Woman's Hour - Anne Hathaway and Jessica Chastain, Breaking the cycle, Musih Tedji Xaviere

Episode Date: March 25, 2024

Described as a grim portrayal of human nature, Mothers’ Instinct is a film about the darker side of maternal love. Academy Award-winning actresses Jessica Chastain and Anne Hathaway play best friends raising sons of the same age in the same neighbourhood. The psychological thriller follows their apparently picture-perfect life in Sixties suburbia. The two friends in real life join Nuala McGovern to discuss.A new BBC study of elite British sportswomen shows that many are training and chasing medals for Great Britain while earning surprisingly low wages. The 143 female athletes who responded were above the age of 16, and were competing for their country in senior sport or at top club level. Some women had considered giving up sport, because of the cost of living now. Nuala is joined by Becky Grey, BBC Sport journalist who has been working on this study.In the first in a new series, Breaking The Cycle, following the work of the SHiFT team in Greater Manchester. Set up to help young people at risk of getting into serious trouble the approach is all about relationships. A 'Guide' works with a child and their family for at least 18 months and just keeps showing up. Our reporter Jo Morris went out and about with the team over the first year of the practice. Today, Sally Dicken from SHiFT paints a picture of the young people they are trying to help and explains the problems SHiFT has been set up to tackle.These Letters End In Tears follows the story of two girls, Bessem and Fatima, as we learn the price they pay for falling in love. In Cameroon, where the book is based, same-sex relationships are punishable by law. The author, Musih Tedji Xaviere, has made a huge personal sacrifice bringing this story to life, and joins Nuala in the studio.Reporter: Jo Morris

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Great to be back with you this week. And I'm wondering, have you noticed the posters that are popping up with Anne Hathaway and Jessica Chastain for the film Mother's Instinct? Well, they star in this new psychological thriller. It's opening later this week. And we are thrilled to have both of them for you today on the programme. They're going to tell us what it was like to make the film together

as best friends, playing best friends, until they weren't. And speaking of friends and support systems, you will no doubt have seen Catherine Princes of Wales announce over the weekend that she had a cancer diagnosis. Her brother James posted this on Instagram. He said, over the years, we have climbed many mountains together. As a family, we will climb this one with you too. So I want to hear about who you turn to in trying times. When life throws you a curveball, who is on your speed dial? Or the first person or group that you will WhatsApp?

Who helped or do you think would help with the practicalities of life when you just can't do what needs to be done? Maybe you've had an experience that you were surprised by who was able to show up for you. So to get in touch, you can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. If you'd like to WhatsApp us or send a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444.

Also today, we have a new series starting, Breaking the Cycle. That's about helping young people at risk. And we have a beautiful book by the Cameroonian writer, Mushi Teji Xavier, who will be in the Woman's Hour studio with me. So that is all coming up. But let us begin with a new BBC study of elite British sportswomen. It shows that many are training and chasing medals for Great Britain while earning

surprisingly low wages. The 143 female athletes who responded were above the age of 16, forgive me. They were competing for their country in senior sport or at the highest level in their sport, at top club level. And that same research showed that some had considered giving up sport because of the cost of living now. Well, according to the study, more than three quarters of the respondents felt that sportswomen are not paid enough compared with sportsmen. Let us turn to Becky Gray, BBC sports journalist who has been working on this study. Let's turn to this, Becky, and welcome to Woman's Hour. More than a third of the 143 respondents said they'd considered giving up sport because of the expenses of their life. Yeah, exactly. And when we look, thanks for having me, first of all, when we look at some of the

numbers in this study, it becomes really clear why. So more than three quarters of those 143 respondents that you mentioned told us they earn less than £30,000 a year from their sport. So the most recent average salary data we have from the Office for National Statistics comes from April 2023. And that average salary was £34,963. So it's just the stark reality of life as an elite British sportswoman I suppose that the vast majority of them are earning less than that average salary. How do they manage? It's a great question and it's a question that I have asked many sportswomen over the past few months and not easily to be honest um you know one of the big conversation topics was equipment a lot of them still have to pay for

their own equipment so it's not just that you're getting paid this small amount to pay sport to play sport it's also um you know it's as if your job came with, you know, a few thousand pound price tag on, you know, the laptop you need to work, that kind of thing. For an example, I can think of, spoke to a kite foil racer, which is going to be a new sport in this upcoming Olympics this year. What is it? That is a great question. It's in the sailing category. So they sort of it's, it's a really cool one where they sort of look like they're hovering above the water,

I think, and I hope I have got that correct. And with a kite, by the sounds of it, too. And with a kite, obviously pulling them along. Yeah, and, you know, those boards aren't cheap. Those kites aren't cheap. She told me she has to get a new kite every six months. You can't reuse it. And, yeah, that all comes out of this low income that sports

women are making. So that's the income that they're having. You talk there about the equipment, which obviously would have an impact on their training. I know I've read previously of some taking second jobs, for example, and I'm beginning to wonder how many hours in the day that they'll really be able to devote to a job if they're supposed to be training. Exactly. Yeah. One, I think one sportswoman told us she she's had up to five different jobs at one time to fund her sports career. But then, you know, equally, you said that hours in the day, that is the thing. There's only so many. So we spoke to another sportswoman who earned 16,000 pounds a year from her sport.

And she told us, you know, she's aiming for the 2028 Olympics. She can't get a job. She said it would have to be a job working night shifts because of her training schedule. And, you know, elite athletes, sleep is pretty important to them. That's just not going to be workable. I'd even say for the average person as well as I'm sure listeners who do night shifts would chime in on that too. What about sponsorship because that's often where the big money comes from? Yes so when I gave that stat earlier more than three quarters said they earn

less than £30,000 a year that does actually we ask them about their full income from sports so that includes sponsorship, prize money, things like that as well as funding or a salary um and anecdotally what sports women told us is there are fewer opportunities for them um why of the i'm just gonna say sexism i mean it's so hard isn't it such a difficult it's a difficult question. And what the evidence points to is just plain sexism. There are fewer opportunities for women to earn sponsorship. And then, you know, we had one sportswoman perhaps unsurprisingly talk about looks. Like if you're a woman, your sponsorship might be more likely to be based on the way that you look. But then they also spoke about chances after sport

so um you know one olympic athlete told me in their sport men probably would get some coaching opportunities once they retire that's gonna be there for the women so they have to think ahead as well like they're potentially going to need a whole career change once they do come out of their sport. Is there a continued impact of the Lionesses high profile Euro 2022 win? Because there it felt like there was the energy and the enthusiasm and a lot of people trying to also be on the coattails of that, Manny, that were not women. Absolutely. And obviously, so, you know, there were chances for women to fill in comments on this questionnaire anonymously. And the word lionesses came up a lot, as you can imagine. Loads of positivity around that is absolutely brilliant. And there is definitely progress in certain areas. So nine in 10 of these sports

women told us they think media coverage of women's sport has improved over the last five years obviously the lionesses are going to be a massive part of that um but i think you know the reason that we wanted to do this study is to show that that's not really trickled down yet i think that's what the results have shown us um yeah that you know at the absolute top and the most high profile we're seeing amazing things and it absolutely has to be celebrated

but not everywhere yet. Yeah, I mean talking about elite sportswomen and also at the top of their game we had Dame Laura Kenny on the programme the most successful female Great Britain Olympic athlete in history and she's announced her retirement from cycling that was last Mondayay and women's hour if you missed it you want to listen back and but she talked about the expense of training and having children um because having

a family that's also i suppose something not just time but money that that needs to be considered yeah absolutely and i think um probably going into this study it's something that we ourselves haven't considered you know child care costs for any woman or parents starting a family are always a consideration um and it's absolutely something that came out of this study as well so um we found that more than a third of our respondents don't feel supported by their club or governing body to have a baby and continue to compete and maybe most interestingly on this child care issue two-thirds don't know what their parental leave policy would be with their club or governing body so um yeah i mean that that says it all if you're not quite sure what your parental leave policy is

probably you wouldn't be sure what your financial situation is so before you even get into what are the physical implications of giving birth while you're training as an athlete yeah there's all these practical considerations. Perhaps also a bit taboo to even ask what are the main concerns raised by the athletes and I know you'll be focusing on different aspects of the research over the week. Yeah so some of the main things we've been talking about today on the BBC Sport website are obviously money and maternity, as we just mentioned, social media trolling. So this is something when we last did the study in 2020, it was one of the key issues that came out, probably unsurprisingly to a lot of people.

It's still a major issue in sports women's lives so more than a third have been trolled and a quarter have received social media abuse of a sexual nature we've also covered transgender athletes competing in female categories so more than 100 respondents told us they would be uncomfortable with transgender women competing in female athletes and many told us of their fear of sharing that opinion publicly. Later in the week we'll be talking about sportswomen's use of the contraceptive pill, disordered eating and the fact that two thirds don't feel that their equipment that they use was specifically designed for women. So no shortage of topics. It's really interesting.

Thank you so much for speaking to us, Becky Gray. Becky also has a piece up online. There's lots about this. If you just go to the BBC sports page, you can read a little more on this study. We'll continue keeping an eye on it across the week. Now, To Mother's Instinct. This is a new film that opens in the UK this week. It stars Academy Award winning actresses Jessica Chastain and Anne Hathaway. They play best

friends raising sons of the same age in the same neighbourhood. This psychological thriller follows their apparently picture perfect life at 60s suburbia. And in this clip, they, which is Alice and Celine, they're searching for their boys, Theo and Max. Theo has a severe nut allergy. Theo! Theo? Alice? What's going on?

The boys have Max's cookies. Okay, okay. Well, Theo knows he can't have one. He's seven. He dreams okay. Well, Theo knows he can't have one. But he's seven. He's just... he dreams of trying them. Theo! Oh! No more cake for them. Over here! What's that? A secret tunnel.

Where are the cookies? Just back there. Sorry. Did you eat any? No. When I call you, you answer me, okay? Okay? Theo, say yes, Mom, okay. Yes, Mom.

Okay. Did he have any? Did he have any? No, but just one could kill him and he knows that. I'm a terrible mother. You're a wonderful mother. And a wonderful friend. Maybe I need a glass of wine.

Might I interest you in something stronger? Well, I recently had the pleasure of speaking to Jessica and Anne about the film. Also, their friendship in real life became evident from the start of our conversation. And I asked Anne if she would describe the film as a psychological thriller and also if she was attracted to that genre. I love the film. I watched it last night. A psychological thriller. Would you describe it as that, Anne? Are you attracted to that genre? Yes, I am. But I'm attracted to many genres. I love, I don't know, I just love cinema and I love exploring it. And when I see a really good example of a particular type of genre

and I have the opportunity to work with arguably one of the greatest living actresses, it's not really arguable, just one of the greatest living actresses, one of the all-time greats. Who happens to be a darling son. I mean, it was a very quick yes, and then a very long process. Oh my gosh, years. Years, but it has been made,

and I just have to let our listeners know that Jessica was kind of elbowing Anne in the ribs there as we chatted as well. But you are good friends. And in this particular film, you are best friends living next door to one another until things take a bit off a turn. And I wondered what that was like playing best friends that then begin to be suspicious, very suspicious of one another? Jessica? You know, you think, listen, because I love Annie.

I think she's such an incredible artist and person. And I love her family. I love kind of everything about her. So it's very difficult. It actually sometimes makes it more difficult to play friends who then have conflict in the story and suspicions develop, especially when you care about the person so much. But I think what it does is it gives the film

an edge, which, as you mentioned, the psychological thriller really needs. And this film definitely has an edge. And I've lost my voice for it. I was just thinking it was very husky. It all sounds good. But you play Alice.

How would you describe her character? And I have to say, oh, my goodness, the glamour and the fashion and the style of this film as well as its substance. But let's talk about Alice, Jessica. Oh, thank you. Well, first we just acknowledge Mitchell Travers, who's our costume designer, for putting together those beautiful looks for the characters.

And it takes place in the 1960s. So I think that adds to the element of glamour in it. Alice, I mean, she's really a product of that time. She's someone who when we meet, she really wanted more in her life. She really wants a career. She wants to be more than just a mother, you know. She loves being a mom, but she feels that there's a part of her that is unexpressed and kind of held down. And I think the kind of interesting thing about both these characters, when we find them, they're being repressed in some way, which creates this tsunami of emotions that come out.

That you're waiting. You're waiting on tenterhooks for that explosion. Celine, Anne, tell us about her. I think that Celine is someone who, Jessica just said it really, really well. I think both of these women are being repressed. And I think Celine has a very delicate equation going on inside of her. And she just thinks technically I got so much of what I wanted, so I'm not going to think about the ways that it happened. And so I think that she's, to use a word that I think people are becoming more familiar with, she's very unhealed. I think that she has a very happy layer on top of a lot of turmoil. And so when that top layer

is removed and you actually see what she's been dealing with, the pain that she's been living with and what it makes her do, how it makes her treat the people around her, how it makes her treat herself, it should be shocking. But when you consider a society that doesn't allow a full expression of oneself based on arbitrary factors like gender, maybe it isn't that shocking. Gosh, when you talk about layers, I'm thinking of one point when you have a black lace mantilla over your face. And I'm trying to see in your eyes what it is that you're trying to get across. It's interesting. That's quite evocative to me as you speak. It's called mother's instinct.

I was wondering, I mean, it's a controversial term, maternal instinct. Lots of debates about that. Do you believe in it, Jessica? Absolutely. The most dangerous animal that you come across in the wild is a mother, like a mother bear, a mother, any animal that is with her cubs, her children. So absolutely, I believe in a mother's instinct. And you're nodding.

Me? Yeah. Oh, yes. Yes, I've experienced it many times myself, where you sort of go from pleasant to beast very fast, and you're like, oh, well, let's remember that everything's probably going to be okay. So yeah, I do believe in instincts. And maybe this is just a particular way of

identifying one. Do you think it's different to paternal instinct? Well, maybe we could just say parental instincts. Maybe we never see them, but up against each other, they only work together. But, but yeah, I think, I think an extreme instinct towards a protective love. I mean, we could just put it that way. Yeah, which then leads to this amazing thriller. How was it to work together as pals? Well, I want to work with her again. I would love to work with Annie where we don't have an extreme conflict.

Or like we could work in fashion. But it was, I mean, she's really incredible. like we could work in fashion. I love it. But it was, I mean, she's really incredible. She can just switch on a dime. You know, you see these actresses who really kind of have to rev it up for a long time. And she's not like that. I mean, of course it's inside of her, but she's professional.

And then once the camera's rolling, she's really able to conjure up this depth of feeling. And I mean, it's why she is the actor she is and celebrated the way that she has been. And it's not just actors, of course, you're both listed as producers on this film. And Jessica, you're female led production company Freckle Films, which I have to say as a redhead, I quite enjoy that name of your company produced the film. Is it getting easier to get the things made that you want to get made as a woman? And what do you think? The part that my ear pricked to in that sentence was the things that you want to get made. And I think that it's a whole process in terms of becoming an artist, not just figuring out how you get things made, but what it is you want to see out there and why.

I hope it's getting easier. I certainly think that there's more conversation happening. I think that there are certain statistics, numbers that are showing us that, yeah, progress is being made. There's also statistics that show it's not happening quickly enough and it's not happening enough for everyone in the same way. So I'm always very, very hesitant to celebrate, but I do see more inclusivity in terms of storytelling. I think you just need to look at the Best Picture nominees this year at the Oscars. And there's a much wider variety of stories being told than 10 years ago. So there's a phrase that I really love. It's a Creole phrase and it's piti a piti luazo fe sonnid. And it means

little by little, the bird builds its nest. And I sort of feel like that's what we're all doing. We're all contributing to it little by little. And hopefully inside of a generation, they won't really know what it is that we're going on about. We'll have the whole tree maybe with money, money and ass. What about it, Jessica? What do you think stands in the way? Oh, well, I think, you know, with independent cinema too, there's a lot that stands in the way. I think, you know, we just had a pandemic. We're heading back into the theaters. I think we're trying to figure out the model of making films and with streaming being involved. I think there's a lot of unanswered questions. I do see a difference from when I started in the industry

about 12 years ago, in terms of women's stories or stories about, as Annie says, not just gender variety, but there's just more variety in storytelling. And so we're not coming from one demographic over and over again. So I do see a difference. And I see a difference in terms of more actresses producing, which is really inspiring to me, because those are the markers that young girls notice, and then they realize it's possible. And so yes, little by little, we're making our nest.

And I love the fact that you're friends that you met years ago, but have managed then to create this baby, making a play on the mother's instinct. But I was reading, and I don't know, you can't believe everything you read on the Internet, but that you were hoping to start a book club, the two of you, with Emily Blunt. Is that true? I tried. I tried. They were working and I was not. So you guys were busy but the book actually was adapted into a beautiful series by a fantastic writer named bash doran starring thomas mckenzie

and uh sean clifford two actresses i've been lucky enough to work with and it was called life after life and it's like that and um i don't know if you ever read it. Jessica, what would you ever have done? Is the book Life After Life? Yeah. So I tried to get that one going, but maybe someday. Someday. I mean, I'm always reading things

that have to do with what I'm working on. So it's very rare that I get time to actually read for pleasure. I'm going to record the book for you or read this memo. I'll just get it to you now. I will listen listen as you fall asleep listen i already i i hear the podcast of the and jessica and emily book club thank you so

much for spending some time with us on women's hour best of luck with the film thank you so much nice to see you you too jessica chastain and anne hathaway and Mother's Instinct is released on the 27th of March I asked you for your comments to get in touch with who is your support system who do you turn to in times of trouble following on from

the Princess of Wales that has said she has a cancer diagnosis and we've seen her brother post publicly about being there to support her. Well, here's a message that I got from Liz. She's in Newark on Trent. She says, My father is next door, dying of cancer.

The responses from my close friends have been diverse and illuminating. The ones who just phoned immediately and listened as I sobbed and gasped, doubled over, cooing at me as I regained myself. The ones who equipped with expertise confirmed my fears, outrage or gently suggesting alternative views.

The one who brings her children to delight my dwindling dad with their drawings and their brass band practice. Also the one who will conduct his funeral. She was at my mother's so she knows how we do them, how it needs to be beautiful and cerebral and entertaining. And finally the one who, despite her own illness,

drove for three hours to buy me a coffee and laugh with me. They are all there for me in their different ways. How lovely, Liz. Thank you for that. One more from Julia. When my husband died, people were kind and offered practical help, for which I will always be grateful. But the person who touched my soul was an elderly lady I hardly knew. She said, you need a hug,

embraced me and pressed a miniature bottle of brandy into my hand. I don't think I ever saw her again. But this brief encounter remains precious to me nearly 30 years later. 8-4, 8-4-4. Now, if you missed the programme on Friday,

Anita was live from Doncaster. Maybe you missed out. You can still catch it online. It was all about female entrepreneurs. Here's a taste of one of the women we heard from, Amy Furness, who was a nurse when she set up a dried flowers business. So I started my business while I was nursing and just did it sort of alongside working evenings and weekends. And then it sort of of the side hustle just grew into something bigger and bigger yeah so we started up at home um the house was completely chaos as you can imagine

boxes flowers everywhere um but we just made it work we worked till early hours um then i got up did my nine till five job um I worked as a practice nurse so I worked Monday to Friday um and then used to come home and then work up until like one and two in the morning wrapping parcels and getting stuff ready for people yeah would you say it was worth it a hundred percent at the time if you'd ask me that I used to go to work and think I used to dread going home because because of the mess usually go home to just be nice and clean and quiet have your tea and I can remember just moving pampas aside to put my dinner plate there to eat my dinner and then move the plate aside and just carry on wrapping yeah it was not something that you could have done for a long

time really. But where did that idea the first inkling that you wanted to do something different come from so um I want I was redecorating my house because when we bought the house it needed renovating so I was at the final stages of adding all the nice homey parts and I couldn't find pampas grass anywhere for sale um so I just that's really where it started I just went on the hunt looking for them and I thought surely if if I'm looking for pampas grass for my house, there's other people out there who are looking for the same. And, yeah, I had to make an order with a wholesaler, which had to be of a certain amount of money,

because they wouldn't allow me just to buy three stems what I wanted for my vase at home. So I ended up with this massive box of pampas coming I thought like what am I even going to do with all this um I can remember my husband said wow like what's going on um and yeah I just I thought there's definitely a gap in the market and I've always kept an open mind like I've always thought I need to be I've always just thought I can definitely do something I want to just do something for myself and that that were it yeah do you know what you

know what they say about pampas grass don't you yeah I do well I didn't until I started and then I thought I hope people don't think that yeah I'll tell you later am I the only person in the room who doesn't know um and now you've got your husband working with you as well. Yeah, so we do it together. Yeah, me and him do it together around the kids. It's a bit chaotic, but we make it work. So yeah, it's really good. We enjoy it, yeah. I'm not getting into the pampas grass discussion right here,

but there are lots more stories like that. Do listen if you get a chance. Head over to BBC Sounds to hear that full programme. And don't forget, you can get in touch with us on text 84844. I want to know who's in your support circle. Now, to the first in a new series on Women's Hour, Breaking the Cycle. Young people at risk of getting into trouble are likely to be involved with lots of agencies. Could be the police or education or the justice or health systems, for example.

And as the Independent Review of Children's Care put it, and I quote, they are all responding differently to that same teenager. Well, SHIFT is a new idea with the aim of tackling this. There are currently four SHIFT practices running around the country. Four more are on the way. And over the first year of a new one in Greater Manchester, our reporter Joe Morris went out and about with the team.

First Sally Dickon from Shift who paints a vivid picture of the young people that they're trying to help. A six foot tall 17 year old who stinks of weed and grunts at you doesn't evoke a lot of sympathy in a lot of people. It's not everybody's cup of tea. It's not everybody's cup of tea, that's not everybody's preferred profession. But it is yours. Yes, someone's got to do it. Shift is all about relationships. Guides are skilled practitioners who work with young people. The aim is to reduce re-offending and to find solutions and ways forward for those most at risk of getting into serious trouble.

They look for what they call the hook, which is whatever motivates someone to reflect and start taking steps towards a better life. The hook will be different for everyone. Today you'll hear from a parent, a guide, a child, and from Sally Dickin, who now works for Shift. She used to be the head of adolescent services in Tameside, Manchester. She's a qualified social worker

with 20 years experience and has worked with Youth Justice throughout her career. Why did she bring Shift in? It was obvious to me that this was able to fill a gap that I could see very clearly. In Youth Justice we get notified about children who are maybe coming to the attention of the police, or you just start to hear names bandied about of children who professionals are perhaps a little bit worried about. The same name keeps cropping up here and there. We can do an element of prevention work, but there's only so much we can do, and there's a big stigma around working with the Youth Justice Service as well. So we'd sort of get these children and be able to do a brief intervention with them.

But there wasn't the resource to be able to do anything longer and so you were almost waiting. For this mum you're about to hear and her teenage son, timing was everything. Much more from both of them later in the series. I knew something was wrong, I had that gut feeling but everyone was saying don't be dramatic, it's his age, he'll come round and I kept saying to my mum you just haven't got a clue but wouldn't tell me what I didn't have a clue over so for me I think we could have stopped it a lot sooner

if we would have known the right questions to ask him and how severe of a risk he was facing. You can see children, and it's not a criticism of systems, but they can be getting arrested and there's no outcome. And then they might be arrested three weeks later. so that's another offence and there's still no outcome for the first one and in that time no one's working with them to help to prevent it from happening so yeah that's frustrating all the evidence suggests the sooner you can get in when children start to get into trouble the greater impact you're likely to have. And I'm not saying that other professionals can't build those relationships. They absolutely can.

There's time constraints around how far they can go. What was the most appealing thing for you about the shift approach? The low caseloads, meaning that the workers are able to rip up the rule book and spend time doing that relationship building without the constraints of, right, well, it's three months, where have you got against the goals that were set around this intervention plan? And don't get me wrong, there is goal setting, but with a focus on getting that hook and getting that young person actually engaged they're not working with you because they've got to because they've got a court order or because you know they've got an outcome from the the police they want to something might go wrong actually your shift worker doesn't go away

they're still going to be there, stuck to you like Velcro. One of the first guides I met at shift was a woman called Imogen. I think this voice note that she sent me shows her dedication to the children she worked with. So it is just after seven o'clock. I sitting in my car it's dark outside i've just dropped off a young person we went to nando's they've been telling me all about what happened when they were stabbed and down to every little detail including the dinner that they had when they got back to their house and how now when they eat that thing, that food, spaghetti,

all they can do is remember what happened that day. So just drop them off. And now I am going to pick up a young woman who's 17. What often is quite sort of challenging is switching from one young person to another, particularly when they're telling new things which are deep, difficult stories. Hopefully our time together will be what she needs. The idea is that guides stick around for 18 months.

Of course, that is not always possible. Sadly, Imogen died suddenly in May last year after a short illness. The impact of her death is still being felt in the team and amongst the young people she worked with. It seemed important to pay tribute to her here. Manchester guide Robin is clear that the relationships at the heart of Shift take time to build. There's times when a young person might not want it or might not be ready

and I think you have to respect that to an extent. That was a thing at one point where I did kind of get told not to come back and stuff like that. Do you see that as a challenge? Yeah, but probably in a positive way, probably, yeah. It definitely kind of ignites something in me, makes me more inclined to find out what's really going on then for this young person, what's the reason why they're not engaging. Coming back and actually showing them, OK, hi, it's me again, I'm still here,

like a text message or just kind of popping in when they're at school and just seeing how they're doing, that can be just enough. So how were the young people who had been involved selected? The starting point was to ask professionals who were the children who kept them awake at night, who were the children who kept them awake at night, who were the children who, if we didn't do something, they were going to have really poor outcomes,

who were the children who they were really struggling to engage as well. We then looked at all the different data around them, how many exclusions they might have had from education, social care involvement, did they have any youth justice involvement? And then we were able to look at who are the ones who aren't currently getting a service or who are just on the periphery. So you started off with 83? Yep.

And you eventually whittled it down to? To our 27, yeah. Some of them just chose themselves. There were a lot of names that I knew and being the head of youth justice you get the overnight arrests or they were starting to go missing and coming through on the police missing list. I knew that they'd been bubbling if you like and it wasn't easy. Every single child you wanted. Of the 27, we've got two girls. It's not many, is it? No, but it's absolutely representative of the justice system in terms of children who end up in trouble with the police. Does that mean that they're not involved in stuff?

Or does it mean that they're not as readily arrested or stopped or they're not drawing as much attention to themselves? I don't know. So how do young women normally present to you then? They can be quite angry, always vulnerable and difficult backgrounds. These are girls who've fended for themselves quite a bit. So can you remember what you thought of Robin when you first met her? Do you remember how she came in and met you?

I've never had a worker like her. You've never had a worker like her? Yeah, different. She's nice. What does she do that's nice? Checks on me. Stop me from getting in trouble. Do you find it hard to keep out of trouble?

Or have you in the past? Yeah. I used to always get in trouble. Now I don't. We know what the risk factors are, being out of education. School is a huge protective factor in terms of having eyes and ears on children, monitoring them. So you're dealing with really complex issues. Yeah.

How hard is it to help some of the young people you're working with? How hard is it for you to reach them? Really hard. These aren't young people who are sat there waiting for someone to come along and help them they can often be mistrustful of adults that's what ultimately this is about it's getting young people to take charge and control of their own lives and their own futures, recognise their own worth and be able to see a future for themselves. It can be very, very hard and very challenging, but also very rewarding. Oh gosh, when I first came into social work, you came into it thinking I was going to

change the world. And you quickly, especially in the field of youth justice, you quickly change your opinion on that. And you're just grateful if someone smiles at you or says thank you. I love the young people. They're often very charismatic once you break down the barrier. And you start to see the person underneath and they realise they're not being judged. And you start to see the child as opposed to the image. What sort of teenager were you? Out in Manchester city centre in nightclubs.

Don't get me wrong, I was good and I worked hard at school. I was very lucky. I had supportive parents who supported me to achieve as much as I could. The children who I see coming into the service that I work for have not had that opportunity. Sally and I are both mums of young men and it would be fair to say we've both had our moments. The relationship between the guide and the young person is not parental, it's something different. Sometimes the role of the guide can be to just bring some clarity and some calm and some sort of shared understanding between young person, parent, carer. Dead easy professionally, I've got a teenage boy. Everything that I know professionally goes out of the window

as soon as emotion comes into it. You can say, how's that going? Yeah. Are there some young people who keep you up at night? Oh, yeah, there are. Emotionally goes out of the window as soon as emotion comes into it. You can say, how's that going? Yeah. Are there some young people who keep you up at night? Oh, yeah, there are. We've still got children who are going missing. Just because they've got a shift guide doesn't mean that they're magically turned around overnight.

This takes time, and that's always a worry. You can't force it, but at some point they will get it and see this as being a bit different. So it's got to be at that young person's pace. That's part of the joy when they're suddenly pleased to see you. They don't want to admit it, but you get a little smile. Small wins. Absolutely, 100%. It's small wins. Tell me about eva eva she's one of our guides

she gets soon people you can tell when you interview people who like teenagers the way that they talk about them they smile and you can see a genuine warmth you can't fake that that's what the kids feel as well because they can sniff you out kids they they know if you're genuine and tell me about robin robin she worked in school what came across was i'm in this role currently and i see so much more that i could be doing and i just want to do so much more she's young energetic What would you say to someone who thinks these kids are just problem kids and it's too late, you can't change their situation or their behaviour? I'd say try and step into their shoes. Could you imagine if your whole life was defined about

something you'd done wrong? If everyone who looked at you looked at your worst day of your life Gallech chi ddychmygu os oedd eich bywyd gyfan yn deillio am rywbeth rydych chi wedi'i wneud yn anghywir? Os oedd pawb sy'n edrych aroch chi wedi edrych ar ddiwrnod y peth gorau o'ch bywyd, neu wedi edrych ar y peth gorau rydych chi wedi'i wneud, ac roedd hynny'n yr un peth roedden nhw wedi siarad amdano pan ddywedoddant amdano amdano chi? Oherwydd dyna'r ffordd mae bywyd yn ei fodlon i rai o'r plant hyn. Fel cymdeithas, beth ydym ni wir eisiau i'r bobl ifanc hyn? Rydym ni eisiau iddyn nhw fod yn aelodau cyfrifol, a oedd yn cyflawni'n dda, yn byw mewn bywydau llaw, yn byw bywydau cyfrifol, yn cyfrannu at y cymuned a'r economi.

Ac yna gofyn i chi eich hun, sut y gallwn ni eu bod yn hynny? Os ydych chi'n meddwl bod y ateb yw drwy'u hwydo nhw a'u dweud eu bod i gyd yn llwyr, well how do we get them to be that? If you think the answer is by punishing them and saying that they're all rubbish then that's your conclusion but that's not mine. It's by making them believe that they've got a brighter future and that they can be more than what society currently thinks they are. In terms of the cost of running a programme like SHIFT if we just prevent one or two from going into custody or into care, then it's paid for itself. It's really hard to demonstrate when you're trying to prove something hasn't happened. Are you hopeful? Always hopeful.

You've got to be working with teenagers. Jo Morris was the reporter there. Tomorrow, Jo will be out on the road with one of the reporter there. Tomorrow, Joe will be out on the road with one of the shift guides. That's Eva riding shotgun in a Mercedes A-Class, fielding calls and hanging on the telephone. I'm looking forward to hearing that.

I was asking you earlier about your support system. Who do you turn to in times of trouble? Well, I want to read a message that came into us. She says, I want to read a message that came in to us. She says, I was diagnosed with Hodgkin's disease when I was 26 and studying for my degree in Spain.

I was desperately unwell and I had nowhere to live in England. My two beloved sisters, Sam and Mand, came to my rescue. They ran a pub in Tottenham on the Tottenham Court Road in London and they took me to live with them and they cared for me through my illness and treatment. Coming to my hospital visits for treatment every day as well as running their business and even letting me top and tail in their beds when I was feeling really bad like we did

when we were little I wouldn't have got through such a difficult time without them it's now 30 years later and they're still my best friends and support system. I love them and appreciate them enormously. And it's Man's 55th birthday today. Happy birthday, Man's. And thank you for your message coming in to Woman's Hour there off your sister. Well, next, I want to turn to an author who made a huge personal sacrifice to bring her debut novel to the world. These letters end in tears, follows the stories of two girls, Fatima and Besim, who spot each other across a football field.

And Fatima, the only girl playing among a sea of boys, with a wink in Besim's direction, starts a relationship that will shape both of their lives. In Cameroon, where this story is based, same-sex relationships are punishable by law. Mushi Teji Zavieh felt she had to leave her home country in order to publish it. She now calls the UK home,

and I'm pleased to say she joins me in the Woman's Hour studio. Xavier, good morning, and welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me. Well, let us start with Bessam and Fatima. I mentioned them there. Why did you want to tell that story? Being gay in Cameroon is probably one of the worst places in the world to be gay. Gay people in the country have to face discrimination, social stigma, lack of protection, legal persecution, sometimes forced marriages, and lack of... They can't access healthcare for fear of being outed by healthcare professionals.

There are so many challenges. But what I love seeing is that even under such awful conditions, they still find ways to persevere and build communities. Soulmates are still finding each other. People are falling in love every day. Some people say that it's a choice to be gay. I mean, why would anyone in their right mind want to live that kind of life in a place like Cameroon? I'm a hopeless romantic. I believe in love so powerful that it can overcome anything. So in my book, I was trying to not just capture the struggles of gay people in Cameroon, but also to celebrate love, that beauty can grow even in dark places. And the reason I decided to tell this story is because I am very passionate about representation

and visibility for the LGBTQ plus community. Storytelling, I believe, is a very powerful tool that can be used to change minds, challenge stereotypes and just create more empathy for other people. I wanted to help people understand LGBTQ plus people more, especially in Cameroon where these voices have been silenced for so long and misrepresented. I hoped that my book would inspire dialogue, get people talking. Maybe that can lead to a more inclusive society. I'm not the first one in my country to speak out on the topic. I won't be the last. I just hope to see more positive LGBTQ plus content. But I think we actually hear very little from Cameroon in the UK. And I think that's why I was so pulled in by your book. It is beautiful. I found it heartbreaking. It comes in a series of letters of Bessam to Fatima. And I feel like we

know these characters intimately, particularly Bessam, by the time we finish this book. Tell me a little, was it based on anything you saw or knew in Cameroon, the person of Bessam? Oh, you mean like how I created her character? Yeah, her character. I mean, it's so well-rounded. I feel like I can see her when I even think about the book. Well, compulsory heterosexuality is very common in Cameroon. When a woman is of age, she starts getting these questions. When are you going to get married? And I know a lot of people who have, you know, gotten themselves involved in unions they are not ready for. And Bessem, Bessem, she, Bessem is, Bessem is beautiful. She's smart. She's also judgmental.

She's not perfect. She's judgmental in the way that most African aunties are because she's an African auntie, always in your face asking you, why is your skirt so short? You're getting fat. She's also very loyal. You can see that in how she stays true to Fatima through the years and in her relationship with her best friend Jamal.

Her life is also very sad. She lives in constant fear of being found out, how that is going to affect her reputation, which she has worked very hard to build. And you can see how her family knows about her sexuality. You see how that has affected the relationship with her family and her first best friend. So, yeah. And Fatima instead, a completely different character. Yeah, Fatima is a very completely different character.

With her, there's also what we come up against them, that they're also from different religions. Tell me why you decided to bring that into the book. Cameroon is majority Christian, and we have a small population of Muslims. I wouldn't say that there is a conflict between Muslims and Christians in Cameroon. There's a conflict between the Francophones and Anglophones. It's not the same, they have the same way how they view being gay. So I wanted to, my point, I was not trying to point a finger at the specific religion, this religion, this, this way. I just wanted to point a finger on religion in general. They share the same views.

And what they come under can be at times very violent. You talk about love and that you're hopeless romantic, but there's also this dark side to the relationship that is there coming from other people. Do you feel that their story could be an accurate portrayal of what it's like for gay people in Cameroon today? I would not say that the story of Bessem and Fatima can be used as an example of what being gay is like in Cameroon. It's just two people out of millions of people. But I tried my best to make it as accurate as possible.

I know there are so many different stories in the country. And I hope that by telling this story, more people will be encouraged to come out and tell their own stories too. While I was reading it, Ghana was in the news because they had a bill that they passed that imposed a prison sentence of up to three years for anyone convicted of identifying as LGBT.

There is a Supreme Court challenge to it and it was really interesting. The finance ministry warned that billions of dollars in World Bank funding could be lost if it became law, kind of punishing Ghana, shall we say, for that law. In Cameroon, the law doesn't criminalise people who identify as LGBT, but it does state that the same-sex sexual activity is illegal. So there are some parallels there. Are you watching that? Are you thinking also whether there might be any pushback to the laws in Cameroon in the way that there is pushback in Ghana?

I don't remember there ever being like pushback to that law in Cameroon. Maybe it happened and I was too young. I think that the current sentence now is five years with a fine. And the thing about the LGBTQ law in Cameroon is, I mean, the law says one thing, but what is happening outside is quite different. We have people who have been arrested for cross-dressing, which is very confusing because you read the law, it says one thing, and what is happening out on the street is not the same. And say, for example, if people find out that you're gay, and you might be stoned to death before the police ever gets there.

And even if the police gets there, I'm not sure they are going to save you. So it's really complicated like that. I understand. And obviously, I don't have a Cameroonian official to respond to the portrayal. But I do want to talk about you specifically as well. You did this at huge personal cost, writing this book, leaving your home because of the way a story like this could be interpreted in Cameroon. How difficult was that? I started writing my book, These Letters End in Tears, in 2020. I mean, it was just something on my laptop. And when I got a book deal, this is when it became

very real for me. I was asking myself all these questions like, oh, this thing was just something on my laptop. And when I got a book deal, this is when it became very real for me. I was asking myself all these questions like, oh, this thing was just on your laptop before. Now people are going to read it. And I became very frightened because I knew what was going to happen to me. But my life is not under threat for my government in any way. I left as a precautionary measure. And I remember having a conversation with my publisher and my agent and I'm like, I'm really, I'm concerned about this. What if I get arrested or something? And my mentor, British author, JJ Bola, he told me to think very carefully about it. And he told me that I should know that I have the option to publish under a pseudonym

if I didn't feel safe enough to publish under my name. If you ask me what was the thing I struggled the most on this journey, I would say it was deciding whether to publish under my name or under a pseudonym. I have family in Cameroon and friends I was reluctant to leave behind. I had built a life for myself there and the idea of backing up everything just to start over in a new country is really a scary thing.

But I also knew that moving here, I have more chances to succeed as a writer. I really need to let our listeners know that you're the first Cameroonian to get an international book deal. Such a huge achievement. I know.

Yes, I am the first, let me say, Cameroonian based when I lived in Cameroon. The right that you ever get an international. And you had to, I was watching you online, you had to convince one female publisher to take you on because usually you would have needed a man within those negotiations to try and get that deal. the non-publishers we have there they only publish books for schools textbooks for schools because there's a market for that so you hardly find a publisher investing in say an individual but I've seen a lot of independent publishers online lately

encouraging manuscripts from writers. But for me, when I decided to self-publish my YA fiction novel, these options were not available to me. So I wrote the book, I had to edit, and then I approached a printer, paid for the cost of printing. And then I published the book myself. And it was really difficult for me to do all of that, convince them to work with me. But you did it. Yeah, I did. And the book is there now. It is called These Letters End in Tears.

No, that was my self-published one. This one is my traditionally published debut novel is These Let Us End in Tears. And your full name is Mushi Teji Zavier, but I know you go by Zavier as we have been speaking. Thank you so much for coming into us on the Woman's Hour Studio. It's such a beautiful book. We really appreciate your time. I want to read a couple of comments before we go. As about support groups, I always reach out to my closest friends. We seem to have created

a group of friends who are good at a party but great at a shipwreck. I'll be back again tomorrow at 10 talking about the trend for anti-aging products for people as young as 8. I will see you then.

Thanks for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Natalie Cassidy. And I'm Joanna Page. Now you might know me as Sonia from EastEnders. And Stacey from Gavin and Stacey. And while sometimes we are on the telly,

mostly we just love watching it. So that's what we're talking about in our podcast, Off the Telly. We're chatting about shows we just can't miss and the ones that aren't quite doing it for us. That comfort telly we can't get enough of. And things we know we shouldn't watch but we just can't miss and the ones that aren't quite doing it for us. That comfort telly we can't get enough of. And things we know we shouldn't watch but we just can't help ourselves. And we'll be hearing about all the telly you think we should be watching and talking about too.

No judgement here. Well, a bit. Join us for Off The Telly. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.