Woman's Hour - Ash Barty retires from tennis, Growing up in poverty, Shame, Threads, Men and sexual entitlement

Episode Date: March 23, 2022

Ash Barty, the Australian three time grand slam champion is retiring from tennis. Her achievements are matched only by her fellow player, Serena Williams. Andy Murray tweeted "Happy for Ash, gutted for tennis. What a player". We hear from Gigi Salmon, tennis commentator for the BBC who has interviewed Ash Barty many times over the years, and has been at all her three major wins. The concept of shame first named in the bible when Eve plucked the apple from the tree of life is invariably seen as negative force in society. But in a new book by the author Cathy O Neil she suggests that shame can be a powerful and sometimes a useful tool for good: when we publicly shame corrupt politicians, abusive celebrities or predatory corporations. She joins Emma Barnett to discuss hew new book ‘The Shame Machine: Who Profits in the New Age of Humiliation’. The government is under increasing pressure to tackle Britain’s cost of living crisis in its spring statement today. With rising food and fuel costs, inflation at the highest rate for 30 years and a record increase in household energy bills, households are facing mounting pressures to pay the bills. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation estimates that 1.8 million children today are growing up in very deep poverty. What’s it like to grow up in poverty? And how does it shape you? Skint is a new BBC 4 series of drama monologues all about the lived experience. Kerry Hudson grew up in extreme poverty and has written Hannah’s story. Woman's Hour listener Fran heard one of the conversations in our series Threads which explores the emotional power of old clothes. She remembered a tiny dress and cardigan which she last wore more than 60 years ago. I spoke to her and asked her to describe them. ‘Am I That Guy?’ is a new Radio 4 documentary about sexual entitlement that puts men at the forefront of the conversation. Instead of telling women how to protect themselves from danger it focuses on how men can improve their behaviour. Graham Goulden is a consultant on Police Scotland’s viral ‘Don’t Be That Guy’ campaign and a contributor to the doc. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Gigi Salmon Interviewed Guest: Kerry Hudson Interviewed Guest: Felicity Hannah Interviewed Guest: Cathy O'Neill Interviewed Guest: Graham Goulden

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. Quitting, walking away, resigning, whatever you want to call it, after nearly three years as the world's number one tennis player, Ash Barty has announced her retirement from the sport, aged 25. But how do you know when it is the right time to walk away? Ash Barty's definitely going out on a high.

Three Grand Slam singles events that she's taken, including this year's Australian Open in January, becoming the first home player to win it in the men's or women's side of things in 44 years. She also, of course, took Wimbledon last year. She says she's leaving to chase other dreams and was absolutely spent with physically nothing more to give. And she's also said, I'm so happy and I'm so ready. But how do you know when it is the right time to go? When have you done it? How did it feel? Were you worried? Were you nervous? Were you exhilarated? What did you do afterwards? And why have you done it? How did it feel? Were you worried? Were you nervous? Were you

exhilarated? What did you do afterwards? And why did you do it then? I would love to hear from you on this. I know we have an amazing array of our listeners with different experiences. You often help us out with all of your time and your experiences and your views and your comments. But when have you walked away from something big in your life and why did you do it at that point? It would be lovely to, of course, talk to you on air. You can text me here at 84844. Do leave your number if you're willing to also come on and talk this morning. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. How and when do you know if it's the right time to walk away? Also on today's programme,

ahead of the Chancellor's Spring Statement, the writer Kerry Hudson's here to talk about the impact of growing up poor in light of the cost of living crisis. As the police officer who's coming on today to talk about trying to change certain men's behaviour towards women, what tactics are working? And does he see a line between casual remarks, as some would see them, and violence? And shame, how it can be a force for good. All that to come, so stay with me here on Women's Hour. But Ash Barty, the Australian three-time Grand Slam champion,

is retiring from tennis. Serena Williams is the only other active female player to have won major titles on clay, grass and hard courts. Andy Murray tweeted this morning, happy for Ash, gutted for tennis, what a player. Let's talk now to Gigi Salmon, tennis commentator for the BBC, who's also interviewed Ash Barty many times over the years and has been at all of her three major wins. Gigi, good morning. Good morning to you. I have to say, I didn't need an alarm clock this morning. The amount of pinging on my phone with people saying, have you heard?

Can you believe this is this is unbelievable news about Ash Barty. Is it unbelievable, though, in some ways, because you're aware of these people, not just as players, but as people. I think it's two sided. Am I shocked that Ash Barty has walked away from tennis at a young age? She's 25. No, because there had been rumblings that she wasn't going to be playing into her 30s, into her late 30s. Am I shocked at the timing? Yes. Now, this is two months after she became the Australian Open champion. She's now spent 114 consecutive weeks as world number one. She's at the peak of her powers, both on and off the court.

She was Wimbledon champion, which is the fulfilment of a dream last summer. She's going to be a massive loss to tennis. So shock for the timing, yes. Shock that she stepped away at a young age from the sport, no. And in terms of the impact that she's had on tennis, just to stay with that for a moment before we get to perhaps how life is off the court and the pressures around that, or just how life is and how life could be different. What has that impact been? What's her style and what's her effect, if you

like, on the game? It's been huge. I was reading a report in the Age newspaper in Australia recently that in the last year, there's been a 30% increase in the take-up of tennis among young people in Australia, largely Indigenous children and young girls using Ash Barty as a hero, as a role model. She's phenomenal on and off the court, but sticking with on the court, she's got a very unique style of play. You highlighted that she, together with Serena Williams, the only active players to win Grand Slams on three different surfaces, the grass, the clay, the hard course. That's so hard to do, to have a game that can adapt to those different

surfaces and the different challenges. And it's something that Ash Barty was able to rise to. Now, this is someone that walked away from tennis in 2014 because of depression, because of homesickness, the travel that goes into being a professional tennis player. She didn't want to be away from home, but she returned to the sport that ultimately she loves and she will continue to love. And what she's done is she's dedicated herself over the last few years to being the very best that she can be. She didn't travel during the pandemic, even when travel was allowed. She said, I'm not going to. I can't work with my coach. There are barriers, there are borders

closed, and I don't want to be away. Last year, she put everything into being on the court, being away from home for eight months from friends and from family to achieve something astonishing, which is winning Wimbledon, the achievement of a dream, and then going on and backing it up and becoming the Australian Open champion. She's done an awful lot for the sport. She has a different style. It's old-fashioned. It's slicing.

It's serving. It's volleying. It's coming forward. She's got a huge serve. She's only 5'5 inches tall. She has a little bit of everything. And she's proved that those dreams can come true if you work hard enough and you commit enough. She now says she's proved that those dreams can come true if you work hard enough and you commit

enough she now says she's totally spent but she has given everything to her career as a tennis player isn't it kind of cool that she's done this I mean there's people going oh she's only 25 and of course there'll be some saying you know she's got years in her yet and why is she doing this now but to just you know it's the ultimate mic isn't it? I've just won all of these things. I'm 25. I've given all I can give. Let's go do something else. It's unbelievable. In December, she announced her engagement to her long-term boyfriend, Gary Kissick. She was very happy and she was very settled. And she's got, how many can say that Nico Rosberg in Formula One in 2016, he won the world title and said, I'm off. I want to spend time with family. And people are saying, what are you doing?

Now, we've had one other female tennis player who has quit as world number one. That was Justine Enner. But a few years later, she returned to the sport. We've had Marion Bartley, who retired. She was further in her career after she won Wimbledon. Flavia Panetta, after she won the US Open. I think it's a very brave decision to do what she has done.

25 at the peak of her earning powers. I mean, she's earned nearly £18 million prize money, just prize money alone. But the peak of her powers to say, I am done. I am spent physically and emotionally. I think it's really brave, but I think you're right. I think it's also really cool. She's like, I've got other things I want to do. And now I'm in a position where I can go and chase those other dreams. It's interesting as well, though, because it can be viewed, especially you looking, you know, looking across the world of sport like this. It could be viewed as weakness. Quitting is not what you're meant to do when you're training day after day after day. That's not how a lot of people will perceive it, I'm sure.

But there is, you know, just even Andy Murray saying, you know, gutted for tennis. The idea that there's more, there's more, there's more. You've got to keep going until you drop. Do you think this could change attitudes around that? Or do you think we should actually be asking the question about the pressure, about the strain? There's an awful lot of pressure in tennis. You have to remember, it's a very individual sport. Yes, you're travelling with a team, but you could be travelling for 48 weeks a year. And for those players from Australia, that's an awful long time away from home

because you have the Australian summer at the start of the year. Then everything is on the road. It takes an awful lot out of you. Ash Barty didn't pick up a racket a couple of years ago. She's been doing this for most of her life. There's pictures of her as just a small little girl with a tennis racket. These dreams began a long, long time ago. I think there will be people who say, why has she done it? Is there something else? Is there something else going on here that

we don't know about? So who in their right mind would walk away at the peak of their powers at the very top of their sport, which is why we come back to it being a brave decision. Will it affect others? You know, I think a big change for tennis players was the pandemic, because the first time in most of their adult careers, they were at home and they realised that when tennis stopped, life didn't stop. And there were other things out there that they could do. And there was also a life after tennis. We saw Caroline Wozniacki won the Australian Open, being world number one. She then decided she wanted to settle down and have a family.

You have those like Andy Murray that they are addicted to this lifestyle. They want to give it everything. They want to keep going. Roger Federer in his 40s now and Serena Williams. When are we going to get the decision and hear about their career? But I think I think for Ash Barty, another big thing for Ash Barty is having a family. And as a woman, it doesn't matter what career you are in, there is a clock that is ticking. And especially so in tennis, it's very hard to step away, have that family and come back. And I know a handful of female tennis players who actually walked away from a very good career in their early 20s, because they were already thinking about settling down and having a family. And that's hard to do when you're traveling for as I say upwards of 40 weeks a year so of course people will question the decision some people will think she is totally

mad for doing what she's doing others will say thank you very much for everything you've given tennis this is a brave decision and now rightly so you, you've given everything. It's time to chase those other dreams. Yes, well, as she said, absolutely spent, physically nothing more to give, but also saying I'm so happy and I'm so ready. And those would have been, of course, carefully chosen words to communicate her mood and how she's feeling on it. I think it sounds pretty cool. Gigi Salmon, thank you very much for telling us a bit more about Ash Barty and also her impact in the world that you cover for us here at the BBC as a tennis commentator.

A couple of messages just to share at this point. I've just left my job of 11 years, very well paid, couldn't handle the relentless stress anymore, not worth sacrificing my mental health. I've got a new job in a museum with a 70% pay cut. I'm a bit worried about the price rises issue right now, but I'll have to see how it goes. I promised myself I'd make the change.

I'm so glad I did. Emma, I'm setting myself free at 50. No name on that, but you go get them. And I hope you're really enjoying the new work at the museum and perhaps, you know, the new amount of time in your life away from work. I walked away from two jobs when there was a mixture of unethical and heartless attitudes and practices, plus a target-driven stressful culture for workers, reads this other message.

What have you walked away from and why? How did you know it was the right time? What were the decisions that were going on in your life that led to that and the influences? Do let me know on 84844. Do leave your number if you're also willing to come on the radio and have a chat. It'd be lovely to talk to you. But we are talking also today ahead of the statement, the spring statement from the Chancellor. The government is under increasing pressure

to tackle the deepening costs of living crisis in the spring statement today. The Chancellor, we're told, is set to, quote, stand by British families with rising food and fuel costs, inflation at the highest rate for

30 years, now over 6%, and a record increase in household energy bills. Many are facing mounting pressures to pay these rising costs. And then there are sacrifices that come by budgeting for them. The Joseph Roundtree Foundation estimates that there are 1.8 million children today growing up in very deep poverty. First, I'm going to talk to Felicity Hanna about this, a personal finance journalist, and of course, you may also recognise her voice as a presenter of Radio 4's Moneybox. Good morning, Felicity. Good morning. What are the numbers on how many people are being affected by this cost of living crisis?

I think the really important thing to say is that almost everybody is being affected in some way by the cost of living crisis. People on middle incomes who've previously never struggled, they're really starting to notice these price rises now at the pump, on their grocery bills and their energy bills. But of course, the people it's affecting the most are the people who've already been struggling for years, sometimes for decades. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation says that nine million families currently on benefits could be as much as £500 a year worse off from April. And that is a huge amount of money if you're on a particularly tight budget to start with. And that's because we're seeing inflation

at such incredible highs. And of course, you've got to remember that inflation hits the poorest hardest. So if you're on a higher income, inflation might mean that you have to use the car a bit less, cut back on weekends away, that kind of thing. If you are already living on a really tight budget, you're already only really spending on essentials. And when you have to start cutting back on those, you're in real trouble. It's going to be a very different sounding Chancellor though today, isn't it? In the sense of the last few statements and budgets we've had from him have been in the middle of the pandemic with the government taking unprecedented interventionist measures because of the freeze on the economy due to lockdown. What can or should we be expecting from the Chancellor today? It's a really interesting question because yes, the Chancellor

is no longer in the COVID crisis, but this cost of living crisis, I think could be just as serious politically because people are really noticing the impact on their day-to-day lives. There is is no longer in the COVID crisis, but this cost of living crisis, I think could be just as serious politically because people are really noticing the impact on their day-to-day lives. There is some speculation that he might provide some help. He said, as you say, he'll stand by British families.

There's some speculation he might cut fuel duty by a few pence. That, of course, you have to remember that fuel is also increased by the cost of VAT and there's no suggestion so far that he might cut that. He might raise the national insurance threshold so fewer people pay it. But of course, most people will still be seeing a hike in national insurance from April. He might also boost benefits.

It's going to be a really tricky balancing act for the chancellor, because on the one hand, does he target that support at the poorest families who are really struggling to just try and help them keep their heads above water? Or does he do something which might be more politically popular

and spread the support around so those families who are on middle incomes or higher earners but are really starting to feel the pinch, feels like he's got their back. It's going to be a tight

balancing act for him and I'm not entirely sure which way he's going to jump. Well, we will be keeping a close ear across that. And the BBC will keep you up to date across our various outlets with what's in that particular statement and how it could affect you. But we wanted to try and keep a tight eye on those families that you've talked about. And those also that really are struggling already with the costs and looking to how they can make ends meet and keep going forward. Felicity Hanna, thank you very much for a bit of a curtain raiser, but also a scene setter on how things are at the moment.

But what it's actually like to grow up in poverty, how it actually feels, the decisions that you're making or those around you are making. My next guest, the writer Kerry Hudson, has firsthand experience of. She did grow up in extreme poverty. She's written about it before. She's also written a new monologue for the BBC. There's a BBC Four series, very powerful, of drama monologues called Skint. And Kerry, I know that you've written one of those. I've watched it. Good morning. Good morning to you. Hi. Thanks for joining us again. And I think the cost of living crisis, it's one of those phrases which somehow, again, distances you from what it actually is. So could you give an example, perhaps, that comes to mind for you that brings it to life?

And I hate to say it like that, but do you know what I mean about that phrase? Yeah, I mean, Emma, I don't mind because so much of my work is trying to show people the human cost of poverty. It's easy to get caught up in statistics. They're staggering. But it's much harder, I think, to imagine the person who's experiencing that poverty. What I tend to say is think about it. If it was your favourite teacher facing homelessness or your auntie who couldn't afford more than one meal a day. So for me, I grew up in a variety of temporary housing and council housing and private rentals. I tried to count actually yesterday, and I came up with a number between 15 and 20, but probably more.

And along with that, we were on benefits. So long before food banks, we were struggling to feed ourselves and i think what's really important to remember about the benefit system then which was a while ago the 80s and 90s and now is that it's designed it's designed to be the least amount possible that people can live on and you know they're trying to cut fat where there's only bone there because essentially it's meant to be a system it's a safety net yes but especially under our current government is meant to act as a um a way to get people into work um however you you think successful that is and so it's already like the minimum that it can be so as felicity said you're cutting you're cutting where there's

nothing to cut there. These families, I think it's interesting that the language has changed from heating or eating to whether or not you're going to starve or freeze. That's the sort of language that I'm seeing now. And I really wonder what's our lowest bar? You know, if we're letting kids like me grow up homeless in damp, unsafe accommodation with not enough food and no winter coats in a Scottish winter. How can we say that we're functioning as a society if we're still doing that 20 or 30 years later? You say in, of your memories of growing up, that you cannot remember a warm home in the winter from your youth. And you talk about it seeming some of your memories feeling like characters in a dickens novel you your sister your mum crowded around small small you know flames fires whatever you could get your yourself close to and also i think you know some of the

some of the detail with regard to you know how it felt growing up in a cold bed and and never feeling warm when you were going to sleep i mean i think for us i mean we grew up in a cold bed and never feeling warm when you were going to sleep? I mean, I think for us, I mean, we grew up in, so we were often in B&Bs, which were not fit for families anyway, but certainly not fit for a whole family to live in one room, or in social housing that had really been left to just dilapidate. So a lot of mould, a lot of damp and private rentals, I mean the example I always give because I think it's so extreme is that in one private rental that we were paying a lot for and it was really just two rooms we had mushrooms growing out of our

bathroom carpet, I mean literal mushrooms because it was so cold and so wet and so damp and you have to ask yourself what should your home be and especially if you're a child, your home should be safe and warm and comforting and it should be and especially if you're a child your home should be safe and warm and comforting and it should be a place where you feel you're cared for and I think the problem is that even more so with the cost of living increase now which is not being mitigated by

the government for those most in need we are telling children that they don't matter that society doesn't care and how on earth are they meant to achieve their potential if they are literally just scrapping through the day, if their parents are trying to decide whether or not they're going to let their kids freeze or starve? And if that's the state we've gotten to, how can we help these parents get out of the poverty trap? How can we help these children reach their full potential? I know you don't particularly want to talk about politics. I'm not going to draw you on that. But one of the minds, well, no, we've got a lot of people who do that. And we have the politicians themselves, no less. But one of the things that you did believe growing up is that you had done something wrong to deserve it. And there is a mentality which you're alluding to. We have had a conservative government now for 12 years, you are alluding to part of a mentality that is,

you know, work is the way out, you can work your way out. If you have, you know, if you will be motivated by the way that the benefit system is structured in our universal credit. And actually, I know that what your experience you feel is something that you want to talk about from that point of view, because for some some work isn't working and we have a great deal of those in work and in poverty and it's there is a mindset that goes with this that that makes you feel like it is your fault regardless of what you're doing yeah i mean i think internalized shame for people growing up on poverty um the idea that like i mean how do you square it as a kid that that inequality it's really, really difficult to do even as an adult. And so it's easy to believe that you've done something wrong. And even more so when you had for decades, media that perpetuated the stereotype that somehow poor people have brought it on themselves or they haven't worked hard enough. But what we're seeing undeniably is that there is a huge increase

in working families who are also experiencing extreme poverty. So for instance, a recent report from Crisis showed that 22% of people seeking help for homelessness in 2021 were actually working. So you can be working, you can be doing, you know, you can be fulfilling if you like your part of the deal, the deal that you're meant to do, which is go to work and work hard and raise your family. And the system is not working for those people. And so when a system doesn't work, you have to you have to look at the greater structural issues, I think. In the monologue that you've written as part of this series, Skint, the mother that is talking your words, she actually has this throwaway comment where she says her and her partner are both on zero employers flexibility, but there isn't the flexibility or even the desire for the flexibility because there's the need for the extra 90-odd pence she talks about.

Yeah, I mean, I think what we've seen, I mean, people often ask me when my book came out, which was three years ago now. This was your book, Lowborn. Lowborn, yeah. I should mention the name of the book. Well, I'm helping you out there. Go on.

And they mentioned, they kept asking me, is it getting better or worse? You know, is it better since you grew up? And I told them it's getting worse. Universal credit is a deeply flawed failed experiment, which has ended up penalising our most vulnerable. And there's less social housing stock and now we also have the advent of zero-hour contracts which gives the employer all of the power without any of the responsibility towards their employees. I feel like poor people have never been more vulnerable and that is before we even really start talking about the cost of living crisis which I think everyone can agree is just going to get worse. Well I've already seen some messages coming in about bills and how bills are going up in very small properties as well,

where not a lot of heat is being used and people who are not even in the position that you're describing, I imagine. Of course, with universal credit, I should say that there would be some who would say it needs more time. The system has been badly implemented um all of those things are of course up for for the conversation but the broader point about uh not as much social housing what's going on with zero hours i mean of course if you only look in the news recently about people losing their jobs lots of people losing their jobs over zoom calls and then being replaced by those you know not on fixed term contracts all of those sorts of things, these trends are happening in front of us in these news stories. I just wonder, from your perspective now, is it a mentality that you can escape?

You are now in a very different place, but what is the impact having grown up in that sort of scenario with that mindset? I mean, I think probably what I said earlier is most accurate. You grew up believing that what you say doesn't matter, that your place in society doesn't matter, that there are children who society cares about and there are children like you who society does not care about. And so you've got to ask yourself as you're growing up, well, why should I try and

achieve my full potential when nobody clearly thinks that I'm capable of doing anything and the thing that I always say is and I'm really just very very keen to point this out is that I am not a social mobility success story I have been able to make a better life for myself through sheer luck and through lucky circumstance that's it you know and there were 49 kids that I left behind in my estates or in the B&Bs that I grew up in that were just as capable as I was just as smart as I was had just as much potential who didn't reach their full potential because growing up in poverty erodes your sense of self-worth it erodes your ability to be able to access basic things like further education like career development um and so i mean i think the problem is that the cost of living crisis that

we have now and we are bringing kids up in an environment that is setting them up to fail in 20 or 30 years. We're failing those kids now and in 20 or 30 years, we're going to see the consequences of that because they will have not reached their full potential. I also, you know, if I may say, think talking about luck is really important. I don't think it does get brought up in all sorts of scenarios where we even just heard it there with, you know, with tennis. Of course, she's worked very hard. She's achieved all she can. And then she's shown that this is possible. I think there are those myths as well around that and what constitutes success and all the ingredients that go into somebody's life ending up with where they end up. And it is a myth, isn't it? I really believe so. You know, and I think, you know, the example I always give is that if you manage to achieve anything as a

person who comes from poverty, you've done everything everyone else did, but like Fred and Ginger, you did everything backwards and heels, you know, like you have to work twice as hard to even vault the barriers that face you. And then even then, because of the way the system is, you have to be given enormous, enormous moments of luck to be able to navigate a system that is absolutely rigged against you. And that is, it's simply too much to ask. For many people who've grown up in poverty,

you know, I had really bad mental health problems for almost all of my 20s directly because I grew up in poverty. And so if we do not fix the system to help young people coming up through the system who have come from poverty and support them and enable, lower those barriers so that they can also help themselves, then I think, you know, we're just headed towards more of the same and even, unfortunately, worse, you know. We'll see what the spring statement has to say, of course, from the Chancellor. But I suppose weaving through the actual experience into the politics, the facts, the figures is also very important, which is why we wanted to talk to you today. I was very moved by something I read that you wrote when you just had your little boy.

I remember we spoke actually on the programme last year, and he was born in Prague at the height of the pandemic during a winter of heavy snow. And you wrote, when people came into our small apartment, they would declare it almost tropical, shedding layers as they walked in from the front door to the living room. They would look at me questioningly, aren't you boiling? Can I crack a window? And I would shrug, hold my baby close and say,

I just really can't take the cold. And I was so moved by that, having read your book and also known what you talked about and how cold you were growing up, that I think sort of says it all in many ways. I mean, I think I am like every other parent. I just want to give my child the best. I want them to be warm and

safe and fed and have a winter coat when they need a winter coat and we should enable every parent from whatever income background to be able to give those childs their children the basics. Kerry Hudson thank you very much for talking to me talking to all of us today Skint which you've contributed to this monologue is also showing on BBC4 and available on the iPlayer if you want to check that out. What was just mentioned within our conversation, a very powerful word, the word shame. And it's also one of the most powerful forces out there, often seen as a negative. But a new book suggests that shame can also be a powerful and sometimes useful tool for good when we publicly shame perhaps corrupt politicians, abusive celebrities, predatory corporations, for instance. The book's called The Shame Machine, Who Profits in the New Age of Humiliation?

And the author, Cathy O'Neill, joins me now on the line from Massachusetts. I should say good morning and thank you for getting up so early. It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me. I wondered if we could start with the good shame, actually, and what you call punching up. What do you mean by that? Well, there's basically two forms of punching up shame. They're basically holding power to account. So that would be, you know, punching up at powerful people for making the wrong choice and not living up to their ideals. So sort of

forcing people to live up their ideals to their ideals. And then there's another form, which is, I call it healthy shame, that's careful to not violate people's dignity. It's careful to sort of refer to a community norm that, you know, I want you to do this even though you're not doing it for personal reasons. I want you to think of it as something that the community needs you to do. And if, you know, the examples I have in mind today are the way that Ukraine President Zelensky sort of punches up and sort of does healthy shame with the rest of the Western leaders. It's a soft kind of shame because he's not outwardly saying shame on you.

What he's doing is saying there's a threat. There's a threat of that. But really what he's saying is we're all part of the same community. If you guys want to back democracy, I'm the person who's holding the line, you need to help me. So there's this like threat that, you know, you're not living up to the ideals that you espouse. And that's typical of a healthy type of shame. Yeah, well, I mean, it's one of those things that it's a very powerful force. You know, I was thinking about some of the stories I've read where people say it's kind of invaded how they think about themselves. It's if they've been in any way publicly shamed, because that's what a lot of it is now.

A lot of it can happen publicly, can't it? Not least because of social media. But you're also talking about when people talk to each other and how they can also use experiences to make people think differently. Why did you want to get into shame as a subject? Yeah, well, I just before I tell you my personal reasons to write this book, I will say that like most of the public shaming that you see happening on the internet, I would not consider healthy shaming, right? So healthy shaming has to be characterized by like having a community and a notion of trust and like the ability to sort of keep track of people. So tracking their progress in the sense of like, are they changing their behavior? Because ultimately shame is about sort of holding somebody to the norm that you share with them. So another way that, you know,

it wouldn't be healthy shame, it would be inappropriate is if, and wouldn't work is if you're holding someone to a norm that they don't even share, right? Like you can try to shame them, but it won't work. Now, I will say that my, my background, you know, I'm a mathematician, I'm a data scientist, I interviewed teachers who had been fired based on a scoring system. And it was a terrible scoring system. We later found out it was not much more than a random number generator. But at the time I interviewed them, I'd ask them, well, did you ask for an explanation of your score? And the teachers would invariably say something along the lines of, well, I did ask, but they told me it was math and I wouldn't understand it. And as a mathematician, I was just sort of agog. I was like, well, what happened next? And I was

always surprised until I stopped being surprised because it was so consistent to hear that people stopped asking questions after that. This is what I now understand is math shaming. It was a way of shaming someone for their ignorance, which is very, very standard. It's one of the mechanisms. That's what I realized, that it was not just a one-off event. It was a mechanism to make people stop asking questions. It was a silencing mechanism. In some sense, that shaming aspect was the power that that terrible algorithm had ultimately, because it didn't have mathematical power. In fact, it was very weak, but it had this power. It was defended with the power of shame. So that was the first observation I had of the power of shame and how it was systematic. And then I've kind of put that in my back pocket. And a couple years later, actually, I was doing my own research online to try to avoid getting diabetes, which my dad wasC levels, my blood sugar levels were higher and higher. I was very worried about diabetes. And I'd read somewhere that bariatric surgery

would help with that. Now, bariatric surgery is primarily considered a weight loss surgery. So I was looking up information on loss of a weight loss surgery. But I was, you know, and I was inundated with this sort of the fat shaming environment of the internet. And to be clear, like I used to work in ad tech as a data scientist, I actually know exactly why those ads were showing being shown to me. I knew exactly what the attempt was, you know, it was trying to get me to buy products. But what I realized is that I was so inundated with feelings of shame. It was washing over me the feeling of like, this is my fault that I'm overweight. This is my fault that I'm going to get diabetes.

I really wanted to buy something to make that feeling go away. And I just would have done anything. And that was the moment when I realized, like, I understand the teachers now. the point of view of whomever was trying to to be in charge and organized perhaps or maybe not and from potentially those who are selling in this instance products with regards to to weight loss it may also work but actually what you what you're also saying is you weren't being shamed into perhaps healthy behaviors you weren't being shamed into thinking about it from a way that that could help and i i think i remember particularly on on the issue of those wanting to lose weight, I remember doing a phone-in like it was yesterday on a different radio station here at the BBC. And I remember us talking about this

and people thinking if they just told family members to lose weight, it would work, making them feel bad about it. And then we had those getting in touch saying, it makes me want to eat more. It makes me feel worse. So, you know, does shame work is makes me want to eat more. It makes me feel worse. So, you know, does shame work is what I wanted to ask you. Yeah, that's a really great, great question.

And one of the, one of the reasons I wrote the book is to try to understand, number one, when is shame appropriate? And number two, when does it work? And I'll start with the appropriateness and it goes to exactly what you just said. Is it a choice? Is it a choice? And it goes back to your previous interview with Carrie, which I thought was amazing. We frame the things that are not choices as choices in order to blame people who have those problems. So we frame being fat as a choice, like you're just choosing to be fat. It's not a choice, by the way. Just to be clear, it's also not a choice to be poor, especially if you're a child. But by blaming people for their problems, we, you know, there's a lot of things that happen.

In particular, it's like not something, not a problem that the society has to solve overall. It sort of shifts the burden to the people who are experiencing the problem, which is unfair and not useful. And to your point, it actually makes the problem worse. It doesn't improve our chances of getting out of that situation at all. Because you could debate some of those points that you've raised. But ultimately, if you are someone who wants to change something, you should be interested in what works. Yes. And that's the point. That's exactly right. Why would you pile on shame if you know it doesn't work? The answer, of course, is that it does work, just like it worked for the, you know, the, the people who built, who were,

were, were trying to fire the teachers. It works politically as a mechanism to get them to stop asking questions. It works, you know, it works as a profit engine to tell people, if you do this diet, that's expensive. You know, you're going to lose weight. And then when it doesn't work, then you have a repeat customer. So it works more than once, you know, the profit engine keeps getting fed. And for that matter, it works as a policy to blame poor people, because then you don't have to actually help them. Yes. I mean, again, we're not going into, I suppose, the specifics of where that's happening or what's happening. You've got lots of examples. But I think taking a step back, are you then saying you should go through the world?

And I wonder if it's changed how you go through the world where you're aware almost of the power of it and how it's being misused or misdirected. And are you also saying to people that they need to look at how they are perhaps doling it out? Because, you know, when you experience shame, you feel awful. If you inflict shame, you can sometimes feel good. Yeah, it's very, it's a very good point. Yeah. So I didn't finish defining like appropriate shame, but it's basically does the person have a choice? Do they have a voice? And as a voice is another really important aspect of it, which is the sort of the ability to defend themselves, the ability to be seen

improving their behavior that is almost never available online, right? So there's this tendency to shame people online for mistakes or for things that they really can't control, but often for mistakes. And the question is then, do you really think you're changing their behavior if you could never even catch up with them later? You can't track them and see whether anything's changed. And why would people be doing this if not? And the answer is, by the way, to your point, we get pleasure from that outrage cycle, from shaming other people, inflicting shame on other people when we think we're right, actually lights up our pleasure centers almost like heroin. And it in some sense is addictive. And more to the point, it profits the social media platforms that have us up there, right? So I would think my framing of inappropriate shame is sort of like the old school shame industrial complex,

are the weight loss industries, et cetera, that profit by telling us you should be ashamed by our product, which doesn't work by the way. And then the new version of that is the big tech companies who build this perfect environment so that we find out the worst possible thing about other people. We inflict shame and we get sort of props from our, from our friends that makes us feel good. And it sort of creates these outrage cycles that will never end. Why? Because the longer we spend on

these platforms, the more money the tech companies get. So to be clear, I don't want to punch down on us, right? I want to punch up at the tech companies. And my general message is, aim higher. Like usually when there's something that's really going wrong, it's the system that we need to question, not necessarily each other. Well, we could go another couple of hours. I've only got one, it's a woman's hour, on this because I think, you know, there is a school of thought also. You can't just do that side of it. You know, some of these societal ills, many of them existed before the tech companies.

But I take your point that there's an environment that wasn't there before to create some of the rewards, very immediate rewards that you're talking about. And I suppose it's very hard to imagine that it gives you so much pleasure to shame others. And yet we know it's true from what you're saying from research and also some of what others have told us. Cathy O'Neill, the book is called The Shame Machine, Who Profits in the New Age of Humiliation? Thank you so much for joining us.

Many of you also getting in touch with regards to my first question this morning about how you know when it's the right time to walk away. This is after Ash Barty, the Australian three-time Grand Slam champion, is retiring from tennis at the age of 25. And I have to say, some of you feeling not necessarily as much shame as we're talking about here, but some of those feelings are certainly fear. There's an anonymous message here. Last year, I played the lead in a West End show. You've not put your name, but I'd love to know who you are. But I totally understand this in terms of the honesty of the message. It was all I had ever wanted and dreamt of since I was 11. The truth is that the sacrifices I made to get there have taken a serious toll. Not seeing family and friends, a series of poorly paid, unfulfilling jobs and a great strain on my mental health, which has led me to seek help, to seek therapy. I'm at a crossroads where I'm scared about saying

goodbye because I don't know how I'll feel without that buzz. For me, it comes down to identity. Acting has defined me and to say goodbye is very painful. I wish Ash all the best and she seems to have owned her decision. Another one saying, though, I'd wish I'd walked away. Instead, I crashed. I was an assistant head teacher in a challenging school with four children under 10 when my mum was diagnosed

with a terminal illness. I should have recognised the signs. Stopping and changing to a less challenging job was such a good move, but I spent years regretting what I perceived as my failure. And another one here. I left a high profile job as a showbiz journalist on a national newspaper at the peak of my career to focus on my family after illness and became a novelist. Now I've done four novels with my fifth out next week and three optioned for television, another side of walking away and what can happen.

Well, let's go to Fran. One of our listeners, one of you, got in touch with us after hearing a conversation in our series Threads, which explores the emotional power of old clothes. She remembered a tiny dress and cardigan which she last wore more than 60 years ago and I spoke to her and asked her to describe them. I've got a little pink jumper which is a little bit fluffy. I've got it here so very pale pink. Oh and it's tiny, absolutely tiny. Absolutely tiny,

yeah that was how tiny I was at six weeks old. And you have that jumper and a dress as well, is that right? A dress as well. I've got a little dress which is sort of nylon, very pale. And then the dress is pink and it's nylon. It's very, very light material, short sleeves. And it's got a little bit of braid and elastic going across the top, typical of that time of, I suppose, in the late 50s. It looks a little bit old-fashioned now, but quite pretty.

Very sweet, very small. And tell me why you still have those pieces of clothing. They've always been there. My mum put them in the cupboard for me when I was very small. I think I can just vaguely remember her telling me about them. And they've just been there in a drawer underneath my ordinary clothes. And I just don't think I'd throw them away now. They are very important in terms of your early life experience, aren't they?

That's right, yeah. I believe that I wore these when I was adopted at six weeks old. And these were the clothes I was wearing when I came to my mum and dad. Are they the only physical pieces that you have from your life before being adopted? Yes. Yeah. So they must have a lot of meaning to you, even though, as you say, they've always been there. Yes. I think it sort of represents a sort of continuity, really. These were part of the life before those first six weeks. And I think, you know, and there's a thought that maybe I was dressed up in those.

And, you know, I was looked after. It sort of represents the world I was in before and the world that I went to. Whenever I face journeys and transition now, there's something there about continuity. When and where were you told about being adopted? What are your earliest memories of that? I think I was about four years old. I remember my mum and dad, they tried for children for many, many years. They struggled to adopt because one was a Catholic, one was Anglican, and the adoption societies didn't see them as suitable. This was in Liverpool, and I remember being told that I was handed over

from my birth mum to my own mum, to my mum. We were all crying, and I screamed all the way back to Manchester from Liverpool, apparently. But I knew my name, about what my name would have been. I was told that, you know, I was chosen special. Many, many years later, you did trace your birth mother, didn't you, in 2007? That's right. That's right. Why did you do that and how did that go?

Well, I think it was after my parents had died and I think I'd never really thought I needed to know and I think as they weren't in the world I was beginning to wonder who I was, where I'd come from. That was what really started me and it all happened quite smoothly and I met not just my birth mother but family as. And it was a real positive experience. Were you able to talk with your birth mother or how was her health? She'd had a stroke, so that made it quite difficult, actually. The conversations were quite limited.

But it was, as you would say, a positive experience overall. Yes, yeah. And I think meeting my half-sister and an aunt, it was just really fascinating and a great experience meeting people that I was genetically connected to. Just coming back to the clothes, there will be things that people have, not necessarily the same sort of story, but they've always just take with them wherever they move, especially from when they were very small. Where do you normally keep them in your house? And would you look at them? Occasionally, I'll take them out and have a look at them.

They're actually in one of my chest of drawers, just underneath my T-shirts. They're just tucked away with all my other ordinary clothes. It's funny how you do that, isn't it? I have something quite similar. It's an old scarf, a very old scarf, my first school scarf. But it is, it's sort of with my pyjamas, because I don't know where else to put it. Yeah. It's funny where you keep things, isn't it? Yeah. And I think in some ways, they're just very ordinary, but they're also very, very special.

So yes, they're in a plastic bag, a seethrough plastic bag so I know I just know where they are and I'd actually forgotten about them until I heard your program last week and I just got up and just started to look at them again and feel them and I've never been very precious about them or looked at them and felt particularly gooey. I've just known they were there. But in a way, they're part of my subconscious psyche. Well, a very big part of your very early days, I suppose. And for the future, I imagine they'll always come with you. Absolutely.

I'm facing some changes in the future now, which are just moving, which is quite scary. And yeah, there's part of me that thinks they were there when I was totally helpless and I was dependent on others. And it's quite empowering. You know, I've been through a lot of journeys and transitions through life at different stages. And I think in a way they, yeah, they leave me quite empowered that whatever I've got to face, I can do this. Big thanks to Fran for feeling like she could talk to us about those items of clothing and what they mean. Now, Am I That Guy is a new Radio 4 documentary about sexual entitlement.

But instead of telling women how to protect themselves from danger, it focuses on how men can improve their behaviour. It's hosted by the Scottish writer and broadcaster Alistair Heather, who's not proud of some of his past interactions with women. Here he is discussing what they call locker room talk. While we accept that our behaviour here on the east coast of Scotland, but they do in working class estates down in London, in middle class Guildford. There's guys that are doing exactly what we're doing, making these jokes and making these statements

and generating these cultures that are hostile to women. We didn't get judged for our appearance, thank God. If I was walking down the street and three or four women whistled at me and shouted at me, there is no two dudes I would go home with a chest out and send the wife. I got whistled up the day. It's never happened, by the way. Fundamentally, the chat with Farmer really showed me

that we're right at the start of this. Some of the things I was saying to him, he was thinking for the very first time. That will stagger a lot of women listening. It can't be emphasised enough how early we are in this conversation for men. We are at square one. And what frustrated me about Fermor was the idea that

the big gap between banter and male sexual entitlement, I don't think there is a big gap. And I think that I didn't get that across and that frustrated me. That documentary is on Radio 4 directly after us today after Women's Hour today at 11 so you can hear it then or catch up later on BBC Sounds but joining me now Graham Goulden a former police officer of 30 years a consultant on Police Scotland's

viral Don't Be That Guy campaign as well as a contributor to that documentary. Good morning. Good morning Emma it's Pleasure to be here. Well, I was re-watching the Don't Be That Guy campaign, which began at the end of last year. And in it, what were you trying to say to men? What we were trying to do was to make this connection between words and language. And Ali talks about there, that banter, jokes, language,

and the connection between that and acts of physical violence, rape, sexual assault, other forms of violence. And the line in the film, sexual violence starts long before you think it does. And it was just to get men to reflect. Ali talks about his friend, Fermar, who hadn't really made that connection. And we still have a lot of men out there

who have not made that connection between words and language and acts. I remember just after the Sarah Everard murder last year, speaking about it on television, and my brother said to me, Graham, how can I prevent rape and murder? And I said to my brother, stop thinking about these acts

and start thinking about your everyday actions, your words, your language. And that was the whole point, was making the connection, asking men to, hoping, hopefully that men would start to see the potential links and then giving them the tools to speak up. There'll be some, though, listening saying, what is the evidence that that sort of language then leads to violence?

Because it will be a big leap for many. Yeah, there's evidence, there was some research done in American universities years ago, replicated year after year, which suggests that one, that a lot of men, young men, wrongly perceive what their friends think. You know, the vast majority of men have, you know, hold good views and good attitudes. But we also have a small number of men who think that their views are being supported by other friends, other colleagues, other teammates. And that's a perfect storm for me, for other men, for these some men to start to move in that continuum, the verbal, the emotional, the physical, the sexual abuse without challenge.

And the perfect storm for good men to stand by and do nothing. And I think there's a lot of men deeply troubled. And we do see men intervene at the big acts i use that phrase what loosely big acts you know speaking up and saying that's wrong that's shocking but we need men to start to speak in that sort of verbal emotional society puts these in the small sort of category we've all heard of that phrase don't sweat the small stuff when it comes to violence and abuse i'm not saying words and language and controlling behavior are small issues in the physical and the sexual you know rapes and sexual assaults are the big stuff they're all big for me but we need to sweat the stuff out and start

to make it clearer you know the links the harms you know and ali talks about it how this culture you know we have half the population scared of men just now and we we hold it within our own i'm quite ashamed of that that you know i've got two doors i mean i mean you could say i suppose like that there is a there's a cultural fear there's also we've heard a lot about what women do when walking down the street at night so you know they've got also men in their life that they're not scared of it's a complicated picture but picture, but do you think we need to go to generalisations to actually change the culture? Because there's always a fear.

You've made a nice documentary, or you've been part of a nice documentary on Radio 4. Is this actually going to reach those that it needs to reach? Of course, you've done this video as well. You know, preaching to the converted or those who think they're converted is one thing, but how do you actually get to those where the problem is? Yeah. You know, the evidence from the don't be that guy campaign suggested that we really got into sports teams we really got into youth groups we created that conversation helping young men

make the links you know we didn't want to shame men and kathy talked about shaming in the last that that was really interesting that last piece she did there we don't want to shame men because we know what happens when you shame men we they push back they get defensive and men for me are allies we need more men um to show the moral courage to speak up on these issues so this film started a conversation and we're now looking at the next the next phase lots of these campaigns they just they get their you know two weeks of fame and then they move on something else you know i'm really keen that we use the messaging from Don't Be That Guy and other campaigns such as the London Mayor's campaign

to start to move it because men are listening, men are talking about these issues now, but a lot of men still lack the courage to actually speak to their friends and peers. And that's where the real reductions in violence and abuse will take place in society, is when I have the courage to challenge a friend. It's not so much strangers. It's that idea. Friends don't let friends sexually harass women. Friends don't let friends whatever.

That's for me is where the power is. But some of these men don't have friends. I mean, some of these men that you're talking about may not be in a group. They may be difficult to reach. They may be people who are alone on the internet a lot of the time. You know, there are certain circumstances that are extremely hard to reach. Yeah. And for me, it's using these films, using these messages to create that male culture where their behaviours are actually a transgression against the norms of masculinity. And it's really challenging. It's really difficult. And we need to just keep going into where, as much as we can, where these groups are, working with the next generation of young men

into schools, into sports teams, into youth clubs. I work in sports teams. I work in youth groups. I work in schools and universities. And it's just dripping this message. Prevention for me is about like a dripping tap, just dripping the messages in, reinforcing the messages, being consistent.

Culture change requires consistency. I sometimes fear that we don't have that consistency in our messaging around prevention. We need to keep moving. When that guy came out, I think we read the room really well. There was a need for a focus on men and it's pleasing to see the likes of the in Manchester we've got Andy Burnham's campaign

the Mayor of London's campaign we've got other campaigns coming out which I'm supporting at this moment in time keeping that consistent message on. I was also going to say as a former police officer of 30 years you'll be aware of huge reviews and reforms being talked about and

in need in the police as well with regards to misogyny and racism. Graham Goulden, it's all we've got time for. The documentary coming up is called Am I That Guy? Thank you to you. Thank you to all of our guests today. And thank you for listening. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Since the war began, my inbox has been flooded. People from Ukraine, Russia and Britain are getting in touch with me. They're telling me about a very different battle, but one that's also having real consequences for the people caught up in it. I'm Marianna Spring, and in this new podcast for Radio 4, War on Truth, I'll be reporting on the extraordinary information war

being waged over Ukraine and hearing from the ordinary people sucked into it. This blatant denial of reality is being waged by trolls, state media, influencers, online and beyond. From BBC Radio 4, War on Truth. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.