Woman's Hour - Author, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie

Episode Date: June 3, 2021

Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is the author of novels including 'Purple Hibiscus', 'Half of a Yellow Sun', which won the Orange Prize (now called the Women’s Prize for Fiction), and 'Americanah', which won the US National Book Critics Circle Award. Chimamanda has also delivered two landmark TED Talks: The Danger of A Single Story, and We Should All Be Feminists, which started a worldwide conversation about feminism and was published as a book in 2014. She has now written a more personal book. On 10 June 2020 her father died suddenly in Nigeria. A self-confessed daddy’s girl, she has now remembered her father in a tribute, 'Notes on Grief'. Her mother has since also died. How do you deal with double heartbreak? Chimamanda joins Emma to examine the layers of loss and the nature of grief.Lord Michael Heseltine, who was Deputy Prime Minister in the mid-nineties, says he's had to attend a House of Lords course to do with what's right and what's wrong when it comes to conduct between colleagues, especially between men and women. The training is called "Valuing Everyone". The House of Lords has been very firm about this online course on inappropriate behaviour and prejudice, saying all peers must attend. Lord Heseltine was sent a reminder that he MUST complete it, which seems to have aggravated him a great deal. He’s here, and so is Wera (pron: VERA) Hobhouse, Lib Dem MP. In the House of Commons, the course isn't mandatory for MPs.Parm Sandhu grew up in the Midlands - a child of immigrants from the Punjab whose main ambition for her she says was to become an ‘obedient wife’. Forced into an arranged marriage at 16 she later fled to London and in 1989 joined the police. In her memoir ‘Black and Blue: One Woman’s Story of policing’ which is out next week, she tells her story of her thirty years in the Metropolitan police - rising through the ranks from a WPC to Chief Superintendent and becoming New Scotland Yard’s most senior ethnic minority woman in the force. She tells us her 30 year career was marred by repeated racism and sexism and a charge of gross misconduct which she was later cleared of. This led to her bringing an employment tribunal claim against the force and reaching a financial settlement with them last year. The sun is out and if you’re looking out your summer dresses and skirts you might also be weighing up the state of your skin after months of slobbing at home in your lockdown comfies. Sales of personal grooming products like deodorant, skincare products and razors went down during the pandemic so will we be embracing the natural look? Or maybe you already do as a member of the hairy legs club? We talk to the stand-up comedian, Ashley Storrie about her beauty regime and also to George Driver, the acting Beauty Director of ELLE UK. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie Interviewed Guest: Michael Heseltine Interviewed Guest: Wera Hobhouse Interviewed Guest: Parm Sandhu Interviewed Guest: Ashley Storrie Interviewed Guest: George Driver

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Today we are joined by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, the author of Purple Hibiscus, Half of a Yellow Sun and Americana and two TED Talks that went global. But her latest book concerns something completely different, grief, and is based on her deeply personal experience of losing her father suddenly last year in the middle of the pandemic. I'll talk to her shortly, but one of the stories in the book is about how she decided to pay tribute to her dad by customising a t-shirt with the words, her father's daughter, fitting for a self-confessed daddy's girl. She says the experience of trying to pay tribute allowed her to finally understand why people get tattoos.

And what I want to ask you today is how have you celebrated or marked the life of a loved one? What are the different ways that you have paid tribute to them? It could be building something, designing something, arranging an event. Tell me, and in the process of sharing with us this morning, you're also remembering them, whoever they are. I was only thinking about this earlier this week

because I got the news that I lost my godmother. She's 92, an absolute tour de force in my life. But I was thinking, apart from blowing up a fabulous photo of her and putting it on the wall and framing it, that perhaps I'll throw an afternoon tea on account of her sweet tooth in her memory. But what about you? What is it that you have done to commemorate those loved ones in your life?

What's been the fitting tribute? Text me on 84844 or on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or email us your stories and experiences through our website. Also on today's programme, we're going to hear from the former most senior ethnic minority woman in the police force about why she believes the police is still institutionally racist. Also hearing from the former Deputy Prime Minister, Lord Heseltine, who will be joining me to discuss his huge frustration with the course that he's been forced to go on alongside all the other peers in the House of Lords about conduct between colleagues, particularly between men and women. And let's talk about your feet and legs, shall we? Since the sun came out, many of us are seeing them again for the first time in quite a while.

Sales of personal grooming products like deodorants, skincare products, razors, they all went down during the pandemic. So are we embracing a more natural vibe? Personally, I'm just hot, which quite frankly is nice after being so cold for so long. But we'll get into all of that and more throughout the programme. So stay with us. But in a year where so many have lost so many, the award-winning and globally acclaimed author Chimamande Ngoje Adichie has turned her hand to writing a very powerful book about how grief feels. That's because last June, her beloved father died suddenly and she wasn't with him.

A self-confessed daddy's girl, her raw account is called simply Notes on Grief. And she joins us now. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for joining us to talk about this. And it's different talking about this than writing on it. But you write so powerfully

but I understand since you wrote this book about your father I understand that your mother died suddenly in March this year as well and I'm so incredibly sorry if I may say that. Thank you, thank you, I appreciate that. And we'll come on to actually I know we will what people say and what you found about that but I wanted to start by asking how you deal with with double heartbreak like that because a lot of people have been through that experience it actually isn't uncommon when one parent goes for another to go in quick succession I don't know how I think I'm still in a process of dealing with it I was thinking about it recently and I thought one of the ways that I can articulate it

is to say that since my mother died and my mother died on my father's birthday, I feel as though I'm living in a novel whose plot I don't believe because it just seems to me so unlikely. And I was very close to my parents, and my parents were very close to each other. And, you know, there's a strange feeling of sort of being on board, of no longer knowing sort of what direction to go, if that makes sense. And just really just sort of just not knowing. I'm learning so much about grief and how little I knew about it

and how much we assume about grief until we have actually experienced grief. Yes. And also, a lot of us know that the worst day is ahead of us but you can't prepare for it can you? No I don't think anyone can ever prepare for it. In my case my father was 88 and in good health for his age and so we all thought we had time. I mean my brother said after my father died he said I thought daddy was 90s material. We all thought that my dad was 90s material. And my mother, I just didn't, I mean, we'd lost my father. We were all in just such deep mourning.

And we were preparing for something called the Iyi Puapua ceremony, which is Ibu for removing your sort your traditional morning clothes. And it was supposed to be in April. And we had been talking about it with my mother. And then she died in March. And so, I'm sorry, I don't even remember what the question was. No, it's about can you prepare? And of course, we should also make the point that you were, because of the pandemic, you weren't in Nigeria with your dad or with your family last year you weren't

able to go and was it different with your mum were you there yes I was in Lagos and my mother was in our ancestral hometown so I was I was in Nigeria so when she died the next day I was off to my hometown but really the question of preparing, there's something interesting about, I think, being alive in the world, knowing that we all will die, but still always being surprised by death. And I think even for people who have long-term illnesses, there's still, death is just such a final end. It's so final that, and it's such an, it's so much the antithesis of life that it invariably comes with a measure of surprise. There's, I think it's impossible really for one to be prepared, fully prepared for the loss of a person one loves.

There's three words that really hit me right at the beginning of the book, where you say when you've got the news about your dad, because the book is about that and the grief there. And obviously what's happened since now, we're going to reflect on with your mother, but you say, I came undone. And it just hit me, that phrase, undone. I really did. I found that it was the one word to describe it. And I actually don't entirely remember sort of the physical manifestation of this becoming undone, except that my daughter, who at the time was four, told me about it the next day. She said, Mama, you scared me. And I said, well, what do you mean? And then she actually

demonstrated. She got down on the floor and she started banging the floor. And then she started sort of mimicking rolling on the floor. And all of these things apparently I did after I got the phone call. I do remember just feeling the sense of almost a weightlessness because what it meant at that moment was that the life that I had known, my entire life was now gone. I mean, because my father was such a central part of my life in shaping me. I was so close to him. I, you know, not only was I a daddy's girl, I considered my father, my friend, in a way, my, my argument partner, who, you know, who really in many ways propped me up. I often say that the reason I'm not afraid of the disapproval of men is because of my father. The reason that I sort of walk through life not feeling afraid,

and I say this because I know that so many girls are raised with, the world I think raises girls to sort of cater to boys and men in a way, in so many ways. And I think because of my father, I was spared that. That's very interesting because I also know one of the lines in there, which will speak to many, is that you say, his pride in me mattered more than anyone else's. Yes, yes, I am. But of course, it's so strange now that I've lost my mother. I kind of want to go back and edit that book and say, well, his pride and my mother's pride,

because I don't want to feel that I'm somehow shortchanged my my wonderful mother. You know, of course not. And I think to come to how what you're describing about how grief actually feels, we can get to, as I say, about language and how you cope. But you also talk about it being heaviest in the morning, that when you wake up, it's like you can forget for a moment, some people describe it as, and then it hits you again. And I think what I got from your book is it's so physical. Yes, I was surprised by how physical grief is

and how physical it feels. And I also was stunned by how cliches really come alive. I mean, in some ways, there is a reason that cliches are cliches, because one's heart is, in fact, heavy. It really is heavy in a literal way. It is heavy. And it really does, in fact, feel as though one is in a dream that one is wanting to wake up from. And, you know, I cried quite a bit and I was surprised at how my sides hurt. And then my brother said to me, well, your sides hurt because you've been crying and we cry with our muscles. And I thought, really? I mean, I just hadn't really thought about all those things. But also I think it's, apart from the physicality, it's also how I found myself grasping for language

and for words to try and give voice to what I'm feeling. And increasingly, I feel that I'm at a loss. I feel that I still haven't quite been able to articulate what the emotions are. That, for example, there is something more hollow than sorrow, but I don't know the name for it, but I can tell you that I felt it. Although I know a friend sent you a line from one of your novels about grief. You wrote, grief is a celebration of love. Those who could feel real grief were lucky to have been loved. Did that still ring true to you reading back your own words about before you knew what this grief was like? It was quite painful for me reading that when my friend sent it to me shortly after my father died. But I do think it's true. I think when you're deep inside of grief, especially when it's sort of early, it's difficult to sit back and say, well, you know what? I'm able to grieve because I was fortunate to have loved.

It's difficult to do that because the only thing that you can see is your pain. But it is in fact true. And I do believe it, that there is a sense in which we are fortunate to be able to grieve because grief is about love. We would not grieve so deeply if we had not loved very deeply. And isn't it funny though as well, and I've been thinking about this myself this week, how laughter is the other side of that because of that love in some ways, with the people that you're trying to go through it with and when remembering the person that you've lost, because there is so much laughter with that love as well. And just talking about you not

necessarily remembering what you did in that moment it did make me laugh because one of your family members said you better not get news bad news in public because you take your clothes off apparently I'm nice um I apparently I tore off my house coat and I think I might also have torn off my my night shirt because this was during lockdown and I was just sort of always at home in nightwear. Weren't we all? And apparently it turns out that there was a pile of my clothing on the floor, which my brother then noticed and said to me, well, you know, now we know how you react to bad news.

We have to be very careful where we give you bad news. But it's also interesting how humour is part of grief. And there are times when I feel something close to guilt, when I say to myself, you're laughing. You're laughing, you know, daddy died, mommy died, you can't possibly be laughing. But it's part of our remembering, my siblings and me. And, you know, we laugh remembering things that my parents do, but often the laughter ends in tears. Yes. Well, you also say about a particular laugh. This really struck me as well that you had with your daddy and that actually you won't do again. Yes, I'll never laugh that laugh again.

And it's how I've come to think of grief. It's the nevers that never has come to stay in your life I'll never laugh that laugh again I'll never there's also a particular I think tone that I had with my mother when we disagreed um and I'm just never it's it was a specific tone for my mother for disagreeing with my mother and I'm just never going to have that tone in my voice again well there's no one else you can say it to like that. No, no. I completely recognize that. It's so specific. And I just wonder then about tone and language. For instance, I'm Jewish and the Jewish tradition, when someone loses someone, you say to them, I'm so sorry, and I wish you long life. It's just this phrase that you trot out. And it's useful in one way, because it's part of the ritual. It's part of the infrastructure we've put around death.

But I'm not sure it actually means anything to some people. And therefore, should you say it? So what did you come to about when you thought about what you'd said to people before and what you think is helpful to actually say now? Oh, I'm so annoyed with myself for some of the things I said. I think that I must have come across as incredibly smug about how grief should be. You know, I would say to people, I'm so sorry,

turn to your memories, hold on to your memories. I don't think I said things like, oh, they're in a better place, which people say quite a bit and which I find myself thinking, well, how would you know that? Right. And what I've found really comforting is just I feel as though the simpler the expression, the better. But at the same time, people are kind. People are uncomfortable because death is such a difficult subject. And so when people say these things, it's coming from kindness. But when you're in a place of grief, often angry grief. The other thing I was thinking about is that grief has made me quite thin skinned. So I'm very quick to get very annoyed by, you know, when people say to me, oh, your father

was 88. And I think so effing what? It's not about how old he was. It's about how loved he was. I find it moving when people just say, I'm sorry. I found it quite comforting when people said to me, I don't know what to say to you. Because to me, they too were overwhelmed by what I was overwhelmed by, just the enormity of my loss. And so in that, I took comfort. But really, people who knew my father, they really comforted me when they just told me stories about him, what they remembered about him. But at the same time, you know, it's, I mean, I'm

upset about the things that people, some people have said to me, but I recognize that I too have said those things to people in the past. And now I think I want to be a lot more intentional about my compassion. And so going forward, I'm just going to say I'm so sorry. And I know it's difficult. I cannot presume to know that the person who's died is in a better place. I cannot say to a person who's grieving, well, the person you lost lived for so many years. Therefore, celebrate their life.

I mean, when you're immersed in grief, you're not thinking about celebrating life. You're thinking about what you've lost. You're thinking about what you'll never have. But yet at the same time, and this is what I've asked our listeners today, and we've got some wonderful messages coming in, you did think of a way to pay tribute,

not necessarily celebrate per se, but this T-shirt that I was mentioning that you went online and created with this commemoration for your father. And tell us about that. What were you trying to do there? Oh, I was trying to hold on. I mean, and that actually came from this sinking sense of loss. And so I would wake up and think, daddy's gone and grief is telling me it's past. And I'm saying, no, no, it's present. I want to hold on.

And so I started to design these t-shirts and put my father's initials on them and awards that said her father's daughter. And it kind of, I found it very calming, very soothing. And I think there's a part of me that because I had lost my father, I felt this urge to tell the world that I was his daughter. And it made me become a lot more understanding of, you know, when people get tattoos of people they love,

it's just this desire to, you want to hold on, you want to proclaim this love. You know, you want to, I guess, I don't know if, I wouldn't say celebrate. I'm hoping that I can get to a point where I can, in fact, celebrate my father's life. I don't think I'm there yet. And your mother now as well. Yes, yes. Chimamanda, I'm so sorry again for your loss. And also, though, very thankful that you've managed to put pen to paper and put a lot of this into words because I hadn't read anything quite like it before. And a description of how grief feels as well as what then happens when you're going through the different stages of it.

And it's lovely to talk to you this morning. Thank you. Thank you for having me. The book is called Notes on Grief. Many messages coming in. Just want to read from Miranda who says, looking forward to listening to this conversation. I lost my wonderful mum when she was only 71. She was a musician, a knitter, a baker,

and mostly a wonderful woman loved by many. I bake to remember her. What else have you been doing? Tracing family trees, I'm noticing here, an insight into making films, telling family stories, pushing them down. Very big themes coming through.

Keep those messages coming in on 84844 or on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, a patent waste of time. That's how Lord Michael Heseltine, former Deputy Prime Minister, describes a House of Lords course he's been forced to complete that aims to explain what's right and wrong when it comes to conduct between colleagues, especially men and women. of this online course saying all peers must attend. Lord Heseltine was sent a reminder that he must complete it. Lord Heseltine is with us, as is Vera Hobhouse, Liberal Democrat MP and the party's spokesperson for women and equalities.

Lord Heseltine, thanks for joining us. Why are you so annoyed about this? I was annoyed because I got this letter telling me that I hadn't signed up to this course. Well, it's perfectly true, I hadn't. And at that time I was in hospital having had a new knee. But it then went on to say that if I didn't sign up, then I would be at risk of losing parliamentary privileges,

access to the Lords and that sort of thing. And it then went on to say that if I told anybody, this again was an offence. And I was appalled that someone should think that you can treat a member of the House of Lords to this sort of technique and keep it quiet and private. So I rang a few friends in the Lords who had actually undergone the experience, to which they said, Michael, it's a complete waste of time. Don't make a fuss. Just get on that. Let it happen and forget it. Well, maybe I would have done that if I had actually known about it in the early stages. But my colleagues who took the view I've described had not had this letter.

And it was the letter that triggered my indignation. I discovered, because it was revealed in the press, that some 60 members of the House of Lords had also not signed up to this thing, including the very distinguished Betty Budva, the ex-speaker of the House of Commons, who was actually seriously ill with a heart condition. So anyway, the thing has escalated. I was going to say, your issue there, so there's two issues. One is about being compelled to do this

and what you've described. But I also know that when you did complete the course, as you put it, you don't think this would sort it out, the Conservative MP Rob Roberts was suspended for six weeks, having been found to have sexually harassed a member of staff, repeated and unwanted sexual advances towards a former member of staff, for which he has apologised and he's been suspended. But you don't actually think this course would actually stop that behaviour, do you? No, I don't. And indeed, look, you've said something important and I agree. First of all, the House of Commons, it is not compulsory to go through this particular procedure. It's a voluntary course. But, look, let's come to the chase.

We all know that this sort of abuse happens. It is deplorable. It should be reacted to with vigor, and let's not have any question about that. But the question is whether subjecting these sort of people to the anodyne platitudes which consist of this course would make any difference to them. And that was the question I asked towards the end of the course. The evil man in it was Lord Adams, an actor who was playing this part. And I said to the invigilator, I said, do you actually think that Lord Adams would have made any difference to his behavioural pattern if he'd been subjected to this course? And of course,

the answer is no. And that's at the heart of it. I mean, we should say in 2019, there was an inquiry into harassment in the House of Lords carried out by Naomi Ellenbogen QC. And she explicitly highlighted that this course was necessary. And as you've pointed out, Lord Heseltine, it's not compulsory for MPs in the House of Commons. It's compulsory for employees of the estate, I believe. Vera Hop House is on the line. That's the point here, Vera. It's cost a lot of money. And Lord Hesittine doesn't think it's going to have the desired effect.

Well, first of all, it does cost money. It costs money because ultimately a lot of people work on the Parliamentary estate. And therefore, I would say if it does actually stop behaviour that intimidates particularly our young staff, and for me, it was very much a course for me as the employer, understanding that a lot of the time we employ very young people,

very talented, very ambitious. And the course that I attended two years ago, and I assume it's something very similar, was about seeing a young employee being completely demoralized, coming first in, very, very motivated, very fired up. And then a live example, it was, of course, acted of a young person being completely demoralized and suffering from mental health and ultimately not being able to work.

Now, if a course like this makes us listen up and understand, not just men, also women. I look at myself. I employ younger people than myself. I know that I don't have to do it. MPs don't have to do it. And the key word you're saying there is if. What is the evidence? And it's a very important question. What is the evidence that this course, which I've not done, but Lord Heseltine describes as anodyne and wouldn't be the thing to stop somebody from doing this in the first place.

And as I say, we've only got an example just from last week about an MP being suspended. I don't know if he did the course or not, but he's apologised. What do we know that this would, how do we know that this would work? These things are long term and they're about culture change. I think we all need to learn and listen up. I think there might be a generational thing here as well, that people who are in position of power don't necessarily want to be told what to do. And sometimes we do actually have to listen to our employees and those people that we employ or which are not in the position of power of how we come across and how it feels like being employed by them. And if it improves relationships between staff and MPs and indeed between younger and older MPs and whatever it is, it can only be a good thing. And yes, sometimes we as MPs can be a little bit pompous and then nobody tells me what to do. But actually, I think it's important to recognise that something has been going wrong and we need to do everything to improve past failings and make an effort to change.

Make an effort to change. Lord Heseltine, a generational issue perhaps as well. What do you make of that? I'm hoping we've got to get your line. Hello, Lord Heseltine. Oh, I do apologise. We will just get that line back up. I'm sure he heard a bit of that and if not, I'll paraphrase it back. Do you think it should be compulsory for MPs, Vera Hobhouse? Well, I thought we were all compelled,

but we were all asked to do it and I went for it. No, no, I know that, but I'm telling you the status at the moment is it's compulsory for Lords, it isn't for MPs. It sounds like you would support that is it's compulsory for lords. It isn't for MPs. It sounds like you would support that it should be compulsory for MPs. We've got a statement from the House of Commons saying value everyone training.

That's the name of it. It's mandatory for House of Commons staff, but not MPs. Should it be? Well, I think, again, if it's mandatory for one group, then it should be mandatory for everybody. OK, there you go. Clear answer. Lord Heseltine's back on the line there. I'm sorry if you couldn't hear some of what Vera Hobhouse was saying, but she was saying this is going to take time.

This course is something that requires cultural change. Perhaps there's a generational difference here in the view of the effectiveness of this course, which might take time to seed in. And it's about people in power making an effort. What you make of that lord hazeltine well look some of us have quite a lot of experience of what needs to be done because we have a commercial relationship where these things are happening and there's no doubt at all and this was flavored in the in the response of the peers when i took the course. The young lady concerned, I think she was called Jess, another actress, should have had the confidence to know how to react to Lord Adams' advances. And she should have had the confidence to know that there was an HR department to whom she could turn.

And that should have been part of her induction into employment in the House of Lords. And certainly, in my commercial understanding of this, companies have got very detailed machinery, which everybody knows about. And another anxiety I have about this course is that it could be seen as a substitute. The idea that these noxious people are going to change their habits if they go through this course can be paraded as a sort of, look, we've done our best. Just to say, and you did say this earlier, the people that you're naming are fictitious in this course, and it's a point of being illustrative. But what you're saying there actually speaks to what we've read about in, for instance,

I don't know if people remember this, but it's worth reminding our listeners. In 2017, a spreadsheet came to light about 40 Conservative MPs accused of such things. And people, staffers who've spoken out, even one, another one who's come forward this week who worked for that Conservative MP, Rob Roberts, has said that she feels that the system is failing her, that the system isn't set up around MPs and peers to make sure what you're saying, which should be the case in places of work, is in place. So in lieu of that, do you not think this could have some merit? None at all. It just merely acts as an excuse for not putting the proper system in place. So that's the issue for you. Vera Hobhouse. So first of all, I appreciate Lord Hesselstein's view on this, but junior staff often fear that speaking up will damage their careers. So we have to be aware of all of that and listening to the other side and spending two hours of being made aware of how it feels like for the other side, I think is not a waste of time or money. And indeed, it shouldn't replace processes and robust processes in place,

but it's additional to it. And I found it incredibly helpful. But it's still not necessarily going to solve the problem. Let me ask you both. I mean, I understand about cultural things, but this is a real concern that you'll both share to make sure that the issue does improve. And as I keep saying, we've got such a recent example of something here, while this course has been available, and only last week. What would you say, Lord Hazeltine, should be in place, perhaps in addition, or as you would say, in replacement of this course? proper HR machine with identifiable managers to whom the offended party knows they have an immediate right of access and they should use it. Do you think, just to build on that case from last week, there have been calls for the Conservative MP to actually be made to resign?

There is no mechanism for that at the moment. You can't expect me to comment on an individual case about which I have no knowledge. But my point being is you talk about systems, and at the moment that's one of the systems, isn't it, Vera Hobhouse, that people are concerned about, that if you do raise your voice, that there isn't actually a mechanism to get rid of that person as well. Indeed, we need to have a process into which people have confidence.

And too often it looks like the people who are not empowered don't have confidence in the process. So we have to ask those people of what would be the process that would give them confidence. And that, again, is about listening very carefully to the other side and not assuming things that I think we are in no position to assume. Lord Heseltine, Vera Hobhouse, thank you very much. The House of Lords said this value everyone training is an important strand of the work within Parliament to ensure that everyone here is able to recognise bullying, harassment and sexual misconduct and feels confident taking action to prevent and tackle it.

And the House of Commons making that point that it's not mandatory for MPs, but it is for staff, but saying the participation rate is high. The training was brought in in May 2019 following a publication of a separate Dame Laura Cox report. You may have views on that based on your own working experiences. And of course, please feel free to share them. 84844 is the number that you need to get in touch. A message here. Why do the women in the House of Commons have to know that the system's for making complaints? The men should be made more aware of their behaviour.

Get real, says Pat, about this in the direction of Lord Heseltine. More messages coming in on that. And just to say, yesterday we had an enormous reaction from so many of you about the pressures and the politics of motherhood. It was a very special programme indeed. If you want to catch back up on that, and thank you for all of your contributions, you can do so on BBC Sounds. I just wanted to flag that as a few people have been in touch to say, I didn't hear all of it. And I'm going to tell you that you can go back and hear all of it. But let me tell you about Palm Sandhu. She grew up in the Midlands, a child of immigrants from the Punjab whose main ambition for her, she says, was to be and become an obedient wife. She fled home to London in 1989, joined the police. And in her memoir, Black and Blue, One Woman's Story of Policing, which is out next week, she tells her story of 30 years in the Metropolitan Police, rising through the ranks to chief superintendent and becoming New Scotland Yard's most senior ethnic minority woman in the

force. She says her 30-year career was marred by repeated racism and sexism and a charge of gross misconduct, which she was later cleared of. This led to her bringing an employment tribunal claim against the force and reaching a financial settlement with them last year. I spoke to Palm Sandhu just before coming on air and started by asking why she wanted to join the police. I had been talking to a friend of mine who was a black police officer who went into how challenging it was but how rewarding it was and I felt that I had something to give and I actually did want to make a difference and I thought that perhaps if I joined the organisation, I could be part of the change and part of that difference. It was not something your parents wanted you to do. They had other ideas, didn't they?

Yes, they did. Unfortunately, I had a forced marriage that was arranged when I was 15. And by the time I was 16, I was living with a man that I had never met before, who couldn't speak English. I had nothing in common with. And so my parents' expectations was that I would be that wife, the mother, do as I was told and live in that sort of confinement. How did you get free of that? And when I was just coming up to 21, I had my first son. And as soon as he was born, I realised it wasn't fair on him to be brought up in that environment. And I wanted something better for my child. So that was really the thing that made me change and think about where I was and what I was doing. And as a result of that, I left that family environment and reinvented myself in London. And joined the police.

Yeah, another challenge. How conscious were you of your gender and your race when you joined the police? Or how conscious perhaps were you made to feel of it? Initially, when I first joined, I knew that there would be issues. And I discussed it with my immediate family, my brother and some of my close friends. And the advice I was getting was don't join, don't join. You're a woman, you're small, you know, you like your hair, you like your makeup type thing, you're not going to last. But I am one of these people. And I don't see myself as a victim. I don't see myself as a survivor. I see myself as a fighter. And I took on that challenge, knowing that there would be, you know, difficult times. But I was happy to do

that. When you talk about the challenge, I mean, in your book, you talk about some of the things like the initiation ceremonies. Could you give us some detail of that? Yeah. So when I first joined, one of the initiation ceremonies for female officers, and they called female officers plonks as a derogatory term. And what year are we talking? In the 1990s. One of the initiation ceremonies for female officers was to turn them upside down and get the station stamps that was used for posts and things and actually stamp their bottoms. And if you couldn't get to their bum, then you would stamp their breasts, which is a horrific, terrifying issue. Because if you're cornered in a room and you've got 20 or 30 men, you're the only woman, there's no support, there's no help. You know, you've got all these people's hands on you. It's just absolutely frightening and terrifying. But you managed to avoid that particular ceremony?

I was so scared. I was so, so scared. And I thought I was going to be attacked because it is an attack. I managed to stand my ground and I managed to threaten the individuals who were trying to do this to me. I stood there and I said, if you lay your hands on me, if you touch me, there is going to be trouble. And I managed to hold my ground and sort of argue it off. And I don't know how, to this day, I don't know how I did it, but I managed to get through that day and they never, ever threatened me with it again. I mean, you rose through the ranks. Obviously, I'm sure many stories along the way of what you were working on

and your attitudes that got you there, not least, I'm sure, attitudes like that to try and stand your ground and resist certain things that were expected of you and what you say were expected of you. But it seems just, if I was to put it like this, and you tell us more, that each time you were promoted, there seemed to be an incident. There seemed to be an issue against you. What was going on there? I worked really hard. And there are many other people within the metropolitan place who work hard. So I managed to get myself up to a level where I could take the exams, I would pass the exams, I'd go for the interviews. But every time I got or I tried to get to that next level,

there would be some sort of an attack on my credibility, on my work ethic, stories, false stories were leaked to the press to undermine me. And it was just a catalogue of different things that tested me, that tested me and pushed me. I've lost count of how many times I went for promotion and the person who is more senior than me would say, well, you're not quite ready because you need development in, you need development in this or that. And the number of times that I was developed, it's just ludicrous because they could then put that on their own application forms to say, I am mentoring, I am developing a black officer, an Asian officer, a woman officer. I got used so many times where I was actually good enough

and I would never put myself forward if I didn't feel that I could do the job. And what do you think was the motivation from those, as you put it, testing you? I think it was a direct attempt to stop me from progressing. And unfortunately, what happens in the police service, in the Metropolitan Police Service, is that you're welcome to join. The recruits are, you know, there's a lot of black and Asian officers who are joining now, and you're welcome to join at those lower ranks. As soon as you start asking for promotion, or proving that you have the ability to get promoted, that's when the challenges start and that's when the difficulties arise. And this is why you said and you think

the force is racist. I think the force is institutionally racist. I would like to make it clear, though, there are a lot of officers who are not racist, who are good and who are there for the right reasons and work incredibly hard. But there is a core of officers who are racist and there are policies that are institutionally racist that will affect people like me of colour and also female officers. A statement from the Metropolitan Police, part of it that I think is relevant to read here in light of what we were saying each time you promoted. In the statement they say,

We recognise that black, Asian and minority ethnic officers are almost twice as likely as their non-black, Asian and minority ethnic colleagues to be referred into the misconduct process. This is of real concern and we are making considerable efforts to tackle this alongside national policing colleagues. We've introduced a process to help us better understand the reasons for this disproportionality. It has resulted in fewer black, Asian and minority ethnic and in fewer black, Asian and minority ethnic and non-black, Asian and minority ethnic officers entering the misconduct process,

but we are carrying out further work and analysis. What do you make of that? It's nothing new. That has been going on for the last 10, 20 years. It's something that I highlighted in my service because you are, it's either two or three times more likely to be investigated. Now, when I say investigated, this isn't a letter from the member of the public saying I was stopped

and searched and it wasn't right. These are your colleagues complaining about you. So these are internal complaints. When you are in that investigation process, you are three times more likely to be sacked if you are of colour. So it's not just being investigated, it's the outcome at the end of that investigation. This is nothing new. I've lost count of how many reports we've had saying, yes, there is a problem, yes, we're going to do something about it. It's let's write another report, let's write another report,

but nobody's actually doing anything about it. There's no activity. Well, of course, it's been more than two decades since the McPherson report into the murder of Stephen Lawrence, which concluded that the force was institutionally racist. What is your evidence to say that it hasn't made the strides that it needs to? Of course, you've got your own experience here, but I'm obviously minded to bring up the Commissioner.

Crested Dick has agreed to hire 40% of new recruits from ethnic minority backgrounds. What do you think about positive discrimination? I think that positive discrimination is wrong and it's illegal and it's illegal for a reason. If you're giving a person a job based on their skill set, that's fine. But if you're giving a job based on skin colour, that's wrong. What you should be doing and what Cressida should be doing is looking after the people she's already got. There are people who are joining in droves. Why not nurture the skill set and the people that she's already got in the organisation rather than bringing more people in? The issue that the Metropolitan Police and other police services have got is that revolving door.

People are coming into the organisation. They're staying a year, two years, five years, and they are either leaving voluntarily or they're being forced out. Stop the revolving door, nurture the staff you've got, look after the staff you've got, and it will then affect how you deal with your communities. It will have that positive impact on the communities as well. If you can't look after your staff, you're not going to have a positive impact or put, you know, trust and confidence with the communities as well. If you can't look after your staff, you're not going to have a positive impact or, you know, trust and confidence with the communities either. And from the forces point of view, they are saying that they can apply the existing equal merit provision more routinely to police officer recruitment for a time limited period in order to expedite the entry of more applicants from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds.

There's a part of the statement here which says, the commissioner, talking about Cressida Dick, her record on issues of race and discrimination speaks for itself. She's deeply committed to continuing to build a service that reflects those it serves. If she was listening now, what would you want to say to her? Now you're on the other side of the force. Well, I've actually had that conversation with her and I feel that the commissioner has failed.

She's failed people like me. She's failed me. Because what's happened is, yes, you're getting the people into the organisation, but Krista, you're not looking after them. You're not looking after them and you're not nurturing your own. And you're specifically talking here when you say, you know, you attest, you allege that she has failed people like yourself, and we'll come to the action that you took in a moment, because of the way other police officers treat those from a minority ethnic background, or because of the way the public treats you and that makes you feel differently? What specifically are you saying in that way? When you get a complaint from the public that is investigated properly,

and there is no disproportionality between the number of complaints received by white officers or black officers. So if a member of public complains, there is no difference with the numbers as opposed to for a white or black officer. However, when you look at the statistics and you look at the number of internal complaints, that's where the disproportionality comes in. So it's specifically how you're treated by your colleagues? By other colleagues. And one of the examples that I can give you is that there is an anonymous phone line that you can use. And I think it's something like 90% of the calls received on this anonymous line are about black officers. If you make a mistake as a black officer, people do not forget you are, oh, that officer who did X.

If you're a white officer, people forget about your mistakes and everybody makes mistakes. But you're not likely to be, no one's going to pick up the phone and say that officer did this or they did that. You did take the Met to an employment tribunal. You decided to settle financially with a confidential agreement. Why did you do this? If I was sat here now and I hadn't settled, you'd be thinking I was making all of this up. And the reason I settled was because the Met, and I can't talk about the financial side of it, but the Met agreed to write letters to the individuals who'd been involved in

that investigation to let them know that there was no case to answer. Absolutely no case to answer. It was another internal, unfounded complaint. Palm Sandhu, they say in a statement about this, is a successful former Metropolitan Police officer. Prior to her retirement, she was one of our most senior operational leaders, promoted through the ranks to Chief Superintendent. The Met employs more than 5,000 black and minority ethnic officers, around half of all those employed across England, Wales and

Northern Ireland. The legal matters between the Met and Ms Sandhu are private. The Met has made no admissions of liability in respect of claims of discrimination against Ms Sandhu. The publication of this book, your book, is a matter for Ms Sandhu. The Met has not seen it. Your decision to leave, was that driven by what was going on within the force or was it also influenced by the racism and the prejudice you have also described that you did feel on the street? The prejudice I felt on the street was nowhere near as harsh as the racism I felt within the force, so within the service. So that didn't drive my decision to leave. I was supposed to have remained within the Metropolitan Police until 2022. I left early and that was because I just felt I couldn't fight anymore.

I've been fighting for 30 years to have that equal level playing field. I've been looking after other people. I've been mentoring people and I still do. But I felt it was the right time for me to leave. I would have loved to have stayed. I enjoyed the job immensely. There were some really tough times. There were some very difficult challenges. But the job itself, I felt that I was working within the community.

I felt that I was paying back and contributing to change. Because I was going to say, anyone who's listening to this, and for any woman of colour, either reading your book or hearing our conversation today, they might be put off from joining the police. And I know that you've just said what you've said about enjoying it and not regretting it. But at the same time, you have left early from a very senior position, because as you put it, you couldn't fight anymore. That's right. One thing I would say is for anybody who's thinking about joining the police service, do it. Just join. As long as you're strong enough to stand up for yourself and to stand up for the different communities, it's the right job for you. I don't regret being a police officer. I don't regret achieving as much as I did. But I do feel that

I was cheated and I could have achieved more and I could have given more years. But I do feel that I was cheated and that I could have achieved more and I could have given more years. But I just didn't have the support. I did not have that support as I was trying to go forward. Would you ever go back to the police? Would you ever work within the police to try and give others that support

and the benefit of your experience? You talked about mentoring in a less official capacity, but would you ever go back in? If Cressida picked up the phone now and said, come back in and be my advisor and make a difference, I would jump at the chance. I would absolutely jump at the chance because this isn't about me.

I've done what I wanted to do. This is about the people who follow me. And, you know, like some people, they pull the ladder up behind them. I'm not one of those individuals. Everything I've done I've always thought about how do I pay back how do I give back to the community so yeah if she if if Cressida or Sadiq Khan said here you go make a difference just give me that opportunity I'd love it absolutely love it and I still hand on my heart I would still say to any young person or even an

older person join the organization because you can make a difference from inside. You can't make that difference if you're standing on the outside. Palm Sunday, whose book is called Black and Blue, One Woman's Story of Policing, Her Side of Things. Lots of reaction also coming in now around our discussion with Lord Heseltine and Vera Hobhouse about this training course to try and improve respect and relations between colleagues within the House of Lords and the House of Commons. Many messages in response to what people have perceived as Lord Heseltine talking about.

It's the victim or the abused person's job to go and report this. Marie says it's a pity that it wasn't picked up on. Lord Heseltine blaming the woman victim of harassment rather than the male character in the training, Lord Adam. This attitude is why harassment is a problem in Parliament. But actually, and a similar one here saying on training of unacceptable behaviour, the response from Lord Heseltine that victims of harassment should be told about mechanisms from complaints with supreme arrogance. He dismissed men like himself having anything to learn demonstrating

the problem. But of course, he was talking about the need for a proper system, for an HR system, and he was worried that this would be the replacement for that. Another one, again, surely it's more important to change behaviours so that HR mechanisms are not needed for bullying and harassment. That's the onus, not on the reporting bad behaviour. It should be on the bad behaviour. Very interesting message that's come in here. I'm a young female staffer. I did the Valuing Everyone course last autumn. It wasn't bad, but it wouldn't stop people from mistreating colleagues or staff, and it isn't a replacement for a proper HR system.

And I should say the course was provided by Challenge Consultancy, and we did try and contact someone from that company all day yesterday, but haven't heard back. But a lot of debate coming in, thank you for that, about what actually would, which is why we're having this discussion, shift the dial,

keep those messages in, and also some really beautiful ones coming in around grief, about our first discussion and paying tribute. A lovely one from Sue who says, a wonderful discussion on the nature of grief with Chimamanda Ngoche Adichie. She says out here, Sue, I keep my mother's legacy by planting new daffodils every year as she planted some in my garden in her last months

and by baking her famous lemon drizzle cake. We gave out the recipe at her funeral. Thank you for that, Sue. Now, we were talking about the fact that the weather has improved a little or rather quite a lot, and you may have been digging out your summer dresses and skirts and having a look at your feet and legs for the first time, having been slobbing at home in your lockdown comfies. I know I'm looking at mine, cuts and bruises all over the

legs and also aware of the fact that sales of personal grooming products like deodorants, skincare products, razors, they actually went down during the pandemic. We're going to talk about this with Ashley Story. She's a comedian and also George Driver, acting beauty director of Elle. George, if I start with you, it's always a bit of a surprise to see your legs again, isn't it? It definitely is. I think after the storms of the past couple of months, we've all been surprised that they're still down there. And what are you noticing with the trends about whether women are going more natural perhaps after the year that we've had? Yeah, I think there's definitely, you know, a slight change in attitude. I think there's kind of, there's two camps.

There's half of us who are really excited to kind of get back to the preening routine, really get back out there, do full makeup, de-hair, you know, all the full works. And then there's the other camp that I think actually after the past year are kind of like, maybe I'm going to be a bit freer and easier with this. Maybe I just can't

be bothered maybe it doesn't matter as much you know so I think it's definitely the choice is like definitely out there more now the choice is there not not necessarily one for everyone some people won't even be putting on we should say skirts or dresses they'll be in their trousers or dungarees or whatever they like or a very long dress where you can see nothing I quite like that option Ashley I know you've been going on a pit for journey with hair removal tell us about that well I was hairy before it was cool so I just want to put that out there before it was hip and trendy I've always looked like Chewbacca um I have tried everything now I'm quite boil prone so shaving isn't an option for me and I want to put that in people's minds before they start judging women who don't like shave their legs or shave their

armpits that sometimes it's very uncomfortable and it can cause rashes so I've tried a lot of things I got one of those at home laser treatment things now I did buy it off of a bargain website so it did feel like tiny elastic bands being pinged in my pores and I hated it. Go on anything else was successful? I got off of one of those oh as seen on television and it was like wee tiny circles of sandpaper that they claimed if you rubbed it on your skin it took your hair away but not only did it just burn my skin it also smelled like my like my hair was burning off through his head george i don't know if you know what i'm talking about but these were like really big at one point but it was like tiny circles of sandpaper that you

rubbed on your own body i feel like there was a whole wave of you know black and decker tools for your legs basically that said no no more hair um yeah unfortunately I think there is always the element of pain involved and associated with it where did you come out Ashley have you have you left your legs as they are now I'm leaving them just now unless I have to go to a wedding or a christening I'm not going to bother right now because I usually have to like double razor and then like lay on Sudocrem for a day just to make sure that they're safe and I don't know if I can be bothered right now we've been through a pandemic well that's where a lot of people are coming out but it's not just about hair is it George it's also about the fact I don't know about you but you've got to

remember to actually perhaps put a bit of cream there occasionally, you know, moisturise these dry husks of a thing that have been tucked beneath your comfies. Yeah, it's a full shebang. And I think, you know, there's nothing I hate more than body moisturising. Honestly, like you've just, you've done the shower, you've done the bath, and now you're faced with having to somehow slather your entire body in moisturiser. It's just not going to happen, which is why I love the lazy alternative, which is the in-shower moisturiser it's just not going to happen which is why I love the lazy alternative which is the in shower moisturiser what's this I don't even know about this it's the dream there's one can I say brands well maybe not at the moment because other brands are available there are a

multitude of brands on your high street available um and it's you know moisturisers that you basically when you're done showering and you're still wet you just put them on there and it's you know moisturizers that you basically when you're done showering and you're still wet you just put them on there and that's it and you're already you know you're in the nude you don't have to get all sticky after your like towel situation you just do it then and there and you're done and that's about as much as I'm willing to commit I love it well as someone who lays out their clothes the night before because I just need everything to run a little bit smoother this sounds like my kind of all-in-one you saying wow Ashley I am like that's giving me ideas I'm already thinking million dollar idea just get a sandwich bag put moisturizer in it hook it around your shower head poke a hole in it

do both at once why not but it's just that moment isn't it it's a bit of a funny thing you do just have to sort of sort of tune back in perhaps even if you know you really don't think you care about these things it's that moment george isn't it when the sun comes out for for women a lot of the time i know men care as well yeah no definitely i mean i think the sight of kind of our paler than pale legs is always a shock but also you know there's nothing wrong with being pale I feel like we need we're obsessed with tan and health and we're like it's you know one day of sun and we're like oh goodness we've got to get our tanned legs out even if it doesn't match our arms or our face it is a it is a strange thing that you know you know where we've all been

living we've certainly not been able to most of us go anywhere and actually we try and do something else don't we a lot of the time or think we should that's more of the thing a lot of us don't know what to do but we'll think we need to do something i'd say just go vintage live like our ancestors did get a tea bag rub it up and down your leg live like it's like the olden days see how that works out that's like i was gonna say like like you're making a map at school. Do you remember that? Put a tea bag across the paper, burn the edges. Do that. Yeah, don't burn the edges.

You've been on that journey with hair. Thank you so much for talking to us. A comedian there, Ashley. Ashley Story, who you can see on your show, Dinosaur, about a woman with autism. That's starting on Monday on BBC One after the news, 10.45. And George Driver from LUK, thank you for that. Karen, final word to you, says, I went natural over lockdown.

My winter coat, quote, was shaved off at the weekend. I think I blunted two razors. That's all from Women's Hour, back tomorrow at 10. Welcome to Descendants, the series which looks into our lives and our past and asks something pretty simple. How close are each of our lives to the legacy of Britain's role in slavery? And who does that mean our lives are linked to? Narrated by me, Yersa Daly Ward,

we hear from those who have found themselves connected to each other through this history. Whoever you are, wherever you are in Britain, the chances are this touches your life somewhere, somehow. Descendants from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.