Woman's Hour - As we mark our 75th anniversary, how do you feel about equality in 2021? Your chance to have your say

Episode Date: October 11, 2021

To mark our 75th anniversary last week we commissioned a poll to explore how you feel about equality in 2021 and how much progress you believe women have made since the first episode of Woman’s Hour was broadcast in 1949 Over two thirds of the women we spoke to said it was down to experiences of sexual exploitation and abuse while three while three quarters put it down to inequality within their homes because of the unfair division of housework..What your reality? At the heart of our Poll the gap between the equality the law says we should have as women and the reality of our lives.How's your life compare to that of your mother or grand mother? How do you think we can achieve equality both in the home and in the workplace...What would help? Is more flexibility in the workplace and the same rewards as your male colleagues the answer. Or is the lack of childcare or help with older relatives that you care for the thing that's holding you back? What change or changes would you most like to see over the next 75 years?Lines are open at 8am on Monday morning. Text us on 84844 . On social media it’s @BBCwomanshour or you can email us via our website .Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's special programme. I hope you had a decent weekend, whatever you got up to. Maybe enjoying the unseasonably warm weather in many parts of the country. And there you go. I'm already breaking one of the golden rules of radio. Never talk about the weather as someone somewhere has had the exact opposite experience. While talking of radio or rather talking on the radio, regular listeners will hopefully know

by now just how fond, how incredibly keen I am to hear from you throughout the programme and your answers to my questions, whatever the day's agenda has thrown up, often via text message, social media or email. Well, today I would love to actually hear your voice on the radio in conversation with me because it may be Monday, but let's kick off the week together with a big old phone-in programme here on Woman's Hour. The question, how equal do you feel in our society at work, at home, out on the street, in any other context you choose to talk about? Because you may remember that for our 75th anniversary, which we celebrated last Thursday, definitely catch up on that programme. If you get a moment on BBC Sounds, it's all there. I'm still getting so many messages, the programmers as well,

regarding the conversation I had the pleasure of having with Diana Gayford, the 104-year-old producer who worked on the very first programme. But to mark that anniversary, we commissioned a poll to explore how women feel about equality in 2021, how much progress you think we've made in the last 75 years and what is still left to achieve. The poll showed, to remind you of a few of the headlines, that the place that women feel most unequal is the home, closely followed by the workplace in terms of pay. 70% of women say they feel pay and benefits are still not equal, closely followed by how women feel violence curbs their chance at full equality. Almost 70% of women feel they do not have full equality due to experiences of sexual exploitation and abuse. Today, I want to hear from you, live, in the moment, wherever you are, whatever you're doing. If you're able to get in touch, please do so. How equal do you feel at work, at home, out and about, with friends, with family, on your own, what needs to change? Perhaps as part of that

reflection, you might be mulling how your life is different to your mother, to your grandmothers. If you've never called a radio programme before, give it a go. Go on. I dare you. 03700 100 444. That is the number you need. I'll say it again. 0300 100 444. Standard geographic charges from landlines and mobiles will apply, I should say at this point. But that is the number you need to call me. Already we've had the phone lines open for a couple of hours. Some of you have done that. Thank you very much. I'm coming to you very shortly. But just to say another point that came up again and again on last week's anniversary programme, especially not least with having Baroness Hale on, Lady Hale, of course, the first woman to be in charge of the Supreme Court, most senior judge in the land. The law enshrines

equality in most areas, but the chasm between what we're meant to have legally as women and what it ends up feeling like and being like, more to the point, in real life. That chasm is what so many of you have been getting in touch with, that gap that we experience every day. So how is it for you? I mean, maybe you don't feel that. Maybe you don't feel that at all. Maybe you're in a completely different place to where you thought you might be. Or maybe something's changed. And what's that thing that's changed that's perhaps given you a different vantage point? 03-700-100-444. Excuse me, quadruple, treble four.

I'm going to give you the wrong number there. Local rates apply. I should say you can still text me if you leave your number, if you're happy to be called back, we'll do so. You can text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged to your standard message rate. And of course, we're still available on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. But without further ado, to our first caller, let me say good morning to Wendy, who's in Dorset. Hello, Wendy.

Hello. It's lovely to talk to you. Thank you for coming on. I know you wanted to talk broadly, but also a bit about money. Where are you coming at this from? Well, I'm now 77 years old, so I cover almost the whole span of your era. And in the very beginning, there was huge inequality with women and money. And whilst things have improved quite a lot and women have fought very hard for that, I still feel quite strongly that we're not there and i'm not just talking about in the workplace i'm talking about in the

home as well what what's your what's your experience in terms of that well if i start at the very beginning my experience is when i left school i joined the women's air force in the early 60s I was paid five pounds 12 shillings a week for plotting aerial photography my colleague a male I was sat next to doing exactly the same job working the same hours was paid 12 pounds a week well things did move on eventually from there I then excuse me I then my husband and I had a pub. I had no idea what was going on financially in the pub. I wasn't without. But I did all the domestic life as well, you know, looking after my children as well as working quite hard in the pub. He was able to go and do other things, you know, because he was in control of the money for example socially and then eventually um uh you know i i got into teaching and again it was excellent because the

women there in teaching really did fight for equal pay but we were still behind the men but in the house was still running the household and my my experience with older women, I have to talk about older women because obviously it's my age group, is that because we didn't have that personal pension or working pension, many of us, we're beholding either to a spouse or the state. And part of the problem with that is because we ran the household, we stayed at home and looked after the kids and weren't able to ever catch up. Or even when you were working, as you just described, you would also be doing the shift at home. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And it makes me mad when

people say to me, oh, my husband will do the cooking. And I think, whoopie doo. What about the rest of it? You know, there's a lot of mundane tasks going on in the household. And it's not until the woman collapses that often the men realise just how much they've done. But even then, they won't, you know, pick up the baton. Well, just on the pension point, I was going to say, you know, only recently we found out that, you know, there's thousands of people owed, thousands, because of errors. Yes, and that's a government thing.

I mean, this is somebody who we rely on, somebody who we respect, maybe, and that we're going to get a pension from. And so if they're letting us down at that level, I just shudder to think what's going on way down the ladder in company pensions and the like. Well, I found it fascinating last week. I don't know if you did hear our anniversary programme, but when we had Lady Hale on, right at the end of the interview, did you hear this bit? She said, just for those who didn't, but she said, you know, she was very recently and very sadly widowed.

And she herself was struggling to understand why her pension had suddenly gone down and she was going to need to get to grips with it. You know, now she's obviously in a different stage of her life, not working as a judge. I found it very reassuring to hear someone who'd been a judge was also struggling, also worrying, of course, but very reassuring in another sense. Yes, and that's exactly my point. We're talking about 75 years and inequality. I'm talking about from the 1960s when i first started working and um i think when i got divorced the first time i can't remember when it was maybe in the 90s and i just happened to read an article in the paper that said unless women ought to be aware because they didn't work in those formative years with their children that they could do a

top-up fund so i got in touch um with the agency the um and and they said yes you can do that and i paid a few hundred pounds so that i could get a better state pension but there wasn't a lot of advertising about that no and of course what makes me angry is that women now, they're sort of beholden to their men who did work all their lives, who did get these private company pensions, who've got their state pensions and everything else and maybe I don't know, investments

or whatever one did and they have an allowance a housekeeping allowance and if they want more money they've almost got to ask their husbands for some more money for a top up. Do you they want more money, they've almost got to ask their husbands for some more money for a top-up. Do you have hope, Wendy? I know, is it right, you've got a couple of adult daughters?

Yes, I do have hope with my daughters. I have left no stone unturned where they're concerned as to what the future holds financially. And they've both done extremely well. But I see them still struggling with domesticity versus work. Really? Yes, that was a theme in what we saw in this poll as well, which is obviously just a snapshot. But today we're hoping, as you've very kindly done, to hear from people and see how it is in their lives and perhaps their families as well. Wendy, lovely to talk to you. All the best. Thank you very much for getting in touch.

We've got a message here from Anna on something which some of you may be able to relate to. Something completely different, I should say. Well, in 1970, I came downstairs wearing my new mini skirt or pelmet, as my father called it, fresh from the sewing machine. My mother, who was in the hallway with my grandma,

said, you are not going out in that. My grandma said, well, when i was your age we flappers wore skirts just like that dear of course she can go out like it some things haven't changed that much anna thank you very much for that message uh michelle thinking about how things have changed for her grandmother through to her my grandmother said she says here had five children which she managed on her own throughout the war and beyond my grandfather was almost completely absent during their upbringing. My grandfather went to fight in World War II,

and when he returned, he was never well enough to work again. There was very little money. My mum left school at 15 without any qualifications to work in the local tights factory, and by 23, she was married with two children. My father loved being with us all as a family, but it was still unclear that my mum... But it was still clear, excuse me, that my mum cooked the meals and did the domestics.

50 years on, I can't believe she still does this. Despite or maybe as a result of my parents' background, they both encouraged me to get an education. I did O-levels, A-levels, went to London and Birmingham University, and that has changed mine and my children's life for sure. After university, I embarked on a career in pharmaceutical research and development, and I now manage a large global team of scientists, and we are financially very comfortable. My girls have had the opportunity of the best education money can buy. University and thereafter a career is theirs and mine expectation for a fulfilled life. What one item I would like to improve for my two girls, now 18 and 21, for them to feel safe walking the streets, for them not to have to call me, even if they're walking a few hundred yards at 7pm. do tell me when you're home tell me when you're home and it's always the way i've got so many of those messages you know my phone only from this weekend and yes staying on the phone people have different views about whether that makes you feel safer is actually safer or you can get your phone

snatched but it's part of the ritual of walking for so many women let me go to sue who's in hampshire good morning sue good morning lovely to have you on what did you want to say as part of this chat about equality? I want to say that in my 71 years, things have changed. And I think it's dependent on your role model, mutual support and education. And yes, growing up, you know, it was quite, you know, very much mummy was at home and doing the domestic stuff and dad was at home and doing the domestic stuff and dad was at work and so on but through education and believing in yourself uh you can actually reach whatever

you want to do i started off as a nurse in london but i wanted to do more than that i had very good role models in nursing and then went off to become a psychologist and I had the wonderful support of my aunt my uncle friends around me to become that and also it's about mutual support my my husband was a medical student when I met him hadn't qualified and so with my ability to save money I got us through that difficult time for both of us. And the important thing is, especially now, is to educate our girls,

really from very young, that they can do what they want, that they're not inferior. And we can do that through all sorts of aspects of education, right from five, or if not the four. And we need to do that. education is so important although we do see don't we and and you know cannot deny that and it's a very strong theme

coming through sue from lots of people who are getting in touch and please do keep doing so if you want to join in oh three seven hundred one hundred treble four uh is that you can have all that education but this theme of what happens when perhaps if you do want to have a family, what then happens at that point and some of the inequalities that can set in against you or against yourself or your circumstances, that's where the rub can be. What's your take on that? Well, when you do want a family, so when I wanted a family,

and I've got two very great children uh you have to put things in place now i know i was very um um what's the word very uh fortunate perhaps in in how you could do that or i was very fortunate because when i had my family i was able to employ somebody to come and look after them so when I went to university I had somebody who would pick them up from school and take them home and so on and so forth so there is a there is a split between people who can do that and people who can't do that and I feel very much that we need to have more help for people who can't have that help, to give them equality. And we can do that, I hope, through politics. But I think we need to give everybody, those people who can't afford to have help, we need to give them that help.

Otherwise, this feeling of being inadequate, unequal with men will continue. It was one of the first messages, Sue, we received last week from someone talking about universal childcare or some element of that and rethinking how that will work. Sue, thank you for getting in touch. Great to have you on. Let me go now to Hilary, who I believe is in Bristol. Good morning, Hilary. Good morning. Where are you coming at this from? What was the thing that came to mind when I asked about equality and the state of it? Well, I was thinking particularly of older women,

because you did rightly talk a lot about childcare, which is absolutely crucial. But I think we're not paying enough attention to the kind of support for carers, whether paid or unpaid, when they're in their 50s and 60s. I think there's two reasons for that, why it's become much more urgent, is that we've now raised the state pension age for women to 66. Now, between the ages of 50 and mid-60s, one in four women have caring responsibilities. And for some of them, in order to stay in paid employment, they need some respite care themselves, but they also need caring services so that they can be away from home and taking paid employment, just like mothers need childcare. But we don't talk about caring services in that kind of way. No, and I think that the focus, as you say, is... I mean, do you think it's got any better?

I was just thinking about our own agenda and the news agenda, I should say, the programme that we try and put together every day, thinking about the different things. Do you think COVID has helped that shine a light a little bit better or not? Well, it's shone a little bit of light, but the people who were at home caring and shielding older people or younger people sometimes who needed support got very little attention. There was no, well, there wasn't much attention paid

to domiciliary care workers who would be visiting them. So you had a situation where some people at home needing care wouldn't let somebody in without PPE because they were frightened. And we know that domiciliary care workers got even less attention initially for the need for PPE than residential care workers, for example. So there's a sort of hierarchy. Residential care doesn't get enough attention, but it gets more attention than domiciliary care,

and the unpaid carers hardly get any attention at all. And is my understanding, have you looked at this in terms of your job and how things could potentially change? Have you got views on what we need to do? Well, I think one of the things we need to do when it comes to something like pension age is that um men or women um who have got caring responsibilities or their own health isn't very good ought to be able to retire earlier you know just fixing it rigidly to a chronological age, it seems to me to be quite wrong. So I think the other bit of the context which is important

is that although we talk a lot about life expectancies and how these are changing, but healthy life expectancies show enormous inequality so that women and men who live in the poorest parts of the country will have 20 years less lower healthy life expectancies than those living in wealthy parts of the country. So when you're asking them to go back to work or stay in employment until they're 66, you've almost doubled, instead of 60, you've almost doubled the length of time people who we're expecting to stay in paid employment, as well as their responsibilities for caring for others. And we don't do that. We don't even talk about it much. Well, thank you for bringing it up. And we will try to talk about it more, perhaps in that way that you've suggested as well, and that lens, and not being as rigid as perhaps it's been in terms of the way that we look at it both

politically and also talk about it as a society. Very good to talk to you, Hilary, there in Bristol. Let me come to some of these messages and I'll come back to your calls. Mary in Leicestershire, good morning to you. Well, we know that women are more than equal. Enough said, three exclamation points at the end of that. Kelly in Newport in South Wales, who says, been an avid listener for the past four years. Good to hear. I'm from a council estate, a widening access area. It's where I am. I've worked through various routes, got my dream job at the University of South Wales as a lecturer in youth and community work. I feel grateful every day for the opportunities afforded to me. My mother, my grandmother, my family, my friends, they've all helped and my sheer determination to

achieve for myself and help others achieve their wishes and desires. In terms of feeling equal to men, for me, it's as much about class as gender. Boys from my estate face complex barriers. Sam Fender's music explains some of this poetically. I feel equal to upper working class males. I do not feel equal to middle class males. Message there from Kelly. Thank you for that. Another one here, just come in, which talks about equality.

Chris says, women who want to be equal to men lack ambition. And another one here, boys need to be shown an alternative to the media slash cultural gender stereotypes. Assertive females regarded negatively compared to men who benefit from assumed authority. The media needs to change.

Look at the sports pages in any newspaper or online, for example. Very rare to see regular and quality coverage of women's sport, let alone science and engineering. That's from Mrs D.A. Point on Twitter. Keep your messages coming in. Let me go to Marietta, who's got in touch with us. Good morning. Good morning. What did you want to say on this? Well, I was struck by your question when you when you posed it, saying, how did you feel? Now, of course, I know that there's a lot

of inequality in every area of life. But how I felt was very different about it, because I was raised in a family with a sister, and my parents both made us feel that anything was possible. It was never a question of gender whatsoever. It was only a question of becoming who you could best become. And later, I went to a Steiner-Waldorf school, which is a co-ed school, and there the same message was very, very clear that men and women each have their individual capacities and they did their best to develop these. College of Law in London in a class with two women and 60 men. But the extraordinary thing when I reflect back on that now is I never felt unequal. It didn't bother me the slightest bit because I felt I can step up and do what I want to do, even within that environment. And that has helped me enormously. Later on, when I no longer was a lawyer but started my own business as a management consultant, I was able to earn every bit as much as all my male colleagues, if not perhaps even more.

So although I know it's about, I think my education and the attitude that my parents gave me has given me such a fundamental foundation to stand in life for who I am and enjoy really enjoy being a woman a wife a mother and a competent professional as competent as anybody else that I make it within my environment well it's great to hear that and I think it's a theme a little bit coming through on the idea of if you're made to feel a certain way, regardless of what the reality is, it can insulate you. Marietta, thank you very much for getting in touch. I'm just going to read a couple of messages as well that's come through as you were just saying that with regards to family life as well. This is from Tristan who's listening. Good morning. I'm a stay at home father while my wife has returned to work full-time in our mid-30s. We're both teachers and decided it was the best option for us.

I do all the domestic chores and enjoy being at home with the children. Oddly, my wife receives very judgmental comments from other women and society doesn't seem supportive of our decision. Indeed, it is sad there aren't more stay-at-home dads. Also, my wife hears comments that I would never hear, such as, do you feel you miss out? Hopefully, these societal roles will change for our children. We have a boy and a girl, especially with us as role models. Tristan, you pick up on a point there. I mean, we picked up on the point about class and who you might feel equal to at what level, if you like, of society, depending on if you view it like that, but also how women can be to other women. Let's never forget some of those experiences. And I'm sure more of those will come

through, but you've reflected it in some of what your wife hears. And Claire's got in touch on email again to say, no one ever asks whether a woman might actually want to stay at home and look after their children. This is a privilege and joint decision by a couple and can be equal. Earning money does not necessarily give women equal status in the home. We view staying at home with children as worthless society, she's saying, when in reality, it is the most important job. From Claire, good morning to you. Thank you very much for getting in touch. Let me get Lucy on. Good morning, Lucy, in London. Good morning. Morning. Hi. Thanks for getting in in touch what did you feel moved to say on this well i just want i think it is very much

about um the attitudes that you're sold and uh i was one of four girls brought up by a very traditional um upbringing where my father was um i suppose the head of the family and as the only man, you know, we were all reverential to him. But he completely preferred to my mother in that his respect for her was such that he was, it was very much sold to us that she was the queen bee and that nothing would happen without her. And he was so adoring and respectful to her. But I remember at school we had to write an essay about what I want to be when I grow up. There was never any question that we couldn't be anything that we didn't want to be. We could be anything.

And one of my sisters actually is an incredibly high flyer in a sort of modern sense um and well known but um for me i remember writing that that i wanted to be a wife and mother and even then people were absolutely astonished um and i couldn't understand why and i couldn't understand why now and i have been a wife and mother and i actually i was just thinking actually i i have also got a business, but that's not the way I define myself. The things that I will, on my deathbed, feel happy about is that I've been a wife and mother in a traditional way.

And I've absolutely loved every single second of that, and I feel incredibly privileged to have been able to do what I always wanted to do. And to that point, I was going to say Lucy, if I may, but to that point of the judgment that then comes in, I suppose if you do prioritise that,

not necessarily prioritise it, I suppose hold that up as the greatest achievement, which is what we were just hearing from some of those messages. Have you come across that? No, I think, I sometimes think people sometimes i think people so they say to me you know if you meet someone new they say what do you do

and uh a bit waffly um and i say that the main thing i do is you know i'm at home most of the time or i'm doing something for my family and sometimes i can feel them sort of think oh god she's one of those and I'm afraid nowadays I sit there and I let a little smug feeling come over me and I think because I can feel that little smear and I I just don't mind because I feel well I know something you don't know and uh I do I think I think it's just so sad that people feel that they have to be so defined by their career and their, you know, my husband is very, very respectful and kind. And I am to him. And we all have our little place. We don't discuss it. And my children, I hope that they know that they can absolutely be whatever they want to do. And I hope that I will be a grandmother

who will really support them with their children and things so that they can do whatever they want to do. There'll be some very tired... I was going to say there'll be some very tired grandparents also listening and thinking, I don't think I ever signed up for this much. And it will take us back to the childcare situation and how unaffordable it is for so many,

whilst they'll also be greatly enjoying it. Lucy, I've really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you for getting in touch this morning. Let me hand over to Dawn, who's in Luton. Good morning, Dawn. Good morning. Good to talk to you as well. Where do you come in on this? What do you want to say? I want to go to the housework thing and the sharing domestic chores kind of discussion that's been going on this morning. Go on. We are both retired, my husband and I. We're in our early 60s.

And we've both been listening with mouths open this morning, really. I grew up in the 1960s. I was a child of the 1960s when roles were still very traditional. However, I didn't grow up in a traditional household. My father, who was quite an old father, my parents were 38 when they had me, could do every domestic chore and did them. So he could cook, clean, iron, wash, sew, and did all those things alongside my mother because of his upbringing. And so I wanted to say that I think sometimes it's about our expectations. So when I got married, my expectation was that my husband would take equal responsibility for domestic chores.

And I've been married 44 years. And and in that time I haven't cooked a single Christmas dinner I don't cook Sunday lunches when I broke my leg last year my husband did everything for two months because I was incapacitated and I didn't find that remarkable because that's what we've always done all our married lives. I have two adult children, a girl and a boy. My daughter now expects her husband to behave in a similar manner to help with childcare, to help with anything around the house. And my son likewise pitches in and helps with his children. So Dawn, what do you say to those women who, there'll be many who do not have any of what

you're discussing because either they weren't brought up with it or they're in a situation where the person they're with wasn't brought up with it and doesn't do what they are hoping they will do. I feel terribly sorry for them and I just want to empower younger women I think, like

my daughter, who grew up with a different model of how to do it, to say, it doesn't have to be like it was when you were younger at home. It can be different. What do you say, though, about those women? And again, you know, I'm a fan of uncomfortable truths. And I've been talking to lots of people in the run up to this research and also about having this conversation today who gatekeep. So there are those women who don't think the washing, just to put it to this, is as done well if they do not do it. There are those people who do not think, you know, the dishwasher is loaded as it should be, so they better do it. But they'll also then sigh and complain because they do a lot more.

Yes. And I think you have to accept that we all have we all have our own ways of doing things um my husband's perfectly capable of doing the washing whether he does it to my standard or not it's done it's clean it do you know what i mean it doesn't have to be to this exacting standard all the time actually he probably does a better job than me in a lot of areas, including cooking. But that's not the point. The point is we can't have that. That's almost like a double standard. Well, my husband doesn't help me, but I don't let him help me because he doesn't do it well enough.

And I think some men use that as a ploy as well. I have seen it used as a ploy where men deliberately don't do a good enough job so they're not asked to do something again and that lets them off the hook and i i i just think that um women have to be okay with men having a go sometimes yes and not gatekeeping and make it harder then for themselves. Well, no, because it might not be to your standard, but is it good enough? We have this thing, don't we, called the good enough parent. We should not expect everybody to be the perfect parent.

As long as we meet the good enough standard that we meet our children's needs, that's OK. Is it not the same for spouses? Can we not be a good enough spouse, certainly in the domestic area? We don't have to be perfect. Dawn, thank you very much for that. A lot of people, I'm sure, will be nodding along, listening, taking note or hoping they could take note and make the changes. 03700 is the number you need. 03700 100 444. That is the number in full that you need to get in touch. You can text as normal on 84844. But the number to call, it's a special

programme today to reflect. And if you're just joining us on what equality means to you, where do you think we're at? The programme, Woman's Hour, is 75 years old. It turned that last Thursday. We had a special programme to mark that. We commissioned a poll to ask how you feel and where you feel equal in your life. Do you feel unequal perhaps at work, but equal in your home the other way around? What does that word equality mean to you? How far have we come, do you think, in the last 75 years? And what more do you think needs to be achieved? 03700100444. That is the number you need to call. Heidi is on the line. Good morning, Heidi. Good morning. Hello. Hello. Tell me about what you think of when I say the word equality or the situation you're in. I used to think that we had come a long way. And actually,

the things that have happened to me in the last few years have highlighted the fact that there's a long way to go. I am a fairly recently single parent to four children. I made big economic sacrifices in order to have those children in my marriage, which I know has been talked about this morning, because four children required a lot of care. And my husband, my ex-husband traveled a lot with work, so they needed to be a parent at home. And what I wanted to raise was what then happens when that marriage ends and the lack of protection that there is for the women and children that that happens with, happens to,

sorry, the lack of power. In my situation, my ex-husband has moved so far away that he can't play a 50-50 co-parenting role. I wasn't consulted on that. That just happened without me agreeing to raise the children on my own. So he now sees them twice a month, and that's not consistent either. He will often cancel or not show up. But it's also the financial side of it because he was the main breadwinner, and he has been able to largely walk away from that responsibility. I've got the child maintenance agency involved, and my experience hasn't been positive there. Again, this is just my

experience for purpose really um and so so many women in my situation are left you know you've had children with a partner you're now raising them alone and you're having to step into a financial void that is a bit impossible to plug and there's very little support out there. Are you able to work at all? I'm a Pilates instructor and so I worked a little bit when we were still married but it wasn't a full time income and it's hard to make it that. Yes. And now as a single

parent. I love it, it's wonderful but it's hard to make it be what it needs to be to support five people. So would you say, and I have to say this is not your exact situation, but again, a bit of a theme, but it's when something happens, I suppose, in your life, you can be going along thinking we have equality or largely so and we're in much better places,

women, as our mother, you know, beyond our mothers and our grandmothers. But then something happens which changes that. I've got a few messages here saying, you know, I feel a bit mis-souled now. And it often seems to be centering again around caring duties. Yeah, and it's the powerlessness when that happens, I think. And I don't understand where the lack of messaging that's happened here. So I will say to my children, I've got two boys and two girls, and I will say to my children, the day you commit to having a child with

somebody you have 50 50 responsibility for that child from that day and I don't understand the lack of messaging that seems to have happened where some men and I don't want to I don't want to paint a bush of that because I know plenty of men who have chosen the exact opposite of this but where they think that's optional and there's a chance to step you know they have the the option to step away from that and then the women are left i just thought we'd moved on from that and i think it's been very very disappointing um to realize that we in some cases we haven't and what do you then do you know why why are those parents that choose to do that male or female let's be fair why are they then not penalized for that why why do the children have to suffer in such an

extreme way for the choice that a parent's made i just it's been quite a sobering experience i bet and one of powerlessness extreme powerlessness well thank you for feeling like you could share that on the radio this morning and talk to us and talk to all of our listeners because you definitely will not be alone with that and i certainly hope you've got some people around you Heidi who can help help you and prop you up at this time thank you for getting in touch that's Heidi there again if you've got a situation that you feel you can share 0370010044 a few messages just in and around this and around care Lucy I'm 35 I was raised to believe and know I'm equal to a man, but I never once felt there was something I couldn't do. I'm well educated to master's level.

I worked tirelessly to build a creative career, which led me to a successful position in one of the country's leading art schools. Then I had children. I thought I'd be pregnant for nine months, be off work for a year and then go back full time. No, our first baby, Ruben, died at eight months gestation for no known cause. Then we had a living daughter who's thankfully now two. We've since had another son who's six weeks old and having had our children, it is the greatest joy and privilege of my life. But I feel missold. I was raised to believe I could do it all, work full time,

raise my children in a way I feel most comfortable with and feel comfortable with. I cannot. Having been fully wedded to work, I now want to be with our living children, but that means I have to partially or fully let go of my career. Our daughter went to nursery full-time from one so I could go back to work full-time, but it never felt right in my heart. I felt torn. I don't want to do this again with our living son and I'm therefore looking to reshape what work is to me. Messages there with the woman with the single parent. Yes. And also the caller before that who was talking about how wonderful education and careers poor, and particularly women with learning disability, then you cannot have it all. And I say that because if you are a woman with learning disability, you are assessed by the social care authority, local authority, and your benefits are cut so when it comes to are you housed you

are housed in usually one of the poorest bits of the borough so for example not Highgate but Tottenham or Woodgreen that's my local area then when you're housed in the poorest area, you are suffering from all the problems of poverty, social injustice, the problem being having a learning disability. The social worker will come around. Tina, I'm terribly sorry to interrupt. Your line is dropping. Tina, I wouldn't normally interrupt, but your line is dropping in and out there. And we're struggling to hear what you have to say. If we can fix that line, we will

come back to you. But your point there, I think you wanted to make there around, and what we got a lot of it was around social injustice and how equality overall cannot get where it needs to if we do not tackle the poverty side of it. A very important point to be made and one that hasn't been made quite in that way. But I'm very sorry the lines let us down there A very important point to be made and one that hasn't been made quite in that way. But I'm very sorry the lines let us down there. Let me go to Amanda, who's in Wiltshire. Good morning, Amanda. Good morning. I believe you want to talk about the violence element here, which of course is a major part of the response we got when talking to women for our poll. I do. Thank you for having me on the show and some amazing comments from women today

and the social injustice and the system that is backing up violence against women is it is exactly what I wanted to speak to you about my mother was abused for five years she had a massive stroke that left her unable to communicate without mental capacity unable to walk unable to use her right arm left arm weak she couldn't do anything for herself she needed support all of the time most of those carers and i'm talking about um that she was in a private house um her her legal landlord had managed to get an illegal power of attorney over my mother's life behind our back. It was removed in the Court of Protection three years later, but the damage was done. The damage was done between us, four daughters, and all of that system that we rely on.

And a lot of people have commented on how, you you know we should be able to look to this system to uphold good things yes we have a number of upheld complaints against police officers in the area which i live i don't know i'm allowed to say i think i think we'll just why don't we leave that um because no one's here to respond but yes i suppose i suppose the bigger point i can see you're going towards which i'm very interested in is i keep to keep going with is around the systems that operate around us yes and of most of the decision makers even if they are women there is a man in the background i've looked at the panels on these systems certainly in local authorities most of the people on the panels are men. Most of them who have to hold

these people accountable are men. There is no equality. My mother was abused terribly. And if you would allow me, I will read you just three tiny lines from one report. You know, Amanda, because I don't have the details of it, and I'm not doubting anything about what you're going to say, I'd rather that you didn't, just if you don't mind. Because I suppose what we're trying to get today is a sense of people's experience, but then also the point we can take from it. So forgive me if we don't do that. But I suppose in the last few weeks, we have, of course, been discussing the Met Police in particular

around situations that have arisen there and the concern. There's now two separate investigations or reviews going into that particular police force and one across the country that the Home Secretary announced, the concern that there is a sexism at the core of policing, which we heard from a police officer last week about that. Yes. I mean, I've dealt a lot with the police and the IOPCC regarding two different matters. One was sexual abuse against children where I was a long time ago a witness in a

courtroom where a person got 21 years for abuse of children. The police had ignored the public, the police had ignored the victims for a long time. When it got to our mother, same police force, same problems. Absolutely same problems. They did

not want to know. Like I said, we had eight upheld complaints, but not one officer was ever, ever held accountable. And this is the problem, is that people in these systems are not being held accountable. Well, I mean, again, you could argue,

Amanda, I'm just going to let you go on that point, but it's a very bigger point made that a lot of people could be'm just going to let you go on that point, but it's a very bigger point made that a lot of people could be able to relate to in different ways. Of course, I also know we have a lot of police officers serving and retired who listen to the programme and have heard from a lot of you over the last few weeks in particular,

who would say, you know, do not paint us all in such a light. But there is, as I say, major reviews going on into the systems around accountability. And some of you may also argue accountability is what's needed. It's not necessarily an issue of sexism and about men running it. But some of you will have a completely different take on that.

And also there's a lot of evidence around certain elements of that, too, which we've explored on the programme previously. And I know we will do again. Mary, who's got in touch. Good morning. She's in Bromsgrove. What would you like to say about this as we look at equality and where women are with this? Well, I think I must have been married to the best man in the world because I've heard nothing like him. We had a wonderful marriage. He died three months ago. Can't talk about it because I'm still crying.

But it was wonderful. I was one of the eight children the eldest girl so when I had my children it never occurred to me I couldn't look after a baby or whatever I think after I was married my mother was still having children and I don't think she ever felt she wasn't looked after my husband went my father went to work every day

and looked after us and we had a home full of laughter and I've listened to women die now oh years and looked after us, and we had a home full of laughter. And I've listened to women now now for, oh, years. And my husband used to listen with me, and he used to call Jenny, Jenny, what about the women, Murray? And so we always called her that, but she was brilliant. And I must say, you're doing extremely well.

You're so frosty and good at arguing. You're great. Oh, Mary, you're a very kind woman. If I may say, I'm not going to draw you upon it because I don't want to make you upset, but I am very sorry for your loss and he sounds like the most wonderful man. Nearly 50 years and the most beautiful man. The children used to say,

you know, I think you love Daddy more than you love us. And I said, no, I love you on the same. We were happy. And they were looking for husbands that were similar. And they're both career girls, as I say, bank manager and recruitment. Well, Mary, I've got a message here from Jan that I think you'll be interested to hear.

She says, I wanted to say how absolutely horrified I was when my intelligent daughter, who's a primary school teacher and has three young daughters herself, commented, all I hope for my girls is that they meet a very wealthy man and never have to work. What despair could have driven her to feel this after what so many women have fought for over the last century? I know we run public houses together.

We were managers. So we brought our children up, but we were always there there we sat down and had a meal with them every day because pubs weren't open all day then we were both taxi drivers together that's one of the best jobs i've ever had in my life i worked in the car trade for a time as a rep you know love people and i think women bleed a bit too much at times. There you go. Well, if you want to call it bleating or getting it off their chest

or however they want to do it today, I'm all ears. Thank you very much, Mary, for getting in touch. 03 700 100 444. We've only got about 10 minutes or so left. Sue in Cambridge, good morning.

Good morning. What would you want to say on this? Well, I wanted to say something about possibly that things aren't always what they seem in houses. But HTC, Huntington District Council,

Cambridge County Council and our local council are all top heavy with men. I don't think we're equal but on the other hand my sons i've two sons and i had three children and i was a traditional wife because that's what my mother did um although i've had a fantastic husband and he'll do anything if you ask um but my eldest son works in a very high-price job he doesn't get home till seven o'clock and he rings me most nights after his day shift um he is saying i said oh are you okay so

yes i'm just going to the shop to get some food now because his wife's at home with the baby. It's not what he expects. He doesn't expect anything. And he washes, cooks, cleans, irons. But I find it quite shocking that he's coming home after working all day. She's at home with the baby, who's eight months old. And there's no food on the table. And he has to then stop and go out and get ingredients and stand there and no food on the table and he has to then stop and go out and get ingredients and stand there and make food I just

found that quite shocking but I must say it isn't what he said, he said I don't expect anything but having worked in a high-price job myself and had three children and had to juggle everything I know which I find

harder and I know it won't go down very well with a feminist but actually I find it easy to be at home it's boring looking after three children all day but you can set your own agenda if you're at work you can't and I mean things will be pulling into my pigeonhole every day, which I couldn't ignore. When you're at home, at least you can set your own agenda. And it's not easy. And it's different. But I wouldn't say it's fantastically hard.

It's stressful, but not as stressful as being at work. Well, Sue, thanks very much for saying to us what perhaps you haven't said to your daughter at all. Maybe you have said it. Did you say it to her? Have you said to her? No, no. Mother-in-laws mustn't say anything

to their daughter-in-laws ever. And she's very nice. Some of them do. Some of them do, but I feel happy you feel you could say it here on Woman's Hour. Thank you very much for getting in touch, Sue. As I say, we've only got a few minutes left.

I want to get to Kate. I know you've been waiting a little while. Forgive me for that. Kate in Oxford, good morning. Morning. Tell me where you're coming in at because I think we've not actually come to health yet and you wanted to talk about health.

Yeah, mine's the inequality in health. So for the last nine years, I was going backwards and forwards to the GPs with symptoms of menopause. And I just wasn't, no one was joining the dots. And it was never linked up when I was being diagnosed for all sorts. But also, I've experienced PMDD, which is premenstrual dysphoric disorder. And my daughter, my 31-year-old daughter has it as well.

She was repeatedly going backwards and forwards to the gps with all these symptoms for over a decade um and the doctor doctors weren't joined there i just think there is a real lack of training in women's health care especially around menopause premenstrual dysphoric disorder endometriosis any sort of hormone related illnesses have you how are you now so i mean i was just thinking my god it's been nine years from my first visit yes and it's still it's still ongoing i managed to get i was prescribed antidepressants and i fought for hrt then i had to fight for the hrt to be prescribed then i there's the shortages of the hrt then i was referred to the nhs specialist had to wait and to fight for

that then there's massive waits in between appointments so it's that's where i am now i've but my god i've had to fight and i mean really fight every step of the way. And like some of the previous callers, I'm a single parent of two. They're teenagers, but they were two and four when we split. I have no support from any family members financially, physically, emotionally. It's just me and them. So when this hit at the same time as the kids sort of puberty it's just been hell on earth oh gosh the lack of support at the doctors and the lack of knowledge and training is it's dire and it's affecting so many women i mean i couldn't i gave up a job that i was in for eight years in an office because i

the emotional and mental side of that i felt i wasn't capable anymore and i kept going back to the gp but with physical symptoms as well hair loss itchy skin aching joints dry mouth all that along with depression lack of motivation insomnia anxiety periods all over the place but it was never they weren't joining the dots and um i've spent nine years basically getting to where i am now i've had to leave that job um myself and my daughter that's 31 and the 14 year old started a t-shirt enterprise called death is quips where we support empower inspire women to go and fight to get help especially around the health care issues of premenstrual dysphoric disorder menopause i mean that's it's kind of turned into my life now. It's gone into where that's where I focus all my

energy. That's where I work in that field because I can't work in a workplace because there's just no support. There's no funding. There's no research. Even specialists. I think it's a very important area. We actually did do if you haven't heard it, a whole special on

women's health and the inequality a lot of people have experienced. So do check do, if you haven't heard it, a whole special on women's health and the inequality a lot of people have experienced. So do check that out if you did miss it on BBC Sounds because we heard a lot of stories that will speak to what you're saying. It's a very important point to bring up. Sarah, I'm going to try and get through

a few people if I can just before the end of the programme. Sarah in Bristol, good morning. Good morning there, hi. I've been listening with real interest in everything that everyone said this morning. And the one topic that hasn't really come up for me is the topic of the mental load. And I'm married, I'm a full-time working mother, my husband also works full-time. There's a lot of balancing, a lot of juggling to be done in our lives.

I'm really grateful that I have been able to work full time. I have lots of wonderful support. But I think the thing for me is that my husband doesn't do anything unless I ask him to do it. And that's absolutely fine. We get by in that way. But wouldn't it be wonderful if we lived in a world whereby it wasn't an expectation that the woman had to do all the thinking. I listened to a wonderful speech given by Nick Clegg's wife a few years ago, and she referred to knowing how much cheese was in the fridge.

And I just think that really described it for me. There's never a moment in time where in my brain I am fully at work or fully at home. I'm just laughing. I thought you were going to say there's never a moment in time when you don't know how much cheese there is in the fridge. And I'm thinking about, I can tell you exactly how big that little block of cheddar now is in the Tupperware. I'm just imagining.

Absolutely. And it was so brilliant because that's my life. And if I ask my husband to do something, he wonderfully does it. If I say, would you mind cooking dinner tonight? But there's still something that's innate. And it's not just me. It's my female friends will say exactly the same thing. We regularly talk about it.

Well, thank you for bringing it up here, Sarah. There will be a lot of people, again, who will feel that that is the thing when they think of equality that is lacking. Do you know what? I'm going to be ambitious. Claire in Kent, good morning. I've only got a very short amount of time, but where do you think we've got to? Because you've seen it up close in a different world of work.

Yes, I recently retired from the police force as a detective, joined 30 years ago, whereby I was a whoopsie, and I was advised in order to pass my police driving test to make sure I wore my stockings and suspenders. And by Jove, it worked because he had a good old grope. Oh. I'm not condoning that. No, no.

That was absolutely horrendous. Of course not. Sorry, I just wasn't expecting that. Carry on, Claire. However, think where we are now. My goodness gracious me. I worked within the CID department went up there as first and there was hardly any women by the time i left we were predominantly women the positive discrimination

within the workplace certainly within our police force was actually stunning um it's a different police force but we've only got to look at cressida Dick. So from my perspective, equality, we've never been more equal than now. Can I make a second point? I think you can't, sadly, Claire, but you can come back again because you sound like you have a treasure trove of stories there. Thank you so much for getting in touch. That's a whole other thing we could have debated right at the end, but we are out of time.

I'm sorry if you didn't get on, but thank you so much to all of those who got in touch and for your company this morning i'll be back with you tomorrow at 10 that's all for today's woman's hour thank you so much for your time join us again for the next one this is add to playlist our new podcast from bbc radio 4 with me keris matthews and me jeffrey. Ditch the streaming algorithm as we take you on a musical journey of discovery. In each show, we'll create a playlist of five tracks chosen by Keris and myself. And with the help of a different studio guest each week, we'll explore the rich and unexpected web of connections

between the music you love, hate, and haven't even heard of. That's a promise. We'll go under the bonnet of our compositions and look closer at the nuts and bolts to reveal what's behind our favourite tunes. Just search for Add to Playlist on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

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From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.