Woman's Hour - Ashley James, Nancy Guthrie disappearance, Kinship carers

Episode Date: February 12, 2026

A story gripping headlines across the United States is the disappearance of 84‑year‑old Nancy Guthrie, the mother of NBC News Today anchor Savannah Guthrie. Nancy was abducted from her home in the Catalina Foothills near Tucson, Arizona, in the USA more than a week ago, triggering a massive search and emotional appeals from her family. Clare McDonnell speaks to Claire Moses, a reporter from The New York Times, who has been following the story.Broadcaster, model and activist Ashley James says she’s always been underestimated and often written off as a “bimbo”. But now she’s reclaiming the word as the title of her new book, which explores many of the judgmental labels used to describe women and their life choices. From 'bossy' to 'mumsy' to 'silly girl', Ashley joins Clare to unpack the impact such words can have on women and girls and why she hopes opening up about her own experiences will inspire others to stop shrinking and shake them off.More than 141,000 children are in kinship care in England and Wales. According to new research from the charity Kinship, 40% of kinship carers are forced to claim benefits or increase their benefits when they step in to take on the care of a child from a family member. To explain why some kinship carers want the same parental rights as others in a parental role, like an adoptive parent, Clare is joined by the CEO of Kinship, Lucy Peake and carer Nash, who took on the permanent care of her sister’s children after her sister died.A few years ago, Saaniya Abbas was working as an art director in an advertising agency in Dubai. Today, she is a rising star of comedy, after finding stand-up comedy helped her deal with the end of her marriage. Her tour, Hellarious, has just hit London and she speaks to Clare about writing material based on her life so far.Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Claire MacDonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. It is a mystery that has gripped America, the abduction in the middle of the night of 84-year-old Nancy Guthrie, missing for 11 days now. It's been reported that she was taken by a masked intruder, and no word has been heard from her since. daughter is a household name in the US. Today's show hosts Savannah Guthrie. But so far, her regular public appeals to the kidnappers have yielded nothing. We'll hear from a US journalist

who has been following the case closely. We're also talking about labels on the program today, specifically those used to describe women in a pejorative way. Bossy, tarty, mumsy, silly girl, and worse, of course, my guest, the broadcaster Ashley James has heard most of them. And she's were claiming one of them, Bimbo, as the title of her new book. And I want to hear from you today about some of the labels that you've had to endure. What impact did they have on you? Did they make you shrink yourself down? Or did you show them what you're made of?

Please do get in touch. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour. And of course, you can email us through our website. We'll also hear from kinship carers this morning. That is where a family member steps in to raise a child when their parents are unable to.

They often experience financial difficulty at a time of extreme stress. So today, some are calling for more help from the state and we'll hear from one of them. And comic Sinea Abbas on why failing in life has been the making of her and given her material for her new tour hilarious. Sinea will join me in. the Woman's Hour studio. So lots to look forward to over the next hour. Glad to have your company. Let's start then with this story that's gripping the headlines across the United States. The disappearance of 84-year-old Nancy Guthrie. She is the mother of the NBC News Today anchor Savannah

Guthrie. Nancy was abducted from her home in the Catalina foothills near Tucson, Arizona, in the USA over a week ago now, triggering a massive search and emotional appeals from her A few days ago, her daughter, Savannah Guthrie, released this video on social media appealing to anyone with information. If you see anything, you hear anything, if there's anything at all that seems strange to you, that you report to law enforcement, we are at an hour of desperation. Well, Claire Moses is a reporter with the New York Times and has been following the story and joins me in the studio. Welcome. Thank you. It's understandable, I guess, why this is a reporter. This story has gripped America. You have a household name, her mother's in her 80s.

Tell us how much interest there has been in the States about this over this disappearance. There's been massive interest. It started off somewhat small, more than a week ago, as you said, 11 days ago, when she went missing and people did not really know what to think. It started as a small news story. Savannah Guthrie's mother is missing. As you said, Savannah Guthrie is a household name. name. People watch her on television every single day for many, many years, so they feel close to her. Her mother has been on the show, so they've seen her mother periodically over the years. So it felt really personal immediately. And then as more time passed and more and actually fewer things were known every day, and we still don't know that much, it just became a very big mystery. And mysteries are always gripping. Sadly, this is a sad one.

but we still don't know why she was abducted. We still don't know if it's a ransom situation or if it's something else. We don't know if it's random or if it's somebody she knew. We still know nothing. So there's a lot of interest because it's such a mystery. And it's hard to underestimate, isn't it? A star of her stature in the news orbit, if you will. As you say, she goes into people's homes every single day.

people feel invested in Savannah Guthrie and her story? They do, they do. And Savannah Guthrie also somewhat recently on The Today Show went back to Tucson, Arizona, did a whole item about her hometown. She's proudly from there. I'm sure that locally she is even better known than nationally and she's already very famous. So the personal nature of this, even if you don't know Nancy Guthrie personally, you feel very close to it. It's also something that kind of speaks to the imagination. the thought of anyone's 84-year-old mother being abducted from their home is a horrible thought that will keep you up at night.

And it's also highly unusual, of course. It's very rare that people in their 80s are lifted from their homes in the middle of the night around two in the morning. And there's nothing known about it. So it's unknown. It's both your worst nightmare and it's also so unbelievably rare that all those factors together. make that. It has really captured the nation's attention. And we've had video footage, haven't we, in the last sort of 48 hours of person of interest? So talk to us about that. The authorities released a 44-second clip of doorbell camera from Nancy Guthrie's home. Now,

the camera itself, the Ness camera, was missing. So it had been a big gap in the investigation, of course, because that would have answered a lot of questions. But as you say, with about 48 hours, ago, the authorities released the clip and some stills. And in the clip, we see a person in a ski mask, so hidden face, wearing gloves, and seemingly also carrying a pistol, a gun. So that is kind of all we are going on. It's we don't know who the person is. We don't know what they're doing. We have an idea what they're doing there, but we don't know why they're there. Most of the video is, the person's hand in front of the camera, trying to conceal it, of course. So the only thing we have to go on at this moment is that short clip of a person whose identity,

we don't yet know. And shortly after that, we heard that a man had been detained yesterday, but that person has since been released. That is correct. The authorities detained someone, questioned him, and then pretty quickly released him again, and there have been no further updates about that. So I think it is safe to assume at this moment. in time that that particular person is unrelated.

In an interview with local media, this man said that he had nothing to do with the disappearance. And the authorities in the sheriff's office have released him and have said nothing more about it. As you say, the elements of the story, the well-known daughter, the fact that she's 84 years old, she was taken in the middle of the night and still no word of where she is. The family are very concerned as well, aren't they? because she's on medication, which presumably she didn't take with her. That is correct.

Of course the family is very concerned. As you said, they released multiple videos over the last 10, 11 days. The siblings together, Savannah, who is the famous daughter, has a sister, Annie, and a brother Cameron. And they have appeared in videos together and separate appealing to the public,

appealing to possible abductors. And in it you can see how worried they are, of course. And then, as you said, she needs medication. Nancy Guthrie is mentally very sharp, the sheriff said, so it's not a dementia case. He made that very clear. But she does have physical health challenges, and she needs medication. And the medication was found in the home, together with other belongings, including her phone. She also has a pacemaker, and the pacemaker was disconnected from the app on her phone sometime around two.

in the morning on the night of her disappearance. So it is believable that that's around the time that she was taken. But we don't know anything about her. We don't know anything about her current situation. And we know, though, that there have been ransom demands made. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Some local news outlets as well as TMZ received ransom notes. The problem with that is that we don't yet know the validity of those notes.

The FBI is investigating them, and they have not yet said whether or not they are legitimate or not. They were also asking for Bitcoin in those notes. There were two deadlines mentioned in the ransom notes that the media outlets received. Those deadlines have now passed, and it's still unclear if those notes were legitimate. As is often the case, in cases as high profile as this, you get an awful lot of online. detective work going on. And we have to say that Savannah Guthrie conducted the first ever television interview, didn't she, with Virginia Jufray in the States and other victims as well. There is absolutely no evidence to link the two. But I guess that's a, that just goes to show the kind of

clout she has as a journalist in America. Yeah, she has a major clout. People know her. And then, as we discussed, it's such a mystery that the internet sleuths are obviously sleuthing and trying to connect any dot they can. So one of those dots is that, but there's no, there's just no way of knowing what is behind this particular abduction. And the authorities certainly have not said anything specifically of that nature. How hopeful then finally are investigators that she will be found safe and well, because as you say, it's highly unusual for somebody of this age to be taken and given all of the kind of health issues that you've outlined. As the days past, concern must be growing for her safety.

Of course. Of course concern is growing. But as far as investigators go, it's hard to know what they're thinking. They have said they were still optimistic. A few days ago, the sheriff still said that he believed she was out there. Savannah set the same. But of course, you know, almost 12 days into a disappearance of an 84-year-old woman, it's a very worrisome situation for sure. Thank you so much for coming into the Women's Ashtudio.

a very important update on a story that has been bubbling along for quite some time now, so we thought it was very important to take a look at it and the unusual nature of it. Claire Moses' reporter with The New York Times. Thank you so much for joining us. In a few moments' time here on Woman's Out, I'll be talking to Ashley James about her new book, Bimbo, reclaiming labels that have been attached to women for time immemorial. Lots of you getting in touch with some of the labels that you've had. had to suffer. Growing up, this texter says, my family, especially my mum, always labelled me

loyal. It was supposed to be positive. But over time, it kind of turned into this unspoken rule. Be loyal to your mum. Do the right thing by the family and don't rock the boat. The downside is it made it really hard for me to say no or stand up for myself because I feel like I was betraying the people closest to me, especially if they said they needed me. And honestly, I think that's a big reason. I've been a people pleaser for most of my life. Thank you for getting in touch. And this one from Sarah in Exeter. Morning Sarah.

Sarah says, I've been called strident and robust on more than one occasion at work. I suspect men in my senior leadership position would be called authoritative or commanding. Sarah, thanks for that. 84844. If you want to get in touch with the program,

84844 is the text number. Because we're going to talk about this now with my next guest, Ashley James, who joins me in the studio. Morning, Ashley. How are you? Very well. Thanks so much for coming in. Now, we're going to talk about, amongst other things,

the labels society puts on women and the damage they can do. Broadcaster and DJ and campaigner Ashley James is reclaiming one of them. As we've heard, her book is called Bimbo. And just a warning that some of the words in the discussion you're about to hear will include some terms. Some of you may find offensive. Ashley, welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you for having me. It's a very strong title for a book.

Tell us what that word means to you. and why you decided it had to be the title for your book? I think it's a word that gets, has been thrown at me throughout my teens, 20s, when I'm on this morning. Often if people don't agree with me, they'll go online and say she's just a bimbo. And, you know, I do the show a lot with Nick Ferrari. He would never have his intelligence insulted if people don't agree with his opinion.

So I wanted to have obviously like a very punchy word. But it's not just bimbo. It's all the labels that I. I feel like women are given, whether that's bossy, frigid, tarty, and even into elderhood, you know, like Crone or Hag. So, yeah, I really just wanted to kind of explore how these labels shrink us and keep us small. What was the word then that you heard most? You were labelled with most growing up.

I think it's, I mean, in girlhood it's bossy, right? For most of us, we're called bossy. For teenage years, I'm going to say it's probably either slut or frigid. And this is often like the language that is used, you can't win because you're one or the other. I'd say there's a lot of like shame around sexuality for teenagers. And now, yeah, I'd say probably bimbo is still the prevalent term that is thrown at me. You went to boarding school, didn't you? I did.

And you developed quite early on, you know, fantastic figure. But with that came these labels. Do you detail this in the book? Yeah, so I was 14 when I had a double G chest. And, you know, I remember thinking I couldn't wait to have boobs. It felt like of the very adult aspirational thing to have. And I speak a lot about the hypersexualisation of the female body and the kind of shame that is put on women who have big boobs.

And as a child, because that's what you are when you're 14, and being told that I couldn't wear certain clothes or being told that I had to act and behave a certain way so as not to attract unwanted attention. It's very much that the focus is on the women to control themselves and to control male behaviour as opposed to potentially teaching men and boys not to objectify us.

And those labels that you got from 14, did you believe you were that? I think you do. I just remember wanting to be good. I wanted to, you know, I was also told about, you know, Ashley, you have to choose between beauty and brains. And I really wanted to be brains and I wanted to be taken seriously and I wanted to be respected. So I remember at one point my mum saying to me, like, Ashley, even I don't wear these clothes and I'm 20, whatever, years older than you.

So I think I really did adopt that level of shame and I believe that my body was bad because actually I'd be told I couldn't wear certain tops, but then my friends would put it on and there was no problem with them. So it was a very hard concept. And I also felt shame because it did attract a lot of very much unwanted attention. And I feel like, you know, it wasn't just as a teenager. It carried me through even as a 36, 37-year-old woman who was breastfeeding. There was still that hypersexualisation. Like you shouldn't do it in public. You're just doing it because you want attention.

And it's like, no, we're literally just trying to exist in our bodies. And actually, I speak a lot in the book about my experiences in motherhood. And for me, breastfeeding was like almost a chance to reclaim my body as something. something that wasn't just sexual. And yeah, I just, I explore that throughout the whole journey of girlhood and womanhood. To go back to when you were younger, did you shrink yourself when your mum had those conversations with you? Did you think, well, maybe I won't wear that?

Absolutely. I think for me, like retrospectively, the shrinking starts in girlhood with labels like, don't be bossy. You know, you're being conditioned to behave a certain way. and the whole inspiration behind the book, my daughter's two years old now, and when I look at how she looks at herself in the mirror with love and wonder, and she's so loud,

and I feel like we enter our teenage years and certainly by our 20s, most of us feel that we want to shrink ourselves, whether that's trying to fit into the labels so we avoid shame, or whether that's our physical bodies wanting to shrink, and even feeling like we need to meet another half because we're not whole on our own.

So I think we always are trying to shrink, and hopefully this book helps people kind of reclaim the confidence and find their voice. You're very open in this book about a lot of topics, including sexual assault in the chapter called Silly Girl. Now, that must have been a really hard decision to make to talk about it. Why did you decide to? That was something that I agonised over, actually, because I had several, I don't want to say

minor experiences of sexual assault or harassment because none of it's minor. but then at university I was raped and I've never really talked about it and it actually took me a long time to even accept that what happened wasn't my fault and I thought I couldn't possibly write a book about shame and the fact that women often are made to feel the shame that isn't ours without including it

and actually you know I watched Giselle Pelico so bravely turn up at court every day with her head held high and she said the shame the shame must change sides. And I wanted to include it, even though I still find it really difficult to talk about, to, I suppose, show other people that they're not alone, show how common it is, sadly, but also how so much of the narrative still is on silly girl.

Like, what was she wearing? What did she drink? Even in the court systems, you know, there's still stories of like people looking at someone's sexual history. Why would that matter? So I think as much as I really don't feel comfortable talking about it, I'm trying to show that the shame is not ours. Someone did that to me.

And also it's something that I still think about every day. And it feels like a very big weight to carry by not telling people. So it's out there now. I'm really proud of how I handled it within the book. And I've had so many amazing messages already from people. And I think, you know, for me, because, you know, it was a friend and I'd been at a nightclub, so I was drunk and I was dressed a certain way, I carried that shame because we so often tell girls don't go out like that. You don't want to attract unwanted attention. Make sure you don't drink too much.

And we're almost putting the onus on women and girls to keep themselves safe as opposed to telling men and boys not to rape us. So, yeah, I think it's, I feel very. nervous and very uncomfortable knowing that it's out there but also a massive sense of relief. You stayed friends. He was a friend at the time and you stayed friends with him. Was this a way of trying to convince yourself that what happened wasn't what happened? I think because the labels and the tools that were used to control women around their sexuality, slut shaming and I was so worried about him thinking that I was a slut. I'm sorry for the language, but that is the label of the book. And worried about him telling anyone else, you know, that I was promiscuous.

I felt like if I stayed friends with him, then it was almost like reputational damage. And it only really was a few years later when I told a male friend what had happened. And he was like, you know, that's not your fault. And yeah, and obviously I'm not in touch with him now. And since University we haven't been in touch but I think I just wanted to show that it isn't this like very black and white situation and it's not just dark strangers in alleyways it it's much more complex than that and I think the narrative really needs to change and as jazelle pellico so amazingly did say the shame must change sides and hopefully in bimbo I address that and it's interesting because we started off talking about labels do you think it's

some way the labels you heard up to that point in your life about yourself, fed into your feeling of culpability in that situation? Yeah, absolutely, because we are taught be a good girl. And also a lot of these labels, you can't really, you can't win because they're opposites, right? Because you're, you know, you're either a slut or frigid. So we're kind of, I feel like, giving away our power. Like, these labels are a tool to control us and to keep us in line, but they also strip away our confidence and our sort of ownership in who we are at a time when we're, you know, we're becoming women, we're trying to figure out who we are. And I feel like the double standards, I remember as a teenager, it felt very unfair. The double standards placed on boys and girls, particularly within a very male-dominated boarding school.

I was the first group of girls to start at that school. So there were over 500 boys and 37 girls. and it very much did feel like her boys will be boys. And so girls learn to adapt their behaviour around that. You say you think about that situation every day. How have you, I mean, it sounds like you've got another great male friend who put your head around the, yeah, exactly, put your head around the right way on it. But how have you managed to come to terms with that or have you even?

I haven't, I don't think, how can you come to terms with it? It feels like, especially when I see news articles every day, it feels like there is still no, it feels like the women are on trial and people are more afraid of a woman lying than of a man like assaulting us. And yeah, it's something that's really difficult to get your head around. And I still feel shame and discomfort talking about it. But I also know that it's not my secret anymore. And I want to address this because if God forbid it happened to a friend or, you know, the next generation I'm raising two children, I would want, I would want them to be able to speak. up and I would want to feel like they would be supported. And I think, you know, silence only protects

the perpetrators, not the victims. This is a conversation that may resonate with a lot of people listening. So I just want to say in a few moments of time, I'll be reading out an email address, sorry, website address where you can get help and support, if anything we've been talking about here resonates with you and your life. Ashley, you now have a fantastic life partner. Yeah. which you detail in the book and you talk and you're fantastic two children that you've just talked about. Again, you're very, very honest, which is so healthy about motherhood, your postnatal experience and struggling with your sense of self.

You found adjusting to motherhood really difficult, first of all, didn't you? Yeah, I think actually so many women do, but it feels very much like it's only you when you're going through it. And I think I wanted to be unflinchingly honest about my own experiences to kind of show, number one, how common the experiences are, but also how broken the system of support is. And, you know, I would say, and again, I'm very honest about this in Bimbo, before I was a mum, I would say things like, moms are so negative.

And so then when I found myself on the other side, and my eyes were opened as to maybe why we're struggling, and, you know, I felt I did feel resentment that, Tommy was able to go back to work after two weeks and sort of close the door. And I was sort of trying to juggle both work and raising a child. And I think, you know, the societal expectations, we still, it feels are very much in the 1950s that even though men and women have gained so much quality and women go to work, either because they want to or because not many people can afford to live off one salary and they have to,

we still applaud men for changing nappies or for turning up to the school gates, whereas women are almost like judged or considered just a mum. And that's another thing. Like motherhood is one of the most difficult things that I've ever done. And I really wanted to sort of show that and celebrate the stay-at-home mums, the working mums. But I think so much of the things we struggle with, it's because of the system failing us, or because we're still operating a system like school hours and work hours where it was from a time where women weren't expected to go to work. like how do you, not only if you're lucky enough to afford child care

because we have one of the most expensive child care systems in the world, even if you can afford it, then, you know, you're trying to navigate work hours and school hours, which are contradictory. So I feel like we're all struggling. And that's before we even start to talk about maternity care, which is something else that I'm very open about within. Yeah, well, let's get on to that now,

because you've talked about it's publicly experiencing incontinence after childbirth. I mean, it's a taboo subject. You don't really hear women, a high-profile women like you, talking about this. Why did you want to kind of go, this is the whole experience? I'm laying it all out. So I think, first of all, it is really important to recognise that so many people have amazing childbirth and don't experience any of this. But for me, I felt very fit and healthy.

I was almost looking forward to childbirth to kind of see what it was all about. And I felt like, you know, I've run marathons. I knew how to push my body. I'm very headstrong. I felt like I had a very high pain tolerance, not that I think it should matter what your pain tolerance is. You should be respected with pain. And then my recovery just wasn't straightforward with my first birth. And I had not just incontinence, but also fecal incontinence, piles, prolapse.

And I didn't even know that prolapse was something that especially young women could even have. And all the discussion around a postnatal body seems to be about your weight and whether you want to lose the baby weight and whether you want to lose the baby weight and whether you want to bounce back. And again, it's this idea that the shame doesn't do any justice to women going through postnatal issues because we're not changing the system to look after us better. You know, so many countries like even France across the sea, they have much better postnatal care and postnatal physio available for everyone and you shouldn't have to push. And that is, you know, it is something that so many of us experience and I just don't want it to be to be because I don't, I think it does a disservice to our health.

And that whole thing about almost like pretending that it didn't happen, the only kind of positive self is the self physically before you had children. Yeah, and why is it that I always say I didn't want to bounce back, I wanted to bounce back in, I wanted to feel like my body worked again. And it's very damaging this idea that we should look like we've not had a baby in record time when actually, you know, if I'd have started running, for example, that would have made my prolapse even worse. And I really want to shift the idea that having a baby is just about losing baby weight,

which I think is such a disgusting term in itself, when your body has just done this amazing, miraculous thing. And I think I want the pressure to be off, especially in a world where man bod, or dad bodd, sorry, seem to be, you know. Cute. Yeah, exactly. Oh, look, he's got dad bod. But then, you know, the mother's body is sort of like, oh, she's ruined her body.

or she needs to bounce back and yeah I just want to change the narrative and push for better postnatal support. Here's a question then, do women need to be more honest in the way that you're being and they're kind of not. I mean, I'm a mother of four kids and I didn't have my kids

in the kind of social media generation. I can only imagine what that must be like now. There's a certain level of honesty, but there really isn't. And it's kind of this sort of perfect view that you often, when you flick on and there it all is and perfectly coordinated homes and perfectly presented children.

A little bit of chaos, but not the kind of in the trenches, this is really hard, which is what you detail in your book. Do women need to help themselves more? By being more honest. I think it's up to each individual person. We can't put pressure on individuals

to change a system, but I think the more people that feel comfortable opening up about it, the less taboo. A lot of these very normal things are you know if you go for any other operation you'd usually be told about possible side effects or possible the road to recovery so why is it that anything to do with genitalia is considered so taboo when actually yeah we should be speaking out and we should feel more open and often when I talk about not just the physical struggles but you know the mental struggles that I went through in the first year of motherhood people will often say to me but what about your children what about when they hear that you've talked about you know feelings of regret what will they think and I always say well hopefully if they ever decide to have children they'll know what they might go through or what their partner might go through so we can support them and when I learned the term mattress sense it made me feel like oh there is actually you know it's an identity shift and it's very normal to grieve your own life and it's very normal to be in that temporary space of not quite knowing who you are and also just being exhausted and it's the love for your child that of course keeps you going, but you're not a bad mum or dad if you're experiencing feelings of whether it's, you know,

postnatal depression or whether it's regret. And so I suppose I wanted to shine a light on that so that other people feel less alone because I really did feel very alone during that time. A lot of people do. Listen, a lovely text here from a male listener. Well said, Ashley, such an impressive and important piece from you today. As a man, we need to keep hearing this and be educated by you. And sadly, so many. other people like you. No name on that text. I really appreciate that text.

There's a chapter in my book actually about raising a son. And, yeah, I mean, we always need good male allies. So I'm very grateful for that message. And finally, Ashley, what do you hope other women, girls and men will get and take away from reading your book? I think I want them to recognise that the systems aren't working for us to not feel ashamed anymore. And to not label ourselves, but also each other and sort of to come together. to find our own confidence, but also to make systems better so that we are better supported, so that it's the book I wish I had as a teenager. It's the book I wish I had when I was single in my late 20s,

and it's the book I wish I had as a new mom. So, yeah, I'm very proud of it. Brilliant work. Thank you so much for coming in. Ashley James and her book, Bimbo, is out today. And as I said, if you've been affected by anything you heard in that discussion, you can go to the BBC Actionline website, BBC.com.com.com.com.com. line and there's a long list of very useful links to support so I would recommend you going and taking a look at that and thank you so

much for all of your texts on this on labels I was asked why I was being a little girl in a meeting with an irritated male who disagreed with my perspective I have been labelled as a troublemaker by the male head of

the institution where I work it's not an opinion shared by my female line manager the label has cost me two promotions because I believe I ask questions which push the head beyond his comfort zone. Older women with an opinion are clearly dangerous. Keep those texts coming in on the labels that have come your way and how you've dealt with them. The text number 84844. Thank you. Lots of texts coming in. We'll try and get to as many as we can hear on Woman's Sound. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids.

I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. kid, don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Now, let's talk about kinship carers. More than 141,000 children are in kinship care. in England and Wales. That is children who are looked after by a family member when their parent is no longer able to take care of them. Now, new research from the charity Kinship shows that 40% of those carers are finding themselves needing to claim benefits or increase their benefits

to cover the costs of raising that child. Well, Kinship has launched a campaign asking for kinship carers to have the same parental leave rights as other working parents, including adoptive parents. Delighted to say, I'm joined by Lutuio. Lucy Peake, who's their chief executive, and Nash, who took on the permanent care of her sister's children when tragically a sister died in 2024. Lucy Nash, welcome to Womazar. Thank you.

Thanks so much. Just come into their microphone in that little bit there. That would be absolutely fantastic, Nash. Thank you. Lucy, let's start with you. For those listening who may not be familiar with the term kinship carer, explain what that is, what it covers. So kinship carers are, could be grandparents, aunties, uncles, brothers, sisters,

or close family relatives or friends, who stepped up to raise children, as you said, when their parents aren't able to. So it can be often in a time of crisis. So somebody may have died or they may have gone into prison or somebody's just for whatever reason not able to because of maybe drug and alcohol misuse. And it's a very important role, isn't it? Because you're stepping in to do something

that otherwise, I guess, would cost the state a lot of money because those children would need to be taken care of. I think often kinship carers are getting a phone call or a knock on the door and the question is, will you take these children? If you can't, they will go into the care system

or the baby would be adopted. So often people are going forward very quickly and saying, I will do this. They're doing what we would want in our own family. They're doing the right thing. But kinship carers pay a very high price

for doing that. As you said, often having to give up their jobs, pushed into the benefit system, and they don't get the same financial support as foster carers either. Nash, this is a good, time to bring you in really, really sorry, your sister died, condolences, heartfelt. What happened?

She had three children, didn't she? She had four children. Four children? She had three under the age of 18. She was sadly and very suddenly diagnosed with bowel and liver cancer. That was a diagnosis in January 2024 and immediately came to live with myself and my husband and our children because she needed chemo. She needed treatment and help with her lovely children.

So my sister sadly passed away in the May, so I had five months of sickness. And it was a no-brainer. It was a case of her wanting the children to remain together and also in the care of myself, her sister. So I just found myself at that time navigating an area of my life that I had never been in before. I mean, as siblings, you do sort of communicate, oh, what would you do if, if this, if that, and, you know, talk about wills. But when the reality actually hits, it's very, very difficult. And you go into this sort of lonely, isolating area of a new sort of life that you actually hadn't planned for.

And you're dealing with your own grief as well, while navigating the practicality and, I guess, the emotional support for these children who've lost their mother. Absolutely. as well as I get asked a lot about my own grief, but also I'm having to not only manage my own grief, but also that of my sister's children and my own children also. Kinship carers, excuse me, we, I feel that kinship carers are not recognised in as far as,

it's like Lucy said, we are sort of forced and we step up into a situation that isn't planned, and it's always at a time of crisis. And we are taking on already traumatised children and having to deal with sort of their emotions, their mental well-being, as well as managing our own. So it's huge. It's massive.

So explain to us the range of ages you have in your house now. Oh, goodness. So my younger children are 14 and 7. And my sister's children are 7. So I have to have two 7-year-old girls together who are seven months apart, best of friends one moment and then enemies the next. And then my nephew is nine and my niece is, she'll be 16 next Tuesday actually. So a very wide range range of children.

So all needing different needs at different times and different emotional capabilities and mental abilities. And needing different grief levels also. And just to move on briefly, excuse me, to the practical. side of a life like that. Do you have a big enough car to get them all around in? No. No. So during my sister's diagnosis, she was afforded or she had, I think it's pip, is it a pip payment? She had an assisted car, excuse me. And because of the range of the numbers in our family, we had to get a seven-seater car. But when she

passed away, that car was removed. So then I had to finance a seven-seater car because there's seven members in our household. So that financial burden was placed on myself and my husband. We had to navigate bunk beds and bedroom space and which again, it's absolutely, this is not coming from a place of sort of moaning, but it's coming from a place of reality. And my children having to now share me and their father and their bedrooms and their personal space.

And we want all children. I want my niece and nephew to feel safe. And I want them to feel like it's their home. So it's a, again, I always use that phrase, no brain now. But I can't think of anything else, like literally to say. That's just in my nature to want to keep them very warm and safe. Well, you're a wonderful woman. You really are.

And I know lots of people listening to this will think exactly the same. And just finally, before we go back to Lucy to talk about what kinship care is asking for, what about financially? Did you have to stop work? I mean, what went on in your life with this massive change? I'm still actually asking myself that question because it's only been two years, not even two years. So I have been a midwife for almost 17 years

and my personal situation is slightly different. So you'll find once you sort of navigate the kinship structure, we are all different. I didn't suddenly have the children sort of being asked to live with me. It was a period. It was a process because they were living with me prior to my sister passing away. And then it was a case of applying for an order called a special guardianship order, which was granted last March.

And it was then that I believe the whole situation hit me, if you like. I had what I felt like was an emotional breakdown. And just physically and mentally, I just couldn't cope when I approached my employers with regard. to what my options were with regards to paid time off. It was a just, no, this is our policy. You haven't adopted the children. You haven't. You're not fostering.

It's a private arrangement. So there are no sort of policy documents with regards to paid parent leave. And I was flabbergasted. It was like, what difference, what difference am I doing? I haven't adopted these children, but I will be looking after them as my, own for the going going forward. So the option was unpaid leave or goodbye. Oh yeah, see you later.

Goodness me. Let's pick this up with Lucy. I mean, this is obviously Nash's story is very familiar. How many people are affected in this way? So 45% of kinship carers say they're forced out of work when they step up like Nash did to take the children. And that is pushing them onto the benefit system, as you said, but also increasing stress, anxiety at that. very time that they need to be concentrating on the children. So we know from our research that only 3% of kinship carers were able to take discretionary paid leave. So there is this absurd

gap in the law that needs to be closed. We're calling on the government in the parental leave review to introduce the right to statutory paid time off work for kinship carers like parents get, like adoptive parents get. And that said she could have chosen to adopt these children. That wasn't the right path for her. It was a special guardianship order. But she was doing the same thing. She's committing to these children to love and care for them as long as they need that. She needed that time off work. So we think the government needs to act on this.

You launched this campaign yesterday. I know there was a meeting at Parliament. And you, Lucy, have been campaigning a very long time on this. 24 years, which is a very long time. What kind of response did you get yesterday? Are we any closer to seeing a change? I think people can see that this is absurd. It's shocking.

It is nonsenseless. to push people out of work like being midwives within the NHS. They are priority jobs. We need people like Nash doing her job. We also need people like Nash to take on the children. So we need to make sure that we're supporting them effectively. We're calling for a well-supported kinship care system

that makes sure that we support people throughout their journey. Right at the beginning, they need that immediate time off work to deal with that crisis for themselves and for the children. But they also need a longer period of living. leave so they can make sure that they're focusing on the children, establishing those bonds, that stability the children need. We know enough about secure attachment to know how important it is when children have experienced trauma to have that love and support from somebody who is consistent and will

care for them. So paid leave, and you've just outlined, what else do we need to look at? So we want financial allowances for kinship carers like foster carers get. It costs money to raise a child and Nash has just talked about that. If you're suddenly, you've got less money coming in, but you've got more children, you need to be able to care for them. And we don't want kinship carers to have to go to food banks. That's what they're having to do. They are remorgeting their homes.

They are spending all their savings. We have people who are grandparents who are drawing down their pensions and spending that on raising small children. So people have done everything they should have done. And then the family crisis happens and they do the right thing. and this is where they are paying too high a price. Nash, I read also that, you know, you're entitled to counselling or the children are grief counselling, but it's very limited, isn't it? Is it six sessions?

Absolutely. It's the generic six sessions, but in as far as that in itself, I've had to navigate that. There was no sort of assistance and the charity, the hospice where my sister peacefully passed away, they've been amazing. and they've sort of offered the fostering, sorry, the counselling, the grief counselling to the children. And again, it's at different stages. So it's very challenging.

It's super challenging and sad. Well, listen, thank you so much for coming in and for telling us what's been going on in your life. I know it will resonate with so many people listening and laying out so brilliantly the changes you think we need to make. Nash just finally, how are the family doing? Amazing. I mean, it's chaos. It's such a chaos, but I wouldn't change it for the world. Can I just add about a statistic that I learned yesterday? So in every 100 kinship child that is in the UK, we are saving the government for, is it, £4 million?

So for every hundred children in well-supported kinship care, the state will save $4 million per year. So what we say, it makes sense to invest in well-supported kinship care. Children's outcomes are better and it saves the state money. So why wouldn't we put this right? Thank you both so much for coming in. Lucy Peake, Chief Executive of Kinship Care and Nash as well. Absolute pleasure to meet both of you. We have a spokesperson from the Department of Work and Pensions saying this.

We recognise the important role that kinship careers play. Our parental leave and pay review will consider whether support available for working families meets the needs and others who do not qualify for existing leave and pay entitlements such as kinship carers just to say we did ask for a statement from the NHS but they said they were unable to give us one at this particular moment thank you so much for all of your texts on labels we were talking to ashley james her new book bimbo is out now she talks about the pejorative labels that she's had to live with and changing how women are perceived in society and how we perceive ourselves um this text her first time i've ever messaged i want to

to thank Ashley for honesty. I'm someone who champions women's rights and tries to lift up other women, but I've struggled and been haunted with the fact that I was once sexually assaulted by a male friend, but remained friends with him for a few years post the event. I knew it was wrong, but I didn't want to cause an issue and was frightened. It's the first time I've heard another woman who's had that duality happen, and I feel less alone and shamed by what happened, and I hope it's helped others too. Thank you. Thank you for texting in. And Jamie There's this. Another man listener here to Women's Hour this morning. Thank you, Ashley James. What an amazing person. Your honesty is brave and inspiring. Thank you. And I'm going to try and get to as many of your texts on the labels you've had to live with as well. We'll squeeze a few in before the end of the program. Now, has a failed experience in your life ever led to something incredible, surprising, and maybe even led you down a path to a destination better than where you started? Well, for our next guest, the end of a marriage led to the life-changing discovery that she had a talent for stand-up comedy.

Within a few years, Zania. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.