Woman's Hour - Artemis II, Meg Jones, 'Battlefield techniques abuse'

Episode Date: April 2, 2026

Nasa's Artemis II spacecraft has blasted off from the Kennedy Space Centre in Florida and is now orbiting the Earth in the first crewed mission to the Moon in half a century. If all goes well in the next few hours, it will head off to go around the Moon. The mission should take 10 days, with four astronauts on board including one woman. Anita Rani speaks to Sian Cleaver, a spacecraft engineer on Artemis II.The Women’s Six Nations is just around the corner and after last year’s Rugby World Cup win, the expectations for England’s Red Roses are sky high. Over 70,000 tickets have already been sold for the women's opening game against Ireland on Saturday 11 April, and the team have announced a new captain, Meg Jones. There’s also the release of a new documentary England Meet England on ITV. So, is the team feeling the pressure? Red Roses' new captain Meg Jones joins Anita.The Ministry of Defence has been accused of failing women who are suffering domestic abuse at the hands of their partners in the forces. A dossier of cases has been compiled by the Survivor Family Network, which supports domestic abuse victims in the family courts. Their investigation alleges that battlefield techniques are being used to inflict violence on wives and girlfriends. And when they try to report it, they say the military closes ranks. Anita talks to the director of the Survivor Family Network, Natalie Page.Former lawyer turned author Ella King’s new novel, Dear Darling is the story of Lauren, a young teenage girl who has a relationship with a much older man. When she’s an adult and a mother herself, he comes back into her life and Lauren decides to confront him and the harm that he did to her. Ella joins Anita to discuss the novel and how her former work with victims of abuse and domestic violence have informed her research.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower.

Well, we've got six new episodes for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Woman's Hour with Anita Rani. Good morning. We have lift-off. Three, two, one, booster ignition. And lift-off.

The crew of Artemis II now bound for the moon. Humanity's next great voyage begins. This is the moment. Artemis II blasted off last night. It's the first crude mission to the moon in half a century. 10-day mission, the plan to circle the moon, and they could travel further from Earth than anyone has ever been before. We'll be speaking to one of the spacecraft engineers who happens to be a woman from Chelmsford. Also, ahead of the Six Nations, the England women's rugby team has a new captain.

Meg Jones will be joining me. Also, Ella King's new novel, Dear Darling. It follows the story of Lauren Tan as she confronts her stepfather, mentor and abuser who she fell in love with at just 14 years old. Three extraordinary women who have achieved their dreams. But how about you? Thinking about your own lives and what you wanted to do or be when you were younger, did you make it?

Did the dream come true? Even if it's dream adjacent. What is it that you're doing and what did it take to get there? Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email us by going to our website or you can WhatsApp the program. It's 0300. 100444. And if you'd like to follow us on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. That text number once again, though, tell me if your dreams came true. 84844. But first, NASA's Artemis II spacecraft has blasted off from the Kennedy Space Center in Florida and is now orbiting the Earth in the first crude mission to the moon in half a century. If all goes well in the next few hours, it'll head off to go around the moon. The mission should take 10 days with four astronauts.

on board, including one woman. They won't land on the moon, but will carry out research with the goal of returning humans to the moon, prepare for Mars and shape the future of space exploration. Have you found it inspiring? Well, Sean Cleaver joins me. She is a spacecraft engineer on Artemis 2. Sean, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi, good morning.

Good morning. What time is it where you are in Florida? It has just gone 5 o'clock in the morning, so I'm very sleepy. And I suppose you've had the sort of excitement and the adrenaline, but how are you feeling right now? Before we get into exactly what your job was, how are you feeling? What's the atmosphere like? I'm just still in awe of it, you know?

It was just absolutely incredible. I got home last night and I viewed it from a different location to my friends and family. And we were just sat in our Airbnb just chatting about, you know, the highlights and just how we felt. And we were just all just in utter amazement. It was just an incredible show last. Mike. So much that I want to know. What were the highlights for you? Well, I mean, that launch, it's just so incredible that we launched on the first attempt. And maybe it doesn't hit home unless

you're in the space industry, but that's really quite rare, especially when you're talking about a human space flight mission. I mean, there are so many things that can be, you know, even slightly anomalous and that will pause the mission or, you know, or cause a scrub on the mission. But that just didn't happen. Everything sort of lined up. Everything went really well and it was just a fantastic show. It really was. Congratulations. So tell me about your job. What's your involvement specifically on Artemis 2? Yeah, so I work for Airbus. A lot of people don't realize that Airbus actually makes a lot of space stuff. And I used to work at Airbus in the UK, but in about 2019, I moved over to Airbus in Germany and that's where they are building what's called the

European service module. So it actually makes up half of the Orion spacecraft. So the astronauts are sitting in the crew module on the top of the Orion spacecraft. The bit behind them is our bit. We built that service module and that service module contains everything that the astronauts need to keep them alive on their journey to the moon and back. So we've got big tanks of water in there. We've got big tanks of oxygen and nitrogen that we mix together to make the air. We have the solar arrays that generate all the electricity. We've got thermal control. We've got control systems and then I guess most importantly we've got that big engine that actually provides the push that takes the astronauts to the moon and back again so it's a really critical piece of the mission

and yeah I'm just so proud that I'm part of the team that helped to build it um lots of last minute preparations before launching I mean there always are we've been working on this this for me um was called ESM so European service module number two we've been working on this for years and the work doesn't stop, right? We deliver our spacecraft to our friends at Kennedy Space Center. We did that years ago now. And since then the spacecraft has been in constant testing, you know, amalgamation with other parts of the spacecraft. And then our teams would have been working right up until launch. And I'm still working now. They're following the mission. We've got teams in Houston and also at HESTech in the Netherlands. And they will be, yeah, following the mission very closely until those actuals

brush down safety again. How many years, Sean? Oh, it depends what you want to start from. From development, I think you're probably talking about 15 years or so for the whole mission, and for the, I mean, for the European Service module to be developed. But after us, too, that second European service module, a good number of years, let's put it that way. It's not a quick thing to build. Oh, exactly, which, I mean, it's exciting for all of us to have watched it, but for all of you, especially as it's years of your life that have gone into that one moment, mission. So what's happening now? Where is it? What's going on? So I've just had a little look. The astronauts are now having a shape, nap. So they've got a four-hour nap period. Then they will be

woken up in a couple of hours' time to do another burn of the engine. It's a perigee-rays burn that they will be doing just to lift the orbit. They're still around the Earth at the moment. And then I believe later on today, they will do that trans-luner injection burn. And that is the burn that and actually take them away from the Earth's orbit and on a free return trajectory to the moon and back. So that's the point at which they're off to the moon. And the only way to get back again is to go around the moon and be slung-shorted around the moon and back to work again. So, yeah, that's where they are at the moment. And is that when your part comes into use?

So our team has already fired up, if you will. So the first big milestone for us was when the solar arrays deployed. that happened about 15 minutes after the mission started. And then there have been a number of burns of our engine. So we're already well underway with our mission. Trying to imagine them napping up there. What if you're too excited to sleep? Well, I know.

I think I would be. I mean, we were saying this yesterday. We're utterly exhausted, right? There's been so much going on here and so much excitement. And then I was thinking, gosh, if I was one of those astronauts, I don't think I'd sleep at all. No, me neither. I think that's why it's called nap period and not asleep.

So maybe they're just sort of resting quietly. Tell me more about the team involved. How many people and crucially, how many women? Well, on our side, I think in Airbus in Brennan, which is where we sort of do all of the work, I think there's around about 150 of us. The exact number of women, oh, I'm not really sure, but it's not many.

I would say probably around 10%, which tends to be the statistic in engineering, unfortunately. But I certainly noticed it, I mean, there's just not that many. And there's not many who are sort of above me. You know, there's not really many people that I can look up to and be inspired by. And that's a real shame. And I'm starting to realize that now that I'm sort of more mid-career, you know.

Sometimes I think, gosh, where are the women? And maybe I'm it for inspiring other people, you know, and I do feel the weight of that responsibility sometimes. Well, where are they? I don't know. And I don't, I know that it varies, depending on where you are in the world, I mean, I saw quite a few more women in the UK when I was working there than I do now in Germany. And then again, when I look at our American colleagues, I do see a lot more women there.

So I have hope they are there. They're just not maybe evenly distributed. And I really hope about changes over the course of my career. Well, it's Easter holidays. So you never know there might be lots of future engineers out there listening at home with their parents. Let's find out how you got into it because we are talking about people and their dreams coming true. And this really, what is your dream come true, isn't it? Oh, absolutely.

I mean, for as long as I can remember, I've wanted to be in the space industry, or I wanted to be an astronaut, quite frankly. And talking to my parents, I think that that came from a trip to Kennedy Space Center when I was about four or five years old. And we don't know exactly when, but I think that's when my interest was sparked,

which is really special because I've managed to bring my parents back here to witness this launch. So I really think it's a bit of a full circle. moment for me and my family really. It really is, yeah, sometimes I really have to pinch myself. I'm like, wow, how cool is it that I can now

bring my parents back and I've got a badge around my neck that says that I work as part of the team, you know? It's poetic. It's beautiful. Yeah, that is really poetic. And you even met your partner because of the job as well. You're officially a space couple. Exactly. We met at the launch of Artemis 1.

And so I was out here to view the launch. And then And some of my colleagues introduced me to my now partner. And he was working on the NASA side on the same mission. So it very much is our life. You should see our house. We've got space posters all over the place. And we actually have a little space room where we keep all of our memorabilia and things

like that. It's super nerdy. But you've got to love it. I'm into it. I love it. You've painted the picture. I wouldn't expect anything less from a space couple. So you were five when you went off and went to the Kennedy Space Center.

It ignited your imagination and you wanted to be an astronaut. And then you, do you think it was significant? I know this about you, that you went to an old girl school. Yeah, absolutely. And looking at that now, now that I'm sort of in my mid-30s, I really think that that helped because for me, it was just completely normal that women were doing physics, chemistry and biology, of course. You know, I didn't know any different.

And so it was completely normal that I would then go on to study physics at university, which is what I did. I went to Durham University. I did physics and astronomy. And okay, yes, there were fewer women there. It certainly wasn't 50-50 by any stretch of the imagination, but it wasn't too noticeable. It was only really when I sort of entered the workforce.

So I started on the Airbus graduates team actually in the UK. And then I started to look around and think, hang on, where are all the women? It's a real shame. I don't know where they are. Like, why are more people not interested in this? It's so cool. It's so interesting.

and there are so many different types of engineer that you can be if you're working in the space industry. And yeah, I just wish there were more of us. I just wonder, you know, it's a conversation we have a lot here, obviously, but about, you know, is it about girls wanting to get into STEM or is it something once you're in the workplace, the systems that allow us to kind of progress? Yeah, I think it's a bit of both.

I really think engineering gets maybe a bad rap, really. It doesn't really, it's not really very descriptive. An engineer is such a broad, turn that maybe it's quite hard to grasp exactly what an engineer does. I mean, certainly for me, I didn't study engineering, of course, so physics was more familiar to me. So it could be an element of that. But I think it's just such a shame because, I mean, space is so captivating. It's very gender neutral, isn't it, space? Space and dinosaurs is what all young children are really into. And I really don't know at what stage it is that that sort of drops off. What's the purpose of this mission?

So this mission is part of a whole scheme of missions of the Artemis program where we're going back to the moon, but a little bit differently to how we went for Apollo. So the Apollo missions were all about going just for a few days, doing some scientific experiments and coming home again. The Artemis missions is all about building up a sustainable human presence on the lunar surface. So the astronauts are going to learn more about, you know, the demands on the human body of being in deep space. and also learn about how to keep us alive on another planetary body. So Artemis 3 will be another sort of test mission to try out technologies. It won't actually go to the moon. It will do that near the Earth.

But Artem's 4 is when we will land astronauts on the moon. And we'll test out all the technologies needed to do that. And then from there with future Artemis missions, we'll be building up a lunar base on the moon, and really sort of learning how to live and work on another planetary body with the view, of course, to going to Mars in the future. And I think that that's getting a lot closer now. We're certainly a little bit closer today than we were yesterday. Oh, exciting.

And what happens now? So they're up, they're out there. Now what happens for the next sort of 10 days? What will you be doing? Well, for me, personally, I'm just going to be watching and enjoying every step of the mission. But I have got members of my team who are at Houston and also at Mission Control in Europe, sort of monitoring the mission,

and we will be getting hopefully some of the behind-the-scenes updates from them. Ultimately, we're just hoping that everything goes to plan, that everything's kind of boring in a way, and we want all of the procedures to run exactly as they should be, and we want all the data to be looking just as it should be. So that will be a success for us if we can splash down in the ocean with those four astronauts, having no major anomalies, as we call them in the business. But for me, yeah, I'm going to be just watching every step of the way.

It's going to be a four-day journey to the moon and then back again. So, yeah, we'll be tuning in every step of the way. You can actually listen to it all. There's a live stream so you can hear all the communications from the astronauts between them and mission control. It's all on YouTube. So, yeah, it's a really fun mission to follow along with. That's good.

That's good to know for all of us space nerds. And you just described it as being a bit boring. most exciting, boring ever? Well, not boring for me. I think it's hugely exciting, but you know what I mean? I mean, I mean, I mean, how arranging is want a quiet time. Put it that way. But of course, everybody's got a huge smile on their face.

Don't get me wrong. Absolutely, and so you should. And you can enjoy the rest of it. With your parents in Florida, having that pinch me moment that your life has come full circle. Thank you so much for joining us so early in the morning to fill us in Sean Cleaver. Thank you.

Thank you. I'm off back to bed now. Just like the astronauts. Go on then. Have a good rest. You deserve it. Have you not. 8444.

Lots for you getting in touch with your own dreams. As a teenager, I always dreamed of being a pilot but was told by the Air Force and the national airline that I couldn't because of being a girl and needing glasses. At uni, I discovered that was not true. And now I'm approaching retirement after a long and successful career as an airline captain still enjoying living my dream. Sarah, thank you for that. 84844. Now the women's Six Nations is just around the corner and there's real momentum building around England's rugby team, the Red Roses. From the release of a new documentary, England meet England on ITV, to the announcement of a new captain in Meg Jones. Over 70,000 tickets have already sold for their opening game against Ireland on Saturday, April the 11th. The Red Roses sold out Twickenham for their World Cup final win last September. So expectations are high for this tournament and with the game. That comes pressure. To hear how the team are handling it all, we're joined.

I'm delighted to say by their new captain Meg Jones at Pennyhill Park, the Rugby Training Centre for England. Meg, welcome to Women's Hour. Hello, how are we doing you? I'm great. How are you? Congratulations. Captain, how are you feeling? Yeah, all good, not too bad.

Yeah, just in the mix of the other moments. So, yeah, we're in full prep mode for the Six Nations. But it's going good. Sun is shining, so we're feeling good. Yeah, good. Tell me more about the prep. What's going on? So yeah, we're at Penny Hill, and to be honest, we've got obviously seven new uncap players, still 25 of us from the last World Cup.

And yeah, we're just getting stuck back into the next campaign. I think sport is one of those things where you win something and then you think about the next thing straight away. So, yeah, we're still on a buzz probably from the World Cup. But yeah, we've got our next campaign now and looking to win the next one. Well, we will look to the future, but we are going to, let's take a moment to think about the World Cup. was the last time we spoke to you. You came on the programme. I think the day after after that incredible win, sold out

at Twickenham. The stakes were so high for England. I know you're laughing because you'd lost your voice because you were having a voice. My voice sounded like Mickey Mouse, let's be honest. It was horrendous. But you know what? We enjoyed knowing that you had celebrated quite rightly. So the stakes were so

high for England because you'd been undefeated for so many games but you hadn't managed to win a final since 2014 what difference did that historic win make for the team? Could you feel a difference afterwards? Yeah, it was huge. I mean, even just the 82,000 at Allianz was just remarkable.

But like you said, we hadn't won for 11 years, and that was kind of the challenge at hand. We'd always got to a World Cup, and we'd lost the final at the last hurdle. And there was something missing, and we put a lot of emphasis on our culture in the last four years since John Mitchell, our head coach, had been in. So yeah, that was huge for us.

And just that sense of belonging, which we all love as humans and we want to be part of. So, yeah, that was really crucial for us. And then coming off with a win is just, yeah, it's been life-changing for most of us, but hopefully pushing us in the right direction with women's sport in general, off the back of the lionesses as well.

But yeah, just putting us on the map, which is first and foremost, because, yeah, when people hear about it, they think, oh, wow, you can be a women's rugby player and be full-time. Absolutely. Can I just pick up on what you just said, that, you know, people might think that you went back and you focused, you know, on the gameplay, which I'm sure you did, and the training was hard because obviously you've got to be brilliant to win. But you said you focused on changing the culture in the last four years. What do you mean? Yeah, so it was just, obviously, the winning was the winning. I think that's the easy bit is around the performance side of things. You know, you've always got a natural competitive desire to want to win. So that's always going to be there. I think the bit we probably wanted to delve deeper into

was just around like how one we felt belonging, we felt safe in the environment, we wanted to push the boundaries as much as we could, but we had to have the culture to look out for each other for that. And that was really important for us. So in order for us to do that, we had to have the backing of the coach, but we also had to have our mindset on the performance,

which was winning the World Cup. Yeah, I suppose once you figured out the culture and everyone feels safe, the word you just used, then you can flourish, can you? You can just focus on what you need to do. Yeah, 100%. You stepped in as captain with Zoe Stratford announcing her pregnancy. Was that a shock?

Well, the pregnancy is probably not so. It's kind of natural after four years, after a cycle that you get natural pregnancies or people retiring. We obviously had three pregnancies within the group with Lark and Abbey Ward as well. Absolutely. So yeah, it was, you never expect to be captain. I'd been vice captain and we'd been in the leadership groups with the girls anyway, so I kind of knew how it all flowed.

So yeah, I was very much in it and I knew what the job was at hand. But yeah, I think it's more nervous than anything really because, yeah, you carry a lot of expectation on you and you carry the weight of the team. But I got an amazing group around me. We're a well experienced group and yeah, we're fully immersed in the challenge ahead. So what's your leadership style?

And how do you deal with the nerves? I think I'm just, I'm quite lead by example. I practice what I preach quite a lot. I've got high integrity and I'm also, I also like having fun and yeah, having a good time, which I think is the main thing. So yeah, hopefully you can see a little bit of that as well. We've got a documentary out as well.

well that's coming live on 9th of April actually on Thursday on ITV so yeah it was co-created by O2 our amazing partner and hopefully you can see a little bit of those leadership qualities from myself but also around with the with the players as well and there's so many different personalities which I think you'll touch up on yeah yeah I mean we you know and also just as women and the sport that you're in what you represent not just on kind of getting to the top of your game but also just being strong in your bodies you know yeah I think that's one of the bits I love about rugby is for every body shape, every shape and size. And it celebrates those as well.

So, yeah, again, you'll see that in the documentary. I think Sarah Burns is a huge advocate for female body image and she speaks about that heavily. But it's so crucial because there's such different body shapes that have different roles and they are celebrated massively within the game. You know, we've got powerful girls, fast girls, small girls, you know, I'm only five foot four, but I punch well above my weight. I always say it's the fight of the dog, not the size of the dog. So, yeah, you'll see that massively within our group and it's someone we celebrate huge.

Yeah, and you are extraordinary. Because last year you had a lot of highs and you being a standout player and victorious in the World Cup, but also you had a really difficult year as well because late, you lost both your dad and then your mum. So looking back, how did you... manage your grief at such a high point in your career when you've got two huge things happening all at once yeah I think you you never know the cards you're gonna have to play and all you've been

dealt so I think yeah that was just 24 came came fast and it came with a lot of a lot of a lot of punches so I had to roll with but the thing that remained constant has always remained constant in my life is rugby and it's something I've always felt back on it's given me so much love compassion empathy, all those things that I think are really valuable for us as humans. But it was something my dad and my mum both enjoyed me getting involved in. And I just felt then it was a time for me to represent them at a high level and carry more than just myself at that point. And I felt like I did.

I felt like I did them proud. I did everything I possibly could to make sure they had an amazing view and an amazing show to watch as well. and they definitely had the best seats in the house watching a World Cup at that point but yeah, it was more than just me at that point it was them and they were coming along the journey with me Your dad was a proud Welshman

listeners might be able to hear it in your accent and as you've said he was just a huge part of your journey albeit not a huge England fan but your mum was English so what do you think he'd make of you leading such an incredible team? Yeah he's always been supportive he's always said you know he supports me first and foremost

Like you said, I'm born and raised in Wales and from Cardiff. My dad was a proud Welshman. But yeah, rugby was huge in our lives as a community in Wales, was massive. And it gave him a sense of belonging as just as much as it did with me as well. So he knew the value of having to go and achieve what you wanted to achieve and do that on the world stage. And you have to be a little bit selfish in that front. So thankfully my mum was English. She's from Bristol and it allowed me to go and pursue.

to this career in England. And yeah, he'd be over the moon. He always said I was bossy, so maybe I was destined to be a leader in some front. So, yeah, I think I'm just assertive, but bossy is how he described me. Yeah, I've had that. And I like the word assertive as well. So we started the program, because I'm talking to, obviously, we always talk to extraordinary women here, but all three of you,

Shana who's spoken to and Ella, who's going to be our novelist who I'm talking to, have all achieved their dreams. And I was reading about you, and there was a detail. I always wonder with athletes, what is it about sports men and women that get you, that make you, I think you've built slightly differently to the rest of us. And I read that during lockdown and taking us back, when most of us were sort of probably drinking and eating far too much and whatever. And there's some people obviously working very hard. And you took it upon yourself to become a delivery driver, but you were the best. So, you know, you were out there.

You know, I just think that kind of gives us an insight into what makes you tick. Yeah, I just think whatever it is that I'm doing, I just want to give you the 100% best version of myself. It's probably just this natural competitive desire within me. Yeah, I was delivering for Amazon, which was crazy. But I ended up being one of their star performers. And thankfully, I got my contract back, so I was allowed to go play rugby again. But yeah, I think I would have been stuck there for a few years, if not. Because, yeah, but it's just, I mean, I think you just have a natural desire.

It's not motivation. I think it's just discipline and you start respecting yourself and yeah, you owe it to yourself really, don't you, to be the best version of you? And I think we all have a choice to show up how we want to show up. You get thrown in hardships, adversity,

but bottom line is how you react and respond and I always say it to the girls. True believer, your response is your responsibility. So, you know, make the most of it and pick the right choice for you, not for anyone else.

Yeah. And that was really wise words. I mean, we talked about you're losing both your parents and the hardship was when you lost your mum because she was suffering with addiction. And you, I mean, you were there with her through that. Yeah, I mean, you know, she'd been an addict for years since I was about 13, so over 16 years.

And it just came at a time where I think she just was grieving but really couldn't handle it and she couldn't get the help that she deserved. And it was really tough, a really tough time. And I look back on those times. you just feel guilt because you think, how can I help her, how could I have made it better for her? But yeah, she was such a deep human

and having to go through that time. I just, now I'm actually a patron for the living room, which is an addiction charity, and trying to do my bit and try and help, you know, people like my mum that maybe didn't get the right help that she fully deserved. So I'm trying to do everything I can to probably write some wrongs that I didn't really know any difference,

difference for or difference too. So yeah, she was a huge part of my life and I just felt like I needed to help her, but she just struggled massively. So hopefully changing the taboo of addiction as well. Absolutely. I think it's really important that you speak about it for that reason. And I know now that you're engaged. Yes.

Congratulations. Thank you very much. How are you both doing? Yeah, my partner, me and with Celia, we got engaged in January. So yeah, it's been nice. It's been good start. to 2026 for sure. But yeah, she's been full, full planning it.

She's got spreadsheets. We've got a date for next year. Celia Kwanza, I should say. He also plays... Celia Kwanza, yeah, yeah, yeah. ...place for Lester Tigers. Yes, we were... Well, we're at Ealing Trailfinders now,

and we were... Obviously, we met during Team GP when we were at the Olympics. So, yeah, she's fully invested in the planning of the wedding. She loves planning events, and that's something she gets stuck into. But, yeah, I'm very much an agree

of what she's saying and just nodding along like I'm involved. Well, you're going to be busy, leading a team. Exactly, exactly. Best of luck to you, Meg. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me this morning. Appreciate it. Thank you so much and glad my voice is back finally.

We are too, we are. Meg Jones there. And the BBC's Women's Six Nations coverage starts on Friday, the 10th of April with a 7pm preview on BBC 1, the first pictures, including England versus Silent and start on Saturday, April the 11th, something for us all to get behind. 84844 is the text number. For years, I've sounded like a broken record.

I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story.

From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Now, the Ministry of Defense has been accused of failing women who say they're suffering domestic abuse at the hands of their partners serving in the forces. The Survivor Family Network, which supports domestic abuse victims in the family courts, says women they've spoken to are left underwent.

supported by the military, which closes ranks around the alleged perpetrator. The network has compiled a dossier of cases detailing women's experiences, including horrific abuse, with some servicemen using battlefield techniques to inflict violence on their wives and girlfriends. In a moment, I'll be speaking to the director of the Survivor Family Network. But first, let's hear from Samantha about the kind of abuse she suffered. Samantha, not her real name, spoke to our reporter Melanie Abbott, but her words are voiced by an actor as her children's identities are protected by the courts.

You've got to remember that he was, you know, a professionally trained killer. He shook one of my children. He tried to grab my throat, my legs, and alongside of it. And this is almost more deadly in its own right. With all the emotional control, the gaslighting, the manipulation, the twisting of the narrative and the lies that really drove me into the... this sort of full sense of isolation and this constant fear.

You did try to seek help. At what point did you decide you needed help? When you are in a domestic abuse situation and you need to get out, there's only one way to do it. And I realised that I couldn't tell anyone. So I determined that I was going to end the relationship and get him out of my life and get him out of my property and get him a from the children as best as I possibly could. I then started to later on engage with legal counsel and litigation commenced, which was a minefield in its own right, with the family courts.

And as I realised that I wasn't really up against one individual, I was up against an institution in court. So I then turned towards the Army Welfare Service for help. but that was quite a long way down the line. It took me quite a long time to find my way knocking on the door of the Army Welfare Service. And what happened when you did turn to the Welfare Service? The caseworker simply didn't pursue my request for help. The lady, I think she spoke to me once and then the conversation went dead.

So I went back eventually and I had to file a complaint. They asked me to bring a complaint, which I did, and it was upheld. And as a result of that complaint, I was assigned a caseworker. I had assistance for about a year, I think. How was that panning out? I had to end it because I realised that the Army Welfare Service are a service line which reports and rolls up ultimately to the same individual chief of defence staff.

They represent victim and perpetrator. And what happened in my case was that my ex-partner went to the Army Welfare Service to seek help for alleged abuse by me on him. So I was an existing client. He then became a client and you had the same institution representing the interests of two parties. And in a domestic abuse charity, that is utterly unheard of. But within the Army Welfare Service, they represent victim an alleged perpetrator, which doesn't just blur the lines.

you know, it doesn't protect the actual victim. It exposes them to more harm and to more risk. How difficult was that for you to carry on without any support from the military? I had to go through the family courts. The involvement of the military was getting stronger. We had fellow servicemen submit so-called buddy letters, which are in short, glorifying character references, printed on MOD letterhead. I would say that his rank very much influenced people.

They see a highly decorated officer, they see uniform, they see a national hero, especially when someone presents very well. They simply did not see that the person I had lived with was someone I was absolutely terrified of and someone who had terrorised me and my children. The difficulty is, I suppose it's quite hard to prove that it was his uniform and his rank that had influenced that. Well, in the courts, because of his high rank, the judge said, out of respect,

would you like me to address you by your rank? I felt they sort of gave him this halo. And me as the victim, well, I simply had no voice. And I think they started to treat me as someone who didn't deserve to be heard. What's been the effect of all this on you and on your children? My health has suffered immensely.

I was diagnosed with PTSD, which is a lifelong condition I now have to manage. There's no cure for it. It impacts me on a daily basis. I lost my job. My employee did not understand my situation. It's had a significant impact on my family life. It destroyed a subsequent relationship that I had because when you're in this machine, this sort of constant, almost fight,

Everything I was experiencing was just so toxic. Of course, my children have also seen their mother suffer. I've been hospitalized. I've lost friends, you know, lifelong friends because of this. Because it's so overwhelming. It changes you forever. Samantha, not her real name, talking to our reporter, Melanie Abbott. Well, I'm joined now by Natalie Page, the director of the Survivor Family Network.

Natalie, you were contacted by 52 women and you spoke to nine of them in detail. Tell me what sparked this investigation. Well, through my work supporting domestic abuse victims in family court, I came across similar horrific details in a few cases. And the patterns were impossible to ignore. So two years ago, I launched a survey and I reached out to victims and it built into a dossier of 52 cases, but it started as listening to survivors. it then became an investigation and then the resulting files became a dossier detailing a hidden epidemic.

Which was? The hidden epidemic of domestic abuse perpetrated by serving an ex-military personnel against victims in their own home. What kind of support did women seek from the military and how often was that support forthcoming? Well, Samantha's story that we've just heard is tragically typical. She was turned away from the Army Welfare Service with no reason given. And then she only got a support worker after she complained. And then found out later that the same support service was also supporting her abuser in family court. So the system needs to be completely separated, one team for victims and one team for perpetrators.

Welfare staff must really stop seeing their job as protecting their boys and start protecting families. The most crucial thing of all is that independent oversight is definitely needed and the chain of commands cannot keep investigating itself. What kind of things were you told? What types of abuse? Frankly, the stories were utterly horrifying. women describe being strangled to the point of having a stroke. Partners use combat weapons to threaten and coerce their victims, along with extreme physical and sexual violence using battlefield, close combat techniques. Military training, skills and resources were used by serving officers against British civilian victims in their own homes.

And we heard from Samantha there and that she couldn't get. any welfare support initially but what's the effect on the other women that you've spoken to being like and their children the effects are profound that they really have nowhere to go every service that was supposed to help them let them down and all systems close ranks on them left them at the mercy of highly skilled combat professionals who could very much endanger their welfare with nobody to turn to, and any information they were giving to services, ultimately ended up going back up the chain of command and could end up in the hands of the perpetrator. You called your dossier Brass Pass. Why have you called it that? Explain what that means.

I called it the Brass Pass because the higher the rank, the top brass, the more of a free pass these men seem to get. Deenior officers write glowing references. that sway the family courts. Meanwhile, the RMP and welfare services close ranks and protect their boys. So the brass part encapsulates how rank becomes a get-out-of-jail-free card and how loyalty to the regiment trumps

law, morality and basic human decency. You said that in the family courts, the alleged perpetrator is often believed, particularly if they wear a uniform or they've been decorated and this can carry more weight than the victim's account. But judges are trained to examine the facts

and apply their extensive legal expertise to reach a fair outcome. So do you believe that this central facet of our society is not taking place in these cases? I believe it's a fault of the system because 55% of the women responding to us said that their reviews are either turned up in uniform or produce letters from,

commanding officers praising him as a good father and an outstanding soldier when he stood accused of abuse. And I think judges see the rank and the records and might find it hard to square that with the abuser that's in front of them. In 2022, the MOD introduced a victim witness care unit to support victims and give independent advice. So presumably what happened to Samantha would not or shouldn't happen now? technically it shouldn't have happened at all but the women that I'm talking to tell me that what's what's being changed in the MOD in terms of their their abuse strategy is nowhere near enough on the ground the cover-up culture very much remains so they protect their boys and they show and tell victims that real change means independent oversight not empty words and at the

moment they are putting the regiment not the victims first. And I would say as well, this is currently a developing story. There's a lot more to be revealed about this. And there's a lot more to be revealed that's happened since 2022, which shows that these measures so far haven't gone nearly far enough. Yeah, because in 2022, the MOD also launched a defence serious crime command to investigate allegations outside the single service chain of command. Is that enough? Is that what you're asking for? I think there's systemic and long-term concerns,

but there needs to be immediate commitment from the Ministry of Defence to ban officers writing references in domestic abuse cases. This is vital. Secondly, all serious allegations investigated must be investigated by an independent civilian body, not the military police.

And third, there needs to be mandatory trauma-informed training so that every commander understands that battlefield skills do not belong at home. We cannot keep sending men trained to kill into family homes and then act surprise when they are violent in family homes. The MODE also launched last year of violence against women and girls' task force. So how confident are you that that will make a difference? As I said, this is a developing story.

Since the article by Ali Kephardt was published in the mail on Sunday, my inboxes are heaving with victims coming forward. There's a lot more to come from this. We're talking about decorated individuals using highly sophisticated strategies, and a lot of complex stories and issues are coming in. I think that that does show that this is systemic and very much a developing story. And I'm sure we will be coming back to it to speak again, Natalie Page for now. Thank you. We did ask a minister from the Ministry of Defence to appear on the programme, but no one was available. The ministry told us in a statement, these reports are deeply concerning and we're urgently looking into them.

Domestic abuse is a crime and we encourage anyone who's experienced it to get in touch with the service police or civilian police. We're taking action to give greater confidence to those reporting criminal behaviour and step-up support across defence. These include stronger measures in the Armed Forces Bill to protect victims, our violence against women and girls' task force, and our victim witness care unit. We have significantly strengthened measures to prevent and respond to domestic abuse, including independent investigation of serious offences and specialist independent support for victims. We also recognise there's more to do and we're committed to continuing to improve. They added that they would encourage anyone who's experienced crimes perpetrated by a member of the armed forces to report it to the service or civilian police.

We also approached the judicial office about the points made about judges in family courts, but were told they could not comment. 84844 is the text number. We started the program by asking you about whether your dreams have come true, because we are usual. As usual, speaking to some very inspiring women. I'm going to read out some of your messages. Emma emailed in today. I am 56 this year. I went to an all-girls school from 11 to 18.

I always dreamed of being an engineer. My father was a mechanical engineer. My maternal grandfather was a civil engineer. I was lucky enough to attend WISE, women in science and engineering, an event in my lower sixth, which cemented the desire to study chemical engineering. I went on to study and being sponsored by the Department of Trade Industry.

I was one of 11 females out of a cohort of 45. after completing a PhD, I got my dream job in design and startup for pharmaceutical manufacturing and had a fulfilling 25 year career. My one remaining dream is for more girls to see the possibilities of STEM. You never know. Maybe your message, your email inspired someone listening. Another one here is saying, this is from Ann in Devon.

She says, my childhood dream was to be a nurse and deliver babies. I used to make a hospital ward by lining up all my teddy, and dolls like the old Nightingale Ward and always dreamed of being an nurse. I've just retired after 47 years of living my childhood dream, first as a midwife for 20 years and then into wider general nursing. What an incredible honour it was. 84844. Now, my next guest is a former lawyer turned author.

Ella King's new novel, Dear Darling, tells the story of Lauren, a young teenage girl who has a relationship with a much older man. When she's an adult and a mother herself, this man comes back into Ella's life and she decides to confront him about the harm he did to her. Ella joins me now from Venice. Welcome to the program, Ella. Hi, Anita. I am indeed in Venice. How is Venice? Don't make us all feel to us. Venice is amazing. I do look like I'm in a tennis court right now, but that is in fact my room. A tennis court in Venice. Congratulations on the book. Tell us about dear darling. Why did you want to write it? Where did they do? this idea come from?

Yeah, so Dear Darling is a post-me-2 retelling of Vladimir Abakov's Lilita. It follows a British Asian woman named Lauren, who's a lawyer, a mother, a wife, and it really follows her from the moment that she receives a letter from her stepfather, Daniel, who's recently been released from prison. It has two timelines, the first. is Lauren's experience of falling love with Daniel when she's 14, and the second 20 years later when she confronts Daniel about their relationship.

It is so multi-layered. It's complex and at times difficult read, but also a real page turner. And you kind of mapped out this great story. Let's hear a bit from the book, and then we'll carry on to talk about it. So the book opens with Lauren receiving a letter from the man. who had abused her 20 years before asking for them to meet. So we're going to hear from the audiobook as she sees him again for the first time in 18 years. There he is.

The man I've escaped from and wanted to see for 18 years. Lolly, he says. I want his cheeks to have sunken, for his middle to be soft and doughy. But it's not true. He still has an electricity about him. He's more magnetic at 48 than he was. at 30. His hair isn't that rich brown anymore, but it's still full and professionally silvered, and he's clean-shaven, revealing that rakish scar to the left of his chin.

Age has claimed him only around the eyes, deep folds where once his skin was smooth, but it hasn't touched the colour, still that brilliant navy. He takes me in slowly, his eyes holding mine before running over my hair, falling across my body. Under his gaze, I'm ashamed of my appearance, the fine lines around my eyes, the heaviness of my breasts, the pouch of my stomach. And then she goes on to say that she still wants him to desire her. So tell me about your character, Lauren, and how complex this is,

because at the beginning of the book, she's running away from her own family to meet her abuser. Yeah, so outwardly at the start of the novel, Lauren, appears to have all the trappings of success. She's a lawyer, she's married, she has a young daughter. But actually, the novel opens at a point where she's at the lowest in her life. She's recently lost a baby in a stillbirth, and it's in this moment of grief and postnatal depression that she receives this letter from her stepfather asking for her to meet.

And you, there's so much in, that you have these two parallel storylines, Lauren's life now, and then you take us back to her life as a teenager. So we are getting to see both sides. Tell me about that technique. Yeah, I mean, my intention for writing dear darling was really for it to be a kind of fictional deconstruction of Fladam and Nabokov's Lolita. And so in, in Lolita, the book, you see, you know, Humbert, Humbert falling in love with Lillita from his perspective. But I really wanted to show the adult Lillita as well,

because I felt like Lelita, the novel, gave Humbert, Humbert, such an easy get-out pass. She dies as a child. He never gets to witness her rage. He never gets to hear what she actually thinks as an adult. So for me, I really wanted to pull out that adult timeline and have them run together with that experience of falling in love. And you also explore the fact that she's a mother. Why was that important?

Yes. Yeah, I think it was really important for me because I've worked with a lot of survivors from domestic violence, charities and from anti-human trafficking charities. And actually what I found was that the majority of these survivors were mothers. And it was something that really wasn't addressed in fiction. I think we have seen quite a lot of fiction where, you know, the survivors are single. And I really wanted to explore the complexities around being a mother but also being a survivor. Yeah, and blaming yourself. Sorry, I just patched out of there.

You just glitched a little bit. And also that's sort of the shame and the blame on yourself. Yes, and how much a relationship like that can affect motherhood. Yeah. Because the character itself, she's trying so hard to be a good mother, a good wife, and she's never taught her husband of this illicit relationship that she's had. So she's spent so much energy becoming this different person. And that kind of emotional toll is what I really wanted to explore in the book.

And you explore it really well as well as I'm not going to, there's no spoilers, but you have to read it to find out where the story goes. But you were a corporate lawyer, as you mentioned, before becoming a writer. It's quite a change. I started the programme by saying we're talking to women who've achieved their dreams, but you always wanted to be a writer. I did. And honestly, I loved being a corporate lawyer as well.

But I had always wanted to be a writer. I was always writing stories. And it was really, it was actually really when I had my first child and I was on maternity. I thought maternity was a holiday. It's not. I had no idea what was going on. And, you know, during that time, it made me very conscious of the fact that I really wanted to use my time in a way that was really reflective of the things that I believed in. and I really wanted to write stories about survivors

because I'd also had that background in working with charities. Yeah, and speaking to all those women. Yeah. And you also, you had a setback because you were diagnosed with a rare form of cancer. Yes. And were you writing at the time? Were you able to write at the time? So, yeah, that period of time,

intersex with writing in a really strange way because I'd started writing when I was on maternity with my first daughter but then I'm quite a slow writer so I hadn't really progressed very far and then when me and my husband decided to try for a second child I thought that I was pregnant and I cracked out those maternity jeans at 12 weeks and I thought oh wow this baby is growing really quickly. But actually what I was growing was a tumour. It's a very rare form of cancer that can grow in the uterus when you are trying to have a baby. And that resulted in seven months of chemo where I wasn't working. But I also, beyond chemo is quite boring. There's only so much Netflix you can watch. And I started to send out parts of my novel as short stories. I want to

few competitions and then got agent representation off the back of that. So it, yeah, it's a strange connection and obviously I wouldn't have wished for that period to happen, but it was quite instrumental in me starting my career as a writer. Goodness me. And an experience like that must really change your perspective? Yeah, I think it does. And I think it also echoed something which I knew before, which was the importance of fiction to write things that are true and that are reflective of real life. And I wanted to bring the loss of a child into my second book as well, because again, it was something that I wasn't seeing in fiction. Yeah, the loss of a child, the experience of this 14-year-old girl, but looking back on her life

as an adult, and also portraying people from your own backgrounds as you're Singaporean. and your parents migrated to the UK. For me, that was really, it's really important. Yes, I think that is really important. And I have, so my children have a mixed heritage, my husband is white. And when I started writing my first book, actually, I was very conscious of the fact that there wasn't a lot of fiction

for multiracial, for multiracial audience. Sure. And obviously I have multivational daughters. So I felt a responsibility and a challenge to write those experiences. And it is a different experience from being a second generation immigrant. But I was determined to follow that through in my fiction. Yeah, yeah. And you have.

Have you already started on your next book? I have. I have. I tend to write about things that I'm frightened of or make me very angry. So I'm writing about the rise of misogyn. in the UK about a woman who's married to a man who becomes one of the leaders of the Manosphere. I'm just really fascinated by the girls and the women around these men. So that's what my third book is.

You'll have to come in and talk to me about it when it comes out. But for now, best of luck with this book. I'm sure it's going to spark lots of conversation and it is a very good read and a good story. I look forward to turning into a film. Ella King, thank you. Dear Darling is out on the ninth of. April and I must say that if you have been affected by anything you've heard in the program today then do go to the BBC's Action Line website for links to support and on childhood dreams

as a as a child my dream was to be an air hostess unfortunately at the time you needed two languages fast forward 30 years in financial services at the age of 62 I finally got my wings I'm 65 now and living my dreamers cabin crew wonderful join me tomorrow for more women's hour That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Alan Davis, and on BBC Radio 4, we're off into alternate realities mapped out by science. This is Life Without,

where I pull one thread from the magnificent fabric of life and watch what unravels. Scientists around the world would be crying themselves to sleep. A bunch of mammals would be worrying about where their favourite snack was. And we bring it down to Earth. David Beckham I can imagine him putting that on the socials My bees of my girls have all disappeared

Sometimes we patch it up and crack on We will survive We will survive Humans are ingenious That is our hallmark property We should prize above everything else But sometimes It's bigger than us

Join me to find out just how far The Unravelling can go Subscribe to Life Without on BBC Sounds For years I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid.

Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth.

Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.