Woman's Hour - Anne-Marie Duff, Home education, Willpower Detectives, Iran update

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

Anne-Marie Duff joins Nuala McGovern to talk about her latest stage role in The Little Foxes at London’s Young Vic Theatre. It’s a family drama where she plays Regina Hubbard, an ambitious woman who is thwarted by her position in Alabama society in the early 1900s, where her less financially savvy brothers have the power and autonomy to run the family business. Anne-Marie discusses playing ruthless characters and the stage roles that place women front and centre.New government figures show there's been an increase in the number of children being educated at home - an estimated 111,700 in England. Parents give various reasons including: a lack of support for those with special educational needs, issues with their child's mental health, and many think schools just can't provide for their child. Nuala speaks to a parent who has home educated her five children and Natalie Perera, the CEO of the research organisation the Education Policy Institute.This weekend, the Iranian regime has arrested and released a young female singer for a live-streaming a performance in which she did not wear the mandatory hijab, Parastoo Ahmadi's video has gone viral in Iran. Last week the regime approved new legislation meaning that any person defying or assisting another to defy the morality laws of the country could possibly be sentenced to death. The BBC Correspondent Faranak Amidi explains what this means for women in Iran.Giving someone else control of your finances and decisions – through Lasting Power of Attorney – is meant to come with a guarantee that they always act in your best interest. In her latest series, Willpower Detectives, BBC investigative reporter Sue Mitchell explores a widespread business practice where some people are moved out of their homes and left with no idea what is happening to their money. Sue joins Nuala to explain.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. The actor Anne-Marie Duff will be here in just a few minutes' time on Woman's Hour. We're going to discuss her latest role in the play Little Foxes. It's full of greed and ambition, not least in her character of Regina. We do have a lot to talk about. Also today, an estimated 20% rise in the number of children being home educated in England, according to government statistics. We'll hear why and also the concerns around the figures. But I'd like to know if you are or have home educated, what factored into your decision? How has it worked out so far?

What are the triumphs and the challenges of the experience for you, for your child and also for you? And what about those of you who thought about it but then ultimately decided against it? Why? Or maybe you were home educated yourself. We'd also like to hear from you.

The ways to get in touch. You can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website or for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 03700 100444. We'll talk about it in just a moment.

Also, my BBC colleague, Sue Mitchell, posted on X. Aging shouldn't strip away your choices, deprive you of control over your money and deny you access to those you love. When power of attorney goes wrong, where can you turn to for help? Well, Sue's latest investigation delves into all of that with her new podcast, The Willpower Detectives. She uncovers some shocking stories, a real compelling listening. We'll be speaking to Sue a little later this hour.

And after an outcry, Iran has released the first and only female Iranian singer to perform publicly without a hijab since the 1979 Islamic Revolution. We'll hear more about that too. But let us turn to the new figures from the government that show that

there has been an increase in the number of children being educated at home. It's estimated that over 111,000 children are homeschooled in England. So that is an increase of 20% since last year. There's lots of reasons that parents give for taking their children out of school. It includes a lack of support for those with special educational needs. We've often reported on that on this programme. Also a lack of school places, religious or lifestyle reasons, child mental health issues. There's also

philosophical reasons. Some parents who think homeschooling provides a more rounded education. Well, I'll be speaking to a parent who home educated her five children, that's Manda King. But first I want to bring in Natalie Pereira, who's CEO of the research organisation, the Education Policy Institute, who's also looking at these figures closely. Good to have you with us, Natalie.

Every parent is different. I laid out some of the reasons there. But why do you think there's such an increase in educating at home? Good morning, Nawala. We, as you say, we have seen an increase and our own figures that we generated a couple of weeks ago are very close to what the government published last week. We're seeing an increase mostly post-pandemic, but also a bit before the pandemic as well. So this does seem to be a kind of medium-term running trend. As you say, it's likely that many of the increases are due to a lack of suitable places and provision for children

with special educational needs and disabilities, we know that system is creaking under pressure. But if you look at the data from the Department for Education, there are a number of families who are also choosing it for philosophical reasons too. Yeah, so let's define those. What would a philosophical reason be? Well, it could be that they want to teach their own curriculum, that they have religious practices they want to incorporate.

And the problem, Nawala, is that we don't really know a couple of weeks ago calls for greater transparency over data and knowing when children are being educated at home. So let's talk about that because the figures I was mentioning there the 20% increase that is an estimate it's coming from the census? So very recently the Department for Education started collecting data from local authorities on the records they hold but it's not yet compulsory for there to be a kind of national register of home-educated children. That's something that the Conservative government had planned to do, but their legislation fell apart. The Labour Party have committed to doing it in their forthcoming bill. And it's something that many organisations like mine hugely support. Right. So we don't have a total grip on the figures, would you say?

Not yet. These are very much our best estimates. I was working it out that with these figures of the increase, talking about England only, that it's still about less than 1.38% of the children that are educated in England. But let's get into about the process. If a child is to be home educated, do you need to tell the school?

What's the exact process? I think it can vary. So if they're home educated from the start, then I think local authority, I think there is an obligation on parents to tell their local authority, but not a statutory duty yet. If a child is withdrawn from school, at the moment the school isn't required to record the reason why. And that's one of the things that we've recommended should become a requirement because what we've seen is there's been around 400,000 children that are missing from education

some of which are home educated but some of which we've got no idea where they went or what happened to them. So there also needs to be a requirement on schools to say why a child has been taken off their register. And of course, we've been following the dreadful murder of Sarah Sharif. She was taken out of school four months before she died. And questions raised about safeguarding issues for her, you raise as well. I think that safeguarding issues that you're raising as well in your last comments. Yeah, there's safeguarding reasons. And it's important that tragic cases like Sarah are very few and far between. But it's critical that we don't let vulnerable children fall through the net.

And a national register of children who are home educated is an important safeguard. But it's also important that children, when they are home educated, are having access to high quality education. They have a right to education. And so it's important we know they're getting that let me bring in one of the parents who decided to home educate manda you home educated all five of your children they're between 8 and 22 i understand and what was your thought process in deciding to do that um We, I knew some people, the first person I met at uni was home educated and I really admired their character.

When we moved here and I realised that a child went to school at age four full time, I thought that that was way too early. We have summer born boys or spring born boys and we're also Christians. So all of those different things played a part. Let's talk about some of those with the spring born, summer born babies as well. I can understand thinking that it's too early perhaps for them to go to school? Did you ever think do it for the first couple of years and then let them enter a mainstream education? It depended on a lot of different things.

We were open to considering if we thought that it would be. I had done preschool, pre-kindergarten teaching and worked at an all-day daycare. And that did not convince me that people other than a parent would know a child as well. And actually, all of our children love home education. Did you teach them yourself or was it somebody else who came in? Oh, no, we haven't had any tutors but it's not it's not the same as teaching at school so it's a I facilitate them in their learning um so so give me an idea and I know

your youngest is eight so you're still in the thick of it um what might that look like is it up in the morning at a certain time? We do tend to get up at a particular time. And they have a couple of different things that they, we work out what they'll do each day. So they have a couple of different workbooks, but a lot of it is spent on things that they've asked questions about, things that they're interested in. My youngest is very interested in architecture. So he looks at a lot of different things about architecture and explores different things about that, for example. And that, I think, maybe is coming into the character aspect of it, perhaps. I don't know, leaning to the things that they're interested in the character thing is partly also because you have time as a parent to talk with them about

how they're feeling what's going on and what their motivations are for the things that they do so um and to make sure that they can understand why it is that they might have reacted in a particular way or what is behind, you know, when they go and do something to a sibling, for example. And we have the opportunity to do that. And at school, they don't. A couple of things as well. It must be a huge lift for you. You enjoy it, it seems, from what I'm hearing from you.

But what about the challenges? Oh, well, no, it's really hard. It is a full-time commitment. And when they were younger, it was all that much harder. I have very strong-willed and determined children um but as they've gone gotten older the friendships that i have with them are amazing and the people that they are turning out to be are wonderful and you mentioned friendships there but what about their friendships with little people you know with uh you know when they're little children, socialising, all those skills. Oh, they're quite, they have a broad range of friendships. And it's not just stuck in their peer group. So they do have friends that are their ages and they have friends who are much older and they have friends who are much younger. And the only place that you're stuck with your peer group is in school.

I'm sure that you don't have everyone else your own age within the radio studio. And home education far more reflects a reality than being in a school situation where you have only people with your life experience to turn to other than the teacher or the TA. Three of your children have taken GCSEs, I understand. And I'll come back to Natalie in just a moment about literacy and numeracy for other children. There is no legal requirement to take GCSEs, but you decided to go that route. How did they get on? Well, it was actually our children who decided.

We gave them a range of options. Well, my sons have gotten eights and nines. My daughters had eights and sevens. She got a five in her maths and since she was expecting that she'd have to redo it and she doesn't have a maths brain she was really proud of herself because if it had been the year before she would have gotten a six so um so yes they and they've chosen the subjects that they have wanted to study for GCSE as well. And so going forward, your eldest, of course, being 22, any particular path that they are following?

He is interested in studying criminal law. At the moment, he's working for the post office. So as you can imagine, he's very busy. And he is very good at it. So we come across people all the time who have dealt with him and have been very impressed with his service and his knowledge. A couple of comments coming in. I was home educated. I feel it's impacted my entire life in a negative way. That's one. But another, hi, Women's Hour. I homeschooled my kids after they were diagnosed with autism asperger's at the time because they couldn't cope with the school environment a different situation there of course amanda's talking about hers with her five children

let me bring you back in uh natalie um we talked about literacy numeracy there is no specific bar is there for home educated children that they need to reach? No, I don't think there are a set of statutory standards for home educated children. And I mean, kudos to Manda for doing it with all her five children. I certainly couldn't replicate the quality of teaching and learning that my son received, particularly in subjects like maths, which requires an expert level of knowledge. But no, there aren't minimum requirements at the moment. The Department for Education, coming back to the issue of a register that you raised,

Natalie. So no child falls through the cracks we've already confirmed plans to introduce statutory children not in school registers in our children's well-being bill which will help ensure every child not in school is identified and that those who are not safe or not in suitable education can be supported does that reassure you it does and we want to see that legislation passed as soon as possible, as we've discussed for safeguarding reasons, but also for quality of education reasons too, which I think are very important.

What do you think, Manda, about the idea of a home education register? I think it's a terrible idea i think that it's um well for one thing i think that the child is safest actually within the family um i know of i know of so many experiences of bullying and of abuse at schools um when i did some teaching i saw it myself and i understand issues you might have with the school but i'm more curious about why and of course we know some children are not safe in their families as well as we were speaking about earlier but what what is your objection to a register because of the fact that uh i think that education and learning is an organic process.

And once you have a register first, what they're planning to do with the register, I think, is quite dangerous. It collates a whole bunch of information about private lives. And the information they want is a lot more than just things that they can easily get if they were to collate things to do already with ages, because they send letters into families when it's time for them to send them to school. They don't really need a register, but also it means once you have that, then you have these certain statistics that you have to follow. For example, my fourth child didn't learn how to read until he was nine. And I went to a very, personally, I went to a very good private primary school. But I, for various different reasons, didn't learn how to read until I was eight.

And my nine-year-old, very, very bright lad. In fact, I think that was part of the problem. He couldn't accept being wrong. And within a month of him learning how to read, he was reading 200 page plus books. So if he was at school, he would have been labelled in some way. And I think, you know, and whereas my eldest, he learned how to read when he was three. So I understand, so you don't want the, I think, I'm putting words in your mouth, but maybe you can tell me whether you agree with this or not, but the intrusion of government within your system.

Well, I think, yes, I don't think whenever government intrudes in personal family life, I think it's quite unhelpful. And Sarah Sharif was not home educated. Well, this is the issue. I think people trying to figure out of who is actually being home educated and who is not. And there's a number,

thousands of children that are not accounted for. And I suppose they're talking about the intersection of some of that. Thanks for speaking to us, Amanda. Really interesting. And also we have been hearing also from Natalie, who is Natalie Pereira, the CEO of the research organisation, the Policy Institute, which is an independent research organisation.

I also want to read from the Department for Education spokesperson who said in the vast majority of cases children can achieve and thrive best in schools but we support parents right to home educate when the education is suitable and it is in the child's best interest. We're talking about this because of a 20% increase in the estimated figures from the government that came out the other day on children being home educated. Lots of you getting in touch. Let me see. I home educated my child from year two to eight. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. But the only option given the terrible experience we had in his small village primary school. I adopted my son at three and he has autism and early life trauma. Keep them coming. 84844. We should continue to read them. But I want to turn to my next guest.

Radiant, indomitable, superb. Just a few of the words that have been used to describe her in recent reviews for her latest role. She is, of course, Anne-Marie Duff, who's at the Young Vic in London in The Little Foxes. We'll get to speak more about her character, Regina, in just a moment. But of course, you may currently be watching Bad Sisters and I'm going to try no spoilers.

Anne-Marie plays Grace, who is controlled by her abusive husband. That's a performance that won her a BAFTA. Or maybe you've been a fan of Anne-Marie since we got to know her as Fiona in Shameless. Yes, that was two decades ago for anybody who's counting. Or the Salisbury Poisoners or Suffragette. Many other roles on stage and scream. Anne-Marie, you're so welcome.

Thank you for having me. And you know, I get recognised more still for Shameless than anything. Isn't that something? I'm clinging on to the notion that I look the same. What was it about Fiona in Shameless that captured the imagination? Maybe you could tell people just a line on who she was. So Shameless was about this uh bonkers family but we all lived in an estate in Manchester and um it was a sort of dramedy if you like written by Paul Abbott and he used to create these

extraordinary female characters so although she was this young working class girl she was also a sort of mother figure and a bit wild, but at the same time holding everyone together. So she had lots of different energies. So I think that's partly it too, you know. Well, you know, there's many more roles I have to say that people must be stopping you in the street for as well.

But I want to start specifically with The Little Foxes. I went to see it last Monday. I loved it. This is a play from 1939 written by Lillian Hellman, which I thought was so interesting as well, having a female writer at that time.

Yeah, and I don't think there's been a production of this play in London for about 20 years. It's a massive classic in America. So it's performed quite regularly in America, but not so much here. Brings us to the southern states and shall we say a kind of a, could have even been seen as an original script for Succession.

Right, this family's desire for wealth and influence and this power struggle between siblings. But let us talk about Regina Hubbard, this ambitious woman that's at the centre of this family. I mean, we love her, we hate her while we're watching her. How do you feel about her? How did you decide to play her? Well, that was the quest for the kingdom for me, really. sell the notion of this woman who was completely thwarted and therefore driven to all sorts of unhealthy behavior so she has two brothers that are trying to basically do a power and money grab

that's why it's very successioning it's about this family and you know it's it was written in the 30s but actually set 1890 so not terribly long after the American Civil War and the abolition of slavery. So you have this whole swathe of people who are desperately trying to cling on to the wealth because they've lost their main source of income. And, you know, so that by fair means or foul, they need to hang on to their power and resources. And so they're behaving despicably. And so what happens is that you get panic and fear and everybody standing on each other to try and achieve what they want. And inside of that, then you have the gender politics of, you know, a woman being used and cheated and then having to try and come back from that. And the only way that she can do that

is a pretty desperate way. And so that's kind of what the play is about, really, I guess. You know, I read in a previous interview that a role you would like to play, a male role you'd like to play, was Frank Underwood from House of Cards. Yeah. And I was thinking, maybe this is kind of her.

It is very, that's the energy, isn't it? You know, and also with any badly behaved character, we have to love them. We have to egg them on. And that's, you know, that's the challenge, isn't it? Because you want them to win. It's a very strange thing, but an audience is sitting loving Richard III

for most of the play you know and so that's what you have to try and sort of weirdly charm them into being on your side but because it's Lillian Hellman because she's a feminist writer she does present the barriers very quickly inside the world of the play. I also feel you're kind of flipping between seeing the brothers as total, you know, business rivals, adversaries that you have to come up against. But then it'll slip back into that family dynamic. Oh, it's my brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also you can tell this is a family riddled with trauma. And we understand that so much. We look for that and we go, oh, what on earth happened to you at five years old in order for you to behave that way and I think that's wouldn't have been the

audience's response in the 30s yes because we're so much more engaged with that conversation now so it's very interesting and you can see the weird boundarylessness behavior of the brothers and sisters you know and also we briefly spoke just before we came on air, that it is cinematic. Like, I do feel like I'm watching this movie from southern states of America, Alabama to be specific.

How are you able to do that? I think it's the writing, it's the quality of the dialogue. Also, the set design is spectacularly cinematic. The way we've set up the young Vic, because you can move the young Vic around, which is brilliant. And Lindsay Turner is amazing, amazing director. She, I think she just had that sense of a panorama, you know, this beautiful widescreen version of theatre.

Yes, and my eyes are kind of moving back and forth across the stage. Because you've also said that there's not enough female Machiavellis. Tell me a little bit more about this. So we have the role of Regina, but do you still feel that way about roles in general? I just think we want more of everything inside female roles, don't we?

We're all swollen with every season. You know, there's nobody who's just one thing. And quite often, not always, but quite often, a female character can be there to represent a certain energy or a certain character quality. Sharon Horgan went completely against that in Bad Sisters and created all these women who are full of everything, which is very tasty.

But, yeah, quite often you're there to serve some sort of piece of a jigsaw rather than being an integral part of the momentum of a story. And to keep, for the audience member, to keep changing their minds about the character. You know, nobody wants to, you know, how boring is it to play an action hero? Because you get to do one thing for two hours.

Who wants that? You know, all actors is it to play an action hero? Because you get to do one thing for two hours. Who wants that? You know, all actors want to have a bite of every flavour. Yeah, and you're constantly guessing, I feel, with Regina. But you bring up Bad Sisters. For anybody who hasn't watched it, why haven't you watched it? Amory plays Grace. It's a black comedy. These five sisters, the Garvey sisters.

And there's sibling rivalry there, I guess, as well. Is there something about family dynamics that particularly attracts you? I just think they make for great stories, whether it's King Lear or Bad Sisters, you know, because families are an enforced... What was he saying? Network.

Network, yes. Yeah, enforced chemical reaction. Yes. And so, and also it's that you have no choice but to deal with each other. And so, you know. Or become estranged. Or walk away. And that's the gamble, isn't it?

And that's the sacrifice. But there's still this magnetic draw. And, yeah, I just think think that very often make for great. And Americans write, especially for theatre, in a very specific way around family. You'd think of Arthur Miller, Eugene O'Neill. You know, there's a real energy of putting the epic ideas into a living room.

They love doing that in theatre. So it's very, very interesting, you know, that they are concerned with that. Yeah, I think perhaps they talk about family in a different way. Perhaps they do. I mean, you and I are Celtic family. Exactly, we are. We like to claim I'm pretty tough as Irish.

I know you were born here. So we have clan family, you know, which is, again, something else entirely. But I do think there's just something about it. Everyone talks about Christmas in that way you know yes and I'm coming back to bad sisters I'm thinking about the four sisters that kind of rally around grace because she's in this controlling relationship with the husband that there's no love lost between him and the rest of the sisters and they kind of try to protect her. But it is a very beautiful representation that you create of grace, of this woman and what she's going through. And I'm thinking people must come up to you about grace as well now. Yeah, lots of people talk to me about coercion.

And also the idea of it being displayed in a very middle-class, very nice lifestyle version. I think quite often the iconography around abuse can be sort of very specific. And, oh, it's alcohol-fuelled or it's to do with a lack of resources or it's to do... And, you know, it's not. It lives in every corner of every version of a living room,

speaking of living rooms. And so, yeah, I've had lots of conversations with people who have been surprised or said, God, that smelled very familiar to me. And also I've had people reach out to me talking about their mother's story. So, yeah, I mean, it's inevitable. If you try and tell stories about something important, you will, your tentacles, you know, they touch people. It's because at times it's just very subtle. And I think I get that back and forth as well. Like we mentioned with Regina, if I'm like, what am I seeing here? What is the exact situation? Different people's interpretation of exactly what's happening and trying to get to the truth of the matter. And what people regard as somebody's responsibility or not. And that's very interesting. I know there'll be women listening right now who people will have not

been very forgiving of for being inside of domestic abuse, sadly. And I found myself having conversations with people who go, oh God, Grace was so annoying. annoying i just wanted to get a spine because they didn't understand you know what it's like the right the water torture of coercion and how you're worn away and how you're just left as a sort of ghost version of yourself and it's very easy to judge and so that was that was intriguing yeah and also what i mean, what would Grace be without her sisters? Like what would have happened? I'm just talking about season one at this stage. Without those sisters that are around, that are prepared to support a really thick and thin.

Going back to the Little Foxes. Yeah. I was thinking, you've made comments on toxic masculinity before. And I was thinking about the two brothers, you know, Ben and Oscar. And they would be, I think many people might characterize that as toxic masculinity on display. But you're not crazy about the phrase. Do you want to tell me why? Just I think masculinity is a describing noun.

It would be a bit like saying, you know, oh, wimpy, pathetic femininity. And therefore, what do we say? All femininity is that. All masculinity is toxic. I have a son. Yes. And so I think masculinity can be a beautiful, glorious thing. So I don't want anything sticky added to it. There's toxic behavior inside certain versions of masculinity. Absolutely. I've been in the room with it a million times. But I just think we have to be so careful because we're trying to raise a generation of male citizens who are good to each other and good to us. And, you know, I think we just have to be wary of them carrying the burden of other people's nastiness. And I see it and I hear it in them.

And, you know, we forget. We just forget how plastic young people are. And it's really important that we just, I just think there's a sort of disregard around the mental health and mental well-being of young people. You know, everybody's very keen to hang on to whatever they need from the internet or whatever they need from social media whilst not thinking about young people

and what the effects it's having on them. That's just one example. So I just feel like rhetoric around young people, their little aerials are always up and listening. So I think having a boy has really opened my eyes to all of that yes indeed and I think there's these conversations exactly and we've had full hours of call-ins as well listen to them yeah about you know about being a young boy in the environment that it is now and how that is or what they need yeah and how there are people ready to jump in and say, all those people

calling you names. You know, it's not helpful, I don't think. So I will think about that when I hear the term a toxic masculinity again. I'm coming back to family. You mentioned your son there. I also want to mention your brother. This is your brother, Eddie, who was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's. I can't imagine what that was like, particularly getting back into that family dynamic. How is he doing? How are you doing? Well, you know, it's the journey. We're at a point now where he's going to need much more care. So we're applying for that.

So we're going through that difficult process and my heart goes out to anybody who's going through just the admin and the logistics of all of that and yeah he was so I'd say he's been living with it for the about 14 years and he's only a couple years older than me so that tells you how young he was and he had his diagnosis about eight or nine years ago um so yeah it's it's very very difficult because you are watching somebody slowly vanish before your eyes but the love doesn't vanish and that's i'd say that is one of the gifts of all of it is that the love is so present in the room there's an unspoken version of your relationship that exists in another, it's almost like in a completely other element. It's so beautiful, you know, so he doesn't know who I am,

but he knows that I love him, which is very interesting. But I know the effect it has on a family, you know. Did you, and if you're not comfortable answering this, of course don't, did you and Eddie speak're not comfortable answering this of course don't uh did you and eddie speak about what would happen well it was he was as a lot of people would be in an awful lot of denial around the diagnosis it was almost as if by the time we got to the diagnosis he already had one foot in right the puddle of what it was about to be. I think because it was so early onset, there were so many other assumptions around it,

that he was, what was he doing? Is he taking drugs? Is he drinking? Is he this? Is he that? Couldn't hold down a job, couldn't pay his rent, you know, all of those things. So we had a very specific journey. But I tried to talk to him about it, but there was a lot of, no, no, no, when I get to the other side of this, and that was the most heartbreaking thing because there is no other side.

At the moment, there is no other side. I suppose the human spirit just always wants to think that things will get better. No, believe me, yeah, this isn't me, you know. But, I mean, the Alzheimer's Society and all those organisations are phenomenal. And again, I always bang my drum and say, if you're going through anything, if you're a carer or even someone who's living with Alzheimer's,

please call them with any questions or worries or even just to talk. They are incredible, you know. And you have become a voice now for speaking out and for raising awareness about it. Yeah, absolutely. Because it seems like we're all one degree away from some, you know, we all have someone in our lives, don't we,

who's living with some version of dementia. Thank you so much for coming in. It was my pleasure. I love Woman's Hour. We love you. Where would we be without Woman's Hour, eh girls? I didn't bear to say that I swear.

You're running until, thank you so much for coming in as well early morning. You do have the show tonight. The Little Foxes is running until the 8th of February. A story of greed, ambition and a family on the edge. Well thank you for coming and speaking about family dynamics with us and Marie-Marie Duff.

And of course, if you have been affected by any of the issues that we're speaking about there, particularly on domestic abuse, we do have the BBC Action Line where you will find links to help and support. Thank you for your messages that are coming in. Here's one. I briefly took my son out of school

when he was between the nursery and reception class. It was a long time ago. He's now 40. I can't remember the precise reason. I do remember how happy he was and he created a book of dinosaurs, completely his own idea. It opened my eyes to the fact that education

doesn't have to be imposed with discipline and threats of punishment. I really wanted to home educate him, but my husband was against it and kept insisting he should be in school. I felt it would be impossible without his support. And so he went back to school. I might add that nobody noticed that he had dropped out or asked any questions.

That one coming in from Julie. Thank you for that. Here's Louise in Glasgow. As an ex-head teacher, the comment of homeschooling mum who said if her child could not read by eight or nine he would have been labeled this is a complete myth lots of children of all ability all abilities struggle to read by that age for all sorts of reasons and the vast majority of primary schools provide nurturing caring environments that support children to learn at their own pace without any labeling many more coming in 84844 if you would like to get in touch, we're talking about home education, the numbers that have increased, as we heard from government figures out last

Thursday. Now, this weekend, the Iranian regime has arrested and released a young female singer for live streaming a performance in which she did not wear the mandatory hijab. She also had her shoulders uncovered. Parastu, Ahmadi's video, has gone viral in Iran. It was just last week that the regime approved new legislation, meaning that any person defying or assisting another to defy the morality laws of the country could possibly be sentenced to death. Let us speak with the BBC's Farinak Amidi, who is covering these issues in depth. Good to have you back with us, Farinak. Tell us first about this woman, Parastu, if I'm pronouncing her name correctly.

Yes, so Parastu Ahmadie, she's 27 years old. She studied film directing at a university in Iran. And she's had previously some recorded, studio recorded work, which is still also underground in Iran because women in general are banned from of the women who were protesting at that time and the protesters and the uprising of that time on her social media account. So when she did this, it really just blew the mind of many people because we hadn't seen something recorded, a performance recorded in such high quality and performed in such high quality for the purpose of being published publicly because women in Iran have been fighting for the fight for the right to sing for the past 45 years because they were banned from singing in public and after the 1979 revolution. And was there any reason given for that of why a woman would not sing solo? It is to be honest when honest, when I want to talk about it,

I find it really ridiculous, the reasons, because they say it can be sexually provoking. So a woman is not supposed to be sexually provoking or asking for any kind of sexual attention. You need to be modest or kind of like, basically, you need to be invisible in order for the society to be a decent society. So the burden of the decency of the society based on this ideology is on the shoulders of women. And anything that might be sexually provoking should be banned. So this comes at a very particular time. I mentioned that there was legislation with the potential to be sentenced to death, for example, for defying morality laws. But also, of course, as we know about the fall of Assad in Syria and some people feeling could that weaken Iran in any particular way. Do you see the

issues related? There is a lot of talk about this and it could be related of course because this is a huge blow to the Islamic Republic, the fall of Assad and of, they feel weakened in the region. So yesterday, we read the news that the enforcement of this new hijab and chastity law has been cancelled again. But we also, because it's been, there has been back and forth news that they're cancelling it, they're delaying it, then they come and say, no, we are not delaying it, we are enforcing it. But yesterday, they say they are not enforcing it yet. They are going to make some changes to the law, because there has been a gap within the system and the regime between the so-called reformists and the more, how do you call it, fundamentalists around this law and this legislation. So we are seeing that. And of course, you know, but I also read somewhere, it's unconfirmed,

but I read some reports that this legislation is being enforced in some cities as a test drive, like the city of Esfahan, where I'm from. Interesting. When it comes back to Parastu, the singer, why do you think she was released so quickly when doing something that was considered so controversial, when there are others that did not wear the hijab, for example, that are still imprisoned? She's been released for now, but that doesn't mean that she will not be punished or she will not be summoned back. So it's not that she's free yet. They have opened a criminal case against her.

And to be honest, with these cases, when they become so high profile, usually the authorities take their time, but they will make an example of them because they don't want this to become something that is repeated all the time. We have seen that this ban on women's singing has because it has made it very difficult for other musicians, other investors who invest on women's talents because it will have consequences for them. And in this performance, we saw these men who were musicians and other artists perform with her, with their identities out there. And this is really unheard of because we usually have women performing in Iran in underground performances. We have seen videos of them being leaked. But everything is just very underground and people don't want their identities to be revealed. So with this, this is an investment in a woman's talent

that we have not seen before. This is the first time we have seen Iranian male artists coming out, standing behind a woman and putting an investment on a high quality production to be put out. And I don't really think that the authorities in Iran would like to see this repeated, because then that will change the whole equation. And women will become performers. And that is something that they don't want to see.

I understand the BBC's Farnak Amidi, thank you very much, giving us some context to that story. You might have seen the headline this morning in your papers about Parish to being released messages continue to come in on home education my parents are both teachers and could have homeschooled us but understood the value of the social and emotional learning that you get in school even when they're not perfect I and two siblings were removed from school and homeschooled a decision made by a controlling violent coercive coercive father. My mother was a primary school teacher, an able scholar and did her best. It extended isolation, misery and abuse. What was

concerning is that social services seemed unable to support anyone except the abuser. More of your comments coming in, 84844. But I need to turn to my colleague Sue Mitchell because giving someone else control

of your finances and decisions through lasting power of attorney or LPA is meant to come with a guarantee that they will always act in your best interest. In our latest series, Willpower Detectives, BBC investigative reporter Sue Mitchell explores a widespread business practice where some people are moved out of their homes

and left with no idea of what is happening to their money. It often involves people with few or no family to ask questions about where they're being moved to or to challenge the fees involved. It can be people who've accumulated wealth over a lifetime whose assets are now paying the fees to fund those who are taking decisions for them. And there has been a huge rise in lasting power of attorneys in England and Wales in recent years. In 2023, more than 1 million people registered. So that is a rise of 37% on the year before. Sue is with me now in the Woman's Hour studio. Welcome back. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

What led you to investigate this? So I made a programme about a year ago with a woman who was trying to find her father. He'd met someone new after his own wife had died and he signed power of attorney forms, giving this new woman control over his finances and health and welfare. His daughter and family were effectively cut out of his life and he was placed in a care home. And I came on Women's Hour to talk about it. So I echo Anne-Marie's sentiment. We love Women's Hour. We had so many calls afterwards.

I mean, literally, we had so many people get in touch with us saying that they'd got great concerns about power of attorney. Some had had bad experiences. And I noticed one particular name kept coming up. So this is a partner in a law firm in Essex. He's got lots of clients in the southeast of England. And I went to see two people who were worried about a neighbour of theirs, Carol. She's in her mid-60s and she lived alone. They were really kind neighbours to Carol and they used to keep an eye on her house and her and help her out with her shopping. She had a fall at home. She went to hospital and she just never returned. A few weeks later, they sort of looked out their windows to see her home being cleared and put up for sale.

They tried to reach Carol at the care home she'd moved into, but they hadn't heard anything back. Part of the problem was, as they're not next of kin, they couldn't have access. So I managed with their help to track down Carol's cousin, who was also really worried about her. Together, we went to visit Carol and we had no real idea what to expect. As you're about to hear, Carol hadn't really had any visitors for such a long time. And she was really just overwhelmed when we got there. Hello, come to see Carol. Oh, OK.

Surprise visit. Hello. Hello. He's up this way. I can't see you. Open the door. Shock. That's all right. Oh, it's just a shock.

Oh, bless you. Oh, bless you. Carol tells us she desperately wants to leave the Wesley Care home. She seems mentally sharp, sharp enough to whisper, because she doesn't want the staff to hear what she's saying to us. We move out into the garden for more privacy. And it's trying to work out what to do. And this place is driving me mad.

Well, it's the residents they've got in there. Well, you're so young. And the thing is, a lot of them have got dementia. Yeah. And, you know, you just feel totally alienated. So that's Carol. What happened in her case, Sue? What else did you find?

Yeah, it was so sad to see her there in that home with all her agency stripped from her. I became quite determined really to help and to try and get to the bottom of what had happened. So it was at the care home where Carol was introduced to Ron Hiller, and it was him that she gave her power of attorney to for her finances. He's a partner at Crabeck Law, and I ended up investigating around 30 cases with the same firm. So Ron Hiller holds scores of powers of attorney, often for older and vulnerable people. I found a pattern in the cases I looked at where clients

complained of having no access to bank accounts, no paperwork to show how their money was being spent. The homes were sometimes cleared or sold in ways they say they hadn't consented to. And in another example where he held power of attorney, he drew up a will, power of attorney Andrew drew up a will for a man with learning difficulties who couldn't read or write and says he didn't understand what he was signing. So power of attorneys are meant to be there to protect people. They have to be granted before someone loses mental capacity

so they have to understand what they're doing and signing. In Carol's case, she'd gone to the care home to get back on her feet after the stay in hospital. It was meant to be temporary, but she signed her finances over to Ron Hiller, and he arranged to sell her home. Carol didn't know how to get her independence back, so when we found her, she had no bank cards, no ID documents, no idea what money she had or how much she was paying to Ron Hiller. She'd lost contact with her neighbours and cousin Sandy because Crabeck Law had given her a mobile

phone with just their numbers on it. And this is the moment Carol and Sandy called up Ron Hiller during our visit. And I should point out he's a partner at Crabeck Law. He's not a qualified solicitor. She doesn't seem to have any accounts of her money and where she stands at the moment financially um we've got full records of what she's got yeah financially and her money and what are your fees our fees yeah solicitors can either charge by the hour and by the minute yeah and my fees are £300 an hour. Yeah. For people who've lost capacity, we try and charge the fixed fees because they're a lot cheaper.

Yeah. Carol hasn't lost capacity, has she? Yeah. Okay. So, we were talking about, apparently, you've got power of attorney at the moment. To change that to me? Can't change it. What would happen is I would have to resign and you would have to apply. Okay. Well, we obviously want to do that then. What you need to be aware of, though, is I'm Carol's financial attorney. Yeah. So I have control of her finances. Yeah. Not her welfare. Well, as it turned out, that wasn't actually true.

So there are two types of power of attorney, property and finance or health and welfare. When we checked with the register of them, the Office of the Public Guardian, Ron Hiller did in fact hold both types for Carol. She's now in the process of revoking them. She's got access back to her bank accounts, which had been registered at his home address.

She's discovered he's made a series of cash withdrawals from supermarkets near his office. He'd been charging her more than that fixed fee you just heard him mention there. In the series we follow up what happens to Carol as she plans to move out of the care home and into a little flat of her own. She's starting again really because she has few possessions after her house was cleared. She didn't have any of her important documents or proof of ID, but she has managed to set up on her own again. Which is great news. But is this a big problem? Briefly, Sue? I mean, it's compelling and horrifying to listen to. I mean, all powers of attorney application have to be registered with the Office of the Public Guardian in England and Wales. It has about 8 million registered at the moment.

That's a huge increase in recent years with moves to make it simpler for an ageing population. But it isn't set up to spot patterns where attorneys take on scores of cases like this. And it only really investigates individual complaints. So MPs are considering a bill to change this because so many of them have been asked to help with cases where power of attorney have been misused. I put everything I found to Ron Hiller and Craibet Law. He didn't want to be interviewed. Craibet Law said it's governed by the Solicitor's Regulation Authority rules and principles. The firm upholds strict conduct and ethical guidelines. It said it couldn't respond to claims about specific clients due to

client confidentiality, but said that the allegations were inaccurate and based on hearsay. Thank you very much, Sue. I also want to bring in Anne Stanier, who also appears in the series. You're the author of Power of Attorney User Guide and a partner at the law firm Wedlake Bell. Good to have you with us, Anne. I mean, what is a lasting power of attorney? How would you describe it? And why do you think people are signing them? Well, good morning, Noella. Lasting power of attorney is a document you sign giving another person or persons decision making powers of your money or health. And today these are called lasting powers of attorney because they last through your mental incapacity. What is your response to the story?

We've just heard a snippet of it. I've heard I've listened to quite a few episodes now. And each case, I mean, to make your hair stand on end. Yes. Yeah. No, no, absolutely. What I would say, it doesn't pass what we would call the smell test. There are concerns there that need to be answered. What I would always say that if you've got capacity, you can change that power of attorney. You can revoke it and appoint somebody else you trust. I always say to clients, make sure whoever

you're appointing, you know how they manage their finances. And if they're a professional attorney, check out their professional skills and experience. I'm a member of the Association of Lifetime Lawyers and the Society of Trust and Estate Practitioners. We are all qualified to deal with powers of attorney. I want to get into two things, and we've just got a couple of minutes. One, where should the accountability lie for situations like the ones we've outlined so far? Well, the accountability is with the attorney to act in the best interests of the donor.

And if they do not, then their regulatory body, the SRA or the OPG, the Office of the Public Guardian, should step in and investigate this. And because my other question would be, of course, for people who perhaps have concerns about a family member or a friend or neighbour. had no deep relationship with somebody that they were afraid was being duped or taken advantage of in some way that stepped in and then helped Sue with her investigations. But what should somebody do if they have concerns about somebody? If they have concerns, firstly, if they feel a criminal offence has taken place, they need to pick up the phone to the police. If it's to do with how the attorney has been acting, pick up the phone to the OPG, the Office of the Public Guardian's

Investigation Unit, and give them all the facts. And if you've got paperwork, even better. And you feel then that there can perhaps be a process that is started. I want to thank both of you. Fascinating listen. Sue Mitchells is on at the moment. The series

is The Willpower Detectives. It's on BBC Sounds. I also want to thank Anne Stanier for giving us some advice and some of the details, of course, behind this as well. I want to let you know tomorrow I'm speaking to Sophie Duker,

the comedian, about her new show, But Daddy, I Love Her. That is coming up. Also, your comments continue to come in. Education is so much more than knowing the square root of seven or reciting the periodic table. I think as long as the parent is well-rounded and sensible,

home education can be really positive. I struggle so much with education, being diagnosed with dyslexia when I was 18. I now have a son who is 10 months old and it does make me question the route for his future schooling. Love the show. Great, Faye. Thanks for getting in touch.

I'll see you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Sean Diddy Combs has occupied a top spot in the music industry for decades. He earned his stripes during the golden age of hip hop, and he's been called rap royalty. Now, Diddy sat in jail awaiting trial. He denies all the allegations. I'm Anushka Matanda-Dowdy and from BBC Sounds, this is Diddy on Trial. Every week, I'll be examining the latest allegations, interrogating the rumours and answering your questions.

Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.