Woman's Hour - Archie Panjabi, Cricket, Energy management, The untold story of parliament’s working women

Episode Date: June 27, 2023

The actress Archie Panjabi made her film debut in East is East and then went on to play Pinky in Bend it Like Beckham. She won the Primetime Emmy Award in 2010 for Outstanding Supporting Actress in ��The Good Wife”. She joins Nuala to discuss her latest role in Hijack, a thriller that follows the journey of a hijacked plane in real time across seven hours and seven episodes. The English Cricket Board has been told to secure equal pay for its male and female cricketers by 2030 as part of the report by The Independent Commission for Equity in Cricket (ICEC). The report also found that racism, sexism and class-based discrimination are widespread and deep-rooted within the game. Sports commentator and journalist Georgie Heath joins Nuala. Do you breakdown your ‘to do’ list into hours and minutes? What if you broke down your day into how much energy you had instead? For years people with medical conditions like M.E and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome have used Energy Management Techniques. Could we learn a thing or two by using the techniques, even if we don’t have extreme fatigue? Nuala talks to Lauren Walker, an Occupational Therapist and Charlie Thorne, who was a city lawyer before she became burnt out. In 1911 Emily Wilding Davison hid in Parliament so she would appear on the census as having been there. But far before her, there were women working within Parliament who held much more power and influence than you might expect. Mari Takayanagi is a parliamentary archivist, and has written a book alongside Elizabeth Hallam-Smith that tells the stories of these unknown working women, from cleaners to housekeepers to typists. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lucinda Montefiore Studio Manager: Sue Maillot

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Today I'm wondering, how are your energy levels? Did you start this morning thinking about how much you have to do? Do you have time to do it all? Well, two of my guests would say we need to change that thinking. So don't think about time management, but think about energy management. Do you recognise what fuels or perhaps drains your

energy? And does it affect how you prioritise the tasks you need to do? Are you good, basically, at listening to your body? Well, those of you with certain medical conditions may have been doing this for a long time, right? Knowing how much you can push without hitting a wall of tiredness. But for others, perhaps not as attuned to that way of thinking, this could be a game changer. I saw one tip that I'd like to implement. Scheduling time purely for thinking or perhaps for doing nothing at all. No meeting, no events, chores. Just have that part of your diary so that energy levels can be resuscitated and revived. So I'd like to hear, how do you manage on days that your energy levels are low? And how does it compare with what you achieve when they are high? I want to hear your stories. I want to hear

your tips. That number is 84844 to text us. We're at BBC Women's Hour on social media or you can email us through our website. And for WhatsApp or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. You might have been hearing in the news there about the Independent Commission for Equity in Cricket.

They have a report that's just out. And I saw that the English Cricket Board has been told to secure equal pay for its male and female cricketers by 2030 as part of that report. So we'll discuss whether it's achievable.

Also, the actor Archie Panjabi. We've loved her on so many shows. We're going to speak about a new show, Hijack, out today. That'll be in just a moment. And also, Necessary Women, the untold story of Parliament's working women, from typists to domestic workers to politicians' wives. We're going to hear all those stories. But let me begin with Archie Panjabi, who has starred in so many award-winning films and TV series, it's hard to know where to start. She made her film debut in East is East, went on to play Pinky,

the conventional sister of the secretly football- mad Jess in Bend It Like Beckham. She won the Primetime Emmy Award in 2010 for Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Drama Series for her portrayal of the intriguing and mysterious Kalinda Sharma that was on The Good Wife. That performance led to the New York Times to name her one of eight actors who turned television into art. And that's not all. She played alongside Angelina Jolie in A Mighty Heart. She went on to star in two BAFTA-winning Netflix BBC series, The Fall, opposite Gillian Anderson, as well as Shetland. And now she's playing alongside Idris Elba in Hijack.

So this is a thriller that follows the journey of a hijacked plane in real time across the seven hours and seven episodes and it launches on Wednesday, the 28th of June on Apple TV. Actually, I was getting a day ahead of myself there, wasn't I? It's because I watched a couple of them last night and it had me on the edge of my seat. Archie, welcome. Oh, thank you so much. It's very nice to be here. It's great to have you. I believe it's your first time on Woman's Hour and we've a lot to discuss. But shall we start with Hijack? How would you describe how, I suppose, this production came about and what's particularly unique about it? So I was sent three of the scripts and I read them

and I just could not put them down. I phoned up my agent and I said, can I please see the remaining four? And she said, you don't want to do it. I said, oh, no, I want to do it. I love the project, but I just need to know what happens to those passengers. And I thought that's exactly how audiences are going to feel when they watch the show is just so gripping. It keeps you on the edge of your seat right up until the end. I think there's something because it's so much of it is set in the plane that anybody who has traveled on a plane realizes it can be pretty claustrophobic to begin with. Absolutely. And I always think with flying, for me and people I speak to, there is this fear and fascination with it. How does this small little cabin,

like a mini home, fit up in the air? And what happens if something goes wrong? What do we do? So I think people always have that fear, particularly after 9-11 and just flying in general. So I do think people are going to feel when they watch this, what would I do if I or my loved one was up there? How would I handle such a situation like that? Yeah, it is. There is a fascination with airplane stories always in the news and also in drama and I think perhaps it's also that microcosm of society that that can be around you absolutely what's interesting about this is it also shows you how strong the human spirit is because usually we get on a flight and we don't want to even talk to the person next to us right we just want to say a brief hello we don't want to even talk to the person next to us. Right. We just want to say a brief hello. We don't even want to have eye contact because we just want to relax.

It's our only time going back to your point about energy. It's the only time we can really recuperate. Phones are switched off. So suddenly to find yourself and this is what happens in the show. People start talking and communicating and bonding. And like this mini family starts to appear. And I guess that's what happens in a crisis. It tells us so much about our human spirit that when we're in a situation like this, you know, we bond, we connect, we work

together. So hijack, obviously, that will tell us what happens with the plane. But you play Zahra Ghafoor, a counterterrorism officer on the ground who becomes part of the investigation. You know what, maybe we'll play a little clip first, just for our listeners to hear a little bit. So this is with actor Max Beasley, who plays Detective Inspector Daniel O'Farrell. I need one favour. I'm heading into my car in about 30 seconds.

And listen, there might not be anything in this, but... Which is my way of saying, make it quick. My girlfriend's ex is on a plane to London from Dubai. He messaged her straight after take-off saying there was an incident on board. She messaged him back straight away. Can't get through. What are you asking me? Well, to check if it's OK. There must be someone you work with who can...

Yeah, it's not a counter-terrorism issue, Daniel. It might be. And if it's not, you know, maybe there's someone who... You know, who knows someone who... Please, Zara. I told her I'd try. All right, an issue on board. An incident. And he told her how much he loves her,

how he'll always love her. This is definitely her ex we're talking about. It's the way he said it. He wouldn't have said it unless it... He'd never have said it like that unless it was serious.

Okay, what's the flight number? Thanks. Genuinely. Especially after everything you and I, you know. Yeah, the flight number, Daniel. I was thinking the same thing as I was watching that clip.

I was like, he hasn't given the flight number yet. But let's talk a little bit about that character that you are playing. How would you describe her? So Zara is a chief, detective chief inspector of counterterrorism who is working on the ground. As soon as she hears about the hijack or the possible hijack, she gathers all the authorities, they get themselves in a meeting room

and of course the investigation starts. And as the series progresses, tensions are high, stakes are high, and it just gets that room, the tension in that room multiplies, the number of people in that room multiplies and without giving too much away, it is literally a matter of life or death.

Mm-hmm. And as we mentioned, and without giving too much away, it is literally a matter of life or death. And as we mentioned, there's the scenes that are taking place in that claustrophobic atmosphere of the plane. Then there's the others that are trying to solve things on the ground. But it is playing out in real time. So across these seven hours, a little less than seven hours that the plane takes to get from Dubai to London. How did that impact your acting? Well, I mean, from an audience point of view, I think it's great because watching every minute of those seven hours, it just adds to the suspense.

For us, my scenes were in this massive meeting room with a group of wonderful actors. So all my dates were condensed. So from a very selfish point of view, it was wonderful to be able to fly into London do my stuff and go but we also could film things chronologically so we didn't have to say okay what was my scene before and track everything we could just get into the room and do what we love doing which is just getting a group of actors a great director Jim Phil Smith is amazing um and just immerse ourselves into the character and fly. Well, that's not probably the best word to use, is it? But I understand and then go for it. So we're not going to give away the rest of the plot, but I think we're beginning to get across the high intensity stakes that there

are around this particular series. But this isn't the first time that you've played in a series set around a missing plane. In 2019, you played alongside Christopher Plummer in the Sky TV series Departure that was on the fictional disappearance of Flight 716, which vanishes into the Atlantic. Do you have a fascination also with airplanes or for drama? You know, I spend most of my life in an airplane. Maybe when I was younger, I was a little bit more nervous. But as time has gone on, I spend so much time in there. I actually find it quite relaxing to be in an aircraft because you have to switch your phones off.

Nobody can contact you. So I feel very at home. So, yeah, doing somebody asked me yesterday, do you have any fear of it? Because you've been doing these television dramas around having crisis on these flights but not at all feel very comfortable i find it very relaxing also particularly when it's in the day and you look out and you're just floating amongst the cloud you know it feels very calming and it's pretty amazing i always want to take a moment uh on the plane kind of to realize wow we're floating above the air incredible and you look down and you realize really we're so insignificant in a way, right?

You look down and the world just looks so huge and we're just one tiny spectacle. Just tiny in this little tin can floating across the world, as David Bowie would say. But let's talk about that because you have moved around a lot. You talk about spending quite a lot of time on planes now obviously for your work but you have lived in the UK you've lived in Mumbai you've lived in New York I believe as well and LA that's right um where's home listen I love London England is my home I was born here I have friends and family here I obviously I went to America um when I got the opportunity for work. There were more opportunities there, but it's so wonderful now. There's so many things happening here.

It's nice to come back. I guess in answer to your question, home is 10 suitcases or however many I decide. However many members of family I travel with. But yeah, I guess the aircraft is my home because I spend so much time in it. Do you travel with family quite a bit? I do and I don't. I have family here. I'm't. I have family here. I'm Indian.

I have family in each corner of the world. So, yeah, it's nice. After travelling for so many years, it is nice to take the family with me. But moving to LA, you were told by an agent there that an Indian actor would never make it in Hollywood.

That was before, of course, the great success of The Good Wife and Kalinda, who I watched so closely, I have to say, and I loved that character. It's interesting that that didn't stop you. Because I was thinking back to Bandit like Beckham, for example, or even East is East. There weren't that many. There was nobody when I started. You know, I remember there was one Indian woman on EastEnders that inspired me. And my mother was a teacher. When she was younger,

her parents didn't want her to become a teacher. And she just said to me, if this is what you want to do, just do it. Don't worry that there isn't anybody out there that looks like you. So it was hard, but in a way it kind of made me more determined. And I was even more determined to play roles where my ethnicity didn't really matter. I could play the roles where my ethnicity mattered. But if it didn't, I just wanted to be an actress. I just wanted to be on film, on TV, and just, you know, do what I always felt I was born to do. They say, one review I was reading, it was talking about you as the master of doing an awful lot with very little, talking about silence, stillness, the subtle facial movement. Talk to me about that. You know, I don't know. Sometimes I get sent scripts where

the characters are very mysterious. You're often offered work based on what you may receive recognition for and obviously I've received a lot of recognition with the character on The Good Wife so I guess it's something to just do with me as a person maybe maybe I don't feel it takes time for me to open up and to talk and so I keep a lot in and so maybe I bring some of that into the characters that I play, maybe because of my culture. You know, growing up, having a massive family and so many cousins and so forth, we always joked and laughed. I feel like my childhood was like a one big Indian wedding where we just celebrate. And maybe we don't open up as much. So maybe there's some sort of influences from, you know, my background and my personality.

And you talk about the roles which you chose. And if I think of Kalinda in The Good Wife, that opened doors, as you mentioned, she was breaking down all sorts of stereotypes, breaking down doors at the same time, literally. You know, when I received that script, it said, it said something like incredibly sexy and able to do so many things by seducing men and all i thought was i'm not incredibly sexy

and in terms of seducing men and wearing this i think it was like wearing a blouse that was falling off as my mom my aunts would kill me so my main objective in reading that was i just want my mom not to be annoyed with me. And I want my aunts not to give her pressure. So I have to find a way of making her sexy that is respectful, you know, to the best ability I can be sexy, but also make her respectful. When I think back to Kalinda, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking of red leather, high boots. Yes, but her skin was covered. Her skin was covered.

Her skin was covered. Every part of her body was covered. The clothes were fitted. Yes. And she had the boots. Yeah. But I felt like wearing a short skirt and covering my legs, my arms would be caught in it.

And were they? You know, what was great is they loved the character so much that they forgave all the, let's just say naughty, naughty things that I might have got up to. She was such a great character, I's just say, naughty, naughty things that I've got up to. She was such a great character, I have to say.

And I'm loving Zara as well in Hijack. But they are both investigative roles. Is that something that you're drawn towards? Yeah, I mean, what I liked about Zara's character

is the fact that she is slightly, she is abrasive. By nature, it's an's an investigative role for sure and i have been known to play that but my challenge is to try and differentiate those roles and i think what i liked about zara she actually is not as controlled as kalinda um and when she you'll see in episode two when she goes to a meeting and she wants to interrupt the meeting she doesn't say excuse me can we have a she just goes in and she bangs her hand on the glass door as she walks aside. And that is Zara. She's got a bit more, I don't know, a bit more abrasive is probably the best way to describe her.

Yeah. And that works in that particular project, no doubt. If there's a hijacking that's taking place, there's no time to be polite. Absolutely. Really. When you look back actually at Bended Like beckham how do you feel about that because women's football it was something that wasn't really on the front burner at that point and it was something that was considered something so different uh it was like a prelude to what we're

seeing now on so many levels though i mean first all, there was not very many British Asians in cinema. There weren't much. There wasn't many. I don't even know if there was a... There was a women's football team, but they weren't playing. Is that right? They weren't getting as much coverage as, say, what they have done now. There weren't that many girls having an interest in wanting to play football. So I think it broke, you know, shattered the glass ceiling on so many levels.

And probably inspired so many. I just wish that there were more British Asian films and roles because we had such a pool of great British Asian talent on that. And I wish there were a lot more soon after that. I know things are changing now. Do you feel they're changing fast enough? I think they're changing. I personally would like to see more stories about British Asians because I think there is some interesting stories to be told. I'm working on one myself. There's so many stories about our parents who came here and those that people that tried to assimilate and how they tried to give our generation a better way of life.

So I think there are still so many untold stories. But for sure, things are changing. And it is nice to see the changes, you know, are happening. I think the stories when you have people with feet in two worlds are always fascinating. That's exactly it. That culture clash between the East and the West. You know, our parents came here, they worked hard, and then they just said, okay, we've got enough money for you now to go to school. And what they didn't realize is when we went to school, the East and the West was so far apart to fit into that community and then to come back home and to fit into the East and respect the Eastern values was a real clash. Was it hard for you? I call it a cultural schizophrenia, slipping in and out of one role with ease, because you just want to be accepted at school and you want to please your parents. And I think most people in my generation would agree there is something very comical about it.

But there's also something, there's an untold story there, which I hope, you know, we can see on British television soon. I would definitely watch that because what I hear from you, and I've just met you today for the first time, but obviously family is very important and there's a lot of your Indian background that you bring every day. However, I also know that you're a superstar actress when acting probably wouldn't have been a profession that your parents would have been pushing you into. You're playing all these roles that are, you know, breaking down stereotypes, as we mentioned as well. And I

believe and I know you're very private about your husband and your marriage to just answer whatever you want to or don't want to. You agreed to an arranged marriage at the age of 26. Is that correct? I didn't agree to an arranged marriage at the age of 26. This was somebody just that my mother met and introduced me to and I went out with him for a couple of years. And we decided, hey, we get on. And then obviously you are still married, so obviously it was successful. Do you think that introductions are sometimes misunderstood? It's not really any different to a dating app because you fill in, you put your information and then you're matched to somebody that is possibly similar. So introductions now are so much more different. I mean, it is literally like a dating app.

You put your information in and then you're matched with somebody that could probably worthwhile meeting. But let me tell you, my mother talked about um introducing me to potential men I was absolutely not I have a mind of my own and what changed I mean do you think she just picked the right person he's my best friend we just got on really well was it annoying that your mother knew you so well every mother most mothers know their kids well. Even though I'm just thinking if you were pushing back against her previously

that you didn't want the introductions and then it turned out that mother was right in the end. Yes. My mother has probably been right about a lot of things. She might be listening today.

She might hold you to this. Sadly, my mother's no longer. Oh, I'm so sorry. She's listening up there to every word. I can just mother's no longer. Oh, I'm so sorry. She's listening up there to every word. I can just feel it. I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry for your loss. Archie, so good to have you in. Thank you so much for talking through a potted history of your career and also, of course, about Hijack, which is coming out tomorrow

and it will be on Apple TV from Wednesday, the 28th of June It's a brilliant show you have to watch it and I'm very proud to be associated with it and by the way Idris Elba

we didn't mention the lovely Idris Elba Well I'm sure he is lovely do you have something else do you have any gossip that you're going to share No they are honestly the whole team on this

but this has been one of my favourite jobs and to come back in England and to do something in England with such a great team and with Apple I'm really proud of it. So there you have it, Idris Elba starring with Archie Punjabi in Hijack.

We're going to move on now in Women's Hour to cricket instead. You might have heard a little bit in the news bulletin, which was talking about the English Cricket Board has been told to secure equal pay for its male and female cricketers by 2030 as part of the report by the Independent Commission for Equity in Cricket. The report also found that racism, sexism and class-based discrimination are widespread and deep-rooted within the game. Although positive strides were recognised in the women's game, it highlighted a lack of female representation among decision-makers, less media exposure

and fewer opportunities to play at premier grounds for elite women, as well as inequality in terms of kit and equipment available to women and girls. And when it comes to pay and investment,

the women's game receives an embarrassingly small amount compared to the men's game. Well, joining me now is Geordie Heath, a sports journalist and presenter and commentator who has spent the last five days watching women's test cricket. Well, joining me now is Georgie Heath, a sports journalist and presenter and commentator who has spent the last five days

watching women's test cricket. Hi, Georgie. Thanks for making some time for us. Oh, no worries. Good morning to you all. Thanks for having me on. So there's an awful lot in this report, but I want to hone in on one line that I was reading.

Equal pay for female and male cricketers by 2030. Your reaction to that and also I suppose the key question whether you think it's feasible? It's a difficult one. Well at the moment the way we look at it the average salary in the women's international game is 20% of that of the men's. This report found that women were sort of seen as subordinate and second-class citizens and this is something we think we're in 2023 women are not subordinate second-class citizens we've known this for a very long time and finally the world is realizing it we've seen it across other sports as well what women can do we saw the euros last year the crowds those brought in um i was drawn to an article earlier by um cricket historian raf nicholson and she was

talking about what len hutton said back in 1963 which is women trying to play cricket is absurd like a man trying to knit and it does sort of feel like this is making us realize that actually there are still a lot of those sort of len Hutton-esque kind of people around talking these kind of things about women playing cricket. I've just watched a five-day women's test match, and it was as exciting as any men's cricket I've seen in a long time. I love men's cricket. I love women's cricket. It's all cricket to me. I don't know if that's because I'm biased because I'm just a cricket lover,

but it's all cricket, and that's how it should be seen. Just because you're a woman and it's not been professionalised for as long, why is someone being paid a fifth of what a man is being paid to do the same thing? Why is the average domestic salary for a women's player 45% of a men's county player? Why is the highest-paid woman in the hundred only just earning more than the lowest paid male there are a lot of whys and i think this report is helping us see that those whys are there but these answers need to be found quickly and 2030 if you ask me seems a very long way away in my head, but I guess in the scheme of...

Do you... Because... That's the thing. In the scheme of the sport as a whole, it's actually a very short period of time, but then compared to what they want to say, the minimum salaries they want to be equal at the beginning of 2024 season, that's, what, 10 months away. And that's what I'm wondering, whether there is the means, the political will, the money to make that happen.

So my understanding is that with the 100 by 2025 and across the game by 2030. Yeah, that's what they're saying. And I mean, it'll be interesting to see how they start this and how they look to go about this, because it's taken this long to get the women's game professionalized we've now got over a hundred professional in inverted commas women in the game so that's centrally contracted and through the regional structure and then obviously they get to play in the hundred and the likes as well so we can't deny that steps have you know we have come on leaps and bounds even since I started working in the sport we've seen so many more professionalizations of different areas and then we saw the introduction you know of

an under 19 world cup this year but that's globally we're looking at just England obviously at the moment and the idea still of women being subordinate second-class citizens that's what's really stuck in my head on this but it is where are they going to get this money it's taken this long to get to this stage how are they going to do this and what is the first step going to be because the first step is going to have to happen very quickly if they're looking at trying to get it done in this time scale and i'm wondering with the word um the women are subordinate at all levels of cricket. I mean, is that what you've experienced? Well, it's one of those things.

I work a lot across women's cricket mainly, but I do do some stuff in men's cricket as well. And actually, I'm very lucky perhaps that I've not experienced too much that really is harrowing myself. But I have friends who work in the game and things like they turn up in the game and you know things like they turn up to a game and they just get immediately asked oh are you the tea lady oh

you're doing this I've turned up to games in my white before to play and said I'm here to play and been just looked at and someone say but you're a girl and you feel like replying well oh am I thanks I hadn't noticed wow you know it just feels it's one of those things that surely we've got to this stage in the world now that each person, regardless of age, gender, sex, background, race, who you love, who you don't love, should be able to take part in an activity that you want to take part in just because you love it. Sometimes you find that you can sort of walk into maybe a press room. And actually I was saying this to your producer earlier, I walk in. And the first thing I do without really realizing is I look to see how many

other women are there, not because I need an ally, but because automatically I'm like, oh, cool. There's other women here. Oh, great. You know? And it, it has massively increased. I know that there are so's other women here oh great you know and it it has massively increased I know that um there are so many more women in these press rooms at men's and women's games but you do feel very much you are still a minority because cricket is historically the men's sport even though we had the first world cup so maybe it should be the world cup and the men's world cup but that's another story. Well, you heard it here first.

You know, I want to play a little of Richard Thompson. This is chair of the England and Wales Cricket Board talking about the report. It makes for very uncomfortable reading, but this is now a significant wake up call for the game. The first recommendation of the report is something that I feel very strongly about, and that is to offer an unreserved apology for those people that feel they have been discriminated against and marginalised and not included in a game that they should have been. Your reaction to that? Yeah, I mean, apologies are one thing. You give an apology, but it's about what they're going to do next to change this. It's all very well saying sorry, but you can say sorry and just move on and carry on as it were.

If it's saying sorry and then saying, right, I apologise unreservedly for this. This is the first thing we're going to do. We're going to start this as soon as possible. Yes, there's a men's test match happening at Lords tomorrow, but we can't just say, oh, because it's such a big summer of cricket, we'll wait and then we're going to move on to this. They need to start putting things in place, not just for the sectism, the racism, the, you know, the elitism,

everything that's happening in there needs to be, they need to start making moves on this as quickly as possible. But I'm wondering, Georgie, because with the massive report and some of the aspects that you underline there, whether it is sexism or racism,

elitism, you know, throughout, as the cricket board has mentioned, where are their priorities going to lie? And will this equal pay make it to the top of the pile? That's exactly what I was thinking this morning it's one of those things when it comes out with so many issues you then are almost the last thing they then want to be doing is prioritizing which of their issues because that actually is almost backing up exactly what they're saying you know

they're then putting some people above others you can't just go right we're just going to focus on the sexism we're just going to focus on the elitism we're just going to focus on the racism they need to they need to focus on all of them at the time and that is i think where the difficulty is going to come there are certain things that i think surely are much easier and quicker solutions to focus on. For example, the England women, I've just seen them play this five-day test match. Yes, they've never played a test match at Lord's. Yes.

Whereas Eton and Harrow, the school, play at Lord's every year. So you have boys coming through the school system, what, 16-year-olds playing in the first team at school, playing at Lord's, and you have the likes of let's pick up you know sophie eccleston she took 10 wickets in this test match and she's never played a test match at lords and something like that in my head is a pretty simple pretty simple thing to fix how far away sorry to step over you georgie how far away do you think that is

well at the moment we don't even know when the next england women's test match is going to be so that's quite difficult in itself yes they've they've put out their schedule for the next sort of seven years ecb saying that there will be women's matches at lords they've played white ball stuff there before so perhaps in that at least in that seven year period, they know they're going to be at Lords somehow. Why not a test match? Well, let us wait and see. Really good to have you on.

Thank you so much for explaining some of the differences. Georgie, Georgie Heath is sports journalist, presenter and commentator who spent the last five days watching women's test cricket and is calling for them to play at Lords. Let's see if it happens. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Lots of you have been getting in touch about energy, your energy levels. We're going to talk about that next. I just want to read a couple of the comments coming in. This is Jennifer. To manage my energy levels, I save things that I really want to do, the less tedious jobs, until the afternoon,

when otherwise I find my energy levels sagging and might be tempted to nap. I found this works. Jennifer, if you were with us last week, you might know that napping is a really good idea. It is something that we're very much pushing here on Women's Hour. Apparently it can get our brain back in action. And we're talking about energy levels because we're trying to figure out how to be less frazzled to begin with. So we often, maybe you're different, maybe you're the same, I don't know, look at our daily schedules and then try and fit in what we can around the time that we have.

But what if instead we started thinking of what energy we have instead of how much time? And there might be some of you out there with medical conditions like ME, chronic fatigue syndrome, or others, that you kind of have to watch your body and have used energy management techniques to try and decide what tasks you may be able to accomplish in a day. But maybe we could learn a thing or two from those techniques. Well, I have Lauren Walker, occupational therapist who teaches energy management with me in studio. Good morning. Good morning. Looking bright eyed and bushy telt. We also have Charlie Thorne. It was a city lawyer before she became burnt out and she started trying to manage her energy rather than her time. Good to have you with us, Charlie. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Also looking very energetic

this morning. Okay, so there is a difference, Lauren, between being tired and medical fatigue. But this method was created for people with medical conditions, as I mentioned, when they have fatigue as a symptom. But what do you think people could learn from this method? Well, there's lots of common sense tips, actually. And just to give a bit of context, I work for the Royal College of Occupational Therapists. I am an occupational therapist myself. And we typically work with people

who have health conditions and disabilities that impact their ability to live their lives in the way that they want to. And energy management is a technique that we will typically use with people who have fatigue, as you've mentioned, as a result of an illness or as a long-term health condition, because we know that sense of exhaustion, both physical and mental exhaustion, can really massively impact our ability to do the things that we need and want to within a day. So for us, an occupation isn't just what we do for a living.

It's literally everything that gives us meaning during the course of a day. Okay, so what would my listener do? How would you help somebody manage their energy? Well, we talk about quite often the three P's principle, that being pacing, planning and prioritising. And that's ways of structuring your day, structuring your time so that you're making the most of the energy that you have available. So the advice actually that Jennifer gave in terms of thinking about what she does at certain times of day is really good advice.

Kind of being conscious of the different types of demands that different tasks put on us. And that's not just physical energy. Our brains use a lot of energy as well. So let's say we have to do, I don't know, heavier admin work, tax returns, something like that. But that uses the same sort of energy as perhaps trying to work out, I don't know, some tricky scheduling, for example, for a work rota. Is that the same sort of energy being used? It can be. And it's quite a subtle art, if I say. I would say it's probably more of an art than a science. And sometimes there's a certain amount of trial and error in terms of working out what drains your energy and what gives you energy. What we know through energy management is actually that variety is really helpful.

And so is rest. So you mentioned napping. I'm a big fan. Oh, yeah, me too. And again, rest is quite subjective. Different people will find different things restful. But actually, if you have got an activity that's draining for any types of reasons, then building in rest before and after or even during that task,

before you reach that point of exhaustion, can be really, really helpful. So really, I think what I'm hearing, Lauren, is that each person will have their own energy drains or energy givers. So maybe for somebody, it's quite exciting to do tax returns. I've yet to meet that person. But yes, you're quite right. And again, that's why as occupational therapists, we will work with people individually to, again, understand what is draining for them and what is energising for them. So it's not about demonising all activity. It's not saying you just have to sit in a chair all day, quite the reverse. But it's about being really conscious area of my life, work, relationships, old thinking patterns

and of course my home. And so she is suggesting that decluttering. Here's another one from Carol Ann. Every Friday is my white space in the diary. I won't even book a coffee with a friend

so I can wake up and know there is nothing in the diary that day. I don't have to be anywhere and I'm not tied to anything. It's hugely liberating and like a mind spa. I spend the day creatively pottering and doing whatever takes my fancy. As I am a life coach, I recommend all my clients build in white space time. Let me turn to Charlie. I feel you didn't have white space time in your life previously.

You became burnt out. Tell us a little bit what happened to you and welcome. Yes, so I was a corporate lawyer in the city in London for the last 10 years. And it's a very high stress environment. And I was chronically stressed without really understanding that that's what was happening to me. I think that we live in a society and a culture where stress and even burnout are sometimes referred to as things to wear as a badge of honor or especially in the city there's a lot of hustle and bustle and it's it's who's doing what when how quickly what are you achieving and you lose sight of the fact that stress chronically can be really bad for you. And I worked that out the hard way by burning out last year in the summer when I just I couldn't get out of bed one day after a particularly stressful week and went on sick leave and I never returned to work. And I won't do. I have

officially occupationally burned out of being a lawyer. Yeah. And you said you couldn't get out of bed that day. How long did the feeling last or how would you describe being burnt out because I think it's it's thrown around but I mean you know as people say at the end of a day but this is this is real. Yeah it's very real and I think a lot more people experience it than they may. Sorry, Charlie, I'm going to keep talking to you. Sorry, go ahead. Sorry, Charlie, the line deteriorated there for a moment. Please go ahead. We were saying it's real. Yes, no, it's very, very real. The things that I missed that would have given me an indication of what I was experiencing were things like chronic cynicism and negativity about not just work, but everything. A sense of poor mental

health without really having a reason that I could pinpoint. Reduced efficacy at work. So even things that I would historically have found quite easy I was beginning to find really difficult and my motivation was down I generally just was very lackluster and of course I had no energy so that day when I when I got out of bed um sorry where I couldn't get out of bed was really my body pushing back after years of cyclical burnout um taking its toll and the the specifics for me um were slightly different in that I also found out subsequently that I'm autistic, which explains my particular susceptibility to going over and above my stress threshold as well. Gosh, you explain it so well. You're nodding, nodding, nodding, Lauren.

Yeah, absolutely. And unfortunately, what Charlie's described is really very common. And I think especially with Charlie being someone who is autistic, we know that sometimes people who are neurodivergent, that kind of the emotional demands and the social demands of situations can put a lot of pressure on their energy. And that can be really draining in a way that perhaps neurotypical people don't experience. So I think, you know, taking that time out to reset. Something I should say as well is that the Royal College of Occupational Therapists, we've just launched a free guide

for anyone and everyone who's experiencing fatigue and those senses of burnout and exhaustion to access. So you can get that through our website at rcot.co.uk forward slash energy guide. That's launched today. So I'd commend that to anyone. And what I'd also say is that if you don't know why you're feeling that fatigue, that sense of overwhelm or exhaustion, it's always a very sensible idea to consult with a health professional, as Charlie did, to try and understand exactly what's going on. Do you think there's enough recognition by health professionals about what burnout is?

I think that awareness is growing. I think that it's something that really came to the forefront through COVID. I think prior to that, fatigue felt like quite an abstract concept. But I think for any of us who had COVID, we kind of felt a lot of fatigue and burnout during the initial stages of the infection. But we now know that there's literally thousands of people living with the effects of long COVID as well. So it is not a particularly well understood condition, but I think that level of awareness is increasing. And certainly it's something that occupational therapists deal with every day.

Jay got in touch and says, I've had ME fibromyalgia for over 20 years and also long COVID since February 2021. Previously full of energy, very fit, never tired. Luckily, I adapted and accepted my new life. And from the beginning, listened to my body and rested regularly. Limited energy has made me prioritise things which nurture me and neglect tasks such as keeping house clean, which I only do after the necessary rest and positive experiences. Right on, Jay.

And only then have I spare energy that day. So Jay is very much, it sounds like, knows what is needed for their body. Here's another one from Amanda. She says, I've just come back from my GP where I have had a blood test. Like many women in their late 40s and early 50s, I feel the rug has been pulled out from under me

in terms of energy. I have a busy, irresponsible responsible job, three children. And in the last couple of years, I've had to take two or three days off just to sleep as I'm totally exhausted. I feel like I'm on a treadmill with less and less in reserve. Giving women menopause leave a couple of days a year could make a real difference to me.

What would you say to Amanda, Lauren? I think, you know, we all live increasingly busy lives. We all have an awful lot on our plate, whether or not that's related to a medical condition or not. And I think, as Charlie mentioned, this idea of rest is something that's quite often demonised in society. And I think it's something that we absolutely have to claim back and be unapologetic about taking that time to rest,

because ultimately it will help us to do more of the things that we love. And also the previous point about prioritising the things that bring you joy and maybe leaving the housework, I would absolutely applaud that as well. So making sure that we do make time for the things that matter most to us. What about this one? Don't have a name.

There are also people who can be a drain on energy. Difficult to prove, but it can happen. I think we all know that. I don't think you have to prove it. I don't think so. And again, a good point around- What do you do with that? Cut them off? Oh that I don't think you have to prove it I don't think so and again a good point around what do you do with that cut them off oh I couldn't possibly say but I think yeah genuinely social energy that drain on our social energy can be can be huge and so yeah if we do

need to limit the time that we spend with certain people then that's what you need to do to get through the day then then absolutely why not what though, coming back to you, Charlie, because you had that high-powered job that you've decided to leave because of this. Do you think there would have been a way to manage it differently? I think there would have if I'd have had the knowledge of what burnout is and I'd taken seriously what it is. And I think it goes to the work that that Lauren's doing in raising awareness about it because um the truth is I look back now and it's obvious but at the time it wasn't if you had gone to your bosses in that environment at that time and you said I'm feeling burnt out do you think you would have been listened to would have been sympathetic um we can talk in general I wish yeah I wish I could say that I think they

would have but just from experience of talking about stress and again this is I don't think this is a fault of individuals I think it's a societal problem um in my experience there's often the rebuttal of oh but we all we're all stressed but look you do this you do that you've achieved this you've achieved that and actually what's the cost of pushing oneself to achieve those things it's it's actually often our health and our ability to rest and our longevity because then how do you change that narrative Lauren because I think what Charlie's expressing there is a situation that lots of people will be in today and you know that they're not in an environment that would perhaps be open to saying you know sorry I need to have a blank space in my diary I need to manage my

energy levels. Absolutely and I think as Charlie says it's something that that we contend is society to wear as a badge of pride this sense of busyness and this sense of stress. So I think there is this collective need to recognise that actually by prioritising our time more effectively and prioritising rest, ultimately that will make us more able to be present in all areas of our life. So it is something that we collectively need to grasp much more effectively, I think. Here's another. In my 60s, I'm in my 60s, I work for myself as does my husband. We both woke up on Monday morning, both saying we felt exhausted. This after a weekend of non-stop stuff, including getting in the chilly North Sea as it was so hot. Our kids are always saying,

why don't you two just chill and do nothing? They seem to be able to do that, no problem. We seem unable to do nothing, but it's a habit that keeps us living our life to the fullest. What do they say? One life to live. I do find time to sit down with a great book every day, even if it's only for a few minutes. But I think what I'm hearing there as well is that it's a habit that they're in of being that busy and almost not afraid to not be that busy, but definitely resistant to it. Absolutely. Yeah, we all do things because it's habit without even thinking about about it but i think what i would say to that is it's about balance and it's about maybe spreading out those really strenuous activities so you've got more of a mix of the the things that are really demanding and then the things that are a bit more relaxing and giving

yourself permission and really examining how you're spending your time and it's also i think when you talk about that the energy drains or the energy givers to figure out which is which. Do most people, people are different, right? Whether they have more energy in the morning or the afternoon. Yeah, and it can fluctuate. So I'd really recommend, again, something that's in our guide and something we recommend in energy management

is to use a diary just to record at the end of a day what you've been doing and how it's made you feel as well. So you can quite quickly begin to observe patterns about what's bringing you energy and what's sa it's made you feel as well. So you can quite quickly begin to observe patterns about what's bringing you energy and what's sapping it a little bit as well. Charlie, how are you feeling now? I'm still recovering a year on, but I'm a lot better. Okay, well, lovely to have you on, Charlie Thorne

and Lauren Walker and all your messages as well coming in about energy levels. Keep them coming, 84844. Now, if you're a regular listener of Woman's Hour, and you have been for a while, you'll probably have heard the story about how the suffragette, Emily Wilding Davison,

hid in a cupboard in the Houses of Parliament in 1911. So she could be recorded as being there in the census. But what you might not realise is the huge amount of women who were influencing and impacting Parliament far before that moment and who fought hard for change within the system. My next guest has been

discovering the stories of these very women and has put them all into a book for the rest of us to enjoy. Marie Takanyagi is a professional archivist at the Parliamentary Archives and a fellow of the Royal Historical Society. Along with her colleague, Elizabeth Hallam-Smith, she's written Necessary Women, the untold story of Parliament's working women. Welcome.

I'm delighted to be here. Thank you. So the title Necessary Women, tell us a little bit more about why you landed on that title. Necessary Women has a double meaning because it's both a job title. Necessary used to be a word for servants, the necessary, doing the necessary. And there was a job called Necessary Woman, which we've traced back to the 17th century in the House of Lords.

But of course, women were also necessary for the running of Parliament. And as a woman working in Parliament myself, I've worked there for 23 years, I was always curious about my predecessors. And when I started digging into the stories, scratching below the surface, all of these women were there necessary for the workings of the House of Commons and the House of Lords. And brilliant stories of these women in the books. There's cleaners, there's housekeepers, there's typists, there's politicians, wives. Who's your favourite? I've got lots of favourites.

Okay, let's talk about one. One is May Ashworth. May Ashworth was a Victorian clergyman's daughter, born up north in a vicarage. And you might have thought she would be a teacher or a governess. She was one of five sisters. Instead, she moved to London. She set up her own business in typing, which was the new technology of its time. We're talking 1880s. And then she was successful in 1895. She won a competitive contract to provide official typing services to the house of commons and house of lords and she kept that contract and against huge male opposition and for the rest of her life through marriage which might well have ended a career of a working

woman through war through the first world war and then through divorce still scandalous in that period right up to her death in 1928 and ashworth and & Co, her company, carried on even after her death. And even today, people who've worked in Parliament a long time with long memories still recognise the name Ashworth as a name for the typing, Paul. So she is one that really left her mark. There was another that I was reading about,

Eliza R. Scott. She was the reigning, I suppose, principal housemaid at the House of Lords. But tell us a little bit about her and even that title, principal housemaid at the House of Lords. But tell us a little bit about her and even that title, principal housemaid at the House of Lords. She's probably the most tragic story that me and Liz, my co-author, discovered when we were writing Necessary Woman. The role of housekeeper in the House of Lords was traditionally a very grand and important one, responsible for security and tours as well as cleaning. But it had been downgraded by the time eliza asker was appointed in the late 19th

century um and they did she should have lived on site and they tried to take her lodgings away they paid her a weekly wage and made it instead of a instead of an annual wage it was no longer pensionable and she was living a very precarious life and her mental health started to suffer and in 1901 she was discovered wandering the courtyards of the houses of parliament at night knocking on people's doors there were lots of residents in those days in parliament and she knocked on the door of the clerk's parliaments the man in charge of the house of lords and asked to speak to his wife lady margaret and this was the final straw and her managers tried to be supportive to her up to that point and given her support but at this point they

couldn't do any more she went to the local workhouse they sent her to the local asylum and Hanwell lunatic asylum in the parlance of the day and she stayed there for the rest of her life her case notes together with a photograph of her which is on the cover of Necessary Woman are still there today in the London Metropolitan Archives and I turned the page of doing research on her and there she was staring out at me with huge black circles underneath her eyes around her eyes and this enormous lacy collar that I think she made when she was in the in the asylum and she never left she spent the rest of her life there another 30 years and died there in her 70s. Isn't it incredible though to think of all these stories that were there of these stories that you're uncovering of women that weren't known about previously. Let's talk about suffragettes

and surprising discoveries that you also had while making the book. Yes, absolutely. So this is a previously unknown suffragette, Mary Jane Anderson, and she was the mother of Ethel Marie Anderson, who was the manager of Ashworth's House of Commons typing office in 1911. And my co-author Liz Hallam-Smith had done a huge amount of work finding all the Ashworth employees through the 1921 census where you can look at employers. And so I was busy looking them all up in 1911. And I opened the image on the screen of my computer at home. And suddenly the census form was there. And it says votes for women scrawled across it. And the census numerator struck it out in red and it wasn't just votes for

women she described herself you know instead of a housewife or something like that she'd written housekeeper cook a general servant mother wife all of which is unpaid no money no wage no vote and this one completely unknown to suffrage historians I did check afterwards and there she was so the census was a method of protest. You mentioned Emily Wild and Davison at the start who had a very unique protest and other women did, some suffragettes did deface their census form or they tried to evade the census. But it's almost impossible to find their forms unless you know their name.

And here I was just looking up a random woman, never looked up before and there she was. It was quite incredible. So what did it feel like when you opened that page and you see it? It was the true sense of archival discovery, looking at something that existed, had been catalogued and described, and yet nobody had looked at and understood before. And also just extraordinary because the Anderson family, just so completely unknown. And it was just the fact her daughter was a typing manager in the House of Commons. And when I looked into the family, I found that they were both born in America the census form said and this is quite extraordinary and it's so strange to think about Ethel Marie Anderson

running the typing office in the House of Commons with MPs coming in to do their dictation because that's how it worked in those days and one of the Ashworth girls as they were known would start taking down shorthand and start typing away and maybe they'd just been discussing votes for women in the House of Commons maybe they'd spoken for it against it maybe that's what they were typing and she must have been sitting there that no maybe with her own opinions it's impossible to know of course whether she shared her mother's opinions but we do know they were a close-knit family she lived with her parents for her whole life you know up to the death of first her father with her mother and beyond um so um i'd like to i'd like to think that well maybe they would just discuss things over the over the dinner table maybe they would have agreed maybe they

would have disagreed but she was certainly right there in the heart of all the discussions about votes for women in the early 20th century so you talk about the census getting information from there because i'm thinking maybe there are others. Oh I'm sure there are others but the trouble is as I say you can find people by name, you can find people by place, location. If you know what you're looking for you can find people in it but to find something like an annotated form that's not described and it's not till you lay your eyes on it you can see it that you can find it. But there are suffrage historians out there who've done a lot of work on the census.

There have been a book written about it by Jill Lidington, Vanishing for the Vote, it's called. And Elizabeth Crawford, a very eminent suffrage historian, also done a lot of work on it. But they hadn't uncovered Mary Jane Anderson because they didn't know what to look for. And neither did I. But here she is. And I was very proud to sort of save the story for the book the census form is there in in book in colour as a colour plate so people can people can buy it or get it at the library and look at her writing on the page and see what she thought the fact that she writes sort of no

wages no vote I think is particularly interesting because we think of wages for housework as being maybe a 70s second wave feminist kind of. But some women were arguing for votes for wages for wives back in the early 20th century. And here's an example. It's so interesting. We were talking about equal pay in cricket. At the beginning of the programme, the same themes continue. But you got your information.

I mentioned some from the census and you're working at the Parliamentary Archives. But some of your sources were an oral history. Yes, and you mentioned equal pay, so that's very nice. So Kay Midwinter, who was the first woman clerk, clerk being a senior role in the Houses of Parliament, was employed in the House of Commons in 1940. So it was a wartime appointment.

Specifically, they wanted a woman to replace a man for war service. And she left an oral history behind, but not because she worked at Parliament. It's because she was an employee of the League of Nations before that and the United Nations after the Second World War. The United Nations did a big oral history project and all the recordings were at the Bodleian Library in Oxford. And so I went there a few years ago and I got to listen to tape and hear her voice. And she sounded, by the time she did the recording, she was in her 80s,

but she sounded completely with it, absolutely compus mentis, referring to notes, very organised, very precise. And she's absolutely an example of a woman who still did have a successful career in the League of Nations, the United Nations, but clearly could have been so much more, did not get the promotion,

did not get the recognition that she deserved. And that was true in Parliament, sadly, as well. I love that you're giving a voice to these women and sharing their experiences. Marie Takanyagi, thank you so much for coming in. Necessary Women is the book. Thanks to all of you getting in touch.

I see comments coming in on cricket again. There's a long way to go in women and girls cricket, but please give a shout out to those who've done so much to get as far as we have, especially at grassroots

and club level. The likes of Helen Crawley of Chess and Cricket Club. Inspiring and inclusive cultures that are bringing so many into the game. My daughter is obsessed with cricket and plays as much as she can in the mixed teams, girls teams and women's teams onwards and upwards. Indeed

onwards and upwards. Tomorrow we have the pleasure of hearing from actor Rosamund Pike who made her breakthrough in film as a Bond girl in Die Another Day but lots of other of course roles like Gone Girl. She'll be with me to discuss her recent move to audio as Connie. We'll talk about that tomorrow.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Jason Manford here. And I'm Steve Edge. We just wanted to tell you about our new podcast from Radio 4 on BBC Sounds. Best Men, it's called. And it's all about one of the most important jobs a fella can face in his lifetime, being a best man.

We were each other's best men, weren't we? So we know all about the pressures of this honourable but daunting and all-consuming role. In this podcast, we'll be meeting the people who've succeeded in helping their best pal through the most important day of their lives. And, crucially, those that have failed. Hearing some unbelievable stories of stag-do disasters, of speeches that have silenced the room, and about friendships that were never quite the same afterwards. We'll also be trying to help those going through this particular trauma

over the coming months, as well as exploring the importance of that special friendship between best man and the groom. And, hopefully, having a bit of a laugh along the way. It's a bit like a good wedding. You will not want to miss it. So give it a listen and you can subscribe to Best Men right now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.