Woman's Hour - Arlene Foster, french women and high heels

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

Former Northern Ireland First Minister and DUP leader Arlene Foster joins the programme to talk about a return to devolution in Northern Ireland and the fourth anniversary of Brexit. Author Fiona Williams is out with her debut novel, The House of Broken Bricks. She joins Emma to talk about the ways in which the book relates to her real life in terms of navigating issues of race and belonging, and why she wanted to write a story so intertwined with nature. Thames Valley Police has referred itself to the policing regulator after a BBC investigation revealed that officers ridiculed an assault victim while watching body-worn video that showed her groin. Emma speaks with the BBC's Noel Titheradge about his investigation as well as Harriet Wistrich about misogyny in the UK police force.It’s out with heels and in with trainers. That’s what is happening in France where, according to a poll, women are falling out of love with high heels - instead going for a chunky boot or comfortable trainer. To discuss this fashion shift, Emma is joined by Professor of Fashion History Dr Serena Dyer and French shoe designer Marie Laffont.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Cece Armstrong Studio Manager: Duncan Hannant

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Today, as well as trying to familiarise ourselves with political texts that could unlock power in Northern Ireland, I'm sure you'll be spending your lunch hour doing just that, you could also find yourself inspired by the self-appointed wellness guru and actor Gwyneth Paltrow, who's been speaking publicly about how she expresses rage.

She's trying to get better at it, having felt doing it in any physical way would be deemed unladylike. It's pretty basic. She buys a plastic bat and just hits stuff with it. What do you do? There is some rage-inducing moments perhaps in today's programme, so let's come together and talk about how one expresses rage. You can text me here with your thoughts and ideas on 84844, that's the number you need, on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour,

and you can email through the website, or go for WhatsApp or a voice note on 03700100444. Just watch those data charges. Also on today's programme, a debut novelist who's already bagged an award for her stunning depictions of family and nature. A shocking case involving the handling of police and women. And why more and more French women are keeping their feet fully on the ground.

But my first guest this morning knows a thing or two about negotiating with Westminster and smashing glass ceilings. She is the former first minister of Northern Ireland and leader of the political party dominating today's headlines, the DUP. When she took on both of those roles, no woman had held them before. Ahead of the UK government publishing details of its deal this afternoon, we're expecting it with the DUP to restore storm and power sharing this afternoon. That's what's hoped after a way forward has apparently been found on post Brexit trading arrangements. Baroness Arlene Foster joins me now and quite auspiciously, as I note, it happens to be four years since the UK officially left the European Union. Good morning. Good morning. The people of Northern Ireland haven't had a working devolved government for nearly two years. Do you think

that's acceptable? Well, as you know, we didn't have a working devolved government for nearly two years. Do you think that's acceptable? Well, as you know, we didn't have a working government for three years between 2017 and 2020. And that was a very difficult time as well. But I'm very pleased now that it looks like we're heading towards devolution again. I think the reasons why Sir Geoffrey Donaldson, the leader of the DUP, took the step of collapsing the executive were clear to everybody. He had warned back in September of 2021 that if the government didn't deal with the issues around the protocol, that things were going to

have to change. And therefore, he came out of government in February of 2022. It's now two years. It has taken that amount of time to get to a position which I hope will be acceptable to the greater number of unionists and things will be able to move on. That is the hope. We are still waiting to see and get more detail on that. But do you think it's acceptable? Do you think the DUP owe the people of Northern Ireland an apology? Well, Sinn Féin certainly owed the people of Northern Ireland an apology back in 2020 when they took us out of government around the Irish language, and it could have been sorted out within Stormont. The difficulty for Sir Geoffrey was that this was

something that could only be sorted out by the UK government. It couldn't have been sorted out by the Northern Ireland Executive or indeed the devolved administration. And it shows again that when you have agreements concerning Northern Ireland and concerning devolution, you have to have the majority of unionism and the majority of nationalism with you. And the fundamental problem with the protocol was that nobody in unionism was in favour of the protocol, so that had to be sorted out.

So it has taken a long time. I don't think Sir Geoffrey or anybody else would have foreseen this and would have wanted to be out for such a long period of time. But I think I'm trying to be positive today, Emma, we should celebrate the fact that we have reached a point where we should celebrate the point that we're at now and hopefully see an administration up and running very, very shortly. You managed to make that, if you don't mind me saying, in a typical politician way to a different party and to a different time and a time where you were obviously heavily involved. But the reason I

ask that is people don't feel like celebrating a lot of people, do we? You look two weeks ago, they've been left and you see how many people have gone on strike. You see record numbers, a combined strike by 150,000 in Northern Ireland, nurses, teachers, cleaners. They feel that they've been left begging, as they say, for pay equity. They haven't had ministers working. Ministers who, by the way, have been on pay? I'm just actually, no, ministers haven't been on pay. Ministers not on pay? Politicians on pay?

There haven't been any ministers for two years. But just to be clear, politicians, sorry, drawing away. Politicians have been on two thirds pay. Because they're working in their constituencies. And I think that's important to say. It's good to get clarity because lots of people are angry. Yeah, well, lots of people were angry in 2019 when we had strikes from our health service

about the fact that we didn't have government then as well. And, you know, you can't just erase that. I know maybe people don't want to talk about what happened during three years of Sinn Féin keeping us out of government. But actually, that was a very difficult time and stopped the transformation of the health service, which we had agreed to back in 2016. And a lot of the difficulties that we have now with our health service are because we didn't start the transformation of our health service back in 2016, 2017. So, you know, you can't just erase what happened

in 2017, 18, 19. What do you think the DUP should take responsibility for? Because if some people will be left thinking, who aren't political watchers, what's been achieved potentially today or what's going to be shown, it's taken two years and it was the DUP. Yes, it's taken two years because the government wouldn't come to the place

where we dealt with the issues that had to be dealt with. You know, this isn't a one-party situation. It's a problem that was caused by the United Kingdom government and their negotiation in relation to Northern Ireland around Brexit. I mean, I listen to people saying this is the fault of Brexit, it wouldn't have happened around Brexit. I mean, I listen to people saying this is the fault of Brexit. It wouldn't have happened without Brexit. But actually, there were, of course, other ways to deal with this issue. And not only did the UK government not take up those issues,

but the European Union used it as a way to actually punish the UK for leaving the European Union. The Irish government behaved in a way which was less than helpful in relation to the issues around Northern Ireland. So, you know, we can dole out blame all over the place. But what I'm saying to you today, Emma, is I think this is a positive day. I think we're moving ahead. And I very much hope we see devolved government back very soon. It's important to talk about progress and that wider context. I don't deny that. It's just when you look at things like hospital waiting lists in Northern Ireland, reported to be the worst in the UK, waiting times, Northern Ireland, double that of the Republic. There are a lot of people and you look about teachers. You know, I was reading some of the comments of headteachers in particular in Northern Ireland talk about the education system crumbling, the harming of children. You know, yes, OK, there's been civil servants there, but without ministers, they haven't been able to make those key decisions. Do you think the DUP, in talking about the progress today,

needs to at the same time address what's happened in the last two years to the people? Well, the point is we're not talking about the progress that has been made. We're talking about what has happened over this past two years. And if you want to talk about what happened over this past two years, you have to go back much further. Because as I've said, you can't look at the health service now and not talk about the fact

that we didn't initiate the reform that was needed back in 2017 because we didn't have a government back in 2017 due to the Sinn Féin boycott. Well, you're going to have Michelle O'Neill in charge now. Well, she's not in charge. She's in a mandatory coalition. Well, she's going to be the next,

just to dwell on that, she's going to be the next First Minister of Ireland. Yes, in a joint office with the DUP Deputy First Minister, as I was with a Sinn Féin Deputy First Minister. And they have joint power. Indeed. But the point is, there will be a coming together. That's how it's going to work. And just to take a moment on that, there are some wrongly saying she'll be the first woman to hold the post this morning. Something I hope you can see we've got right here on this programme. But what is it like? What will it be like for you? She will be the first Republican to hold that position. What will that be like for you? Well, as a Democrat, you have to accept the election results and the election results put her in a position to hold the office of First Minister. But you know, I listened to a lot of commentary, a lot of misleading commentary,

and thank you for getting it right that actually she's not the first female First Minister. You know, it is a mandatory coalition. It's a very unique form of government that we have in Northern Ireland. The First Minister's office is actually an office which is a joint office between the First Minister, Michelle O'Neill, the Deputy First Minister, whoever the

DUP decides to put into that position. It may well be another woman. It may well be Emma Little Pengelly. And then we will have two more women at the head of Northern Ireland, which I think is very powerful, actually. And we should celebrate the fact that women in politics are now very much to the fore in Northern Ireland. And I think it's something that is there to be celebrated. But Mary Lou MacdonDonald talking about a united Ireland being in touch and distance. What do you say to that? You know, this is for those, again,

who perhaps don't follow us that closely. They would be interested to hear what you have to say about that. What I have to say about that is I've been listening to that all of my life, Emma. But not with Michelle O'Neill as First Minister? No, no, no. Well, as I say, that's a joint office. So, I mean, I think people should reflect on that.

I know, but people are making, just if I can say, people are making a major deal. Yeah, they are making a major deal of it. Of the fact that there is the first Republican in that position. Administrating British rule in Northern Ireland, yes. That is a moment. That will be a moment, certainly, if we get to that point. Administrating British rule in Northern Ireland. And I a moment. That will be a moment, certainly if we get to that point. Administrating British rule in Northern Ireland.

And I think it's also important to say that any time that Sinn Féin feels a little bit of pressure or their activists are not in a good place, they talk about a united Ireland. So all of the sort of trite stuff that we heard about before that Michelle O'Neill was going to be

a first minister for all, all of a sudden now we're talking about a united Ireland. And the reason that is happening is because they're trying to say to their troops, oh, don't worry, the project is still there. But the project has been talked up, as I say, for all of my life. I'm 53 now and it's going to continue to be talked up. When you look at the polling in Northern Ireland, when you look at the election results, because people forget that actually as a bloc, OK, not as a political party, the DUP is not the largest political party anymore, that's shit to fain. But as a bloc of unionism is still the strongest in Northern Ireland.

But that political success. Because there's a number of different political parties. If I may, that political success has been what has given some more energy to this. That's all. Yes, at the expense of the SDLP, who have fallen away. The other nationalist party in Northern Ireland has fallen away, and Sinn Féin have taken advantage of that. And that's what's happening in politics in Northern Ireland. So people really need to, when they look at the headlines, actually they need to look below the headlines and see what is actually happening in Northern Ireland.

Is it a difficult moment for you personally, seeing Michelle O'Neill? I mean, you talked when you... Well, she was my deputy first minute. Of course, but this moment, which, you know, you may play down for all sorts of reasons, but for other people, it does seem like... Well, I'm not playing down. I'm giving you the reality of the situation, Emma. But it's your version of the reality.

No, it's not my version of the reality. The adjoint office is adjoint office. I know what adjoint office is, but for some people, it does mean something to them. It's a moment to them. And you can't deny other people's views on this. Well, they can have their views. I'm openly about the IRA shooting and severely wounding your father and obviously Sinn Féin's historic association with the IRA. That's why I wondered on a personal level, away from the political reality of a joint office, if this was a bit of a moment or not. Well, in terms of Sinn Féin in politics, generally people find it very difficult,

especially those who have lost loved ones during the troubles. I was very fortunate that my father survived. I was fortunate that I survived a bomb attack on my school bus. I have survived and I live to tell the tale. But there are many in Northern Ireland who have loved ones who didn't live to tell the tale. And the disgraceful thing about Sinn Féin's politics is they still continue to glorify those people who took life and who killed their neighbours in Northern Ireland. And they don't have any remorse for that. And I think that that is fundamentally wrong. And until they reflect on that, it's going to be very difficult to achieve reconciliation in Northern

Ireland. And that's the problem. Well, I think your view of that and characterisation of that will be the same as some people, which is why also going back to what I was saying, they may, even if they know the sharing agreement, may find this a moment. It will be difficult. Yes, indeed. Well, that's what I was trying to get to, to sort of understand that human side of it as well as the political side of it, because it is a very unique situation in Northern Ireland that people sometimes don't quite grasp as well, which I think is important to put forward. Talking to you on four years since we officially left the European Union, I mean, you were a key figure calling for Brexit, then involved in how it was to be delivered and how that worked. Is it galling to see, in this instance, a man in the DUP achieve what you couldn't in terms of the Northern Ireland Protocol? Well, as you know, that's a very trite way of putting it, because we went into a confidence and supply agreement with Theresa May.

The aim was to deliver Brexit for the whole of the United Kingdom. She agreed or tried, she set the parameters for a deal which made it very difficult for Northern Ireland in relation to the border. There could have been a way of dealing with that. So if you want to talk about women letting other women down, I think that's something you could talk about. And the fact that she didn't actually include us in the negotiations in a way that would have been profitable. Instead, she kept us at arm's length.

And I've already said that sometimes I feel that we should have walked away from the confidence and supply agreement earlier. But what we were trying to do was to achieve Brexit for the whole of the United Kingdom. And she set the parameters in a way which made that very difficult. So what do you make of that idea that I hear quite a lot on this programme from some quarters that women, especially when women are in power and women working together, do it better than the men? It doesn't sound like you buy into that.

No, I don't buy into that. I think that's a very generalised way of looking at women in politics. And you could look across the world at different women and talk about that. Nicola Sturgeon, of course, is in the COVID inquiry today. We'll hear all about what happened there.

We could look at Jacinda Ardern in New Zealand and look at the way in which she dealt with COVID. So I don't think it's right. I think it's a very sort of superficial way to look at women in politics. We're all individuals. We all have our faults. We all have our strengths. And I think what is important is that we try and deliver for the people who elect us. And that's what we're there to do. What you hinted at there, and I might be completely wrong, I know you'll correct me, Arlene, is that perhaps you did feel let down by Theresa May. Oh, yes, absolutely.

And you mentioned as women in politics. Was there a part of you that hoped, because you were both quite isolated in terms of how many women there are at the very top, was there a part of pressure and there was no sort of very warm relationship between the two of us even though the DUP were actually keeping her in power during those years of the confidence and supply agreement. I do regret that she didn't work closer with us as a party to try and deliver a Brexit for

everybody in the United Kingdom. I think she regretted that billions of pounds were handed over and she didn't feel you'd kept your side of the bargain. Why did we not keep our side of the bargain? She's not here to say that to you, but I'm sure she would characterise. I'm confused as to why we wouldn't keep our side

of the bargain when we actually kept her in government to deal with issues around the nation and she didn't deliver on those. So, I mean, when you say billions of pounds, those billions of pounds now mean that we have the best broadband connectivity within the United Kingdom and in fact, probably in Europe as well.

And some of the worst healthcare. Yes, because I've already told you in 2017 we didn't have the health transformation because Sinn Féin kept us out of government. So, I mean, you can't say and some of the worst healthcare because they kept us out of government. Well, it's not just that.

It's the last two years of DUP, as some would say. You didn't have the transformation that was promised back in 2016. It never seems to be the DUP's fault, according to you, as the former leader of the DUP. I'm not in the Democratic Union Party anymore. But you're going back to a time when you were not only in it, you were the leader of it. And is there anything you think today, as we do reach this moment that you want to be a moment of positivity, that you think the DUP should take responsibility and say to the people of Northern Ireland

over the last two years about how their lives have been? Do you think there's anything the DUP should take? I think Sir Geoffrey has taken responsibility for that. He has explained why he felt that the protocol had to be sorted out because it wasn't just for unionism. It was for the whole of the people of Northern Ireland. And now that it has been sorted out,

we can get on the front foot again in Northern Ireland. And I think that that is really important. It's slightly different. It's explaining what's happened, not what's gone on and why it's happened. Just to look a little bit further, that's not my opinion. I'm not in the business of sharing that.

You're in the opinion of sharing only your opinion and then not accepting any other views, it seems what I'm putting them to you as people's other views, not their views have to be yours. May I just go to your resignation statement just because we come to the end of our time together? Which I can't remember. I've had a look at it, nor could I. But you did talk about breaking a glass ceiling. You did talk about encouraging other women to thrive in politics, not let the online lynch mobs get you down. And I was also minded to look up again a very striking case.

People may not remember about you, that you did take on someone who defamed you online, the TV presenter, Dr. Christian Jensen, and you won £125,000 in damages. You won that court case. Do you advise that? Now we're a few years on, more into social media than ever before, other platforms. Do you advise that women do take action like that do you take course action where it's appropriate do you take action if they are being defamed online well look I mean I think people are attacked online all the time there's a bit of freedom of speech around that you cannot be thin-skinned when you're involved in politics the The reason I took that case, it wasn't just about me, it was about my family.

And I wasn't prepared to allow someone to talk about my family in that particular way. It went to the very heart of who I was. So that's why I took the case. But I mean, I think for a lot of women online, it's very, very difficult. And I watch some of the young women right across the political spectrum,

not just in Northern Ireland, but here in the UK, have to deal with some really quite dreadful intimidation and threats. And that's why I became involved in the online safety bill in the House of Lords. It's why I advocate for having more women in politics and supported in politics so that they can step forward. It's something I feel very passionately about. It doesn't matter what sort of politics you have. It's important to have women in politics. And we'll see that when the Northern Ireland Assembly comes back.

And we'll see not just at the ministerial level, but you'll see right across the Assembly some very talented young women coming forward. And that's really good for politics and for democracy. Even though they're not necessarily better in the job, as we talked about it, the generalisation. No, but I think it's important that we have a breadth of experience and representation. And I think that's what's really important.

Any advice finally to Michelle O'Neill? I'm sure Michelle has been there before as Deputy First Minister. We've talked about this. She has been the Health Minister, actually, as well. And we've talked a lot about health this morning as well. So she will know what she wants to do. And no doubt will take advice from her leader, Mary Lou MacDonald. Any inspiration finally from Lord Cameron, David Cameron, coming back to frontline politics? Do you maybe want to do a similar return at some point?

I'm quite content doing some broadcasting and doing some political writing and speaking in the House of Lords. I leave the frontline politics to the people who are elected. Yeah, you've joined my job, GB News, I believe. How are you finding that? Are you enjoying it? I'm enjoying it very much, thank you. It's an interesting time certainly, especially this year with so many

elections around the world. Baroness Arlene Foster, really interesting to have you on the programme. Thank you very much. Thank you. There you go. Messages. Oh, can I ask you actually, Arlene? Yeah. How do you express anger just before you go? Do you know, I was thinking about that when you mentioned about getting a plastic bat and hitting things.

It's probably singing Meatloaf very loudly. Which song? Bat Out of Hell, probably. Do you lip sync or are you singing aloud? Oh, singing loud. Properly. When there's nobody else around, of course.

Brilliant. Thank you very much. That was not what I expected, but I'm so happy we remembered to ask. Bariless Arlene Foster there. You are sending in your messages, what you do. And the music is a theme. Dancing to staccato music with a strong beat. For example, You Ought to know by alanis morissette dancing a five rhythms wave um class facilitates the express

expression of emotions says ian the idea that emotions are things that must be vented to get rid of them is out of date it's based on a 19th century metaphor from when freud and co thought emotions work like steam under pressure not true true. Very interesting. If you vent by hitting things, you practice being violent and are more likely to react violently to perceived attacks in future. Better to try to relax, calm down and then think through a more useful response. Get advice from good friends than relying on your own one track ideas. No name on that message, but meatloaf doesn't feature. I express rage by shouting, stomping, slamming doors and occasionally I might throw one of my kids toys on the floor. No soft toys as they don't crash. I grew up in a

male-dominated expressive family and I'm grateful I feel able to let it all out. And another one, says Angie, I write poems and work out my vicious tongue in them. Well an author's just joined me, a debut novelist, Fiona Williams, Maybe she's got a view on this. Who's given us The House of Broken Bricks. It follows a family as they navigate loss, life and race in the English countryside on the Somerset levels, to be more precise. Fiona, good morning. Good morning. Lovely to have you here.

Thank you for having me. Sorry, we're not going to do everything, I promise, about rage. But have you got a view on that? Are you, do you write to release? Oh, gosh, my kids would have a lot to say about my rage um I try I bottle it up and then it all comes screaming out and I'm yeah and then I lose my voice and have to be quiet for a week well congratulations on the book there's um there's a lot of emotions of course in this but it's your main character tell us a bit about the setup here and your main character uh who you know as a woman has two children but has moved to a part of the world she didn't grow up in to the countryside

and is trying to make sense of it a bit isn't she when we meet her so we've got a family who are living on the somerset levels in a really small cottage that kind of backs onto a riverbank and tess who's the mom in the family she she's moved from London, from South East London. And she's left behind her close-knit kind of British Jamaican family to live in this village where her husband grew up and where her children were born. So it's a big move for her, but it's kind of where the family is situated. So she's got to try and like make the best of it. I have to say it's beautiful. For once managed to go all the way from the beginning to the end of the book.

Had a bit of notice. I'm trying to do better this year with making sure I read as much as possible and also reading for pleasure. And, you know, the sights and the smells and the tastes and the sounds, how do you get the images of the nature side of things and also the food?

It's so well drawn. I mean, the nature, I mean, I wrote the book sort of sat by a window looking out on fields and and woods and the landscape and it was impossible not to include it and it's really strange because I grew up in London and I wasn't really connected to the seasons growing up and to nature in in that kind of broad way but moving to Somerset I think it's something that just seeps into you and so it was impossible not to capture it and in terms of the food food for me is a really big

deal both the eating and the cooking of it and I really like how food connects people connects you to family and it's also just a connection to culture as well so there was a lot of food in the novel. She talks as a black woman living in the countryside about some of the comments. She's quite passive, not in herself, but how she responds outwardly to people. Is that based on you? That is probably based on me. I'm quite a passive person.

I think as well as I didn't want it to dominate in the book. I wanted to touch on it, obviously, but I wanted to keep it very much in the background, almost, that these are things that happen every day and you can't sort of stop every day and confront them or say something about them. You can't even really take them on board because the day just continues and things move on.

So she is kind of exposed to moments where she's uncomfortable. But like a lot of people, everybody has moments where they're uncomfortable and you just keep rolling with the day. I suppose what you also do, which is quite rare in today's society where things have to be one thing or the other, can be quite divisive, is she has huge community, though, where she lives as well. And so although things are said, you could suppose quite a lot of them are not said out of malice, but more ignorance. And they have love for her and they have love for her family. I think it was really important

to show how complicated people are and how complicated relationships are that you can, someone can say something to you that you can find uncomfortable. But if the person who's saying it to you is a dear friend or someone that you know has your back in a moment of crisis how do you navigate that and so I really wanted to explore

that and that what's more important sometimes even though you can be uncomfortable it's the underlying relationship with someone and the love between two people in terms of friendship I mean that kind of love that your friends can sometimes say things that are uncomfortable, but you wouldn't necessarily stop your friendship just because of it. Yes. Well, there's also a wonderful portrait in the book drawn of her mother and her sister, Tess's mother and sister, and her mother in particular.

And I know for you that was really powerful and probably quite emotional to do. It was quite powerful because I lost my mum quite a few years ago and there is quite a bit of my mum in Nana. It was emotional, but funnily enough, during the writing, it wasn't emotional. It's now I'm coming back and looking at it kind of afresh that I realised that it was quite an emotional moment. But during the writing, I think I was just quite absorbed in the characters

and in their lives, not my own life. Because we should say place is such a big thing in this, where you're going to live. And she's left London, gone to the countryside on Somerset levels, but she's also dreaming of Jamaica.

She is. And her mum is going to, I'm not ruining anything, I think, by saying this, is going to actually go to Jamaica and have that return yeah but that's not always the case as well you know it's a dream isn't it it's a dream and it's and it's a dream I think people kind of hanker for places thinking that that place will help strengthen their identity and I think that it doesn't always you know you can be a stranger

in a strange land in somewhere that you grew up even when I come back to London even though I love London I feel like a tourist here now it's quite strange coming back I do and I went to university just around the corner I've just walked here and I've gone oh my god it's so different even though I recognize things and I think that I really wanted the book to look at what really is home and what really are you tied to and it's not necessarily the places that I think people think it is and also if you've only at what really is home and what really are you tied to. And it's not necessarily the places that I think people think it is. And also, if you've only been somewhere not, you know, a very short time, but perhaps not that long compared to where you were before,

the grounding, the feeling like it's where you're meant to be, can happen without you noticing and you can perhaps take it for granted. You can. And it's often about the people and not the place at all. And I think if you're somewhere where you've got strong connections, then you're at home and that could be anywhere. So you don't necessarily have to be with those who are like you? No, no, I don't think so. And I think I really wanted that to come across in the book,

that home can be just your relationship to the landscape and to the earth that you're standing on at that particular moment and as long as you've got people around you that support you and love you then you're at home and that can be anywhere. I think it's also a bit of a meditation on you know why we choose that make the decisions we make and how they then seem to shape so many other things but you don't always know you're making a big decision while you're making it I think so and I think that for Tess she's kind of she feels that being back in London she'll be more herself she'll be with family but she is herself and she is with family and I think it's that slow realization that some of the decisions you make you don't need to make my heart broke

the whole way through for her husband who seems to be having a major crisis in the garden, making a fruit and veg shop work very badly, it seemed. And I don't, again, want to ruin anything, but there is some redemption there. But he is very separate. You foregrounded the woman and her children. I know because he's in third person. So he has got that sense of removal. I did want him to be quite detached. I was very worried about Richard.

Everybody's always worried about Richard. I was worried about Richard. I thought, poor Richard. But I think it was really important because, A, I didn't want people to be in Richard's head. Because obviously Richard's doing things and he's busy. So I wanted to keep his inner thoughts quite secret. And also, he's not having the same identity crisis that his family are having. He's at home. He's in his home village.

I mean, he's got his own worries. You know, his business is failing. He's not the farmer that his father and his grandfather were. But in terms of his character, he's at home and comfortable. So he was on the periphery a little bit. This book is called The House of Broken Bricks. You're listening to Fiona Williams. If you're just joining us, I do get feedback.

Please can you remind us of the title of the book that you're talking about? But you have won the Bridport Peggy Chapman Andrews First Novel Award. That is a mouthful. It's a long time. No disrespect to that award. Congratulations. Thank you. Is this your job now?

You're a debut novelist. Are you now a writer? Apparently so. Although I'm still trying to get used to that whole idea. For me, this is the first thing I've ever written. Because what were you doing as a job before? I did a science degree. I was a medical writer. I've been working for Pharma all over the world.

I kind of write really boring science journal articles and things like that. So this was a real departure for me. I loved the writing of it. It was reallyartic and and freeing um I am starting something new so I think the trend is continuing um but yeah I can't I don't call myself a novelist or an author yet though I feel like not yet I've got to do some more work something else something else first I think but I'm getting comfortable with saying I write I think that's as far as I'm willing to go well you do it's here I've been hanging out with this product oh this lovely design as well um on the cover here uh congratulations thank you on it the house of broken bricks uh which you'll

understand when you when you read the book but we've talked a bit more haven't we about foundation and yeah where you are and how you are as a person um and there is a huge emotional twist we should say but i did very well not to give it away because i only found out last night all the best thank you thank you so much thank you um we've got a message here loving your discussion on where home is i live in cornwall and my family have been here for over 400 years i've lived elsewhere but there is an overwhelming sense of belonging here. And another one here, a message saying, how do I express rage? I roar in capital letters. Need I say more? No, I get it. Come on. I think I've done that. I've done all sorts.

Not bought a plastic bat though. I think we probably have one, a cricket bat of my son's at home somewhere. I'm sure I could reach for it, but that doesn't quite appeal. I think I'm with our texter who talks about how to let it all out maybe in a different way. But sometimes you just need to roll. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now let me talk to you about this story that's been followed by the BBC and brought to light.

Thames Valley Police has referred itself to the policing regulator after BBC journalists have revealed that officers ridiculed an assault victim while watching body-worn video showing her semi-naked. The woman's body was exposed when she was filmed suffering from a seizure, and three Thames Valley police PCs later watched the footage without reason. They didn't need to. None of the officers faced a misconduct hearing, but the student officer who reported them for this behaviour was later dismissed. The force says the remarks were unacceptable and PCs were sanctioned. But what

impact do these reports have on the confidence of women in engaging with the police? Today, new figures from the domestic abuse charity Refuge from a recent YouGov poll show of a thousand women, 53% felt the police had made not much or no progress in addressing problems of sexism and misogyny among police officers over the last 12 months. Well, just before coming on air, I spoke to Harriet Wistrich, the founder and director of the Centre for Women's Justice. But first, I spoke to the BBC's investigations correspondent, Noel Tithridge, who's been working on this story. And I started by asking Noel what happened in this case. Well, this all began a year ago when officers arrested a woman on suspicion of assault while she was on a night out in Newbury Town Centre.

The 21-year-old was handcuffed and placed in leg restraints in a police van. She then began vomiting and losing consciousness while being driven to the police station. Her seizure was recorded on officer body-worn video with the woman's chest and groin exposed. The van was redirected to hospital where she was street bailed, meaning the officers left her there to be treated. The next day, an officer analysed CCTV of the incident. It showed that the woman was, in fact, the victim of an assault. We're told the female officer leading the case then decided to take no further action. But later that shift, she began watching the body-worn video whilst sat at her desk in Newbury Police Station. Three male PCs then gathered around

her laptop and watched the footage while making comments described as sickening by a student video while sat at her desk in Newbury Police Station. Three male PCs then gathered around her laptop and watched the footage while making comments described as sickening by a student officer who was also in the room. He wrote a whistleblowing report about what happened, which we've seen. It describes how one officer mocked the woman's appearance while another asked to see footage of her genitalia. Officers also discussed how much they'd need to be paid to have sex with her. One said £500,000. The BBC spent months trying to find the woman. When we finally spoke to her, she said the force had never told her what had happened,

but she wanted the public to know how officers had behaved. Her words are voiced by an actor. That's the last thing I'd expect them to do. It makes me feel betrayed. If I can't trust the police, then you really can't trust anybody, can you? The police are supposed to be the people you go to when you need help. Imagine how these officers must react when there's victims or women getting abused or say they have to go out on a job and there's a woman that's been hurt and isn't dressed properly.

Has this happened more than once? And do they do it with every female that they come into contact with that hasn't got all their clothes on? I think they should have been arrested. It should have been looked into and they should have been charged for what they did. But by the looks of it, it's different if you work for the police, which I think is disgusting. They can clearly get away with anything. It's very powerful words, as you say, voiced by an actor. What happened when that student officer blew the whistle, Noel? Well, following the officer's report, an investigation was launched by the force's professional standards department. The student officer says he was immediately shunned by colleagues in response and expected

to leave. Now, around six months later, he was told he wasn't a fit physically or mentally to be a police constable and dismissed. He says he has no doubt that he was sacked for whistleblowing. The BBC has learned that none of the officers involved in the incident faced misconduct hearings which would have been held in public. Nor did the force voluntarily refer the officer's behaviour to the regulator, the Independent Office for Police Conduct. A former chief prosecutor, Nazir Afzal, told us the force has covered up behaviour which is massively damaging to public confidence. It's a horror story of misogyny and sexism. Here we have somebody who's really vulnerable

and yet the police took advantage of it. In old-fashioned language, it would be called a cover-up. There is no doubt that this would have a significant impact on public confidence and so in those circumstances, the IOPC should be engaged. The police need to have the confidence of the public and that's by having a transparent process, not one that's in secret, carried out behind closed doors. The policing regulator has now told the BBC

that it would have also expected the force to immediately refer the conduct so it could decide whether an independent investigation was required. It said that this had now happened following our investigation. And what has the force said? Thames Valley Police told us it's thankful the student officer reported what he saw and the ending of his employment was an entirely separate matter. In a statement it said that the disclosure has been treated seriously and the student officer was moved to a different station following his report and supported through his complaint. It also said some officers involved faced misconduct meetings,

which are held in private, and were sanctioned in response. The force repeatedly refused to confirm whether one of the officers involved later joined its protection group. That's a team which provides security to VIPs when they visit the area, only saying that none of them are currently a member of any close protection detail. A spokesperson for the Home Office said that while the vast majority of officers work tirelessly to keep the public safe, action must be taken swiftly to address failings. It declined to say whether it has any plans to introduce changes to how body-worn video is used,

but said existing guidance on standards was already governed by data protection law. I mean, we just need to put this in a bit more context, don't we? Which is that this is not the first of this kind of case, which could really harm the public's trust, specifically women's trust in the police. Well, that's right. A slew of appalling crimes have been revealed in recent years, including the rape and murder of Sarah Everard and the uncovering of serial rapist David Carrick. Other cases have thrown the spotlight on how officers treat women in the course of their duties. Metropolitan police officers were jailed for taking photographs of two murdered sisters, while Greater Manchester

Police is currently being investigated over allegations that women were mistreated in custody. Last year, the BBC revealed that officers had also been misusing body-worn video in a variety of ways, from switching off cameras and deleting footage to sharing videos on WhatsApp. This included an officer sharing a nude image filmed on body cam with colleagues over email and the deleting of footage in which a vulnerable woman alleged she'd been raped by an inspector. There's been a commitment to tackle misconduct and Home Secretaries have promised to hold forces to account. But campaigners say not enough is being done to tackle the problem. Thank you for that.

Listening, Harriet Wistrich, founder and director of the Centre for Women's Justice. Just specifically on this case, we just heard a lot of detail about other cases. What is your reaction? Well, unfortunately, it is, as Noel described, not a unique case. We hear about these sorts of cases a lot. I think what's interesting about it in recent years is that body-worn camera footage can actually capture sometimes this kind of behaviour, whereas previously, if there was this sort of abuse, It might not even be known about or if somebody complained, the complaint would never be upheld

because it was one person's word against another. So there are certainly advantages around it, but clearly this was also about a misuse of body-worn footage because those officers should never have been watching it in the first place, let alone making those sorts of abusive comments or remarks. You're very cross, you know, these cases, but also what needs to change. You've been involved with trying to make that happen. Very involved. Where are we? Well, three years ago, before the murder of Sarah Alvarad, had been gathering together

a whole series of cases around police perpetrated abuse, particularly domestic abuse in that case. And we'd identified a whole series of systemic failings in the system, which were undermining confidence, but also were revealed lack of confidence to report, failures to investigate, failures to deal with misconduct processes and the use by police officers of powers improperly in order to continue to persecute or victimise those victims. Now, since that time, and since we've had, as has been pointed out, a lot of publicity around those issues, many more women have come forward to us. So we've continued to gather data and we're kind of compiling additional information really about the extent to which things have changed. And we've looked at

the multiple numbers of promises that have been made for change. Louise Casey in her report for the Met Police described something called initiativitis, which is the announcement of lots of different initiatives, but where are those being seen through? And so what we are really wanting to do at this stage is examine, well, let's look at all the different things that you've announced that have promised change, and let's see whether they are actually being enforced. And that requires a huge commitment across all the forces. So it's not just a Met problem. This was a Thames Valley case, as we've heard. We've seen this across most, almost every

police force. We've heard problems and accounts like that. Some are definitely worse than others. Different areas are worse than others. But it is a systemic problem and there needs to be a whole raft of changes introduced, some of which have been announced and adopted, some of which aren't as yet being adopted. Do you think a map would be useful of the forces who are worse than others? Yes, I mean, it's... Because you obviously, you know all of this. You said that with a rueful smile, but you know, it's the truth. We kind of have been drawing up our own map so we have but it's not it's not a scientific thing one of one of the things actually

that we are arguing for is much better recording of data because this is not systematically recorded in a way that is meaningful all we can say is from we've been contacted by nearly 200 women uh which is a lot but it's it's by no means the whole picture. And we can count which forces crop up more often than not. And from that, we've identified one or two forces that are really failing in this particular issue. But it's not really a scientific basis for it. So yes, that would be useful. I mean, I think there is last couple of weeks ago, the police, the National Police Chiefs Council published something called a data wash, which was a review from their own sort of self recording and self reporting of the extent of complaints of sexual misconduct that appear to reveal, you know, very low numbers. And that kind of raised questions again about the way in which these things are reported or recorded and dealt with. The domestic abuse charity Refuge has released new figures from a recent YouGov poll of 1000

women, which shows 53% feel the police has made not much or no progress in addressing problems of sexism and misogyny among police officers over the last year. Do you still want women to be in a position, if they are sadly in a position where they've had a crime happen to them or around them, do you still say you must go to the police? What do you feel about that at the moment? Well, I think if they don't go to the police, the perpetrators are getting away with it. And we can't really come to a position where we say there's no point going to the police at all. But I fully understand why some women, and particularly women, for example,

from black and minoritised communities or others where they're particularly ill-served, just don't have the confidence. But we need to find ways to provide reassurance and confidence and mechanisms like bespoke reporting, external investigations, IOPC oversight, various things if they are more implemented to ensure that there is assurance that they can't be let down or abused in the way that so many women have. So, you know, it would be pure defeatism to say, you know, don't go to the police. But I fully understand why many feel that they can't. Harriet Wistrich, founder and director of the Centre for Women's Justice. And before that,

I was speaking to Noel Titheridge, the BBC investigations correspondent who tracked down that individual woman. Now, I mentioned right at the start of the programme about French women, more and more of them keeping their feet firmly on the floor. It's out with heels and in with trainers for some of them. That's what's happening in France, where according to a poll,

women are falling out of love with high heels. Amen. Instead going for a chunky boot or a comfortable trainer. But the high heel is ingrained in French history. Louis XIV being known to wear them and asking others or demanding others around to do the same. Up to the image of the stylish French woman in heels and a long coat that we see today.

Why the change? Serena Dyer, Associate Professor of Fashion History and Material Culture at De Montfort University. And Marie Lefond is a French shoe designer. Welcome to you both. Serena, just to go to the history first of all, especially in relation to France, what can we say? Well, the high heel was originally an incredibly masculine thing in 17th century France. So this was introduced by Persian soldiers who sent a delegation in the 17th century France. So this was introduced by Persian soldiers who sent a delegation

in the 17th century, because high heels were an important part of Persian military dress. The heel would essentially slip onto the stirrup and would keep you nice and secure in your horse while you're riding around so that you can safely shoot arrows at your enemies. So this was seen as an incredibly powerful masculine thing in 17th century France so it became very very popular at the French court but just for men. Just for men and but we're not talking about a stiletto? No this is quite quite a chunky heel. They're quite high though. They could be up to one and a half to two inches high. So they're something quite, you know, substantial. And they were also a class demarcation as well. Absolutely. So under Louis XIV, who was the incredibly powerful French monarch who built Versailles, who had this wonderfully rich court, he set up these

things called sumptuary laws. So these were literal laws about what you were and weren't allowed to wear. And one of those was specifically who could wear different types of high heel, enforcing that certain noble people had to wear them, even down to the minute eye of, if you're this rank, they can be an inch high. And if you're this rank, they can be an inch and a half high. So really detailed rules so that you can tell social status through your high heels. Well, what are you going to get your social status from now, Marie? If we bring it to the modern day, why are we seeing French women turn away?

So the choose French women were one more comfort over the year because the French women now you know are biking, dancing, running after the bus, they're taking the subway, they're very active life and they want shoes that they compliment them in this way. And the French women don't want to compromise between comfort or aesthetic as they should not. They want to have both now. So they want to stay super elegant, but not necessarily in stiletto. Or maybe it can be a heel, but you need to be very, very comfy,

which I provide in my next collection with the pillow shoes, for example. Yes, we should say as a shoe designer you you've worked for bigger companies now you work designing for for your own brand and the the what sort of tests do you put shoes through to to try that make sure that they are both stylish and comfortable yeah so that's the idea when you are your designer, you can try the shoes. So basically, I try all my samples for months in a different situation, running after school to pick up my kids on time or to go to an opening, art opening, or to even be able to dance all night long in a wedding because the worst thing happens when you wear a heel, and especially when they're not comfortable, is to back home because you're so uncomfortable.

You can stand up and, you know. Yes. So there's a rigorous testing there. Serena, to come back to you, I mean, a lot of people talking about COVID and big moments in history which then change fashions. And, you know, the idea of a heel, how you described it and then moving it to women, we sort of in some ways sound like we've gone full circle if women are going back to a block heel that men were wearing in French history. Because the stiletto was also, we should say, a relatively new invention and, you know, a sort of come up with by a man, Kelsa Prees, with, you know, a steel, a piece of steel just at the bottom of the shoe. Absolutely. So it's a 20th century invention.

It was all about elongating the leg, how women's sexuality was expressed through the leg, which, interestingly enough, is also part of the 18th century French men's version because legs were incredibly important in finding an 18th century man sexy. So we've seen that connection there. We've seen technology being really important there. But this also is, it's not just heels that are brought back by these moments of innovation and by these moments of technology. It's also fashions for flats. So we've seen this cycle happen in the past. So for example, during the French Revolution, when everything was all about ideas, again, of practicality, of reason, of judgment, you know, this is the end of a period that we often call the Enlightenment. Men and women turned towards flat shoes then, but it was incredibly short-lived. We always see these peaks and troughs that are responding to political moments, cultural moments, technological changes.

But I suppose the idea of women living much more active lives, like we were just hearing from Marie, is not going to change. I mean, that isn't going to go away. So do you think that's the end of the stiletto for the majority? Because if you look at what women are wearing when they walk around day to day, it has changed in France and here in the UK. Absolutely.

But I do think that there's always going to be these moments in our lives when the stiletto will still hold power. So, for example, lots of women, as you say, being active, going to the office, that sort of thing, they're going to wear their you say being active going to the office that sort of thing they're going to wear their trainers they're going to be comfy when they're in that boardroom they're going to put their high heels back on because it has that embodied kind of sense of power or i think it's incredibly disempowering do you yeah i mean i know i'm not you know it's not about what i think necessarily but i do think to represent that view you know yes it can be very

powerful for people but marie to bring you back in you know you sit differently your posture is differently it's different when you're walking but if you're in a work environment it's suddenly not like you you could argue the other way of this yeah exactly and it's also by um so the the heel is also how you wear it because you can wear like flat shoes and be more elegant than wearing heels and do not know how to work with and doesn't look super elegant so like the like you say earlier is very um it's very different the personality but also the the the comfort of the shoes is not the end of stiletto because you know the fashion go away and come back like all the time. But it's more an evolution of how we can make the stiletto

very comfortable in the future and able to suit everyone correctly and be able to do everything with the stiletto or not, you know, like flat shoes. So looking at how perhaps you can make it come true in the future. And a lot of people, Serena, will agree with you, but they'll maybe feel that they want to wear it. I'm going to put it in my charger. They'll want to wear it, excuse me for the interruption there,

they'll want to wear it in their private lives, perhaps, of an evening. Absolutely. And I think that that's one of the really powerful and fabulous things about fashion is that people experience wearing different types of garments in different ways. You know, some women wear trousers and find that incredibly empowering. Other women like to wear mini skirts or long dress, you know, there's lots and lots of variation in how different people experience their own bodies and want to express their sense of power

through those garments. So I don't think that the high heel will ever go away because some women are always going to find that empowering. And as we said at the beginning as well, this isn't necessarily ever going to just stay a woman's fashion item either. This isn't necessarily about subjecting women to having to wear high heels in the boardroom where men don't. We're seeing... I don't think I've seen a boardroom picture yet with a man in high heels or certainly in stilettos. No, but if Louis XIV ever managed to time travel and come back, then I think he would be. So I think that we potentially will continue to see, not in the next decade or two perhaps,

but within centuries, certainly, we'll continue to see these evolutions. Yeah, well, there's a message here saying, at five foot three with short chunky legs, thick ankle flat shoes are unflattering. I have to have a heel. In the 70s, I wore very high platform boots to forge my way into a male dominated newsroom. Not only did they make me look taller than many men, but they made a fantastic noise coming down the corridor. Yeah, the acoustics of it are something else. Marie, just very briefly from you, you mentioned about women not knowing how to walk in them. I mean, you could say you're already on to a losing battle if women have got to learn how to walk in a particular shoe.

But there is actually a talent to it. There is a skill, isn't there? Yeah, the thing is better to not wearing heels if you don't know how to walk with. Because, for example, I used to work for Christian Louboutin and honestly, the model Pigalle is a model only Kate Moss can wear because you are really in, how can I say, your balance of body is not stable at all.

It's like the kind of shoes you cannot wear unless you're Kate Moss. What is the point, saying you work there for Christian Louboutin, what is the point making a shoe that only Kate Moss can wear, Just for the stunt? I mean, because the balance isn't correct. It's extraordinary. Good question. You should ask him. Okay, there you go. It is and now and probably in the future, men designers, shoe men designers, they don't try the shoes. So at the end, they don't know how the comfort is or not. And if you see the women brands who try the shoes, in general, they're more comfortable

because at the end, we we're gonna wear the shoes yes well um good luck with your work and shoe designing uh marie lefond there a french shoe designer and serena dye associate professor of fashion history and material culture at de montfort university be fascinating to see and going back to rage, bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host, but anger's like fire. It burns it all clean from Maya Angelou. Reads that text that's been sent in. How do I express anger? I vote.

There you go. No plastic bats required. As a yoga teacher, I can really recommend letting out anger, tension or frustration with the breath, with a ha to really purge or a sigh to calm and let go more gently. But my favourite when really angry at something is to let out a big breath like a fire-breathing dragon and imagine I'm frying it to an absolute crisp. Guarding Freud, do not hold your anger in your body, release, reads this message. Thank you very much and more to that effect having been

inspired by the discussion of buying a plastic bat and hitting things this morning by the self-appointed wellness guru and actor Gwyneth Paltrow. You have been responding in kind. Thank you for your company and your comments this morning. I'll be back with you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

30 years ago, Britain's farms were hit by an epidemic of an infectious brain disorder. They called it mad cow disease. I'm Lucy Proctor, and in The Cows Are Mad from BBC Radio 4, I tell the story of a very weird time in our history. The media started calling me the mad cow professor. Mad cow disease rampaged through Britain, first killing cows and then humans. And the thing is, after all this time, nobody knows for sure where mad cow disease originally came from. The general feeling

is that we will never know the answer. Subscribe to The Cows Are Mad on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.