Woman's Hour - Arrest of stalked woman, Endometriosis, Ageism at work, Egg donation

Episode Date: April 8, 2026

Student Jodie Morrow talks to Nuala McGovern about her ordeal of being arrested after her stalker falsely accused her of stalking him. He has now been jailed after pleading guilty to harassment and perverting the course of justice, and the Police Service of Northern Ireland has acknowledged "shortcomings" in how the case was handled. Jodie is now helping the police to try to improve how they handle stalking cases.The All-Party Parliamentary Group on Endometriosis is launching an Inquiry into endometriosis and the workplace. The inquiry follows the latest data from Endometriosis UK showing it takes on average nine years and four months for diagnosis of endometriosis in the UK, a statistic that hasn’t improved in over a decade. Labour MP Kirsteen Sullivan, who chairs the inquiry, and Bethan Allen, who has the condition, discuss how this can be improved and what employers should do to support sufferers.If you’re in your 50s and feeling as though the workplace is quietly moving on without you, overlooked or pushed out, you’re not alone. Author Lucy Standing argues that this could in fact be the most powerful decade of your working life, if you rethink how a career should look. And Eleanor Mills, who runs a website for midlife women, or “Queenagers” as she calls them, argues this period of life is not about decline, but about being on the cusp of something transformative. Each year egg donation enables between 2,000 and 3,000 women to have children who otherwise wouldn’t be able to. One woman, Gini Bhogal, helped someone in this way after donating her eggs to a woman she met randomly on a London Tube. It began on a crowded carriage in the early 90s, and when she spoke about it on social media she says the reaction was overwhelming. Gini and Christopher, the child born from that donation, explain how he came to be conceived and how he found out about his origins.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Melanie Abbott

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Neula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, in a moment, Jodie Morrow, who reported being stalked, but instead was arrested for being a stalker in Northern Ireland. The police there have now apologised. We're going to hear her story.

Also today, there are millions of tube jerseys. journeys in London every day. But one random conversation with a stranger changed a number of lives forever. We're going to hear from the donor who gave her eggs to a woman who just happened to be seated beside her. We're also going to hear from the man who is the result of that conversation. We have the Labour MP, Christine Sullivan, who is leading an inquiry into the chronic illness endometriosis. The inquiry wants to understand the challenges of managing endometriosis at work, so we'll talk about that. And staying with work, are you over 50?

Is your age an advantage or a disadvantage when it comes to the world of work? I put a bet you have some thoughts on that. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note,

the number is 0300-100-444-4. We're going to talk about what you can do for career reinvention as a woman over 50. Lots of tips that will help, I'm sure, no matter what age you are. So if you'd like to get in touch 84844 on how you found it, I don't know, did you come up against any obstacles? Maybe it's wonderful.

Some research says you're at peak performance between the ages of 55 and 60. Not consensus on it, but let me know how you're feeling. Maybe you're listening to me while you are at work right now. But I want to begin in Northern Ireland. As I mentioned, police there have apologised over serious failures in a stalking case, admitting shortcomings in how it was handled.

The Ulster University student Jody Morrow repeatedly reported concerns about Reagan Granger, who has since changed his name to Ezra Garfield. But he was not arrested at that point. Instead, she was detained following false allegations against her. Now, more than five years later, Garfield. was jailed after pleading guilty to harassment and perverting the course of justice, with police now working with Jody to improve how stalking and harassment cases are handled. I do want to let you know you may find some of the details that Jody tells us distressing.

Jody, thank you so much for joining us this morning on Women's Hour. Thank you for having me. Can you take us back to the beginning? How did you first meet this man? So originally we matched on Tinder during lockdown. and we spoke for a couple months online and then finally met up whenever the restrictions lifted over the summer like July-August time.

And at that stage, what was happening? He was the loveliest guy I had dated up to that point. He was so normal. We went on lovely dates. Yeah, there was absolutely no red flags in the beginning. There was no sort of sign that it was going to go the way I ended up going. And then what was the point of change?

The point of change was he, there was, sort of end of summer, it was, I was about to go back to uni and I was sort of thinking, oh, you know, maybe not carry this into a proper relationship. You know, he seems nice, but I don't know if there's big spark. So I was going to end things anyway. And long story short, he ended up having quite a few drinks while we were out and I was, you know, building my confidence to have the conversation to let him down gently. And over the course of the night, he got so drunk that he ended up admitting to me that he had been on bail the entire time that we had been seeing each other for, uh, uh, The way he phrased it at the time was threatening a girl with sexual violence, which obviously was absolutely terrifying to hear as the woman who was currently out for drinks of him. So, yeah, he ended up passing out in my flat and I had to work out how to get him home. It was from Enniskellen. We were in Belfast at the time, so his family had to drive two hours to come pick him up. So he was asleep for most of that, thank goodness. But it was an absolutely insane night.

I just couldn't completely process what had been said to me. and the ramifications of that. And yeah, I was just sort of doing the thing of being focused on just need to get this guy home and deal with it later. So obviously you never wanted to see him again, but it didn't end there.

What happened? Yeah, initially he seemed really reasonable about it. He said, you know, I understand if you never want to see me again, he was looking at me to message him back and let him know what I was thinking. And I said, just give me a couple of days. And when I finally came back and said, you know, you've been lovely,

but there's absolutely no way I can keep speaking to you. This has to end. He then switched and that was it. That was when he started being really, really angry, saying, you know, that I was the worst person that I had led him on, that he at this stage revealed to me that he had applied for Ulster University where I was about to go to my second year and he told me he had applied for me and that he was doing all the stuff from me.

He had booked accommodation next to me, all of this, which he hadn't let on about until this point where I was ending things. And I was like, well, that's a bit ridiculous. because we barely know each other. And at that stage, I said, you need to stop contacting me, don't contact me again. And that was sort of around that time then

after I blocked him or removed him on Snapchat, that he started pretending to be his parents to message me, saying that he had left home and was in my flat and they needed to come get him. And I was saying, that's insane. And he's not here. I've told him I'd never want to speak to him again. And it just sort of escalated from there,

pretending to be his parents, pretend to be his friends. Sorry, Jody, for speaking of you. But what was going through your head because this was something that was quite casual, realize massive red flag. I don't even know what the word is we would use to describe that, obviously, when he confessed that he was on bail.

And then you're getting these messages. Yeah, it was all a lot. The world was a little bit disjointed at the time because it was whenever the lockdown had lifted, university was fully online. So everything at the time sort of felt a little bit surreal and this just felt like an extra layer of, you know, everything feels a bit a bit not real at the minute.

But yeah, I mean, the entire time I just kept thinking he's going to get bored, this will blow over. Like I initially didn't want to go to the police. I didn't want to make a bigger deal out of it than it needed to be. I just hoped he would, you know, stop contacting me. And unfortunately, I think it was about two weeks of him pretending to be his parents by the time my mom said, this is this ridiculous, you need to phone the police.

And so you did? Yes. So I started going to, it was North Belfast Police because I was in York Street. and yeah I went over the course of a few months I think I give three or four statements to the police continually updating them. Initially it was just a case of them checking the numbers

trying to make sure that it was definitely him contacting me and they issued a warning against him to tell him to stop contacting me and again at every stage obviously knowing how long it's went on now it doesn't seem about the time I kept thinking you know this will end that the next thing that I do will be the thing that stops this and it just kept escalating and at the time I was aware obviously he had told me about this case in Manchester

I made the police aware of it and I was sort of thinking he's told me his broken bail conditions they're going to be able to do something with that and that'll be the end of it but they couldn't they weren't able to cross reference with the case in Manchester I think because of disjointed systems and things like that so yeah it was something that I thought

should have been a really easy open shut case where other women have already come forward this should be easy for me and it's just not what happened it just carried on I will read a little of what the police have said to us this morning. They say as a victim-focused organisation, the Police Service of Northern Ireland remains fully committed

to tackling violence against women and girls. Our officers acted quickly to accurately establish the facts around the circumstances of what was reported to us. This was a complex investigation from the outset. It became clear that Garfield had intended to portray himself as a victim to make the real victim in this case look like an offender. This manipulative behaviour was concerned. completely abhorrent and caused even further unnecessary and wanted distress to her.

Our officers acted in good faith and on the information available to them at the time. Let's talk about that part. So tell us what happened and I'll read a little more of the statement a little later from the police. What happened in terms of me getting arrested? In terms of you getting arrested, exactly. You had gone to the police, you had told them everything that had happened to you. Then. So to set the scene, this was about three, three and a half, four months into me getting constant harassment. And when I say constant, it was incessant. It was constant messages. He made, I don't

know how many different accounts, like pretending to be all of his friends, creating these group chats, all aimed at getting me to try and contact him saying, you know, this would all, you know, he's mentally unwell, he's going to harm himself, he's threatening to do X, Y, Z, and it will all be fixed if she just contacts him. He's waiting outside her flat. He just is dying to talk to her. And, um, So this has been going on and on and on and on. And I was so exhausted by it. We're, you know, well into my first semester of second year. I'm working at a cafe.

I'm doing my uni. And it's coming up to Christmas. I at this stage had already went to the university about it. I had started the process of putting a complaint in with them. And they assured me that, you know, they'd be able to handle it. And I was talking to different people in the abstincheon to coordinate all that. and we're coming up to loads of Christmas dinners and all my mates

and I'm getting constant phone calls from the police over the course of about a week saying this guy has come forward he's accused you of harassment and this is the warning call to tell you to stop contacting him so everything that I had went through to get them to do for him

they started doing for me and I was like whoa whoa this is ridiculous like I've been coming to you guys for months you have at least three or four statements from me documenting what this guy has been up to there's absolutely no way I've been harassing him I haven't contacted him. Initially, they said that I was sending him threatening messages on Instagram,

which at the point where on the day that they ended up arresting me, I was supposed to go into the PlayStation the following day to do a voluntary interview. And instead, he went and gave them another statement with new evidence that they deemed was bad enough that they needed to immediately investigate. So I'd come out of an early shift. I'd worked 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock. And I was coming out on my shift. and I was so used to coming on to my shift and having all these missed calls

and all these messages, but this time there was calls from the police and from my accommodation and I couldn't find the police back but when I spoke to the accommodation I said the police were waiting for me so I phoned my mum in the way, spoke to her, you know, at this stage

it was the norm, so I was saying oh, gonna go speak to the police again, they're gonna interview me, ask whatever, I'll let you know how it goes after and instead what happened was when they interviewed me, it wasn't about these messages they said they had already established that the messages were falsified

because it was so obvious at which stage I was thinking well then why are you investigating anything he's given you if you've established he's the guy's giving you fake information and he's obviously giving the runaround but they were not able to immediately disprove that I phoned him

17 times in the space of 20 minutes which I was saying he's going to the school of art he's obviously photoshopped a screenshot like I did not phone him so he's obviously doctored evidence and they said no it wasn't a screenshot he was able to physically scroll through his phone and what it ended up being was he had downloaded a spoofing app, which I had already reported it to the police

because when he downloaded that app, I got a verification code to my phone. Right. It shows, I think, so much. I was reading about this with England and Wales. They talk about an almost 50-fold increase in stalking cases in England and Wales over the past decade, but a lot of it is because the way technology can be used both to track people or to trick people,

which I think is what you're talking about here. But I'm just thinking, I mean, Jody, what went through your mind when you were arrested? Well, initially I didn't realize I was being arrested. Initially, I thought it was just, I'm going to go in and give another statement. You know, I've been through this already. And then whenever they were, you know,

they said, we need to take you into Musgrave. Do you want to go change? Do you want to leave your stuff here? And I was like, oh, no, they told me it at BNR. So I was like, oh, no, it's fine. Like, don't worry about it. I'll just come with you. And then when we were out to the conference,

they started reading me my rights and I was like oh this isn't just an interview anymore this is this is more serious than that I'm getting arrested and they seized my phone and it was a Friday and by the time they brought me in it was sort of getting into Friday evening they were had to wait an hour because they needed a woman to do the search of me so there was no women available immediately so it was sort of a waiting game of waiting for that then going through the getting searched being processed in and then I finally got my phone call to phone my mum, who was obviously waiting on hearing from me from my Facebook before. And I like, yeah, it was it was a bit heartbreaking, happy to tell my mom that I mean, you laugh about it now. I think

in disbelief still looking back. But, but I mean, what was going through your mind at that time? Were you scared? Were you afraid of being framed in some way? Yeah, I think I, I just, I, shock and disbelief really characterizes the whole thing. Well, I was the entire time just thinking, you know, I just couldn't believe they fell for it. I just thought, you know, how much evidence did you need against him to not take any of this seriously? And yeah, it was a little bit scary. It was a really rowdy Friday night. It was a complete experience being in a cell, hearing all the shouting getting on Friday night and thinking,

what am I doing here? I've just left my cafe job. I should be at home doing uni work. So, yeah, it was insane. And it just took so long. It's just the entire, at every stage, every process was so long. It was in Musgrave for about five or six hours at the point where... And Musgrave is?

Musgrave for the PlayStation. There you go. All right, just a little bit more from the police statement. They talked about how Garfield, your harasser, intended to portray himself as a victim and make the real victim in this case look like the offender. They went to say, our officers acted in good faith and on the information available to them at the time. We've been speaking to the victim directly and acknowledged our shortcomings and have provided reassurance to her

that we will make great efforts to ensure this does not happen again. Throughout this case, investigators worked with a number of police services across the UK in order to locate Garfield and bring him to justice before the court, which has happened earlier this year. So he has been convicted.

But I'm wondering, I don't know, how you feel at the moment, you are working with them, which I think is also really interesting as an outcome off this case. Tell me about that. Yeah, so whenever the court finally went through, he was supposed to be sentenced, I think, back in 2024. So bearing of mind how many times I got told he's going to get sentenced today

and then something came up that didn't happen. I kind of, every time my hopes were raised, but by the time he actually got sentenced, I don't think I was actually prepared for it because I was just waiting for it to fall through again. So it all felt like a bit of a whirlwind when the sentencing actually happened and I got read out the entire case with the judge and it was all sort of bringing all a bit up.

I've spoken about it a lot to a lot of different people, but hearing it all laid out that way, it was a bit jarring. And then very quickly, there was obviously a court reporter and the news articles came out, and Alison Morris did a Belltale article in the Belfast Telegraph. And it was her headline. She had asked the PS&I if they would apologize.

They went with the party line of, you know, I'd already went to the ombudsman and they'd established that they had a right to investigate. So her headline was something like, you know, police refuses to apologize. So that was what triggered. them phoning me and saying, you know, do you want, they asked me, do I want an apology, which I thought was a weird way to put it. And I said, honestly, no, I didn't ask for an

apology. The journalist did to get you to get a good headline, which obviously worked. But I was saying, you know, I don't want an apology. That's just for your own press to make it look like, you know, oh, we're so sorry about it. I was like, it's not actually doing anything for women. The whole reason I ever went to the police was to prevent it from happening to someone else. And I was saying, you know, if this happened again, tomorrow, I imagine the same situation would happen like nothing, nothing has changed. So I highlighted the fact that COVID restrictions had affected my case in that I was having to speak to different officers all the time because of close contacts and people not being in. So there was a lack of

continuity in my reporting in terms of who I was speaking to. And then there was that, there was obviously the digital element like you've highlighted all these different factors and the fact there was a previous ongoing case which wasn't like it wasn't really considered because he hadn't been sentenced for that yet. there was women who had come forward for that case where their own cases were never actually investigated so there was two women who were witnesses for the third victim who their own cases were never investigated and I know they felt very, very let down by the police

with their cases and yeah so so that was what you wanted was to try and help them and so this wouldn't happen again. What are you going to do? So initially they were talking about bringing in different people who review their policies and things like that. And they said they will absolutely review the case regardless, whether I want to be more involved or not. But at the bare minimum, they want me to come in and record just talking through

what happened so they can use for training purposes, which, yeah, that would be great, just to have something. It would be amazing if they review their policy and able to change it. My big sticking point is that I think it's really difficult to deal with these cases in a case-by-case basis because someone like this obviously knows how to manipulate the system. They've been here before. They've done it already. And there's got to be a way where you can look at the perpetrator without just singling it this way. It's a bit restrictive. One other aspect I just want to get to before I let you go as well. You also complained to Ulster University. You said you were a student there that he also became a student there. He were enrolled after meeting you. How do you

feel they handled it? Terribly. They were absolutely ridiculous. They, you know, the police they might have their reasons for it taking forever and they've eventually ultimately done what I needed them to do. He's in prison now. But yeah, the university have never done anything to support me in this. Whenever I went to them, they told me at a minimum, they've a zero tolerance policy for this.

At a minimum, he'll probably be removed from his accommodation. He'll likely be removed from his course. And in the end, that is not what happened. He ended up after the police had already disproved that evidence, he gave the same falsified evidence to the university. And they ended up investigating me the same way the police had after it had already been resolved, which I just could not, I could not comprehend. My actual course directors were agreeing, giving me extra leniency for, you know,

dealing with the arrest and getting my actual coursework in. But in terms of have they ever acknowledged that they did anything wrong or that, you know, they let this one slip, this man was already kicked out of university twice in Manchester. He went to Salford and he went to University of Manchester. And the girls that were there told me that, you know, he was banned from, any UK university and all of a sudden he rocks up an Ulster. So let me, there's a lack of, lack of character reference there. Yeah, and I don't have details on either of those universities,

but I can say that an Ulster University spokesperson said, our thoughts are with Jodie. Unfortunately, by law, we're unable to disclose any details of specific cases. However, in circumstances like this, we would always apply measures such as precautionary suspension, a ban from all premises and from contacting other Ulster University students. We work hard to create a safe, inclusive and respectful environment. Harassment and stalking are not tolerated.

We take seriously our safeguarding responsibilities and we're fully committed to treating all complaints sensitively and seriously. Yeah, they would say that. They did ban him from campus at a time when everything was online. So that was absolutely not useful to me at all. And just a slap on the wrist and allowed him to graduate at first. And then when all the papers came out about the case of Manchester, or he was described as a first-class student with all this potential

and it irked me to no end because he could have just not graduate. He could have just not been afforded that. Jody Morrow, thank you very much for sharing your story with us this morning. I can see messages coming in from others as well that have gone through stalking experiences. I do want to let people know if you've been affected by anything you've heard. Please do go to BBC Action Line online where there will be links.

to help and support. One of the messages, after my stalker's second arrest, the police told me the man was struggling to come to terms with the fact that he'd been arrested and it was his wish to pass me a letter through the police.

They wanted to check if this was okay with me. I said, no, the whole point of reporting him was to try to stop this unwanted contact. My life has forever changed from my stalker experiences. I am wishing your guest well. I want to move on to endometriosis. It's something we've often spoken about.

on the program. It's a chronic condition where tissue similar to the lining of the womb grows in other places such as the ovaries or fallopian tubes and it can cause debilitating pain. I want to give you some figures. We know it affects one in ten women. We know that the average time to get a diagnosis is nine years and four months. And trying to work through the pain that it brings to people really has its challenges. So there's an all party, our parliamentary groups on APPG on entomitriosis, launching an inquiry into looking into endometriosis in the workplace. I'm joined by the Labour MP Christine Sullivan,

who's chair of that group, and Bethann Allen from Sheffield, who has suffered from endometriosis for 10 years, also often shortened to endo, isn't it? Christine, good to have you with us. What do you want to find out? Thank you so much for having me on the programme this morning. I'm still reeling from what we've just heard, shocking. The inquiry, yeah.

So as you said, an average of one in 10 women in Britain are living with endometriosis, but around one and six of those women feel that they have to leave the workforce. And that's what they do. So we really need to get to the bottom of what's happening here. Part of the challenge for women in the workplace is that without a name condition, it can be very difficult for both employers and employees to ensure that the necessary support is in place to allow them to remain.

So we need to understand what is going on from both employee and employers' perspective. We are looking to hear from a whole range of people. Anyone involved in dealing with endometriosis in the workplace, we are inviting them to take part in the work. the inquiry. You know, there was an inquiry in 2020, however, and I pulled out some of the key recommendations that there was at that time, also in APPG. At that point, diagnosis time was eight years. Now we're up to nine years and four months, as I mentioned, at the top of the

program. I mean, it has gone up. Some of the recommendations were a commitment to drive down diagnosis times, into access to appropriate care, awareness, investment. And why not just take some of those key recommendations and work on getting them implemented instead of opening another inquiry? Well, as you said yourself at the start of this segment, the diagnosis waiting times have increased. So clearly things haven't improved. They've gotten worse. So I think it's important that we look at exactly what is going on right now. Now, we know there have been a few changes in the policy landscape as well and we're eagerly awaiting the refreshed women's health strategy

which should be published imminently the government has already signalled that it wants to move more care towards community settings which could be a huge help in getting women the care and treatment that they need but there have also been more calls to have more effective and continued education for clinicians throughout their career. But we need to make sure that that falls through into our schools and workplaces. Yeah, because I'm just thinking if you don't have a diagnosis, you can't get any action on any of these other aspects. So surely that is the crux.

That's the linchpin, you know, a woman in work for a decade before she's even able to tell her employer what the issue is. Yeah, and you're right. that is a huge problem but that women will be experiencing symptoms that she's having to love with and it's how what supports are required

for that women to deal and manage those symptoms whilst remaining in work that's what we need to get better at understanding. But I suppose people would come back to the recommendations were there six years ago and it's going in the wrong direction.

Bethann let me bring you in. You worked at a nursery for two years, a very busy environment. How did that feel? Tell me a little bit about when it comes to the workplace and suffering from endo. Yeah. So working in an nursery for two years was very exhausting just in the nature of, you know, looking after children being on my feet the whole time. That paired with being in pain every day was very exhausting. It did, yeah, it got to a point where I just thought I can't continue anymore. It was just relentless,

the pain and the stress of trying to sort of, you know, show up for these children when actually I was not even being able to take care of myself properly was really horrible. What do you think would work for you in the workplace?

I know you've changed jobs since then. You're able to sit down a little bit more, perhaps not have such a physical toll on your body on a day-to-day basis. What would you like to see? happen? Yeah, I think the main thing is just awareness. If employers are aware of the impacts of endometriosis on individuals, that sort of straight away opens up all of this support that women can access just by people knowing how much pain it can cause people, not just the

pain, the mental toll, the exhaustion as well that comes with it. that I think something that I would have found really helpful was maybe extra sick days for high pain days, sort of having a policy in place as soon as I told my employers that I'm struggling with endometriosis. So that there was support from the start rather than me crying out over and over, can you help me in this way would have been really helpful. But I suppose the diagnosis as well, you know, you can enter the workplace at 18, 19,

whatever it might be and wait years before you have that diagnosis to be able to even speak to your employer in that way. Christine, there's a campaign to get endometriosis covered by the Disability Act. Is that a way to address it? I think it's a really interesting point and one that we want to cover during the inquiry

is important to appreciate that endo is a spectrum condition, so not everyone experiences it in the same way. So some women will experience symptoms and have surgeries that cause them to be disabled, but other women can love without many symptoms. So I think what we're really keen to hear as part of the inquiry is the views of women, and also the views of employers as to how they can best support women. And how could they do that? Well, there's a variety of ways, but I think Bethan just touched on one of the most important issues,

and that's to make sure that there is a supportive environment. I mean in the sense if they want to add to the inquiry? Oh, yes, so there is going to be a survey that is going to be open to all, but will also be taking oral evidence from employers, from employees, particularly interested in hearing from occupational health therapists, people who work in HR, who can give an insight from the policy perspective. There will be a parliamentary launch of the inquiry in, I think it's 21st of April. So coming up very shortly.

Thank you both very much for speaking to us, the MP Christine Sullivan and Bethann Allen. endometriosis is of course something that affects so many women do get in touch if you would like to contribute to it. I do want to let you know that NHS England, we ask them about the delays in diagnosis. They acknowledge the problem. They sent this statement. The experiences of many women affected by endometriosis aren't good enough. We're determined to fix this by delivering more specialized women's health care in the community. And most local areas in England now have a women's health clinic providing care for menstrual problems and endometriosis.

so they can get quicker access to care. Now, let me see. Some more messages coming in. Here's one on endometriosis. I have it. I used to have to ensure I was the last person to leave the room at the end of long work meetings because despite my best efforts to prevent it,

I couldn't be sure that my trousers wouldn't be covered in blood. I have the bracket mutation, which is a genetic mutation. So I had my ovaries removed during my mid-30s as a preventative measure against ovarian cancer. And it was only immediately after the surgery that the surgeon told me I had endometriosis which explains an awful lot of the last

an awful lot. The last decades without periods has been heaven. So says my listeners 844-844. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now.

The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. I want to read another message that came in. These are for my next guests. Let me see. Oh, I think it's just disappeared. I will find it again. Top tip. Take

all the dates off your CV. Now, why are we talking about that? It says, well, you might be feeling at your peak at the age of 50, but maybe in the workplace you feel somewhat invisible, or do you feel you've been pushed out? My next two guests have been looking at this issue and also, which is very important, what you can do about it. There are more women than men that are not working in midlife.

That's according to government figures. So it's nearly a third of women age 50 to 64 compared to just over a fifth of men. Of course, we don't know what the choices are behind that, whether it's a choice or a decision, or in fact is that they can't find the work that they want. Eleanor Mills runs a website called Noon for Women in Midlife. Research carried out for the website

shows nearly half of women, age 45 to 60, feel invisible. Good morning, Eleanor. You're very visible to me this morning. Thanks, nice to be here. And we have Lucy Standing, a writer who thinks your 50s could be the most powerful decade of your working life. She argues this in a book. She's co-authored. It's out this month called Age Against the Machine, new rules for working in an ageist world. Good morning, Lucy. Morning. Thank you very much for having me.

Now, I read a column in the eye paper when I was just researching into women in midlife in work. And it said, employers often prefer cheaper, younger staff they can mould from scratch. Isn't pretending otherwise simply denial. What say you? I'd say rather than pretending, why not go out and start asking people? Because that's the sort of research that we do, and that's certainly my experience. As people get older, very, very many of them. It's learning something new, wanting to make a change, is third on their list of things that they're happy to do. And are they ready and are they willing to accept a pay cut in order to do that? Absolutely they are. So it's not the lived experience of very, very many of the people that I work with.

It's not the live experience that employers often prefer cheaper, younger staff? I think employers are just not experimenting. So I don't think they really know. You know, I can point to hundreds of graduate schemes and apprenticeship schemes targeted at younger people. How many schemes can you point at that say, hey, let's retrain all these people in their 40s and 50s and look at that data? And if they were to start doing some of that experiment, they would be blown away by how impressive. they would find this demographic. There are the returnerships, of course,

which the government has spoken about, right, particularly for women in midlife that they want to get back into the workforce. Eleanor, you've coined the term Queen Asia's. I love that word. What are we missing? Or what is that employer that perhaps thinks they prefer cheaper,

younger staff missing? Well, I think it's totally true that within the workplace, that what the column in the eye paper says is true. And our research shows very clearly that particularly gendered ageism, which is where ageism hits sexism, is a really big thing for women that can take women over 50, like twice as long to find a job. We found that from smart works who help women back into work.

And that 50% women are 50% more likely than men to report being patronised, ignored and dismissed at work. And we also see within our noon community a big kind of epidemic of what I call the whacking. What do you call it? The whacking, which is that when we hit kind of 50, it's amazing how quickly they get exited from their jobs. I mean, I was a very big editor on the Sunday Times for 23 years just before I turned 50. I got whacked and so did five other senior women at the same time.

And across the media. And of course I don't have the Sunday Times to talk about their reasons for that. But you're talking about it from a person experience. Yeah, but I'm also talking about it as a systemic thing across corporate. life that once women hit about 50, they're seen as being rather less pleasing, both in terms of kind of being more, being like maybe physically pleasing, but also a bit more balshy and more likely to speak back because you've got 30 years of experience. Not going to be as compliant perhaps.

Not as compliant, not as pleasing, which is very much what the corporate world has always wanted from women. But of course there is always, you know, from diversity, be it off opinion, etc. You can create a better workplace. Lucy, you talk about it being a critical moment for midlife workers. How do you think they can ensure their value is recognised? I love some of the tips that you have in the book. Good. Well, hopefully that encourages a few more people to read it as well.

So thank you. I mean, I think the main thing that people need to do is to take control and be proactive in this scenario. I don't think anyone is ready to advocate on anyone else's behalf, certainly in terms of their age. So unless we recognise it and understand it and understand the value that it brings, that's for us to articulate. I don't expect other people to go looking for that. Can I throw out the first one except change? So we have to be more flexible or adaptable. But what about this one?

Swallow your ego. Oh, yeah. That's a great one. I'd say I can help most people, but there's about 38% of people I can't. 38. That's very specifically, Lucy. That's actually approximate and entirely anecdotal. So that's based on my experience.

So, you know, we support about sort of two to 300 people a year. And yeah, the ones who come to me saying things like, I've been a senior partner for the last 10, 15 years, I've got all these qualifications and approach it with an attitude of, I would describe it as entitlement. I deserve this. I should be getting this. And I turn around and I think, well, the job market isn't going to support that.

It's really difficult to why is that going to make me want to pay you that particular salary? The thing that's going to make me pay is when somebody recognises my problem. Evidence is how they're going to help me solve it. Brings value to the door, whether that's clients, whether that's new pipeline of business, whether it's new customer acquisition, I don't know. But unless you're actually proving that worth, it's very hard to make those demands. Eleanor, you wanted to jump in. Yeah, I think it's really important to say here.

There's a brilliant piece of research from Lucy Ryan, who's written a book called The Revolt, which is about why women leave their jobs in their 50s and 60s. She finds that 70% of women at this point want to power. up their career. And we're not going to get our pensions till we're 67. So in terms of women living longer and having a pension pay gap of 30%, it's really important that women go on working in their 50s if we're not going to have a real kind of economic problem. There is a real problem with the way that companies look at women's careers. They're not looking at us at 50 and going, this is a woman on the verge of her best decade ever. And they should be because actually a third of

the workforce now is now over 50 and that's only going to get bigger. We're living in a aging society, a longevity society. I called my company noon because in the hundred year life, 50 is only halfway through. It's lunchtime. I see so many women moving into absolutely their best act, but I do think that whatever you've been doing between about 25 and 50, that kind of circle comes to an end. But rather than seeing that as the end of our lives, we need to see that as the beginning of the next circle, like a figure of eight. So in some ways, I'm really with Lucy that I think we need to be swallowing our ego, re-skilling, getting ourselves out there. But there is a real gendered ageism problem in the culture where women are not seen as dynamic forces at 50 plus in the way that we should be.

But I want to go back to another of Lucy's tips, which was don't get too hung up on gendered ageism. Let me tell us what this is, Lucy. Do the so what test? In terms of answering somebody else, so if somebody's looking at me and I've got a load of things on my CV, strong communicator, able to manage a large team, the question that the person reading that wants to have answered is, so what? So you're a good communicator. So you've managed a large team. What is that actually going to do for me? So things along the lines of, I can take your most difficult employee and I can turn them into your best performer. or I can communicate any message to whatever audience you're wanting

and I guarantee a 20% uplift. And if I don't, put me on probation. It's that sort of qualification that I think makes people, makes this demographic who people do see as a risk for all the sorts of systemic problems that there are. We deal with the world as it is, not the way we want it to be. So we acknowledge that. And then we think, right, how do we proactively address

the kind of problems likely to be presented and come up? And I think you open the door to that, open the door to dialogue. Let me read this message. Quite a few coming in. I've been looking for a job for 18 months. I'm 60. I have a master's highest level of HR qualifications, 25 years experience. You can't take dates off CVs because most employers have HR systems that you're forced to use to apply for jobs with dates as required fields. Lying would be deception and disqualifying your application. My CV is usually dismissed by AI with no human ever seeing it. Eleanor. Yeah, that is really true. We run a jobs board at

noon which tries to help women into jobs because they're hitting such problems with the AI. And we hear so many stories of women sending off hundreds, thousands of applications and not getting through. But what's interesting is there are some specialist recruiters who, say, for instance, get women back into law. And they often find that women who have been knocked out by the AI algorithm are then actually get jobs with the law firms. So there's a systemic problem here that sometimes the dates of your CV can make mean that you're excluded for something which actually you'd be brilliant for. And I think there's a, we really need a rethink within our culture about what women particularly are for, 50 plus. And we need to see that this is

actually a real opportunity. For many of us, we've done our child raising or a lot of our kind of caring responsibilities by the time we hit 50. And we've actually got the space and I see so many women going, you know, if not now, when. I've always wanted to do this thing. I can do it at 50. got the health span and we're all going to live a lot longer. But companies need to rethink how they perceive us. That actually we've probably got another 15, 20 years of really good work. So this is, Ellen, I think you're saying to the employer rethink your hiring practices when using AI as opposed to a way to beat the AI? I think that all recruiters and particularly recruiters within companies need to think really clearly about that statistic that a third

of the workforce is over 50. So they're also missing out on some excellent talent. if they aren't looking at this demographic. And also, when it comes to AI, everyone's very frightened about jobs and AI. But there's quite a lot of evidence now which shows that AI actually needs older workers. The hallucination within the AI requires somebody to look at it who knows that 95% of it is great, but 5% is really wrong. And that kind of experience and wisdom, that kind of inner knowledge is in the older worker. And I think that we have judgment that, and we've been around the block.

We've seen a lot of things before, which is really helpful and much better consumer awareness. And if you think that actually 92% of all household consumer spending decisions are being made by women, 50 plus, they're a really important demographic to be selling to. Being 50, says another, and working, I've never felt more powerful or wise. This is the change that my mother's generation was talking about.

I don't think it was physical, but a spiritual change of perspective on life. So somebody very happy in the workplace there. Lucy, for someone who's listening now feeling maybe stuck or rejected, what would you give them as the first practical steps to take this morning? I would say listen to what Eleanor has said to a large extent, which is people can be applying for hundreds, thousands of jobs. So I'd say, stop.

Recruitment is broken for people over 50. So why keep banging your head against a brick wall that isn't willing to listen? We know there are systemic problems. but in my experience, the more that you shout at companies and say things like, be more open-minded to people over 50, they just go, so what, so what? What's the business case? Where's the commercial case? So I think it's a more helpful perspective to sort of say to the individual,

actually, you're going to have to figure this out for yourself. And the way that I would encourage people to do that is a number of different things. The first thing first is be really clear on the kind of role and the sort of organization you want to work for because that drives all of the action you're going to be taking. If you're not clear, you are going to be applying to 300 different roles, lots of organizations you'll be getting rejected from all of them. And I guarantee that's going to be doing an ab that's going to annihilate your mental health. Constant goathing and rejections, hideous.

So two, get clear. The way that you get clear is through actions. So if I look at all of the people that we look at within our community, everyone finds the work and they're sort of the place that they're happy in because of the experiments, the shadowing, the work experience, proof projects that they're offering. So that means go to organisations that you like the look of, ask to do job shadowing, pay for it if you have to. Yeah, I know that sounds quite controversial. Offer up free work experience because our demographic, we prove ourselves in the relationships.

We don't prove ourselves by the CV that we know is going to get rejected. So serve somebody. Think of who you can help. Who are the beneficiaries? Who do you actually want to spend some time? If there's a startup out there you really like the look of, you can power that startup up and you can think about ways that you can negotiate

earning something from the value that you are going to generate because I know you're going to generate it. I would say... And I think obviously doing free work experience or shadowing or paying for it, obviously if you're in a good financial position, which won't be everybody. One more tip and then I have to let you go. Target organisation is likely to want you.

You know, the reality is getting a job as a social media manager for a student, nightclub is probably not going to be your way. I throw that challenge out to my listeners. I've a feeling somebody will be able to do it. Lucy Standing, her book is called Age Against the Machine, new rules for working in an ageist world, and Eleanor Mills runs the website noon.

Really interesting. Thank you both. Now, I want to turn to a most unusual story, how a chance meeting on the London Underground led to a woman donating her eggs to a stranger. You'll know most people don't talk to fellow commuters on the tube, but Guinea, Bogle, is different. And this encounter resulted in a baby boy called Christopher many years ago. Back in the 90s, this took place, and the two women kept in touch.

But it wasn't until almost four years ago that Christopher learned how he was conceived. Guinea decided to tell her story on social media. The response has been overwhelming. Guinea is in studio with me now. Good morning. Good to have you with us. We also have Christopher on the line from Miami. Hi, Christopher.

Hi. Thank you for getting... Thank you for getting up so early for us as well. Now, let me start with you, Guinea. You posted this story on your social media. Why did you decide to do it after all these years? I just, yeah, I think I had a little pressure from family as well. Like my younger nephews were like, you'd really need to share this because it's a unique story.

And it is a unique story. And I honestly did not realize that it was going to be. It was going to be crazy. Yeah. When, yeah. And what are you hearing from people? What did they respond? So I'm getting a lot of women telling me their stories of how they have gone through a similar route.

Of egg donation. Egg donation, surrogacy and, you know, various different ways of conceiving. And they, I think they feel that my story has given them a voice in a way that they can express or even see how the few, you know, how their family would react to having a child through this, you know, this way. You are a South Asian woman as well, which it can be perhaps more taboo, you said, to speak about these things. It is. It is taboo in our culture to speak about these things. But so I think the fact that my parents accepted Chris so beautifully and the whole family

came together that I think that gave a lot of people a bit of hope that if ever in the future they had to tell their families, it would be, you know, it'd be welcomed a bit more easier because my story would be an example. And I do want to let people know that we did approach Anita. She didn't want to take part today, but she is happy for us to have this conversation. Anita is Christopher's mum. Let's go back to that tube journey. I mean, generally you're just trying to stay away from people, keep out of their armpits or whatever else it might be on rush hour.

What happened? How come a conversation started? Just we were there on the tube. There was a child playing in front of us. us sitting on the seats and we were like, you know, along as we kind of, as the journey went on, we got moved up a little bit together and then Anita asked me if I'd had, if I had any children at the time. And I had my son already who was only three. And I told her that. You were mid-20s at this stage. I was mid-20s, yeah. So I told her I had a son of three

years old and she's, and then I kind of asked her the same question, do you have any children? And she said, no, I can't have any children. And then she sort of said, The only way I can have a child is if someone donated, a younger woman donated eggs. And this was something I'd never heard of. I didn't even know it. Yeah, this is the 90s, right? Yeah. So I was like, oh my God, I'd love to help someone like this.

And then she was like, oh, would you? That was it. I wonder was anybody eavesdropping that conversation and realizing this momentous thing that happened. But you didn't know her at all and she didn't know you? No, not at all. But you got to know each other? Yes. over the course of treatment

and everything yeah and over the years payment for eggs and sperm is not permitted in the UK egg donors can receive compensation but you didn't receive any payment no no so thanks to your donation

Anita had a baby baby Christopher now a fully grown man and you saw him I believe not long after he was born yes then literally that day I think or the next day I think I went and how did you feel I was overwhelmed and I felt like

I wanted to put a little bow on him and hand him over like a little present As a gift you didn't feel Yeah I didn't feel That longing or yearning or anything No I was actually very happy to do this for someone And and you know And he even looked a bit like me

While he was lying in his little cot at the time And I was like a bit overwhelmed by the whole thing But I was happy to give that joy to Anita. And just before I head over to Christopher, you had a husband and a son at that time. I mean, what did he think? Because you've talked about it being under-discussed

in your community. He was at first, no, you're not doing this. Why are you? Why do you have to do? Why can't someone else do it? But I persuaded him and I think I kind of dug my heels in and said that, no, I'm sorry, but I'm going to help this person

because this is my one thing to do in life if I don't get to do anything like this ever again. This is something I want to do now. And my understanding is after meeting the baby, you continue to stay in touch with Anita and became anti-Ginney. Yes. To Christopher, let's turn over to Christopher.

So you would see Guinea every few years, but you didn't know the connection. You've only found out really in the past few years. I wonder how you feel knowing your origins. Oh, it's such a crazy story. It was an amazing blessing. to find this out. I was told at 26, and when my family told me, they're like, you've met this person in your life.

We want you to guess who it was. And so I guess Guinea correctly. But yeah, we've met throughout the years. There's another really interesting encounter when I was three, I believe, where Guinea and my mother went to a park and Guinea brought her daughter. And I was running around the park for 30 minutes. And then after 30 minutes, I go up to Guinea and I ask her, are you my mother? And so I believe that story, when she told me, it haunted her after that.

So it's quite amazing. Let me pop back to Guinea on that one. Do you remember that point? Yeah, it was spooky. It was really spooky when he says, are you her mom? Like that. And I was like, no, your mom's over there. So there obviously was something percolating when you were.

a little boy in the sense of definitely feeling comfortable, I imagine, with Guinea. But to find out, you know, that it was a conversation on the tube, I suppose this act of kindness from a total stranger who now is obviously not a stranger. I've heard it described as a bonus family. How do you feel about it, Christopher? Because you've been brought into Guinea's large family, I think it appears to be from what I've read thus far. Yeah, I feel like my entire family is really good. greatly expanded. I went from having the family I always thought I had to now a whole different

family and, you know, within the Indian culture, they typically repopulate a lot. So it's a massive family. And did you, I mean, getting he been around Christopher when he was a little boy, did you want him to know that you were the donor? Yeah, I did have feelings at certain points when I to see him. I wonder how he would be if he knew or, but I'm glad they told Christopher when they did more kind of later on in life. Why? I think it just, I really don't know why, but I think at the time it was like, it was just nice to know that he was there. This child is experiencing something that I would never be able to experience. But to be told later on was, because I was always under the impression that he would never be told.

So I thought maybe they might not say anything to hear me, might not learn that this is the truth. But I'm kind of glad that it did happen when it did. Because some of those conversations have changed, it's become more common in a way, for example. But Christopher, how do you introduce Guinea to people now? I'm just wondering how those dynamics are. Well, I would say I have two moms now.

that's kind of the way it flows there and guinea is just she's incredible there's so many similarities there's like one of the interesting aspects of when i flew to london and we went on the trip to santa rini together is that i got to get to know her and we had so many similarities from like music my favorite artist is Sadeh, Shadeh. And that's the same artist she loves. We drink black coffee, like coffee the same way. We dress similarly, always wearing white or black. I can attest to that looking at both of you right now. But I'm wondering with Anita, I mean, was that a difficult conversation to have with your mom, Anita, in the sense of strengthening that bond with Guinea, Christopher?

Well, yeah, it was actually the reason why my family told me about Guinea was because of the, it was actually, I think, a silver lining of the COVID-19 pandemic. They wanted me to know my sort of medical history, if anything happened during the pandemic. And so that was why they told me. That was their intention. That's so interesting. So you've been to London, obviously, as well. And I mean, I'm sure you've been on the tube before.

I mean that's going to be kind of an environment that holds I suppose a special place for you. Oh yeah 100%. It's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing to be down there and realize like this is where it started. I was looking back in figures in the 1990s there was like almost three million tube journeys every day.

So the thought of these two strangers just sitting beside each other that has created Christopher. And from here, I mean, this story. I'm just thinking about the response you've had to it. Do you think it will change things? Going forward? Yeah, I mean, in the sense of that you've opened this conversation for some people.

I hope it does. I really truly hope it gives people confidence to tell their families and be able to and families accepting children that have come through like Christopher and that was

the overwhelming thing. I didn't expect people to respond. in the way they did. But I'm so glad I did share the story when I did and I'm so glad that people have picked up and felt the same way and felt like this has given me hope. This has given me light to see

how it pans out with my child in the future. Gini Bogle, thank you very much for coming in studio. Also Christopher, thank you so much for getting up early in Miami this morning to join us here on Women's Hour. And thanks very much to you for joining me. One more, Women's

Hour, Working over 50. It's hard to retrain. in a practical subject as companies don't want apprentices over the age of 21 as they have to pay higher minimum wage. Keep your stories coming. We'll see you tomorrow. That's all for today's Women's Hour.

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