Woman's Hour - Audio porn, Earthquake impact on women, Author Ayòbámi Adébáyo, A listener on leaving the Church of England

Episode Date: February 9, 2023

The number of women watching porn is on the increase, according to one of the world’s most popular sites. They say around a third of its viewers are female and growing. There’s also a new type of porn that is said to be gaining popularity among some women – audio porn. You might wonder, what it is and why it might appeal to women. Caroline Spiegel is the founder of an erotic audio app called Quinn, one of many apps out there, and Dr Caroline West, consent educator at University of Galway and host of the Glow West sexual wellness podcast.The earthquakes in southern Turkey and northern Syria have killed nearly 16,000 people. As rescuers work to save people still trapped in the rubble, the World Health Organisation has raised concerns that without shelter, water, fuel or electricity, many more lives are at risk. Today the Disasters Emergency Committee launched its appeal to raise funds to provide aid to the survivors. Racha Nasreddine, Director for ActionAid in the Arab Region tells Anita how women and girls are being affected.On yesterday’s Woman’s Hour we briefly discussed the Church of England’s decision not to back a change in teaching to permit clergy to conduct same-sex marriages. Listener Suzanne Elvidge contacted the programme to share her recent letter to her Bishop and her local clergy explaining why she felt she had no choice but to leave the Church after a lifelong membership. She joins Anita to discuss her decision.For our series Girl's World, Ena Miller took her dog-eared teenage diary to a school in Glasgow to talk to Saskia, Francesca and Olivia, who are all 14, about changing attitudes to sex and gender.Six years after her acclaimed debut novel Stay With Me was shortlisted for the Baileys Prize for Women’s Fiction, Nigerian writer Ayòbámi Adébáyo joins Anita to talk about her highly-anticipated second work of fiction, A Spell Of Good Things, a state-of-the-nation story exploring the divide between rich and poor, as Nigeria transitioned back into democracy in 2000.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Once again, I'm caught in the glare of ageism and misogyny that permeates the world we live in. A world that refuses to celebrate women past the age of 45 and feels the need to punish her as she continues to be strong-willed, hard-working and adventurous.

Not my words, as many people who follow me on Instagram thought, including my dad. These are the words of Madonna after the Grammys. Once again, the conversation turned to the way she looks and what she may or may not have had done to her face. So this morning, I want your thoughts about this. Have your experiences of getting older, maybe getting bolder, what have they been like?

Do you find that you have to fight harder to be noticed, stay relevant, feel beautiful, whatever it might be, and why is that? How do you feel about the way you look the older you get? I want your real-world experiences of sexism and misogyny and judgment the older you've got, or maybe you haven't. Be honest with me this morning. When you first noticed those laughter lines, did your heart sink?

Or are you embracing each wrinkle with a sense of pride? And like Madonna, again, not my words, but I'm in full support. Do you look forward to many years of subversive behavior, pushing boundaries, standing up to the patriarchy and most of all, enjoying your life. You can get in touch with me in the usual way, text number 84844. You can also contact me via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email me through the website or you can contact me via WhatsApp or send me a voice note.

You should have this number saved in your phone under Woman's Hour. It's 03700 100 444. Also this morning, I'll be joined by author Ayobami Adebayo about her brilliant new book, A Spell of Good Things. And listener Suzanne Elvidge will be talking to me about her decision to leave the Church of England after a lifelong membership. And of course, I would like to hear from you this morning that text number again 84844. But first, the earthquakes in southern Turkey and northern Syria have killed nearly 16,000 people as rescuers work to save those still trapped in the rubble. The World Health

Organization has raised concerns that without shelter, water, fuel or electricity many people's lives are at risk. Just over an hour ago, the Disasters Emergency Committee launched its appeal to raise funds to provide aid to the survivors. Well, this morning we are going to speak to Rasha Nasruddin, who is the Director for ActionAid in the Arab region, which includes Syria and Jordan, and she's joining me now live from Jordan. Rasha, very good morning. Welcome to Women's Hour. What's the atmosphere like where you are? Good morning and thanks for having me. So yeah, we are managing the action aid response from here, from Jordan, working through our local

partners in northwest Syria. Situation is very, very difficult. Maybe just to set up the scene for you, the area affected in Syria, the northwest of Syria, hosts around 4.2 million people who are mostly, majority are women and children. These people have been multiply displaced multiple times. So they are from the internally displaced people in Syria. They are currently facing harsh weather conditions in addition to an ongoing cholera outbreak. So this earthquake comes in addition to all of the suffering. So it's exacerbating the suffering of these people. Health facilities, aid workers in the area are strained because this area has been an area of conflict. It has a lot of attacks.

These people have lost their livelihoods several times and now they are losing it again. They are losing their loved ones. So it's, I mean, I can't really explain with words, but it's devastating and it's very, very difficult. Again, this earthquake is just adding to the suffering in Syria. I mean, you've worked in many disaster zones. Why does it seem to be the case that there's a bigger impact on women and girls following an actual disaster like this?

I mean, basically, yeah, we've seen that through Action Aid and our response in Haiti and Nepal previously. And now we're seeing it in Syria. Usually, women and girls are the most vulnerable uh they are uh more prone to like uh uh like um they are um usually focused by violence against women it increases in in these times uh for example i'll give you an example in syria families spend their nights on the streets this exposes women and girls their privacy. Health facilities have been affected. Maternity clinics. Pregnant women have no access to health centres and maternity clinics.

Young girls that are menstruating have no access to the right products. They need their privacy. So now, for example, our teams and the local partners we're working with are trying to equip temporary shelters. So to provide some sort of privacy for these families, including women and girls. So basically, again, in Syria, women have been that are affected, have been heads of households also, because this was one of the impacts of war. So now they are also at more pressure. So basically they are more vulnerable. That's why they are more affected.

So there's a need for privacy. And of course, all the things you've mentioned there, if you are pregnant or if you're breastfeeding or if you're menstruating. But what about their safety in the aftermath? How vulnerable will women currently in Syria and Turkey be who are trying to find shelter? Yeah, I think they are extremely vulnerable. This is what I'm trying to say is that

they have lost their houses and some families have spent the nights on the streets. For example, yesterday our partner was saying that there is no availability of tents anymore, so they are trying to equip temporary shelters like schools or unused buildings so that people can stay there. So that is having a huge impact on women because some of them are spending the nights on the streets with everything that will happen around that and the community. So it's a really hard situation. What have you seen? Have you seen anything? Can you give us examples of what you've been hearing about? So basically, we've been hearing about the lack of tents

and the need to open up some temporary shelters. So they are basically, our partners are trying to identify some unused buildings and schools trying to bring like floor mats blankets uh bread and food and water to equip these areas so that they can be used by by specific by specific family other things for example we're hearing is that in syria there is northwest sy, there is a lack of equipment for search and rescue. So they are having, for example, we as ActionAid are providing resources for our partners to rent equipment so that they can help with the search and rescue. Because as you know, in this immediate

response, we need to prioritize saving lives. And this is what we're trying to do. So these are like stories we've been hearing. There's a lack of electricity, for example. So our partners are trying to provide some fuel for medical centres, for these temporary shelters, so that people can have access to electricity. And what can we learn from what's happened in other places and regions that could be applied here to help things improve? I think every disaster comes with its own things, especially, I mean, I don't know if we can answer this question for Syria, because what has happened in Syria with almost 12 years of

conflict and everything that has been, it seems that this earthquake is just adding to the suffering of the people. And what we are seeing there, I mean, because there are like multiple factors impacting people and increasing their suffering. So it's really hard to have like one solution or one learning to bring. What we are trying to prioritize, for example, is the immediate response of heating, blankets, clothes, water, and as I said, search and rescue. And then we try to look immediately after that to provide safety spaces for women and girls and to try to provide also we started providing mobile psychosocial support services because young girls and the children are also hugely impacted so these

are the things that we try also from from other from what we learned from other disasters that these are like the immediate things that we need to be looking at but of course we wait until the the full picture is clear to understand what would come later at the medium and the longer term because you will need also to recover and that's the bigger question for for northwest syria of course and that was going to be my next question just how many women there are on the ground who are part of your team who are part of the search and rescue or as you say the cycle psychosocial support that's needed yeah so uh so so our partners are mainly youth-led organizations and women-led organizations.

So basically, majority of the teams on the ground are youth and women who are working on the ground. So because this is what we work, this is our approach in humanitarian crisis to work mainly with women and with young people so that to empower them so that they can lead the local responses. Rasha Nasruddin, thank you very much for speaking to me this morning. I'm sure we will come back to you again to talk about this and to see how, as you say, through time, how things progress and what the situation is and what's required specifically when it comes to the needs of the women and girls thank you so much for talking thank you for having me um lots of you getting in touch about um my call out this morning this is off the back of

madonna's statements um being defiant in the face of ageism and misogyny after people were speculating about her the way she looks um someone has said here embracing each wrinkle with a sense of pride indeed i'm 69 years old have survived the pandemic and i'm really looking forward to the next decades the wisdom i have to share oh we like this with younger women is priceless and i wouldn't want oh i thought you were going to share it send us your wisdom and i wouldn't want to exchange this for a generic facial expression and no laughter lines for all the tea here here good morning anita embracing all of my 63 years of life lines wrinkles and anything sagging live life give yourself a little bit of kindness every day mine is cake says debbie in her studio and i'm 58 says

someone here pushing 59 i had my first experience of being treated differently because of my age last year when a young male ophthalmologist called me my dear throughout the consultation. I was so shocked. I said nothing. It's happened since. And I've responded and shut it down. But unfortunately, this kind of behavior isn't just for men. I've also received it from young women, too.

Maybe we should ban my dear. Keep your thoughts coming in on this. The text number 8484444 now on to my next item the number of women watching porn is on the increase according to one of the world's most popular sites they say around a third of its viewers are female and that number is growing there's also a new type of porn that's said to be gaining popularity among some women audio porn you might wonder what it is and why it might appeal to women. Well, here's a flavour.

I just got this urge to just risk it all and kiss a woman I just met. I don't know. I don't know what it is, but... You just make me feel like... Like I'm just losing control. Well, that might have woken some of you up. That's from a story called Red Carpet Romance, which is available on the erotic audio app called Quinn. And I spoke to Caroline Spiegel, who's the founder of that app,

just one of many out there, as well as Dr. Caroline West, consent educator at University of Galway and host of the Glow West Sexual Wellness Podcast. I asked her to explain what audio porn is. It's a way of engaging with erotic content just through listening. So we talk about things like visual pleasure, but actually oral pleasure. So A-U-R-A-L, not oral. So we listen to things constantly and we find erotica in so many things. If you think about the sound of kissing and we think about the sounds that are in sex, I think there's a lot of people who are maybe not more or less interested but they're interested in that as an added bonus to

the rest of their pleasure so visual stimulation isn't just the only form of you know engaging with erotic content. Who's listening to it? Everyone it's really really popular over the last few years should I say especially since the pandemic but predominantly women and queer people actually because they're finding a way that they can find representation there outside of mainstream porn which let's be honest you know it's okay in some places but it's not great a representation of different body types and different kinds of pleasure whereas audio porn has more space for representation and for people to fill in the gaps themselves so they can imagine the kind of bodies the kind of looks the kind of clothes everything like that so it's a lot more user-friendly for more than a mainstream porn audience yeah what is it offering um women that

exactly what you're saying that mainstream porn isn't offering them and is it young women um a whole range i think the older generation often get left out of these conversations but you know the rise of stis and the older generation has shown that they're still quite verbally and sexually active so I think it's just that space and reprieve from like there is a lot of misogyny and violence in mainstream porn so it's a bit of a reprieve from from that and how you should look so you know it takes off that that stress about comparison and feeling bad in our bodies and things like that. So if you are in your 40s and 50s and 60s, you know, you don't have to compare yourself to an 18 year old, like perfect body that you're seeing on screen. So I think it's

much more liberating for a lot of people. Yes, the imagination in your head. I'm going to bring in your namesake, Caroline Spiegel. Welcome to Woman's Hour. You decided to set up an audio erotic app. Why? Yeah, so I started Quinn in 2019 when I was a senior at Stanford, and I was studying computer science. I was studying systems like operating systems and compilers and networking. And at the same time in my private life, I was recovering from an eating disorder. And one of the kind of main side effects of the eating disorder was sexual dysfunction and a total loss of libido and normal sexual function. So I kind of started just exploring the whole area of sex. And I found that, you know, the FDA has approved 30 plus medications for sexual dysfunction for men and zero for women.

Since then, I think there's been maybe one. Yeah. So then I kind of just got into erotic content and found audio erotica and fell in love. And that's kind of the origin story. It's like the one thing that worked for me. So what can, what do people get with your, with your app then? They can listen to erotic stories. Yes, exactly. So we call it Forbidden Spotify. Basically, we have a curated selection of creators who make audios. Our average audio is like 20 minutes. It's designed for the listener to orgasm while listening to it. But other than that, it's a lot like a romance novel.

It's like a romance audiobook on steroids into a 20-minute segment that kind of fits into your daily routine. And who are recording them? Who are the people recording these stories? So we have over 60 creators now and each one kind of has their own flair, their own personal brand, sort of like Edward versus Jacob,

you know, the Twilight era. And they each have developed their own little fandom. So a lot of them are actors, they're voice actors, they're content creators. And it's really cool to see. Yeah, you know, some are more like the boyfriend archetype, some are more the bad boy, you know. Can you give us an example of a story or a scenario? Yeah, absolutely. So for example, we have a wildly popular creator named Anani Fun. And he has a series called Executive Lounge. And in Executive Lounge, he creates this sort of fantasy world where female executives get

taken to a retreat. And at the retreat, there are men who, you know, treat them to various sexual things with like a ton of consent, enthusiastic consent and all sorts of things. But each episode of Executive Lounge is, you know, he's your chauffeur driving you to the event. He's your masseuse. He's your concierge and so on. And it's an extremely popular series. And there's just something about the intimacy of it just being in your head, your ears, and just for you. The sort of intimacy of audio adds a different dimension. I mean, I think also, you know, I always say that audio is actually more visual than visual content because I remember the first time. I mean, everyone does as a teenager, as a child, you're reading your favorite book and you have the most vibrant, insane imagery in your mind and you're escaping to this other world. Right. And, and then maybe you see the movie of your favorite book and you're like, uh, this is not at all what it

looks like. This is wrong. Right. This is not what I imagined. Um, and so I, I think that principle applies here where your imagination is more powerful and kind of infinitely like moldable. And your porn becomes customized to what you want. You can be anywhere with whoever you want. And that's really cool. I'm quite interested in your own journey to get to this point of setting up the app. What did you find that you didn't want to get you to this place where you decided this is it? Audio erotica is what works for me. What were you experiencing that you thought this is not it? And actually, there is a whole market that

people, particularly women, are responding to better than visual porn. Well, yeah, one interesting statistic is that one out of every 50 porn site subscriptions are made by women, but nine out of every 10 romance novel purchases are made by women, which is kind of breathtaking, right? And there's this myth that's perpetuated that women are less sexual than men, or they're inherently sort of prude or not interested in sex, but that's not really it. They're just looking for something different. They're looking for something different in their sexual content. And one thing, the lack of words in pornography, you know, actually when you're falling in love with someone, when you're even having casual

sex with someone, you're talking to them. You guys have a rapport, a relationship, flirting, connection, life, you know? And with porn, sometimes it feels that we're dropped in the middle of nowhere with no context. And you're kind of like, why am I in a Reno Airbnb in 2001 with two strangers? It's like totally not the fantasy, right? That a lot of women are looking for. What does that tell us, Caroline West?

What Caroline has just told us, that statistic, nine out of 10 romance novels, women, one out of 50 women signing up to porn to watch it. Yeah, I think it tells us that there's such a huge gap there that a lot of mainstream porn is just not working for women. So it's like, how do we allow women to explore their sexuality in a lovely, healthy way, in a way that makes them feel good, makes them feel good about their body and their sexuality?

And that's missing from a lot of porn when, you know, we hear derogatory names being used. There's racist terms that are still quite prevalent. So, you know, those erotic stories and audio as well just allow women to create a different world and as the other caroline said there like the power of words is just so important you know in mainstream porn you might hear words like oh dirty girl or whatever and it's like there's probably about 10 words in the whole scene if you're lucky and most of them are probably not very flattering words so i think it's important to enjoy that power of the word of the the spoken word. I mean, especially in Ireland, like we're great storytellers, you know, we like talking. So it's no surprise then that that would also extend to erotic storytelling.

You know, storytelling is what kept us going as humans as we sat around the campfire back in caveman times and we talked to each other. You know, it's a fundamental part of being human. And I feel like that's been missed out on in so many erotic depictions so it's like why not expand the universe the the erotic universe to include all these things because I think porn is very limiting sometimes you know it's it doesn't allow for maybe some unrealistic scenarios that could be there that could be the most amazing thing in the world and I spoke to someone before um who edits erotic um stories and she was talking there's a rise in dinosaur erotic which i find absolutely fascinating but you're not going to see that in mainstream porn unless somebody dressed up in a dinosaur suit or something like that but it's great to explore

all those other possibilities beyond penis goes in vagina and happy days i'm just thinking of jurassic park in a completely new way now. There's a lot of concern, and we talk about it on Woman's Hour a lot, about the damaging effects that porn may be having on young people and the link to low self-esteem, harmful views around sex and relationships and the way women are treated. And there's a report out this week that says children were being exposed to porn as young as nine years old.

What's the likelihood that we can get young men interested in this type of material instead? Caroline Spiegel or either of you. Get you both talking about this. What do you think? How can we get blokes into this? I think working in consent education, I think the key always comes down to sex education at a younger age because all sex education really is is just about respect and feeling good in your body and being able to communicate your needs and desires with other people and keep that respect going like that's that's all consent is it just means you're not hurting someone else and you're not feeling entitled to their body so we embed that in people at a very young age they're more

likely to think actually more likely to reject what they see in mainstream porn and say we know that's not real whereas now because we don't talk about porn you have those young people at 9 10 11 who don't have the critical thinking skills to process what they're seeing and might think oh this is how you have sex whereas if we have decent sex education people watch porn at a later age and think that's not realistic i'm not going to try and copy that which is fantastic and then it just becomes like the fast and the furious no one copies that and thinks that that's real so that sex education piece really comes into it and that allows people to build their own sexual wellness which includes the audio erotica. Caroline Spiegel? Yeah it's a really tough kind of

problem situation and I think there are a few pieces. One, I just want to make it clear that I in no way think that like sex workers are the problem or responsible in any way for the kind of perverse incentives of these big conglomerates right behind mainstream pornography. So I just wanted to say that. And and then secondly, as far as the young people watching porn, I think what's so crazy and I was watching some videos about this, is a lot of young women who are now in their, you know, 20s, maybe they're finally in, you know, long term relationships. They're realizing that a lot of their early sexual experiences weren't really fully consensual. And there was a big feeling of entitlement to their bodies, right, by their partners. And so what happens is not only, like, do you have men watching this content that can be super harmful, you also have women not watching anything, not having any resources, right?

And these are exaggerations and hyperboles because, you know, I think it's like 20 to 30 percent of Pornhub's audience is women. So there are women watching porn, but obviously we know that it's a male dominated viewership. So, so you have this like knowledge gap plus the entitlement that they're getting from mainstream porn. And so let's say, even if we kept everything the same, but we gave women more resources, maybe they would go into that sexual interaction and be like, I know what I want. Right. I know it feels good to my body. And so you just kind of have to think of it in this full circle way of these are people that are going to be entering into relationships

with each other, right? We want everyone to be able to like express their needs and have fulfilling sex. And I really do feel that like this was a piece that got left behind, you know, like the porn wars of the feminist revolution were like this massive thing. And we never really settled it. We never really figured out, you know, like what we as like a society stand for when it comes to porn and what our

values are and what our sexual ethics are. So it's a really exciting time to be solving this problem. So how likely are we going to get men listening to the audio porn that you're producing? Well, I think it's likely. Honestly, I do, because I know a lot of women bring their boyfriends onto Quinn and are like, listen to this. I think men want to please women. You know, they're dying to figure out what their partners want.

But I also don't think that men need to listen to it for it to positively affect them. Right. Like if you're in a relationship with a woman who's listening, she knows more about herself. She has, you know, she's more like sexually empowered. And so they benefit from that. So whether they're the one listening or if they're in a relationship with someone listening, both are good. That was me talking to Caroline Spiegel and Caroline West about audio porn and your thoughts are coming in. That text number again, 84844. I wasn't quite ready for that audio whilst driving, says Mooji. Hashtag audio porn, hashtag Radio 4 erotica. Linda says, that sounded like Darth Vader, not titillating at all. Someone else has said here, I love your article today.

Yes, audio does it for me. I'm married and just deciding whether to begin a relationship with another man I knew 30 plus years ago. I have a body that reflects my age and no, I can still have fun. Good for you. And someone else, Tanya in Dover says, I'm in two minds. On the one hand, I love the idea of listening to this on the train or the bus and no one knowing. On the other hand, the sound of people kissing is so awful. All clicking and slurping no it's like listening to someone chewing your thoughts please keep them coming in also we started the program by talking about madonna she's um made a statement on instagram about people judging her for the way she looks this is after she appeared at the grammys she wrote on her instagram post many

people choose to only talk about close-up photos of me taken with a long lens camera by a press photographer that would distort anyone's face. Once again, I'm caught in the glare of ageism and misogyny that permeates the world we live in. So, of course, I wanted your thoughts. Loads of you have something to say on this. Kelly says, Madonna has a point. I also think if she appeared on stage in a natural state, she'd be bashed for looking old. It's time women were seen for their talents and not how they look. This would not be a conversation she'd be bashed for looking old it's time women were seen for their talents and not how they look this would not be a conversation we'd be having if a man of talent

was in her place uh sheila in essex has said ageism yes not just my dear but when trying to get a doctor's appointment and describing symptoms to a receptionist she said ah bless oh sorry that makes me feel funny just that phrase uh you could say this is empathy, but I feel patronised. I'm 72, but active, trying to look presentable, stand up bright and smile, but otherwise don't really mind how I look. Marion says, I shall be 82 in two months. I'm wrinkled and slower than I was, but keeping a sunny outlook seems to earn me compliments and disbelief of my age personally they matter more than the years lived your thoughts please

on anything you're hearing on the program today more than welcome 84844 you can email me via the website and our whatsapp is at bbc woman's hour now the church of england synod is voting today on proposals for clergy to bless same-sex marriages, having already ruled out conducting those marriages. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, has asked each member of the Synod to vote with their spirit-inspired consciences. We touched on this topic and listener Suzanne Elvidge contacted us to share her recent letter to the bishop and her local clergy, explaining why she felt she had no choice but to leave the church after a lifelong membership. And Suzanne joins me now to tell us more. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Suzanne. So why did you make the decision to leave the Church of England? Thank you for having me. I got married last year to a wonderful woman called

Dee after being widowed from my late husband five years ago and everybody in the village assumed that I was going to get married in the village church because they know that I'm very much involved in it it's opposite my house and everybody was so surprised when I couldn't get married there and it's just been gradually dawning on me that I'm in a place in the church that it feels like it doesn't really want me that That's not reflecting on my congregation and my clergy at all. They're fantastically inclusive. But I realised one day when I was going to a friend's funeral that I could have a funeral for my wife in the church, but I wouldn't be allowed to marry her there. And that was kind of the, that was the final thing for me how difficult has this decision been it's been a really difficult decision I've been involved in the Anglican

church since my teens when I started to go to invited to a youth group there with my friends I've been brought up a Methodist but to be be honest, the Anglican Church of the Better Youth group. And it's just been it's been a big part of my life since then. And it's been a really, really painful decision. And so you wrote the letter. Yes. What was the reaction? I haven't had any reaction at all.

My clergy had a copy of the letter and they're really really sad they're friends of mine as well and they're they're heartbroken but they are very very supportive of my decision the church for you was it's it's about faith but it's also about your community isn't it this is a place that you were a really active member tell us about the role that you played in your local church oh it's it's it's community it's family i'm part of the team that opened the church in the morning we have a we had a cafe church um service every month and I was part of the team where we made breakfast for the whole congregation I read in services I wrote pieces for parts of services and so it was yeah it was very much community so it's a huge decision not just because you know we're talking about your faith this is your life and your lifestyle so yeah it's not very very I can imagine it must be very emotional I want to try and understand I know you said you know you when you realize that you could have your part your wife's

funeral there but you couldn't get married in the church that's really where you started thinking about this just what were the conversations with your wife around this and just how deeply did you have to go within yourself to make this decision yeah my wife isn't a member of the church but she's very supportive of my part there and my role there and she very much she understands how hard this is and it's it's something that I have been thinking about over the last few years it's something that I have been thinking about over the last few years it's something that's just been bubbling away um I was involved in the living in love and faith process and so that was very much a coming out process um and so it's been bubbling away but

it's just recently got to the point that it was also, when I was listening to talks about the idea of blessing single-sex marriages, which is what they're talking about at the Synod, it said that they're blessing the individuals, not the marriage. And that just felt like another blow that my marriage isn't respected, isn't glorified by the church. And it just makes me feel less of a person because I'm a bisexual woman. It's who I am. It's part of how I was made, if you like. So you're removing yourself from an institution that doesn't want to recognize you in the way that you want to be recognized.

But what does it say about your faith? institution that doesn't want to recognize you in the way that you want to be recognized but what does it say about your faith have um yeah sorry that's that feels like a different thing i'm considering at the moment where i go next whether i join another church or not join another denomination or not and there are there's a Methodist church in the village, there's a Unitarian church in another village locally, and they're both welcoming to the LGBTQ community. So that's something I'm thinking about. But I'm feeling a bit bruised,

and I kind of need a little bit of space at the moment. For yourself? Yeah, that's it, and to kind of recover and reassess. I mean I guess people listening to this particularly those who belong to churches will feel very sad to hear you say that that you feel bruised what's been the reaction from your local congregation have they rallied around you do they understand? They understand they've rallied around me when I mentioned to friends that i was coming on radio for this morning i've just had a barrage of texts supporting me i'm part of a of an

organization called open sheffield which is lgbtq friendly churches in the area and they've just sent me so much love so much support um i've not, I don't think I've had a single pushback. I've just had people saying, yeah, this is sad. We understand what we feel. Do you understand that those in the church might support individuals, but for some this is also a question of scripture and they just can't support same-sex marriage in the church? Yeah, I understand it.

People have different perspectives. And the Church of England is a global church. It covers a huge variety of different sets of people. And I understand and I accept it. It's not something that's going to be resolved easily and I know that by accepting me others feel marginalized by accepting then I feel marginalized and I don't think there is a simple answer um I've tried to I've been involved with campaign for equal marriage I've tried to kind of make changes from within. And for me, this is a very personal decision. And it's just to protect my faith, to protect my mental health. It's a step I've had to take. And I feel for the people at the Synod today discussing it. It's not going to be easy, but this is what needed to happen for me. The vote on whether to allow the Church of England clergy

to bless same-sex couples was delayed. As you know, it's now due to happen today. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, has already said last month that he welcomes the proposals but will not personally carry them out due to his pastoral responsibility for the whole communion. How do you feel about that? That made me feel very sad.

It made me feel that he's... It's really, really hard and I do feel for him because he can't please everyone. But for me, that just felt like another rejection, I guess. So where do you go from here? What happens? You still have your faith and you you've lost this sense of community that you had so what do you do how do you now reconcile where you are and how do you move forward

that's a difficult one I going to talk to a lot of people I'm going to talk to local faith communities I'm gonna just take time to sit down and work out what happens next um and knowing that i've got the support from people around me uh really helps that process we've just had a message in from someone saying morning the church of england should be fully welcoming everyone no matter who they are what gender they are or their sexuality this is the 21st century no wonder people won't go to church. I'm an active Christian and I'm appalled by this attitude. That's from one of our listeners. What do you think?

That is very moving, very, very moving. Yeah, it makes me feel that there are people out there who understand. Well, it feels like you wanted to have the platform to talk about this because you reached out to us, Susan, which we are grateful for. We fully actively encourage people to hear things on the programme and talk to us about it. Why did you want to speak about it? Because I wanted people to know that this is having an impact on the church, that I spoke to a gay friend last week and I've heard from them this week to say that he's also taking a step to leave. And it concerns me that there's going to be a swathe of liberal LGBTQ affirming people who are going to leave.

And I worry that it's going to make the people who don't leave feel less accepted and less comfortable. And that really worries me. It also, and a friend of mine who's a lesbian and has children says that her children don't want to be part of the church because the church doesn't accept their mum. And it just worries me that there's going to be a lot of people leaving and it's that's really sad because that's a loss to the community as a whole. Susan Elvidge thank you so much for speaking to me about this this morning your thoughts on that

or anything you're hearing on the program more than welcome 84844 is the number to text. And as I said, if you do hear something on the programme and you have an experience that you want to share with us, then please feel free to email us by going to the website and we could get you on the programme as well. Lots of you getting in touch about Madonna and growing old gracefully, disgracefully, however you want to call it. Love the idea...

Oh, I've jumped to an audio porn one. I know lots of you getting in touch about audio porn as well. Oh, how I laughed this morning. I choked on my toast. The oral porn excerpt was the funniest thing. That's A-U-R-A-L. Funniest thing on Radio 4 for some time, slurping. Nobody has ever kissed me while orderly drooling.

More on porn before we get to Madonna. No problem with other adults watching porn, but I have never found sex a spectator sport. In the same way, I wouldn't find it stimulating watching someone eat an ice cream or a box of chocolates. Oh well, each to his own, says MM. Anita, I'm a 62-year-old groovy granny and I listened to the updated Lady Chatterley

on BBC Sounds yesterday and the first time swimming in the sea with Connie in part two was beautiful and erotic, manly and no nonsense. Oliver, played by Mark Holgrave, was amazing. Don't think men will get it as they seem to need or have been trained to respond to visual cues. Maybe women have better imaginations and you're enjoying the show. That's good to hear. Nice to have you with us.

And on to growing old. Maggie, who's 57, says my wrinkles, sags, bags and scars are the map of a life well lived. Therefore, I embrace them. And another one here on Madonna. I'm a member of Growing Old Disgracefully, a national network for older women. I love this. Our members embrace growing old,

determined to have our lives full of meaning and support each other to get the most out of the rest of our lives. A positive outlook is what keeps you young at heart 84844 the number to text now we talk about girls all the time on this program but we don't often hear from them from our series uh girls world um enna miller took her dog-eared teenage diary to a school in glasgow to talkia, Francesca and Olivia who are all 14 about changing attitudes to sex and gender. I was 13 to 15 when I wrote this diary. I used to try and write it every day and there was one thing that I wanted to talk to you about that I think is very different

to when I was younger to when you're younger. So 11th of July 1991. Dear diary, for the first time in my life I have actually spoken to a lesbian and gay person. They didn't even look lesbian or gay until cousin George told me after they had left. I met them about eight o'clock to 8.30. It's now nine o'clock and I'm watching Cheers. Now the thing that I thought about that when I read that was the conversation about sexuality is very different to the conversation that you're having now it's so normalized now and I'm grateful for that because everyone's a person no matter like their skin color their sexuality you know their gender doesn't They're just people. And I think just recognizing that and not just like when you're speaking to someone,

don't just look at the color of their skin or focus on the fact that they're gay or something when you're speaking to them. Just talk to them because you're interested in what they're saying because there's no point in stereotyping or just being judgmental even if you don't even know the person.

Someone tells me, yeah, I use they, them or trans or whatever. I'll be like, yeah, yeah, I use they, them or trans or whatever, I'll be like, yeah, go, I support you. I'll use your pronouns because that's, like, what they want me to use. I'll be like, yeah, definitely. Seska, you're agreeing? Yeah, I think it's just basic human decency just to, like, respect who anyone wants to be.

If someone wants to go by different pronouns, just go for it and don't be bothered by it because it's none of your business who they want to be. I feel like everyone's changing. So everyone's finding out who they are now because obviously you're getting older. So I feel like it's kind of getting more normalised because obviously there's a lot more people that are coming out or whatever because they feel like I'm old enough now and there's more people

that will understand and at our school there's a lot of support for people who are in the LGBT community. Not everyone in our school like thinks the same way we do because they grow up in different households and maybe their parents aren't as accepting and as welcoming as our parents have been because our parents are quite open about this stuff. That was Girls World there. Now, lots of your comments coming in here about Madonna and ageing. North of 50, says Judy, best years yet. Woman's Hour, re-ageing.

I'm 80 and I'm so relieved not to be judged by my feminine appearance anymore. A release from the sexual attractiveness standardization. I'm a person, not a sex object. We seem to have completely lost the distinction between love and lust. And that's from Sue in Inverness. Now onto my final guest today.

Six years after her acclaimed, heart-rending debut novel, Stay With Me, that was shortlisted for the Bailey's Prize for Women's Fiction, amongst a whole host of other awards, the Nigerian writer Ayobami Adebayo that deals with political corruption, social injustice, and the divide between rich and poor. It's about expectations, and it's about choices, and it's told through the eyes of various characters. Eniola, a boy whose family has lost everything after his father lost his job, and Wirola, a junior doctor who is about to get married. Their paths cross at the tailors, where Wirola and her mother get their dresses made, and Eniola sweeps up. But to talk about it in further detail, I'm delighted to say that Ayobami joins me in the studio. Welcome back.

Thank you so much. Six years ago was the last time you were here. A lot has happened since you were last here. Marriage, baby, your second book, today's publication date. Huge congratulations. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Always. It's an outstanding read. There's so much that you cover in it. But I want to start by asking where the idea for this book came from.

Yes. So it started in, I think, 2013. I was coming back from work and it's in a city in Nigeria where I'd grown up and there was some traffic so we took a detour and I ended up in a neighborhood that was really quite impoverished and I was quite startled not just by the neighborhood but my own lack of awareness it was the first time I was there and I wouldn't have thought that something like that was so close to my own home and for weeks and weeks I was really thinking about I think just my own blindness to my own surrounding and some of the sharp divides that existed and at some point in that year I began writing what will become this novel. Where did you start? Who did you start with? Because there's so many characters in this

and their lives intersect and interlink. But where did you start? I mean, you start with Eniola, the boy who I mentioned, but who was the first character? He was the first character. He was the first character for me. He's such, I like him a lot. He has such a passion for education he wants to go to school he wants to have a chance in life but his family is at a very peculiar place his father who used to be a teacher has just lost his job you know because the government is essentially not prioritizing education anymore and this this happened in Nigeria? Yes this happened in the early 2000s that a generation of teachers were retrenched and sacked and there were a few

strikes after that you know teacher strikes yeah. And what happened how did that impact people's lives? In so many ways and that's one of the things I think that this novel tries to tease out, particularly what kind of message you're sending to a younger generation when you don't prioritize, say, the welfare of teachers and people who serve the community, really. I think the East family in particular has a lot of difficulty as a result. They're not really able to get back on their feet yeah after that the father goes into depression they sink further and further into poverty yeah and you see how a family who have lost everything become completely dehumanized by that experience but you humanize their experience oh thank you um i really hope to do that, you know, with fiction that I start with really a character as a person and their internal aspirations and their internal life. And I think that's often what makes it a compelling read. I hope that's what makes it a compelling read. And we see the consequences of them falling into poverty and the choices or lack of choices that Eniola has and how he gets

drawn into crime. Yes, essentially that, you know, when a community doesn't provide the necessary safety nets, I think that you're leaving people with very, very few choices to make. And as happens with him, he chooses what he thinks is the only available option. Well, they're offering him food. Yes. And when you're starving, food is good food. Food is food. Yeah. I want to go to the other end of the extreme to your other central character, the story of Wurola. She's a junior doctor in Nigeria. You come from a family of doctors. Your twin sister and mother are both doctors. So how much of their experience feeds into her storyline?

Yeah, my sister and my mom. My sister was, she practiced in Nigeria for a bit. And I think in our junior year, what I was really struck by was just how demanding the job is, you know, and how exhausting it can be. And I think that sort of applies anywhere in the world. And I wanted to capture a bit of that, just how relentless, you know, the demands are, and how necessary it is to have the necessary, you know, the support that a hospital system needs for people who work within it,

whether they're nurses or doctors, to just be able to function also as human beings i mean i want to talk about the women in this book because i really i mean i resonated with warola because she's an eldest daughter in a family where there's a huge amount of expectation on her she is about to get married to the right boy in a from the right family yeah and he he beats her and she is in conflict because what does she do? And it makes you wonder about the choice or lack of choices women have when there's a huge amount of expectation on you. Yes, absolutely. There are, I think, roughly three generations of women in this book

and Wura Ola is right at the centre of that. And I wanted to look at the contradictions in the way she exists in the world. She's accomplished all these things professionally. But she's coming to realize that some people don't necessarily respect her because she's not married. And that validation of having a man in her life is going to give her a certain level of respect in society and that's one of the things she's dealing with like all my life this was what I really wanted and now I've accomplished it and I'm getting this message in that it's not enough and I think she's in a place where she has to separate who she is and what she wants from what is expected of her. And I think that that's something that many women have to figure out, you know.

And I think it's a journey. I'm not sure it ever really stops. Yeah, I mean, and the previous generation before that, her mother and the pragmatism of that generation. The mother is one of a few sisters and they all married well because they knew that that was what was going to help them survive. And then the gold, she saves gold for her daughter to pass on. and they all married well because they knew that that was what was going to help them survive.

And then the gold, she saves gold for her daughter to pass on. Let's talk a bit about the importance of the gold. Yes. So there's this expression called vex money in Nigerian communities. And it's really the idea that a woman should always have money that she can live with if she has to. And I think the older generation in this book, there's a pragmatism like you mentioned that they have that i think we're a lot it's looking at marriage as a love match i think they were more i think a little more cynical about you know and they always wanted to have a backup plan and that's part of what the gold is about that if everything fails you will have this as a way out um and absolutely and she hands it to her daughter and you've you got this book over the line a week before you gave birth i guess

can we talk about just the process of how you managed to do that because that's incredible yeah i mean i think um a due date is a really firm deadline I think it's a very very firm deadline so I'd been working on it for quite a while and I'd begun the edits by then with my editors and I really just thought to myself I don't know if I will be able to work after the baby comes and I wanted to finish it before then um and by the time the baby came I was very happy that I had finished it because I don't know how they've done it in at least in the first few months after his arrival yeah and how the last 11 months been ah they've been wonderful they've been very very intense but yeah ultimately they've been wonderful now we know because you talk about it

in the book we talk the expectations in Nigerian society, very similar to Indian society, doctor, lawyer, solicitor, accountant, tick, tick, tick. These are all the jobs that you should do. Now your mum is a doctor. You went off and became a writer. Yes. There's this joke in Nigerian families,

it might apply in Indian families too, where you have four career options. You're either a doctor or a lawyer, an engineer, or you're a disgrace to your family. I hope I'm not. But I think my immediate family was very supportive. I had uncles and aunts who were not very sure and made sure that I knew that, why are you not studying medicine? But I think it's worked out mostly.

And yeah, I'm very happy with the path I've chosen. Yeah, no, we are all, all those of us who devour your books, very happy with the path you've chosen. I want to ask you very quickly about a quote that you opened the book with. I'm going to read it out. When an elephant walks over a hard rock outcrop, we do not see his footprints. When a buffalo walks over a hard rock outcrop, we do not see his footprints. What does it mean? And why did you choose to include that? Yeah, so it's from a really, a book from the 60s, footprints when a buffalo walks over a hard rock outcrop we do not see his footprints what does it mean and why did you choose to include that yes so it's from a really um a book from the 60s by another Nigerian writer and it's it's really about consequence that sometimes um the fact that

certain things are not immediately visible does not mean that their impact is not felt you know and that's you know part of what this novel is about that there are all these intersections between our lives and the lives of other people that we exist in society with and we might not necessarily always see the threads but they're always there you know and um i hope that we realise that we have a collective responsibility to each other as a result. What do you hope that this book will achieve, apart from giving the readers great pleasure? Oh, I hope it does that.

I hope that everyone who reads it thinks a little more about their neighbours, about people in their community, and that they might not necessarily think that they share anything with. I hope that it engenders conversations about necessary public infrastructure, about teachers and how they're treated, about health workers and how they're treated, about all the people who serve us in our communities.

And power, isn't it? And power, yes. And its ability to corrupt and how men will do whatever it takes to attain that power. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I want to say thank you so much for coming in to speak to me. Thank you.

On publication day as well. Yes. Best of luck with it. Thank you. And you are welcome any time to come and talk to us about it. It won't be another six years. Are you already working on the next book? Yes, I am. All right. Well, we won't ask you. We won you already working on the next book yes i am all

right well we won't ask you we won't get a tease we'll we'll focus on this one and then when you come back we'll talk about the next one um thank you so much uh for speaking to me this morning um your thoughts coming in on what we've been talking about all day lots of thoughts about the church of england the conversation i had with suzanne Sue says, I have left my church after 25 years because the vicar and the deacon support conversion therapy. I'm deeply hurt and adrift. Someone else says, I will forever be grateful to a Church of England vicar who over a decade ago secretly blessed my civil partnership

with another woman in a church. It makes a huge difference to our lives to share love with our faith. Things should change or the church will slowly dissolve and kane has said while everyone should be welcomed and treated equally by the church i feel there is general misunderstanding about the purpose of the church we are not called to support the church rather we are called to submit to follow and serve the work and purpose of jesus christ we do this by committing ourselves to the church when it comes to the biblical teaching on the topic of sexual immorality the church has often failed individuals with same-sex attraction and not welcomed them that this is not resolved by adapting theology to the loudest lobby

but by talking compassionately and seeking to live a holy life um um your thoughts on all of the all of your thoughts have been very welcome today so much interaction i'm going to end with something from marianne who said, yesterday I heard British Airways that I got a job as cabin crew. I'm 68. I'm very excited. Congratulations to you. Join me tomorrow for Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Hello there. I'm Simon Armitage and I've just walked into my garden shed with a chair in my hand. It's my writing shed and the chair is for my guests for this series of The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed, including Ian McKellen, Pam Ayres, Loyal Karner and Lucy Beaumont. So pull up a virtual seat next to me and listen in on my chit chats with the great and good of this world people who've stopped by for a natter and a cup of tea but often end up bearing a little bit of their soul or spilling the beans if you'll allow me several good old-fashioned mixed metaphors for

a moment listen through the keyhole by searching for the poetet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.