Woman's Hour - Author Holly Bourne, SEND, Alcohol pilot scheme at Women's Championship football clubs, Women & cycling

Episode Date: January 15, 2025

Services for children with special education needs and disabilities (SEND) in England are ‘unviable’. That’s the judgement from a report out today by the Public Accounts Committee, who look at the value for money of government services. Anna Dixon MP, who sits on the committee, joins Nuala McGovern to explain more, alongside Katie Ghose, Vice-Chair of the Disabled Children’s Partnership.Four Women's Championship football clubs will take part in a new pilot scheme beginning this month to allow fans to drink alcohol in the stands. This is something that’s been banned for supporters of the men’s game in the top five tiers. Head of Women’s Football at the Football Supporters’ Association Deborah Dilworth discusses the plans and what this could mean for women’s football matches.Holly Bourne, bestselling author of How Do You Like Me Now? and the Spinster Club series, is back with So Thrilled For You, her most personal novel yet. It’s a story about four friends navigating motherhood, career ambition, and societal pressures, all unfolding during a sweltering summer’s day at a baby shower. Holly explains what inspired her to write this funny, sharp, and moving exploration of friendship, and her experiences with early motherhood.According to stats from Cycling UK, 75% of cycling trips in the UK are made by men - but women are increasingly turning to the gym and indoor classes for their biking fix. Nuala discusses how we can get more women cycling, inside and outside, with Michelle Arthurs Brennan, digital editor at Cycling Weekly, and Clare Rogers from the London Cycling Campaign women's network. Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Today, a highly critical report by MPs, warning of a lost generation of children leaving school without ever getting the support they need for their special educational needs and disabilities. We're going to hear from one of the MPs shortly who is urging immediate action.

Also, drinking in the bowl. Now, that was a term I did not know. It's about drinking alcohol in view of a football pitch. And there is a pilot scheme about to get underway for some women's football matches. Some think it will improve the match day experience of fans. We'll discuss all that. Also the author Holly Bourne, she will

be in studio. So Thrilled for You is her new book and it follows four best friends, young women who find their relationships on shaky ground as children are introduced to their lives. And I saw an article just a couple of hours ago

asking, why are so many women cycling in the gym but not outside? I thought, that's a good question. Here are a few stats that I read. 75% of cycling trips in the UK are made by men.

With less than 10% of women cycling at least once a week, that is versus 21% of men. Another few stats. Women make up just 20% of British cycling's membership, that is the governing body for the sport and that also includes running cycling competitions. But let's compare all that with cycling inside.

The gender split is 78% women to 22% men. So why do you think that is? I want to hear your theories and also your stories of cycling indoors or out. Why aren't women cycling outside as much? We're going to chat about that a little later in the programme as well. To get in touch, you can text the programme, the number is 84844 on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 03700 100 444.

But let me begin. Here are some of the words to describe our report. Unviable. Peacemail interventions. A matter of most urgency. Some of the words used in this report I mentioned from the Public Accounts Committee. And they described the current system for children with special educational needs and disabilities in England or SEND.

Of course, we've spoken about some of these issues many times on the programme. But this report that's out today calls on the government to urgently reform the SEND system or risk a lost generation of children who won't see any improvement in their situation before they leave school. Just before coming on air, I spoke to Anna Dixon. She is the Labour MP for Shipley. She's a leading member of the committee that wrote the report. And I should point out that she talks about SEND, S-E-N.

But speaking to her, she did confirm to me that the recommendations do include children with disabilities as well as special needs. So that would be SEND, S-E-N, but speaking to her, she did confirm to me that the recommendations do include children with disabilities as well as special needs. So that would be SEND, S-E-N-D. Anna Dixon started by telling me what they mean when they talk about the lost generation. Our worry is that so many children with SEND are not getting the support they need at a crucial stage in their education and development, that this effectively, if we don't fix this very soon we've got many many children um indeed a potentially a lost generation who are going to be effectively leaving the other end of education without actually having um had the support they need

and this will resonate with many people that are listening um people have got in touch so many times with their heartbreaking stories of trying to navigate the system. There are a number of recommendations that the committee is asking for. Over the next 12 months, you say the department should work with others, including local authorities and the Ministry of Justice

to better understand the reasons for differences in identifying and supporting SEND needs across local areas and schools, routinely identify and share good practice from better performing areas and improve local authority decision-making by analysing tribunal decisions. But this line struck me as I read a little bit further.

Without fully understanding why demand for support has increased, the department's ability to provide value for money is undermined. Why don't they know? Well, that's what we're asking so um between the department for education and the department for health and social care we were asking them what they understood as the reasons for the huge increase in special educational needs what there is is some data and evidence of the type of need that accounts for that increase. So it is made up of autism spectrum disorder, social and emotional and speech, language and communication.

So those are the main issues that are driving the increase. But I think the other issue is this huge postcode lottery and what's driving the increase in the number of people having to go for an education and health care plan so every school should be providing support for sen without the parents needing to go through this statutory process of getting what in the um shorthand is ehcp education healthcare plan so probably it's self-evident that they didn't seem to have the answers is that because mainstream schools are not providing support to children with SEN, it's forcing more parents to have to go through

this statutory and much more adversarial process. And the other thing that we're really concerned about is it's the much more articulate and parents who are able to or have the capacity, time to actually take the fight on and take these things through tribunal. And the numbers are really shocking that 98 percent of those tribunals are found in favor of parents. So it suggests there's something going really wrong with the system that's forcing more and more people and yes we were in there interrogating the most senior civil servants in these departments and really didn't feel confident that they had the data to plan for the expansion and and and potentially come up with some really good solutions that make sure that children are

getting the support where they need it i mean mean, with a number of the recommendations, you have a timeline of many of within six months. Do you really think that's feasible, that some of the things you're asking for could be done in such a short time frame? So obviously, the government have already brought new impetus to this in terms of the budget announcing a billion pounds of extra funding and also you know looking at bringing special educational needs much more central to the department for education so that has already happened under new ministers and I think there is an urgency and impetus for the department at least in the next six months if not to have a full plan of how it's going to address everything is at least to get on top of this issue, because we really felt there wasn't a sense that they really understood what was driving the issues, and indeed, whether they had solutions, not least to

the issue that local authorities, I think we reckoned about two fifths of them, as a direct result of this over the next 18 months are staring down bankruptcy because there are some interim financial arrangements which are in place to try and sort of you know plug the gap but there's no plan beyond that so there are some really urgent issues that we felt the Department for Education and Department of Health and Social Care did need to get onto with a real degree of urgency. We see and in all the headlines, be it today or yesterday, about the public purse,

about the fact that there is not enough money to go around for some of the essential services. Do you think your report will help the Department of Education get more funding from the government? So I don't think this is about more funding. And as I say, Labour government have already announced

additional funding for SEN in terms of getting that into schools. I think the issue that local councils are facing is that a lot of money being spent in the wrong place. Obviously, this is about value for money. We're getting terrible outcomes for our children and we mustn't deflect from that. That is the biggest scandal is that too many children are missing out on the support but in terms of value for money what we're spending we're not spending it well um so what is needed is to make sure that schools we heard too many schools are refusing to take at the end uh they say they can't meet their needs so we need to

make sure that there is real accountability for mainstream schools to become inclusive whether that's through Ofsted training up staff so they're in mainstream schools so they're much more capable of supporting pupils with SEN so if we got that right then hopefully we would actually reduce the demand on specialist places, free up some of that state specialist. It probably does need expanding, but start to spend some of that money on getting people places closer to home. Because the other problem of these private schools is they're often miles from home. And so local authorities have got enormous transport bills. That was the other thing that the committee saw so this is yes it is about

them having sufficient and stable finances for the future based on good data about the demand and future demand for special educational needs but it's also about spending the money that is already going into scn sport in a much better way to support children and families. The Councillor Arush Shah, Chair of the Local Government Association's Children and Young People Board said, the committee is right to describe the failing SEND system

as an emergency. It's vital the government urgently sets out a comprehensive reform plan. This must include ensuring councils on a financially stable footing with high needs deficits written off. Otherwise, many councils will face a financial cliff edge and be faced with having to cut other services to balance budgets through no fault of their own or their residents. Do you think those deficits should be written off?

So the committee didn't take a view on it, but it certainly took a view that there needs to be clarity for local authorities beyond the current safety valve that's in place, which effectively says we're not going to call these debts back, call these debts in. So that's definitely what needs to happen. That's interesting. And of course, we have no idea whether the government will do that or not. The Department of Education did not offer anyone to speak to us about this report this morning. They did send us a statement from the school's minister, Catherine McKinnell,

who was part of our special Woman's Hour programme on SEND. She said the system we've inherited has been failing families with SEND children far too long. But there's only so long Ms Dixon that the government can say we've inherited this. So clearly the government are on this, have

been from coming in and we are still at the early stages of implementing our plans and priorities so um i think you know as i say um the we were looking at what the government the civil servants had been doing so it was based on a national order office report and largely preceded and the coming in of the new government but I'm very hopeful that we are going to be making changes that will be impacting parents sooner rather than later. That's Anna Dixon speaking to me a short while ago the Labour MP for Shipley also a leading member of the Public Accounts Committee that was calling potentially a lost generation

for children whose needs aren't being met by SEND provision. While listening to that with me in studio is Katie Ghosh, Vice Chair for the Disabled Children's Partnership, a group of organisations and charities that support families with children with disabilities. She's also the Chief Executive of Kids,

a charity which supports disabled children from birth to 25. Welcome back to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Your reaction perhaps to Anna Dixon, actually. We go through some aspects of the report and we can pick up on some others afterwards. Anna Dixon and the committee have nailed the issues. We are looking at the devastating impact of perhaps not just one lost generation of children with special educational needs and disabilities,

possibly two or more. What screamed out to me from the report and from Anna was urgency. Parents know what's happening on the ground. They are stuck on multiple waiting lists. They're not getting that early support they need. So the time for action is now. And we really support what the committee said about the government having a clear, costed plan. And something else that's so important is the government now fleshing out what does it mean for every school to be truly inclusive?

Because if we can get that right, that'll make a big difference. What does that mean? It means supportive, flexible environments. I'll give you an example of a school I was talking to recently. They've actually had fewer children overall. so they decided to up their special educational needs provision. They've got smaller classrooms and smaller groups for a child who can't cope with being in a child of 30. They've got sensory opportunities there. They're being thoughtful and creative with every child. The children can be all actually interacting together at some lunch

times and other break times, but they can also have smaller tailored support and that's working well. So not being in that class of 30 that you mentioned, but you know, some of the figures that were talked about and the Department of Education, they did send through a statement talking about their plan for change. And they say that they're going to ensure better and earlier intervention and inclusion. They talk about making progress by investing £1 billion into SEND, which Anna Dixon mentioned as well, £740 million for councils

to create more specialist places in mainstream schools. But I think those big figures are difficult for the average person to understand. Is that enough? What does that mean? Anna Dixon is not calling for more funding, but instead of that which is there to be managed in a different way. It's not enough and we do need more, but there's something that we can do now.

We can spend the money that's in the system earlier. £100 million is being spent on tribunals every year. Parents are winning those, 98% of those winning. That's money that's wasted. If we spent money on a two-year-old whose mum knows her child's developing differently from her friend's child instead of saying to that two-year-old you've got to wait till you're four at which point she might be heading to a special school when she could have gone to her local mainstream primary

we've got to start spending the money right now earlier when we can support people before they go into crisis. I'd be curious for your thoughts. I mentioned the Department of Education wasn't able to come on this morning, but the school's minister is Catherine McKinnell, and she talks about the system being inherited and that it has not provided for send children for far too long. How do you feel when you hear those words? I mean, what sort of timeline do you think the Labour government has

to actually implement some changes? Now, the parents we're working with, their kids aren't in school because their kids haven't got the support. They are losing out on their right to education, their right to health. This is our children's future. So I don't think it matters whether something's inherited or not. We've got tremendous expertise at the Disabled Children's Partnership. Families are experts. We can come together with the government

and the time for action is now. Was there anything in the report that surprised you? Not much, to be honest. Any parent of a child with special educational needs and disabilities would say it wasn't surprising. The one thing that did stand out to me, which Anna talked about, is that the government doesn't know enough about the reasons behind why demand. Why don't we get into that? Because when we had our live event in the radio theatre, where it was wonderful to meet so many of our listeners and also to hear their stories, some during the programme and some afterwards they were asking that question. Yes yes because some might see because there has been I think it's 140 percent rise

in diagnosis I think it's 1.14 million more children receive SEND support in schools since 2015. I mean, some might see that as a good thing that people are being diagnosed, children are being diagnosed and potentially getting the help even if it's not coming through. Yes, there are a number of reasons here and we need to understand more.

We need the government to get a grip on this. There's a very good part of this, which is that some children with complex medical conditions are living for longer. We're becoming much better at a society about understanding difference, about understanding about autism. Parents are talking to each other, getting much more aware and understanding that every child is brilliantly unique. So there are some reasons there,

but we really need the government to get a grip on this. Because if you understand your local population, you can cater for them much better. But when you talk about getting a grip on it, are you talking about data? Yes, data matters. But getting more of an understanding mustn't be an excuse for inaction. We need action now. We know enough to know. How would you recommend the government get a handle on why it's happening? I recommend that the government follows every single one of these committees' recommendations. And in particular, to get heads in the room, to get the health department and the education department working together.

Because if you think about a child with a disability, they need the health support so they can thrive in the classroom. We've got to have that joined up working. It also, coming back to Anna Dixon, she talked about that as well, getting the two working together and that it wasn't necessarily a matter of funding. But some might say this report should help the Department of Education

go to the government and get more money flowing their way. How do you see it? Yes, it should be taken as a helping hand. And all of us, the committees there, those of us with frontline experience, it should be a helping hand because with better evidence,

then it will be much easier to make a case. But I come back to the point about spending the money earlier, wiser, better. It's always cheaper and better to help a family first time round. It's interesting. I'm just thinking about a person that might be listening now or they have a child that they feel will have or does have special educational needs and disabilities. And where do they go at that very early stage? A kid is 18 months old or two years.

This is where health visitors are crucial. And it's awful to hear that sometimes health visitors, perhaps for resource reasons, are in virtual contact, not doing as many of the in-person visits. This is terrible. Health visitors are part of the ecosystem of support for a family. And when you've got that 18-month-old, and that's the time when you need that support. You need support from professionals. You need support from other people who've had that experience in your community. And that's what we've got to get right. And that's where we want to see money being spent in the

early years. Are you optimistic? I am optimistic because there's so many examples of what works out there. There's tremendous resilience and expertise in families. The government just needs to open the doors, follow the committee's recommendations, talk to my charity, Disabled Children Partnership, and everybody who's out there making a difference every day katie gauche vice chair of the disabled children's partnership a group of organizations and charities who support family and children with disabilities as well as the chief executive of kids thanks for coming into us in the women's hour studio uh we will continue of course talking about this thanks for all your messages coming in on cycling which we have been talking about. I was

asking, this article I read earlier why so many women are cycling indoors as opposed to outdoors. Most of the men seem to be outdoors as opposed to indoors with some of the stats that they were looking at. I want to know why, what are your theories on this? What are your stories? What are your experiences? Here are some.

I got my first bike since my childhood during lockdown. I used to cycle it to work once restrictions were lifted and loved it. That was until a white van with two men pulled up alongside me and yelled, cycle faster and you might lose some of that weight. I no longer live in London, but this moment haunts me frequently. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Here's another.

I'm a 70-year-old woman. I ride a couple of times a week, mostly off-road, but also on-road to link the trails together. Other women I speak to wrinkle up their noses at the idea of cycling, saying they're afraid of traffic,

the potholes, falling off on tricky trails, getting muddy, getting lost, getting a sore bottom, not feeling able to cope with punctures, not feeling confident to join a group as they get left behind. Indoor cycling avoids a lot of these issues,

but it doesn't provide an adrenaline rush. There's no skills involved and no exposure to nature. The people I ride with seem to be more confident in the outdoor environment, and that's what's often lacking in women, many of whom are even afraid to ride and walk in the woods on their own. I think there's a fear factor gender divide. Well, you know what? I think whoever got in touch there, that woman, is echoing actually what I'm hearing a lot of people getting in touch. Michelle in Nottingham, for example. Inside is safe! It's the same reason women don't go

running alone or out in the dark or in places they don't know. Is that your experience? 84844 if you would like to get in touch. I do also want to let you know with SEND that Bridget Philipson is currently speaking about SEND at the Education Select Committee. She says they're getting advice on the short and medium changes they can make now. She says they're going to set out more this year on the direction of travel and says it's complex and requires them to think differently. She does say she believes children with SEND have been forgotten

and she's restructured the department to put SEND at the top. So let us see what happens. And we will, of course, continue speaking about SEND and also to the government about this. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long

story, settle in. Available now. To football, kind of. To alcohol, kind of. This week, a new pilot scheme is beginning in the stands of the four women's championship football clubs. It's going to see fans at Bristol City, Southampton, Birmingham and Newcastle women's games

be allowed to drink alcohol in the stands. Something that has not been allowed in the top five tiers of the English men's game since the 80s. Now the first games to kick off the trial

take place on Sunday this week. Deborah Dilworth is head of women's football at the Football Supporters Association. I spoke to Deborah earlier this week and she explained to me what the proposals mean um okay so the women's professional leagues limited they have um split out and are now looking after the two top tiers of women's football and they're

looking at varying different things to kind of enhance match day experience and to continue to grow and develop the women's game one of which is drinking in the bowl. Drinking in the? In the bowl. So drinking in view of the pitch. So what they're thinking of is just sort of doing some research to try to define and do an evidence-based approach to define next steps in this area. And this is just really one of the areas that they're looking at.

Because drinking in the bowl, in view of the pitch, that's something that hasn't happened in the top five tiers of the men's game. And so what are the current rules when it comes to football? OK, so in the men's game, there's legislation, which was from 1985 that restricted drinking in view of the pitch. And that was for the five top men's leagues. For the women's game, there's a slightly different, I think there is quite a lot of confusion,

especially if a team plays in a rugby stadium and, you know, people are used to going to watch rugby there. Or even if a new fan comes in, you know, there's been a lot of that where a new fan's come, got their drink in the, you know, concourse, come to come to the take it to the to the viewer of the pitch and then have been stopped and then been very very confused by it and so i think that there go there's a really good example of like habits and also expectations in the women's game in comparison with the men's game and the lack of knowledge maybe about this legislation which, which is decades old now,

there's a chance to innovate and to sort of like review this. So it shouldn't just be that, you know, legislation and sort of ways of working in the men's game are slapped onto the women's game. The women's game is a totally different kind of kettle of fish, if you will. And there's different opportunities to innovate and collaborate aside from what the men's game's doing.

How is it different, do you think? I'm talking about the football supporter that goes to a game. Well, you've got totally different demographics. You've also got the opportunity to not only inspire people that might have an interest in football, but inspire people that don't. So I spoke to somebody yesterday at Exeter, actually, that was inspired by the Euros 2022 win from the Lionesses so she's come internationally and then down into the domestic game you've got people that are sort of looking at different sports but like the stories of some of the characters that are involved in women's domestic football so you've really got an opportunity to sort of broaden out who's actually going and there's different behaviours

and values that maybe are in the women's game that aren't in the men's game. The way that the women's game has had to fight to get where they are makes it a slightly different prospect. It's an interesting one isn't it? I mean the women's game is different to the men's game, I've heard that from a lot of the women that are involved playing as well as managing. But do you think, I don't know, introducing alcohol almost as, gimmick is the wrong word, but just a carrot maybe is the right word, as trying to entice certain people to come and watch the game instead of just for the football itself? I don't think it's a gimmick necessarily. All it is is trying to sort of give another choice

and it shouldn't be that we hyper-focus just on this and just on the drink alone. There's loads of different areas of work that are happening at the minute in order to continue to grow and develop attendances and also to try to ensure that the supporter experience is a good one.

So like what? So away allocations. We've been heavily working with the league in terms of actually dedicating an away section for fans and even making it easier to buy a ticket because that's been really difficult previously. So explain that a little bit more. Why? So ticketing originally, if I was a away fan, if i was a chelsea fan and i wanted to go away uh to man city i would have to go through the man city website and then i would be getting birthday cards from lauren hemp for example uh even though i'm a chelsea fan so you you don't

want that yeah don't listen although yeah but so it's just like trying to make the mechanism easier for people to and to remove some of the barriers that have been in place in the women's game for a really long time. So this is some of the nuts and bolts that we're working with, with the league heavily on and like even pre-match communications, away fan guides. There's loads of different elements that are being looked at in order to try to encourage more fans to go. And you talk about evidence-based you know trials what's the proof what would the proof in the pudding be? I think it's based on a number of different things so qualitative and quantitative information around you know like fan behavior does it change okay how you would look at like the experience do people feel safer or not so I

think it's like that would be a big a big factor in this is in terms of people generally describe the women's game as a safe environment. It's very family friendly for people that haven't been to it. It has what many consider a special atmosphere at women's games. I mean, could alcohol change that? Not necessarily. And if we look at different leisure activities as well. So if a family went to the cinema and you know the dad wanted to have a beer or you know a glass of wine or and and it was just a drink and then the kids were having their popcorn it's not like people are being encouraged to drink 10

pints so you know and then it'd be a massive issue or sort of change their behavior if you look across other leisure activities it's it's quite the norm to maybe just have one or two drinks and i think that's what's been an norm to maybe just have one or two drinks and I think that's what's been an interesting point from you know potentially some of the supporters groups is saying actually it's just the ability to have that choice not necessarily that the choice would be taken and I think that goes back to the different demographics and also the different habitual um you know the different habits from women's game supporters groups but I'm wondering just for a splurge how are people reacting to the proposal?

So I think really well, like we at the Football Supporters Association, we welcome this approach. We welcome the evidence-based research and we are really happy and glad that we've been able to work alongside the WPOL in order to sort of consult supporters on this. I think that it's very fan-centric and the feedback from the fans is really, really important. And I think people are reacting with interest to it to sort of see what does happen.

And it's about giving fans a choice. And I think that that's really important, a choice in a safe environment to potentially have a drink. And you mentioned the WPLL there, that. So they are a league that has been newly formed to look after the top two tiers of women's professional football. Any big pushback you've seen to the plan? Not massively, because it's important that the research is done.

And then, you know, this isn't just this isn't, oh, this research has been done and then it's definitely going to be rolled out across the board. That's not what's being said here. And I think it does need to go hand in hand with all the other facets of this and enhancing match day experience. Like this is just one element of that. And I think that with supporters is key across a number of different community groups that go or might want to go to the games. You might have seen this. The women's football writer at the Guardian, Susie Rack, raised concerns about the lack of equal levels of professionalism across the game, leading to predictable results. Fans want entertaining games. Are they getting it in the women's game? I think they are getting

entertaining games but I think that we've got to always put into, we've always got to think about the perspective of where the women's game has come from and to and so everything is growing at such a pace so you know there's a lot of work being done around the infrastructure and kind of facilities and

all sorts of different areas in order to raise professionalism. Do I think we are where we need to be? No. Do I think there's work going on to make things better? Yes. And I particularly care about the supporter experience in that and making sure that actually there's proper engagement across the board from league and a club level. How long do you think until they decide?

I think they'll want to do a good, proper research programme and put time and effort into it and then potentially trial in other areas. So I wouldn't want to put a timeframe on it because it needs to be done properly and I know there's a drive and a will to do that and that's really important. So we will see, I suppose.

You're in favour? I can see the benefits potentially. And I like the element of choice. But I don't think it's the only thing that we should be focusing on. I think there's other elements of the fan experience that really matter, such as making sure that every team has a support liaison officer, making sure that there's a proper engagement plan with supporters and making sure that consultation with fans is built in.

Deborah Dilworth, they're head of women's football at the Football Supporters Association. Thanks very much to her. Lots of you getting in touch about cycling. A couple more. We will be talking about this towards the end of the hour. Elizabeth, I've cycled my whole life. I'm now in my early 70s. I'm still cycling.

I've always felt safe. I wear a helmet. It's great exercise and wonderful for passing the traffic jams. I also walk in the dark, although would avoid parks. And I walk my dog in woods during daylight hours. It's sad so many women feel unable to do these activities. Here's another. I'm 86 and I still

cycle several times a week. I started cycling more during COVID and kept it up. My rule is if a situation looks a bit dangerous, get off and push. That's Leslie in New York. Thanks for tuning in this morning. One more. I cycle in the gym, but not on the road for two main reasons. I'm too scared to cycle on the road. Two, I can go to pee at any time I need to at the gym. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch.

Right, let us turn to the bestselling author of How Do You Like Me Now? And the Spinster Club series. It's Holly Byrne, who has tackled really big topics like feminism, mental health, the challenges of modern relationships. And inspired by her own experiences of early motherhood and friendship, her new novel So Thrilled For, explores the pressures women face. You could read that a lot of ways. So thrilled for you. So thrilled for you. And also about the jealousy that some of us keep hidden.

Now, before we dive into our conversation and welcome, Holly. Welcome. Good to have you with us. You're going to read a short passage to set the scene. Yes. So this is so it's this is a whodunit book about somebody committing arson at a baby shower um and so i can only read the first page without spoiling the book so here we go the flames take the vulva piñata immediately the crepe paper ripples in the magenta smoke the sweets inside popping like corn kernels as they explode inside their wiry cage.

The piñata falls onto the decking and there's a moment of stillness in me. The first time I felt calm in so long as they take in the view thinking, wow, I've never seen a pink smoke before. Soon the flames will claim the pile of duck patterned wrapping paper, gorge on the coarse wool of the hand-knitted blankets and turn the peony wool into a sweet, toxic perfume. I can tell already that everything is lost. The heat slaps my face and wakes me up. I hear myself screaming at what I've done and I run towards the heat. Ta-da!

But this is happening at a baby shower. What's your own experiences of baby showers? I find that I think the ritual is wonderful. I think it's a huge rite of passage. And you want, you know, as a woman, if you decide to have children and you can have children. And it's lovely to have everybody there celebrating you. I the things that you do at baby show is like utterly deranged okay tell me the most deranged thing you can imagine is it the one that's in your book well things like putting different chocolate bars into a nappy to look like poo and having to guess what

the chocolate bar is okay and there's something resembling that in your book and I was like does that really happen it does it does and you're just looking at these women and you're just like why are we all doing this nobody wants to be doing this and yet somebody googled baby shower game ideas and here we are like smelling like baby food has been put into a nappy to guess which flavor it is. Why would anybody not want to go to that but but it is interesting because there are these rituals that some people hold very close to their heart when there is a life transition like before and after the baby that some people are buying into 100% and others want nothing to do with. And I think you're kind of getting to this fracture that can happen within friendships. Exactly. And I think so. Female friendships.

So, So Frilled For You is set at like the world's worst baby shower. It's sort of like the Kardashians on acid in terms of, you know, it's all made for content. It's all made for Instagram. And it's about these four women who are best friends from university, but who are all basically having the worst day of their lives um and then you kind of it ends in arson and the kind of and then it's a whodunit and you're looking at these four women who all have very different relationships to motherhood ones of newly postpartum mum who's really struggling ones whose baby shower it is kind of is feeling very freaked out because she basically got pregnant with the wrong person because she was so scared that she may have to

have a child there's the friend who's thrown the baby shower to prove how fine she is even though she's really struggling with fertility and then there's a friend who's child free and happily child free if only somebody would believe her and it's kind of the sort of arson and the baby shower and whodunit is all looking at these yeah how these friendships can really fall apart when you get to the kind of the baby is um I'd say from like 28 to 42 where I find like women are usually so amazing at holding on to each other through big life changes and back jobs and emigrations and terrible relationships and there's something about motherhood where we get quite factionalized quite tribalized we kind of

stop talking to each other. Lots of friendships dissolve. And yeah, so the kind of this ridiculously gauche baby shower is sort of a backdrop to kind of examine what happens to women's friendships as we hit this period of our lives and how painful it is. How did you research it? I mean, I spent just being a woman in their 30s and like having an Instagram account means you're quite often like fed content of people saying we're pregnant and they've got the dog to hold a scan in its mouth while skydiving.

You know, these mad, but it's not about content rather than is that people, you know, doing that. Sometimes I'm like, I thought I knew you. And now you've got like a flower wall and you've done the most like you've hired a professional photographer to do your baby reveal like it's something odd has happened to all of us um so there was that and then I wrote this book very newly postpartum because I'm self-employed I didn't really have any maternity leave and um I really struggled with that transition to becoming a mother, mainly because my child, though she was wonderful, just did not sleep like at all to the point where. That is rough. We hired a sleep consultant and they gave us a refund after three days.

Sorry, I don't mean to laugh because I'm sure it was tragic. It was just like and I had this baby guide that said, don't worry if your baby's crying. They literally can't stay awake for more than 90 minutes. my baby had been awake for six hours and I was just like well this book's going out the window and um so I think the so one of the suspects is a mum who's really struggling postpartum and didn't have the sort of support network that I had to kind of help me through that period of my life um so that kind of really played into it and then I've got lots of friends who really struggled to have kids and some of them still haven't been able to have children um I've had friends I have lots of friends who are happily child free and so I kind of was just talking to

them about it so I can really what I hope with this book is that most people feel seen reading it and you're really rooting for whatever characters chapter you're reading you're like yeah no it isn't fair that this happens and no this is they're being so out of order and then you switch to the other suspects and you're like oh no I'm on your side now in their voice in that particular chapter as we get to know them um the part let's just take a moment on the postpartum uh Lauren have I got that correct um who is going through this nightmarish experience. But I was also, you mentioned that you were writing a lot of this when you were going through that really difficult period.

And that writing it was almost like a fever dream. Tell me more about that. And how did you produce something like that in the middle of the screams and the shrieks? I don't know. I just, and I always say I don't have much memory of writing this book. And obviously because it's a whodunit, it's very intricately plotted and it's set in real time. And I look at my notes and I had a spreadsheet of where each character was and where all the red herrings were.

And I'm like, I have no memory of writing this graph. Because I think I wasn't, I think you have to be asleep for a certain amount of time before your body goes into REM sleep and you have a dream and you're able to make memories and I wasn't at that level and my child would only sleep whilst fully attached to my breast in a dark room and we tried everything I promise you we tried it all you don't have to convince me you've got me on your side I just was sat four or five times a day in the dark with like my boob out with this human that I love to do but was also just completely disintegrating every other part of my life um and I was like she doesn't seem to mind me typing so I just kind of tapped it out

and I think that's why mothers who have read early copies of this book seem to be just really connecting because I think it's so visceral. Visceral is a good word to describe. I'm even thinking one of the car journeys Lauren takes with Woody, her kid, in tow. And it just is all consuming. And it has had me on edge as I was driving because you can kind of understand what she's going through at that time. But I wonder whether it was that experience, Holly, or indeed the others that you also go through, whether it's the person who is child free or the person who's struggling with infertility or pregnant. Do people speak, do young women you think of your age speak openly about what they're going through, about their emotions? I don't think we do very much about this topic.

That's what I'm talking about, specifically this topic. And I think it's because it's so emotive and because there's so much judgment and pressure on women to have babies or to not have babies, to have a set amount of babies. Not everyone who wants to have a baby is able to have a baby which is obviously deeply painful and I think women are trying to like look after each other's feelings a lot but um also means we're not opening up and I think female friendship is so wonderful because women are so able to get so deep so quickly within like 10 minutes of meeting a friend I've not seen for two hours we're like we're in it and we totally understand each other and and there's something about motherhood where it's a stumbling block and you might feel judged or you might feel that you can't say something or you might feel that you have to be like I know

I'm really lucky but I'm finding it really hard um and also just the fact that having kids I didn't truly understand it until I was trapped in my dark room five times a day it's very life limiting for at least a year or so you know like there were so many important friendship things that I missed during that time did you speak to your friends about that I didn't and I think that was one of the reasons I got like I started writing the book because I was like why am I not talking to my friends about this um why am I've not talking to my friends about this? I've always talked to my friends about things and I was so lonely. And part of it was just like, I literally couldn't make a phone call without waking my child.

And also pure tardiness, I'm sure. But part of me was like, well, I don't want to upset my friend who's pregnant and scare the living daylights out of her. I don't want to upset my friend who's struggling to conceive. Part of me and my deranged exhaustion for maybe my childhood free friends would be looking at me going well this is why I haven't made this decision um which isn't what they thought but in that dark space I went there and I think that's why I started writing the book but weirdly when my baby broke the sleep trainer and I tweeted about it I'm just thinking what her career might be you know further on the line I tweeted about it just going what her career might be, you know, further on in the line. I tweeted about it just going, what do you do if your sleep trainer gives you a refund and says they're totally baffled by your child?

And I asked out of genuine, like, I don't know what to do. And the tweet went like hugely viral. It had like over a million likes and reshares. And I was being invited to go fly to America to do a segment on my kid dropped out of sleep school. It seemed to really hit people. And I think that's when my friends started going, oh, Holly's not just become a mum and dropped off the face of the earth because she's in mum land and doesn't care about us anymore.

She's been going through actual hell. And all my friends activated and were so incredible. And within two days, I was like, why didn't I tell you? Why did I just sit and alone and just stomach this? It seems to be something, and coming in your book as well, what comes across to me is a fear of being judged. I think it's definitely a fear of being judged. And I think when you sort of said about the title of the book, so thrilled for you. And there's so many different ways you can say it.

I think it's something you type more than you actually say to somebody it's a kind of something you comment under an Instagram post of one of your closest friends because we're not having these face-to-face shares it's too virtual the relationship is too virtual yeah and I think it flattens female friendship and and then I think we know that social media kind of tribalizes us and gets us in the same sort of slipstream of people who are having similar experiences and kind of factionalizes us. And I do think to some degree that happens in motherhood. And I saw a friend recently had like had posted a meme about when your mate is coming for lunch, but says that she has to bring her toddler with her. And it's like the picture of like a screaming Elmo on fire.

And you're just like that. My feelings saying that I're just like, that hurt my feelings seeing that. I was just like, my toddler, like, the reason I'm bringing her for lunch is because I'm so desperate to see you and you matter to me and my childcare fell through. Do you think I want my toddler there? And they're behaving completely developmentally appropriately.

Like they're a toddler. Like, why are you being mean about my kid? That is, we actually, I remember there was a column about that, you being mean about my kid that is we actually I remember there was a column about that which we spoke about on Woman's Hour and it did have a huge response and also using that word visceral in the sense of being divisive as well

on how people felt about that particular point but it's really interesting to hear it from your point of view that you found it hurtful I think well and as I said it's just I think it's because we get into our own slipstream and we then I think then we lose empathy we're not women aren't seeing each other as much during these years and I think the moment you see each other the moment you have a chat and you're open and honest about the highs and the lows of whatever life path you're on when

relationships and motherhoods then you start realizing oh you your life's not perfect or you don't have it all or you're finding it really hard and then you've on, when relationships and motherhoods, then you start realising, oh, your life's not perfect or you don't have it all or you're finding it really hard. And then you've got that empathy there. And although this book's a kind of whodunit and somebody set the whole thing on fire, like it's just a radical call for women to have more empathy

for each other and their friendships. And I think Holly, you are also calling for people to, women to see their women friends in the flesh, face to face. Thank you very much for coming in face to face with us here on Women's Hour. Holly Burns, a new book is called, how would you say the title? So thrilled for you.

Thanks very much. Lots of you getting in touch about cycling. Here's one. I live in the lakes. It's years since I last considered either cycling myself or recommending others to try it. The roads are too dangerous, too narrow, often busy. Even on quieter side roads,

traffic is often travelling far too fast for the conditions and there's little provision in the way of cycle paths. Why am I talking about this? Because the prospect apparently of donning a helmet, lycra, bicycle clips and getting on the bike outside apparently seems unappealing if you are a woman. This is according to statistics that I'm reading from Cycling UK.

Here are some of them. 75% of cycling trips in the UK are made by men. Women instead are increasingly turning to the gym and indoor cycling classes for their biking fix. So let's talk about how we can get more women cycling outside and why they are still doing it inside. It's a huge proportion of women to men. I think it's 78%. Michelle Arthurs-Brennan is with us. She's digital editor at Cycling Weekly.

We also have Clare Rogers from the London Cycling Campaign, Women's Network. Welcome to both of you. Michelle, reading that article published in cycling weekly about that gender imbalance imbalance in outdoor cycling um why do you think it is uh it's a i mean listening to the responses i've been listening to the show so far and the responses you're getting are overwhelmingly about safety aren't they um which was referenced in that piece and there are many say there's a 2015 study of 1500 women that showed that they were twice as likely to experience harassment when cycling to work

and then more recently 2023 study showed um that 93 percent uh said they had experience having a vehicle used to intimidate them and 77% of them in the last month. So the safety factor is clearly there. Here's one from, sorry to interrupt you, just as you talk about that though, a message comes in from Katrina. She says, angry drivers are the reason that she's not outside cycling.

My last 10 years of work was commuting by bike in nice office gear gently. London's infrastructure is great for cyclists and more women would find it useful and enjoyable than they think would find it more. No need to wear lycra and race at speed. The lanes keep angry motorists at bay. So that's kind of, in some places, you have that division between the motorists and the cycle lane.

But I mean, what can people do about it in terms of the safety factor that is it's a huge question and obviously infrastructure is often discussed actually interestingly i started cycling myself when i was at university and i was in Brighton and the cycle lanes were short. Now, everyone might agree I found the cycle lanes very good and I felt very safe. And actually, the commute from my home to the university was all the cycle lane, partly off road. And that kind of allowed me probably in hindsight to increase my confidence so there there is that um but i also think that although the study did show that women experience more harassment men also obviously do experience this harassment but seem more inclined to do it um to to ride outside and our article did look at

quite a lot of other factors around cycling i mean someone that enjoys riding outside is motivated to perhaps has lots of friends that that also ride outside they might feel more inclined to overcome that harassment or to effectively continue to cycle regardless because cycling is absolutely a statistically safe activity um i did that harassment makes it feel like it's not. More dangerous. Well, let me turn to Claire. And I mentioned you are from the London Cycling Campaign Women's Network,

so obviously trying to get more women cycling. But I read, Claire, that you cycle like a man. What does that mean? Yes, what I mean by that is I took up cycling a few years ago and then subsequently got rid of my car. I just find it's the most efficient, healthy, cheap way to get around. And I just have this fearlessness, or maybe it's just insanity,

I'm not sure which. And I'm so prone to getting lost that I will just pick an A road or a dual carriageway rather than pick some traffic rather than get lost. But I think I shouldn't have to do that. I think it's very off-putting for most of the population, especially women, to have to make those choices. So I don't recommend this to anyone else. But I agree with what I'm going to say and what Michelle said.

I think the headline is cycling is statistically safe. You know, please don't let this put you off. Statistically safe. Yeah, but obviously what's coming through loud and clear to me from the listeners is that they don't feel safe on the road, whether that is confidence in cycling or other people that are shouting at them or harassment, be it motorists or other cyclists. Do you see a way over that?

Absolutely. And while it is statistically safe, and I don't want to put people off, there are huge safety issues. So there is a perception of danger and there is actually a real danger, I'm sorry to say. Absolutely the way around that is, you know, let's backtrack a few decades. Our roads have

become dominated by motor traffic and car ownership has gone through the roof. Our roads are designed to prioritise driving over all other modes. And what that leaves us with is a hugely unfair situation where cycling is only for the brave. And that, unfortunately, is usually men. And so what this has meant, this is a feminist issue. It's restricted women cycling. Women are less likely to make those decisions to cycle. They're more likely to be caregivers.

They're far more likely to be doing the school run. And they just don't have that safe space. The other thing is the safe space, which is also coming across, is that women find it indoors, whether they're on an exercise bike at home or in the gym, whether it's something like a spinning class or Peloton or whatever it might be. Does it matter, do you think, if women are cycling, but it's indoors instead of out on the roads? Let me first throw that to you, Michelle. I mean, I think we know that women are less likely to take part in physical activity, sporting activity. And so any amount of increasing that,

I think is a really good thing. So absolutely, riding indoors is great riding outdoors has its benefits in that it is um it is being outside is good for your mental and physical health uh but also as claire's alluded to car ownership has rocketed um and if there were more people cycling outside more for a commuting sort of reason that does mean there are fewer cars on the road so that generally is a better experience for everybody so forcing sort of women into cars is not great really. What about this one here's Vicky I don't cycle to work because I don't want to arrive sweaty with disheveled hair nor to have to shower or change

also working from home i don't want to have to lug my laptop and all my stuff with me you're nodding michelle yeah that that is that is something that's been heard before i suppose i mean if you go cycling the gym there might be shower facilities there um and it does also does take out the um that sort of extra time of preparing getting your bike ready washing the bike when you get back potentially. So that that has been identified as another as a barrier to entry. Absolutely. What about that? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Can I just jump in on that?

It's unfortunately that's another victim of our car based culture and society because we're just we're used to cycling being a sort of um sports a kind of extreme sports and so we we feel like we need the the battle gear the lycra and the shower afterwards if you look at countries where they have prioritized cycling if you look at um denmark and netherlands finland it's not like cycling is a bit like being a pedestrian on on wheels it's you cycle in your work clothes you don't need a shower when you arrive at work um because you've gone at a sedate pace and it's and it's genuinely for everyone it's for kids going to school and not just a hardened commuter man cycling to work one more from claire i cycle in bristol at least once a

week the greatest danger is headphone wearing pedestrians in the cycle lane what do you think about that claire in my last 30 seconds at least once a week, the greatest danger is headphone wearing pedestrians in the cycle lane. What do you think about that, Clare, in my last 30 seconds? I would say that might be your perception, but the greatest danger really is motor traffic and not enough segregated space to protect you from it. Really interesting. Lots

of you getting in touch. Thanks so much. Plenty of women cycling in Worcester on bike, buses and individually, though we still need more. And also there are more men. Here's another one. I have taken on my late dad's e-bike. He rode it almost daily till 86 or 87.

I love it and understand the pleasure it gave him. I use it for A to B and also just for outdoor exercise and joy. It makes me smile and you experience so much. Things you see, hear, smell. Sunday roastss i do go when the roads are quieter and i'm lucky to have lanes around too just can't imagine cycling indoors um but another 71 cycle daily using an e-bike because it's gentle on my joints so obviously

a lot of people getting in touch on that particular story thanks so much both to michelle arthur's brennan and Clare Rogers on cycling joining us on Woman's Hour. Join Anita tomorrow when we'll be discussing Kamala Harris as she ends her vice presidency on Inauguration Day on Monday the 20th of January.

What is in store next for the woman who could have been the first female president of the United States? Join us then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox. And this is the infinite monkey hedgerow.

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