Woman's Hour - Aparna Sen, Midwives, Marged Sion

Episode Date: July 1, 2022

Aparna Sen joins us in the studio. She's one of India's best loved and most successful film directors. Her career has spanned 40 years and she's explored issues around mental health, sexual abuse and infidelity. Aparna is in England for the London Indian Film Festival.The number of NHS midwives in England has fallen by over 600 in a year, according to figures by the Royal College of Midwives. We talk to Birte Harlev-lam from the Royal College of Midwives, as well as a midwife in the West Midlands. What's the reason behind this drop? We talk about what it's like to be a plus-sized actor. A new Matilda film is coming out starring Emma Thompson who will play Miss Trunchbull. It means she'll wear a fat suit for the role. Two plus-size actors, Katie Greenall and Samia La Virgne, give their reaction to the casting, and share their experiences of being a bigger actor.Welsh singer and dancer Marged Siôn is with us. She's in the band, Self Esteem and appears in a new Welsh-language short film called Hunan Hyder which means self-confidence). She talks to us about trauma, healing and appearing on stage with Adele! And we catch up with Gina Harris who at 82 has cycled from Lands End to John O'Groats. It took a month and she faced rainy days and tired legs!

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Very big welcome to the programme now with the London Indian Film Festival continuing this week. We'll be speaking to one of the most successful directors in Bengali cinema. Aparna Sen has won too many awards to mention during her 40-year career, breaking barriers and shining a spotlight on societal issues such as class, power, sexual abuse and infidelity. And these themes are all part of her latest film, The Rapist, which will be debuting in the UK this week. Excited to say that Aparna will be with us live in the studio shortly.

Also, many of you will be excited by the new remake of the much-loved classic novel Matilda. A film trailer was recently released, but not everyone is sharing that excitement, and that's because the actress Emma Thompson looks to be wearing what's been described as a fat suit in the film. She's playing the part of the head teacher, Miss Trunchbourne, wears prosthetics

to make her look plus-sized. Now, some have described it as a step backwards for the industry, with roles being taken away look plus-sized. Now, some have described it as a step backwards for the industry, with roles being taken away from plus-sized actors. So how are larger women portrayed in film and who gets these roles? I'll be discussing all of this with two actresses who have strong views on why fat suits are so offensive. Also this morning, we'll be talking to singer and performer Marguerite Sean.

She's part of the group Self Esteem and will be supporting none other than Adele at Hyde Park tonight and tomorrow. Marguerite is featured in a new Welsh language film which aired this week. And in it, she discusses trauma, addiction, recovery, friendship and also about healing from sexual assault. And we'll be catching up with a woman who's just cycled the entire length of the UK. Yes, it wasn't just the tired legs she had to overcome, but also rainy days as well. It took her a month to complete and she's raised a lot of money in the process. And so it got us thinking here at Woman's Hour. What's on your bucket list?

What life goals would you like to achieve or have you already achieved? You might not have cycled from Lane's End to John O'Groats like she did, but perhaps you've done something else that you're really proud of. It can be big, it can be small. Get in touch with us. I need to have a think about this myself as well, actually. You can text us on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

On social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. We'll be speaking to Gina shortly, who made this epic trick. As much as anything, we just need to distract her from the exhaustion, no doubt, that she's feeling after cycling that far. So all of that to come, but first this morning, the number of NHS midwives in England has fallen by over 600 in a year, according to figures by the Royal College of Midwives.

Just over a year ago, Culture Secretary Nadine Dorries, who was then a health minister, said that England was 2,000 midwives short in a letter to the Health and Social Care Select Committee. The Royal College of Midwives now say this increasing shortage puts even more pressure on maternity services that are already understaffed. Bertie Harlev-Lam is the RCM's executive midwife director and Jennifer is a midwife in the West Midlands. Good morning to you both. Thanks for coming on the programme. Bertie, I'd like to ask you first, how do you explain this fall in numbers? How are there 600 fewer midwives? Oh, it doesn't look like we're able to hear Bertie at the moment, which is a shame. Have we got Jennifer there? Jennifer, can you hear me?

No, that's a shame. I was hoping to get an idea there of a view of why NHS midwives in England have fallen by over 600. As I was saying, these are figures that have come out recently by the Royal College of Midwives. And as I say, this is still a big issue because the culture secretary, Nadine Dorries, has already spoken about this. She already warned when she was a health minister that England was 2,000 midwives short. So clearly things haven't improved. And hopefully now we can speak to a couple of midwives who can tell us more about the situation to find out why the situation is worsening. Have we got Bertie? Can you hear me, Bertie and Jennifer? Good morning. Yes, good morning.

Ah, there we are. Fantastic. Technology failed us for a moment, but we will persevere. But Bertie Harlef-Lam, as I said, you are the RCM's executive midwife director. So firstly, just give us an idea of why these NHS midwives are falling in number. Why are there 600 fewer? Good morning. And so what we're seeing at the moment for the first time in about 12 years is that a month on month where there is a reduction in the number of midwives, we've always seen an increase in midwives month to month until about a year ago. What we're hearing from midwives though is that actually the main reason they're leaving is because they're very dissatisfied with the level of care that they can give.

Midwives come into the profession to look after women, to give them the best possible care and the safest care that they can. But with the staffing levels as they are now, it's a real crisis. And midwives are finding themselves in a situation where they simply cannot give the level of care that they would want to and that they come into the profession to do. Now, Jennifer, you work as a midwife in the West Midlands. Do you relate to what's being said there? Is the job more high pressure now? It is high pressured. We're exhausted frankly every shift is short staffed sometimes up to six midwives short on a shift which is dangerously low staffing levels but we we're not a service that can close we're not like elective operations that we can say actually we can put this off until we've got more staff because the babies have to be delivered so So we've just got to keep going.

And you say dangerously low there to describe staffing figures. I mean, what are the consequences of having so few midwives? Well, as Bertie said, you can't give the proper care. So ultimately things will get missed, mistakes be made and obviously horrifically the worst case scenario is that women and babies will die and that's exactly what the Ockenden Review found earlier this year wasn't it Bertie but how much of this is about retention how much of this is about encouraging new people to to become midwives and train up as midwives uh afraid we've lost bertie uh once again technology is not our friends this morning

jennifer i'll come back to you um you you know you obviously said about how dire the consequences are then babies will essentially die how do you cope with knowing that, you know, your shift is often short staffed? There aren't enough people to do the jobs that you need to do and you can't always offer the level of care that you want. We just have to keep going because we don't have an option to stop. So we've still got to keep going. We've still got do the the best that we can under um ever increasingly pressured circumstances because you know as i say you can't stop a baby being delivered so you know we just have to keep going but often we're working 12 hour shifts with no breaks you know lorry drivers lorry drivers have to have a break after six hours. We often get no break for 12 hours and we're literally holding life in our hands.

How is that safe? But we've been saying this for a very long time and we're still not really being listened to, not at government level. Bertie, I think we've got you back now. How much is this issue to do with retention? How much of it is to do with not being able to encourage new people to become midwives and train up

um it it absolutely is a retention issue um what we do see is that there is um an oversubscription to uh young people wanting to join them withwifery profession. So we see lots of applications to university to want to become midwives. But it's the retention. And what we see is particularly in the first five years after qualifying that that. Oh, it looks like we've lost Bertie again.

Bertie, we're having trouble hearing you. I'm just going to go to a tweet because someone from who's listening in has got in touch and it's very pertinent, I think. Jude has said, my daughter is a midwife. She's exhausted and overworked and feels she can't keep women safe and care for them well. She's leaving to go to New Zealand to work there. She called me in tears last night. The stress is too much for you, Jennifer.

Have you considered leaving the profession i haven't considered leaving because i do absolutely love it i mean it really is the best job in the world it's such a privileged position um i have considered alternate roles so within midwifery um you know retention as you say is a massive issue even retention of students because we have students coming through now who's seeing what the reality is don't want to work as midwives once they're qualified and and that's just shocking really because it's a really difficult course to get onto um as better said it's massively oversubscribed. So to think they're going to go through those three years of training and then not even work as midwives is it's just so desperately sad. What do you think the solution is? How do you feel like we can make this better, Jennifer?

Well, we need the staff need to be better supported. They took away the supervisor of midwives role some years ago um when i was newly qualified and i think personally i think that was a mistake um we um have a there's a tendency in midwifery to promote managers from within so you might have really fantastic midwives who then go on to become managers well being a good midwife doesn't make you a good manager and we see a lot of managers who actually have no idea how to manage people so then the staff don't feel cared for by the managers and if you don't feel cared for and supported by your managers then where have you

got to go when there's an issue and there's also a massive bullying culture in midwifery. So, you know, it's not a simple solution of saying, give us more midwives and it'll fix it. There are real sort of systemic problems that need to be dealt with. Bertie, I think we can talk to you now. We've got you back on the line. How aware are you of all these issues that Jennifer has mentioned has mentioned about the bullying culture about not having someone to speak to manager managerial wise when complaints crop up um we're absolutely aware of them and and it's something

we hear and it's certainly something um that midwives tell us that part of of the problem and we see the shortage of midwives, and of course everyone is really busy and they need the support to keep them in the job and to help them when they're particularly stressed or they have issues they need to talk about. And we do hear that there are situations where either the management team is not available

or midwives, senior midwiveswives surround to support midwives working clinically at the time when they need it, not the next day or the day after, but actually being available in real time to support midwives working clinically. And that is something we see. And we know, for example, the Ockenden report did absolutely pick up around the culture so that some of that incivility where people are not being spoken to in an appropriate and kind manner and that sense of being bullied which is is part of why midwives are not wanting to stay as Jennifer has mentioned Bertie though this is still happening right now if this I mean it's not a new issue so

so why is it taking so long to to implement changes here I mean even as I mentioned Culture Secretary Nadine Dorries mentioned all of this over a year ago. It really goes back to it's it's a complex issue but it does go back to investment into maternity services absolutely investment into the front line so that we have more staff but as jennifer was saying it isn't just about more staff it is actually also about having those senior staff around who provide that support because if you don't have enough senior staff they're not available and if they're stressed then they're likely not to be as approachable or as available and we need to help teams come together obstetricians midwives support workers and everyone that works in maternity need to come together and work as a

team and that takes that relationship and keeping that at a level and with the kindness that it needs. It's not just working together clinically, it's training together. So all the updates you have to do every year, make sure those teams are doing those updates together. Those are the solutions that are needed. Yeah, and you mentioned finances there. Well, earlier this year, £127 million was pledged by NHS NHS England with 50 million allocated to trusts over the next two years. That's to boost staffing numbers in maternity and neonatal services. Is that is that working? Will that help? Of course it will help. But of course, we need we need midwives. We need those midwives to come into the services.

We do have to train them. It takes three years to train a midwife. So there's something about this long-term shortage of staff we've had where we've not trained enough midwives. So it takes time to get more midwives into the unit. But there's a lot that services could do to support those midwives and that retention piece. So we know that we have an ageing workforce. We know that midwives retire and may well be willing to come back

and work shorter hours, daytime hours, where they could provide that support. So we want services to look at solutions where they have retire and return midwives who may be coming, can support students, can support newly qualified midwives who may be coming, can support students, can support newly qualified midwives as they're practicing. And that's the type of thing that we would like to see happening. And for you, is that money enough? Does there need to be more? There needs to be more. There's been a chronic underfunding of maternity services for many, many years, for over a decade. And so this is a good start, but it's absolutely not enough.

And also, Bertie, you might have seen as well that a new study of 6,000 children has found that breastfeeding boosted brain development in disadvantaged mothers' babies. What did you make of that? So it's a really interesting study. And we do know that there is now evidence around the cognitive development for babies that are breastfed but of course it's also about making sure that there is enough support to help mothers who want to breastfeed and who choose to breastfeed so that they are being given the support 24 hours a day seven days a week. Of course midwives play a massive role in helping women to be able to breastfeed don't they?

They absolutely do. But of course, we go back to some of the issues around staffing levels. So the thing about helping a woman with her breastfeeding and breastfeeding her baby is that you need to have time. You need to have that unhurried time to sit with that woman and support her as she learns how to breastfeed her baby. And that's some of the things that we're seeing where midwives are short and where their workload doesn't allow them to spend time with a woman because they have to move on to the next. That support is lacking and it's certainly lacking out of hours and at weekends, for example. Bertie, Jennifer, thank you very much for joining us on Woman's Hour this morning and for giving us your views. Thank you so much. Now, many of you would have read the story of

Matilda as a child, I'm sure. It's a much-loved classic, but in case you just, you don't know the story, here's a quick synopsis. It's about a six-year-old girl called Matilda who hates life at home, but finds sanctuary in her school teacher, Miss Honey. But there's also Miss Trunchbull, the head teacher who hates children. A new remake of the film is coming out later this year and Emma Thompson will be playing Miss Trunchbull. The actress has been seen in the trailer wearing prosthetics to look bigger. Some people have called it a fat suit. It started a debate about the way plus-size women are represented in film

and who gets these roles. So yesterday I spoke to Katie Greenle and Samia Laverne, who are both actors. And I started by asking Katie how she first felt when she saw the new Matilda trailer. I think there's this feeling whenever I see a fat body or know there's going to be a character like that in a trailer or a film. Immediately, I don't feel excited. feel nervous I feel scared I feel this like tension I don't get that like enjoyment and excitement of like representation I feel nervous and like to then see the trailer and to see this prosthetic this fat suit appear in that trailer just like affirm that belief and you know it's a sigh it's um another

film that I don't want to go and watch another thing that space I don't feel comfortable in so not a nice feeling certainly what about you Samir did it fill you with dread as well when you saw the the trailer it's uh it just was a big eye roll it's uh very. I don't understand why it's necessary to use fat suits when there are plenty of we find a larger person with an athletic build to play that versus using Emma Thompson? I understand that she is she is a really good actress and she's well known. However, I feel that there are plenty of people out there who haven't been given an opportunity to play that role. Well, yeah, in the original Roald Dahl novel, Miss Trunchbull is described as gigantic. She's also described as a former Olympic hammer thrower, as you mentioned.

Her weight, though, isn't specifically mentioned. So why do you think it's been interpreted in this way? There's something that, like, instead of reading this as, like, you know, the description is muscular, but we, in a kind of Hollywood level of that, we suddenly jump to, it's a negative character, it's an evil character, therefore it's not muscular, it's fat. Because there is this really insidious perpetuation of this narrative that like fat equals evil. That spans so many, particularly like children's stories and narratives but across Hollywood in general and so

Emma Thompson is an amazing actor someone that I personally admire but what's happened here is is someone has been put in in a in a fat suit their body is being changed in order to continue to perpetuate this idea um to dehumanize fat bodies and to continue to perpetuate this the systemic um oppression of fat people i cannot take my my fat body off at the end of the day i spent my you know a large portion of my like from from 10 to kind of 20 thinking wishing that i could take my fat body like the fat off my body at the end of the day like it was velcro like these people can do and i now i'm spending time building my fat body like it's a home, like it's not a temporary space that I will inevitably change.

But what we're doing by continuing to cast people who aren't fat in these roles is continue to dehumanise bodies like mine. And it's incredibly upsetting. Would you agree with that, Samir? How have you seen that negative stereotype, that association between evil and fatness? How have you seen that manifest in your career? You know, I'm not only plus size, I am also a black woman and I'm also six feet tall. So I have this horrible intersection of marginalization as seen by Hollywood, right? And even in theater. And so

in my own career, there's been a lot of times where I haven't even been considered for roles, where I've played a lot of male roles, where people automatically assume that I'm just funny. I mean, I am a funny person, but I don't like, you know, I want to, you know, where I was wanted to be considered for more drama, I was always considered for comedy. And, you know, not being considered as far as a love interest, because who would love a six foot tall fat black chick. And, you know, no one actually said that aloud. But there was an instance where this is theater, I was auditioning for a production of Macbeth. And they kept recalling me, which was wonderful. As an actor, you love to get multiple recalls.

And as I got further in, they kept bringing in different actors for potential Macbeths. And then when it finally came to the casting, when I got contacted, I was offered the role of a witch because they couldn't find a Macbeth for me. And that's what I was told. I turned down the role because I got another offer to do something else. However, that was very hurtful. What was that supposed to mean? They couldn't find a Macbeth for me. Why couldn't they envision the slew of actors that they brought in? Not one of them could be paired with me. So I think there's this big issue with casting directors not being able to think outside the box and to see and view bodies, fat bodies, tall bodies, you know, Black bodies, Asian bodies in ways that are not stereotypical, right? I've been so many mammies. And so mammies,

it's like, I'm here to nurture you and take care of you and take care of your children, but I don't have any sort of life of my own nothing sexual about me um and so I believe being six feet tall I am the height of you know a slightly taller than the average height of a man and so um I just think it's really hard for people to wrap their idea their mind around the fact that oh a tall woman could be in a romantic relationship with someone who's shorter than her I've dated a lot of men who are shorter than me. Amazing. And this is part of the reason why you don't like your name being shortened, isn't it? Yes, it is. Because it's very masculine. There have been times where people walked up to me and said, excuse me, sir. And yeah, so I don't like when people, you know,

my name is Samia and people try to shorten it to Sam or Sammy. And it literally makes me cringe because I feel like I'm being defeminized. So I say, okay, if you need to shorten my name, call me Mia, but not Sam, you know. Understood. I will definitely be calling you Samia. Katie, tell me about the types of roles that you're offered when you go into theatre,

when you audition for films. Yeah, I mean, it's been a little while since I was doing the um that auditioning thing it's something I've moved away from in my practice now and um yeah make my own work or work with young people and communities so um those roles like particularly when I was at drama school though were yeah that fat funny friend character or often playing um the older kind of downtrodden housewife or um the like you know the family matriarch or even sort of the domestic um help or support if we were doing more like period stuff

and you know those are lovely and there's no like those those people do exist but like the average size in the UK is a 16 like fat bodies exist all over the world and yet we never see fat people um live in their lives like I've never been asked to play a part where I wasn't um in some way my body wasn't part of um the story in some way or also perpetuating you know further you know misogynist ageist ableist um ideals of like what what bodies could be and so yeah the parts that i play um i played you know particularly at drama school where and you're being offered these roles for example the older housewife when you're in your mid-20s yeah yeah i've got a casting through like kind of unprovoked as i say it's not something i like go up for auditions

really at the moment but like um apart for like for someone to work on a cruise in a sitcom that was in their 40s and like I don't know I don't know how they found me or why but like you know why on earth would that be um a part that I was playing and why why is this happening what what do you think this tells us I think it tells us that um you know there is effort there is movement there is conversations about like how we view bigger bodies but we can it feels a bit like we're shouting into a void and like those things don't aren't we aren't necessarily moving at the pace I think we could be I think the other thing is that like it's really easy for fat folk like fat people to to be a common enemy or for us to um make fatness synonymous

with being lazy or being um letting ourselves go which again is like is reeks of misogyny and you know when when women have children and they put on weight and they they're not able to lose it that's also a type of role that you've been you've been asked to play and like you know yeah it's not something yet when i was at drama school like yeah there were these roles where it was like I was I played um a wife whose husband was cheating on her like you know and you know what does that say about people in bigger bodies what does that say that we have to that women um female presenting people have to be in order to like their man to keep up with them that you know again you know it's heteronormative it is um yeah misogynist and I and I think it's really boring. Katie for you how often are these fat

suits used in Hollywood is is this just a one-off with Emma Thompson or is this something that's happening all the time? I wish um there are some really obvious examples of you know Monica and friends we do these these big um you know flashbacks to a former life where she was fat and completely undesirable and like that forms a big part of her narrative with um with chandler about how he actually hated her when she was fat and now look how lovely it is because they're married like you know looking through um online about when fat suits have been used there is i mean i'm really happy to be wrong here but there is never an example i have seen where a fat suit has been used to praise or appreciate or to portray fat people or people in bigger bodies or plus size people in kind and loving ways there

is absolutely no like examples that i can think of and again i'm happy to be wrong um can you think of any examples there samia no i No, I completely agree with Katie. I have not come across that sort of example yet. It's usually to vilify, to make fun of, in some cases to hide pregnancies. Or if the actor, at times the actor is portraying a real person, it's telling a happening uh and so they choose an actor that happens to be much slimmer who's portraying an actual person an actual event and yet we're gonna throw them in a fat suit i mean uh renee zellweger just did it yeah um yeah and we talk about intersectionality here samir and it's interesting isn't it how you were saying how you were offered roles, male roles, essentially, when you were auditioning for things.

But there is a history here, isn't there, of black male actors using fat suits and using them to portray women. Yes. Yes. I was just thinking about that as Katie was speaking. Yes. For me, you know, looking at the use of fat suits, it's mainly fat suits. When they're on women, they tend to be white women. I really haven't found many examples of fat suits being used for women where it hasn't been a white woman. There are men in fat suits. But then when it comes to black women, right, we have, you know, black men portraying black women in fat suits, such as Eddie Murphy, Martin Lawrence, even Tyler Perry, his whole Medea situation. I think if we had enough representation of fat bodies in more positive ways and more nuanced ways, then potentially the horrible use of these fat suits would not be

quite as bad because we had something to balance, encounter that narrative, but we just don't have that. And so image is very important. It's very impactful. And when people see things on television, they see things on, you know, on film, they start to equate that to people that they see a thing on um you know on film they start to equate that to people that they see right in everyday life and so it starts to reinforce or give people ideas about fat bodies that just aren't true actresses katie greenle and samia laverne and we've had quite a reaction from you listening to that in particular i read this message that's come in from helen she says we need to stop getting offended and making such an issue about weight a reaction from you listening to that in particular. I read this message that's come in from Helen. She says we need to stop getting offended

and making such an issue about weight and enjoy the production for what it is. Fee has also messaged in to say Emma Thompson is an actor. Matilda is not a reality show. So what are we saying that no actor can play a character of whom they don't already look like? So what do we have makeup, costume

departments for? Acting is all about not being yourself. But of course, as Katie and Samir mentioned, plus-size characters aren't always shown as three-dimensional characters. They're only shown in a negative light. Thank you very much for your messages. Next. Look up, lean back, be strong Next.

I have some uplifting lyrics for you this Friday morning. Now, our next guest is part of the group Self Esteem, who you've just heard there. And they'll be supporting Adele tonight and tomorrow at Hyde Park. You might have also seen them perform at Glastonbury last weekend as well. The group are all women and sing about female empowerment and confidence. These are topics close to the heart of one of their members, Margit Sean. Now, Margit features in a new Welsh language film which aired this week, and it's called Hynan Hadaer, which means self-confidence.

It follows Margit as she discusses trauma, addiction, recovery and sisterhood. She also talks about being a survivor of sexual assault and how performing has helped her to heal. Very excited to talk to you this morning Marguerite. Good morning, how are you? I'm good Jessica, it's so good to be here. How are you? Brilliant, I'm really excited about talking to you and how excited are you about supporting Adele? That is big time, forget about Glastonbury. I know, it's mad. I think like you kind kind of you do Glastonbury on Saturday and then it's Friday and then you support Nadal and it's like okay as as weeks go that's not a bad week to have is it it's a bit mad yeah it's a bit mad I'm excited any pre-stage nerves ahead of tonight are you still at the point where you get nervous I think I I do get nervous I kind of try and channel it

into anger a bit more now like I think before Glastonbury I kind of try and channel it into anger a bit more now. Like I think before Glastonbury, I was sort of like jumping around, like throwing my fist in the air and just being like, let's get it. So, yeah, it's good. I think like I've had like a good amount of years of experience now to sort of know how to channel those nerves. Yeah. And as I mentioned, you were featured in a film that's airing this week. And I think I got a sense of that vibe, that energy that you bring on stage is absolutely fantastic. I really appreciate you coming on today to talk about something so personal. And I'd like to touch on that because as the documentary, as you talk about and as you discuss in this documentary, you were raped when you were 21. You're going to be 30 in two weeks time. So why have you chosen to talk about this

something so horrifying now I think it's I think to be honest I I've always been quite open about my the rape that I endured and um and I think but I always wanted to put all of these processes sort of in one um creative outlet um you, when I think that two years, well, I think it's two and a bit years ago now, when I was 27, I kind of had a nervous breakdown and I was sent into recovery for addiction issues. And the last two years of my life have been just so transformative in terms of where I am in terms of my healing. And I think that I just had this want and this need to put it into a creative place.

And working with Carys Hughes and Cassie Wynne on this film, you know, Welsh women that I've been friends with since, I mean, Carys since I was born, really, and Cassie since my teenagers, it just felt, it was a really organic, it was a really organic process where it just sort of happened. It wasn't necessarily something that I planned, but I just knew that I wanted to do it in some format. And this was the format that it, that it turned out to be. And you mentioned there that in the last

two years, your life has really transformed. What was it about this, this last two years that has really helped in that healing process? I think, I think time and slowing the pace down for me was, was really important. Um, I think as a performer and a creative person, I think that I'm always sort of searching or like seeking, there's a sense of urgency, you know, you feel like, um, this has to happen now. And, um, and you're sort of always chasing something, um, not maybe quite sure what that thing you're chasing is. And, you know, I got sober a week before lockdown. And I'm not saying that lockdown happened because of me and my recovery, but it definitely helped, you know, for everything to shut down.

And not just, you know, your normal stuff like the pubs and stuff, but just even the creative industry. And I was able to just take stock and just really put that time and energy into myself. And how much has performing helped with that healing process? I got a sense that in the film, whilst you do talk about trauma and you talk about sexual assault, there's also an undeniable sense that you are on a journey of self-discovery and you're also recovering yeah i mean it's just for me that that whole process and um could you repeat the question say that again sorry sorry what was that margaret did you just repeat the question yeah i i say that you you clearly

found some solace in performing has that helped you through the healing process? Because whilst the documentary that you made was about sexual assault, it was about the trauma you've experienced. You're also clearly going through a journey of self-discovery and recovery as well, aren't you? Yeah, I think, sorry. Yeah, that's right. I think the performance stuff for me, I mean, it's always been a place of solace.

I think growing up was the place that I felt most myself, even through nerves and even through, like, I struggled with stage fright when I was growing up. But, you know, it's always been a place where I feel that I'm able to just be myself and to show all sides and, you know, the dynamics of who I am and not feel that I have to apologise for that. Because maybe in day to day, you sort of,

you feel like you have to apologise maybe a bit more than what you would if it was a choreographed set where you know exactly where to bring the emotion and where to put it. If that makes sense. It does. There was a really interesting part of the film where you say, if you behaved on stage, if you behaved like that in life, you wouldn't feel safe behaving that way, performing that way. Why is that?

I think, I mean, the first thing that I think about, there's a lot of things I could answer that. But I mean, even just the anger stuff and the sort of, the feeling as someone who's been womaned in my life and the hysteria that people put on you. So if I react in a certain way based on an experience that I've had, then I'm being hysterical or I'm being out of line or I'm overreacting or it didn't happen in the way that I thought it did. Or, you know, the gaslighting that happens for women, I think is systemic. And I, yeah, I think that's the sort of biggest thing

that I've sort of experienced on stage that I can't really take out into the real world because of those sort of judgments and consequences maybe that I would face yeah you've decided as well to to make this film in the Welsh language there are English subtitles which is obviously how I was able to watch it but why was that important for you for for the film to be in Welsh so Welsh is my first language um And, you know, I think coming from a culture which is a minority culture with a minority language, I think that it's, you know, I haven't heard anything in my mother tongue that represents my experience. I think that is due to a lot of stuff. And I think that the older generation maybe don't like to talk about stuff in a way that maybe our generation is a lot more open.

And also, I think I'm really interested in how quickly, you know, language around trauma evolves. And maybe because the Welsh language is sort of a quite an old, well, it's a very old language. And this is not to say that it's a language that can't keep up. But I think the terminology is like takes a bit longer to to sort of seep in um and so but I think that the most important thing for me was was to speak and experience um in the language where I haven't heard that stuff being spoken about before um what would you like people to take away from from this film when they've watched it? You know, I would really love people to take away the agency that they have. I felt for a really long time I didn't have any agency. And I think that it's, you know, I say in the film,

you know, you have to create your own light, I suppose. And, you know, if you're able to do that, then do it. But for me, you know, again, it didn't, you know if you're able to to do that then do it um and but for me you know again it didn't you know as you said it happened you know the sexual assault happened to me when I was 21 like it's I'm 30 next week and so it's taken me nine years to get to this point it hasn't been easy and it hasn't been like okay you can create your own light and it's like you know you know toxic positivity and all that that's not that's not what I'm saying. But I think that that there is joy and there is laughter still. And I think that that's really important to hold on to as much as recognizing the pain. Margot, thank you so much for detailing your experiences as well.

Say hi to Adele for me later tonight and enjoy your birthday in a couple of weeks time. Thank you for coming on Woman's Hour. Thank you so much, Jessica. Have a good day. Thank you very much. A reminder as well that Adele will be sharing her Desert Island disc this Sunday at quarter past 11. You will not want to miss that. Now, as Margaret mentioned, performing at Glastonbury was one of the things on her bucket list, but how about this for a life achievement? 82-year-old Gina Harris has

cycled from Land's End to Jono Grotes. She faced rainy days, she faced tired legs, but she was determined. She finished a trip last week after a month in the saddle. She did it to raise money for Women's Aid and Refuge, and Gina joins us now. Good morning, Gina. Great to speak to you.

Oh, great to speak to you. Thank you. Welcome to the programme. So you finished your epic trip last week. How are you feeling? Your legs must be completely exhausted. Well, they got used to cycling, so that it seemed more normal to be on the bike than off. In fact, when I got in the car with my son, who came up to cycling so that it seemed more normal to be on the bike than off. In fact, when I got in the car with my son who came up to bring me home, I was so stiff I could hardly get out of the car. I'm not surprised. But those cycling, you just get a little bit stronger every day and you get used to it. So tell us what you raised because you've raised a decent amount of money and why you decided to donate that money to Women's Aid and Refuge.

Well, in the first place, I did it for them. During the lockdown, I'd heard all about the increase in domestic abuse and the appalling things that happen. I mean, I think it's two women a week get killed. But it's worse than the killing is the torment they suffer. They are put down in every way. They lose their self-respect. I could go on. They are, and they're children. So I was saying to my son, this is really terrible. I didn't know about it before. I wish I could help them. And he said, you know something, you could do a crazy stunt.

And what a stunt it was. And you decided to take it on. Was there any nerves, any trepidation or did you always just assume you could do it? I don't know. I didn't assume I could do it. I just thought I'd give it a bash. And I thought, well, if I'm lucky, I'll do it. But if the weather is really against me, terribly strong winds, I don't know. I'll just have to do the best I can. Yeah. I mean, talk to me about the weather, because we all know what it's like in the UK. It's very unpredictable. What was the worst weather you faced? Was it terrible the whole month? Oh, no, no, no, no. It was, well, on the last day, which I only cycled a very short time,

it was beautiful, sunny all day um no i think that when i cycled um quite a a mountainous road to the bridge of bonar it was bad i had the wind against me about 40 miles an hour it was just frightful i'll give up now oh my goodness And what motivates you? What is it when you're tired You're mentally fatigued The weather is coming down What is it about you that said I can do this, I'm going to keep going Well, something nice always happens

Quite shortly afterwards One minute I'm thinking I'm not going to do this anymore And I had so many friends help me. I had a friend that he was actually following me that day in a car and he turned up with some delicious biscuits and some coffee in a flask. Oh, that's just what you need, isn't it? A biscuit and a brew.

And then a bit later on, there were some sheep in the road. And later on still, there were some baby calves who were so sweet. Mind you, I was slightly worried about their mums, who looked rather defensive and aggressive, but they didn't go for me. What else happened? Oh, so many amazing sights. Like somebody came along in what looked like a homemade motorcycle. Oh my goodness, fantastic.

You really did have an adventure. And am I right in saying, Gina, that you are the oldest woman to have completed this journey? Has that been confirmed? No, I think they're going to take ages to do that. Okay, but it will be a record. I mean, how important was that record to you, if at all? Not important. I did it to help the charities,

because once I'd fixed on those charities, I desperately wanted to help them. But, no, how many women like discussing their age? We can go around concealing it. I spent my whole life concealing it. Now I have to shout it. Yeah, now everybody wants to know. And you took up cycling in your 50s, didn't you?

What has cycling brought to your life? Oh, a lot of fun and wonderful experiences, meeting people. Yeah, when I was in my 50s, I thought, well, my children are growing up and what will I do? And, you know, again, to do something elderly people do. Actually, I got to think that 50 wasn't so very elderly after a while. We've had some messages come in, Jean. I just want to read a couple out to you someone has said that in 2018-19 i ran a marathon for every letter of the alphabet the challenge took me across the uk and europe and china and canada for the quebec marathon and someone has said i'm gearing up for

london to paris pardon the pun they say my first lengthy cycle and I'm so excited. Any tips for them, Gina? Well, I think they're way above my league, aren't they? I wouldn't presume. I simply couldn't do it after all. I mean, I took quite a long time to do it because of my age. I am the first person to do it this age, but I was pretty slow. I don't think that's slow. I think that's very impressive. We've also been thinking a lot, Gina, this morning about Dervla Murphy, who passed away last month, age 90, was an inspiration to many in the cycling world. Were you aware of her and what she had achieved? Oh yes, she was a great travel writer

and I did read her books. I wouldn't say I could ever follow her because, well, she's so way, way different from me. If you've read anything by her, I mean, sight slightly across Africa, across really seriously difficult places, difficult terrain. No, I couldn't. I couldn't follow her. Well, I mean, what you've achieved already is pretty phenomenal already, Gina. Thank you so much for coming on. You rest up and I'll be looking out for you when they confirm that Guinness World Record, because that's exciting. That's impressive. Thank you for your time this morning. And may I

just ask you one thing. Could you just give out my blog details and my Just Giving details? Yeah, we'll do that. We can put that on our socials for you, no problem, so that people can help donate to some

brilliant causes for you thank you so much Gina Harris for coming on the program this morning now Aparna Sen is one of the best loved and most successful female directors in Bengali cinema she's won countless awards during her 40

year career possibly too many to mention having broken down barriers and explored issues such as mental health, sexual abuse and female desire. Aparna will be debuting her latest film, The Rapist, at the London Indian Film Festival this week. And I'm pleased to say she's with me live in the studio. Good morning to you, Aparna. How are you? Good morning. I'm fine. Great to see you. We'll come on to your film in just a moment. But first, as I mentioned there, you've won so many awards, a lot of my lived experience that went into it. And so I suppose people just found some truth in what I had to say.

Yeah, I sense as well that when you make a film, for example, the latest film, The Rapist, which we'll come to shortly, explores some very important societal issues. Is that something that you always seek to do? Explore taboo or thought-provoking subjects? I don't consciously do that. I don't think I consciously do that. What happens is when things happen in society, when things happen around me, they affect me. And I don't immediately, I don't always make a film about things that affect me, but some things that affect me start a kind of series of images in my mind. And that's when I know that it is crying out to be a film. So I've been thinking about a lot of rape that's been happening in our country lately. A lot of rape.

It's always been there, but now it sort of gets publicized. But apart from the fact that rape is about power and not sex. Apart from that, I thought that isn't society also responsible in some way for churning out rapists in these numbers? You see, there's this patriarchal mindset, which is very, very deeply ensconced, and it's very difficult to get rid of it. And it's there everywhere, not only in slums, not only in, you know, middle class society, not only in affluent societies. It's there everywhere. Even places that we consider kind of sacrosanct, like universities and so on, it's there. So I think that's what finally, you know, leads to establishing male superiority over female helplessness.

And these are the issues that you have chosen to speak about. Now, you also sit on the jury for various film festivals, both in India and internationally. So you see a lot of the films that are being made. Are you happy with what you're seeing from the next generation of female directors around the world? Are they exploring similar issues to you? Would you want them to explore similar issues? Oh, yes. I can think of two people right away. I mean, for instance, Nandita Das in Firak.

She looked at the Gujarat riots. And then again in Manto, she looked at what Manto went through, you know, his kind of lived experiences that led to his stories. Then there's my daughter, Konkuna Sainsharma, who just made a brilliant film called Death in the Gunge, where she explores toxic masculinity. And the central character is a man, quote-unquote, female virtues like gentleness, kindness and so on, that are not celebrated, that are not, you know, exalted in our society at all. How has representation for women in Indian film changed over the years, do you think? Oh, a lot, I think. For the better?

For the better, yes. When I first started making films, you know, there were very few. There was Vijay Mehta and there was Sai Paranjpe, who were very good directors. But they didn't make that many films, you know. Then I was there. I was also fairly sort of taking my time over making films. Then now there's been a kind of explosion. Earlier you had to scratch your head

and think, well, who apart from Aparna Sen, Vijay Mehta and Sai Paranchpe, then, you know, then there were a lot of them making films. Now there's Konkona, there's Nandita, there's Gitu Mohandas, there's Seema Power, there's

Alankrita Srivastava. I mean, one could just rattle off. I mean, I checked the other day on Google and I found about 150 to 200 names. And how short would that list have been when you first became a director? Well, about, I don't know, about five, maybe. So there's definitely been an improvement there, which is fantastic.

And also there are producers who are women, a lot of actors, female actors turn producers or directors. They've had exposure to the medium throughout their careers. And so it's easy for them to understand what it takes. Now, you mentioned power already at the beginning of this interview, and that's a big part of your latest film, The Rapist. So just explain how you explored that power dynamic between rape survivor and rapist. Well, you know, being a film director, you're concerned with images, you're concerned with what you see on the screen.

So visually, the power structure was that the girl who's raped, Naina, she's on the ground, you know, and the rapist is kind of tarring above her. Then later on, when she meets the rapist in prison, the power dynamics have changed visually as well, because then the rapist is kind of thrown on the floor by the guard who brings him in. And Naina, who's come to interview him, is standing or sitting at a chair. And then gradually, as they begin to understand each other, they start coming, you know, a sort of, I wouldn't say bond is too strong a word, but something begins to form between them, some sort of understanding. Then, you know, you have them both sitting at the table and that's when they're more equal. And the funny thing is, and that I don't know how feminists will take this, though I'm a feminist myself, is that the woman, Naina, she begins without knowing to enjoy her power over this man. So power is something that really doesn't differentiate between genders.

A woman in power can be as cruel as a man in power. As a female director, when you're recording a rape scene like that, how important was it for you to get that right? Is there a way you can get it right? I don't know. Getting it right. I mean, what is right? Exactly. So what I did was I don't like, you know, explicit violence or explicit anything. It was suggested more than anything else in my film. And also

it was often from the victim's point of view, like when she's being dragged on the ground. And you don't show it in one continuous scene as well. No, I don't. I keep breaking up the rape scene, you see. And what she sees, for instance, is the moon through the branches of the tree

above her, which is a strange thing to see. But I've seen that, you know, this kind of thing has a tremendous effect. In fact, in a film that I made called Mr. and Mrs. Iyer, there was a Muslim guy, an old Muslim, who wore dentures. And all we show when the Hindu extremists take him down

is that later on in the morning, next morning, his dentures are lying on the ground. So, and I, there was a collective gasp from the audience, you know, because they sort of were shocked at this. Clearly. But you've had a good reaction because it's debuting,

isn't it, today? Well, tomorrow, sorry, at the London Indian Film Festival. Yes, it is. I'm so pleased about that. That's brilliant. Aparna Sen, it's been brilliant talking to you. Thank you so much for your time this morning.

Good luck with the debut at the London Indian Film Festival. We've had lots of people getting in touch about their life goals that they've achieved. Someone said, we're driving from the UK

to southern India in 1997 in a 1985 Land Rover Count as something to be proud of. Yes, I think it would. Thank you for listening to Woman's Hour this morning. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Stephen Fry

and I heartily recommend you listen to the BBC's history podcast, You're Dead to Me, because, well, one, you can join me in learning all about Frederick the Great of Prussia. Two, it takes you on a historical grand tour from naughty nuns who became stitching sisters to a globe-trotting Maghrebi. And three, well, it's fun. And don't

we all need a little bit of that at the moment? You can find it on BBC Sounds, don't you know? So subscribe to You're Dead to Me and have yourself a giggle as you learn. You've earned it. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.