Woman's Hour - Annie Lord, Menovests, Roe v Wade, The Fellowship

Episode Date: June 30, 2022

How do you heal and get through a break up? Annie Lord is Vogue’s dating columnist. She joins Emma Barnett to talk about her debut book, Notes on Heartbreak. A candid exploration of the best and worst of love, she talks about nursing a broken heart and her own attempts to move on in the current dating climate; from disastrous rebound sex to sending ill-advised nudes, stalking your ex’s new girlfriend and the sharp indignity of being ghosted.The overturning by the US Supreme Court of the landmark Roe v Wade ruling has prompted many of you to get in touch to share your reactions and experiences. One listener, Nicola, wanted to tell us about her mum - who died after having a legal termination that should have been safe, in 1968. Closer to home there's been a high-level summit about buffer zones at abortion clinics. Emma speaks to Scotland's Green MSP, Gillian Mackay, who has drawn up a members bill which aims to introduce protest-free buffer zones around clinics. And what does the law in the UK say about a woman’s right to an abortion? We hear from Professor Fiona De Londras, the Chair of Global Legal Studies at Birmingham Law School. The senior backbench Conservative MP Sir Iain Duncan Smith and some of his fellow MPs were given the opportunity this week to find out first hand exactly how uncomfortable a menopausal hot flush can be, especially when you’re in the workplace. As part of an event raising awareness around the country’s shortage of HRT, Sir Iain and some his colleagues from both sides of the House of Commons, tried out a so-called MenoVest, a special piece of clothing fitted with heat pads, to simulate the extreme discomfort which many menopausal women have to live with. Emma speaks to Sir Iain Duncan Smith and Lesley Salem, who had the idea to create the vest. The Fellowship is a play which looks at the children of the Windrush generation and the relationship between Marcia and Dawn, two black sisters struggling to take care of their dying mother whilst juggling their turbulent personal lives. Emma speaks to Director Paulette Randall and actor Suzette Llewellyn, who plays Marcia.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. On today's programme, we will continue to monitor the reaction to the overturning of Roe v Wade in America, the constitutional right to abortion. But look at it from the point of view of what's going on in the UK, closer to home. And we will also hear from one of you, our listeners who contacted the programme

with a very personal story she's never told on this sort of public platform before about her mother. All that to come. And there'll be a take on Boris Johnson's comments that the invasion of Ukraine was an example of toxic masculinity that would never have happened if Putin was a woman. Plus, Vogue's agony aunt is joining us today with some crucial advice about breakups. But Sir Ian Duncan Smith, the former leader of the Conservative Party, now senior backbencher, is also on the programme today. Having tried out something called a menno vest in Westminster. This is a vest which heats up quickly that men put on. I mean, women can try them on as well, but men are putting on to empathise with women

going through the menopause in the workplace. He's going to describe, you'll hear, how it made him feel. It was actually quite different to how he thought and what insight it's given him that perhaps he didn't have before. And I wanted to ask you, if you are going through menopause at the moment, if you are presenting with symptoms, or if you have already been through it, of course, you could imagine how it might be. But if you had the experience or remember the experience, what could the men in your life, the ones that you're close to personally,

professionally, people you worked with, what could they have done? Maybe one specific thing to help you at that time. What could it have been? We talk about empathy, we talk about men and women working together. This is an example of using technology to try and help give some experience to boost empathy, or certainly sympathy, we should say but if you think back or think now as to what those things could be i'd be very interested to hear 84844 text will be charged your standard message rate that's the number you need to text your view or the one thing to on social media we're at bbc woman's hour or email me through the woman's hour website and i should say of course you may work with some women who could do with boosting their sympathy levels, their empathy levels. And perhaps this question extends to them as well.

But we are talking specifically to a man today, a man who had not thought about menopause a great deal, even though, as you'll hear in the interview, because I did do it just before I came on air. He looks back now at his mother's experience and thinks slightly differently. He has now sported this vest in Westminster and got a whole different viewpoint. Let me know your messages in response to the one thing that the men in your life could be doing or could have done to have helped you during menopause. Now the landmark decision by the US Supreme Court to overturn Roe v Wade, the constitutional right to abortion nationwide, is expected to lead to abortion bans in roughly half of US states. That's working itself out, if you like, at the moment going through the courts.

Nine already had moved immediately to ban abortion. That decision nearly a week ago is now driving certain politicians and lawyers on this side of the pond to look at the UK's Abortion Act and, in some instances, call for changes. It has also reignited debate in certain quarters here in the UK. Take this, for example. In the House of Commons on Tuesday, some MPs gave their thoughts. Although many were deeply concerned by what has happened in the US, the Conservative backbench MP, Danny Kruger, had this to say. Mr Speaker, I recognise the degree of distress and concern felt by many members in the House

on the Supreme Court's decision. And the fact is I probably disagree with most members who've spoken so far about this question. They think that women have an absolute right to bodily autonomy in this matter, whereas I think in the case of abortion, that right is qualified by the fact that another body is involved. But we can disagree on that question. That's ond rwy'n credu, mewn ymwneud â chyflog, mae'r hawliau hynny wedi'u cyflawni gan y ffaith bod cyrff arall yn ymwneud â hynny. Ond gallwn ni ddysgwyl am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Mae hynny'n ei bwysig. Rydyn ni'n ddysgwyl am y cwestiwn hwnnw, ac rwy'n gofyn i aelodau sy'n ceisio siarad â mi am y peth, ac mae'r pwnc hyn yn bwnc arferol ar gyfer debat gwleidyddol. Fy mwyafrwydd i'r ben gyntaf yw, dydw i ddim yn deall pam rydyn ni'n llythro yn y I don't understand why we are lecturing the United States on a judgment to return the power of decision over this political question to the states, to democratic decision makers, rather. One about his view around the rules and laws and the rights and wrongs of abortion.

But the second part about who should be making those rules in the first place. Should it have been constitutional? Should it be state by state? Yesterday during Prime Minister's questions, the Justice Secretary and Deputy Prime Minister Dominic Raab, standing in for Boris Johnson, said the legality of abortion in the UK was settled.

And this was when he was asked by Labour to support an amendment on the issue to his proposed Bill of Rights. To understand the law here in the UK and potential proposed changes and why they may or may not be necessary, I'm joined by Professor Fiona de Londres, who is the Chair of Global Legal Studies at Birmingham Law School. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning.

What does UK law tell us about rights to an abortion as it's written now? So under the Abortion Act of 1967, which is what applies through most of the UK, there is no right to abortion. Instead, abortion is a crime. And what the Act does is it outlines the situations in which somebody may avail of abortion and provide abortion without committing a criminal offence. In Northern Ireland, it's a little bit different. Abortion has been decriminalised in recent years. But in fact, there is almost no access to abortion in Northern Ireland because the services have not been commissioned. And that's something that is ongoing at present.

So the law is more up to date, but the provision is not in the sense of, we talked about this actually very recently to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Brandon Lewis, who was at that point when we were talking in Northern Ireland trying to sort this out amongst other things. Does it matter that the law is written in that way, that it hasn't been updated in terms of practice? So I think it does. You know, in terms of practice, the first thing to say is that an act like the Abortion Act imposes lots of burdensome procedural requirements on doctors in order to prove that they're not committing a crime. So two doctors having to certify, for example, that this level of risk that is required by the law to access abortion up to 24 weeks exists, even though it always exists because

of the way that the law is written. It also, I think, matters for people who are seeking abortion in at least two ways. The first way is that when abortion is criminalised, that means abortion is exceptionalised and stigmatised. In other words, it is not treated within the law as an ordinary part of healthcare, which of course is what it is. And the second way it matters is that if people, for whatever reason, are not able to access abortion through formal legal systems, maybe they are living in situations of coercive control and not being allowed to access a doctor, or they live remotely where there are no providers. If they make the decision to self-manage abortion with pills that they source unlawfully, even though they're safe, they are committing a serious crime.

And they may have some reluctance, for example, in seeking post-abortion care, even though they're not likely to be reported or anything unlike they were in Northern Ireland previously. So, you know, there are practical reasons and then there are symbolic and I guess normative reasons why this very old fashioned way of regulating abortion is not rights based or doesn't maximise health outcomes. There has been prior to the Roe v. Wade decision, the overturning of it, there had been a campaign to update it because of the reasons that you outlined, which hadn't gathered much steam in some ways. I mean, I knew about it, we've reported on it, but it wasn't sort of headline news. Perhaps it will be now in light of this because people are considering the fragility and the security, or they want to debate such laws, as we heard from Danny Kruger there. I mean, interestingly, a message has come in from Kat while we're talking to say, abortion should not be a political conversation nor one for

lawmakers. It's between a woman and her healthcare professionals. That's one view, there will be others. Something slightly separate, which I wanted to clarify with you, if I may, is this idea that there, for instance, from the Labour MP Stella Creasy, that there needs to be an amendment to the government's forthcoming Bill of Rights. So Dominic Raab said the government wouldn't be backing the amendment. Can you explain what that amendment would mean on top of any potential changes or no changes to the Act? Yeah, so my understanding of what Stella Creasy is proposing is that there would be an amendment to the Bill of Rights which establishes and makes clear

that access to abortion is a right. So at the moment, it's not a right in most of the United Kingdom. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Welcome to the programme.

On today's programme, we will continue to monitor the reaction to the overturning of Roe v Wade in America, the constitutional right to abortion. But look at it from the point of view of what's going on in the UK, closer to home. And we will also hear from one of you, our listeners who contacted the programme with a very personal story she's never told on this sort of public platform before about her mother. All that to come. And there'll be a take on Boris Johnson's comments that the invasion of Ukraine was an example of toxic masculinity that would never have happened if Putin was a woman. Plus, Vogue's agony aunt is joining us today with some crucial advice about breakups. But Sir Ian Duncan Smith, the former leader of the Conservative Party, now senior backbencher, is also on the programme today, having tried out something called a menno vest in Westminster. This is a vest which heats up quickly that men put on. I mean, women can try them on as well, but men are putting on to empathise with women going through the menopause in the workplace. He's going to describe, you'll hear, how it made him feel. It was actually quite different to how he thought and what insight it's given him that perhaps he

didn't have before. And I wanted to ask you, if you are going through menopause at the moment, if you are presenting with symptoms or if you have already been through it of course you could imagine how it might be but if you had the experience or remember the experience what could the men in your life the ones that you're close to personally professionally people you worked with what could they have done maybe one specific thing to help you at that time what what could it have been we talk about, we talk about men and women working together. This is an example of using technology to try and help give some experience to boost empathy, or certainly sympathy, we should say. But if you think back or think now as to what those things could be, I'd be very interested to hear. 84844, text will be charged to your standard

message rate. That's the number you need to text your view or the one thing to. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website. And I should say, of course, you may work with some women who could do with boosting their sympathy levels, their empathy levels. And perhaps this question extends to them as well. But we are talking specifically to a man today, a man who had not thought about menopause a great deal, even though, as you'll hear in the interview, because I did do it just before I came on air, he looks back now at his mother's experience and thinks slightly differently. He has now sported this vest in Westminster and got a whole different viewpoint. Let me know your messages in response to the one thing that the men in your life could be doing or could have done to have helped you during menopause. Now,

the landmark decision by the US Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade, the constitutional right to abortion nationwide, is expected to lead to abortion bans in roughly half of US states. That's working itself out, if you like, at the moment going through the courts. Nine already had moved immediately to ban abortion. That decision nearly a week ago is now driving certain politicians and lawyers on this side of the pond to look at the UK's Abortion Act and in some instances call for changes. It has also reignited debates in certain quarters here in the UK. Take this this for example. In the House of Commons on Tuesday, some MPs gave their thoughts. Although many were deeply concerned by what has happened in the US, the Conservative backbench MP Danny Kruger had this to say.

Mr Speaker, I recognise the degree of distress and concern felt by many members in the House on the Supreme Court's decision. And the fact is I probably disagree with most members who've yng Nghymru ar ddewis y Cwrs Gwledig. Mae'r ffaith bod gen i'n deall y rhan fwyaf o'r rhan fwyaf o'r rhan yma, question. That's the purpose. We disagree on that question. And I offer to members who are trying to talk me down that this is a proper topic for political debate. And my point to the front bench is I don't understand why we are lecturing the United States on a judgment to return the power of decision over this political question to the states, to democratic decision makers, rather than leaving it in the hands of the courts. So two points there from backbench MP Danny Kruger, who's actually very close to Boris Johnson,

former speechwriter to David Cameron, an advisor. Two points there, one about his view around the rules and laws and the rights and wrongs of abortion, but the second part about who should be making those rules in the first place. Should it have been constitutional? Should it be state by state? Yesterday, during Prime Minister's questions, the Justice Secretary and Deputy Prime Minister Dominic Raab, standing in for Boris Johnson, said the legality of abortion in the UK was settled. And this was when he was asked by Labour to support an amendment on the issue to his proposed Bill of Rights. To understand the

law here in the UK and potential proposed changes and why they may or may not be necessary, I'm joined by Professor Fiona de Londres, who is the Chair of Global Legal Studies at Birmingham Law School. Good morning. Good morning. What does UK law tell us about rights to an abortion as it's written now? So under the Abortion Act of 1967, which is what applies through most of the UK, there is no right to abortion.

Instead, abortion is a crime. And what the Act does is it outlines the situations in which somebody may avail of abortion and provide abortion without committing a criminal offence. In Northern Ireland, it's a little bit different. Abortion has been decriminalised in recent years. But in fact, there is almost no access to abortion in Northern Ireland because the services have not been commissioned. And that's something that is ongoing at present. So the law is more up to date but the provision is not in the sense of we we talked about this actually very recently to the secretary of state for northern ireland brandon lewis who was at that point when we were

talking in northern ireland trying to sort this out amongst other things does it matter that the law is written in that way that it hasn't been updated in terms of practice? So I think it does. You know, in terms of practice, the first thing to say is that an act like the Abortion Act imposes lots of burdensome procedural requirements on doctors in order to prove that they're not committing a crime. So two doctors having to certify, for example, that this level of risk that is required by the law to access abortion up to 24 weeks exists, even though it always exists because of the way that the law is written. It also, I think, matters for people who are seeking abortion in at least two ways. The first way is that when abortion is criminalised, that means abortion is exceptionalised and stigmatised. In other words, it is not treated within the law as an ordinary part of healthcare, which of course is what it is. And the second way it matters is that if people, for whatever reason, are not able to access abortion through formal legal systems. Maybe they are living in situations of

coercive control and not being allowed to access a doctor or they live remotely where there are no providers. If they make the decision to self-manage abortion with pills that they source unlawfully, even though they're safe, they are committing a serious crime and they may have some reluctance, for example, in seeking post-abortion care, even though they're not likely to be reported or anything unlike they were in Northern Ireland previously. So, you know, there are practical reasons and then there are symbolic and I guess normative reasons why this very old fashioned way of regulating abortion is not rights based or doesn't maximise health outcomes. There has been prior to the Roe v. Wade decision, the overturning of it, there had been a campaign to update it because of the reasons that you outlined, which hadn't gathered much steam in some ways.

I mean, I knew about it. We've reported on it, but it wasn't sort of headline news. Perhaps it will be now in light of this because people are considering the fragility and the security, or they want to debate such laws, as we heard from Danny Kruger there. I mean, interestingly, a message has come in from Kat while we're talking to say, abortion should not be a political conversation, nor one for lawmakers. It's between a woman and her healthcare professionals. That's one view, there will be others. Something slightly separate, which I wanted to clarify with you, if I may, is this idea that there, for instance, from the Labour MP Stella Creasy, that there needs to be an amendment to the government's forthcoming Bill of Rights. So Dominic Raab said the government wouldn't be backing the amendment. Can you explain what that amendment would mean on top of any potential changes or no changes to the Act?

Yes. So my understanding of what Stella Creasy is proposing is that there would be an amendment to the Bill of Rights, which establishes and makes clear that access to abortion is a right. So at the moment, it's not a right in most of the United Kingdom. What difference would it make to say abortion is a right? Well, first of all, it would potentially put a limit on any future attempts to roll back on abortion access in the United Kingdom. So, you know, there have been attempts to reduce the gestational age limit and to impose particular consent requirements and so on. So, you know, all change to abortion law is not necessarily progressive. So one idea is that a right might put some limits or make it difficult to regress on that. And the other is that if a case were to come before a court about an attempt to access abortion, that the court would see access to abortion as a right

and start from that perspective. So I think that that is part of the motivation here. Yes, and thank you for explaining that. But I wonder, do you agree with Dominic Raab when he says, I mean, he has a legal background, he's the Justice Secretary, it could mean abortion if this change was made, if this amendment came in, could end up being litigated in the courts if it was in this bill. Is that your understanding?

I mean, abortion can be litigated in the courts already. Women in Northern Ireland and pregnant people in Northern Ireland secured their change largely through litigation, as well as political pressure in UK courts. In addition, you could challenge the lawfulness of the Abortion Act already by saying that it wasn't sufficient to give effect to rights. But would this add to it, do you think? I don't think it would necessarily add to or detract from it. It would... Then is it pointless? Is it just... I mean, is someone be saying this is potential posturing from MPs, Labour MPs in this country, when our rights or our connection to access to such parts of health care, as you describe it, is not under threat? So I don't think it would be pointless per se, because I think it is important to try to change the orientation of a conversation about abortion from one that is about regulating something that's generally not permitted. So regulating it as an exception to acknowledging it as something that women have a right to access and thus creating a system around it that is oriented towards securing that access.

So ultimately, with your knowledge of law, you would support both a rewrite of the Act from 67 of the Abortion Act and this amendment? So I think I would support any kind of legislative change that made access to abortion more secure and put it on a rights-based footing. Those are two potential avenues towards doing that, either separately or collectively. We will see how it pans out with our lawmakers. Professor Fiona De Londras, Chair of Global Legal Studies at Birmingham Law School.

That was very helpful indeed. Thank you. Well, to keep going with reactions to the overturning of Roe v. Wade closer to home, there's one from doctors. The British Medical Association has voted to lobby the UK government on the issue of granting American women who cannot access abortion services for free, granting them for free in the UK. 57% of doctors voted in favour, 36% against, 7% abstained. A fact here, just a

share, of the 80,000 women who do receive abortions from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service each year, 4,000 are international patients. But in Scotland, another element that has been on the table, Green MSP Gillian Mackay has drawn up a members bill which aims to introduce protest-free buffer zones, you may have heard that phrase before, there are three in England, around abortion clinics. And just this week at a summit, the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon gave the Scottish government's backing to the bill. She said, and I quote, gatherings of this kind, these sorts of protests, create additional stress for anyone using these facilities for any purpose and for those who work in them.

But for women accessing abortion services, the upset, distress and fear that they can cause can be profound. Well, a sexual health clinic in Glasgow regularly has people outside who do not agree with abortion, holding placards, some with religious pictures and praying. Just to give you a sense of this, Gillian Mackay joins me now from her office. Gillian, good morning. Good morning. What are you trying to achieve? As I say, we've seen this in three places in England.

What I'm trying to achieve is to ensure that people can access healthcare without intimidation and harassment, like we're seeing in multiple places across Scotland over the course of a year. It's not acceptable to me that people are having to run this gauntlet when accessing healthcare and we need to ensure that as we go forward people don't have to run this gauntlet in the future. And the buffer zones will work, what are the details on that? So what we're hoping to do is introduce a minimum 150 meter buffer zone that's to ensure that no matter where you are in scotland you know what to expect when

you come to um a health care setting we're also exploring with um cosla and local authorities whether there are some sites that may need a variation in this to ensure that we're not merely displacing people to the nearest bus stop which won't protect people as they as they attempt to get to their hospital appointments but we need to take into into account the the different orientations and things of different sites but ultimately it's to ensure that people and women know when they're accessing these services, what to expect when they get there. I understand the bill has cross-party support. Nicola Sturgeon has also said there are legal complexities about establishing such buffer zones. And regardless of where you are on this topic, some are uncomfortable about protests being limited in any way when it comes to free speech what do you say

to those who have those concerns they may not be anti-abortion they may not be moved to go outside such clinics but they feel concerned about this setting a precedent in other areas of life I absolutely recognize that this is this is a step that some people may feel uncomfortable with. But it's not about attempting to pit rights against each other. There is a balance to be found. It's where it is appropriate to protest. And that's what we're seeking to find the balance in. We have no doubt that this will be challenged.

A similar bill introduced by my green colleague in Northern Ireland, Claire Bailey, is being challenged in the Supreme Court. So we're anxiously awaiting the result of that. But what we are trying to do, and I'm very grateful to the First Minister, is ensure that this is robust and it will withstand any legal challenge to make sure that we're not simply ending up with a can getting kicked down the road. Has the overturning of Roe v Wade made this more urgent do you feel? Is there a concern about protests outside abortion clinics well where you are in Scotland but across the UK? I think there's certainly an added urgency to it over Over the weekend since Roe v Wade, we've seen the number of responses to my consultation double.

So it certainly moved it forward in some people's minds, I think. I think there's also that focus on not merely standing still here in Scotland, but across the UK as well. And that what we need to do here is enhance rights rather than sitting and waiting for things to happen. We've seen that, as you were discussing earlier in the Commons, and the First Minister on Monday was talking about the issue of decriminalisation as well and whether we need to look at that here in Scotland too. So I think the focus on abortion rights overall is really, and the willingness to do something here is important and there is definitely a renewed focus on buffer zones and the potential for the overturning of Roe versus Wade to embolden voices in other parts of the world.

Do you think that will happen in the UK? I have a concern that it will. We're seeing protests from groups like 40 Days for Life that were started in the US happening here. And I do certainly have a concern that it is going to increase the frequency and potentially some of the tactics that we've seen escalate, particularly around the clinic at Sandiford in Glasgow,

where we've seen amplification and body cameras being worn and things like that. So, yes, it's definitely a concern for me. Just to say that particular group you've named are not here to answer for themselves. Neither is the clinic that you've also named there in the sense of, I don't have the specifics, but I did ask you about your concerns and what they're based on. So I understand the need to name that. Of course, others would say if they go and stand outside such clinics that they are also offering practical help to women. That would be their take on it. You're trying to push forward with buffer zones. We'll see where you get to politically as well,

where the will is, legally, how it can happen, if it can happen, whether it will happen, whether it should happen. Gillian Mackay, thank you very much. A Green MSP working in Scotland there. I have to say, messages coming through about all sorts of things we've already touched on. And one should say, the time limit for an abortion

needs to be brought down from 24 weeks to 12 weeks in the uk if we're talking about the uk now in response to the overturning of roe v wade at 24 weeks uh this is this is what needs to be looked at what about medical professionals who have to perform abortions it upsets my brother when he was a junior doctor and he said some women use abortion as a form of contraception. Just my opinion, adoption is always an option. So the messages continue. 84844 is the number you need. Now, the former Conservative Party leader, now senior backbencher Sir Ian Duncan Smith

and some of his fellow MPs from all political parties were given the opportunity this week to find out firsthand exactly how uncomfortable a menopause or hot flush can be, especially when you're in the workplace. It was an event raising awareness around the country's shortage of HRT, open to MPs on all sides of the House, organised by the Labour MP, Carolyn Harris, who is in charge of the all-party parliamentary group on menopause. Sir Ian tried out something called a menovest, which I mentioned at the start of the programme, a special piece of clothing fitted with heat pads to simulate the extreme

discomfort which many menopausal women have to live with. And you'll hear from him in a moment. And I have to say, when I mentioned this, a few messages came in, a few saying you were in favour of this and it's important for empathy. But also one that I just wanted to read here, which says, sounds like men such as Ian need to experience something themselves before they can empathise. Let's not normalise this. Another one saying, how about just listening to women? Well, that's, of course, also a very good point and part of this. But you will hear from him in a moment on what that experience was like.

First, I'm joined by Leslie Salem, who set up her own company Over the Bloody Moon to provide organisations with training and resources to help their staff understand what it's like to go through the menopause. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me on the show. What do you make of that pushback around, you don't need to experience something to be able to have sympathy? Why should we encourage this just listen to women yeah i mean it's something actually myself you know um i we debated um and it's it's a valid point um not everybody can empathize without experiencing um but uh it isn't the vest isn't designed just to say that people need to go through something that need to experience pain in order to empathize.

It's a talking point. And, you know, so I think that's important. And the other point to make is that actually there were 48 symptoms. So the Menno vest has been designed to talk about the impact of hot flushes and other associated symptoms. So it's really to open up conversation and to hear as well from partners and other people that are not transitioning through menopause, the impact that that has for them as well. Yes. What was it like watching? Mainly, I understand, men trying this out. Women have either gone through it or they've got it to come

if they will have that symptom. But what was it like watching it? It was fascinating, Emma. I think there was a little resistance from a few and sort of slight cynicism. And I think they were really shocked and surprised at the intensity of the hot flushes that they were experiencing, which, by the way, had been got we got the input from people who were experiencing severe flushes. So there are plenty of people which will get them, you know, more moderately. And I think for them, they realized many of them were talking about the distraction and in the workplace, how that must be quite debilitating.

But I tell you what was really interesting was the banter that immediately were happening when multiple men were wearing it. I could just see that if men had menopause, there would be a league table and they'd be saying, you know, how many symptoms, you know, have you got? Because I've got more and mine's much worse. And actually, you know, we do a lot of corporate education and training. And we just collaborated with Kantar on a very comprehensive study on menopause with over a thousand women. And we found that only 21 percent of women are disclosing and sharing what's going on for them in the workplace. Yes, so they're not having that ability to compete. No, they're not.

And I think there's a difference between the way that men and women deal with challenges. And yet we know women talk to each other typically more, you know, and open up. What you've said there, Leslie, we have to leave it there with you. I don't want to hear, we'll talk again, I'm sure, but I want to hear also what Ian

says. But there is that amazing Gloria Steinem essay in the 70s that talked about if men had periods and they'd be standing on the street corners saying, I'm a three pad kind of guy. I fill mine up. And there would be sort of NASA invented tampons and sanitary towels.

So it still stands the test of time, that essay. I highly recommend it. Leslie Salem, Over the Bloody Moon is the company that you have created. Thank you very much indeed. Erica, I'll try and read your message out in full if I can, because it refers to something I get to a bit later with Ian Duncan Smith. Sir Ian Duncan Smith in my interview, you've brought up the issue of winking in the Commons.

We do get to that. And you view it as also as part of a kind of sexist, macho environment in the Commons. So I'll come to your message shortly but just to say erica you were concerned i may or may not bring it up i have but first of all i asked ian duncan smith why he put on a meno vest well i suppose there are two reasons really one is carolyn harris and the other one is carolyn harris carolyn and i become uh good friends We campaigned together on a number of issues, gambling and various other things that she's very committed to.

She's a wonderful force of nature, really. A very good example, by the way, of why Parliament works and people don't understand that, which is she's in Labour, I'm in the Conservatives, and we've campaigned together to change things. And that's really how things get done. And I also have two daughters. So when she came to talk to me about it and said,

would you come and do this? Because, you know, we want to draw attention to the fact that people don't really think about the problems that women face during the menopause. And I said, yeah, absolutely. And that's how it came about. And the more she talked about it, the more I realized, actually, that like so many other men, we kind of just dodge past it and dismiss it

and just don't really want to talk about it. So I thought it was a very good example of what we should do to try and draw attention to it. And you put this vest on, and I wonder how did it make you feel? Could you describe the sensation? Well, it was kind of peculiar, really. In a way, I expected it. My expectation

was that it would be instantaneously boiling hot. And I was mentally prepared for that, as you are typically kind of competitive man, I suppose. I'm going to be able to get through this. But actually didn't, it didn't, it completely undid me because, first of all i couldn't feel anything and then i i felt my back getting hot nowhere not at all what i expected then it faded away then suddenly somewhere else my stomach got hot and i suddenly realized actually uh i was my body then started to react to the to the heat moments and uh it was only after these that suddenly you started to feel really hot and and sticky and it was quite peculiar these that suddenly you started to feel really hot and sticky. And it was quite peculiar, really, not at all what I'd expected. But I can understand,

well, I certainly came to understand that short moment that how difficult it must be to try and collect your thoughts if this is happening to you at the same time. Yes, and try and go about your business. And I think, you know, of course, it's simulation. It's the idea of it doesn't obviously come with any of the hormones or any of the other feelings that go alongside that. But I wonder, by having that experience, do you think you will do anything different as a result of it or think about menopause differently? Yeah, I think if this process happened regularly to men, then, of course, it would be a high priority. It would be a national emergency, Ian. Yeah, it would be a priority.

I know men are always accused quite rightly, I suppose, of having a cold and calling it a flu and panicking when health comes. But the truth is we don't really think about it. And it did come home to me that actually we sometimes make a joke about it, really, which is, you know, oh, well, she's menopausal or something and then dismiss behavior as though there's no other reason to dig into that. So what I think it does, it makes you suddenly pause and think, well, actually, if women go through this and they're trying to work, it must lessen their capability, productivity, their abilities at times. And that can't be good economically for us because it means the input, therefore, is less. And secondly, you know, trying to juggle all these different things together, we need to be much more understanding about it and in office and also at home.

And come to terms with the fact that these are dramatic changes that are taking place and they don't happen to men, but we should be sympathetic about it and at least understand it better rather than just constantly dismiss it, really. Yes, I mean, for some women, of course, the capabilities aren't limited or even if they are, that they're able to try and find a workaround. Of course, for others, if they've found a treatment plan that can help, namely for some women, HRT, that can help. Of course, I know your government's had to appoint an HRT SAR to try and deal with the fact there's been shortages during this time, which is,

of course, a big focus of Carolyn Harris and her colleagues' work. Yeah, very much so. So we hope to welcome that SAR to the programme soon. And I don't know, you mentioned your daughters, but are there women in your life who you've seen go through the menopause? Well, I have. And funnily enough, my mother, I do recall now looking back on it. And of course, in those days, nobody talked about it at all and the difficulties she had.

And I think just women, you know, and I was trying to run through my head about times when we could have been a lot more sensitive to this and we weren't. And I just recall some sometimes slightly erratic behavior, difficulties, but people just kind of glossed over it, really. And I think that's really the key. You're quite right that lots and lots of people cope, get on with their lives and don't make a fuss about it. But I think it's it's it's important to understand that there are times when these things just don't work. And what Carolyn made clear to me and to the other men that came in to do this was that focusing on how you can make available treatments that help people get through the process,

women get through this, is also important. And that was the reason why she was doing it, to try and say, look, when we talk about this and its importance, it's helpful that you understand what we mean by this. And as you say, you're quite right, it's only one little element of it, but it was enough, I think, gosh. No, I remember interviewing a man who had worn a machine which simulated periods.

So he had a whole other experience of trying to handle the logistics of that, never mind the hormones. But I won't draw you on that, Serena Duncan-Smith. You haven't done that yet. Can I just ask you about just another element, if I may, because I know this is something that some of our listeners will have picked up on. It is regarding women. The Prime Minister, in some of his comments yesterday,

was talking, of course course on our listeners minds about the invasion of Ukraine and the latest on that and our investment and support the military support for Ukraine now at 1.3 billion from the UK but he said the invasion of Ukraine was an example of toxic masculinity that would never have happened if Putin was a woman I don't know if you saw those comments but I don't you didn't no those comments. But I... You didn't. No, I didn't. But I'm interested in what he said. Just to give you the full quote, and I wonder if there was a reflection from you. The Prime Minister said,

if Putin was a woman, which he obviously isn't, but if he were, I really don't think he would have embarked on a crazy macho war of invasion and violence in the way that he has. He called for more women leaders as part of these comments to a broadcaster and he said if you want a perfect example of toxic masculinity, it is what he's doing in Ukraine.

What do you make of that, Ian Duncan-Smith? Well, it's certainly food for thought in the sense that would a, is there such a thing as a woman like, somebody like Putin that is demionic and violent and hell-bent on war and invasion and dominance. And I think he has a point, certainly has a point in that regard. But I think the important thing is, the key to all of this, is the process of pluralistic democracy,

the rule of law, and human rights. And of course, that's the vital bit that would have stopped any kind of process like the war taking place in Ukraine. People have to behave reasonably in international relations and settle their disputes without war. So, yeah, he is a peculiar man because, you know, I know of no leader that parades around on horseback stripped to the waist and talks about his judo or whatever he does and just portrays his overt masculinity in Russia. And I think there's a big difference here. I think any leader in the West trying to portray themselves like this would be laughed out of court. But peculiarly, Russia, it's seen as a sign of strong leadership, which I find ridiculous, really. I mean, the strongest leader I've ever known was Margaret Thatcher, who was clear and determined, and it was her intellect and her determination that garnered people to do what she wanted to do, rather than displays of violence, etc., as you see with Putin. Although some would also make the point about Margaret Thatcher, you know, was content with war as a mechanism and as a lever, if necessary, in power.

Hence why perhaps they don't necessarily quite agree with everything that the Prime Minister is talking about there. But the other points about masculinity and how Putin presents himself are very different indeed. Just a final thought from you, Ian Duncan-Smith, if I may. Winking in the Commons. Are you aware there was some winking going on in the Commons yesterday by Dominic Raab, standing in for the Prime Minister at PMQs. Have you seen that story? I saw it. I didn't see it myself, but I was, I didn't winking. I have no idea. Just to

fill you in, certainly as the story goes, it was thought that him standing across from Angela Rayner, as both leaders were deputised for, it was thought that he was winking at her, but the advisors to Dominic Raab, those who speak for him, say that he was winking at her, but the advisers to Dominic Raab, those who speak for him, say he was actually winking to Ian Murray,

the shadow Scotland secretary to the side of Angela Rayner, who'd made a comment. But it was certainly quite striking. And I was interested, our BBC parliamentary colleagues this morning were trying to figure out if winking was allowed in the Commons or not.

And I don't know. It's a good point. I suppose it, I watched the exchange and it was kind of different from the normal exchange of the Prime Minister and Keir Starmer. It was quite lively. Actually, it was quite watchable, I have to tell you, because Angela Rayner came back strongly.

I thought Dominic Raab was good. It was like a jousting match between two people who were enjoying themselves, strangely enough, whilst they were doing it. And I thought that made it for once a little bit more interesting than sometimes it is, where it just becomes a da'at tribe. I thought some of his jests back at her about the Keir Starmer and hers back to him worked quite well,

if you think of it as a kind of theatre. It was a more interesting theatre than sometimes people see it as. With a wink to the stage left, as it were. Well, who knows who he was winking at, but she is capable of doing the same, I think. Yes, more than. Ian Duncan Smith, sorry, Ian Duncan Smith. Thank you very much for coming on the programme. My pleasure.

And to Erica's point about winking, if we are to believe that Dominic Raab was not winking at Angela Rayner and some other male MP instead, that is still boys' club sexist mentality, Erica believes. Of them thinking women are just playing at being in politics and not actually able or deserving to be on an equal footing in reality, I hope

you can raise this on Women's Hour. Well, consider it raised. And some of your suggestions about what those around you could have done or could be doing to make menopause easier. One comes in to say men should never laugh at hot flushes or at menopausal women. And another to say it was the woman and the women around them that they work with who are the worst, the younger women, at not being sympathetic about some of the menopausal symptoms

that our anonymous texter brings up. But let me ask you something else completely. How do you get through a breakup? How do you heal yourself? Talking about nursing a broken heart and attempts to move on in the current dating climate is the mission of Vogue's popular dating columnist Annie Lord, who's just released her debut book, Notes on Heartbreak, a memoir about the disintegration of a five-year-long relationship and its aftermath. Annie, congratulations. Good morning. Welcome to the

programme. Morning. Thank you for having me. This has all come out of an article that did go viral three years ago when, I'm sorry to say, your relationship came to an end. What happened and what were you talking about in that piece that you think resonated um well I guess um so I sort of charted what happened with the breakup which was um we I went to dinner with my dad and brother and then it felt like completely out of nowhere my boyfriend sort of pulled me to the side outside King's Cross and was um and ended our relationship and to be honest in retrospect I don't think it was out of nowhere I think I was like completely in denial about a lot of problems we had but um yeah I mean I wrote the article I think I was couldn't really have written anything else that was all I could think about at

that time um and I think part of me when I started writing it was maybe like wanting to write something super beautiful and captivating that would make him really miss me or whatever and then I think as time went on it just you know writing about the breakup kind of was like a diary and sort of was helping me come to terms with what happened and my feelings and things like that if if someone's going through it right now what would you say if a woman's listening um I'd say like I sometimes say to friends that go through breakups like you will probably feel really bad for like a year but I think in that year you'll have like really happy days as well it's not like the whole year is terrible it's just like a lot of the times you're going to feel

lower than others but I look back at the summer after we broke up and like I behaved so messy a lot of the time but part of that was like really funny I've got really fond memories of loads of silly things I did when I was like in that low place and you because you do talk about heartbreak is grief you know proper grief do you think we we take it seriously enough no like I I remember when it happened and sort of looking around at people walking down the road and thinking what this is like, what all of you were going through. Like I couldn't believe it was an experience that everyone goes through in their life because it just felt so bad to me. I felt like, oh, no, I must be going through it worse sort of thing. And and like it was I found it really difficult as well.

You know, I sort of want to read books or watch films that really captured what I was going through. And I just found that they were very like, come on, girl, get up. You can do it. Like, you'll be fine without me sort of thing. And I just, nothing seemed to dwell in it as much as I wanted it to. Yeah. And you do like with some of the other experiences as well, but I think particularly with Heartbreak, you know,

you think why is the world still spinning? Why are you still walking along doing your thing and I am here in this pit of of despair I mean you are someone people are turning to for advice and uh the climate now within which to date is is constantly changing and keeps changing especially with of course the rise of apps and and you know conversations happening digitally and the way that people share pictures, and then also the way that people just disappear. And I know that you've looked at this, why men, some men, ghost women. And where have you come to with the conclusion on that? I know you've written about it, and it's also in the book. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a lot of factors. I think dating apps make it a lot easier,

because there's no sort of accountability so you know if you meet someone on app and then you decide to just stop messaging them it's quite easy because there's not going to be any mutual friends around being like oh that calling you out on your behavior and things like that I think this apps also mean there's so many more options for different people so after like three dates it's quite easy to get bored um or not not bored but see someone else somewhere else and think oh I'll just try that and nothing really like sticks um and one of my friends always says that men have um a lot less like object permanence than women which I didn't know what it meant but I asked her and she was saying that it's like forgetting that when you

can't see something forgetting it's there and I've I feel like that's kind of true like I'll be on a date and I'll you know be talking to a guy and it feels like they're so into you and they're like oh like do you want to go out on the weekend and I've not felt like this in a while and then it's like as soon as you're off the date the texts just like filter away and it just becomes sort of goes into nothing again it is really exhausting yes and you know it's exhausting trying to come up with the messages when you're not on the date to see if you can get another day or they want another day and all the different uh psychology linked to that i mean you've said you're unlucky with men uh with you know how you are in your personal life i know you share that as well and of course this is a this is the driving force of

the book do you still feel like that now you've given it good thought and try to advise others it's weird i think sometimes i'm it's so much easier to focus on when you've given it good thought and tried to advise others it's weird I think sometimes I'm it's so much easier to focus on when you've been rejected not when you reject other people because I remember recently I think I was moaning about like not finding anyone I liked and or something and my friend was like what about that guy you met at the gig and then what about that friend you got with and then you are like I think I I keep moaning about this stuff to do with apps and how it makes people disposable. But I'm probably a massive part of that as well. And I think as well, I do think as well that I'm quite a warm, open, like overly familiar sort of person.

And I think that's sometimes not people always like mysterious, like aloof people more, I think maybe. Not everybody. I mean, this is the more, I think maybe. Not everybody. I mean, this is the thing, I suppose, with your work, you have to generalise at times to make any points, but there will be, as your preference is, there will be men listening to this thinking, I don't want aloof. I want someone who's straightforward with me and shares

and exactly as you describe. Well, the book is called Notes on Heartbreak. Annie Lord is who you've been listening to. Good luck with it. Congratulations, and thank you for coming on the programme. Thank you. There you go. Annie, check out her work.

She writes for Vogue, but also now there is that book. Now, I mentioned we have been covering the reaction to and the reality of the US Supreme Court's overturning of Roe v. Wade all week, and we've continued to do so, as you've been hearing on this very programme today. It has prompted many of you to get in touch since last Friday to share your own reactions and experiences. One listener that we're just calling Nicola contacted me because the decision made her want to talk about her mum,

who died after having a legal termination that should have been safe here in the UK. This was back in 1968, the same year that the Abortion Act came into law in England, Scotland and Wales. The tragedy was never spoken about in Nicola's family and as horrific as it was, Nicola says she's deeply alarmed by Roe v Wade being overturned and defends women's right to choose. Nicola, good morning. Welcome to the programme. Good morning. Why did you want to talk about what happened to your mum before we get to that? I think that like so many women listening to what was happening across the pond and really feeling incredibly horrified at watching sort of the clock go backwards

and you know it seems unthinkable that it could happen here but so many unthinkable things have happened in the last few years that you know it could do um I I wanted to speak out because I think I've grown up I'm I'm 54 now and and really for most of my most of my life all of my childhood and certainly quite a lot of my adult life and it was unsayable what happened to my to my mother and the only person that I ever really spoke to about it was my identical twin sister we went through the same experience um but yeah my mother was um 25 years old and um she had six month old twins my sister and I and my brother who was about nearly two years old right and she found herself pregnant um and she saw her doctor and was kind of deeply distressed at the sort of having another baby um I don't know the intricacies of it because my

father has has had one conversation ever with me. In fact, about six months ago when I pretty much begged him to share some information with me to help me. And she had a termination. And of course, I mean, even here in 2022, you don't hear many women talk about their own personal experience of termination. You were how old when she died? Eight months old. Eight months. And how old were you when you were told or what were you told about her death? So I was told absolutely nothing.

Nothing at all. I only knew that there had been this death and that, you know, you look back and you know that as a child, the unspoken language, there's something really, really terrible has happened, but it was never spoken about. And my father remarried and had more children and we didn't have pictures of my mother and there was just no real reference made to her um and when I was um eight when my twin sister and I were 18 she was getting ready to go on an overseas trip and went to find some a birth certificate I think and found a load of press cuttings because um when my mother died because she was the first um woman in um country to buy to die of a legal abortion. Obviously, the press picked it up and it was in, I mean,

it was in newspapers right across Scotland, you know. The Aberdeen Echo picked it up. I mean, I have cuttings, you know. So just to clarify, I'm not trying to cut across to you. Your mum was the first woman to die of a legal termination. A legal termination. Termination, exactly. And obviously there was a lot of still very, very strong,

vehement anti-abortion sentiment. And of course, you know, it was a very, very hot topic. So the angle from the press was twofold release, slightly that my mother had kind of, there seemed to be a suggestion that my mother maybe had been pressed into it but um i think most importantly that it was just you know something that the medics shouldn't have allowed and it was still a highly dangerous operation but the reason that i feel so strongly about rowan wade is it shouldn't be a dangerous operation it actually should be a very routine operation that that someone with experience and skill can perform safely.

Well, and that's a very relevant point to your mum and what happened, what you then learned happened, because some of the medical staff, because it was so newly legal, were too inexperienced. I think that's the point. Although at the time that the coroner said look it was accidental you know the fact is to give you a little bit of detail really was that the surgeon who performed the operation who clearly hadn't performed that surgery more than a handful of times because it was you know it was it was an operation that was performed underground wasn't it so he hadn't performed the surgery he perforated her uterus he went home said to the medical staff you might want to keep an eye on her but not only did they not keep an eye on her they hadn't got any spare blood they hadn't matched her blood and they didn't have any any blood right so she hemorrhaged and and she died and by the time they tried to

save her it was too late you know and and it should just never have happened I mean it was just a tragedy really and my fear is abortion will be driven underground. No, no, sorry. Do tell me your fear. It will be driven underground and people, you know, the medical staff will become inexperienced again. You know, that that operation will become much less safe. Yes. Even when it's legitimately performed. Because also the question I was going to ask was that even though it had become legal, it was very new and attitudes were perhaps, you know, we know actually we're much more polarised at that point than we know in regular

attitudinal surveys now. And this, I imagine, you tell me, Nikki, though, is part of the reason why it wasn't spoken about in your family, because there was shame attached to it. I think there was huge shame. And my father did tell me when we finally spoke about it last year that people he'd known his whole life crossed the street to not talk to him after it happened. So this was a grieving man with, you know, a young 25-year-old,

my mother's 25, 25-year-old wife, three children to care for and people just shut him out because they were, you know, appalled by what had happened. So, yeah, there was a huge amount of shame. And I think, you know, what does Roe v. Wade tell us? That this is something that is shameful, that it's illegal, that is unsafe. I mean, it just beggars belief, really, that we're going back to those times. In America, of course, not in the UK.

And I know that we've also talked on this programme about some of the steps, not in the UK. And I know that we've also talked on this programme about some of the steps being taken in the UK. But just finally, apart from me saying, Nicola, thank you very much for talking today and finding the words, how does it feel to have shared your mum's story like this on Women's Hour? It was a little nerve wracking. I spoke to my twin about it and she said, we have a voice and and it's

really important to share the story so you know I don't know who this helps but I hope it helps I hope it helps the groundswell of a kind of outrage and anger and protest that I hope is coming to overturn this decision. Nicola thank you very much indeed I always say do get in touch with the programme I mean it we listen to you and Nicola. And I'm sure we will continue to have a response and many responses to what Nicola's just said. Her mother being the first woman to die in this country with legal termination, with legal abortion, because the doctors, as they see it, even though the coroner ruled differently, were inexperienced at the procedure. If you have anything you want to say to that or any other responses to the overturning of Roe v Wade, the constitutional right as it was to abortion in America, 84844 is the number you need. Now let me tell you about another expression, another story, a play. The Fellowship by Roy Williams is set in modern Britain. Sisters Marcia and Dawn are children of Windrush generation parents. They grew up in the 80s in London,

were activists on the front line against the multiple injustices of that time. It is now 2019 and the sisters realise they have nothing much in common beyond family. Dawn struggles to care for their dying mother whilst dealing with grief and parenting her teenage son. Meanwhile, high-flying lawyer Marcia's affair

with a married politician might be about to explode and destroy her career. It's a lot. It's on at the Hampstead Theatre. Joining me now, the director, Paulette Randall-MBE, who became, I should say, the first female black director to bring a production to the West End in 2013. Maybe we'll return to that.

And Suzette Llewellyn, who plays Marcia, but you also may know her from Cherie Truman or as Cherie Truman on EastEnders. A warm welcome to both of you to the studio today. Paulette, if I come to you first, the play deals with a lot of themes common to the immigrant experience, but the sisters struggle in their own way growing up black and British. How successful do you think the playwright has been

in highlighting these experiences? Oh, incredible. I mean, he's extraordinary, Roy. I've worked with Roy Williams before, and he's just got an amazing ear. I mean, a lot of people think, oh, yes, he can write about men and, you know, get that right. But it's phenomenal what he's done in terms of writing for women. Yes. And getting that experience across. And what do you, what's your take on that as playing in it, Suzette? I would absolutely agree. We were also very fortunate to have Roy with us in the room while we were rehearsing, which is always, it's always a great thing to be able to have the writer with you to look and see what works, what bends, what changes and how it works with each of the performers.

So that's been wonderful. It's a beautiful relationship between these two sisters because they can speak to each other in the way that anybody who has a sibling can understand. You know, you love each other intensely, but there's also that fierce quality where you can say the most dreadful things to each other that you would never say to anybody else,

but you can say it to your sibling. That's why family drama often makes the best script. Absolutely, absolutely. It does. For you, Paulette, as well, though, there's an interesting element, there's many interesting elements, but there's a criticism by Dawn

of white liberals jumping on the bandwagon of the Black Lives Matter movement and a word there, there are many words about the cynicism, perhaps about the anti-racism movement now. What would you say to that? Oh God, that's a heavy question. What would I say to that?

I think actually what we need to do is to start having proper conversations about what it actually means, what it really means for you to experience the hideousness of racism. And also for your, my white friends, who are family, really, you know, we have had to go to a place where the honesty, like you were just saying, Suzette, about the sisters, but I've actually had to do that and willingly, and my friends absolutely reciprocating that and I think that's where it starts. We just need to have the bravery, the trust that I love you

so I'm going to say this and then we can actually start to make a change. How have you found those sorts of conversations? Because some people are saying they've not had them before quite like this. I know, I know and I'm surprised actually because I think I've been, dare I say, privileged in a way to have had those conversations in the past. I mean, Suzette and I, we worked together. Oh, do you remember when it was? Oh, gosh, it was Oh, God, it was before I had the so it was before 2005. Right. It might have been about 2003.

Okay, so this was a play that wasn't written on day one. It was a fabulous play. Urban Afro-Saxon. And it was exploring what makes you British. So that dialogue was being explored at that time. And I suppose those conversations are happening more, but then at the other time, people can get nervous about it or not know what to say, which is where theatre, where art can lead. You can be taught. You can learn as well as feel like you're part of that conversation. you know, get nervous about it or not know what to say, which is where theatre, where art can lead.

You can be taught, you can learn, as well as feel like you're part of that conversation. How important has that element been for you, Suzette, to have an ability to share some of those thoughts and feelings? With what people... Through the script, but also seeing audiences that have to engage, I suppose, with that. I think it's important in that, as you say, it can be a jumping point for some people who may be,

you mentioned, may be a bit fearful of saying that. But I think if you come with an open heart, even the most, a question that could sound the most ridiculous question, if it comes from a good place with an open heart, then I am prepared to speak to you on that. But if it comes from a place sometimes where you have an investigator or you're not prepared to listen,

because that's what's really important, is to listen to what my response is. If you want to preempt it or tell me something or give me more of what your story is with it or what you think your response should be, I think that's where it gets difficult. But it has to be honest and open-hearted. It really needs to be. Well, I was going to say, sorry, a lot of people, that's almost making a terrible point in myself, but a lot of people are terrible listeners.

You know, not everyone, but about all sorts of subjects. They come with their ideas and then actually, as you say, hearing something new is hard, isn't it? Yeah. It's something to learn. And also, I was going to just say sometimes listen and just wait you don't always have to have an immediate response because sometimes that i feel can be an error in that you feel and i can understand maybe that you feel a pressure you think you have to say

something wait absorb it just say you know okay i've heard what you've said i'm not sure how i can respond to that i'm going to leave that and think about it. And I think that's the kind of honesty that you need to have these kind of conversations. Yes, well, the play is called, if you missed it right at the beginning, I always get asked this, what was the actual play called, Emma?

Say it again. So it's called The Fellowship. It's by Roy Williams, directing Paulette Randall, MBE, who we've had with us here, and Suzette Llewellyn, who's in it, who plays Marcia, who, as I say, you may know from EastEnders as well.

It's on at the Hamster Theatre. What do you want to say? That it's on until the 23rd of July. It's a fabulous play. There she goes. You need to come and see it. Absolutely. Well, thank you to both of you for joining me.

Thank you for your company and all of your messages today. We're back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Stephen Fry and I heartily recommend you listen to the BBC's history podcast, You're Dead to Me, because, well, one, you can join me in learning all about Frederick the Great of Prussia. Two, it takes you on a historical grand tour from naughty nuns who became stitching sisters to a globe-trotting Maghrebi.

And three, well, it's fun. And don't we all need a little bit of that at the moment? You can find it on BBC Sounds, don't you know? So subscribe to You're Dead to Me and have yourself a giggle as most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.