqualified to do a big job gets it. But where's the evidence for that? Well, there's evidence for it in the book that she's not very good at it. But, you know, I'm also looking at people in the poll in the United States, white people, who claim that they believe that they are uniquely discriminated against. Now, I personally find that farcical, right? I just, I think that's absurd. But there are ways in which we can see how they came to feel that way. In some ways, it's probably good for white people to have that experience

because then they find out how everyone else feels. There is another example in the book of your disapproval of the concept of cultural appropriation. Serenata's job is recording audio books, and she's told she can't do that anymore because she does accents which are not her own. How much with that did you intend to offend or provoke in this book? Well, of course, I am compulsively a little mischievous. So and you could call that provocative instead. Yes, there is a taking the mickey out of identity politics in this book. I hope not too heavy-handedly. It's supposed to be done with a light touch, but it's also a way of making the book contemporary, set profoundly in the present, and that've been very public about this, exasperated by the kind of hypersensitivity that we have entered into in relation to a lot of subjects.

And I think that's to the disadvantage of being able to work these issues out because we need to be able to talk about things honestly and robustly. And all these different rules of what you can and cannot do inhibits creative people artistically and it also inhibits us on a simple popular level being able to talk to each other honestly. You said in an interview recently some people think I'm evil incarnate. And when I read that, I thought, hang on, it sounds as if there's a hint of a degree of pride in that. Are you proud that some people might think you're evil incarnate?

Well, there is a way in which in the current polity and polarization, if you haven't made any enemies, then you're not saying anything. So yeah, there probably is an element of pride as well as exaggeration in that statement. It's not that I go out to make enemies, actually. It's just that I'm willing to make them if that's the price of making an important point.

I was talking to Lionel Shriver. On Monday, Jane will be talking to Shelley King about the coercive control storyline she's in, in Coronation Street. It comes just at the time we see more domestic violence happening because of lockdown. And Anna Jones has been described as the kind of cook who makes you want to eat vegetarian food, even if you aren't a vegetarian. She'll have lots of ideas on Monday. That's Jane

on Monday morning, two minutes past 10. From me for today, enjoy the rest of the weekend. Bye-bye. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.