Woman's Hour - Anne Longfield, Shonda Rhimes, Betsy Beers, Sudha Bhuchar, Claire Mason, Romy Gill

Episode Date: November 4, 2022

Shonda Rhimes and Betsy Beers are the producing partners behind some of the biggest American TV dramas of modern times – and they are always female character led. They include Grey’s Anatomy, Scandal, How to Get Away with Murder, and of course the Netflix hit Bridgerton – adapted from Julia Quinn’s racy novels set in the Regency era in England. The first series was released at the end of 2020, and is well known for having racially diverse cast and steamy sex scenes. Anita Rani speaks to Shonda and Betsy about their work and new projects.We hear how primary school pupils, as well as youngsters from middle class ‘leafy suburbs’, are being lured into gangs and county lines drug running according to Anne Longfield in her new report for the Commission on Young Lives.A new project, led by Lancaster University, has created memory boxes, designed to help women whose babies are taken into care at birth while a court determines their child’s future. We hear why these ‘Hope boxes’ are so important to the women who developed the idea and Research Fellow, Claire Mason who supported them. And discuss why the number of newborns in care proceedings in England and Wales has increased over the past decade.The actor and playwright Sudha Bhuchar discusses ‘Evening Conversations’ currently on stage at the Soho Theatre in London. And Inspired by the epic Himalayan scenes featured in Bollywood films, chef and food writer Romy Gill details her journey from Kashmir to Ladakh, sharing recipes she learned along the way.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Michael Millham

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. We are rolling out the Woman's Hour red carpet this morning for TV royalty Shonda Rhimes and Betsy Beers, the game-changing duo behind Grey's Anatomy, Scandal, How to Be a Murderer and Bridgerton. They'll be on the programme shortly. And anyone hungry will be feeding you this morning. Chef Romy Gill is coming in to talk about her trip through the Himalayas and the recipes she picked up while she was there for her new cookbook. I've heard a rumour she's bringing

something in to eat, which I'm delighted by. So technically, it's me that's getting fed. Sorry, but I will let you know how it tastes. And sticking with food, the queen of TV cookery, Delia Smith, has spoken out about TV chefs and the use of boys toys, as she describes them in the kitchen. She says sous vide is just the lads showing off. So who, if anyone out there, actually has a water bath for meat in their kitchen? Is it you? Are you someone who loves a kitchen gadget? Do you even use them? Are you the person who has to have the latest piece of kitchen technology? What have you got?

Gathering dust somewhere? A fondue set? Pasta maker? Air fryer? Slow cooker? A milk frother? Spiralizer? Or as my mum had, a yoghurt maker. The list is endless.

I want you to fess up and share your kitchen gadgetry shame on the programme. What's gathering dust and even worse, taking up space? But I also want to hear some love stories too. What's the gadget you can't live without? For me, it's my mini blender. Oh, how I love it. I love that it grinds things so finely. And also, it's mini. What's not gadget you can't live without? For me, it's my mini blender. Oh, how I love it. I love that it grinds things so finely. And also it's mini. What's not to love? And also someone mentioned a Breville toaster this morning in the Woman in touch in the usual way. Text me 84844. You can contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour.

And you can get in touch with us via our website as well if you want to send us an email. Oh, and also we have a WhatsApp number, which I'm sure you know about because you'll have it saved to your phones. 03700 100 444. We're also going to hear about hope boxes. It's an idea that's been developed by women

whose babies were taken into care immediately after birth to try and ease the pain for other women going through the same trauma. Also on the show this morning, we'll hear about a new report which says younger and younger children are getting sucked into county lines gangs and also why some grannies are turning to drug running. And actor Sudha Bhatia will be in to talk about her new one-woman show inspired by conversations with her millennial dual heritage sons now shonda rhimes and betsy beers are producing partners behind some of the biggest american tv dramas of modern times they are heavyweights in the industry from Grey's Anatomy, Scandal, How to Get Away with Murder, and of course, the Netflix hit Bridgerton, adapted from Julia Quinn's

racy novels set in the Regency era in England. While they're busy shooting series three and four at the moment, but Shonda and Betsy have also now written a behind the scenes book called Inside Bridgerton. I joined them both on video call to talk about it and first of all I asked Shonda why they decided to pull back the curtain on how the show's made. We spent so much time talking about how amazing the crafts people who work on the show were and all the incredible intricate things that went into making the show like we were stunned by like all of this incredible work with the bespoke costumes and the stuff going on with the hair and production design and music.

So we just continuously were talking about it and really wanted a chance to highlight the magic that they made, as well as give people a real behind the scenes glimpse of what it takes to make a show like this. And it's done in a really nice form because it's the two of you and lots of the cast and crew being interviewed about how Bridgerton was made. Just for our listeners, Betsy, could you explain exactly what your roles are as exec producers? I'm a non-writing executive producer, which means I'm involved from everything from the very, very beginning of a project, meaning the idea, the concept, finding the IP,

talking to the writer through presenting the project, through the process of writing, then into production, all the way through post into publicity. So it's a wonderful job. And I think a lot of people certainly don't understand what I do, but I get a lot of praise and accolades for what I do. And I think a lot of this came from the fact that there are all these people who have these incredible jobs that people don't even know exist. Because when you watch the credits of a question, you know, which is, how do you do it? What did it take? Yeah, it's interesting you say that. A lot of my friends in production often say, my mother doesn't actually know what I do.

She just thinks. Oh, exactly. Because even if you see the credits, you don't quite know what that job is. And it was a chance to really go behind the scenes and show what those jobs were. Yeah. As an EP, Betsy and I, it's so funny. We always say we're two halves of a whole sometimes, and sometimes we overlap. But I really oversee the scripts, casting.

I feel like casting is one of my great skills to help with. Oh, yeah. Definitely. And then I always say the script goes into the machine that is production and comes out the other end, and then I'm all about working on the edits and the post and helping with that. And it was you, Shonda, that was reading Julia Quinn's book,

which is what the Bridgerton series is based on, and decided this is what I want to talk about. And I love the chapter in the book, which is Julia Quinn on getting the call from her agent. And she says this, she says this thing about how nobody makes TV series or films out of historical romances. And she says, let's be honest, it's a genre that's written primarily by women. It's read primarily by women. It's edited primarily by women. And you have a film industry where up until recently it's primarily men making decisions until that is you two turned up on the scene you know for us it was exciting because I read the books and felt like I could see it you know like I could really see it and the longer I went you know Betsy thought

I was crazy at first but then she read them too and the longer I did the more it felt like it could be a series and it's sort of tailor-made there are eight books there are eight siblings there you know there could be eight seasons it also was a chance to tell stories that had a closed-ended happy ending and I kind of couldn't believe that nobody had done this before and it was that opportunity to reimagine the world and you know so much of even what Julia Quinn in the book presents is a view of a period of time we've never really seen before. At least I haven't. And as you get into them and as you start to understand the characters and as she said, you know, that the possibility for storytelling and ongoing storytelling, the world of the ton was something that I knew nothing about. I mean, I didn't really understand how that existed, what the rules were. And it was such a delightful and incredible world to be able to dive into as well. I mean, there was a whole other aspect to the books that I think were certainly new to me and were a delight to be able to present.

And the casting, completely radical. Why was the inclusive, diverse casting so important? Because it's obvious. When I read Julia Quinn's books, I saw myself. I could place myself in the shoes of the character. And I want to see myself included too. We don't do colorblind casting. We do color conscious casting.

And we're very conscious of how we're setting the period and what we're doing in the period and does it make sense for the story that we're telling. And there's been a lot of erasure in history of people of color and we are not interested in that. We're interested in sort of highlighting. And the women particularly are amazing in this. I wanna talk about some of the characters.

Can we start with Lady Danbury, the only free woman in the room? She does stand out because she has that freedom that comes from being an independent widow. And she does stand as a very, very interesting contrast to, you know, both the marriage mart and the characters who are in different stages of their lives, like Lady Violet Bridgerton, whose focus is incredibly different. And of course, Queen Charlotte herself. Yeah, I mean, I always say that this is still, you know, like we do workplace dramas, and this is still a workplace drama.

Exactly. Their workplace is the marriage mart. That's really like where they go, and success is, you know, judged very differently than we would judge success now. And Lady Danbury, I feel like, is a person who we can sort of feel mind the system to her advantage, which is crazy. But the only free woman is a woman whose rich husband is dead

in a lot of ways and doesn't have any sons to take her title. So it felt like, you know, we were creating this very free woman who could sort of do what she wanted and say what she wanted, because of both her age and her station in life. I want to bring in some other characters, Eloise, who would rather be reading a book than going to a ball. Very important feminist character in Bridgerton. She always was. And I think, you know, I always say Eloise is, to some extent, me, like I would never have managed in that world, but also to some extent, so many women out there, we really needed to represent what happens to an intelligent, intellectual woman when they are trapped in this world.

Exactly. And watch her deal with the limited choices. She's just this very kind of gimlet eye point of view on the entire situation. And as played by Claudia Jesse, too, it's just such a delight to watch. And female friendships are equally as important in your work as romantic relationships. I'm thinking of Grey's Anatomy as well. Why is this important for the two of you? Because it's a core part of my life, certainly, and is a thing that I think we value tremendously. And I think that certainly when we started working together 20 years ago,

there were not very many representations that I felt on the small screen or large screen that really, really embodied what it's like to be in a relationship with a close friend. I mean, here's the thing, too, that I think is so important. You know, female friendships are a reality. And I've never heard an interview where anybody asks why the bros in Ocean's Eleven are bros. Like, I think it's fascinating that we actually find it special to see female friendship portrayed on screen when it's so obviously a reality in everyone's world. It's sad, really, isn't it?

Yeah, I was just about to say it. I mean, it's sad that we're still having the conversation, frankly, because it's still not something which is assumed. I think the more women producers and writers that sort of show up in the world as they come up, the more stories we're going to see that adequately and accurately portray the lives of women. Yeah, which is why it's so important to have these different voices telling stories

because without it, the narrative stays the same. Well, which is why it's so important that we've got the two of you who are at the top to be able to make the decisions. So Shonda, I'd like to ask you how you think you have made the landscape different and easier for women of colour coming up through the ranks beneath you? I mean, I always think that there's somebody who is the first one and that first one is forced to top a path. And, you know, I can't say that I've definitely made it easier, but you can't be what you can't see.

So hopefully I've helped to be an example of what can be done. But more importantly, Betsy and I really created a world in which we made clear that there's a serious economic model and serious economic benefit to having an incredibly inclusive cast. The more inclusive your cast is, the more viewers watch, the more advertising dollars you get, the more money you make. And that was a fact that we were able to establish with Grey's Anatomy and how to get with murder and scandal. And doing that, I think, is really what helps pave the way. That's really well put. Thank you, Betsy.

You're welcome. So where do you get your tenacity and your resilience from? Because it must have been quite a battle to get into a position where you even have a seat at the table to be able to tell them this. I mean, I can speak to part of that, which is simply you do it because there's no other choice. I mean, you love the work and there's something you believe in and you care desperately about it. And you think it's really, really important that people get to see what you're seeing. So I don't know that I think of it as much of a battle as simply the job. And look, yes, there have been periods along the way,

and Shana can speak to this probably even more so than I can, but there have been moments along the way in which nobody, you don't necessarily ever get a sense that anybody is seeing what you are seeing. And I've always sort of said, like, if we love it, then I want to show it. I was really raised to believe that, you know, I belong in every room that I'm in. And I think what was great about meeting Betsy is that Betsy is that kind of a forceful person, too. And we sort of marched into a lot of rooms together.

And having each other made it easier. But also, you know, I don't think that I needed to grow any tenacity. I think that we gave each other courage. But we also were just fundamentally women who never occurred to us that we shouldn't be invited to the party. Exactly. Exactly. It, it, it never occurred to me, it would have always surprised me. You feel like you belong in the room and I'm so inspired by it. Loads of women listening will be inspired to hear that. But do you feel that you've had to fight to be paid for what you're worth by the networks? And this is a conversation that we are still having with women in all industries.

And that is fighting to be paid what we are worth. I do not think that I've had to fight to be paid what I am worth. Which is a very, I want to be clear, is incredibly rare. You know, when you have Grey's Anatomy as your first television show out of the gate, there's a different kind of way that you enter the world. I also happen to believe that you never enter a negotiation you're not absolutely willing to walk away from. And that has, you know, you set that in your mind and then you say, well, they didn't do that. I'm walking away. And that has served me well

across the board. That does not mean that I think that a ton of other women are not wildly underpaid and are judged differently than men and have had to fight. And I think that that will be something that equal pay will be something that I think is vital and important for everybody in this business and in all the other businesses, actually. I mean, equal pay, huge topic. Absolutely. And we are still fighting for that. I'm five years on Betsy, where do you think we are with Me Too in the industry? Has anything changed? I hope so. I hope so. I think at least, at the very least, there is a precedent for speaking out and speaking loudly about what is going on. And I think there are more support systems out there. I think there's always still obviously work to be done. And in different places in the world, as we are seeing right now, these issues continue still to be to be done. And in different places in the world, as we are seeing right now,

these issues continue still to be obviously rampant. But one big example, Betsy, I think Betsy really was adamant about and like made sure it happened for us on set was having intimacy coordinators on set, you know, that we talked about that in the book. And that piece, I think, is a very good example of what Me Too brought five years on because they didn't even exist before. Right, Bets? That is absolutely correct. But I also have to say, Shonda, like one of the things which has always been key in the

work here is Shonda has said from the very, very beginning, you never, ever make someone do something that they feel uncomfortable doing. So there was a great sort of, I think, emotional and theoretical precedent that was set. Absolute game changers. And I really enjoyed speaking to them. Betsy Beers there and Shonda Rimes, the writing and producing team behind some of the most successful female-led TV dramas of our times. And their new book is called Inside Bridgerton. This morning, I've asked you

to talk to me about the kitchen gadgets that you have that are gathering dust but it seems like lots of you use your kitchen gadgets um i bought an air fryer to reduce costs says john samuel hardly any warm-up time quicker cooking for most things saves the waste gas electric electricity and warming up a large oven uh someone else has said, I'm very happy with my Lakeland yogurt maker. Quite old now, but simple and makes delicious yogurt. Fair enough. My mum's definitely gathered dust. I have a huge passion for kitchen equipment

and certainly couldn't live without my sous vide. My late uncle, Keith Floyd, hang on a minute, is that a name drop of the late great Keith Floyd, RIP, says used to gently take the mic Mickey out of my passion for gadgets. See, even Keith Floyd was taking the Mickey out of them. Mike says Mike and Karen says my wife and I have a Thermomix. It's a German industrial standard food processor, but it cooks as well and it's connected to the Internet.

It's big and expensive, but we use it nearly every single day. So many of you getting in touch with your kitchen gadgets. Keep them coming in 84844. Now, on to our next story. Children as young as nine are getting sucked into drug dealing and violence. And now grandmothers are also being forced into helping their grandchildren. With thousands of young people in England groomed, harmed and killed, says a new and final report from the Commission on Young Lives,

a commission that was launched in September 2021, working towards transforming the outcomes of most marginalised teenagers. Well, the commission says that the systems that are supposed to keep young people safe are not fit for purpose. I'm joined by Anne Longfield, former Children's Commissioner for England and now Chair of the Independent Commission on Young Lives. Anne, welcome to Woman's Hour. Morning. Morning. We know that teenagers are used for county lines. I think lots of people hearing the age of nine will be very shocked. What's happening?

Well, it's horrific. And I think this shows how far this has gone. What we've got is that there are ruthless criminals who are on the lookout constantly for more and more children that they can target and exploit. They want kids because they think they're easy to get. They think they're cheap, you know, easy to kind of order around and less likely to be caught ultimately and they will pick on the most vulnerable kids and what we've seen two big developments over the last couple of years because of course the pandemic made this much worse it really rocket boosted vulnerability the two developments one is that now social media is being used much more as a way of getting to kids, which means that it's moving out of just the most disadvantaged areas, which it still is mainly. But there's many more families, more middle class families in leafy suburbs that are now experiencing this. And then the other thing, tragically, is that the age of the kids involved is now reducing. So what would have been still young, you know, 11 and 12 year olds doing

the delivering, the so-called running, has now dropped down to 9, 10, 11. But also we've heard of young children at the age of 14 who are now organising, running the county line, delivering the drugs across the country with other 13 and 14 year olds. They, of course, have been targeted and groomed themselves. But the fact they're put into that position, which, you know, is so dangerous on every level, is just something which we believe is a real, again, a real, you know, a real fact of the way we are. And now older family members are also being roped in. The headlines this morning have picked up on your research

from the Commission saying that grandmothers are aiding their grandchildren. Well, I think, again, it shows how far it's gone. We've been told about this by youth workers who say that, yes, the children are intimidated because, of course, they're showered with affection and with money and that sense of belonging at first. Then it turns to huge intimidation and violence

and they will threaten other family members too. We've got a cost of living crisis, which means that more families and young people are desperate for cash. So it shows how far this grip is getting. It is, though, in our view, very preventable, which is why we've set out to put proposals for solutions that could really break this cycle. And before we talk about what they are, just to get into what you mentioned earlier, how social media now is infiltrating

the middle classes, what's happening there? So the children who are disadvantaged, living in poverty with difficult family home environments, you know, in urban areas, had the ones that who have been involved in targeted for being involved in some of these activities for some time but over the last couple of years especially with lockdown which made it difficult for you know the exploiters to get to children or more difficult didn't stop them um they turned to social media and then of course they want to be able to deliver drugs in areas more affluent areas and they don't want those young people to be spotted.

So it's almost like a business, you know, a classic business cascade model. They will find young people online, they will target and groom them. There will usually be some form of vulnerability, you know, the child might be buying drugs in the first, there'll be a route in, there's always a chink of an entry point for someone who's trying to exploit those kids. But of course, it's online, so it's much less visible for parents to know about. How concerned are you about the role the economy and the cost of living is going to impact all of this? Well, I mean, there's a deeply worrying economic undercurrent to all of this.

You know, this is largely children who are growing up poor and we know that the number of children who are poor is increasing all the time and has done. These are the kids who've had most of their support services taken away over the last 10 years, 70% cut in youth workers, in youth centres, in places to go. We've almost vacated the area, if you like, and the exploiters have moved in. The cost of living crisis, all the youth workers will tell you things are getting more extreme, more frequent. But then any thought of austerity coming down the tracks is one that will only be a gift for those exploiters that are looking to do more business.

It's good business for exploiters and for those that are seeking to get quick criminal gains when young kids are vulnerable. Especially when parents are maybe out more having to work, doing double shifts. Absolutely. We've spoken to a lot of families who've been in this situation over the last year. It's heartbreaking, of course. They find signs of some kind of activity in their child's bedroom. You know, their heart stops. They see a burner phone. They see cash, even a knife.

But they have to carry on working, especially if they're lone parents, to bring income into the family. They'll go to, you know, huge lengths to ensure that their children know where they are, that they know what's going on. But often these are kids where, you know, they might be struggling at school or the people who exploit them might want to get them excluded from school. So, you know, this is just another level of vulnerability and families are at their wits end to know what to do about it. Well, Anne, you said it's preventable. What are the solutions? Well, if you think of all the things that are driving this, it's a mirror image of what you do about it. We want to see an army of youth workers, youth practitioners, that they're

out there on the streets, they're there in the local communities, organising activities, building relationships, helping guide kids to a much better future, advice and proper support, practical support for young people and families. We're proposing that there's a Sure Start Plus model wrapped around secondary schools, drawing on the Sure Start that we saw for younger children, but, you know, ensuring that there's trusted people there, proper support, being able to respond. And we do think that government needs to acknowledge the scale and magnitude and threat of this and really lead a huge mission across government to coordinate and put the engine of government behind this, because it's costing billions and it's costing lives as well. And neither of those things need

to happen. Anne Longfield, thank you very much for speaking to me about this this morning. I'm sure it's something we will be coming back to on the programme. If indeed it has impacted your life or you want to share one of your stories, please do get in touch with us. You can email us via our websites. Anne Longfield for now. Thank you, the chair of the Independent Commission on Young Lives. We've had a statement from a spokesperson for the Department of Education, which says safety from abuse, neglect and exploitation is fundamental right for every child.

Local authorities are responsible for protecting vulnerable children. And we've made an additional £4.8 billion available to them up to 2025 to deliver key services. Like I said, if you would like to get in touch with us about anything here on the programme, then please feel free to do so. The text number is 84844. Now, the removal of a newborn baby from his or her mother at birth in response to safeguarding concerns is an understandably emotionally charged and highly contentious issue and a situation that's become more frequent over the last decade. Well, the Born Into Care project at Lancaster University has been in place for several years now, developing practice guidelines designed to introduce more sensitive and humane practices when the state intervenes at birth. The Hope Mums are the 12 women involved with the project who've had their babies taken into care while a court determines their child's future.

They, with the support of research fellow Claire Mason from the university, have developed memory boxes that they call Hope Boxes, Hope standing for Hold On, Pain Eases, to help other mothers and babies going through what they've experienced we'll hear a clip from some of the mums in a moment but first i'm joined by claire merson to understand more about this and welcome to women's hour claire thanks very much the women involved with you on this project prefer to call call them hope boxes what is a hope box and where did the idea come from so um hope stands for hold on pain eases and the boxes there's two boxes one for the mother and one for baby and they were developed by a group of women who've been supporting the whole research project as you said we've been working since 2019

on this project to develop new guidelines to improve practice around separation at birth. And this group of women have been with us on that journey and when they heard that in some parts of the country there were already midwives who were adapting bereavement boxes because often in the SASS situation where babies died there are already memory boxes used in that situation and there were a group of midwives who were trying to adapt this to use for women where there was the separation at birth and we also heard foster carers who had were specialists in looking after newborn babies that had been separated from their mothers we're also trying to find ways to keep

connection between mother and baby. And when our group of women heard about this, they really wanted to develop something bespoke, something special that really spoke to their experiences and through what we'd learned from the research. And that's how the Hope Boxes were born. What sorts of things were put in them? So in the Mother's Box, there's four stages for the hope boxes so they follow the journey of mother and baby through the system so at first it's about recognition we know that in the kind of the busyness of what happens around when there's a separation at birth which

is often the focus on the legal process that not enough recognition is given to the woman's trauma and to the baby. And so what we wanted to do was to start by catching early mementos of that baby's life that are often not the focus. And so there's hand and footprint kits, there's an SD card to take photographs, there's a baby record book so that the mother can keep some of those early memories of her baby. And then the second stage is about after separation. And as I said, there's a box that goes with baby and a box that goes with mum and they contain matching items that can be swapped at family time. So the baby keeps a scent of its mother through a swapping of a blanket and an elephant, a soft toy. And the mother gets to keep the scent of the baby. And that's so important, particularly if the mother is breastfeeding, but also to settle the baby

into placement. And then there are items which are about reducing shame and stigma. This is an acutely stigmatising experience for women. And what our Hope Mums wanted to say was, we've been there, we've been through this, you're not the only ones. And so they've written a letter and a poem to connect them so that they know they're not alone. And that's where the name Hold On Pain Easies comes from. And lastly, if there is a permanent separation, there are items that are around helping with loss and grief. So the mothers told us they don't get the baby's name band, for example, or the cock card.

And those items matter so much. And we learned from bereavement charities how important it is that there are items to help with loss and grief. And in the baby's box, equally, a baby record book where they've got the detail of their early moments with their mother, which adopted adults told us they often don't have that information about the pregnancy,

about the birth, about those first few days with their mother in hospital. Who were the women involved and why would their babies have been taken away? So the women that were involved, the Hope Mums, there are 12 women that were recruited through a number of organisations, all of whom had been through a separation at birth. These are all individual women with individual stories so the reasons were diverse. Obviously they had issues at the time so for example things you'd expect domestic violence, mental health difficulties, substance misuse difficulties but also what they really share and which often isn't talked about

is often very traumatic experiences in their own childhoods and adolescence. And we know the way the services are set up at the moment, that help just doesn't come early enough in pregnancy to be able to maybe turn things around, access to specialist provision, particularly around mental health for example or specialist support for domestic abuse sometimes happens too late in pregnancy to be really sure

that the woman was able to take that baby home well i think i'm claire we need to hear from a few of the women themselves and what hope boxes mean to them and why they are such an important intervention? I feel like the hope boxes, the part that they will play is for the mothers to let them know that they're not the only ones, that they're not alone. Because I remember when I was going through it, I felt alone. It also lets them know that there's people out there that have been through this and you will survive. Because when you're in that the pain that comes of losing a child you never think it's going to end you know and that kind of goes to where we've got the name hope from you know hold on pain eases like it's never going to go away like even if you have your child return to your care but it gets easier over time and it's to

let these women know that there's women that came before you who've been through this experience it's something to keep the connection between mother and child i think it's very very important not just for mum but for child as well you miss out on little things like them burping or the smiling and the feeding because you're trying to fight for them and having the hot box with them little details in so that you can look back and go oh that's when that happened or look that there's a first smile i don't remember that happening but it's there because there are things that i don't remember from hospital. Because I was concentrating on preparing for court. It's still a bereavement even though the baby's not dead.

And also the fact that you will want it eventually. At the time you don't feel like you do. But after a little while and there are memories that you don't want to just cut them off. You do want to look back and think it's a keepsake for yourself to show that you've had this child. It's not like you've come out of the hospital and you've come up with nothing. Because you still have to go back to your home where everyone knows that you was pregnant. Everyone's seen you're pregnant. First thing they ask is where's your baby?

So at least you can have some sort of comfort really it's more of a comforting thing I'd say the boxes was where they're not coming out with the car seat and the baby, they're coming out of a box with something of the baby. Walking off that ward with nothing was horrendous and having the opportunity to walk off with a hot box would have meant the world. You lose your child and automatically that you feel like you've lost your sense of purpose as a mother and it will help with the pain. You can change the narrative of what your story began by having this to look back on. If they're not ready to have a look then and there which so much

probably won't be, later they get the choice. And also these are precious memories that they're never going to get back, which they don't really consider at the time. And then when the child does get older, you can say that, so you can know that the child was important to you.

You didn't just give the baby up. It was a hard battle and you didn't have a choice. It took me a number of chances and a number of painful experiences to get to a point where I could, you know, be and do the things that I can now do as a mum. Because it's carrying guilt and shame, being your own inner critic along with other people's voices telling you that you're not good enough we're all human you know and we're all one decision away from making a bad choice but knowing that I can use my pain as a way forward to helping influence change so that women can have a hope at the end of all of this is what it's all about. Some of the women there talking about the hope boxes. Claire, the number of newborns in care proceedings

in England and Wales has increased over the past decade. Why is that? Okay, yes, it has. It's more than doubled. And the reasons for that are complex. And we know that many of these families are living in poverty, we know that's increasing. We also know that there's been numerous cuts to services, so cuts to early help,

access to specialist provision, but there are also inherent problems in the system. So we also know that, as I said before, the intervention in pregnancy is coming late. And in a social work system where social workers are absolutely stretched and their workloads are so high, babies often just don't get priority. They fall down, unborn babies fall down the list of priorities because social workers are dealing with live children who have real crisis in the here and now. And so pregnant women may not become their priority. So we think that a specialist focus on the unborn child is really important. There's regional variation as well, because in some areas there aren't alternatives to separation.

So there's unequal access to things like mother and baby foster placements and specialist units claire thank you very much for joining me to talk to me about that um that's uh claire mason there um lots of you getting in touch with uh the kitchen gadgets that you just don't use anymore or do use as one person has told me excuse me i use my milk frother every day exclamation mark i love a kitchen gadget and have a cupboard full the only one which feels neglected is the pasta maker may be used at least twice in 12 years well cost per use that is some expensive pasta you've made yourself there now next week we're going to be talking about two of the most frustrating words in the english language calm down this is after a listener got in touch to say she tried to explain the gender pay gap

to a male colleague at work and was told not to take it personally and to calm down. She wrote into us and said, I'd like to ask listeners, how do they tackle this rebuttal often used by men to silence women who attempt to challenge male dominance

in the workplace? Let's open the floodgates on this one. So have you ever been told to calm down when you felt you were being quite reasonable? How did it make you feel? Do you have any advice for what to do when you're having those difficult conversations about pay gap, about misogyny, and you want to remain assertive but not dismissed? Is it even possible? Please, we want to hear from you. Get in touch. 84844 is the number to text or go to our website and drop us an email. We'll be talking about that in a future programme. On to my next guest.

Actor and playwright Sudha Butcher has made numerous television appearances, including dramatic storylines in both EastEnders and Corrie, and performed on many of London's West End stages. Also a South Asian pioneer in the arts, setting up the Tamasha Theatre Company in the 80s. And she was Usha in The Archers. But now at 60, she looks incredible. She's written a monologue called Evening Conversations, inspired by her continual banter with her dual heritage millennial sons. She questions if her fiercely British offspring see their heritage as a place of strength or an unwelcome inheritance.

And what is her own sense of home and place in the world after a life spanning three continents? I am delighted to say Southa joins me now live in the studio, which is so lovely. Isn't it lovely? Too much to be in the flesh. IRL, eh? Yeah. Why a one woman show? Why now? Well, I mean, to be honest, this is the show that I, it was totally unexpected.

It sort of crept up on me. So it's not as if I said, oh, I'm going to write a one-woman show. I just found that my banter with my kids, you know, I'm a magpie. So I'd have a conversation. I'd be like, oh, that's really good dialogue. Is that where you got IRL from? Yes, exactly. Yeah, and DMC, you know that where you got IRL from? Yes, exactly. And DMC, you know.

We'll come to DMC. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. So I just started writing down fragments. And my older son's name, Summer, means evening conversations. So I've always said to them, oh, one day I'm going to write something called evening conversations. But then it was actually Piyali Rai in Birmingham from Sampad. She invited me just to do an evening

and I didn't know what I was going to do so I just said oh okay just you know call it evening conversations and that's how I started doing it you know in fragments and then I realised oh this is this is something you know so it's been gently developing like that yeah Is there a sense and I certainly felt this when I came to see you on Monday night at the Soho Theatre and thoroughly enjoyed it, that this is about you creating a space to be heard? It's definitely a space. I mean, I even call it like self-care.

It's like it's my show for myself about, you know, I can bring my full self to it. Whereas quite often as an actor, you know, you go up for things and they're always a reduced version of yourself of course I try to bring all depth and nuance to everything I do but with this I just think well this is me you know yeah unadorned you know my full self so that's that's what I feel it's a space for that and when I say a space to be heard as, I mean, as a middle-aged Asian woman actor, because where else do we hear from you? Well, exactly. I mean, obviously, you know, I am an actor and I've had some lovely parts. A middle class. I don't know why I said middle-aged first. I mean, middle class, middle actor. Well, this is the thing. All the M's came, you know, middle class, class middle-aged mother of millennial sons living a squeezed middle life in wimbledon you know

we don't see that and we don't see a kind of what paul gilroy calls that convivial multiculturalism you know so i sort of feel like oh when are we on stage you know when i go up for things i'll be the punjabi mother or i mean what is lovely is is that I'm getting to use my languages, which, you know, 10 years ago would be like, what's the translation? So, you know, at least one is working in a more rounded way. But I just felt like, yeah, my life and my sons are, you know, mixed heritage, Pakistani, Indian. I'm from East Africa. We live in Wimbledon. We family that is you know practicing Muslim Christian so that kind of you know I just felt like it wasn't something you see so yeah I'm smiling because I just think my goodness what what a rich tapestry to be able to to talk about yeah so tell us about your sons come on let's let's talk about them on woman's hour my sons yeah well the millennials who inspired this conversation well my older my older son is Samar, whose name means evening conversations. The younger son is called Sinan.

And you use their language, and it's a brilliant comedic effect throughout the production. Well, I think this is what, I mean, as an actor and as a writer, you know, I'm not somebody who sits in a room and invents stories. I'm always looking for the, you hearing from real life overhearing and I mean they're just so funny and they they sort of you know I we we have banter and that kind of coming up against each other you know talking about identity or feminism or whatever you know when DMCs what are DMCs deep meaningful conversations and how easy is it to engage two millennial boys in DMCs? I think you have to just be waiting for it when it might occur.

If you say to them, put your phone away, like, put your phone away somewhere, you know. Oh, mum, it's what we do, you know, we check our phones. Just because you're afraid of an upgrade, you know. Then you're not going to have a conversation. But if you're just there listening, it'll happen unexpectedly. There's so much in this one hour. You managed to pack it in. But what's really interesting, what stands out,

is how they feel about their heritage compared to you. You mentioned how for you it's India, it's Tanzania, then you moved to Norfolk, and then you moved to South London, you moved to Fulham, and now you're in Wimbledon. But for your sons? For my sons, they were born to South London you moved to Fulham and now you're in Wimbledon but for your sons? For my sons they were they were born in South London you know Kingston Hospital we've lived in Wimbledon they've been to the local school you know so they're very much Wimbledonians you know they were posting you know pictures from the common during lockdown but they are you know they're very proud of their the fact that they are that they just are

but they just accept it you know they't sort of question, like, who are we? Mum, you're the one with the identity crisis. Yeah, you're the immigrant. Isn't that what they call you? Exactly. So it'll be everything. It'll be things like leftovers. I'm eating leftovers from the ever-decreasing Tupperware boxes and they're just like, well, let's just deliver you something. I'm not feeling it today, you know.

So then from that, you start talking about, God, you guys have no idea, you know, we didn't have bottomless Prosecco brunches. It'd be like, well, you weren't expecting to have them, you know. So your expectations of life were so shit. Am I allowed to say that? No, and I apologize for anybody who has been offended by that. I'm so sorry.

It's okay. You've said it and I've apologized. I've said it and I should apologize um you know and also you talk about feminism which really struck me because you talk about how um it you didn't you don't feel like a feminist or you didn't feel I'm becoming a feminist it's not so much that I mean it's more that sort of the definition of a feminist you know um I never was able to go, I am, because you'd look at home, you know, we grew up picking up after our brothers, otherwise mum would have. And so therefore, it's ingrained in you to sort of do for your family. And we don't have that kind of, oh, let's not be patriarchal. Let's differentiate how we are. So I think intersectional thinking is what, you know, kind of made my, it showed you that that's actually what we are. i think intersectional thinking is what you know kind of made my it showed you that that's

actually what what i what we are you know it's not that you're not a feminist but um you weren't able to go on the marches maybe or you know and one thing you you you start talking about but you don't do which i was disappointed about at the end of the play of the was that you don't talk about your amazing career and all the things you've done you talk about bits of it but you've done so much and we had Shonda Rhimes and Betsy Beers at the beginning of the program talking about the importance of inclusive casting you set up Tamasha Theatre in 89 to do exactly that you were a political theatre company that wanted to increase diversity you were ahead of the game. You're a pioneer. Yes, I think this is the thing. I mean, I set up Tamasha with Christine Landon-Smith and,

you know, and before that I came through Tara Arts. We were definitely, I mean, I would say we were inadvertent pioneers because we did things because we had to do them for ourselves, you know, and then in the doing it for yourself, you made landmark work and you brought other people along with you. You know, I would say to my show and us, we've literally changed lives and transformed ourselves. But, you know, that thing that doesn't change. Like even in evening conversations through my new company, Butcher Boulevard, we're self-producing. You know, it's like my phone doesn't ring with people saying, would you like to do a one woman show? No, I do it. And then I say soho theater

hey hello i'm still here you know and it's been great to reconnect with soho theater on this so yeah i'm going to bring in our next guest as well because but we're going to keep you here so that um we'll carry on the conversation to get a three-way chat um but i have to say but another thing shonda rhimes said was if you don't see it, you can't be it. You were definitely somebody who was seen, especially for me, a Punjabi woman with a nose ring on television. It was a pioneer, as I said. Let me bring in our next guest. Chef and food writer Romi Gill has been intrigued by Kashmir since she was a child growing up in Burna Pura, West Bengal. Well, Romi journeyed from Kashmir, the northernmost region of India, to Ladakh,

another beautiful mountainous region in Leh in India, to taste the food and has produced a delicious, beautiful cookbook along the way called On the Himalayan Trail. And Romi joins us now in the studio to talk about it. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's wonderful to have you here. And particularly as you've brought some food in, which I will taste at some point. We'll talk about that in a minute.

I've been obsessed. I brought it up in the intro and I'm still talking about it. You're right. Kashmir is something that has been, I think most people who grew up watching Bollywood, we've all been obsessed with Kashmir from the 70s because it was just there, wasn't it? It was there also. I think my parents are from Punjab. My dad moved to West Bengal, where I grew up, where I was born, to work in a steel plant. So people came from all over India

to work there. It wasn't just one regional cuisine that was in our house. We ate different kind of food and watched films, black and white television. we had a big affair, you know, the wooden kind of thing. Youngsters won't even know what that was. So I think that was so much, I was so intrigued and wanted in, especially when you live in one part of India, you don't really see the snow, you don't see anything else. It's something very different from one part to another. So I think that was really something when I moved up here. And then a suitcase magazine sent me to Ladakh in 2016. That's how I became a writer as well. So I met these people.

And on the back of the mind, I always wanted to kind of write about it. You travelled to Kashmir, which is disputed territory. It's not politically very safe. And you went during a pandemic. You went during lockdown. How difficult was it to travel at that time? So I went during when the lockdown was open. So it was, you could go with work, you could travel. You know, it was, if it wasn't work, you weren't allowed to travel. So I went there, but you had to follow the protocols. The protocols were so much, you had to,

you know, have this job, you had to have this forms there were more things to to follow to Kashmir rather because going to Kashmir is anyway as he said is difficult um so I went on that journey I tell you Anita it was the most I cannot explain I have goosebumps here Indian hospitality is known for its hospitality and the women and the men do but the Kashmiri hospitality was another level. When you went there, they were so welcoming. They opened their doors and they opened their stories to me, shared the food, you know, how what they have had experience. And years and still now, we have so many Bollywood films being made there. So I think it was a journey that, and I met this amazing woman there,

who was doing remarkable things. Tell us about the Kashmiri DJ. Yes, Wafa, her name is Wafa. We'll call her Wafa. And she did, in 2013, she was the first radio jockey that, you know, her parents encouraged her to do it as a Muslim woman, to be on a radio.

It's remarkable. And she did that for many years until now she's open to cafes. She is wonderful. I met her many times in my journey. And she kind of, you know, you go to Kashmir, it's very much male dominating, doing things, you know, whether you are in the music industry or you're cooking or anything. You know, even when I talk about the Wazwan, which is the cuisine, which is all done by the Wazas, which are males. Yes. So, you know, then there is another lady who's opened this beautiful cafe as well.

So the women are doing such remarkable things there. So I think Chai Chai, which is called, is a beautiful cafe there. So the youngsters who can't go to the old city can actually go and experience the whole authentic kind of thing in that Chai Chai. So I want to be there right now. I mean, the most beautiful place I've ever been to in my life is Kashmir. Isn't it just amazing? And I went there at the age of 18 before it, you know, became. And also the women, they are doing remarkable things because when you hear about women that,

oh, they wouldn't be allowed to do, when you meet this and you, you know, there's a guy from Holland who's opened a cheese industry. Yes, it's not just women. This was the most surprising thing in the book. That is Chris who's making gowder in Kashmir. And which where in Kashmir? It's in Belgaum.

So he's taught all these shepherds, he's the Bakarwals to do this different kind of cheeses. Meeting all these people and then foraging. So foraging is huge. So foraging the stuff and teaching them how to make chutneys and different kind of that you'll find

in Europe. So he's teaching that. But Vafava was something I think as a woman of Baba. Tell us about the Wazwan though because this is a specific way of, there's specific chefs that cook, but it's a feast of at least 29 different dishes

that you'll sit and eat. You can have more than 29 dishes. So it's a part of an animal which is used from nose to the tail, but they also have vegetarian dishes in it. So the Wazwan is the feast, like you said. you said so vases are the chef they'll have a head chef and they'll have all different chefs that actually are making one thing so if they're grinding the

meat to make the gustaba or rishta or any kind of meatballs they grind the meat with a pestle and mortar they won't be using a blender and when they saw women um entering a kitchen and seeing what i was doing so they were very surprised they weren't welcoming at all because they were actually shocked that women really don't go in there but they were so wonderful later when they know what i'm doing what i'm doing i want to showcase the food you know when we talk about kashmir it's always come down there is some political situation going on there are things happening so I really wanted to showcase that you can go to Kashmir you can enjoy the food and the culture. You really have showcased it I want to know what it was like being there and thinking about your mum whilst you're out there

because you'd made a promise to take her to Kashmir, didn't you? But sadly, she passed away, so you weren't able to. I know, because, you know, when I was growing up, money was very tight at home. So for my parents, who couldn't speak English, so for them, it was very important for us three children to go to English medium school, very important for that. So I always promised my mum that I will take you there, we'll go there, we'll have a...

You know, we experienced that Bollywood films films and she used to read to us in punjabi because we couldn't read or write punjabi so she used to all all the experiences so i wanted to take her but you know i was grieving at that time and i went to this mosque usually you're not allowed to go to the feminism mosque so i went to this mosque i was allowed to go in the mosque and I found peace there I found that I had to let her go you know I talking about it gives me a bit of emotion but I think I had to let her go there I think it is a thing like I remember my mother always wanted to go back to Lahore yeah where she used to spend childhood you know holidays with her uncle and yeah not able to do you know so I think our parents did have that

absolutely in fact my mum has just come back yesterday from a trip to india but she went to her old school and she said it was like seeing my little self again when she was in punjab watching and she sent these for you well i'll get you a tissue um we're talking because we're talking about mums that's what they do that's exactly what they do and the other thing that's passed down to us through our mothers is the food tradition yes rami can we can we see what you've brought with you because we've got a minute of the program left but i definitely want to get some food in my mouth because you're three punjabi women i thought i'm going to bring punjabi food for you so this is the dal so the proper punjabi tadka dal in a tiff In a tiffin box So will it still be warm?

Yes Roasted smoky aubergine Which is baingan bharta I remember you said your favourite Smell that Baingan bharta Yeah it's her favourite And pindi

Which is okra This is the best day of work ever And this is where I grew up This is like paneer But this is very Hakka style paneer Sweet and sour Oh my goodness That's a whole Opened up, but this is very Hakka style paneer. It's sweet and sour. Oh, my goodness.

That's opened up a whole other conversation about Hakka Chinese food in India, which is right. Should we? I don't know. We don't need a fork. We've got our fingers, haven't we? We're just getting there. Actually, Sudha, if you want to do it, let's try that piece of paneer.

I'm just going to read out. We're just going to enjoy ourselves and eat some delicious food. I'm going to thank you, Sudha. How is that, paneer? Incredible. Yeah, I'm going to thank you. So how is that, Puneer? Incredible. Yeah, I'm going to just carry on talking and end the program before I start stuffing my face. We'll have to get some spoons. Romy, thank you so much. This is a DMC coming on, isn't it?

DMC, yeah, deep and meaningful. We'll continue that. Thank you both for joining me in the studio. And we will continue to have this feast. But I just want to end with some of your messages, someone on kitchen gadgets. I could not live without my food dehydrator. I use it to preserve wild mushrooms from foraging, beef jerky and fruit leather. I've even made my own powdered potato for camping trips.

This is very impressive. That's from Richard in Aberystwyth. Thank you for joining me for Woman's Hour today. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. You are wouldn't. The Witch Farm is the true story of an ordinary couple in an extraordinary, terrifying situation. I don't think I've ever come across a case with this much phenomena. I call her the Grey Lady.

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