Woman's Hour - Anya Hindmarch, Women on Boards, Rosie Aycliffe, Ruthie Henshall on Care Homes

Episode Date: May 6, 2021

In 2016 Mia Ayliffe Chung was killed at a remote farmworkers’ hostel while backpacking in Australia. What she didn’t realise at the time and what her mum Rosie Ayliffe later discovered was backpackers like Mia were exposed to widespread exploitation including sexual harassment, inadequate health and safety and substandard living conditions. Since Mia's death Rosie has been campaigning to improve conditions for young casual workers, helping to change the law in three of the six states of Australia. She has written a book about Mia called Far From Home. Anya Hindmarch is an entrepreneur, a global business woman, mother of five and a stepmother. Now she's turned 50 she's turned her hand to writing - putting together A Manual for Life with the very tongue in cheek title "If In Doubt Wash Your Hair".In the UK now more than a third (34.3%) of FTSE 350 board positions are now held by women. But what do boards do? And how can you get on one? To discuss these questions Emma is joined by Dambisa Moyo, renowned economist, named as one of Time Magazine's Top 100 Most Influential People in the World and author of a new book How Boards Work; and Fiona Hathorn, CEO of Women on Boards UK.As of Tuesday this week residents leaving their care home to go for a walk or to visit a loved one’s garden no longer have to isolate for two weeks on their return. But actor Ruthie Henshall is concerned about the potential ‘grey area’ around this relaxation of the rules which could continue to limit some families’ access. Ruthie, along with the group Rights for Residents, has delivered a petition with 300,000 signatures to the House of Commons. She explains her concerns and what she would like the government to do.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Don't forget to pack a pencil if you're going out today to vote in the local elections. You need to take your own in these very strange pandemic times. And for some of you, it will be a real day out, as you may be one of the millions now forced to work from home, joining those who've always done it or found themselves in that spot. And any moment away from the desk, even queuing down at the local polling booth, is one to savour. But as a report from the BBC shows today, a very striking report, the way that we work or some of us work is going to drastically change. Almost all 50 of the UK's biggest employers, questioned by the BBC, have said that they do not plan to bring staff back to the office full-time,

embracing a mix of home and office working. Currently, people who can work from home are still advised to do so. Some will be noting, Riley, that it is women who have asked for this flexibility for years. But how women work is something we are exploring today with one of our top businesswomen, the designer Anya Heinmarch, and a leading economist, author and active multi-board member, Dambisa Moyo. Anya, who's just written her first book

in an attempt to share some of the things she's learned on the way to turning 50, thinks emotion in business is a female superpower. And after being told in one of her own meetings to take the emotion out of something, she firmly disagreed with that person, arguing if women do have an edge in business, it's precisely because they bring emotion into it. What is your view of that, your experience, things that have been said to you, let it all out here on Woman's Hour? I must say she wasn't overly emotional in the stereotypical sense in that exchange

or certainly how she's described it. We can ask her in a moment. Do you think women bring something specific to companies, to boards? Your experience, does that show that? Or do you not buy into that? Is it reductive, unhelpful, sexist perhaps? Perhaps as a man,

you would also care to share your views on this. We are all ears. 84844 is the number you need to text. Social media you'll find us at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. Also on today's programme I'll be speaking to the actor Ruthie Henshall on fighting for the freedoms of those in care homes like her mum and why she delivered a petition signed by thousands to Parliament this week. And the story of a woman's fight to improve the protections for backpackers in Australia after what happened to her daughter. All to come here on Woman's Hour.

So don't go anywhere. And Anya Hindmarch is our first guest. So you won't be going anywhere because you'll want to hear what one of our best known entrepreneurs, known around the world for her beautiful handbags, which don't come cheap, but ironically, her cheapest one, her five pound, this is not a plastic bag, tote bag made the biggest splash.

And you'll want to hear what she's learned along the way. That bag went so viral in 2007, she had to be locked in the basement of her Tokyo store by her staff for protection as queues of people snaked around the block. She's also married to her business partner and a mother of five. And now she's turned 50, she's turned her hand to a spot of writing, putting together a manual for life, as she calls it, with the catchy title, If In Doubt, Wash Your Hair.

Anya Hindmarch, I personally find If In Doubt, reach for the dry shampoo. Good morning. Good morning. Whatever it takes, frankly. But that's the point. Try to make people feel a bit better because even somebody like yourself has been riven with doubts. I think the thing is that everyone has doubts. And that's really why I wanted to write this book. The title is a sort of jokey response to a question I often get asked, which is what's your best bit of advice for a busy working woman, mother? And I always jokingly say, if in doubt, wash your hair, because I know that by taking the extra three minutes to throw on the shampoo in the morning, it makes me a better

person all day. But it also talks to that word doubt. And I think that everyone has it. No one's terribly honest about it. And I hope that by sharing, you know, my approach to that, it might help other people as well. Now, I make the joke about dry shampoo because, yes, you have the three minutes where you have the lovely time of washing your hair. But then you've got the time afterwards to actually perhaps style it into some decent situation. And that takes the time that I can't be bothered with, quite frankly. I mentioned at the start of our programme that emotion, from your perspective, can be a female superpower. What do you mean by that? Well, I remember the accusation very clearly in a meeting once where someone says, Anya, which is when there was your name, it's slightly aggressive anyway,

Anya, you must take the emotion out of this. And I wish I'd had a better retort at the time I didn't, which still annoys me. But I strongly realised at that point that actually that's what we bring to the equation. And it's incredible. You cannot build a business, nor a family, nor many things, I think, frankly, without emotion. So I think we should embrace emotion. And I bring it wholeheartedly to the workplace and certainly to the family. So we should not be ashamed of it. It feels like a bit of a blow to women. So we must claim that as our superpower. But you weren't being overly emotional in that moment? No, absolutely not. I was actually just suggesting and claiming what I thought was right and indeed fair.

So it was an accusation. It was a low blow, which, you know, it was just one of those things. And it happens. But my point is, it was a lovely moment for me. The realisation of thinking, actually, it's a strength, not a weakness. You talked there about doubt, everyone having them. There's quite a big doubt you had about yourself and your ability to run your own business, which led to an extraordinary about-turn where you sold your business and you've bought it back. Well, I took an investment and sold part of the business. And that wasn't out of doubt, necessarily. It was actually out of the fact that the business was growing very fast. We had stores all across the world. I was managing five children. I felt that, in a way,

I needed to focus on one of the two roles I had. I was both CEO and also doing the creative role, and I felt that I wasn't getting to either 100%. So, it was really about growth more than doubt. However, doubt, of course, snakes its way through every aspect of what we do as women, as working women, as entrepreneurs, as mothers, as stepmothers, all those roles that we have. And I think that we must try to look on doubt as actually a real advantage in life. It's something that pushes you on. It keeps you grounded. It makes you the best version of yourself in many ways. So I think we must embrace doubt as something that actually makes us really good I say that because

also you did talk about this in the book that you you had this thought that somebody else could take that role and do that growth part and that's what I meant the bit about doubt although I recognised there was a structural reason as well and I'm also just minded while we're talking you do speak in the book about a fear of public speaking. And I hope you're finding being on the radio OK. No, terrifying, obviously. It's an interesting thing. I think you can develop. For me, I was in a singing competition when I was very young and had a bad experience. And it really traumatized me, actually, and took me years to get through it. And I had brilliant help from someone who does this amazing thing with NLP, neurolinguistic programming, which in one session got rid of my trauma.

And so I think the point is you can, your brain's incredibly clever and things that you think are not possible to sort of get over, you can actually with the right attitude. So I just try and share all those things and all my experiences and all the aspects of doubt I've had and how I either have managed to get around them or not. But it's still okay and it's very normal well it's interesting to hear doubt being used in that way to keep you fresh keep you on your toes but you also talk about self-confidence and self-belief being like a muscle that you can that you can build up and I actually love the bit in the book where you talk about how you get your ideas how you need your brain to feel and I wondered if you could share that well so it's interesting especially I mean for all of us having to come up with ideas but ideas, how you need your brain to feel. And I wondered if you could share that. Well, so it's interesting, especially for all of us having to come up with ideas, but especially in a creative world where you are being relied on to come up constantly with lots and lots of ideas.

And I find that actually I have to feed my brain, which of course is quite difficult with all the museums and exhibitions sort of shut at the moment, but to keep things going in, which I then bank either subconsciously or actually quite actively bank with a sort of system like maybe Pinterest or just record them with my phone. And then I go back and sort of graze them later. So there's quite a process to it. I often find actually to be creative, if you're just looking at a blank piece of paper, that sort of bleaches my brain almost. I find that very intimidating, but actually surrounding myself with images that I find interesting or inspiring, subconsciously just sort of prompt ideas. That and sometimes a glass of wine as well, just relaxing and letting it free flow. Letting yourself fantasise and think. Because, yes, sitting down at a desk with nothing in front of you is awful.

No matter what you're doing, if you're just trying to come up with something. So you start with an image there or something that you've been keeping meticulously on Pinterest or on mood boards or things. I mean, yours is obviously specific to your line of work. But that's I think not a lot of people talk about how they come up with ideas. They talk about the ideas themselves. And I think and I think it's quite important that you write about that because I never trained to to be a creative. I sort of started myself and so I had to work out my own system. And I definitely find I need to be surrounded and inspired.

But I also recognize, and I write about this too, which is that there's a creative journey through any idea where you start off with an idea and you love it and you think it's amazing. And then it gets a bit difficult. And then actually you find it really hard. And then you actually, you start to hate it. And then at the bottom of the dip, you hate yourself.

And then you climb back up again. And actually it's okay. And maybe it's going to be all right. Actually, I quite like it. And then I love it. And when you're in that dip, which you have with pretty much any creative journey, I think, or any creative decision, you have to recognize there's always going to be that tough point. And now I know that it's actually easier. I know we'll come out the other end. And you just have to kind of hold on tight. I bet you were thinking about that locked in that basement in Tokyo when your tote bag went viral. That was a slightly ridiculous moment honestly which felt a bit silly but it was it was a very interesting project I mean 80,000 people queued in the UK for that bag and 30 people I

think went to hospital in Taiwan which of course I'm not at all proud and we stopped it immediately but the point is it made a difference that project and and it shows that actually fashion I think can be a good platform for inspiring people to change the way they behave. And I think that's the interesting part of fashion. And it galls you to admit that that was actually your husband's idea? Well, it does call me to it. Yes, it does, actually. And it's very, especially on public radio. Thank you very much for that. You are welcome. But I did want to get on to that because you do work together. And I think a lot of people, you know, even if they know nothing about the Gateses, they associate, you know, marital couples, Melinda and Bill this week, Melinda and Bill Gates,

they're announcing their splitting. You know, people sort of took a moment and thought we thought they'd be together forever. They work together. They do all of this. They sort of attach something to it. It made me feel quite sad, actually. But I think, you know, it was a very elegant response. I'm a great believer that you owe it to your children to be happy, actually. And I think that, you know, if you can't be happy together, I think it's really worth really trying.

Because so often we've all seen people who've given up too early and actually sort of two years down the line, probably net and net and not in a better situation with all the damage and pain they've caused and so on. But I do think that, you know, you owe it to your children to show them what happiness is so um I'm always obviously very respectful of people and their choices but it is um it would seem it seems sad I think all of us felt a bit disappointed by that one yes it's funny how it seemed to strike something but you you talk about your family interspersed with your business throughout the book and I find that very refreshing and important because you also talk about if you're stressed you've told your children why you've let them in on that and a big priority of you is also if you're not okay that that thing on planes where it says we don't really remember getting planes anymore but where

it says put your own oxygen mask on first makes sense because you've got to be okay for them to be okay and I actually think that one of the best bits of practical advice from a parenting perspective but it's also linked to you being able to function as a business woman, is you have this thing called beat the clock. Do you want to just explain that? Because it's about you getting sleep, which I love. Well, I always think that someone once asked me, what's the thing you're most scared of in life? And I said, it's the thing I'm most scared of. It's not not getting enough sleep because I'm literally 10% of myself the next day. So, yes, I had to come up with a negotiation with my younger children where they understandably wanted to go out in half term and have a good time. They finished their exams and I had a board meeting the next day. And so actually my son Bert came up with a great idea, which he said, listen, you're a working mum.

And there are other mums that aren't working in the gang that we want to go out with. So, you know, we'll share it. But also we'll have this system where I set my alarm for a certain time, maybe it's a generous two in the morning, and he has to be back to turn the alarm off before it goes off, which means it saves the negotiation. And it gives me that checkpoint that if it goes off, I know that he's in trouble. So what you hear is children literally banging up the stairs and slightly sort of boozy breath, but it doesn't mean that I get as little interruption to my sleep as possible and he gets a bit of fun. So new traditions. It's genius. Our son's three, but I've written that somewhere to remember it. And I know you're a fan of lists and labelling, but beating the clock so you can get at least a stretch of sleep without the concern, I do think

is genius. Final question, if I can, for all the time that we've got left. Do you think women bring something different or is that sexist to the workplace? What do you make of that question? You know, I don't really think about being a man or a woman or whatever gender. I just think about being a person. And honestly, that's how I see people in my company. I forget, you know, skin colour, freckles, no freckles, short hair, long hair. I just think it's irrelevant.

It's what they're like. And I have a lot of very feminine male friends, a lot of very masculine girlfriends and everything in between. So I think what's important is diversity. That's what is, you know, is right. It's what's interesting. It's what's smart and it's what's fair. And so I think we have to make sure that is reflected. That's really my stance. And you're still working on dividing the emotional labour a bit better at home because you're the one who still often does the thank you notes over your husband. You know, we're getting there. I think my point there is that we all have these roles.

This is what I call the sort of the transition generation where, you know, suddenly I'm the person who has, I'm working as hard as my father did. And yet I still have the role model of my mother in my head. So I sort of feel automatically that I should write the thank you letter, even though my husband and I both went to the dinner. This is why you need dry shampoo. Anya Hindmont, we're going to have to leave it there. If in doubt, wash your hair.

Manual for life by Anya with some of her advice there. A lot of you getting in touch about emotion, just to go to a couple of these messages. Helen says, men on boards are just as emotional. Most decisions I've witnessed were often made through anger, pride or fear. Do not ignore male emotions. Well, I'm sure Dambisa Moyo's got a view on this. A renowned economist named as one of the Time magazine's top 100 most influential people in the world and author of a new book, How Boards Work and How They Can Work Better in a Chaotic

World. And Fiona Hathorne, Chief Executive of Women on Boards UK, whose big mission is to increase the gender diversity of boards in all sectors across the country. And I should say where we're standing at the moment with the gender side of this, more than a third, 34.3% to be precise, of FTSE 350 board positions are now held by women. But what do boards actually do? and how can you get onto one? Dambisa, good morning. I'll put that first question to you. Hi. Good morning. What do they do?

Yes. So, what they do, it's very clear the mandate for boards is it's not some cryptic thing. It's actually embedded in legalese. There are three points. Number one, we provide oversight to strategy. So, what is the company going to do today, tomorrow, and in the future? Number two, we hire and in some instances fire the CEO. It's really an important role because we know that the CEO imbues the organization and is a standard bearer for a lot of values as well as performance. So that's the second role. And then the third role, quite frankly, is something that's become much more important in the last decade that I've been serving on boards

of large global and complex organizations. And that's to say this cultural frontier. So it's really in two parts. It's really bedding down those non-negotiables like professionalism and excellence, but it's going beyond that to think about the new ESG environmental, social and governance agenda, things like climate change, things like obesity, gun control, voter rights, worker advocacy, areas of racial and gender discrimination or certainly parity. And so it's a much bigger agenda and there's much more

expectation that boards and corporations that they serve are stepping to the plate. I know that you came to it a slightly unconventional route. You were trying to get on and then writing a book distinguished you. And you already were distinguished, but you sort of found a different way to be noticed. I just wonder, is it fun? We always hear women on boards and then it's sort of, you know, followed by the sort of stuff you've just talked about, which is incredibly important. And I know Fiona is going to talk through non-corporate boards as well in a moment. But what would you say to that about whether it's worth the effort? Because it's huge responsibility.

Well, you know, you're absolutely right. Not only did it take me ages to get onto my first board, but also I was incredibly an unconventional board member. I'm black. I'm a woman. I'm from Africa and I was 39 years old. And also I hadn't come through what they call the traditional C-suite where you'd been an ex-CEO or an ex-CFO of a company. But I must tell you, I absolutely love it. And I think there are many aspects to how corporations work, all the areas of the macroeconomic challenges and the macroeconomic environment, but also the real discussion around opportunity and the ability to have that impact to help contribute to human progress, to me, is priceless. Yes, of course, the issues are sometimes incredibly difficult to deal with. Of course, is priceless. Yes, of course, the issues are sometimes incredibly difficult to deal with. Of course, the pandemic is top of mind. But if you look back in history, boards have been in existence since 1600. So we've had several centuries going from World War I, World War II, the Industrial Revolution, and so on. And looking ahead, I just think in terms of jobs, in terms of the tax base, and of course, in terms of innovation, as we've seen with the rollout and the vaccine,

you can have a really opportunity to stamp your increment tour and really help to move the world forward. And I love that every single day. Fiona, Dabisa sort of sold it to us, I think, for some of us anyway. But, you know, it is a huge opportunity and it doesn't just have to be at that corporate level, does it? No. And what's been described to us, you know, the board sets the tone and the culture of an organisation. And in society, there are thousands and thousands of boards. Almost everything that you look at, whether it's a hospice, a theatre, a charity, a school, a university, a housing association, has a board structure. And they really, really matter.

And, you know, a lot of people don't have exposure to the boardroom from a young age and they don't really know what it does. And so, you know, my job running Women on Boards is to firstly help people sell themselves better into the boardroom, but secondly, plant the seeds, tell people about the boardroom from a young age, because the more you know about it, the more you aspire to be in the boardroom. And your point is also, if you're on a career break, enforced or by choice or whatever your circumstance, these are the sorts of things, whether it's your local sports club, the parish council. I mean, who doesn't want to be on a parish council after Jackie Weaver? If you don't know what I'm talking about, Google is your friend. But, you know, if you are in a bit of a moment in your life, it can also provide something to you. Yeah. I mean, if you take a career break,

and we take a career break now for a whole host of reasons, it's continuity of your CV. Yes, you can join the PTA and raise funds for your local school, or you could be on the governing board of that school. And it makes a real difference. And it also gives you exposure to leadership, governance and oversight from a very young age. I asked a question to the chief exec of RBS, Alison Rose, when was the first board you ever went on? And she said 15. She was a lifeguard. And, you know, you're never too young. And they needed lifeguard representatives on the local lifeguard association. And she puts her hand up. That exposure then resulted her being on the debating society board when she was at university, the hockey club board, the rowing club board. This was all before she'd even left university. And that knowledge of oversight brings you along to finance.

It brings you on to people skills, all sorts of things. You can learn more than actually in your degree by going on some of those boards. So it's knowledge of that. So anybody listening to this, you know, talk to your children, talk to your nieces, talk to anybody and tell them about the boardroom. It's not rocket science. Most people learn on the job. So that's my job. Yes. And Dambisa, to come back to you in terms of representation,

we were just hearing from Annie Hindmarch there about how important diversity is. But we were also talking about whether women bring something unique. But she talked more there about the importance of actually different people from different backgrounds. Where do you come out on that? And are you do you think we're post quota or we haven't even got started with them? So at a very high level, the jury is in, right? The numbers are very clear. So even if you're sort of a cynic about this whole agenda, the numbers are patently clear, whether it's're sort of a cynic about this whole agenda, the numbers are patently clear, whether it's on return on equity or return on invested capital. Companies that have

more diversity at the boardroom level, in the C-suite, or in more generally in a work base of an organization do better. They have better financial results. They are able to withstand risk and challenges more. They are more competitive. And there's no doubt about that. And so in that respect, this is an absolute no-brainer. Now, you're right that if you look at the numbers, certainly racial diversity, we've seen a massive lag. We've obviously done much better with respect to women. And obviously, the numbers are over 30 percent now. It's something that has happened in an incredibly short period of time. I remember 12 years ago when I joined my first board, I was the only minority, both visibly in terms of my race, but also my gender on the boards on which I served.

And that's changed materially because finally the sort of city and in general people have figured out that this is high value ads. So I'm highly supportive. The good news is that there's so much talent out there. And in much the same way that I ended up on boards as an unconventional board member, we are now forcing and certainly encouraging corporations to widen their aperture as they think about candidates. But are you saying do that by quotas, by the stick or by encouragement? I'm saying that there are a lot of women who are phenomenal accountants, amazing lawyers, people who've got human rights experience,

environmental experience, things that are needed to form complex decisions. And we don't have to say, oh, the pipeline for boards has to be somebody who has been a CEO and only a CEO. We can widen that aperture. And I'm an example of that. And hopefully rely on that. You brought up racial diversity there. You just talk about a different board or review panel. You have been very recently in the news as one of the commissioners appointed to the Government's

Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities, which published for some at the end of March, what was a controversial report for some, finding the headline, finding that the UK no longer has a system rigged against people from ethnic minorities. There was a huge response to that. Do you stand by what you put out with your fellow commissioners? I absolutely stand by that report. I mean, Emma, it's quite tragic, actually, that the conversation level has just, you know, trended downwards. That was not what we said. We were very clear. We were like, there are absolutely racial disparities in the United Kingdom and elsewhere. We were also very clear that to the extent that disparities exist in the United Kingdom and beyond that, it's not just about race. It's about where people come from.

You know, people, a girl who's growing up in Bradford, Bangladeshi background, has materially different outcomes in education than a similar girl, Bangladeshi born, who's raised in London. Two black boys on an estate, one with the African lineage and another one from Caribbean lineage, have materially different education outcomes. Personally, I think that parents who are smart are going to read that report and say, gosh, there are a lot of puzzles in here that are going to actually make parents and other care providers think about how we invest resources. And we put out 24 amazing recommendations and we're just waiting to hear what the government says. Exactly. The government is still looking at that. I think it's very important that you talked about what you put in there in more detail, as you just have, and also the fact that you do still stand by it. I just wondered, because we've been talking about emotion, passion, response.

You do put yourself into these things. When you got that response, how did that feel? And did you regret being a part of it? Because it was for some people you could have thought, well, this is a headache I didn't need. Not for a moment. You know, I love something that President Obama said. He said by the time something hit his mailbox or his inbox, it meant it was incredibly difficult. If it were easy, somebody else would solve it. I love complex problems. And I'm sorry that the narrative gets usurped by people who aren't interested in really moving society forward. I am a constructive person. I'm not into deconstructive narratives or deconstructive agendas and very much open and welcome to have conversations with people who want

to move society forward. I have absolutely no interest and no time to sort of entertain a conversation that leaves us in the status quo, particularly at a time when inequalities are widening, especially and worsening for people who look like me around the world. That's what we'll also pick up on that subject at another time in more detail, which I'd be very welcoming of. And I'm sure from what you just said, you would be as well. But it is something that people think about now, you know, what they put their name to and then how they deal with it afterwards. And that sort of plays into what people are thinking about when deciding what career opportunities to get involved

with. So that's why I wanted to hear how that had felt on the other side of things. Many messages coming in about what you've been doing at work and what women bring to it and if there's any specifics there and also your experiences of boards. Dambisa Moyo, thank you very much for talking to us. Your new book's called How Boards Work and How They Can Work Better in a Chaotic World. And Fiona Hathorne, Chief Executive of Women On Boards UK. Graham's got in touch, just on a separate note. I said right at the beginning of the programme, you might be thinking about, or don't forget to pack a pencil

if you're going out today to vote in the local elections. And I said, you need to take your own in these strange times. He says, don't need misinformation about polling procedures. You don't have to take your own pencil. You can take your own one if you wish. The government are encouraging it. So I will, there you go, Graham. Listening. I always am. Thank you for that message. And I'm also getting messages to talk about passion. That's what a lot of working work adverts say now. It's all about passion. And that's being aimed at men just as much. Emma, don't forget it,

reads another message here. I will not. Keep those coming in on 84844 and your experiences too, or any views on what you've just heard. Perhaps you've also been part of a board and it has changed your life and your experience. At BBC Women's Hour on social media to tell us your take. Now to the story of a woman fighting

for the memory of her daughter, but also for the rights of those who may end up in similar situations after backpacking to keep them safe, as she would put it. In 2016, Mia Eichliff-Chung was killed at a remote farm workers hostel while backpacking in Australia. She'd ended up working at the farm in an attempt to extend her visa for a second year. To do that, she had to fulfil the 88-day rule, which meant getting a casual job on a farm. She found herself at a hostel, forced to share a room with a man who worked as a supervisor on the same farm. This man, Smail Ayed, had a psychotic episode and

fatally stabbed her and another backpacker, Tom Jackson, who later died from his injuries. What she didn't realise at the time, and what her mum, Rosie Iliff, discovered later, was backpackers like Mia were exposed to widespread exploitation, including sexual harassment, inadequate health and safety, and substandard living conditions. Since Mia's death, Rosie has been campaigning to improve conditions for young casual workers, helping change the law in three of the six states in Australia. She's written a book about Mia called Far From Home. And she took me back when we started our conversation to the night that Mia was killed. Mia was in a

working hostel in North Queensland, and she was in a room with a man who had become obsessive about her and had talked about her to many of the occupants of the hostel. My understanding is that she asked to move rooms and wasn't allowed to. That night, she was going to bed very early. She told me she was going to bed early because she was so keen to get her farm work done. So she was in bed early and he dragged her out of the bed onto the landing um and stabbed her uh she was lethally stabbed at that point and then ran she was fighting him she'd fought him to get away from him and at that point um he did a sort of head dive off the balcony, but managed to land well because he was a jujitsu practitioner.

And so he landed safely. Tom Jackson went to check him because he didn't realise what had happened. Meanwhile, I'd called Daniel Richardson was with Mia in the bathroom and stayed with her until she died. And Daniel sat there and had no idea why he wasn't killed too. So he survived. My gosh. What was going through your mind with very limited information about what had happened to her and why this had happened? I thought it was just one of those things that she'd been

in the wrong place at the wrong time. I phoned the hostel almost to offer my condolences to them for having been through it. And then I found them very guarded and they were telling me what a lovely man I had been, which I thought was bizarre. But, you know, fair enough. That's what they felt they needed to do. But, yeah, so that's as much as it registered at that point.

When she was travelling, were you aware of the 88-day rule and the sorts of conditions she was living and working in? I was aware of the 88-day rule and that's that. I mean, she was working and she didn't want to go and do her farm work. She desperately didn't want to go and I didn't know why. I just assumed, like most youngsters, 1920 year olds, a little aversion to that level of hard work. I thought it was Camp America, basically, that they would be put in safe places that had been regulated by the government and, you know, that were working to a certain set of principles. And that was what I thought was going on. And what was going on instead? What is going on still is it's the Wild West, basically.

Our young backpackers, young migrant workers from all over Europe and Asia arrive in Australia. They decide they want a second year out there. A lot of them are dreaming about staying out there because of the conditions that they're coming from. So they're not middle class gap year students, as has been suggested. They're from all over the world and they have to do this 88 days to get a second visa. And they go into the unknown. They have to go to the outback.

They have to go to the furthest reaches of Australia to get these days ticked off. Always remote areas. And they don't know what's at the other end. There might be a completely compliant, well-run farm with keep you imprisoned for as long as it takes, you know, for as long as it takes for you to get out. I have so many stories about the abuse. It's not just, I mean, it starts at underpayment and it starts at a hostel like me is where they take the passport away from you so you can't leave. They then give you very little work. So the accommodation is extremely expensive. You pay for transport. The accommodation could be rat infested. It could have no sanitation. It could have no fire escapes. And when you've got

no money and your passport's been taken off you, you're incredibly vulnerable. Even if you manage to get your passport back, you can then be released in the middle of the night into the outback. Well, you've been fighting this, haven't you? You've been fighting to change how this is and I know that you've actually had some success in changing the laws and the rules in some ways, but it doesn't go far enough for you. The thing is that this is a country-wide,

an Australia-wide federal scheme. And yet the changes that have occurred have only occurred at state level. So the first thing is if a perpetrator, if a criminal wants to carry on recruiting backpackers, they can just move across the state boundary. So that's part of it. Plus, the backpackers don't really know which state they're in half the time, let alone which laws apply. So the regulation needs to be at federal level, but also there needs to be some sort of enforcement of the scheme and that's what's missing that that

enforcement and you know the stories about the uk and how we treat our migrant workers occasionally these stories pop up and it's really distressing what's happening we have somewhere for people to go to to report that and we have an enforcement agency which is UK wide and which has the powers of arrest and can just zoom in on these situations and nip them in the bud. And, you know, I know I met people through campaigning who contacted me and said, this is what is required out there. This is what they want. This is what you need to campaign for. And that still hasn't happened. They've now got a Modern Slavery Act and the backpackers are mentioned on Hansard as part of the modern slavery issue. Are you so driven to doing this, apart from all the obvious reasons

of it's the right thing to do to try and improve people's lives and their rights when they're trying to satisfy a piece of legislation effectively? But are you so driven to do this because of your daughter, because of Mia? Yes, absolutely. When I first started hearing the stories, I started to realise how dangerous it could be. And then I'd get stories about deaths.

And, you know, I was in a position to recognise how somebody's life is destroyed by the death of a young person. And those deaths would affect me physically. I would just break down. There was one young woman, sorry, a German woman who was working at height. Now, I was a climber and I knew from the outset that she had not had the proper training to work at height because she'd gone back to her position without her harness on. And she'd fallen really taken or she'd fallen to a death. And I flagged that up immediately. But then not just independently of me, the union took it up and there'd been a whistleblower before she died.

And it's almost as if these migrant workers don't have the same value as Australian young people. And we can understand that because we can relate to our own children better than to those from abroad. And that's the battle because they can be seen as parching gap year students who are just out there to have a good time but when you start analysing who they actually are then Australians start to listen and that's been the battle. She was your only child is that right? That's right. How are you now? The campaign and writing.

I'm a writer anyway, so that's my therapy, really. So I've campaigned and written a book, and between those two, I'm in a better place than I ever thought I could be. I mean, before Mia went away, I said to my husband, if she doesn't come back, I won't survive. I won't get over it, you know, if anything happens to her. And he said, I know you won't, you know. So to be in this place now where I can function and we're running a business and I can do the things that I want to do and I'm functioning and happy.

I never thought that would happen, but actually facing it full on and talking about it almost infinite number of times to the Australian media has helped me to function, has helped me to recover. That's been my therapy. You are my therapist. You know what, though? It's very true.

When you talk on the radio, it does do something, and it also does something to the millions of people who are listening to this. You will be touching them and educating them, but you're also talking as someone who lost the you know, the greatest love of their life. And people will also relate to that in different ways. I feel, you know, I've got to ask this. Just tell us about Mia.

How should we remember Mia? Mia was, she was beautiful, but she was beautiful inside and out. She had a kind of spirituality about her. And I'm not the only person who's noticed this. She decided she was a Buddhist, aged eight. But before that, she told me about a previous life. Now, you can believe what you like. You can take from that what you like.

But she was too young to be making it up, if you know what I mean. But she was just, she was too young to be making it up, if you know what I mean. But she was just, she was fun. I would say that locally, no party was a party until Mia got there. She was so popular, so well-loved and so naughty and fun. That was Mia. Thank you to Rosie Iliff there talking. A spokesperson for the Department of Home Affairs in Australia about our previous part of the conversation says

the Australian government is committed to ensuring migrant workers are protected from exploitation or abuse regardless of their citizenship or visa status. Now, as of two days ago, residents in this country leaving their care home to go for a walk or to visit a loved one's garden will no longer have to isolate for two weeks on their return. But the actor, Ruthie Henshall, is concerned about the potential grey area

around this relight-sation of the rules, which could continue to limit some families' access to their relatives. On Tuesday, she, along with the group Rights for Residents, delivered a petition with 300,000 signatures into Parliament. Ruthie, what was your petition calling for and how do you see this as a human rights issue? Well, basically what it has become is a postcode lottery because although the government have given guidance,

they are not, the homes are deciding whether they're going to take this guidance or not. And it's leaving some relatives and residents without any kind of meaningful contact with their loved ones. And this is truly, truly happening more than you would wish to think. Because it's guidance, not because it's the rules. That's absolutely right. And the care homes, because it's guidance, they can do what they want. But they are also, you know, some of them said, well, you know, we're scared of the fact that, you know, we won't be insured if we get an outbreak of Covid. But if you're following the guidelines and you're actually following everything that you have to put in place,

the risk assessments, all of that, then surely you can't be sued. The reason this is so important to you is because of your mum, isn't it? It's because of Gloria, who I believe turns 88 this weekend. She does. She does. And within the first four months of the first lockdown, she lost the ability to walk, to talk, to eat without her food being mushed up. Her drinks have to be thickened. And that all happened because she was four months in a room on her own with no stimulation whatsoever. And we have to remember that everything comes into a care home, you know, the entertainment, the people. And so if you're not bringing anything in, they are literally sitting in chairs, you know, passing away basically through loneliness and isolation and it is absolutely criminal what's going on because people are still not getting in to see their loved ones and like my sisters I mean I am

a carer now I'm an essential caregiver which means that I can go in any time now every single person who's a resident in a care home should be having an essential caregiver. And that means, I mean, I have to take my test and everything, you know, before I go in. But we have to remember that these residents have had their vaccinations. I've had one of mine. We're following all the safety precautions. There is no reason why these homes should not be opening up. And it is criminal that they're not. I suppose the pushback has been around those care homes having to take great care, especially because of what did happen at the beginning of the pandemic.

But as you say, we're in a very different part of this now. Happy birthday, if I may, to your mum for this weekend. And I know she'll be surrounded by love and others will be thinking of theirs as well and how to have access and be with them. A Department of Health and Social Care spokesperson said, we know how difficult the last year has been for people in care homes who are among the most at risk from COVID-19. Residents can now leave their care home to spend time outdoors. This is another significant step towards normal life and is taken in a way that will help protect homes, care homes from the continued risk of COVID-19. We recognise each care home has a unique layout,

physical environment and facilities. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm Glenn Patterson and I'm here to tell you about my new Radio 4 podcast, The Northern Bank Job. It was the biggest bank robbery in British and Irish history, and one of the most daring. Carried out in the middle of a busy city centre at one of the busiest

times of the year. With missing millions, burning banknotes and precision planning, it is all the elements of a Hollywood heist movie. But this actually happened, and its consequences could not have been more far-reaching. I'll be telling the story of the robbery through the words of the people who were caught up in it and those who dealt with its chaotic aftermath. Just subscribe to The Northern Bank Job on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

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