Woman's Hour - Artist, Elsa James; Forced adoption and unmarried mothers; Ukrainian refugees; Chef, Fatmata Binta

Episode Date: July 15, 2022

A formal apology should be issued by the government to the thousands of unmarried mothers in England and Wales who had their babies taken for adoption in the 50s, 60s, 70s. In a report published today, the Joint Committee on Human Rights says the Government bears ultimate responsibility for the pain and suffering caused by public institutions and state employees that railroaded mothers into those unwanted adoptions. Harriet Harman MP is Chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights.Fulani chef Fatmata Binta has won the world's most prestigious gastronomy prize, the 2022 Basque Culinary World Prize, an international achievement award for chefs who improve society through food. Fatmata is the first African to receive the award, and won for her work celebrating nomadic food culture and exploring west African cuisine through her Dine on a Mat pop-up restaurant.What shape does a life take after fleeing a war? It's nearly five months since Russia invaded Ukraine and families across the UK are trying to redefine their 'normal' after being displaced. Many will be housed in temporary accommodation; others will be living with host families. While safety and the promise of a new home will bring comfort and relief, sharing a domestic space with strangers can bring its own set of challenges. Anastasia Skelton is an Ukrainian living in the UK who is currently volunteering as a coordinator in Canterbury, helping to match refugees with host families. And Kate Daniels is a family therapist and senior lecturer in clinical psychology at Christchurch University. She has set up a project to equip host families with the emotional skills necessary to make the transition as easy as possible for the people displaced by war.The artist and feminist activist Elsa James tells us about exploring her identity as a black woman living in Essex in her latest exhibition 'Othered in a Region that has Been Historically Othered'. She has lived in the county for more than 20 years but asks ‘Is being in Essex diluting my black identity’? She also examines the lives of historical black female figures as well the women who came over as nurses as part of Windrush and who made their homes in Essex.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Harriet Harman Interviewed Guest: Veronica Smith Interviewed Guest: Fatmata Binta Interviewed Guest: Anastasia Skelton Interviewed Guest: Kate Daniels Interviewed Guest: Elsa James Film Still: Andy Delaney

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. I'll be speaking to the new recipient of the world's most prestigious food prize today. Fatmata Binta's speciality is the food of her tribe, the Fulani. Really can't wait to talk to her about the food culture she promotes and is also very importantly preserving not only the recipes, but the way of life and crucially the stories connected

to the West and Central African cuisine. So this morning, we're going to talk about one of my favourite subjects, food, because I'm permanently hungry. I'd like to hear from you about the dishes or recipes that have been passed down in your family that you would continue to share with the next generation. What is the special food stuff that brings a smile to your face or makes you drool just thinking about it? Is there a spectacular trifle that only your family makes? Is there a secret barbecue rub or marinade that only you know about? Do you

have a peculiar food ritual? Share your stories with me this morning. You can get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. We've got so many recipes in our household, but the one thing that I would preserve to pass on to the next generation is definitely my gran's ginger pickle and my nan's carrots and cauliflower pickle and this is because i remember on a trip to india when i was about seven years old she made tons of the stuff first of all she dried out the carrots and the cauliflowers by laying them out in the midday sun before pickling them in lots of spices and then putting them into huge containers for us to bring back to the UK in our suitcases which is what you could do in the 80s so your food stories please you can text me 84844

you can also email by going to our website or you can drop me a note on social media it's at BBC Woman's Hour let's chat food there is a warning though you may get hungry so maybe grab a biscuit for the next hour. We're also going to be discussing identity, or at least how artist Elsa James feels about her identity as a black Essex girl. She'll be joining me to talk about her new exhibition and the brilliantly named Essex Girl Liberation Front. Plus, we are hearing about the issues around taking in a refugee family. If you have taken in or are planning on housing a family and have any questions or want to share your experience, then please do get in touch. The text number once again, 84844.

But first, you've just heard about it in the headlines. A formal apology should be issued by the government to the thousands of unmarried mothers in England and Wales who had their babies taken for adoption in the 50s, 60s and 70s. In a report published today, the Joint Committee on Human Rights says the government bears ultimate responsibility for the pain and suffering caused by public institutions and state employees that railroaded mothers into those unwanted adoptions. Harriet Harman MP is chair of the Joint Committee on

Human Rights and Veronica Smith is the founder member of the Movement for an Adoption Apology and both join me this morning. A very good morning. Harriet, I'm going to come to you first. Every so often we do an item on Woman's Hour that blows the lid on society and the horrors of what was just accepted and expected of women. This is one of those. It is and it was an absolute cruelty. It was brutal and it was happening in plain sight. You can hardly, the recognition of the importance of the bond between mother and child has been recognised down the centuries and yet for these women whose only crime was to not be married, their punishment was to have the baby taken away

and then told they'd shamed their family and that they've got to keep it secret and just get on with their lives. And of course, they couldn't and they never did. And I think the very least that could happen is the government should do an apology and also support them in dealing with what has been a lifetime of trauma. I mean, you estimated 185,000 children were adopted in less than 30 years from 1949 right up to 1976. What was happening?

Well, I think there's probably more. I think 185,000 is probably a lower estimate. But being 71 myself, I can remember that time very clearly. There was no sex education. There was virtually no contraception. There was virtually no abortion. If a girl got pregnant, the best she could do was to marry the father. But if he denied he was the father or he was already married, it was absolute terror. The terror that we lived with of getting pregnant and the shame you would bring on your family and it would be the worst thing. And therefore the baby must be taken away. And these women were taken, moved out of their families into mother and baby homes so that the neighbours couldn't see the growing bulge. And then they were supposed to come back to their neighbourhood as if nothing had happened and get on with their lives. And it was supposedly the best for them. And it's just, it's a terrible thing in a way. I'm so admiring of all the women who've come forward and demanded an apology because it's so painful for them still and for their children who were told your mother didn't want you and she gave you away so firstly they were shamed then they were told they'd given their baby away and when

society's attitude changed rightly to being more progressive about lone parents then they were judged for having supposedly given their babies away, which they hadn't. So I think it's just a terrible episode to think that just in this country, just a few decades ago, hundreds of thousands of women had their babies taken from them at 10 weeks old. As you're speaking, Harriet, I'm just wondering how many people listening to this are thinking about someone they knew knew or maybe it happened to them. So if you do want to share your experience with us or if this has triggered a thought in your mind, then get in touch. 84844. We'd love to hear from you this morning.

How many mothers are we talking about? Well, at least 185,000, but probably many more because a lot of these adoptions were done just almost secretly. And you took evidence not just from the mothers, but also the children who were adopted. Why was it important to speak to them as well? Because the children, some of them were told that their mothers just didn't want them. And that gave them a great sense of sadness. Others wanted to find their mothers, but were not able to because the tracing system isn't proper. You know, the birth, the adoption certificate bears no relationship to the birth certificate. Their names were changed. Some of them were brought up in loving, caring, functional families, and others were brought up in absolutely terrible families. They don't know their medical history.

You go to any medical appointment, you're asked if you've got any heart disease and any specific sort of cancer in the family. They don't know. Their identities were ripped away from them. And I think one of the most telling things was when one of the mothers said, I asked her when she was giving evidence to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, did you go on to have any other children? And she said, I didn't want children.

I only wanted him. It's absolutely heartbreaking. I'm going to bring in Veronica, who actually gave evidence to hear from Veronica and hear your story. You got pregnant, Veronica, back in 1965. You were 24 years old. So what happened to you? You weren't you weren't a teenager 24 working as a nurse tell me your story I was working away from home

at Butlin's holiday camp and fell in love with a very handsome red coat and got pregnant I then told my elder sister and my mother, and the wheel started in motion. We went to an adoption agency, and the story was, you will leave your job, you will go into a Catholic hostel in South London for a number of months. You will then have your baby, and you'll come home as if nothing's happened can i take you back to to that that day where you had to talk to your mum and your sister about it just what were the feelings that you were going through were you aware that this was this is what might happen or did you think that they might be more sympathetic just no i mean in those days um no i didn't have a phone i had to write a letter

to tell them and um i just asked for help basically and that was that was the help they got got me how pressurized were you very very i was told it would kill my father, which I very much doubt. He was just a lovely man. I think he would have taken it. We lived in a big house. They could have accommodated me and the baby. Still very painful to talk about it. Yeah.

And then you had to return to work? I had to find a job. I came home. I only saw my daughter for a week and then went home and had to find a job, of course, yeah. And what was that experience like, having to go away from your family, give birth and that very traumatic time? Luckily, I can't remember a lot of it, thank goodness.

I do remember I did have antenatal care, they made sure we got that. The experience in the hospital wasn't pleasant. A lot of mothers talk about scrubbing floors and domestic work, even up to when you almost took delivery time. And I felt very alone, very alone. Were you ever able to talk to anybody about it? Could you tell anybody about what you'd been through? I could never tell my mother. And we were estranged for five years before she died um I eventually started

talking about it but I it took a breakdown in the early 90s for me to sort of get everything tumbling out of my head that I hadn't talked about for so many years 25 years later. Were you able to trace your daughter, Veronica? Yes, I did trace her. And I found out that she lived in Canada. I used an intermediary to make contact. And she really wasn't ready at that time. She was 25. But when she had a baby herself, then she did contact me to tell me.

And we finally met in 2004. And how was that? Fantastic, fantastic. Yes, she came to our house with a little baby and it was a toddler then. And it was lovely. We went to the beach and just had a lovely day. And then in 2010, you set up the movement Calling for an Apology.

Yes, I'd followed what was going on in Australia. State by state, they did their own, all did their own apologies. And once they'd done all that, we started our movement. What would an apology from the government mean to you? Oh, just recognition of what happened was so wrong, so wrong. All those years of people doing this practice,

and nobody seemed to think it was right wrong rather nobody and you can hear the pain in your voice still to this day veronica so this i'm sure we'll get harriet i don't think harriet will rest until we get an apology and we really thank her for supporting us and we hope that the other recommendations from the report will be carried out as well i mean veronica thank you for for sharing that story with us here on women's i know it can't be easy to talk about it lots of women harriet getting in touch to share their own experiences. You know, you've really sparked something in our listeners. We've had a message in from saying babies conceived outside marriage were also removed from their married mums.

This happened to a school friend of mine a few years ago. She received a file of harrowing information on the circumstances of her adoption in the northeast of England. Someone else is saying, Moira's saying, my comment is that the pressure on young girls and women to have their children adopted largely came mainly from their parents. Oh, this is interesting. She says the government was not involved. Additional pressure came from the church, largely the Roman Catholic Church. Their parents put pressure on the girls to give up their children, not the government. A government apology is meaningless. What would you say to Moira, Harriet? Well well i think that there was no support for

uh there was no government support financially for for parent women out of who weren't married to keep their children and actually the roman catholic church has apologized and i think that we just need an official the what the apology says is the government is saying to these women you were not wrongful people you haven't done anything wrong but what was done to you was wrong what happened to you was wrong and the state was involved because the state was obviously in charge of the whole adoption process and recognizing that they've suffered over the years so I think that's why an apology is important becauseising that they've suffered over the years. So I think that's why an apology is important, because for decades they've been told they did something

wrong by getting pregnant and by supposedly giving away their baby. And also the decades of secrecy. One woman said to us that she got married, she had children, her husband was so ashamed that she'd had a baby before they met that he made her promise never to tell their children that they had an older sibling so she wasn't able to tell her children until he died when her children were in their 60s and then after he died she was able to tell them you've got got an older brother. And the years of secrecy imposed with this shame, I think a government apology will say, you weren't wrong. The system was wrong.

It would never happen now. And that surely should make us recognise it shouldn't have happened then. And the brutality and the pain of the separation of the mother and the child. Well, we have had a message from a government spokesperson who said, and this is what they've said, we have the deepest sympathy to all those affected by historic forced adoption. Whilst we cannot undo the past, we have strengthened our legislation and practice to be built on empathy from NHS maternity services caring for vulnerable women and babies to our work transforming the adoption process and care system to help children settle into stable homes.

There is help available to those affected by past adoption practices, including with tracing their birth children. And the church have apologised. I really do urge the government to apologise. And a government apology like they've done in Australia is really meaningful and important. And I've spoken to the new Secretary of State for Education, who's responsible for children and adoption, who's James Cleverley, and urged him to do this. It means a lot to those women. It will put the record straight that they didn't do anything wrong and that they were brutally treated. And I think it's important. And I really hope they'll do that. You know, sometimes in government you can't do anything, but sometimes you can just do a bit of good.

And I think this is one of those occasions where really they should understand that it is their job now. And the government has apologised for all sorts of things in the past that happened that were awful, that have meant a lot to those who suffered as a result. And this is one of those occasions. But Harriet, these sort of deeply sexist attitudes still exist in society, don't they? Women are held, as we talk about a lot on this programme, to a different standard in every aspect of their lives. It's something, you know, how do we shift that mindset? Well, I think the shame was on the woman, not on the man. There was no sense of a shame of a man for fathering a child out of wedlock who was

regarded as a bit of a lad, but no shame and the woman, the girl, bore entirely the responsibility. And I think in a way the fact that all the systems were headed by men who were, could not seemingly get their head round how awful the separation of a mother and a child in this way was, I think is very telling. I can't imagine if public policy was shaped equally by women and men that this would have happened. And I think a lot has changed today. A lot of progress has been made. But I think, you know, they call it historic adoption sometimes. And I think that's the wrong word, because these mothers are still the mothers of those children. There's nothing historic about it. It wasn't an event.

Once they've had that child, they're the mother of that child for the rest of their lives. And therefore, I think that, you know, the new man in charge of this policy in government, I think he should recognise that. I just want to bring Veronica back in on this because Harriet made an interesting point there, didn't she? I mean, we know this, it's the burden of shame is on the woman. What happened to this red coat that you fell in love with, the father of your

daughter? Well, I traced him as well and he doesn't really want to be involved. What happened at the time? Did he know? Did he know what you were going through? Not really, not really.

So like you say, it's all on these often very young women. Here's the other thing, Harriet. You know, this is, and we know this, often sort of the dirty work of the patriarchy is put on women to uphold, isn't it? Because it was mothers sending their daughters away to have these children, we've been saying adopted, but removed and taken away from their daughters. And then it's women within the system, the nurses that they were coming into contact with. It's often women that are upholding the patriarchy.

It's basically the shame of sex, the shamefulness that a woman or a girl has had sex with a man that she's not married to. And that has to be covered up, basically. She had to be taken from her family. Some of these women, very young, 16, 17, 18, taken away from the family home, putting these mother and baby homes, which weren't marked, but they were in different communities so that they were taken away with people they never met before to go through this experience because of the shame that they'd had sex. And I remember being that age myself, that the terror of getting pregnant when there was no contraception, the lack of information, no sex education, but we lived in a state of terror. What would happen if we got pregnant? And then the shame that there would be on the whole family. So I think things have moved on. But we've got to recognise that whilst we can't just say, oh, well, things have moved on. We've got to recognise that there are people still suffering to this day for what was done. Absolutely. And we'll be coming back and no doubt talking about this at a later date on the programme.

For now, Harriet Harmon. Oh, before you do go, Harriet, one quick question on the Tory leadership. Who would you like, who do Labour fancy their chances against? Who would you quite like to be up against in the next election? Well, I think, you know, I'm absolutely going to dodge the question on this one and not say who I would think would be better for this country or worse. But I actually think a change of government would be best, I'm afraid. So none of them get my vote. Of course you do. Harriet, thank you so much for speaking to us this morning. So many of you getting in touch with me via text to share your thoughts on this shocking story that we've been hearing about this morning. Jane says, I was a social worker in the 1970s and can remember

trying to persuade pregnant mothers to keep their children how it was possible. They found it so difficult to go against the social culture at the time. Only one mother of about five women did so. A male listener has been in touch saying, sitting in my car in floods of tears, thinking about my birth mother who gave me up for adoption 56 years ago. So little I know about her and I had a lovely adopted family, but I always just wanted her to know I was okay. I've got to stop crying now as I have an optician's appointment.

Thank you for this item and those campaigning on this. And that's from Mike. And someone else says, I'm thinking of my aunt who was forced by her parents to give up her baby in the 60s. Thankfully, you reunited in the 1990s. My aunt never heard what had happened to her, but also never recovered. Thank you to all of you who are getting in touch with me this morning. 84844 is the number to text. Now, Fatmata Binta is a chef who has researched, cooks and promotes the food of the Fulani people, the largest nomadic tribe in Africa. And she's won the world's most prestigious gastronomy prize, the 2022 Basque Culinary World Prize, an international achievement award for chefs who improve society through food Fatmata is the first African to receive the award

and won for her work celebrating nomadic food culture and exploring West African cuisine through her Dine on a Mat pop-up restaurant and she joins me now live from Ghana Welcome to Woman's Hour Fatmata, first of all huge congratulations

your life's work the food and culture you're passionate about has been recognised on the world stage. How are you feeling? I'm feeling good. Thank you so much. I'm very excited and it's been a humbling experience and I'm looking forward to everything that's going to come after this. Oh, and I'm sure there'll be lots and lots.

Now, you won the prize for the work you've done with your pop-up restaurants. So let's talk about that. Tell us about Dine on a Mat. Why is it called that? And tell us more. So Dine on a Mat is a traditional nomadic restaurant that I started four or five years ago.

And for me, the main goal has been to promote, you know, create vibrant dishes inspired by Fulani communities across Africa, host dinners that is focused on conversations around ingredients that are underused, but also promoting the food culture because that's how I grew up eating. And those are my fondest memories. So I wanted to share it with the world.

So that's how Diananimat was born. And, you know, let's talk about your food culture so you grew up you're promoting the food of the Fulani people and let's talk about how you grew up and how the food was passed down through your mother and your grandmothers as well. Yes food has been a very important part of my life I I grew up in the kitchen. Both grandmothers were cooks. They owned restaurants. The one in Sierra Leone, she owned a cookery.

We call it Baka in Sierra Leone, which is a mini restaurant. And the one in Guinea, she used to sell like every Wednesdays when the Fulani's have this Luma market, which is the biggest trade market for the Fulani people. So I was bounced back

between these two people in Guinea and Sierra Leone. So my love for food, my passion, my knowledge, it all stems from spending time with these women. Oh, tell us more. Make us feel really, really hungry this morning. Take us into that

kitchen and describe the scene and tell us a bit about the food that you were eating. Our food is very, I would would say bold but very interesting because we are nomads and also our food is very much influenced by our lifestyle now people we are cattle people we are always on the go and we we focus more on you know cattle we are the great so we move we tend to move a lot so most times when they slaughter they will sell the meat and then we'll feed on things like the offals, the head, the neck. And I vividly remember one of my favorites was whenever, like very early in the morning, 5am, when they slaughtered a cow, you know, today is going to be a good day because everything else that is not going to the market, they're going to dump in this one big pot with maize and then cook and that was a very memorable experience.

So the Fulani culture is very low waste and sustainable as well then? Yes, absolutely. From nose to tail we do not waste at all because as I say we are always on the go. We try to consume less so we don't waste. So for example, if we slaughter a cow, apart from the meat, even the skin we use. So we either cook the skin until it's soft, which in Nigeria they call pomo, in Ghana they call wile, we eat the skin. Or we use the skin for bags, slippers, like the Guinean fulani, they're actually known for that. So we tend not to waste at all. And even when we harvest our ingredients, for us not to waste it, we sun dry it.

So most of our ingredients is influenced by our lifestyle because we are always on the go. And you're all about promoting that as well right now because it's a big conversation that we're having around the world. How not to waste, how to live sustainably, not use plastic. Yes, promoting and preserving, but most importantly, tackling the issues that we face every day because we are having all these conferences talking about food waste, sustainability, and world food crisis. So it was very important for me to also use that platform to highlight these issues because I

believe any opportunity you get for someone to come to you to eat that's that's an opportunity for you to send a message to the world so it's it's a big part of what I do sustainability women empowerment but also promoting ingredients that are sustainable for our planet like ponio which is a big part also on my menu ponies an ancient grain it has been around for over 7 000 years it's gluten-free it's very healthy and if you think about our land like the planet itself it's very easy to grow it's a sustainable grain you you you saw it you can harvest within 8 to 12 weeks you don't need to plough the land too much, even thrive in drought areas. So it's a big part of our future. So you're promoting phonio. And do people eat it a lot?

Ironically, no, because the stories back in the day, it was only reserved for the elite, because as much as it's very good for the planet and everything else. But it's also a very tedious grain. It's very tedious to process because the size of it is like sand. So people tend to avoid it because of. But if you go to the north of Ghana or just the Sahel areas, you find women growing this. And that's what they eat. They focus on sustenance.

So it's not business. So that's also part of our programme we are working on. I want to go back into your story a little bit, because when you were 11, civil war broke out in Sierra Leone. That went on from 1991 to 2002. What impact did that have on your life and how did that change your situation, but also how you ate so for me honestly like that shaped me as a chef that was a very important phase in my life because being in the

city going to school it's a different world from being forced to move into this village where everything was done from scratch and it's And it was very shocking to just go. So, and I come from a very large family. I'm talking over 500 cousins. And because Fulan is also known to marry a lot, they'll marry like four or five wives. And each wife will have like at least eight kids or more. That's a lot of birthdays to remember.

Exactly. So moving into this village, which we were not prepared for, but even before we moved, before we left Sierra Leone, I remembered all the neighbours would come together with an ingredient or two, and they would cook and then we would share that food. So also community was one thing I learned from that experience. So when we moved to this village that could only accommodate like 100 people

and we were in lots there, it was overpopulated. And the food couldn't sustain us that was available. So for like a bag of rice, which is 50 kg, could only feed us for like three days, four days. So we had to look for a way to survive. And my grandmother came up with this idea for us to start growing for new. And also as teenagers, it was a good way for us to channel our energy. So I learned so much during that time, going to the backyard, plucking leaves and walk straight to the kitchen.

And these are lessons learned from the women, from your mother, from your grandmothers, Foo women. Exactly. The men were still in Sierra Leone. The village was occupied by women more than men. So having to spend time with your aunties, your grandmothers, your grandaunts, it was a very important part of my life. And that's when I, after I went to culinary school, I wanted to go back to those fond memories I have

because now it would be impossible to have everybody back into that village again. And I wanted to share that culture, you know, to people and promote it. Oh, it's beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. You went to culinary school, you became a chef, but then you gave that up. How did that go down?

So I went to school. I studied international relations. And I wanted something more because it was something that they asked me to do. Because, you know, going up in a traditional home, they want you to be a lawyer. They believe that's the fitted fitted you know are you talking you're talking to an indian woman i'm nodding yes of course lawyer accountant doctor exactly and i remember whenever there were times my mom would call me to just ask me in very early in the morning are you sure this is what you want to do for a living and i'll continue saying yes so the time she started like supporting me was when I was

featured on Brussels Airlines and then she took this magazine she was carrying it everywhere she was going bragging to family members. Here's a question for you now Africa is a vast continent why is the cuisine of this incredible region not on the world stage like others? I think it starts with us Africans. I think we believe food is for just sustenance, at least the longest time. And also we are now beginning to place value on what we have.

I think that's also another thing. So because for us it's just the fine dining or the dining culture is slowly growing. It wasn't there. For us it was more a home thing. So I believe that's why. But now it's very exciting to see a lot of chefs from Africa, you know, expressing themselves through food, sharing their culture, telling stories and adding

their own interpretation. So it's changing. Is it also about decolonizing what people expect to have on a table when they go to a restaurant? For me, it's very important to decolonize and the questions I was asking myself when I was in culinary school is why am I learning about food I didn't grow up eating? Why is it that I'm not talking about the ingredients I know or the food I know? Why do why do we have to serve things like apple pies in an African-owned restaurant. So I started asking myself these questions. And I believe food is a very important thing. It's powerful. And it's a universal language, but you can only place value on it or invite somebody to enjoy your food and also know

your culture, actually know your culture to food and that starts with you so a big part of it is to decolonize it fat matter i've really enjoyed speaking to you and i'm already looking at flights to ghana to come and come to your pop-up dine on a mat congratulations once again and thank you for speaking to me on woman's hour lots of you getting in touch lots of our audience getting in touch to share their own food stories. Norwegian poached salmon, one of you has got in touch to say,

with cucumber vinaigrette and a prawn dressing from my great-grandmother has been passed down. Our special sandwich filling, says someone else, says Julianne Ely in Cambridge.

Our special sandwich filling is cold baked beans. Hang on a minute. Cold baked beans mixed with chopped hard boiled eggs. Delicious, but so messy. I'll let you. I'm not going to try that one. I might try it.

Spiced up baked beans. Very good. My mother was Estonian and her family, Roselje. I don't know how to say that. Sorry. Recipe is still one of my favourite. Beetroot and potato salad with pickles and sour cream. That sounds delicious.

I've been known to eat a whole bowl in one go. And that's from Anne in Ellesmere Port. 84844 is the number to text. Next, what shape does a life take after fleeing a war? It's nearly five months since Russia invaded Ukraine. And as I talked to you this morning, thousands of families across the UK are trying to redefine their normal after being displaced by conflict

or oppression. Most recently, of course, we've watched as millions have left Ukraine. Many will be housed in temporary accommodation. Others will be living with host families. While safety and safety and the promise of a new home will bring comfort and relief, sharing a domestic space with strangers can bring its own challenges. If you then factor in cultural differences and linguistic barriers, things can become quite complicated to navigate for hosts and their guests. But as is so often the case in times of crisis, women are pulling together to help each other make a difference. Anastasia Skelton is a Ukrainian living in the UK who's currently volunteering as a coordinator in Canterbury, helping to match

refugees with host families. Also joining me is Kate Daniels, a family therapist and senior lecturer in clinical psychology at Christchurch University, who set up a project to equip host families with the emotional skills necessary to make the transition as easy as possible. Morning to both of you. Anastasia, I'm going to come to you first. Before I ask you about the work you're doing with refugees, can I ask how your family are doing back in Ukraine? Good morning. Thank you for asking. Actually, my family is doing all right. They're obviously stressed because daily sirens and journey to the basement became a part of their normal life. They're living in Western Ukraine, which is considered relatively safe because the most bombarding is happening the eastern Ukraine at the moment.

Yeah, but they are not willing to leave their house. They don't want to leave and they are OK to stay for now there. So you choosing to do this and to help refugees, is that way of you actually being able to do something? Yeah, when the war started, there was like inner feelings that I have to do something because otherwise I would just go crazy because, you know, you feel helpless. You don't understand how come that could happen in the 21st century.

So volunteering actually helped me just to keep myself in order and just keep functioning in day to day life. So tell me how the process works. You're on the frontline meeting refugees from Ukraine and matching them with people who've opened up their homes. So basically, it's all started from a few Ukrainians getting together in Canterbury and we started with sharing some leaflets on the street to share awareness of what is happening in Ukraine and British society. And when the scheme opened Home for Ukraine, we have decided that we have to become more helpful and practical.

So I was responsible for matching people. So we started getting requests from from English hosts that I want to host. I want to help. And I developed a little database with with sponsors and slowly Ukrainian people also started getting to know about the scheme and getting in touch with me. We have created a Facebook page, Canterbury for Ukraine, where they can find all the contact details. And I developed a little questionnaire for both sides, what helps me actually to understand if it's going to be a suitable match or not. After that, we are having video call all together.

I help to translate because most of Ukrainians speak English. And we see how it goes and try. Yeah, well, I think that's the key, what you just said, see how it goes, because, of course, in theory, it's one thing. And finding on paper, people might be a suitable match. But obviously, when you put people together, you have people fleeing a war-torn country, they're coming with emotional baggage.

What kind of situations have arisen that you hadn't accounted for? Where things might have broken down or, you know, where do the hiccups occur? Well, I always say it's like, you know, when like the moment when you are getting in touch and just stay in touch via chatting and video calls, it's like you know when like the moment when you are getting in touch and just stay in touch via chatting and video calls it's like dating but once you arrive to the uk and you start living with a host is like marriage you know living together and all the problems start to appear then and normally most of them is because of the language barrier and that people

use translators which do not translate properly sometimes. And little by little misunderstanding just come together and create a big issues for relationship breaking down. And mainly, I think also just because it's mainly mothers and children and all of the sudden they are in in foreign country they feel safe they feel supported but at the same time the life has changed so much they became a single parent all of the sudden something very difficult to cope with. So, yeah, lots of challenges, and we have them more and more. I'm going to bring Kate in now. Kate Daniels, as I mentioned, is a family therapist.

Now, Kate, there's obvious need for support here. What shape does that take? Tell me what you've come up with. Initially, my idea was that we created a register of family therapists to be available when there were difficulties. And then it occurred to me that actually what we could do was offer workshops for hosts, partly to bring them together to support each other, but also to help them think about the task they were embarking on and were involved in, and to think about what the implications would be and how they would manage these. So I think one of the feelings we got

was that people had huge amounts of goodwill and compassion, but that actually it would be very hard to run your home with guests simply on compassion and goodwill. You had to think about some of the ideas that we bring about boundaries and how you communicate with each other when language is so difficult and when cultural issues are around. So what are the basics then? And that's our stock in trade.

Yes. So what are the things? One of the basics that Anastasia and I have talked about is the idea of finding a way of being direct. Rhetorical styles are different in different countries, the way people speak. And so what people have found it very difficult to do, hosts, is be direct and say, this is the way our house works

this is these are if you like the house rules these are the boundaries this is when we like to have some time on our own and you have some time could you please for example a woman who found it very difficult to say to to her guests could the children please be in bed at or up in their rooms at a certain time? Because Anastasia and I were talking about it and the Ukrainian children go to bed a great deal later. So it's been helping them think about how to communicate. When you're aware that actually communicating these things is very hard for people when they know how distressed they are, when they know these people have come into their homes feeling very vulnerable and in distress.

So it's been helping with that a lot. Kate, I think you've just made a really good point there, Kate. I mean, Anastasia, because you mentioned the language barrier being one thing, but it's not just language, is it? It's culture. Culture. Culture married with language. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. And it's an extraordinary tribute, I have to say,

to the families who are doing this that they manage as well as they do. One of the things that's come up that I think is amazing and one of the things that we try in our work to encourage is that because people are different, who have different ways of doing things, there's not a right way or a wrong way, they're just different ways. And that's something that a lot of the hosts are different, who have different ways of doing things, there's not a right way or a wrong way. They're just different ways. And that's something that a lot of the hosts are noticing, observing, and really responding to and are aware of.

So childcare practices might be different, but it doesn't mean that just because we put our children to bed at seven, that that's the right way. So it's been an interesting... So these things are being negotiated all the time. And we're trying to help the hosts do that, negotiate right way. So it's been an interesting, so these things are being negotiated all the time. We're trying to help the hosts do that, negotiate these things. Anastasia, what have you found to be helpful,

sort of practical advice that you have been able to give people arriving here? I think the Kate just mentioned, yes, just trying to be as direct as you can because Ukrainian people are quite straightforward and English people, it Ukrainian people are quite straightforward. And English people, it's difficult to say no. They talk a lot, make rounds and rounds.

And especially if you use a translator, just make your sentence as short as possible, then the translation will be the most accurate. If you do lots of text, the sense might be missed. So this is the main suggestion, just to try to be as direct as possible, and it will make life much easier for both sides. And Kate, as the war rumbles on, the emotional needs and requirements of the refugees are likely to change because time will leave its mark.

How do we keep up with that? How do we keep adapting? Well, it's very hard, isn't it? Because one of the things we're trying to help hosts think about, how they help their guests reclaim their lives and their dignity. And when the guests don't know where they're going to next and one of the problems now is that for some of these um hosting arrangements they're almost they're coming up at the end of september end of october to a six month period and a lot of our um workshops the hosts are saying so what are we doing at the end with the how do we help these people leave when there is no government, broader public strategy in place for what's to happen? So that's one aspect.

How do you manage an ending when you're still sort of halfway and then you don't know what's going to happen? Another is as the arrangement changes, when people stop being so careful with each other, they do start having to communicate some differences more directly, as Anastasia said. And I think that's helpful. I think for your guests, I keep going back to that,

the idea of being direct and negotiating as best you can. But I really do think the ending's a big issue. And I really think people have to think at a government level about what's going to happen. Well, we have had a statement from the Department of Leveling Up. They've said, in response to Putin's barbaric invasion, we launched one of the biggest visa schemes in UK history, helping more than 95,000 Ukrainians find safety here in the UK.

We're thankful to sponsors who have generously welcomed people into their homes and we're aware that some may wish to continue supporting their guests beyond the initial six-month commitment. From day one, Ukrainians have had the right to work and to access benefits and public services, including education and healthcare, on the same footing as UK nationals. This will continue to be the case for those who wish to remain in the UK. Anastasia and Kate, thank you very much for joining me. 844 is the number to text if you'd like to get in touch with anything you are hearing on the show today.

And lots of you have been in touch with the opening item that we talked about with Harriet Harman about children being taken away from their mothers from the years 1949 to 76 someone here says I was adopted by two wonderful people I found my birth mother later in life and she didn't want to know how is that any any government's fault and someone else saying thank you for this item I'm thinking of my mum who died six years ago she was made to give up her baby boy when she was just 16 or 17

and was made to feel it should never be spoken of. I would like an apology from the government and I would like her mum and sisters to tell me how sorry they are that she was made to go through such a traumatic experience on her own. Now, on to my next guest. What does it mean to be a black person living in the county of Essex?

This is the question the artist Elsa James is trying to answer in her latest exhibition. She's lived in Essex for more than 20 years, but has always questioned her identity as a black woman in Essex. She's also a member of the feminist collective brilliantly called the Essex Girl Liberation Front, who are trying to counter the stereotype of the white stilettos,

fake tan and blonde hair image of an Essex girl. Her latest exhibition is called Othered in a Region that has been historically othered. And I'm delighted to say Elsa joins me in the studio. Welcome. First solo show. Massive congratulations. Thank you. Let's start by talking about the title What does Othered in a region that has been historically othered mean?

So, first of all, thank you for having me Our pleasure So the othering, there's two othereds in there There's othered in the present sense, the contemporary othering The othering that I feel, as you say, as a black woman in the present sense, the contemporary othering, the othering that I feel, as you say, as a black woman in the county, but historically othered, there have been, you know, there's the othering of Essex people that has been happening for decades and centuries.

So more recently, we all know the Essex girl stereotype, which, you know, came about in the kind of 80s around sort of following Simon Heffer's, the journalist who coined the term Essex man. But actually, I think there's been kind of parts of the Essex girl that's from the 80s that's kind of existed. I was aware of Essex girls white stilettos um sort of growing up in West London I was always aware of that but also still exists people you know you say the Essex girl I'm sure most people will think of something as soon as you say it this is the thing it's just so loaded Essex girls Essex man it's so loaded and what you know the perception of what people think you know that means um. But also it goes back further to women

back in the 16th and 17th century being othered. So the Essex witch trials, which many listeners might be aware of. But actually, you know, why were more women accused of witchcraft in the county of Essex more so than Surrey or any other part of England I know there are um the stories of you know quite uh a lot of uh women being accused of witchcraft in Scotland but Essex has got is you know it has kind of the most um so I was interested in that

I was interested in um well actually the a friend friend of mine, author friend of mine, Sid Moore, she's been kind of, she writes books. And she's been making this link between possibly the Essex, the Essex girl stereotype and the women who were other, you know, women and girls during the witch trials. And just thinking because, you know, you may have been other because you might have had a bit of agency because you knew how to yeah you stand up stand up for yourself yeah your husband you know you know you were widowed but you were strong and so on so sort of drawing a link between that but because of the work that i had done sort of previously previously back in 2018 working with kind of um archival documentation um I was kind of interested in thinking about, well, geographically, when you think about where Essex is on the map, near Harwich, you know, 16th century, 1645,

when Matthew Hopkins, the so-called Witchfinder General, who's kind of started this whole, you know, pointing his finger at women in Essex, people of African heritage were in England so I started thinking about this could there be a possibility that you know one of those women may have been you know of mixed heritage or black even just because I know historically people of African heritage were in England so those conversations I was thinking about. And it all started with you questioning your own place in Essex, didn't it? As a black woman and a black family.

Yeah, yes. Because you moved to Essex, you were born in London, then you've lived there for 20 years, but you've lived in two different bits. One which had a big Nigerian community, Thurrock. I know. And then you moved out to Southend and everything changed. Yes. So we moved to Thurrock in 1999.

I mean, that's a long time ago. And we were there until 2009. But by the time we left Thurrock to move to Southend, Thurrock, or Chapit 100, I should say, in Thurrock, was known as Little Lagos in Nigeria. Great. Huge Nigerian community. So again, this perception about Essex being, you know, people tend to think that Essex is very white because that's one of the things about Essex. But then moving to Southend, I was like, you know, this is the Southend,

this is the part of Essex that I was aware of growing up. It's actually, you know, my recollection with Southend from the 80s was that it was just you know it was the national front town um so so moving to Southend in 2009 uh 2008 2009 can't remember now um just really kind of made me think about okay I'm in I'm a black woman we are black family in this county yeah and we you know I know know that I'm probably, if I go to a supermarket, I'm aware that I'm the only person of colour there. And it was just more acute, the difference.

And then juxtaposing that with going into London or back into Chafford Hundred. So would you tell people you're from Essex? into London or back into Chafford 100. You know, yeah. So would you tell people you're from Essex? Well, here's the thing. I didn't. I was really embarrassed to say I was living in Essex. Like, I just didn't say it at all. Or I

would mutter under my breath, oh, we moved because of the schools and so on. But it wasn't until 2018 at a particular time, so a couple of things happened. I did a project that I actually called Forgotten Black Essex in the end because it was about two black women

that passed through Essex at different times. One was a woman called Hester Woodley. In 1741, she was some sugar planters in the Caribbean making lots of money through slavery and they bring this woman Hester Woodley to Harlow the reason why her story is in our National Archives is because when she died she got a headstone that was just very very a rare thing to do

yeah incredible yes so and I wanted so so I was working with a historian and you know there's story number one. But the other story was a woman who, and again, this is archival, this is in our national archives, who came to Southend in 1908 to enter a beauty pageant competition at the Curzel. And the reason why her story was plastered all over the newspapers at the time is because, well, you know, the journalists were like,

there's a black woman trying to enter a competition. And she literally caused a media frenzy. So I had these two stories that kind of resonated with me on the opposite ends of the spectrum. One was this kind of, you know, Princess Danube, as she called herself, you know, who just like... And it placed black women in Essex, in history. Yes, it does.

So I named the project Forgotten Black Essex. And I'm like, you know, these are stories that belong to Essex and we're not really, you know, just like the Essex Witch Trials, we should know about these. Absolutely. So thank goodness you're talking about it to me

and doing this exhibition. But back to your experience so you you mutter under your breath you're from Essex what about your daughters because they're born there right yeah are they Essex girls they do they claim it do they feel it you know it's good it's a good question do they claim I think I think they're with me so in in that they're with mum like so now i champion being an essex i coined the term black girl essex to just deal with the the take away the kind of the shame and the negative connotation but actually just to embrace it and to liberate it and also give yourself space in essex because take up the space yeah literally exactly that i very quickly want to ask you about this brilliantly named um i went to uh the liberation front the essex girl liberation front i want the t-shirts Literally exactly that. I very quickly want to ask you about this brilliantly named.

I went to the Liberation Front, the Essex Girl Liberation Front. I want the T-shirt. I want to join. I can set you up. Tell me about that. Yes. So the Essex Girl Liberation Front, it's a collective. There's sort of four core members. But actually, the aim is to just not only change the dictionary definition, which we were quite, well, we were successful in taking Essex Girl out of the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary in 2020. But actually it's about the perception.

And so part of the campaign is to wear a T-shirt that says, this is what an Essex Girl looks like. And we kind of started going to festivals and you'd come along, you'd put a T-shirt on, take a photograph. And the idea was to actually start embedding images of producers, you know, people who have a PhD, women that do all sorts of things. To then, if you Google Essex girls, you'd get an entourage of, you know, you and I in a T-shirt, you know, an Essex girl can be everything but the derogative dictionary definition, which says, you know, it's terrible. Yes, I think. Look it up.

Yes, I think most women want to be women in Essex want to move away from that stereotype. Elsa, keep doing the work. It's brilliant to talk to you. Thank you so much for coming in. And Elsa James' exhibition, Othered in a Region that has been historically othered, is now on at the Focal Points Gallery in Southend until the 18th of September. For anyone who is unable to join

the first launch of the exhibition due to the rail action boo, and a special viewing, that's not getting on the train boo, a special viewing of the exhibition with Elsa James will take place on the 23rd of July from 6pm to

8pm and everyone is welcome. That's it for me. Enjoy the weekend. Stay hydrated. It's going to be a hot one. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm Andy Oliver and I'd like to tell you all about my Radio 4 series, One Dish. It's all about why you love that one dish, the one that you could eat over and over again without ever getting tired of it. Each week, a very special guest will bring their favourite food to my table and we'll be unpacking the history of it. And food psychologist, Kimberley Wilson is on hand to talk us through the science bit. What food reminds you of your child? What's your favourite place to go for dinner?

What do you have for Sunday lunch? What's your favourite dessert? Do you say plantain or plantain? What food would you take with you to a desert island? What's your favourite type of chilli oil? What do you have for breakfast? What's the best pasta shake? So if you're the sort of person who's already planning

what you're having for lunch while you're eating breakfast, then this podcast is going to be right up your street. That's One Dish with me, Andy Oliver. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.