Woman's Hour - Anoushka Shankar, UTIs, Sad Beige Children

Episode Date: December 2, 2022

Anoushka Shankar is a respected sitarist and composer who has just received two Grammy nominations for her new live album Between Us. She joins Anita to talk about the her new song, In Her Name, in memory of the young girl from Delhi, referred to as Nirbhaya, who 10 years ago was gang raped on a bus and was subjected to an attack so badly that she died from her injuries. The incident sent shockwaves across the world and led to the introduction of new anti-rape laws in India.An estimated half of all women will suffer from a urinary tract infection (UTI) in their lifetime – so why has testing been such an inexact science until now? Some patients have their infections missed entirely, or, on the flipside, they receive unnecessary or incorrect antibiotics which may leave them host to an antibiotic resistant strain. But a new test could be about to change that. Dr Emma Hayhurst is part of a team of scientists developing a new test for UTIs that could provide a diagnosis in just 40 minutes. She joins Anita, along with Dr Agnes Arnold-Forster, from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, who last year executive produced a documentary film on the experience of living with a chronic UTI. Why is social media obsessed with nurseries and toys in neutral, muted colours? Anita speaks to the writer and librarian Hayley DeRoche, who coined the term ‘sad beige clothes for sad beige children’. She tells us about her viral videos which skewer the beige aesthetic. And journalist Martha Alexander explains why she has resigned herself to a life of multicolour with her daughter.Presented by Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and breathe, we've made it to Friday. Now we often discuss, as you know, everyday sexism here on Woman's Hour and there was an example of it at the highest level this week. The leaders of Finland and New Zealand, Sanne Marin and Jacinda Ardern, were being questioned at a press conference in Auckland on Wednesday, and this happened. Yeah, a lot of people will be wondering, are you two meeting just because, you know, you're similar in age and, you know, got a lot of,

you know, common stuff there, you know, when you got into politics and stuff, or can Kiwis actually expect to see more deals between our two countries down the line? My first question is, I wonder whether or not anyone ever asked Barack Obama and John Key if they met because they were of similar age. We, of course, have a higher proportion of men in politics. It's reality because two women meet.

It's not simply because of their gender. Yeah, we are meeting because we are prime ministers. I had to play it for you. Proper toe-curling moment. It is actually my favourite clip of the week and a strong contender for clip of the year. It's also a masterclass in how to take down sexism with a simple statement of fact. We are prime ministers.

Mic drop. I've been playing it on repeat. It cheers me right up. I can highly recommend it. If you're having a down moment, we are prime ministers. Mic drop. I've been playing it on repeat. It cheers me right up. I can highly recommend it. If you're having a down moment, just listen to that. Then we are rolling out the red carpet for musical royalty today. Sitar Supremo Anushka Shankar will be here to talk about her powerful new record, a song to ensure we don't forget the horrendous Delhi rape case of a 23-year-old woman

who came to be known as Nirbhaya Fearless. It's an incredible record and I cannot wait to speak to Anushka about it, as well as lots of other things she's got going on in her life. Then there is also a new test in development to be able to detect UTIs, urinary tract infections. UTIs will affect an estimated half of all women once in their lifetime. And have you ever found yourself looking longingly at perfect pictures of perfect children dressed in various muted shades of brown? That perfect, chic, Victorian pauper look jazzed up for the modern child with a very modern and eye-watering price tag attached. Just, you know know so tasteful and

so instagrammable and then you look at the reality of your own life which is a vomit of bright colors bright plastic and actual vomit well you won't want to miss me speaking to hayley derosh who is taking down in the most hilarious way sad beige clothes for sad beige children and as you know this program will not be this programme without your input on anything you hear on the show. So please do get in touch with me. The text number is 84844. You can contact me via social media.

It's at BBC Woman's Hour. You can also WhatsApp me a message or a voice note. It's 03700 100 444. But check all the data charges and terms and conditions, which can be found on our website. But first, 10 years ago, the world stopped and gasped at one of the most horrific rape cases to have ever been reported. In December 2012, a young girl from Delhi was gang raped on a bus. She was subjected to an attack so brutal that she died from her injuries.

As a result, the incident sent shockwaves across the world and led to the introduction of new anti-rape laws in India. And it highlighted male attitudes towards consent rape and some may say triggered of movement in women in India coming together to publicly stand up against sexual violence. Well, my next guest is someone who ten years on wants to make sure the victims of such crimes, like the girl referred to as Nirbhaya, are not forgotten. She's an international superstar in her own right. In a league of her own, I would say. One of the world's greatest sitar players

and composers who's just received not one, but two Grammy nominations, which she can add to the seven she already has. I am delighted to say Anoushka Shankar is with me in the studio. Welcome. Good morning love. It is lovely to see you at Woman's Hour. Now your new track In Her Name. Why did you want to make this record? On a personal level every 16th of december i can't help myself remembering the date and um and remembering her and what happened to her and so i was conscious that we were

approaching a 10-year anniversary but in these last couple of years um as as you know and as most of the listeners know there have been so many other horrific stories um and so one after another they hit me with that same awful traumatic gut punch when I hear what's happening to another woman. And something about the intersection of these continued horrific stories and the idea that 10 years had passed since a moment that I remember we all stopped and said, this can't happen anymore. I just thought, what's going on? You know, 10 years later, what has actually changed? And I suppose from there, I felt propelled to look back at a piece of music I'd written at the time originally after Jyoti's rape and murder, that was called In Jyoti's Name. And I kind of recomposed that piece and extended

it and invited our dear friend Nikita Gill, the incredible poet to add lyrics to it. Who's been on Woman's Hour. Yes, she has. And it was wonderful. But so this extended piece of music is called In Her Name to be in her honor, but also in everyone else's honor, because tragically, there have been so many others. And there's a sense of frustration and rage and impotence around the fact that things like this keep happening. And you mentioned her name Jyoti, actually, at the time, she was called Nirbhaya Fearless. But then her mother actually stepped forward and said, I want people to know her name.

Because that was such a powerful thing. You know, in India, obviously, there's a culture, a sense of a shame that must be felt by the victim, you know, so it's supposedly a protection of the victim to keep their name from the public. And the idea that her mother said, in effect, this shame is not hers, you know, this is her name, we don't have to hide her name, was so incredibly powerful that that was the only reason I would have used her name in the piece of music. It's incredible. So you are there speaking the words of poet and writer Nikita Gill. It's a six minute track.

And I've listened to the whole thing on repeat. And it feels to me like a meditation and a war cry yeah um I mean it's hard for me to describe my own pieces of music I suppose there's a real sense of urgency about it yeah I mean for me it feels like a burning of some kind like it just feels like um a prayer a war cry a scream a plea all all of those things. What do you want people to feel when they hear it? I suppose a sense of collectiveness between us, because that was the thing, like, you know,

whether it was Sarah Everard or whether it was what's happening in Iran or what's happening in the States, like the thing that's carried me through is calling other women on the phone, right? And being able to cry to another sister or feel that rage in her belly, the same that I feel in my belly. And so maybe this piece of music is an offering to grow and to share in that feeling. And from there, perhaps maybe that feeling of connection can lead to strength in numbers or change or a resolve or even if it's just a feeling of connection, lead to strength in numbers or change or a resolve. Even if it's just a feeling of connection, that would be wonderful.

Well, the record is incredible. It's very perfectly timed as well. It feels like just what we need. But back to 2013, another reaction you had from this horrific rape case is that you spoke publicly for the first time about your own experience of sexual abuse. Why did you decide to do that? You know, it wasn't a conscious decision. I just felt propelled or compelled to speak. Again, we touched on it earlier, this sense of a shame and whether the shame belongs to the victim, you know, which is embedded within the culture of secrecy, protecting their name, you know, and one of the things that I was seeing around with, you know, a friend, for example, says that her

own father said, Oh, how horrible, but but what was she doing out at night with that? Yeah, with that male friend, you know, if she's unmarried, or, or what another voice may have said, maybe maybe what's happening to her is getting so much attention, because she's middle class, and people wouldn't pay as much attention if she, but this kind of thing never happens in a certain part of society. All of these things were just filtering into my brain along with the trauma of what had happened to her. And I thought, my God, you know, I have my own story, which is nothing, nothing like hers. But the fact that people seem to think still that this doesn't happen everywhere and it couldn't happen to anyone. And for someone like like you who is a demigod

in India prefer to speak out you never people have perfect lives people who people have perfect lives revere have perfect lives and here you are lifting the lid and saying actually this has happened to me what was the reaction I mean it was a shockwave actually I mean I didn't I wasn't prepared for for the level of of what happened perhaps naively I wasn't prepared for the level of what happened. Perhaps naively, I wasn't prepared for how viral it would kind of go. And so suddenly I was watching my own story kind of growing across the world for a minute there. And that was very strange. But it still felt important and it felt right. And I think the big thing that happened is just the response of other people going, my God, you know, if it could happen to her, it could happen to anyone.

Or a lot of people going, my God, if she can speak, so can I. And, you know, the kind of the continuance in the last 10 years of the people I've heard from over a decade of how me speaking meant something in their life, or even, you know, my own older female family members, you know, for them a generation above me to kind of go, wow, you know, all these years, I never said, and then would share something. I mean, that's been the most treasured thing, really. It's almost like they have to listen now. Whereas before, I think women have been told to be quiet and shut down, whereas now they've got no choice but to listen.

Absolutely. Have things changed in India? I mean, yeah, I mean, India or anywhere, have they changed? Yes. Have they changed enough? No. You know, there's horrific instances this year itself, very, very recently. And so I don't know whether to say yes or no to that question, but it hasn't changed enough, regardless. you're so much has happened in your life yeah and you spoke very openly and publicly about your your own sexual abuse but then you've talked so openly and vulnerably about lots of things that have happened in your life and i was reading one of your instagram posts last night from 2019 talking about your hysterectomy why did you want to share that i suppose these are waves that that build from each other i think my experience of sharing about my abuse showed me what power there can be in sharing vulnerability and how that can help other people. And when I had my hysterectomy in 2019, I remember one person kind of said to me, oh, well, you know, we wouldn't go talking about that everywhere, would we? And I thought, well, why not? Because whenever I was going to a friend or someone I knew with the news that I just found out I needed to have a hysterectomy, invariably they would say, oh, I've had one or,

oh, my mom's had one or, oh, my sister's had one. It was so common. And I thought, how is it so common? And I've never actually heard people talk about it the same way they would talk about a hip replacement or a knee injury. And so again, that same experience in my head kind of started worrying of like, people aren't saying this thing. I need to say this thing. I'm going to say this thing but it's so powerful when you say it yeah because no one expects you to say it well because it involved I mean again you know in the not not me as a person as as Anushka the woman that you're friends with and that plays a musical instrument but me as my father's daughter me coming from that legacy that doesn't really match up with someone talking about having periods having pains

having something reproductive going on in case anyone hasn't twigged anushka is the daughter of uh ravi shanko who famously brought indian classical music to the west yeah that yes that the ravi shanko is just um um but i didn't want to introduce you as his his daughter because you are you are you um actually what i do want to talk about is your mother. That would be so nice. Because she's quite a remarkable woman, because actually you didn't move to India until you were six years old. Yeah, six or seven.

Yeah, I grew up here. I was in Wilston with my mum first. Because you were a love child. I was a love child. Was it a scandal? It was when my parents got married and everyone found out my dad had a daughter no one knew about because she kind of kept me in will's den for she couldn't keep kept your head in because you

look just like him it got apparently it got funny when we would go to his shows and things so it wasn't maybe that much of a secret eventually um but uh yeah i know my mom my mom always forged her own path in a in in in not a in a in a very beautiful way you know right from the beginning she kind of ran away to the uk um to escape an arranged marriage and and really made her own life here in well in a way that you could in the 70s and can't now but um but really kind of made a life for herself here and then and then continued on that path by choosing to have me even even though that would go against you know everything in her society and what that may mean. And then your life completely changed, you know, and you had to adapt to growing up in India. It was bonkers. My surname changed, our lifestyle changed, my identity changed. You know, who I thought my father was was suddenly this incredible person that I knew,

but I didn't know he was my dad. And we moved homes, moved countries, moved cultures. It was nuts. Absolutely. And now you have your own two children. Yeah. Bringing them up as a single mom. Yeah. And touring. How'd you get the balance right? You know what? I have real umbrage with that question. I love you. But just because I feel like the idea of us getting balance right is something that is so impossible. Yeah. That as women, I feel like every time there's a woman on an interview talking about how they get it all right I feel like invariably there's going to be some listener feeling overwhelmed going oh how do I how do I do it that's what happens to me anyway because I just

feel like all it is is just trying every day and invariably feeling like you failed in one area yes you know so whenever I have a big success in work I feel guilty that I've left my kids with someone or if I'm doing a show and it happens to be a day one of them happens to be sick and I can't leave it the same way I would leave another day of work you know it all it's all wins and losses that just never quite tally up in this energy just muddling through muddling through muddling through so yeah balance is just trying your best every day in all the mess of it. And leaving the beige clothes out of it. I've never, yeah. We've got to mention two Grammy nominations.

Two Grammy nominations. Congratulations. Thank you very much. For your live album. Yes. And for the track you've done with Aruja Thab. Yes. Who is also a former Woman's Hour guest. Yes.

Amazing. It feels incredible. I mean, yeah, I've never had two nominations in one night before. So that's nine nominations in total. Nine nominations total. I mean, my negative spinning head just hears nine nominations, zero wins. No! Until now. We'll see. But yeah, there's this awful period in this kind of stuff where being nominated is the most elating feeling initially. And then there's these two months where you kind of settle into that feeling normal and can't help hoping that you'll win.

And then like two months later, if you don't win, the same thing that felt incredible can feel like not enough. So I just try very hard each time to just kind of keep it as a lovely thing that just happened to come my way that had nothing to do with actually making the piece of work I made. And whatever happens with that later will happen. But what is about to happen is that you're about to go to India to tour. When was the last time you played in India and how excited it was before the pandemic so I haven't been there in nearly three years and so I'm I'm looking forward as an understatement I'm really I can't wait to be back performing um it also overlaps with this 10-year anniversary so we'll be premiering the song live um in her name playing it in India you know which which means a lot and um yeah I'll be taking my

kids there for the first time in six years so just lots of reasons I can't wait to be back well I just want to wish you all the best of luck with all of it this this record is incredible and feels so timely and just what we need right now so thank you for that best of luck with the tour and also we started with a bit of everyday sexism have you have you ever encountered any yeah little ones, big ones. When I was a teenager, there was like a really well-known musician that came backstage after the show and said that I'd played so well that if he closed his eyes, he couldn't even tell I was a girl. Wow. What a compliment. I know. Anushka Shankar, thank you so much for talking to me. Thanks. 84844 is the number to text if you'd like to get in touch with me about anything you hear

on the programme. Wasn't that amazing? Now, now for the first time journalists will be able to report what happens in family courts family courts have powers to make drastic interventions such as ordering children to be taken into care they also decide where children should live when parents cannot agree or where there are allegations of abuse up Up until now, reporters have been able to observe hearings but could only report what was being allowed by a judge. A 12-month pilot scheme will run from the end of January and take place in three areas in the country, Leeds, Cardiff and Carlisle. The changes being trialled are potentially very significant, affecting a court system which involves at least half a million people every year. Well to find out more about this I'm joined by the barrister Dr Charlotte Proudman. Welcome to Woman's Hour Charlotte.

In your opinion is it a good idea that the family courts are opened up for journalists to report on cases? Absolutely. I have been a firm believer and supporter of transparency and accountability in the family courts and part of that is lifting the veil of secrecy. So at the moment, it is impossible often for the public to sit in on family courts and extremely difficult for journalists to attend and report on what's happening within the family courts because it can be so difficult to get permission from judges to allow them to say, this is the case that I saw, the court is dealing often with very serious draconian matters, such as the adoption of

children, putting them into state care, dealing with allegations of rape, domestic abuse, coercive and controlling behaviour. So really serious decisions are often made in the family courts, and yet very rarely, journalists are within those courts and able to report on what's happening. So what currently happens then in family courts? So what currently happens when it comes to reporting is that occasionally a journalist might attend a family court hearing. And when they attend, it can often result in quite a significant amount of disruption. Everybody's very confused about why a journalist is even at the hearing. They have to get permission to be able to even sit in on the hearing, even though they are actually allowed to be present.

But there's usually a lot of confusion amongst judges and professionals, understandably, because it's a very rare occurrence. And then once they're in the family court hearing, they have to ask for permission to be able to report on what's taken place and usually they might be allowed to report providing that nobody is named but in some cases that i've been involved in there has been a blanket ban on reporting anything and so a journalist sometimes freelance might have taken up their entire day to attend that court hearing heard something which is very serious in nature often for instance concerning whether rape has taken place or not whether a child has been sexually abused looking at the procedures and making findings of that nature and then being told actually you can't report on this. Yeah because one of the criticisms has been that there's a lot of secrecy about what happens in family courts. Do you think this will go in some way towards ending that? Andrew Griffiths who was a former member of parliament and there was an uphill struggle and battle in order for her to be able to speak out about the abuse that she had suffered

because of the blanket ban on reporting and so we went to the high court about that and then the court of appeal and she eventually won which is why I'm allowed to talk about that now with you otherwise like in the vast majority of cases clients that I represent who are victims of abuse are silenced. They are prevented from speaking out about what has happened to them. And I know that that is different to allowing journalists to report because journalists still won't be able to name who those individuals are, sometimes in cases of quite significant public interest when they concern celebrities or other public figures. And in other cases, it could be Joe Bloggs or somebody

next door who's experienced significant trauma, distress through the family court, and they're told they cannot share their own story. And in my view, that's a breach of their right to self-identification and self-determination, which every victim should have the right to tell their story. And we're seeing this play out in other proceedings such as defamation cases, where victims are prevented from speaking about what's happened to them. I mean, court can be an intimidating place. So do you think having journalists attend might add an extra layer of pressure to the families? I hope not. I mean, of course, that's possible. And I think it is part of a balancing exercise to strike between whether a particular family member is very vulnerable or traumatized, stigmatized, victimized and might not feel comfortable giving their best evidence of the journalist is present and certainly should be looked at. the proposals for this pilot scheme, in making it clear that nobody can be identified and there shouldn't be any jigsaw identification, I hope that that will put parents and other family members

at a sense of ease and knowing that certainly their names won't become available to other people. And I do think that there is a stronger public interest in knowing what is happening behind closed doors, especially in some of those most serious cases. And it's quite unusual because when it comes to a trial, so, for example, you'll be doing a fact find hearing about, say, an allegation of rape, which could take five days. It could take longer. And you'll have all sorts of people cross examined about that. You'll often have police reports reports hospital reports and so forth in some respects it can be similar to a criminal trial but without the jury and without the public in attendance and of course it's one party against another rather than sometimes the state and in all of that process there'll often be nobody that's in attendance nobody that's able to see procedurally what's happened and then there'll

be no report on the judgment so judge may give a lengthy decision 20 pages 30 pages that's able to see procedurally what's happened. And then there'll be no report on the judgment. So a judge may give a lengthy decision, 20 pages, 30 pages, that's not public and available for public viewing. And then when I appeal those decisions, and in many cases I have and sometimes been successful, interestingly, the appeal is public. So the names will be available on the public record outside of the court hearing. So anybody can see who's in that court and the public can attend. Journalists can attend and potentially report on that. And we've seen many press reports of appeals. It's quite curious that some proceedings are not available and open to the public and journalists and yet others are. Do you think this could actually skew what we see and

understand about what happens in these family courts because we've got journalists in the room? I actually think that it will potentially make judges a little bit more careful about some of the language that they use in some of these hearings. So we saw from the Ministry of Justice's harm report in June 2021, which I wholly endorse and echo, that there is a minimisation of domestic abuse and rape. Sometimes rape stereotypes play out. I did a recent appeal where my client had suggested that the judge had said to her that she was too intelligent to have been raped because she apparently couldn't remember the exact date that she had been raped on. These types of stereotypes and myths that play out in the family courts, in my view, have no place in the justice system. And holding judges to account, not only through appeals, which is costly, it's certainly very emotionally draining and stressful. You're not always successful.

But having the media present and make it clear that these things will be reported on when judges get this wrong, I think is imperative. I mean, one of my cases, a mother, she was giving evidence about rape, domestic abuse and control. And then by the end of it, she was struggling to breathe. She was admitted into hospital and then she sat in a hospital bed when she heard her alleged rapist give evidence about the alleged rape that had taken place while she was in hospital and not only that when she was giving

her evidence and she was struggling to breathe she was looking at her alleged rapist and he was looking at her there were not even any special measures. Now, if there was a journalist in that court, I raise a question as to whether that would have actually taken place. And that's just one of many examples of cases, in my view, that have clearly gone wrong. And in that case, the high court agreed and she won her appeal. And then, interestingly, when she did appeal, and she won, that decision was published. And we saw that in the Independent. And we saw that published wider afield. How radical a shift could this be then?

I hope it is radical. I really do. I hope that this pilot is successful. And I hope we see it rolled out to the rest of the country. Because I think at the moment, there's a real reluctance, and understandably so, from journalists in attending court hearings, because there's no guarantee they'll be able to report on what's actually happened. And I think we need a real cultural shift in the family courts, that you are going to be scrutinized, not just judges, but other professionals, myself as a barrister, CAFGAS officers, social workers, and so forth. There's going to be a scrutiny of the decisions that are made, not just by those sitting in the court in a comfortable

position, often working within the establishment, but from the public outside. Because the rule of law and the legal system that we operate in is a fundamental component of our democracy. And to have a healthy democracy, people need to know what's happening in our justice system behind closed doors. All right, Charlotte Proudman, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. I know that will be one that we come back to as we find out how the pilot scheme worked out. Thank you so much. Lots of you getting in touch about various things that you've already heard and we will be talking about. Anita, I was so thrilled to hear Anushka Shankar. I've been a fan for her for so long. It was brilliant so thrilled to hear anushka shanka i've been a fan for her for so long it was brilliant lovely to hear anushka shanka on woman's hour speaks so freely and a warm tribute to her mum and upcoming tour in india and a little bit later i mentioned that we're

going to be taking down beige clothes for beige children it's uh somebody who's gone viral with her very funny take on you've seen them those very tasteful muted victorian-esque expensive clothes for children and someone said hi regarding children's clothes uh it's important to let children choose what they wear when they have a choice not having to wear a uniform to school etc parents who won't let their children wear what they like are undermining their children they're saying to them that your choice is not a good one and it's beginning it's the beginning of giving them confidence self-worth, etc. I cringe many times at my son's choices of clothes, but they loved them and wore their football kit, flashing shoes, army kit, etc.

with pride and confidence. When else in your life can you get away with wearing a Spider-Man costume all day, every day? And let's face it, as adults, I'm sure there's lots of people out there who would do the same if they could get away with it. 84844, that's coming up. But first, next on the programme, we're talking about UTIs or urine retract infections. An estimated half of all women will suffer from one in their lifetime. So why has testing been such an inexact science until now? Well, some patients have their infections missed entirely, or on the flip side of that, they receive unnecessary or incorrect antibiotics,

which may leave them to a host of antibiotic restraint strain. But a new test could be about to change that. Dr. Emma Hayhurst joins me now. She's part of the team developing this test, which could identify the type of UTI a patient has in just 40 minutes. And I'm also joined by Dr. Agnes Arnold-Foster from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, who last year executive produced a documentary film on the experience of living with a chronic UTI. Morning to you both. Agnes, I'll come to you first.

In your work, you've talked about your experience of living with this chronic UTI. How difficult was that for you? Well, I had a recurrent UTI for 10 years, from the age of 17 to 27. And it was just a tedious and demoralising and painful repeated experience of going to the doctor, getting fogged off, dismissed, disregarded, being given very patronising advice about personal hygiene or sexual practices, sent away with either no antibiotics or the wrong kind of antibiotics or antibiotics is very unwell. And it was just an incredibly time consuming, I suppose, part of my life, if nothing else, where you just spend a huge amount of your time sitting in your GP waiting room, knowing that it probably won't work out.

And then not being taken seriously by them. Yeah, absolutely. Just very, very dismissive attitudes on behalf of doctors. They sort of think, oh, well, this is a routine experience for women. This is something you need to be putting up with. This is just something that should be part of your every day. And it is absolutely not part of, you should not be part of your everyday. It is agonising. So what was it like trying to go through the medical system, trying to get a diagnosis? I mean, it was a real trial. I have to say, I didn't really ever get a diagnosis. You know, I never got referred to secondary care. I never got an official diagnosis. I received my diagnosis

through my own research, through finding support with other women, through friends who'd run through similar experiences. And eventually it did get better for me. And I think that's something that's like, you know, important to point out that I was in some ways one of the lucky ones. There are women who've had much, much, much worse experiences than I had, who ended up in hospital with incredibly invasive procedures, who have suicidal ideation as a result of their pain and trauma from their medical experiences. And yeah, it's a real rough ride. In the film we made, we spoke to lots of women who'd had utterly appalling experiences and interactions with doctors. And yeah, it's a trial. Emma, I'm going to bring you in before I talk about this the new thing

that you're developing I started by saying around half of all women will have a UTI at some point in their lives how are we still at this point where people like Agnes are not being able to get a straight diagnosis about what's happening? That's a really good question. And it's one of the reasons that we wanted to look into this and really address this completely unmet health need. I think there's some difficult answers there around potential bias within the healthcare system and a very, very long history of dismissal of women's pain.

There is evidence to say that people respond differently when a woman reports the same level of pain as a man. It's not my area of expertise, but I certainly think that there's some difficult questions to ask there. And I think in combination with that, I do think, you know, Dr. Agnes referred to it there, there's a stigma associated with suffering from a UTI. And there's this really old fashioned view that it's linked to personal hygiene. I don't think we like talking out about our bits anyway, especially not when they're going wrong. So I think there's been a reluctance on behalf of women to come forward and to talk about their experiences as well. And I actually think that chronic and recurrent UTIs

are way more prevalent even than we realise at the moment because not everyone will come forward and talk about them. 84844 is the number to text if you'd like to get involved in this conversation and we would love to hear from you. Agnes was also talking about having a chronic infection which can be caused if an initial infection isn't identified and treated properly at the early stage which as we've just heard, didn't happen. So let's talk about your new test. How is this going to help? So basically, it's going to do exactly that. We know that despite the fact that millions of women present with symptoms of UTI into their GP surgeries, then there's no real good diagnostics that will tell you within a timely fashion whether there's an infection present.

So we set about to change that. So basically what our test does, it will tell you whether a woman has a UTI and which bacteria is causing that UTI within a timeframe where there can be an evidence-based treatment decision made. Because at the moment, it's just a little bit of guesswork. It's based on very nonspecific symptoms. And I think it's really important that a clinician, when they're making that decision, listens to the patient's voice. And in combination with that has the evidence to choose the right antibiotic to give that patient,

or sometimes not to give an antibiotic. Because I think if you give an antibiotic unnecessarily, or if you don't treat a UTI, both of those can lead on to that bacteria establishing itself potentially within the bladder or the vagina. And that can then go on to cause chronic infections. So I think there's lots of different patient groups that suffer from UTIs. And I'm not pretending that our test will kind of be the magic bullet that solves everything. But it will be a dam's light better than what currently is on offer. And I think if we can work to improve those acute cases, to improve the diagnosis and treatment of those, then that will hopefully reduce the number of people that go on to suffer

in the way that Dr Agnes has done. What happens with you, Agnes? Were you offered antibiotics straight away? No, so I think this is the origin point of my issues was that I had a UTI when I was 17 that was never treated. And I think that is the case. And, you know, as Emma says, you know, it's not going to be a solvable for everyone who has a chronic or recurrent or even severe UTI. But for lots of people who go on to live with this kind of condition for, you know, years, decades, if their first infection had been correctly and adequately treated, then they would have been solved.

They would have been saved, you know, a very, very long period of pain and suffering. And, you know, in some ways, that's one of the most frustrating things about chronic UTIs is that, in essence, or for lots lots of people they would have been quite easy to resolve in the first place you know there's an easy fix out there antibiotics do work for a lot of people and if they just had the right antibiotics at the right time then you know that's it that's that's they can go on and live their life in a normal fashion and so I think that's one of the things that's so exciting about this test is it it's a real opportunity for lives being saved. I mean, I don't mean bodily lives, but people's lived experiences being made much better.

What's the current testing system, Emma? So there's two choices, really, that actually at point of care. So there and then, then you can do what's called the dipstick test so I'm sure you're a bit familiar with these where they put a little bit of strip of paper often into the urine and it'll tell you non-specific markers of infection so it doesn't tell you the type of bacteria that's causing the UTI and it's also notoriously inaccurate so estimates that it misses three in ten of every infection so it's definitely ideal. But that's really the only option currently that people have at point of care. The other option is to send the urine sample off to a laboratory. And in the laboratory, then they will basically take that

sample and they'll grow the bacteria up onto an agar plate so that they can identify the bacteria that is growing within the urine. The problem with that is obviously it's not there and then. So the bacteria take one to two days to grow. You have to transport the sample to a lab. that is growing within the urine. The problem with that is obviously it's not there and then. So the bacteria take one to two days to grow. You have to transport the sample to a lab. And also, I think it hasn't moved on in 50 years. So you're still looking for a very narrow range of bacteria. And I think it comes from those days where we used to believe that the bladder and urine was sterile.

And we now know that it's not. It's just like the gut microbiome. It's full of loads of bacteria, most of them doing us an awful lot of good and no harm whatsoever. But some of them, when they get out of balance or the wrong ones get in, then they can cause infection. And I think the problem with that narrow view of looking for just a few bacteria is we're not taking into account this latest research and this latest knowledge that there might be other bacteria or other causes of these kind of chronic complications that we're not taking into account this latest research and this latest knowledge that there might be other bacteria or other causes of these kind of chronic complications that we're not picking up. So I'm hoping our test, we're looking for certain bacteria, but we can develop our test in lots of different ways in the future to be able to take on board any new research that comes out and to be able to link our test to the latest findings and to be able to find the

right bacteria and hopefully get women the right treatment at the right time. And women listening to us are getting in touch. Lucinda, who's 59, has said, I had to find out the hard way that recurrent UTIs are a frequent condition for postmenopausal women and have really been told it's just something you put up with, Emma. That's absolutely appalling. I know there's a huge increased risk as we age for UTIs. And not only that, but there's also an increased risk of severity. So actually they can, they are a leading cause of hospitalisation in the elderly. And they cause about 5,000 deaths every year in England and Wales alone. Really serious.

Yeah, they can go on, they can cause sepsis. They're a leading cause of sepsis. But in terms of post-menopause, there's, again, some evidence coming out now that actually you might be more at risk of a recurrent UTI due to hormonal imbalances, which, of course, we have huge hormonal changes as we go through menopause. So, yeah, I think there's a huge amount of research to be done there as well better understanding needed patricia's got in touch

today at last mainstream media talking about utis the infections themselves can yes absolutely we've all got our arms in the air um the infections themselves can destroy lives families marriages but the lack of coherent help makes it so much worse if utis were suffered in the same way by men do you think that it would have taken this long to focus and work hard to solve this? Well, we've got Dr. Emma on the case now. I've had another one. I've had repetitive UTIs for years,

been agonizing and very difficult, fully investigated. My GP has been brilliant. HRT really helped though. Well, there you go. That goes back to that hormonal imbalance thing. Maybe what some women need is hormonal imbalance thing maybe what some women need is is hormonal treatment not antibiotic treatment you know well there's just we just don't know yeah we really don't know we need just a huge amount of funding i know there's a real focus on

women's health and there's a lot of talk at the moment about endometriosis and menopause and that's fabulous but we need to add utis to that conversation as well and make sure that that gets the recognition the funding it needs yeah just women's health all of it all the all the research needs to go into it and Agnes having campaigned in this area for such a long time now and lived with your chronic UTI for a decade what does this step mean for you I mean it's absolutely fantastic news and I'm so pleased that um people like Emma are putting some time like know, their hard-earned expertise and time and, you know, research funding into these, into this issue. I mean, I would say that, you know, absolutely I think that we need more research, we need more, you know, more science behind this, we need better testing, we need better treatment, but I think we also do need a cultural

and social shift and, you know, a lot of the things I encountered were not so much a problem of testing or treatment but a problem of attitude on behalf of healthcare professionals. You know it's great here that some of your cores had really really responsive GPs but unfortunately the system as a whole is not set up to take women's experiences seriously and this is true across the board in all sorts of different areas of women's health and indeed you know other kinds of health other marginalized groups and I think that that is really critical that we need to accompany these kinds of research steps with a kind of retraining rethinking you know a different kind of thinking about how we treat women in in primary and secondary care. Sure and Emma when

the big question when can we expect to see this test being used? It's undergoing clinical verification and validation at the moment. We're working with Public Health Wales to do that. And we're really hopeful that we can get it available in the UK towards the back end of next year. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. And we'll get you back on to talk to us about it. Thank you so much. Dr. Emma and Dr. Agnes were speaking to me. So many of you getting in touch with your stories

on this catherine said my 91 year old mum was sent home from hospital with an untreated uti she went back into hospital seven days later confused and the uti developed into sepsis which wasn't diagnosed until after her death 12 days later she was dead so sorry to hear that my daughter suffered from recurrent utis for 10 years from the age of seven. No one seems interested in getting to the root of it. While with some consultants saying it's down to personal hygiene, she's particular about her hygiene. She often misses school or has to come home because of it. And I fear for her going away to university with this unresolved. She gets course after course of antibiotics, but everything seems short term. No idea what to do. Thank you for getting in touch. The text number as well is 84844. Now, Katie Hessel's book, The Story of Art Without Men, has been named Waterstones Book of the Year. Meanwhile, Bonnie Garmis has just been named their Author of the Year for her debut novel, Lessons in Chemistry, which has become one of the hottest reads of 2022.

The novel follows the life and struggles of Elizabeth Zott, a chemist turned reluctant TV chef. She is part Julia Childs, part Marie Curie. Set in 1960s America, she teaches the nation's housewives chemistry and cooking on her TV show, Supper at Six. Her chemical equations and rousing words dare her female viewers to reconsider not just dinner, but their place in the world. Well, Bonnie spoke to Emma on Woman's Hour back in April

when she had just published her debut novel at the age of 64. This character had been in your mind for a while, is that right? Yes, she had. She'd been a minor character in another novel that I'd started and shelved. And one day I'd had a really bad day at work. I'd faced a lot of sexism in a meeting. And when I left that meeting, I went back to my desk and I felt that this character had suddenly come back into my life. I felt like she was sitting there looking at me. And I felt like she was saying, you think you've had a bad day? Well, get a load of mine. And then I wrote the first lesson, the first chapter of Lessons in Chemistry at that point. Because her day was in the 60s. Very different indeed. And she is a scientist by

training. Yes, she is. She's a chemist. And she had a lot of barriers to get to that point. We don't want to give away too much. But her getting to this point was very pragmatic as a single mother. Yes. Yes. You know, she is self-taught. She didn't have the opportunity to have a regular education. So it is possible to teach yourself things and she is self-taught. But yes, you know, she was fired from her job for the crime of being pregnant. In the 60s, you could not hold a job if you were pregnant. So she had to keep going on her own. And I think the whole idea of how to get those messages across in the 60s to your fellow women, perhaps about the limitations under which you were living.

I mean, we talk now and perhaps forget. I know it's the 60s as well. And there's a whole other side of this and the feminism and everything that was coming. But to talk, you almost sometimes had to have a code to talk about how miserable perhaps you were, or, you know, the problem that has no name. Exactly. And I think for women of that era, you know, they were being told that they were happy. This was after World War II. They were told life was beautiful for them. They had appliances that were called avocado or harvest gold, and it was supposed to make their lives easier but it wasn't easy for them and I

think a lot of women I think that rep that entire generation is a representation of dreams that never came true ambitions that were never allowed to be entertained and I think that was that must have been very difficult to live under but that's what my mother lived under and that's why this book is dedicated to her that was Bonnie Gama speaking to Emma on Woman's Hour back in April. Now, one color has been taking over children's clothes and nurseries recently on social media, and that color is beige. of writer and librarian Haley DeRosh. She was surprised at how miserable the children looked in the marketing images for the mushroom-hued stacking cups, sludgy Amish pinafores and oatmeal bonnets and their hefty price tags.

Well, she started creating videos skewering the trend by pretending to be the legendary sombre German filmmaker Werner Herzog and giving the outfits and toys more fitting names like the locusts are coming. And in this life, the sorrows can run deeper than the oceans. I highly recommend checking out the Instagram. It's very funny. The videos have since gone viral with over 9.4 million likes. So what is it about this sad beige trend that has struck such a chord with so many? Hayley joins me now. She's got up at 4am to do this and she's got two children, I must add,

and journalist Martha Alexander is joining me to talk about it. And she's resigned herself to a multicoloured life with her six-year-old daughter. Welcome to you both. Hayley, I'm going to come to you first. Why did you start Sad Beige Clothes for Sad Beige Children? Honestly, it happened in a matter of maybe 10 minutes. I was just shopping for little stacking cups, as that the marketing that went with them was so somber and serious that the children looked like they had just like put down their Marcel Proust or something and like, oh, I should pick up the stacking cups now, mama. And it just made me laugh because the marketing was so different from what I think people traditionally think of children's marketing. You know, it's bright, happy, cheerful. And so immediately the first thing that my comedian brain went to was what's the most bleak thing that could describe this? And of course, it's Werner Herzog.

But yeah, as a comedian, I just found it to be very funny. Did you have to explain who Werner Herzog was as well? Yes, many times. But I love the fact that so many people enjoy the joke, whether or not they know who Werner Herzog is. And of course, as a librarian, my credo is always that it's okay not to know things. And it's wonderful if I can introduce Werner Herzog

to new people who maybe haven't known about him before in his work. So it's a win-win for everyone. And like you say, it's very funny regardless of whether you know the film directories or not. And we're not just talking about normal leggings and kids' clothes. These are sort of bonnets and overalls, outfits you'd expect Tiny Tim in A Christmas Carol to be wearing,

but just really expensive. Yes, there was one particular one that um just tickled me it was a pair of velvet flare pants and the child photographed was um in like a sheep field so I just it does not make sense to me the marketing for these things both the price tag I mean obviously some of these are really ethically produced and i think that's wonderful um but the juxtaposition of the price tag and looking like a Dickensian orphan or someone who is working in the farming industry these are not clothes that would ever be actually worn by those people for those particular activities and so it's just very funny to me that in a way because these things are for the upper class who can afford them, that it's, I don't want to say it's poverty cosplay. Although some people have definitely termed it that in my comments, but

I do think that there's a little bit of mismatch there. It's very funny. It is and you make it absolutely hilarious. Martha, I'm going to bring you in. You can't look at TikTok or Instagram without seeing these perfectly tidy beige nursery and the perfectly tidy matching beige children. Why is the beige aesthetic so appealing to millennial mums? Because, you know, we've heard there, Hayley, talking about the marketing. Who are they marketing at?

People who want this. I think so, yes. I think it is certainly for middle class mums and dads. It's also, you know, we live nowadays in a world where everything is or needs to be very Instagrammable. We're always camera ready. And so our homes have become more like show homes, really, for the gram, often more than livable spaces. I mean, I speak for other people, that's not the case for me. So let's talk about you then. Is this about, I guess, is this about wanting your children to fit the sort of perfect aesthetic that you want in your own life? The children should match your look.

Yes, that's certainly the case from my research and the people that I've spoke to who readily admit that they are sad beige parents they don't want to compromise on aesthetics they don't want their house to be engulfed in oceans of sequins and neon slime and you know polyester ball gowns and all of that stuff they don't want it they want scandi sparse minimalism here's the question though to those your friends who are able to do that are they just hiding all the the sequins and the polyester in a box when you turn up no they have a box and it will be a sisal box maybe or a wooden antique box um and it will have lots of very tasteful uh toys inside it um and it will be in their room I mean I don't know how people achieve this some people admit that it's because they've got very very small children who haven't yet

grasped that they've got a choice but um you know I mean I failed almost immediately what happens when you did you try oh yeah I mean when I was pregnant I just thought I was going to live in a Scandinavian utopia I was just convinced and I thought I'm not going to have any of this plastic rubbish I'm going to be so tasteful. And then, you know, it went downhill with the Jumperoo, I think. Well, it's the question of what happens, Hayley, if you let your children

choose for themselves. They definitely wouldn't end up in a beige ensemble, would they? I don't. I believe another person put it best. I don't think beige is any child's favourite colour.

My children are definitely, as one person who was very beige said, dressed like a circus, which I take as a compliment because that's their choice, though it wasn't meant as a compliment. I'm just going to try and throw in another side to this, you know, is it these clothes are very utilitarian. They, you know, any gender can wear them. They're not hyper-sexualized. They're just basic, run around, get on, go, you know, clothes. You know, that's no bad thing.

No, not at all. And I think it's wonderful if children have clothes that they can get dirty and play in. I think that's wonderful. And to that, it doesn't really matter what color they are ultimately um you know any child can wear anything really um yeah um but then often they these clothes are also being sold as an ethically good option they're not just tapping into kind of the middle class millennium mom they well they are absolutely because they're tapping

into the other side of that which is this is going to be a better choice for you than having lots of plastic waste. Absolutely. And to that, you know, I think it's really great, especially with the clothing that are ethically made. And I love the fact that I can go onto these websites and find, you know, where they're made and how they're sourced. I do think it's interesting that some of the toys that I come across that come in these shades are not necessarily any more eco-friendly than their counterparts. There was one particular set of sacking cups that looked very recycled. They had that aesthetic, but when you actually looked at what they were made of, it was exactly the same as the other materials. So I do think it's important not to fall sway to the greenwashing that can happen where you think that these colors are eco-friendly but they're really not and surely martha it's it's it's much better for the

environment to have your children in mismatched hand-me-downs i think so i think the you know sustainability is not buying buying stuff is by its very nature it's not sustainable so if people really care about sustainability and that's really where their uh you know intentions lie they are going to be looking at hand-me-downs they are going to be looking at using clothing libraries um you know we can say that stuff's organic and sustainable until the cows come home. But the reality is not buying is the most sustainable thing to do. Hayley, what you've done is so funny. And I feel like maybe for some mums, you can breathe a sigh of relief watching Hayley's Instagram videos. What do you think, Martha? Because she's just skewered it.

Oh, absolutely. She has nailed it. I howled with laughter. I digested her whole account you know the first morning that i saw it um and i think it does make people feel better i know that i had emails from um from women saying that they feel seen um and they feel that they are less sort of ashamed about the kind of mess and chaos and mismatch. And that actually, you know, it isn't all about being perfect. And there's more to life than being beige and Instagrammable. Amen to that.

We're going to let you have the final say on Woman's Hour. Martha and Hayley, thank you so much for joining me. And thanks to all of you who've been messaging me about absolutely so many messages about UTIs. I had to find out the hard way that a recurrent UTI are frequent conditions from postmenopausal women, lots of you talking about menopause. I'm currently on my seventh month of a UTI. Thank you all of you for being in touch. Go out there, ditch the beige, be colourful. Have a great weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

What happens when you combine dog shows? The Kennel Club is not overdoing it when they say it's the greatest dog show on earth and poison. The world of dog breeding has been rocked by claims that a prize winner at Crufts was poisoned. It's extraordinary behaviour. It is. Some people are ruthless.

The fear was real. People were much more protected. They didn't leave their dog for a second. New podcast, Dead Competitive. Presented by me, Kerry Godleman. Wow, look at that dog on the floor. It looks like a rug. No, I'm not a real detective. Crufts, where every dog has its day. But I will try my best.

Quite moving, that, innit? Subscribe to Dead Competitive on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.