Woman's Hour - Annette Bening, Covid realities project, Ann Cleeves, Corroboration in rape trials

Episode Date: September 1, 2020

Annette Bening stars in a new film 'Hope Gap' about the collapse of a marriage after 29 years. She joins Jane to discuss the disintegration of that union.The Covid realities project from York and Birmingham universities chronicles the experiences of low-income families during the lockdown period. Jane hears about the project from Dr Maddy Power, Research Fellow at the University of York and founder of the York Food Justice Alliance, and from Shirley who is taking part in the project. Ann Cleeves is the author of more than thirty critically acclaimed novels. She previously worked as a probation officer, bird observatory cook, and auxiliary coastguard before she started writing. Her latest novel is The Darkest Evening – the ninth in the Vera series.What impact does corroboration have on conviction rates for rape in Scotland? We hear from Emma Bryson, a founder member of Speak Out Survivors, and Grazia Robertson, a criminal lawyer based in Glasgow who sits on the Law Society of Scotland Criminal Law Committee.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast from Tuesday, the 1st of September 2020. Hello, good morning to you. Annette Bening is one of our guests this morning on the programme and also the novelist Anne Cleaves joins us too. There is a new Vera book out, it's called The Darkest Evening. Very appropriate as we turn all autumnal. So Anne Cleaves on us too. There is a new Vera book out. It's called The Darkest Evening. Very appropriate as we turn all autumnal.

So Anne Cleaves on the show today. And we'll also discuss corroboration in Scottish law. What impact does it actually have on Scottish justice? Two different opinions on that on Woman's Hour this morning. First, though, let's start with Annette Bening, star of films like American Beauty and The Kids Are Alright. She is playing a British woman in a new film set in Sussex. It's called Hope Gap.

She plays a woman called Grace who discovers that her husband, a schoolteacher played by Bill Nighy, wants to leave her after 29 years of marriage and their son, their only child, is caught up in the middle. Now, Grace is not too happy at a visit to the solicitors. Here she is. How can he sit there and say that I get the entire value of the family home, when the entire value of the family home is precisely what's being taken from me? I knew this wouldn't work.

Yes, it will. I'm being businesslike. No more references to sneaking two-faced marital treachery. So this settlement you and Edward have come up with, do I get more than I'd get if he died? If he died? Yes. Well, no. As things stand, if your husband died, you'd get the house,

your joint savings and a full widow's pension. And if we get a divorce, I get less? Yes. So it would be better for me if you were dead? But I'm not. It would be better in every way. That gives you a flavour of this film, Hope Gap. It is a true story.

It's based on the collapse of the writer Bill Nicholson's parents' marriage. Both of his parents pulled him into their experience and in a way he felt responsible. He felt responsible for fixing it. He felt responsible for helping each of them as best he could. That of course is a very, what's the word, it's a very satisfying intimacy that you can have as an actor with a writer who is in some ways going over and asking their own questions about their own life experience. And you become a part of that process of trying to work things out and the pain that they went through and what it was for all of them.

And what do you make of the reaction of the wife? You play Grace. And Grace's reaction to her husband, played by Bill Nighy, just wanting to go. She's livid and she's completely in denial as well. Yes, which I find very interesting, even amusing, because it's so human. She wasn't at all amenable to it. And her denial was so complete. She so refused to accept that this was happening. I have great affection for her. I mean, that is what we do as actors. We get these incredible affections for our characters, whatever they're doing. I love not having to judge people and just get behind them, in this case, this woman, and to back her up and feel I'm her advocate. And so she did refuse. She absolutely refused to accept it. And from a religious point of view, she didn't believe in it.

She really believed that once you had made that vow, that was it. And even when they'd break up, they never got a legal divorce. And in fact, he supported her the rest of their lives. And when she finally died, as a very old, much older woman, Bill called his dad to tell his dad that his mother had died. And then about two weeks later, his dad called him to say that he had married the woman that he had then been living with since he left his wife. They'd been together a long time and they got married. Yeah, I mean, based on that then, she didn't do the right thing, did she? Was she taking pleasure in her former partner's pain and discomfort? Why would you want to do that in the end?

I can see why she did what she did. Was it right? Was it wrong? I don't know, but that's not really the question for me. The question for me is, why did she do what she did? I think part of it was her religious background. She was a very, very devoted Catholic and believed deeply in that faith. And I think that guided her and supported her and also for her own reasons was really a deep part of her life but does she do the quote right thing that's for other people to ask yeah well i guess many people who see the film um will either be in a long marriage or will have knowledge of long marriages and i guess we all know um that just because a marriage is still in existence,

it doesn't necessarily mean it's a happy one. We've got to be honest about that, haven't we? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we all see it and we all are around it and we've seen couples who stay together and are miserable, but she just could not accept it. It's true. Devastating to watch. And I know I found it very painful to think about for people that live that way, that she could not move on really in her life. And that's so sad. You've appeared in some astounding films. But you're now, I mean, you must be one of the few people who's made a film like this one and is also part now of the Marvel franchise.

You play a cyborg. Is it a cyborg? I'm afraid this isn't my world, but a cyborg? It's not my world either. I don't think so. Is that what I was? I don't remember. I don't think so.

I got to play two characters, which was also really fun. For me, it was just a complete joy and silly. And I was only there for a few weeks. And for me, it was just like coming into a playground and getting to roll around in the dirt and die and dance and travel. And it was, for me, really fun. Forgive me if I thought you were playing a cyborg. No, maybe I was. You know, I don't remember if that word doesn't ring a bell, but you're probably right. I'm sure you're right. You've said you were allowed, because you're a female actor, you were allowed to be a sex

symbol for only a certain amount of time and then inevitably the scales tip. And did you find yourself playing mothers rather sooner than you might have expected? How did all that develop? No, I never really thought of it that way. And I never really thought of myself as a sex symbol, certainly. You know, I didn't do a movie until I was almost 30 and I did a family comedy called The Great Outdoors. And I was a mom. So I never wasn't doing that kind of thing. Although I do notice that all of the leading men that I played opposite were considerably older than I was. Most of them were. I mean, my husband's 21 years older, but that is how it was then for most actresses. And it's the same now. Not always, but very often

a younger actress is paired with someone older, but that's the way it is. Yeah, well, it is the way it is. And whose fault is it? I mean, to a degree, I guess audiences have a part to play here. We should just refuse to engage. I don't know. Whose fault is it? I think it's part of the machine of movie making. And movies are entertainment and they're a business. And of course, mainly controlled by men, although that's changing. Obviously, you mentioned your husband is Warren Beatty. I'm laughing only because there'll be a fair few women who listen to this interview whose idea of bliss will be locked down with Warren. Is he a good person to be

locked down with? Can you tell me? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, we feel very fortunate. I mean, there's so much that's going on here and around the world that is so fraught with economic problems, people losing their businesses, illness, death, etc. So we feel very lucky and we are we're doing fine. Thank you. And in terms of your your career and the roles you've played, I know you've been asked before whether you would be cast now as a gay woman, as you were in the film with Julianne Moore, The Kids Are All Right. I think it's fair to say that you wouldn't now. Would you be allowed or even suggested as somebody who could play a gay woman when you happen not to be gay? I can imagine it happening. Of course, those considerations have changed, haven't they? But I don't know. I would have to sort of take that as it came, depending on who was doing it and

what the thinking was behind it and who else might be available to do it. Yeah, I don't know. I know that that's a very divisive question right now. So it may be impossible to do in the future. I'm not quite sure. I'll have to sort of see how that plays out. I haven't really thought it through. I would take it as it came, I suppose. I don't think there's any reason to just say absolutely not. That is the view of the actress Annette Bening, who is in that new film Hope Gap, set in Sussex. And it'll be interesting to get the reactions of other people,

perhaps, who've been through that. A marriage breakup after nearly 30 years, extremely tough. And I think it's admirably illustrated in that film. Hope Gap's in cinemas and on Curzon Home Cinema now and if film is your thing and film stars are your thing then Hilary Swank is our guest on Friday. She's actually talking about a new

television show, Netflix show, about a mission to Mars. That's called Away. So Hilary with us on Friday Morning's programme. Now I think it's pretty obvious to everybody that low income families have really had a tough time over the last couple of months during lockdown. And now the universities of Birmingham and York are busy collecting the experiences of parents and carers in this country. One of those involved in the research is Maddy Power, Dr. Maddy Power, research fellow in the Department of Health Sciences at the University of York. She's also the founder of the York Food Justice Alliance and co-chair of the Independent Food Aid Network. And we can talk to Shirley, who's from Keithley in West Yorkshire and is

taking part in the research that Maddy is very much a part of. Maddy, let's start with you. How many people are you talking to and listening to? About 30 to 40 on a regular basis. So we've probably got about 70 signed up, but we have about 30 who contribute regularly. And are they individuals or overwhelmingly family units? They're all family units because the kind of criteria being evolved is that you have children under the age of 19. Lots of them are single parents and they're largely women. And why did you decide to do it? I think it really came out of the sense when kind of with the height of lockdown,

there was lots of research suddenly starting around COVID. Actually, the voices of people who might really be experiencing this and who are living on low income were kind of missing from the debate. And the other researchers involved in the project, so Kayleigh Garthwaite and Ruth Patrick, we all have experience of doing research with people in poverty and involving those people crucially in that research. And I think we thought that's what we could maybe contribute here. And how have you defined low income? So we let people really define it for themselves.

So we say, when people are signing up, do you think you're managing a tight budget? And we use a kind of subjective measure of income. So we're not using kind of an amount or certain benefits. So it's really for people to think about whether or not they are on a low income. So up to a point then, this is a self-selecting group of people, isn't it? it yeah very much so yeah and they email you every week how does it all work so we have a website I kind of set up a new website and people can sign on by going to coveredrealities.org and they go through a little process and go through a kind of consent process just to check they know what's involved and then

they have their own dashboard a bit like you might have on facebook and they can write their own diaries and post it and they could do that using text or video or audio or pictures and we also do these kind of questions of the week so every week one of us will record a question and just post it online and then people can answer the question again they can type it or record it themselves or post a video so there's lots of ways. And we also kind of do online discussion groups because we're really keen to bring people together to talk. It's not just kind of a transactional thing. People are really involved in it. And they can help each other, presumably,

which has got to be a positive. Shirley, I know that you take part. Can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and your circumstances? Hello there. Basically, I'm a lone parent. My youngest son is now 15. He's also my young carer because I've been disabled with something called degenerative cervical myelopathy since 2011.

He was seven at the time. Consequently, I've ended up on disability benefits. So I'm on employment support allowance and currently personal independence payment. And it got to the point where I'd been to my third tribunal with the DWP and I ended up scoring zero points initially, and then I won the tribunal. And I'd just got to the point where I was so fed up of having to manage on so little money that I started, well, I fell into activism.

I became an accidental activist. And through various links with various organisations, I've come to meet up with Dr Ruth Patrick and also Dr Power Made on the website. Right. And I want to really get an insight Shirley into how life has been for you during lockdown what has it been like? From a day-to-day basis because I don't go out very much on that score it's not been very different however things for example when when everybody started panic buying in the initial stages, all the shelves were cleared and I couldn't get shopping slots because normally I try and get my shopping delivered if I can afford to have it delivered or make the minimum basket value. But I couldn't get shopping slots. I couldn't queue for long enough because I don't make it onto any government vulnerable list, even though I've got a long-term chronic disability um so it's difficult for me to queue so I ended up having to rely on something called the Real Drunk Food Project

who are based in Wakefield um for a weekly freedom box that I paid a small amount of money for and also heading down to the local discount supermarket on a late Friday evening. When you felt slightly safer to do so? Yes, basically less people there because the fact is my condition is a neurological condition and I feel very worried about actually developing Covid because if I get it, who's going to look after my son? And that's my main worry. Things are meant to be officially opening up 1st of September today lots of children going back to school in England and Wales already back in Northern Ireland and Scotland how are you feeling about everything Shirley? Well as regards children returning to

school I don't need to worry on that score because I actually home educate my son he's he was due to go into year 10 last year but i took him out because he felt well i felt school wasn't right for him basically so he follows his own um interests really um because home education is actually not prescribed as such you can follow your own interests and delve as deeply into things as you want to yeah so you are teaching him at home uh based basically on his own interests in it on his interests however with the covid lockdown um all of his out interests are actually outdoors so for example he's learning to crew a canal boat with canal connections in leeds and um they've been they've had to go online so they've done not they've had

to do coursework online. But they really do need to take the boat out. And that, for my son, is crucial because it's the one thing he really enjoys. So he's missing out, as of course we all have, up to a point over the last couple of months. And financially, obviously, you would be put onto universal credit. That hasn't happened to you yet. You're on the so-called the bundle of legacy. Yes, legacy benefits. Yeah.

How long are you likely to stay on legacy benefits before you're moved over? I'll be quite honest with you. I have no idea. There's been no indication as to when that's going to happen. I understand that there was a trial run near to my home in the Harrogate district, but I haven't heard anything else since then and that's been over a year ago a year or so ago now right you've lost out financially because you

haven't got that 20 additional 20 quid a week that's right yes um for some reason um and it's great that the people on universal credit have got it because they do need it. But yes, we've missed out on that. So we've just had the annual uprating of disability benefits in April that we always have. However, the council, unusually, because I'm liable to pay council tax, I have had a £150 rebate on my council tax, which is great. It is interesting to hear from somebody like you who has dealt with what life has thrown at her not just in the last couple of months um so uh so competently but i i don't i mean you you're you're able to to come on here and to speak about it not everybody

would be willing to do so surely do you feel a responsibility to speak up for others who are frankly coping less better than you absolutely because there's not just me in this situation there are so many more i live in quite a deprived area and i think a lot of us are in a similar situation um certainly we have a food bank at my local um neighborhood um dropping center um but yes i i hope that by speaking up for people who feel unable I might get a chance to change social policy which is actually really really important to me because what in your view needs to be changed well I think it's great that we live in a country where we do have some form of social security we would be totally lost without it it is a lifeline that needs to be preserved but I think it's a lifeline that can

actually be improved to give more buoyancy when poverty strikes because anybody can be swept into poverty and Covid-19 is definitely going to exacerbate that. Thank you very much for being willing to talk to us Shirley Shirley. Really appreciate it. Maddy. You're welcome. Thank you. Take care of yourself and your young son. And Maddy, Shirley is just one of the people

who's contributing to your research. What really matters is what you do with what you find out and whether what you find out changes anything, I guess. Yeah, definitely. I think we're all really keen that actually this leads to change. And it's not just kind of research for the sake of research and what's really crucial for us is that the participants feed into that change so we're doing lots of kind of discussion groups around policy recommendations around change and then the ideas that come out of that will work with our project partner who's

child property action group to see how we can really make that change that kind of those ideas a reality and to lobby government. Thank you very much indeed for taking part today. Dr Maddy Power, who's from the Department of Health Sciences at the University of York. Now, we really did get an incredible reaction to no casting or hyperbole to one side. We got an incredible reaction to yesterday's programme, which was about the 40th anniversary of the play Educating Rita. We talked to Willie Russell, who wrote the original play and the screenplay for the film.

We talked to Dame Julie Walters, and we talked to some real-life Ritas who went back to education and absolutely lapped it up. If you missed that programme, it is, of course, available on BBC Sounds. But I just had such a good time, came in early this morning and just read loads of the emails that had come into the programme after yesterday's programme. So I just want to read one or two of them now and share them with you. Educating Rita so resonates with me, says a listener called Julia. I was a teenage

mum in Birmingham who was told I had ruined my life many times over. I clawed my way back into education at a time when you could go to night school to do A-levels. I went back to university to study English at 26. I was the first person in my family to go and I loved it. Although I too was in a difficult relationship and like Rita, I had to deal with him trying to sabotage my opportunity. I am now teaching, educating Rita at a girls' school in London and I can tell you it is really relevant today, especially to girls from some communities

where there is still a sense of patriarchy. The girls absolutely love the text and we can cover so many important topics like class and politics and culture, topics which sometimes need to be tackled sensitively with those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. So there's just one example. And we have honestly got so many, it's hard to do justice, but I'll just read this one from Marlene. Thank you for today's programme about educating Rita and the Open University.

I started an OU course at the age of 40 in 1977. I'd been actually an actress for 16 years, reasonably successful. And during one of my out of work times I decided that my secondary modern education in the north east of England had left a lot to be desired and I should do something productive with spare time by the time I'd started the course I was working again and often theatre first nights collided with assignment deadlines

but I persevered and I graduated 8 years later my degree didn't take me into new paths of employment, but what it did give me was a tremendous confidence in my ability to put my own thoughts and feelings into words. The joy of getting my first essays back, having got a B plus or an A, was life-changing. I wasn't so stupid after all, and learning was enjoyable too. Honestly, there are so many similar emails from you. Really enjoyed hearing from you. Keep those emails coming. And I think we'll just have to go back to this subject because so many people were so wrapped up in what we

talked about yesterday. But thank you all. And we do read them, honestly. Now, a couple of weeks ago on the programme, I talked to a representative of rape crisis in Shetland and to a young woman who'd asked people to come forward to report experiences of sexual assault on Shetland. Now, during that conversation, the term corroboration was mentioned and described in some cases as a barrier to conviction. Well, Emma Bryson believes it is. She's the founder member of an organisation called Speak Out Survivors. Grazia Robertson is a criminal defence lawyer in Glasgow. She sits on the Law Society of Scotland Criminal Law Committee. Now, of course, we need to emphasise right at the start, the law in Scotland is different.

And it's important to say, too, that convictions for sex crimes in Scotland have actually risen in the last year. So let's start with Grazia. Good morning to you. Good morning. For listeners outside Scotland, Grazia, what is corroboration? Corroboration is the rule that says you can not be convicted on the source of one piece of evidence alone. You need a little something extra, effectively, from somewhere else to back up your main source of evidence. And how long has that been a part of Scottish law? It's an old historical rule. It dates back a long time.

So you don't know when. It's been around forever, as far as you're aware? Yes, effectively, yes. It goes back to the old days of Hume and the great institutional writers. so you don't know when it's been around forever as far as you're aware yes effectively yes it goes back to the old days of hume and the great institutional writers so it's very much embedded in the law right and it would apply let's say i was up in court in scotland for um burglary i corroboration would still be required yes we would call it housebreaking it would be the same thing and corroboration is a rule that applies to every crime. Right. Well, there are a few minor exceptions, but nothing you would need to worry about here. OK, so it does apply in sexual crimes too, obviously.

Yes, it does. Right. But you don't believe it's a barrier to conviction. I would say it's not necessarily a barrier to conviction. I'm not convinced that if we didn't have corroboration, things would be materially different regarding the prosecution of sexual cases and the conviction rate. I think it's quite a complex issue that probably needs to be looked at from a number of different angles. Well, we've got a bit of time this morning so we can explore some of those angles. Emma Bryson, you really do believe that corroboration needs to go. Why do you believe that so strongly? Well, first of all, I would say that we believe that corroboration needs to be reformed rather than to go. And, you know, we believe that partly based on our experience. So Speak Out Survivors

was launched in 2018 by myself, Susie Angus and Shirley Ross after we'd all had a really similar experience of reporting sexual offences to the police and then being told that a prosecution wasn't possible because the evidence didn't meet these legal requirements for corroboration. And that was really difficult to accept because what it meant was that although there was evidence available, it was the wrong sort of evidence

because to go ahead with a prosecution for a sexual offence, you have to prove very specific things. Like you need two independent sources of evidence to prove that penetration took place. You need two independent sources of evidence to prove that consent wasn't given. And as an entry point for justice, this sets, we think, an unachievably high bar for the majority of rape victims. So we really wanted to try to address this. And in the aftermath of our own cases, being dropped without any further proceedings, you know, as much as we had nothing left to hope for, we also had nothing left to lose by speaking out. And that's really what we're trying to do at this point is really just to kind of help other people understand where the problems are and how they might be addressed. So you're basically making the point that corroboration

in terms of sexual crimes, allegations of sexual crimes, is a problem because by their very nature sexual crimes are different. Absolutely, yeah. So corroboration of other crimes is often as simple as having an eyewitness, whereas when you're talking about sexual offences, it's highly unlikely you're ever going to have somebody in the room witnessing what happened. And in the absence of a witness, corroboration relies heavily upon medical or forensic evidence. Now, it's also rightly recognised that the majority of rape victims don't immediately report to the police, so it can potentially be weeks or even years before someone comes forward, by which point the forensic evidence isn't available.

So if you have a situation where someone reports a rape months or years after the event and that there are no witnesses, there's no forensic evidence and there aren't any additional complainants, then it's extremely unlikely that a prosecution is going to be possible. Right. But we need to emphasise again that convictions for sex crimes in Scotland have gone up. Well, so have the number of reported rapes in Scotland. They've gone up significantly year on year. And while it's always encouraging to see an increase in the number of convictions,

the average numbers over the last few years, they've not changed significantly. On average, the percentage of reported rapes that are taken forward to prosecution are round about the 10%. And the conviction rates, the most recent figures show a conviction rate of round about 6%. I think last year was 5%. So it's not, there is some improvement, which we're delighted to see, but it's not enough, we would say. Okay, and Emma, is it your belief that the existence of corroboration stops certain sexual crime cases getting as far as prosecution?

Yeah, I think that it can be seen to be almost a protection to those who commit offences. These requirements of corroboration are so difficult to come by that in the majority of cases, they simply aren't available. And this is why it's only a small percentage of cases that are ever taken forward to prosecution in the first place. Grazia what do you sorry to interrupt you Emma but Grazia what do you think about that? I think it can be difficult if you're investigating an allegation from many many years ago to try and find sufficient evidence to be able to present to a jury that

probably applies to any sort of crime if you're going back many years. So I can understand there's a difficulty. All I would say is that the corroboration law has been substantially, in a sense, weakened over the years. What's required for corroborative evidence is actually very little. It's just a little bit extra that supports your one strand of evidence. So the courts and their judgments have actually recognised in a sense how difficult it is to find, certainly not to eyewitnesses, but to find corroborative evidence. So they have allowed cases to proceed on a very small amount of additional evidence. And remember, the law of corroboration was seen as a safeguard or a protection against wrongful conviction. And while I wouldn't say you have to have it,

I know other jurisdictions don't specifically have this particular law, you would have to look at other safeguards if you were to get rid of corroboration. I'm not sure what reform Emma was meaning when she was talking about reforming the law. We'll try and get that from her in a moment or two, but we also need to emphasise, because we're trying to be as clear as possible,

that the jury works differently in Scotland as well, Grazia. It doesn't work differently. You just need to persuade, in a sense, fewer people in Scotland. You need eight people out of 15 for a conviction in Scotland. In England, it's either a unanimous 12 people you have to convince, or at the very least, you have to convince 10 of them of someone's guilt. Right. So, Emma, to go back to Grazia's point, what is the reform you seek? So the reform that we're, there are a number of suggestions that we're putting forward. But before I go on to that, can I just refer back to a couple of things that Grazia said beforehand? So when she was talking about the idea that corroboration is being has been watered down in recent years.

So, first of all, you know, we we welcome anything that enables, you know, more cases to, you know, to make it as far as being prosecuted as being prosecuted. So that's that's something, you know, we're we're really pleased to hear. In response to the argument that corroboration prevents false allegations of miscarriages of justice, the question we would ask is, given that corroboration is unique to Scotland, so no other country in the world has these specific requirements in the same way that Scotland does, the question that we would like to ask is, why do men in Scotland need special laws to protect them from women who report sexual violence, when in every other country in the world, the weight of a body of evidence is accepted as protection enough? And just to carry on from that, one of the things that we would recommend in terms of our proposal for reform is that the body of evidence is allowed to be considered rather than

just making sure that these very specific boxes are ticked. Emma, thank you very much. A lot to get our heads around there. But Grazia, the idea that Scottish men need what Emma describes as special protection. I wouldn't say it was special protection. It's a law. It's there to protect everyone accused of a crime. It doesn't have to be there. We could get rid of it if you like, but you will have to put something else in its place. And I'm not convinced that by getting rid of it, you're going to have an impact on the cases going forward and the convictions at the end of the day. Really very interesting indeed. Thank you both very much. Grazia Robertson, criminal defence lawyer in Glasgow, and Emma Bryson, who's the founder member of the organisation Speak Out Survivors.

I'd be very interested to get your thoughts on that at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email the programme via our website, bbc.co.uk slash woman's hour. Anne Cleaves is the author of actually some novels, of course, set famously on Shetland, which we talked about at the very beginning of the previous interview, but also the creator of Vera, my favourite fictional detective. Her latest novel is a Vera and it's called The Darkest Evening. Anne Cleaves, good morning to you. How are you? Good morning, Jane. Lovely to speak to you. Well, it's fantastic to speak to you. This is The Darkest Evening in a funny way is, well, it's almost Christie-esque in its country house setting, isn't it? Just tell

us a little bit about it. Yeah, well, I hope so. It's a midwinter country house murder mystery, but I hope it has a contemporary flavour too. We learn a little bit more about Vera's background, about her dad and her family. So her dad grew up in this big crumbling country house and was the black sheep of the family. And quite by chance, Vera finds herself back there investigating a crime. Yes. And there is something, I think, that's quite reassuring about those winter country house murder mysteries.

So it was great fun to write. Yeah, we should say that murder in itself isn't terrifically reassuring, but I know what you mean. I think it's the classic murder mystery, though, isn't it? That at times of trouble and discontent and when we're all a bit anxious and we're not quite sure who's in charge of us, our lives and our destiny. To have a traditional murder mystery where there is some sense of order restored at the end of justice being seen to be done. And justice being seen to be done by Vera,

which is hugely significant. Can I just ask a sensitive question about Vera? Will she ever retire from the police? She's not ageing in real time in the books. So I'm quite happy to go on writing her for a little while yet. Yeah. So she will be with us for many, many cases to come. That's what I'm most concerned about. I hope so. I think the great thing, because she's set here in the northeast where I live, there's such a wide palette of backgrounds for me to write about. We have the almost feudal rural setting of The Darkest Evening, but then we have faded seaside towns.

We have post-industrial landscape like the former pit villages and the places where we used to build ships, and we don't anymore. So that gives me lots and lots to write about. I stopped writing about Shetland because there are only 23,000 people in Shetland. And between us, the TV drama and I had killed quite a lot of them. Right. It's just very practical. You felt you couldn't realistically set any more murder mysteries on Shetland. Fair enough. Well, I think I'd also said all that I needed to say about it.

Yeah. I mean, on the same point, you wouldn't buy a property in Midsomer, would you? Because your chances of lasting longer than the first ad break would be pretty limited. What I love many things about Vera, not least that, as you've indicated, we do hear about her inner life and her sticky family circumstances and also her judgment on her colleagues. Despite knowing almost nothing about marriage, she's got a lot to say about other people's marriages and relationships hasn't she? I think her colleagues think that she's very hard on them but I think what Vera would hate more than anything is to be patronised so she absolutely refuses to patronise other people

so she doesn't see why they should need the pat on the back or for her to be thoughtful about their childcare arrangements or the fact that a baby's kept them awake all night. She would hate people to make allowances for her for the fact that she's got to drive back to the hills in her battered old Land Rover or that she's on her own. And the fact that she struggles with her, well, she is actually her protege, Holly,

who is the young female detective. They have quite a spiky relationship, don't they? Why did you want to write it like that? I think it just grew like that, really. Holly is young, ambitious, but also a bit of a loner in the same way, and socially awkward in a way that Vera herself is. She's a young Vera, isn't she? She is a bit of a loner in the same way, and socially awkward in a way that Vera herself is. She's a young Vera, isn't she?

She is a bit of a young Vera, yes. But neither of them are keen to recognise the similarities. No, absolutely not. No, Holly is much smarter than Vera. She certainly wouldn't be dressed in charity shop clothes. No, and Vera, I think the reason that so many readers, particularly female readers, invest in Vera is that she is, there is something delightfully non-threatening about her. Because

we know that Vera is a bit sad and she isn't a wild success story. And a lot of us can identify with that. Yeah, she is. And she's a loner, but she's not lonely, I think. And for lots of us who were in lockdown on our own and struggling and surviving and doing it, I think she's somebody that we admire because she's always on her own and she's always having to cope without the help of other people and without having friends to have coffee with.

Her job is her life. And again, I think there are quite a lot of people who are like that, both men and women, who worry about retirement, who worry about what they'll do when work is at an end. What has your experience of the lockdown period been personally? It wasn't very different because I was here and I was writing. I did for the first eight or ten weeks have my 11-year-old grandson staying with me because he'd come straight out of hospital. He has chronic asthma and was on really high medication. So it was before the official lockdown. His siblings were still at school. So the whole family thought he was better to come here for a bit and to shield. And so we had quite a nice time. He would sit at the kitchen table and do his work and I would sit at the kitchen table and make up stories. And then we'd meet for lunch. So that was quite jolly. Yeah, you make it all sound so simple. Can I just ask though, from the point of view of an 11-year-old boy,

was he asking you questions about the situation that you couldn't answer? He was really pragmatic about it. I think because he'd been in and out of hospital quite a lot over the last couple of years, that he just really rolled with it and took everything in his stride. And after a bit, first of all, his mum came and waved through the window at him. And then after a bit, she was able to take him out for walks. And we're very close anyway. I'm very close to all the grandchildren. So he sort of settled into it very, very well and just took it for granted that that was what had to happen. But yeah.

Does he know that his grandmother's sitting at the kitchen table, as you described, just quietly writing bestselling books? Again, because I've been in it for a long time, so since they were born. And really, they've only been bestselling for the last few years. It's just what I've always been doing, really. And I have dedicated a book to each of them. So those books are a bit special for them. So you share it out amongst the family. Well, that's good. I mean,

and do you detect any signs of literary prowess in that generation of the family? I'm not sure. I think certainly the grandson that was staying with me was much more into maths and science than English. But as long as they're passionate about something, I don't mind what it is. I'm really interested in what you do about encouraging the young people in your family to read. That's tricky, isn't it? Because it's so much easier to look at screens. But they love having books read to them, even the older ones, like having bedtime stories. Sometimes audio books, I think, work for younger people.

And there are, again, lots and lots of those. And just have the books around for them. Join them up to the library. That's a big thing because then there's no pressure, is there? If you paid money for a book, you jolly well want them to read it. But if it's free, they can read it or not as they like. Yeah, OK. I mean, it does work, does it?

If they grow up around books, in the end, they're going to, out of curiosity, just pick one up. We hope so, yeah. That was Anne Cleaves, of course, the brilliant creator of Vera and so many other fantastic characters. And the new Vera book is The Darkest Evening out now. I think she is right. I suppose if children do grow up around books in the end, even my two Herberts have recently started picking these things up and actually reading them. So to my amazement and to their amazement, Turns out the books are quite a thing and quite good. So, yes, keep books in the house if you're lucky enough to be able to

and eventually they will pick them up. Now, what do people want to talk about today? We've still loads of stuff on Educating Readers, so we'll read some more emails about that as well. On the subject of Annette Bening, Alyssa says, I'm a lesbian. Are we really saying actors can't play a part that they're not? Well, where does that stop? Actors can only take part in autobiographical work, really?

Isn't acting about playing people that you're not? Does that mean lesbians can no longer get any work because there are so few lesbian roles? It's nuts. No, of course, it's interesting, isn't it, Alyssa? Of course, it doesn't mean that. But I thought we'd reached a point where we think it's only reasonable for lesbians to be played by lesbians. And indeed, there are all kinds of complications, of course, when we investigate this whole subject matter in more detail. But it was an interesting, well, I thought it was an interesting question, which is why I asked her. What else? Oh yes, this is actually on the cyborg question that also cropped up in the Annette Bening interview.

Keith says, I've got my geek hat on here. I'm afraid I do have to take issue with the presenter's insistence, that was me, that Annette Bening played a cyborg in the film Captain Marvel. In fact, I am indebted to Keith for putting me right here. In fact, she played two roles, one as the alien scientist working on Earth for the Air Force, Dr. Wendy Lawson, ostensibly human,

and also the holographic projection of the supreme intelligence, an advanced alien computer. Neither of these really can be described as cyborg, which is a name given to a being that has both organic and biometrical body parts. I'm sorry to be a pedant here, says Keith, but I do think it's right to set the record straight. Annette was correct in her recollection of the Supreme Intelligence, an advanced alien computer. I hope that's clear. Hang on a second. Donald. Now, this is this is not just producers getting involved, which is wearing it off. But now studio managers. What? What do you say? What? Part machine, but part biological, suggests Donald McDonald. OK.

Look, I don't know. No, we're keeping it in. Everything that's in the podcast stays in the podcast. Everything. That's why at the point of a podcast. Look, I don't know. I've never seen Captain Marvel. I'm more of a Vera person.

I think I made clear this morning. Keith, thank you for that. When you've got real expertise like Keith has about these sorts of films, then please share it. Right, let's go to Educating Rita again. This is from Tracy, who says, after listening to your programme yesterday, I signed up for a free course on the Open University website. It's about effective communication in the workplace and I'm really enjoying it. So thank you for a fantastic bank holiday episode. It was entertaining, it was informative and it was educational. Just what the BBC should be. Tracy, that is brilliant

and I'm so glad that the programme worked for you and that you've already acted on it and actually done something. And I just hope the new director, I can't even say it, the new director General Tim is listening and I'm sure he regularly listens to the Woman's Hour podcast and has got the message there that Woman's Hour yesterday ticked all the boxes. And all I'll say about Tim Davey is we may have a new boss here.

Got the same old vermin. It was the first thing I saw when I came out of the lift this morning was not even that small brown mouse hurtling across the majestic concourse of Broadcasting House. They are still there and I don't think any DG will ever get rid of the vermin. But there have been so many emails on Educating Rita that I just wanted to read a few more now. And this is quite long, but it's just really interesting. It's from Anna. My parents were both born in Liverpool and moved to the Wirral where I was born in 1937 we had a rented house

and I went to the village school my dad was a watchmaker my mother a housewife we were poor and I hadn't even thought about a future I did pass the 11 plus and was told as my mother tore up the acceptance card well you can't go because we can't afford the uniform, so don't get your hopes up. Even though my brother, older than me by five years, had passed it and went to the boys' grammar. But I did get the uniform a week before term started, when my loan came through.

In class, I was argumentative and talkative. A far-sighted teacher asked me to be involved in the House Drama Festival as a producer of the chosen play. I sang in the choir and got involved in the school magazine, all thanks to Mrs W. At 16, my dad died suddenly and I had to leave school to help my mother with my sister and brother, aged four and two. So I went to work at a factory over the night shift while my mother did the day shift. I was allowed to take two O-levels, English Literature and English Language,

and I passed them both. At 22, I left home, worked in various hotels. I travelled to Greece with a friend and stayed there for two years. On my return, I met the man I married and settled down to homemaking and children. I was 40 when a friend asked me which uni I'd been to. I said, well, I didn't go. She recommended the Open University. I did an access course and settled for English literature,

followed by American literature, religions, then psychology. After eight years, I graduated with a 2.1 and I worked at family centres, studied psychotherapy, graduated after four years as a registered psychotherapist at the age of 52. I'm now 82, I'm a widow and retired, but I still have a keen interest in music, in drama, in psychology, in languages and travel, much of the latter on my own. The 11 plus and the Open University gave me the confidence, courage and tenacity to seek and live an amazing and interesting life. Anna, thank you for that. It's interesting that some people obviously were really helped by passing the 11 plus. Others of you wrote very movingly to talk about how dreadful it was when you'd found out you had failed the 11 plus. And as we outlined in the programme yesterday, of course, there was something about the 11 plus exam. It was weighted in favour of boys, which we now know. So

many girls didn't actually fail it at all, but were told they'd failed it. So that has got so many of you going. I think that is a subject we also will have to return to. Let's read this anonymous email as well. I've been listening to your programme and the ladies who returned to education. I too failed the 11 plus and went to a secondary modern. However, through hard work and sheer bloody mindedness, I got into teacher training college, but that was when my self-confidence hit rock bottom. The gaps in my education were a source of amusement

to my middle-class peers and left the tutors exasperated. I had two years of essays returned, covered in all kinds of errors and told it meant split infinitive when they put SPs, but I didn't know what that was. My course was academic for two years, which was miserable, but the third was entirely school-based. Here, I came into my own. Middle-class students were horrified and useless in large state schools, whereas I understood the classroom dynamic and was offered two jobs when I completed my degree. I went on to spend 35 years teaching, much of it working in poorer areas and always encouraging pupils to widen their horizons. And she goes on, my son-in-law is a privately educated Cambridge graduate. His confidence and his breadth of knowledge astounds me

and makes me realise that I still have a chip on my shoulder all these years later at 62. Well, to that listener, thank you for that too. And it's difficult, isn't it? Those chips do tend to hang around, whatever you try to do. And another listener says, I'm listening to the interview about the Open University and would like to say this changed my life.

However, I would not have been able to get on the course if it hadn't been for my employer, Hampshire County Council, paying my fees. I would not have been able to become a teacher if it wasn't for the Greater London Education Authority giving me a student grant. I left school at 15 to work as I didn't pass the 11+. Financial ability to pay for education is a big issue, says that listener.

Also, I should say, lots of you mentioning further education courses and colleges and how important they are and how no one talks about them. So I'm going to make it a mission of mine to make sure that we do talk about it over the next couple of weeks. Tomorrow on the programme, Jenny is here. She's talking to Cressida Dick, the head of the Met, and discussing widows.

We'll talk to one of the authors of a new book that looks again at widowhood and discovers that, in fact, for many women, the death of their spouse led to good things, financial independence and more power over their lives. That's tomorrow. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.