Woman's Hour - Annie Lennox, Paracetamol in pregnancy, Liquid BBLs, Phubbing

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

The multi award-winning singer songwriter Annie Lennox has been part of the musical landscape for almost 50 years, from her days in The Tourists, to the Eurythmics and then going solo. Now at the age of 70, Annie has brought out a book of photographs called Annie Lennox: Retrospective, and talks to Nuala McGovern about her life and career.President Trump has said that pregnant women should avoid paracetamol because of the risks of autism and that US doctors will soon be advised not to prescribe Tylenol, as paracetamol is known in the US, to pregnant women. However he didn't provide any scientific evidence for this. UK health officials have stressed that paracetamol remains the safest painkiller available to pregnant women, and Health Secretary Wes Streeting has told women to ignore Trump's comments. Nuala is joined by Dr Alex Tsompanidis, senior research associate at the Autism Research Centre at Cambridge University and the BBC's Health reporter, Jim Reed.It’s a year since the death of Alice Webb, the first woman in the UK to die from complications after a liquid Brazilian butt lift, a non-surgical procedure injecting filler into the buttocks. You don’t need to have any medical qualifications to carry out the procedure. We talk to Sasha Dean who had terrifying complications after a liquid BBL and to David Sines from the JCCP, which runs a voluntary regulator for practitioners.Are you guilty of ‘phubbing’? It’s the process of snubbing the person you are with in person by looking at your phone. New research shows that these phone snubs can have a huge impact on relationships. Dr Claire Hart, Associate Professor of Psychology at the University of Southampton, tells us about her findings and Dr Kaitlyn Regehr, University College London and author of Smartphone Nation, discusses the impact parental phubbing can have on children.

Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, this hour, Annie Lennox, we look back at the life and career of the singer, songwriter and global feminist activist through her beautiful new visual memoir retrospective. Also today, a woman who underwent an injectable Brazilian butt lift, but with a terrible outcome.

She continues to suffer to this day. She's calling for an overhaul of the law around the procedure. We will speak to her. And we want to talk about fubbing. That is phone snubbing. Are you guilty of picking up your phone and giving it attention when you are with other people?

Or does that sort of fub really rub you up the wrong way? Maybe you've called people out for doing it. Or perhaps, like potentially many of us, you are a hypocrite that you hate when people do it, but you do it yourself quite regularly. Well, we're going to talk about all of it to get in touch on that. Tell me your stories, your experiences. is how you call people out.

You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number, 0300-100-444. But let me begin with the story you've been hearing in the news bulletin this morning.

At a press conference at the White House yesterday, President Trump said that pregnant women should avoid paracetamol because of the risks of autism and that US doctors will assume be advised not to prescribe Tylenol, as paracetamol is known in the United States, to pregnant women. He didn't, however, provide any scientific evidence for this. U.K. health officials have stressed that paracetamol remains the safest painkiller available to pregnant women. The health

secretary, West Streeting, has told women to ignore Mr. Trump's comments. Well, to discuss this further, I'm joined this morning by Alex Sompanida, senior research associate at the Autism Research Center at Cambridge University and the BBC's health reporter Jim Reid with me in studio. Good morning to you both. Let me begin with you, Jim. What exactly did President Trump say? It was quite a remarkable speech last night, Lula, quite rambling in places. The headlines are about this very disputed link or connection association between taking paracetamol in pregnancy and a rising risk. He says, of autism. He was very outspoken, the president when he's talks about this, at one point saying taking Tylenol is no good, telling pregnant women

they should fight like hell not to take it and use it only, he said, in cases of extreme fever. Doctors in the US will soon also be advised not to prescribe the painkiller to pregnant women apart from in those situations. It goes without saying that that was heavily controversial, disputed, contested by doctors groups, by researchers, by medical regulators, doctors coming out overnight describing this as fear-mongering. Later on in the speech, he also talked at length about vaccines, raising concerns again about giving vaccines in a combined dose. So the MMR vaccine, measles, mumps and Rubella again came up.

He said he would personally advise people to take them separately. Again, that has very large downsides. I think that would be heavily criticised by some, many in the medical community. And he also talks about the HEPB vaccine, hepatitis B. saying it should only be given or only be taken from 12 years old and not to newborn babies. Again, all this is heavily disputed and quite controversial. And then his health secretary, Robert Kennedy, went on to say that they will soon approve an old cancer drug called Lecovrine that's used to protect some cancer patients against

toxicity from chemotherapy for the treatment of children with autism. Again, the evidence for that, there is some small-scale trials that have taken. place. But they are very small involving just dozens of children and even the authors involved, so a lot more work is needed. I mentioned the health secretary here Westreting, telling women to ignore Trump's comments. What is the NHS advice with regards to taking paracetamol if pregnant? Well, it was interesting because we had last night, we had, and this is unusual, we had a statement of rebuttal from the MHRA, which is the medicines regulator in the UK. And they say there is no evidence that taking paracetamol during pregnancy causes autism in children.

And they say it remains the recommended pain relief option. And importantly, they make the point that untreated pain and fever can also pose a risk to the unborn baby. So it's important to manage those symptoms, they say, with paracetamol. Is there an understanding of why President Trump has brought this up now? This is something that he has clearly been concerned about. And by that, I mean the rise in autism diagnosis in the United States in particular for some time. And when he started that speech yesterday, he said he'd been waiting 20 years for this moment, which he has described historic. He keeps bringing up this statistic, Nula, that 25 years ago in 2020, one in 150 children in the US were being diagnosed with autism.

Now it's one in 31. He says the number is higher in boys from California in particular. Now, those figures are not incorrect, but I think almost every autism researcher out there would say they are a result mainly. of a better recognition of autism in society and also a widening of the criteria used to define autism. For example, Asperger's syndrome used to be considered a separate syndrome. Now, it's part of the autism spectrum. So again, some of these figures he's using, not factually incorrect, but the way he's interpreting them very much contested by the medical community.

Thanks for that, Jim. Let me turn to you, Alex. First, perhaps your thoughts on those conversations. comments that Jim was making there and President Trump's, I suppose, focus on this rise in the number of autism cases, how would you describe the increase in figures? Yes, so the figures cited by Jim and his interpretation, I think, are spot on. There has been an increase in diagnosis, and for this reason, a lot of families are concerned and they noticed this in schools and they they come to us for answers.

And the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. The definition has been changing. The definition of autism has been changing. Officially and unofficially, the diagnosis is now applied a bit more widely and other syndromes that were part of the picture like Asperger's syndrome are no longer applied. So they're all autism now. It's no surprise, really, that we see an increase in diagnosis.

Are we any closer to understanding what the causes of autism are? I think so. And the key word here is causes. It's plural. It's never one single cause. It's a multifactorial trait, part of the neurodiversity of human societies. In a way, it's asking, what's the cause of someone being tall? There are many causes that act together. Genetics is one of them. Other conditions of the pregnancy, nutrition, all come together to shape brain development and lead to autism. This, of course, has been focused on pregnancy in particular. And we'd be curious to find out what research is happening here in the UK around pregnancy and autism. So there's a lot of research being done.

The UK has a lot of the cohorts we call birth cohorts. Birth cohorts are created when children are followed up over time since the moment they are born. And a particularly famous one, perhaps the first one in the UK, it's called Alspac. It's based in Bristol. And many more birth cohorts are now being set up. You might have heard them as born in Bradford or born in Scotland. and I think there has been a recent announcement of a nationwide birth cohort that will begin recruiting in 2026. So a lot of these studies are being done.

And trying to find out what exactly with those studies? A variety of different things. They're not specific to autism or ADHD, but getting as much data as possible over time in the same individuals is what can unlock discovery. And often these studies start in pregnancy. So the medication use of the mother or the pregnancy complications of the mother can then be compared to the likelihood of diagnosis like autism. Because President Trump, he talked about curing autism. Your thoughts on that, Alex? Well, we don't support research into a cure for autism, simply because autism is part of the neurodiversity of human society.

So if we look at pregnancy, we do this to understand the condition and diagnose children as early as possible after birth. There are big wait lists and delays in getting a diagnosis. So we think if we know about pregnancy, then when a child is born, we could perhaps fast-track their diagnosis. So research into a cure, I think, is misleading because autism is not one thing. there are some children with autism that require support, not all, and there are some autistic children that have disabilities. So helping these children cope with co-current conditions or disabilities or even sleeping problems

is a promising area of research and we need clinical trials that find perhaps supplements or medications that help autistic children with these co-current conditions. But a cure of autism as a whole is not. an area of research we're engaged in. Jim, with pregnancy, of course, such a sensitive issue and everybody wanting to do the best for their baby, does any fear of over medication, for example, while pregnant,

invoke previous crises, for example, many will be familiar with the thalidomide crisis or other issues like that? I think when you talk to doctors, one thing they're particularly concerned about, is looking back to, you remember, the MMR scandal back in the late 1990s and Andrew Wakefield, the doctor who was subsequently struck off making a link between autism and the MMR vaccine. And after that, we saw a sharp

drop off in take up of that vaccine. In fact, we've never got back to the levels we were in the late 90s since that point. I think speaking to doctors, they're concerned that we could be starting to see a repeat of that again, both with Mr. President Trump's comments on vaccines, but also his comments on paracetamol as well. The concern is that the mothers will simply stop taking some of this and stop putting children forth for vaccination as a result. So I think that's the major concern going forward here. And I suppose this also happens, though,

in a time of social media, which is different to previous crises or questions over medication and pregnancy. That's right. I mean, it's interesting that last MMR scare in the late 1990s was seen as the first really big medical. scare of the internet era. And now, of course, we're in a different situation entirely with people on social media and disinformation, misinformation, so it's going to be fascinating to see if we're going

to start to see an impact on take up, both of vaccines and take up of things like paracetamol and painkillers, as a result of some of the comments that have been coming out of the White House. Thank you both very much, Jim Reid, and also Alex Sampanides, talking about that story which of course has been making headlines since yesterday evening. I do want to also say, of course, NHS advice that pregnant women talk to their midwife and their GP if they do have any concerns about medication.

Now, I want to move on to the singer, the songwriter, the global feminist activist Annie Lennox OBE. Annie has been part of the musical landscape for five decades from her days in the tourists, the arithmetic, her highly successful solo career. Her hits, for many, have been the soundtrack of their lives. Eight Brit Awards, including Best Female, British Female Artist, a record six times, four Grammys, Golden Globe, an Academy Award,

the first woman to become a fellow of the British Academy of Songwriters, Composers and Authors, now the Ivers Academy, the first female chancellor of Glasgow, Caledonian University, an OBE for tireless charity campaigns and championing of humanitarian causes including women's rights through her organisation in the circle and now at the age of 70 brings us this beautiful visual memoir of her life and career.

Annie Lennox's retrospective. Welcome. Hey, here I am on Women's Hour. I'm exhausted by that list actually. I mean, it's such a beautiful book but going through it, you do realize you have lived a life. I certainly have. It's weird.

I mean, it's just very strange. And why now this book? It's time. It's time. Actually, when I think back and you've just read out that list, it was relentless. You know, my life has been a little bit relentless. It's been one thing after another, always doing something. And with very few breaks. And there was a time, maybe a decade or so,

maybe 15 years ago that quite a few publishers were approaching me and saying we'd love to make a book with you. And I was thinking, I'd love to do that. But there were always other things to do. Then we had COVID pandemic. And maybe at that point in time, I started reflecting and taking stock of everything that you've just said that I've done, and that's only a tiny section of it really.

I know. You know, and it is a life fully lived. I only wish my parents were still alive to see it, you have to know what it was. And your parents really are where you start this book. In fact, the first picture is one of this Bonnie Baby with an intent gaze staring out at us. And perhaps you could tell us a little of what your childhood in Aberdeen was like.

You were an only child. I was an only child, brought up in a... working class environment. My father worked in the shipyards, my grandfather before him. My mother came from the countryside. My father obviously was from the town. And so that already made a slight schism.

And life is so interesting that you have to fit in somewhere with some collective culture. And I realized that there were sort of different cultures around me by the sound of their voices and their dialect. So there's a country dialect. There was a town dialect. And then when I was four and a half, I went to a school. I was given the opportunity to go to a school where they spoke like Miss Jean Brody.

I love that film. And so I think as a result of that, I never felt that I belonged anywhere, really. I was always observing. I was always looking out of windows, playing alone or with the kids, you know, in the surrounding area. But kind of moving from, you know, the country to the town, to the school. And we do see you, young Anne, as you were. That's right. I'm singing your heart out in one of the photographs.

You went on to study flute and piano at the Royal Academy of Music. But that wasn't to be your destiny. Before the arithmetic, there was the tourists and the catch. What was it like looking back at those photographs? I'm thinking like the burgeoning pop star. You're in a silver jumpsuit at your first record signing just down the road on Oxford Street. That's right. That's right. There's a massive schism, really,

because I tried to be a good girl, good, young, provincial girl, going down to London, 17 and a half. First time I'd ever taken a train journey on my own like that, arriving in King's Cross Station early in the morning with a little piece of paper that was guiding me to Camberwell where there was going to be a student residential hall to stay in. And I shared a room with two other girls' strangers to me. was all very strange. I mean, the first day I went to the academy, I realised that I didn't fit in there. And the excellence that they expected, I was kind of not really at that, you know, coming from a provincial town, I was quite good at playing flute. It gave me my passport down to London with opportunity, perhaps. So I spent the next three years at the academy

just feeling like, what am I going to do? I was pretty lost at sea, actually. It took another couple of years. I mean, I was, I managed to stay in London. I was doing part-time jobs And I didn't, you know, when I went back to Scotland, I always felt like I don't belong here either. I don't know what I'm going to do. When I met Dave, it was a hugely significant point for me. Dave Stewart for those who aren't to wear. Sorry, I should say Dave Stewart. But very few probably not to wear.

But the two of us were searching. I mean, he had two carrier bags, plastic bags to his name. He had issues with substance. let's say, and I was, I had a little harmonium in a bed sit room in Camden Town and I was working as a waitress in vegetarian restaurants, you know, cranks vegetarian and there was a little place up in Hampstead. That's where we met. And he recognised something about it. God, I played the songs I was trying to write. You know, I was working as a waitress and saying, well, I'm not really a waitress, I'm actually a musician,

which a lot of people do. I mean, they say, I'm actually an actor, I'm actually a musician, I'm actually a budding scriptwriter, whatever. And it was a struggle. Seventies in London was a struggle. But you were with the tourists, the arithmetic's many people will know you, as you had that meeting of the minds,

with Dave Stewart. And if I come back to retrospective, the cover has that striking image that so many people will recognise, an androgynous look, the short, cropped red hair, the men's suits. You didn't even use stylus at those times. Where did those looks come from? What was it that appealed to you?

Because I remember seeing it. I think I was about 12 at the time, 12, 13. And I was like, I've never seen anything like this before, but I want a part of it. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. It was an evolution, you know, because when I first started, when I first came down to London, and this is provincial girl, wearing second-hand clothes. And I had sort of longish hair and I wore a tea bar, little tea bar shoes.

And I was a little, I had a little edge, but it definitely grew stronger. And the punk movement came in. And that had a huge effect on all of us. And so things started to evolve. And I think that the way you wear your clothes says a great deal about you, particularly when you're a performance. You know, when you were a performer, you were informing people about yourself, consciously or unconsciously. So it came to that point of eventually, eventually finding a persona that really fitted.

And I think everybody has a male and female aspect to them. Obviously, we have the DNA and we're kind of a variant of that in a way. I mean, it's a big topic, gender. This is way before people were talking about gender fluidity and all the various aspects of interpretations of gender. And we didn't, I mean, gender fluid sounds really kind of, how could I say, like respectful. When you're called gender bender,

it tells you something about how people looked at that at the time. It actually had nothing to do with my sexuality. It was more about taking the male power for myself and reinterpreting it and saying, I am equal to my partner here. And we were a duo with a male and female DNA, you know, Dave and Annie. And I think these things were almost, when you're exploring and experimenting, things come along. And they're new. That was new at that time.

And is it 40 years ago, I think the Sweet Dreams came up? something like that. And after that, it evolved into other things and it was all about performance and exploring and, I mean, tremendous times. Another striking photo kind of on this theme is the cover of Savage. It's you, a woman, dressed as a man, dressed as a woman,

and it challenges and subverts the male gaze. You've said just recently that you had to fight not to be regarded as a piece of meat when you were younger and you talked about the hyper-sexualized look of female singers in the industry. Why do you think so little has changed in all that time? We've just said it's over four decades.

It's a struggle, isn't it? I mean, when I said I didn't want to be regarded as a piece of meat, it means it's hyperbolic, a piece of meat. But I think women, the male gaze in certain ways can reduce women to that. When they find who they are, they might be hypersexualized. That might be the place they land. or they might be indifferent to the male gaze, which I think is probably a safer place to be in a funny sense.

I mean, at that time, if I talk about my own sense of who I was and whether I had confidence or not, it's a mix. I don't think we're all or nothing. I think from my observations and from my inner sense of experience, I come to believe that we are anachronistic, that we can contain aspects of confidence and at the same time low self-esteem. So I've experienced a great deal of things.

I mean, it's a massive topic to talk about and we've only got a short amount of time and there's a lot to pack in there. Men still running the music industry? Women are definitely making huge headroads. There are a tremendous amount of women in the music industry now compared to 40 years ago. And 40 years ago, none, very few.

If there were any women, they were usually personal assistance or worked in PR, you know, secretaries, but definitely not. They were not then in charge. So I think there has been definitely a huge amount of progress. But I have to say the reason why I wear the global feminist T-shirt. Which Annie has on right now, black with white lettering of global feminist. Which has not been suppressed by the BBC. have to say thank you very much. Because it's not that threatening. You see, in a way,

in a funny way, wearing this ought to be a little bit threatening, but it isn't at the moment. There are lots of other things that have become more threatening. We'll go back to that again. Yeah, well, I was just thinking perhaps in other environments, maybe it would be threatening or not, but that is another conversation. But I don't want to let you go, Annie, in our time, before speaking about your activism, which is reflected in the book. There is a photo of you. sitting next to Nelson Mandela, for example, World AIDS Day in 2007. You formed the Sing campaign to support organisations across Africa

and also found the circle for 17 years now to support women and girls confronting gender-based violence, also economic inequality across the world. And just last week, you re-recorded and re-released your track, Why, with new lyrics to raise awareness of the people of Gaza. What is the role of the artist in activism, according to Annie Lance? What a wonderful question. It's a choice.

I mean, I don't think an artist necessarily has to be an activist. I think you have options. This is a calling for me. It's always been there. It's in my blood. It's in my family. I believe in justice. I believe in the foundation of conscience, conscience.

And raising, using your platform to raise awareness. The world is full of horrific injustice. We're not going to really ever make poverty history, but we can damn well try. We can damn well try to make people aware of the global injustices that have been going on for centuries. And so because of my trips to various projects where I've seen women in the most vulnerable situations, giving birth outside with no anaesthetic, for example, we don't have to look very far. and we see that women, pregnant women in war situations and conflict zones, children in conflict zones. The whole picture of the so-called developing world that isn't Western is horrendous.

People are exposed to becoming refugees in their millions. People are exposed to poverty. Women are exposed to poverty to violence. One in three women around the world experiencing sexual or domestic violence in their lifetime. One in three. I think even people understand. that one quote, if you think about it for a little bit, it can create the difference. The change has to be, first of all, in the mind, in the values of the mind. If men don't understand what women are going through, they will simply become defensive and aggressive, and the chauvinism and misogyny will continue. So it's really up to women to demand the change, but also to educate boys and men to bring them into the conversation right from the get-go.

So, I mean, I've got such a lot to say. I know you do. But, and I will just let people know when we speak about activism. I mentioned some of the photographs in the book retrospectors. There's also a great one of you in Russia for Greenpeace at that point. Around the time of Perestroika. Yeah, and you've taken one of the hats of the Russian soldiers, just to give people an idea of this.

journey that we go on with retrospective. Here's it, Tuffy. If you could take just one image away from your book, what would it be? The front cover, really, is, it says it all. The front cover is representative of the whole book. And the book itself is so, oh gosh, it's so eclectic. And I've always believed, I've just a eclectic person. I'm a magpie. I observe things. A highly sensitive, you know, and I found out, and I mentioned it in the book, that I actually am a bit neurodivergent, you know. You were tested for ADHD, which you passed with flying colours. I did. I really am. And it's explained a great deal to me about how my mind works and how other people with ADHD, how their mind works. And it's not an easy

thing to live with, but it also has fantastic superpower. And can and bring brilliance as we have found. I think it does. I think it does bring brilliance. I'm not saying I am brilliant. I am. Thank you very much. I'll take that. I'll take that. But you know what, Nula, for most of my life, I didn't reckon. I aspired to brilliance, let's say, not in the sense of a, yeah, and maybe an achievement,

but through the medium of music, through the medium of language, lyrical presentation, all of that. all my curiosity has brought me to this place today in 2025 and I'm 70. It's so retrospective kind of, it's only a little slice of that journey. It's almost like one of those gattoes. It's a gatto. And I have just given them a little bit of the cream on top. A slice of the cherry. Annie Lennox, thank you so much for coming in.

Come back to us again soon. Retrospective is out now. Now, if you want to get in touch with the program, 84844, is one way to do it. And I do have something else very exciting to tell you about. Here on Woman's Hour, we're launching a brand new series of conversations. The Woman's Hour Guide to Life. It's available from this coming Sunday, the 28th of September, only on BBC Sounds. The Woman's Hour Guide to Life brings you the perfect toolkit for tackling life's challenges and opportunities.

If you feel time poor, maybe you're juggling priorities, or you're simply swamped by conflict. advice on how to move forward well then this is for you whether you're fixing a problem at one of life's crossroads maybe you want to shake things up a bit this is the guide you will need to help you not just survive

but to actually thrive so series one will focus on the juggle across six episodes you're going to hear expert insight and honest conversations on topics like maintaining friendships despite crammed schedules

another pursuing ambition without burnout and how to turn getting older into a superpower and Elinux might have a little on that so for the juggle, the struggle and everything in between this is exactly what you need to help you grow, adapt

and overcome life's curveballs that come at you. Think of it as your companion, your life coach the Woman's Hour Guide to Life. You can listen from this Sunday, you'll find it in the Woman's Hour podcast feed as I mentioned only on BBC Sounds and of course if there are topics

or issues that you think we should be covering Do get in touch 848444 as I mentioned. Social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. Looking forward to hearing from you and what it is that life is throwing at you. Now, it is a year since the death of Alice Webb. She was the first woman in the UK to die

after complications from what is called a liquid Brazilian butt lift. It's a non-surgical procedure where filler is injected into the buttocks to change their shape. You don't need to have any medical qualifications to carry out the procedure and the man who treated Alice is currently on bail after being arrested for manslaughter. Now these kinds of treatments are unregulated.

Alice Webb's family say new legislation is urgently required to stop this happening again. There are plans to change the law. We'll talk about that in just a moment. What experts say is that all these treatments are risky, especially if you don't go to a recognise, qualified practitioner and venue. I want to speak to Sasha Dean,

who last year had a terrible reaction to a liquid Brazilian butt lift. She actually ended up in a coma for five days with sepsis. Sasha, good to have you with us and I'm glad you have recovered. I know you're still suffering some complications. But why did you want this treatment, if I may ask? Hello, good morning.

Um, yeah, for me, I'd, um, I'd always struggled all my life with a, with an asymmetry on my body. Um, on one side, I had a much flatter glute muscle. Um, I'm a, I'm very tall. Um, I'm six foot. So, all tall ladies, we know how difficult it is for us to get clothes anyway. So when I used to try and, uh, get something to fit, um, it never. fitted properly because always on this one side I was much flatter than the other side. So I'd gone to the gym. I'd had a personal trainer for some 15 years. Every personal trainer said, you know, we'll we'll get that muscle firing. We'll we'll get the symmetry. It didn't work. It would not work. I had physiotherapy on it, etc. Nothing worked. I can, you know, I, I, I considered a regular BBL. I considered implants. Yeah, because this seemed as safe, it seemed the better option for me, the less invasive and, yeah, the way to go forward. So you did go ahead with it. When did you realize something was wrong? I mean, seriously wrong. I mean, I'd been on a journey with this.

I'd had it done a few times. I mean, when you're on this train, you can't get off. So I'd had it done a couple of times. And on the third go, um, I did get a slight infection and I took antibiotics and it did clear up. But on, on this go, um, I, I didn't feel well pretty much immediately. I was very, very cold. I came home, but it was cold. It was the 30th of December. So I kind of thought, you know, just get home, wrap myself up and get into bed. But over the sort of the course of the next couple of days, I was kind of getting worse. We weren't too sure if it was this that was causing it or whether I could have had COVID or flu or something, but it was apparent on the early morning of the 2nd of January.

So two or three days later, yeah, I was virtually unconscious. You went to hospital. Yes. You were put in a medically induced coma? Yeah, I mean, I was told initially I had sepsis and then I heard the ambulance drivers mentioning that they felt that I was in septic shock. So we had a very small window to get me to the hospital. They did, I mean, I spoke to my consultants since and he said he literally threw the kitchen sink at me with the drugs. Everything they were doing.

I was in A&E initially and then they transferred me into intensive care for a couple of days. They were battling with me to, you know, try and try and keep. me stable, but it was becoming apparent that my body was just exhausted. So a couple of days later, they put me into a coma because my lungs had collapsed. I'd had a heart attack. My kidneys were failing. I just needed a rest. So serious. Your poor family, what do you remember from that time? It's really weird. When I was in A&E, I could remember a bit. But then when I went into ITU before the coma. I've got no recollection really of anything. Vade memories of friends and family coming. But in the coma itself, it's really bizarre. I can remember my partner had a YouTube

on his phone and I had long hair and he was putting my hair in a rose on the top of my head. He was, you know, doing that. They were playing music to me and I was trying to dance and smile. I could hear my dad telling me to fight yeah it was I can tell I can tell that that brings you

straight back and that you feel justifiably very emotional about that time yeah yeah it's it was very difficult it was very difficult

it was really hard for the brain to process you know time stood still for me so I kind of trying to sort of piece it all together now it's yeah it plays it plays out it causes so much trauma basically because it's very difficult and not just for me

for everyone around me yeah because your husband they're still suffering I know you it was afraid of losing you I want to bring in David Sines from the JCCP the Joint Council for Cosmetic Practitioners which oversees regulation for non-surgical procedures as this one was

regulation currently is voluntary. There is a register of recognised practitioners. David, this treatment, still unregulated. We've just heard from Sasha and what she went through. Yes, absolutely. Good morning to you all. And Sasha, bless you. Well, our thoughts continue with you

and others who've been on similar journeys. And of course, we remember Alice and her family. So this is a significantly profound issue. We've been concerned for many years now about unregulated practice in the non-surgical cosmetic sector. In fact, our concerns were raised in 2014 originally, so this journey is now 13 years to regulation. I chaired a National Review on behalf of the then Department of Health in 2014 regarding standards or the omission of standards and uniform approaches. to non-surgical practice on behalf of Bruce Keough, who then was our chief medical officer.

And we made recommendations in 2015 to bring forward compulsory and mandatory regulation for practitioners. In other words, a register of appropriately qualified and evidenced qualifications for these procedures. That has never been enacted. Why is that? That's 10 years ago.

There will be legislatures. in England, I understand. What is it and will it go far enough compared to what you were recommending? Yes, I think it will go far enough, but it's taken such a long time that you've seen the bumps along the way, which have resulted in significant physical and psychological harm. So what are the current regulations in England? Well, the Department of Health and Social Care advised in August this year that they will be bringing forward proposals to regulate the Brazilian buttlift and invasive procedures of that nature. Now, these procedures are currently considered as non-surgical, as you correctly advised,

but the Royal College of Surgeons and other associations relating to cosmetic surgery consider them to be surgical, cosmetic surgical procedures. In fact, I can advise now that the Royal College of Surgeons has now certified 284 cosmetic surgeons to provide these procedures. So it's not just a matter of the unregulated professions. Our doctors also need to be certified to have the specific skills to provide these specialist procedures. So the current proposal is this, that in 2026, the UK, or say the Westminster government for England, will bring forward legislation to regulate this particular part of the sector. Please note, these are the Brazilian buttlifts. We have other procedures still to be clarified for inclusion in this legislation,

but the plan will be for these procedures to be regulated by the Care Quality Commission in England and to be performed only by designated appropriate healthcare professionals, i.e. appropriately experienced and trained doctors who will also have to perform the procedures from CQC regulated premises. Now that's good news, but we haven't got a date yet for the enactment, but we are advised 2026 following a series of other consultations to get the detail right. Yes, there was, we do have a statement from the department on health and social care. They say the government is taking action

to crack down on cosmetic cowboys and root out dangerous treatments with tough new measures to make sure only qualified healthcare professionals will be able to perform the highest risk procedures. We're working extensively with the cosmetics industry to make sure the measures are tough and protect both the patients and legitimate practitioners. For anyone considering a cosmetic procedure,

please check the provider's qualifications and insurance to ensure. to avoid treatments that appear suspiciously cheap. Back to you, Sasha. I mean, did you have any worries that things could go so horribly wrong? No, quite frankly. I was sold this procedure as safe and that it's sold as non-surgical. So really that wording made a difference to you?

Absolutely, absolutely. Which is interesting, David, isn't it? Sasha, what would you say to someone who is considering a BBL, as it's called, or a Brazilian buttlift today? I just don't do it. I personally would like to see a total ban on this procedure. A total ban? Total ban. I really feel that strongly.

I work closely with Ashton at Safe Face. She has 750 women on her books that have come forward. 50% of those women have had sepsis. And 40% of those women have had to have really extensive corrective surgery to put this right. Just don't trust the, I don't, I don't quite, because we don't know enough about it. We don't know whether it's the filler that's causing it, whether it's a reaction to the body, or whether it is the setting. We just, we just don't know enough about it. Safeface that you mentioned is an awareness campaign that is containing on the same issues as you are.

Sasha as well. David, what about that? A ban? Well, I completely understand the rationale and the reasons for this. There is not sufficient evidence to confirm the actual long-term effects of BBL procedures that Sasha advises. So, for example, the filler itself, will it be absorbed into the body? Can it cause longer-term side effects? So I completely support the fact that there should be a pause on any procedures until such a time as there is a full evidence-based review of the effect. So I am in support of what Sasha is saying, but from a clinical perspective, I will say that further clinical evidence is required. It's certainly an elective or procedure. It isn't actually a medically determined procedure in this particular way of

consideration. Therefore, it does not need to be seen as a priority. But certainly, Sasha, you're correct. And my colleagues that say face are correct. We should take every single precaution to require a full psychological and physical assessment of the patient's suitability for procedure. And it should only be undertaken by a suitably qualified surgeon. David Sines, thank you very much. Also, Sasha Dean, for sharing your story. We did ask to speak to the minister responsible for this area Corrin Smith, but the government provided us with that statement

instead. Thanks to all of you that are getting in touch with us, a lot of reaction to Annie Lennox. David, had a tear flowing while listening to Annie's music, loving what Annie is saying about gender and ignoring the male gays. We need more activists like Annie. What a feminist icon. I was 24th as another when sweet dreams

came out. I immediately cut my hair, dyed it blonde, adopted Annie's style. People used to say I looked like her, I used to feel so proud to be called out like this, not just because of the look, because of the ethos that is her life, passionate, powerful and making a difference to Manny. 844, if you want to get in touch. Now, there were two wins for the lionesses at the Ballandore last night, football's most prestigious awards. England manager, Serena Vigman, named Women's Coach of the Year. England and Chelsea star, Hannah Hampton, won the first ever Yashin trophy for the best women's goalkeeper.

on woman's hour in August Hannah told us doctors had once said that a professional sporting career would be out of the question for her I was born with a squint and I had multiple operations before I was three years old

to straighten them and with my left eyes not completely straight right now it will drift off it's obviously just a lazy eye I got told later in life obviously my parents got told before I did that I have no depth perception

so I can't judge distances as well and I think that's probably what made doctors say that I wouldn't be able to play professional sports. Everyone says, how do you adapt? I just think it's because I don't know anything different. Even when they kept telling my parents that I shouldn't be doing it, they always just kept saying, we're going to let Hannah do whatever makes Hannah happy. And, yeah, I've not stopped.

I think if my parents told me something different, then who knows what I'd be doing, who knows where I'd be. I probably wouldn't be sat here right now. The great Hannah Hampton, and you can catch that full interview on BBC Sounds from Woman's Hour. Okay, have you heard of fubbing? This is a mash-up of phone and snubbing. And you probably don't have to think too hard to remember the last time that you did it or perhaps had it done to you.

Were you out for dinner with your partner having a very lovely intimate conversation when the phone buzzed, conversation stopped, attention diverted. If so, if they looked at that phone, you've been fubbed. Maybe with your kids at bedtime, phone dings. You're watching them brush their teeth and then you turn to answer maybe a work email or a group chat. You were the fubber.

So it is an inevitable feature of modern life fubbing. What impact is it having? Let's get into it. New research shows that couples who regularly fub each other are actually damaging their relationship. We have Claire Hart,

Associate Professor of Psychology at the University of Southampton who did the research. Joining me along with Dr. Caitlin Rager from University College London and the author of Smart Phone Nation Aren't we just, Claire, let me begin with you. So this was 196 people that you spoke to.

What did people say they felt when they were fubbed, snubbed by their partner? So generally we find over the past 10 years, there's been lots of research done on fubbing. And we find that the more that you feel that you're being fubbed, it's been related to lower relationship satisfaction and increased conflict. and it also negatively impacts your own emotional well-being as well. But what we wanted to do with a series of studies was actually look to see whether some people fare better or worse than others.

So we looked to see how our own personalities impact how we react to being fubbed. So, yeah, depending on, so basically not everybody responds to fubbing in the same way is like what I can tell you. So we looked at different types of personalities. We looked at people with insecure attachment styles. to people with varying levels of narcissism and we find different results into how they respond to be involved emotionally

but also then how they respond behaviourally as well. So for example, somebody got in touch when I mentioned this and they said I went on a romantic first trip away with a new partner and every bedtime he would play Candy Crush and claim that was normal. The relationship was short-lived.

Good old Candy Crush. Other games are available. But that kind of gives you, obviously they were on a totally different path when it came to fubbing. Some people retaliate, Claire, how? Yes. So, yeah, retaliation is one of those things where, so if you feel that you'll be in fubbed,

you respond by picking up your own phone and then fubbing back. And we can see this as a sort of a dangerous spiral for the relationship because then, I mean, usually the person who, feels fubbed first. You know, they're feeling ignored or rejected or excluded in that relationship, which then gives you the sense that perhaps you're less important than whatever's going on in the phone, you know, whether that be Candy Crush or something else. And if you feel less valued, then you're going to feel less connected in that relationship as well. Now, if you pick up your phone and then you start thubbing, is this basically a spiral of lack of connection between

you, which is going to have an impact on your overall relationship satisfaction. Leaving the moment, I know for myself, if I do pick up a phone, it takes me a while to get back to where I was previously, so to speak, in the headspace. Gately, let me bring it in you an impact on romantic relationships as Claire has been telling us, but what about if you're doing it

when your kids are around? Yeah, I mean, so there is research to suggest that this impacts different age groups in different ways. So for really young kids, if you are using your phone, lot in front of those children. It can lead to emotional and behavioral issues, and it just weakens that bond between parents and children. For older kids and teenagers, there's evidence to

suggest that it's really bad for their self-esteem, that they feel that they're being ignored, and that has an impact on their sense of self-worth. And so I think we've done a lot, there's been a lot of media attention around teenagers and phones and the problems with teenagers, but I'm thrilled we're talking about this today because often this is starting, these behavioral patterns are starting from a much earlier stage and they're happening in our homes across the country. So how can you break the fubbing cycle as a family? So I think the first thing is to be much more intentional about your usage. We do not have to be passive products that just consume whatever is put in front of us.

we can be active in the choices we make around our devices. Yes, I mean, you gave the analogy where you go to check an email and then you get kind of, then you move on to Instagram and then you just get sucked down. I mean, the question is not actually how many times you used your phone today, but how many times you used your phone to do one thing only to find yourself 10 minutes later doing something completely different. So what can we do about that? one is we can take some precautions to make the device less addictive so we can do gray scaling

which is when go into settings turn the color off turn the color filters off and the color will be washed away from your phone and that will make it less addictive you can even set it up so that when you flip onto your home Wi-Fi it goes to gray scale and then you look you will likely look at your phone less when you're around your kids. We can also just be much more intentional about when we use our phones. What are the spaces that are phone-free? Is that the dinner table? Is that the bedroom? Do we plug our phones in when we take our shoes off and kind of leave them there? So we can carve out those spaces. And finally, we can vocalize. We can say, I need to answer this one email and then I am going to be back focusing on you so that you're

making a contract with the people you love about how long you're going to be on that device for. Claire, I'm like in Caitlin's rules, shall we say. Do you think there should be some in romantic relationships? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I would agree with everything that you've just said. Having phone free zones, I think is important acknowledging an interruption, but then saying I'm going to come back to you. But I think, you know, you can also discuss phone boundaries as well. What do you consider to be acceptable? Or, you know, this is really bugging me today.

So I'm going to tell you about it. You know, can you just put the phone aside? I think, you know, phones, you're right, they're so alluring. And they have so much functionality. And that's not going to change. That's not going to go away. So we need to find ways to tackle this more effectively. And another listener, why is the dislike of fubbing linked to insecurity?

Fubbing is plain rude, just like any other diverting. behavior. Say it like you. See it. Caitlin, back to you. You've said before that you hope our children will look back at our generation as wildly unhealthy and tech enslaved. Will Fubbing contribute to that analysis?

Yeah, I mean, I think more discussions like this are really important so that we bring awareness to these behaviors. Most people are not aware of how addicted they are to their devices. and how their behaviors are impacting those around them.

So I think what we can do is hope that we shift the cultural norm, that it becomes weird to sit at the dinner table and pick up your phone, that it becomes weird to go into a restaurant and put an iPad in front of your kids to shut them up. Those type of behaviors become unacceptable within our society. And I think that that's something that we should strive for, a profound cultural shift around our relationships to our devices. Yeah, I think there was a shift probably during the pandemic

and maybe there's looking for some equilibrium after that. Here's one that both of you might enjoy. My five-year-old daughter tells my partner off for oozing, which means being on the phone when we should be communicating. Claire Hart, thank you for joining us. Also, Dr. Caitlin Rager, good to have your company. Now, tomorrow I'll be speaking to Juliet Stevenson about her role in the new play at the National Theatre

called Land of the Living. Wonderful. Also, New Zealander rugby legend, Ruby Tui, will also be with us. We've a lot to talk about with the women's rugby. August 11th, if you want to catch the full Hannah Hampton interview. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4, the fort. Royal Marines and Army pilots speaking for the first time. We felt there were Taliban fighters coming through this. complex called Jugram Ford.

It was the most intense fire fire I've ever been involved in. The word gets around that Fordy is missing. The Apache pilot said to me, you just need four volunteers. We secure them to the Apache wings and we'll go back and get Lance Corporal Ford. Get me four Marines and I will take them in and we'll get that boy home. Listen to the fort on BBC Sounds. Thank you.