Woman's Hour - Author Holly Jackson, Black Girl Gamers, Constance Martin case

Episode Date: July 15, 2025

The Invest in Women Taskforce, backed by the Department for Business and Trade, was set up last year with the aim of creating ‘the world’s biggest funding pot of £250 million’ to invest in female-led businesses. The Taskforce has been criticised by some MPs on the Women and Equalities Select Committee, suggesting that it is ‘lacking a sense of urgency.’ To respond to this and give context on the challenges and opportunities for female entrepreneurship in the UK, Nuala McGovern is joined by the co-chair of the Taskforce, entrepreneur and investor Debbie Wosskow OBE and the Chair of the Select Committee, Sarah Owen MP.The UK’s bestselling female crime writer in 2024, Holly Jackson, has just published her first thriller for adults. Up to now Holly has been known for her success in writing for Young Adults – she has sold more than 10 million YA books and last summer a TV adaptation of her debut, A Good Girl’s Guide to Murder, was a hit for both BBC3 and Netflix. Holly joins Nuala to talk about deciding to write for older readers with her latest novel, Not Quite Dead Yet, and her ambition to out-perform Richard Osman and Lee Child.In the second part of our new series about women and gaming, we’re finding out more about the impact gaming can have on women’s lives. Nuala heads to the Virgin Media Gamepad at the O2 to meet some of the women from the Black Girl Gamers community, who have over 10,000 members around the world, and neuroscientist Dr Faye Begeti tells us what actually goes on in our brains when we play video games.Yesterday saw the long-awaited verdict in the Constance Marten and Mark Gordon retrial. The couple have been found guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence, more than two years after the body of their baby, Victoria, had been discovered in a shopping bag in Brighton. An earlier trial at the same court found them guilty of concealing the birth of a child, perverting the course of justice by not reporting her death, and of child cruelty. BBC News correspondent Helena Wilkinson has been following both trials. She joins Nuala to discuss the details.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca, cargurus.ca. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Women's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, earlier this year, the Chancellor Rachel Reeves said, it is, if we are honest, easier to start a business and grow a business as a man. But there is a task force and funding to try and even that score. But some politicians are saying the task force is taking too long to get the

money into the hands of female entrepreneurs. In a moment, we'll have the MP Sarah Owen and also co-chair of the task force Deborah Wasco. If you are a female entrepreneur or if you want to be one I'd like to hear about your experiences this morning and particularly when it comes to getting investment for your business. What are the struggles or the obstacles that stand in your way? You can text the program the number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or voice

note. The number is 03700 100 444. Also in the studio today, the bestselling young adult author Holly Jackson, you might know her from a good girls, a good girls guide to murder. It's a thriller series. Well, I should probably call her adult author because she's breaking into that world with a new thriller novel. She has beating Richard Osmond and Lee Child in her sights with her new book Not Quite Dead Yet. Now we're discussing women in gaming all this week. I had a brilliant afternoon yesterday with the group Black Girl Gamers.

You are going to meet Deanne, Adobe and Aisha who with their infectious energy describe why gaming is such an important part of their lives and also how it has helped them through tough times. And we'll also hear what's happening to our brains when we play. Plus, we speak to our correspondent Helena Wilkinson who is in the courtroom for the trial of Constance Martin and Mark Gordon. You might have seen they were found guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence of their baby Victoria. Helena says she's never seen a case like it. We're going to speak to her later this hour. But let me begin with business. Female-founded businesses have less than 2% of equity investment in the first half of last year.

That's according to the Invest in Women Task Force that I was mentioning. You might remember this task force was backed by the Department for Business and Trade, set up last year with the aim of creating the world's biggest funding pot of £250 million to invest in female-led businesses. Now, it has said it will start backing them by the end of this year but the timeline has been criticized by some MPs on the Women and Equality Select Committee for not moving fast enough or lacking a sense of urgency. We have the chair of that committee MP Sarah Owen and also with me in studio to respond to the criticism is the co-chair of the task force, entrepreneur and investor,

Debbie Wasco OBE. Welcome to both of you. Give me my stage name. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Good morning, Leela. We like to give full titles because it can take a lot to get them. Well, Sarah, let me start with you and good morning. What have your committee members been telling you? What's the concern? I think the concern is we haven't finished our inquiry yet and we are still hearing from business leaders. We're also hearing from investors. But what we're hearing is that that dial hasn't shifted. So that around 2% of investment in women's women led businesses hasn't shifted for decades.

And what we need to see now is action that will actually improve that for women-led entrepreneurs, because otherwise we're missing out, the individuals are missing out. There's all this focus on growth and quite rightly so, but women are a huge part of that and they should be. Debbie, your response, the dial hasn't shifted yet, why not? Thank you, Sarah. As ever, we are in violent agreement. And I also want to thank Women's Hour for giving the topic so much airtime and having me back nine months later. Now I'm going to try and break with type here because I am one of the most impatient people in the world. I legendarily am somebody who pushes timelines and asks for the impossible

but in this case I think we need to breathe. Last time I came on I talked about a 250 million pound target, which would create the biggest funding pot in the world to back female-powered businesses. We are now at 580 million pounds in committed funding, none of which was there in September 2024 when Hannah Bernard and I were appointed co-chairs of the Investing Women Task Force by our first female chancellor. In the last six weeks alone, BGF increased their funding of women-led businesses, sorry, Business Growth Fund, from 25 million to 300 million pounds over the next five years. And on Thursday of last week, the British Business Bank committed a further 50 million. Now this is critical.

Both of those funding pots and the 50 million pounds that was committed by Aviva last year are being deployed. In addition, by signing up as a task force partner, they now have female representation in their investment committees. And Sarah will agree, I think, we are trying to drive systemic change. And we need to do that in a complicated way, I'm afraid. And we have hit some of those milestones already within 2025. And that is hard to do. But I'm grateful to BGF and BBB for showcasing British Business Bank, for showcasing and role modeling behavior and none of that was in place when I came on nine months ago. So this is you

know almost doubling the goal for example of what you were trying to reach when it came to a pot of funding but some might ask why couldn't you start investing the money at the point when you reach the 250 million? It's a great question I'm afraid the answer's a bit complicated, so I'm gonna try and simplify it. We are trying to drive systemic change. And one of the things that absolutely unlocks that is that wealth needs to change hands.

So at the moment, 2% of all capital allocated last year went to back a female entrepreneur. We know that stat, I hate that stat. And that has been my own experience because I am an entrepreneur and I built three businesses to exit. And the defining part of my career success is that I'm really good at asking men for money because if I wasn't, I wouldn't have had a career. And that's because on the other side of the table, only 11% of investment professionals, 2% at the most senior level are female. So to drive systemic change, and this is the second part of the task force work, we are

creating a fund of funds. I'm going to try and explain that in a way that makes sense to your listeners. A fund of funds is an institutional capital pot where the fund of funds manager needs, through the task force work, to be female, right? So we had to go through a tender process to find them. We had 25 applications and we selected Bootstrap 4F which is female owned and also in the case of Bootstrap 4F diverse in that two of the investors are women of color. That is not easy to do

and in all of this I'm going to say again breaking with type for my personality, I am glad that we're taking the time to do. And in all of this, I'm going to say, again, breaking with type for my personality, I am glad that we're taking the time to do that properly. And do you know why? Because we need to pick investors who are female, who make decisions to back funds run by women that are going to deliver outsized returns. And Sarah will agree with this.

What makes us succeed and what takes a little bit of time is that this is unashamedly for profit. We're not giving out grants, we're making investments that are going to deliver investors outsized returns because a female entrepreneur delivers 35% better returns than a male entrepreneur. So for once in my life, I'm going to say we need to take time. This is regulated capital going to women-led and mixed teams who are investors, and we will get money into the first female investors' hands through the funder funds with thanks to the three initial backers of the funder funds by the end of the year.

End of the year. Sarah, your response? because of the funder funds by the end of the year. End of the year. Sarah, your response? Maryse, I think that's absolutely right that we need to have a systemic and a cultural change when it comes to the world of business and particularly investment in female led entrepreneurs. But when we heard, I think one of the committee heard one of the best illustrations, possibly the worst illustrations of this was when we talked about the British Business Bank investment that will be 50 million pounds just for female entrepreneurs, that's only 10% of the 500 million. And when we question why it was such a small amount of the

money being earmarked and why government should be actually setting a better example than this, the answer we got from ministers in the civil service was that the market wouldn't accept it. So absolutely we have to change the systemic sexism within this sector because otherwise we aren't going to change it. And we can't just have more female investors coming in just to invest in female-only businesses. We need to address the reasons why it is

that male investors are not recognizing the returns and the growth opportunities that there are in female-led entrepreneurs. Debra, Sarah's right. She is right. Can more be done? Hell yeah. Do we need more high street banks to follow Barclays lead,

who are one of our backers? Yes. Do we need more pension funds to come in alongside our backers? Yes. Do we need more pension funds to come in alongside M&G? Yes. Do we need more foundations like Visa? Yes. Am I pleased that BBB, British Business Bank, committed 50 million last week? Yes. Would I like more from them? You know, you know what I'm going to say? Yes. Believe me, I am kicking down doors in my stilettos to get more and where Sarah is right. But what is it when you try and kick down that door when that stiletto is in mid-flight?

What's the response? Like some of, for example, whether it's those particular entities or others of why they're not investing in women, what do you hear? So reasons to be cheerful, can we just take the win of 580 million? We absolutely do know that but the money hasn't gone into the hands of the entrepreneurs yet. That's not true because the partners BGF, Business Growth Fund, British Business Bank and Aviva are deploying that capital already since January of that year. So that needs to be corrected. What hasn't happened yet is that the fund of funds,

which is currently at 105 million of commitments, has not yet started to back female investors because we only appointed the fund of funds manager in April. Where I'm in violent agreement with Sarah is we need more. The fund of funds needs to be bigger. We need more institutions. We need more retail banks, more pension funds, and more investment banks to be bigger. We need more institutions, we need more retail banks, more pension funds and more investment banks to back us. What do we hear when we make that ask? Because

it is typical that we're making that ask of male fund managers and institutions that they need time. And also the reason that Sarah's select committee, our first female chancellor, having frankly, some kickass women now at the heart of government, like Poppy Gustafson, like the chancellor's new entrepreneur in residence, Alex de Pledge, it takes a village. That's why Women's Hour is so important. If any of them are listening, which I suspect they aren't, but you know, I suspect they are. Okay, great. Let us all keep making the ask because so far we have had seven institutions sign up, right? And we need to have 77. So I agree.

And as you mentioned, you say some of the funds have already been deployed that have been used with certain female entrepreneurs. Where, how, can you give us an example? Yes. So I think, you know, again, it's complicated, I'm afraid, so I'm going to try and simplify it. This 580 million is in two pots. So we have people who are deploying that capital themselves. They are called our partners. They have to account to me and to Hannah Bernard on a courtly basis for how that capital is being deployed and whether this is really critical for them. They have gender representation on their investment committees. A female investor is twice as likely to back a female entrepreneur as a male investor,

right? So that is the systemic change point. So they are reporting quarterly and that capital is starting to be deployed directly to back female founders. The Women Backing Women Fund of Funds run by Bootstrap 4F will not go directly to female founders. The Women Backing Women Fund of Funds, run by Bootstrap 4F, will not go directly to female entrepreneurs. So for female entrepreneurs who are listening or who message me on LinkedIn, which is a wonderful incoming part of my daily life, the Fund of Funds will go to back female investors. Now, what is the good news? When we announced Bootstrap 4F will be running that money and we did it by opening the London

Stock Exchange run by another wonderful woman, Julia Hogg. We had 80 female GPs, JAG, and that means female venture capital investors in the room there asking for money. Now I'm going to give you some more bad news. They will not all be funded by the funder funds. So as ever with this, I'm afraid, you know, there will be people who say we need more, it needs to be quicker, why not us? Luckily I've got broad shoulders. But we need to conclude and I think Sarah agrees with this, this is a force for good that in September last year did not exist but by God there's more work to be done. Let me turn to you Sarah. There was another issue raised in the committee inquiry and it's the fact that female entrepreneurs have not been included in the government's industrial strategy. Now that strategy sets out a 10-year plan to

significantly increase business investment in eight growth sectors and that was a source of frustration I understand. Can you tell us about that? Yes I think the committee put that to Minister Thomas and probably Gustafsson when they appeared a couple of weeks ago in front of our committee. And I think that they took it on the chin. And they did understand the frustration and the anger, quite frankly, that women were ignored from the industrial strategy. But that that will be rectified, we were promised when it comes to the small business strategy. And I think that that is welcome. But what is welcome is that we are actually

having this conversation. Yes, we were standing from a really low base, and things have moved. Impatient seems to be the word of the day. And we are impatient for change because we've got to look at all women as well. And I think our committee really heard that not only are just women being shut out, but it is worse if you are disabled.

It is worse if you are black. In terms of investment, we know that it's standing at that 2% for women as a total, but for an ethnic minority woman, it is 0.2% and that hasn't shifted. So I do welcome seeing more diversity on the boards and on investment panels, But it has to be diversity within women themselves as well, in terms of class, in terms of ethnicity, and in terms of disability as well. With Debra explaining, setting out her stall, so to speak, when it comes to the funding, do you have any other questions, or are you satisfied with her explanation? I think that having the panels is fantastic and having more diversity on them. But one of the

things that we have heard from female-led entrepreneurs is that they feel they're shut out of these networks and that they are very much suited to certain types of women and not necessarily as diverse within the diversity that they're trying to aim for. I think just looking for the target of women isn't going to change the dial in terms of the culture and in terms of the barriers that most women face. Debra? Yeah I agree and I think you know if I look at my own business arc and the businesses that I have founded or the businesses that I've chaired, I'm the executive of a business called the Better Menopause. And even for me with three exits under my belt, age 51, it is not easy

fundraising for a business that focuses on 48 menopause symptoms and asking men to fund it. And I am a white woman who has privilege. And Sarah's absolutely right. The stats are bad for female entrepreneurs. The stats are atrocious for women of color. Networks matter. And that's why for the Investing Women Task Force, I am laser focused on money. I am because we stand on the shoulders of giants here. You know, people like Alison Rose and Anne Boden, who are legends in my world, have had a go at this. They have chaired previous government reviews that have looked at things like networks and mentorship. And in my role as the co-founder

of Albright, my last business, which became the biggest network for women careers in the world, I lived and breathed that stuff all day long. But money talks. We are not at the table. Women need to unashamedly get rich and deploy their capital and backing other women as I speak as a prolific angel investor who only backs female entrepreneurs. So Sarah is right, but what I would say is let's take the win of 580 million that was not on the table. Let's push for more. Let's push all of the institutions that haven't signed up for more. Let's be collectively impatient. But capital is now flowing. What needs to happen now is we need to back the female winners

in all their diversity, in all their greatness, inside and outside the industrial strategy to win. We are the only country in the world that's tackling this in this way, and I'm proud of us, but we are at the beginning. We're not yet a year in. You'll come back to us again at the end of the year, as Fen you say. I can't wait. We begin to see some more results. but we are at the beginning, we're not yet a year in. You'll come back to us again at the end of the year, as Féin you say, when you talk about it. We begin to see some more results.

Just before I let you go, Sarah, Deborah was mentioning Alison Rose, she was the CEO of NatWest Group, and she had the Rose Review of Female Entrepreneurship. The plan was to double the number of female entrepreneurs by 2030, is the UK on track for that? I think it's yet to be seen, but I think it is a good start, definitely.

But we need to keep the pressure up and I'm glad that we're all in agreement on that. Let's see if the Chancellor speaks about female entrepreneurs today in her second Mansion House speech. Thanks to both of you for coming in. Debbie Wasco, OBE and MP Sarah Owen will continue talking about this. Thanks for your messages. Female entrepreneurs definitely have it much harder. What I've experienced is that women don't get the money they need, and it comes in more conditions than their male counterparts. More female investors are needed.

84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, if you are or have a teenage girl, you're very likely to have heard of my next guest, the young adult writer Holly Jackson. She sold over 10 million young adult books. She was the best-selling British female crime writer last year. A TV adaptation of her debut, A Good Girl's Guide to Murder, was a hit for BBC Three and Netflix. She has just finished writing the screenplay for series two for those that are waiting. But right now she has written her first crime thriller for adults called Not Quite Dead Yet. Welcome.

Thank you very much for having me on. Well I read that you wrote this in six weeks. Is that true? It is true. Yes, your producer just came and checked with me. She was like, is that fake news? Is that real? And I was like, no, yeah, no, I really am that obsessive and unhinged.

Yeah, it was six weeks. I mean, that's, that's how long it took me to physically write, you know, type out the sentences. I did research and plot and plan for a month or two before that. So, if we're being truthfully honest, it was probably the entire book was birthed, as it were, in about a three month period. That's a short time. It is, yeah. Our deadlines sort of rule my life. But if I'm being honest, I think I do my best work when I'm under obscene time pressure. I mean, I can relate to that, but you eat, sleep, and write at the moment.

Yes, at the moment, yeah. And I spend, we've just been shooting season two of A Good Girl's Guide to Murder, so I've been off to set and back. It's been a busy year, I'll be honest. I haven't had a lot of free time. No weekends for me, but it's entirely my own fault. I actually heard as well that we're doing a series on gaming this week.

That if you did have any free time, you might game. Oh, I would do, yes, exactly. It's because when you're a writer, I mean, maybe this isn't relatable to other people, but I have sort of ruined books and film and TV for myself because it's the thing that everyone does to relax. But for me, it's still a little, it's like work and I can't really turn that bit of my brain off. So I'm a very picky consumer of media, but video games happen to be that sweet spot where

I can kind of turn off the writer brain and just sit there and be brainless for a little bit. Well, let's talk about what happened over the past few months. Jet. Yes. Happened. She happened. This is the woman at the centre of your story, not quite dead yet. We won't give any spoilers, but we can say that she has one week to solve a murder. How much more do you want to say, Holly? Oh, I can say, you know what? It's fair game if it's on the blurb, if it's on the back of the book. It's not a murder. How much more do you want to say, Holly? Oh, I can say, do you know what?

It's fair game if it's on the blurb, if it's on the back of the book, it's not a spoiler. So Not Quite Dead Yet tells the story of Jett, who is 27. And I think she's going to be quite relatable to a lot of people. She's one of those people who has sort of failed to launch in a way. She has a lot of ambition,

but not necessarily a lot of drive. She's a procrastination queen, let's say, and that certainly might come from me. I'll do it later is the catchphrase. Yes, I'll do it later is definitely her catchphrase. So she's sort of spinning her wheels saying, you know, as soon as I achieve something big, my life will truly begin. But her plans sort of go awry when at the end of the first chapter, she's murdered, except she's not quite dead yet. You see what I did there. And Jett is told because of medical complications, she will definitely be dead in about a week, but she's got about seven

days left to live. So Jett's like, okay, I've got one week left, no more later, I'm going to have to do something. So she decides to solve her own murder. And there are lots of plot twists and, you know, there is wearable technology. Oh, yes. Or other brands are available. There is. I was in a previous book. Yeah, exactly. But a ring doorbell, for example, other brands are available. It's also plot driver in this one. But you know, I thought? You know who was sitting in that chair where you are just a couple

of weeks ago? Karen Slaughter. Yeah. Right. The writer. Also with thrillers. And she talked about setting her books in the past so she didn't need to get into the complications of like mobile phone tracking, for example. I understand the instinct here. I kind of like to see it as the opposite. I've never once, when approaching a book, thought, oh God, I need to put them in the middle of like the Scottish highlands with no signal or anything. I always see modern technology as like an opportunity, especially if I want my reader to feel like, hey, maybe I could solve a murder. I mean, it's not recommended. Please don't do that. Read my book instead. But so I always try and look around at the tech that I use in everyday life, like my Fitbit or like Apple Watches, Ring Door Camelot and say

okay, how would I use this to solve a crime? It's rich territory. It certainly is. How does it feel, because everybody will know you as a YA, as they say, a young adult author, and they'll know you as well from the as they say, a young adult author, and they'll know you as well from the TV series. But how does it feel to do the first adult novel and what was the catalyst for the leap? I mean, it's very fun being a debut again.

I think it's a bit of a cheat to say I'm a debut because I am an old hack. I know what I'm doing now. For me, I think I've always sat in this very uncomfortable liminal space between young adult and adult anyway because there are lots of people who say, God, her books are far too inappropriate for teenagers, which is why they love them, I think. Especially the last book in the series, I was convinced someone was going to say, no, you can't publish that. That's quite frankly illegal, but they let me get away with it.

Because it's quite gory. Oh, very. I was saying quite. Oh, you should have seen my search history after writing that book, it was unhinged to say the least. So I think I've always been at the very kind of upper age limit of YA. Which is? I don't know, define a young adult. I couldn't possibly. I still feel like a teenager I must say. And I do tend to notice that as much as, you know,

I have a lot of teen readers, you know, I have women in their 20s and 30s as well who love the YA books. I think, do you know what? YA is a state of mind. It's not an age category. I like that. So for me, the slip into adult fiction, to be honest,

it was pretty much exactly the same process. I mean, I could use slightly more swear words and my favorite swear word, that was the main difference. I'm not gonna go into that here. We won't go into that here. Other than that, you know, the characters, the plot, they did sort of need to be old.

We talk about taxes at some point, so that, oh my God. Oh yes, I do, I remember that. I'm making this book sound so boring. I swear it's not about taxes. They're just mentioned. Well, the things you can never avoid, death and taxes. It will exactly. You know, just coming back, you talk about talking about the word debut.

When you got your first book deal, you discovered that you had the lowest advance of all the other debuts that you that you met publishing the same year. Yeah, there was that moment. I was like, what did you get? Tell me about that moment. Well, do you know, at the time, it's so hard to get published. It's so hard to get an agent. There are so many gatekeepers to actually succeeding here

that I was just thrilled to get the deal. And, you know, I always said in my mind, OK, like it's my first book deal. That's great. It's step one. I will then build from there and I'll just keep working really hard and like prove myself. So, yeah, the signs weren't great when I found out I had the lowest deal of of everybody. But as soon as the book came out and was that other writers being honest and transparent? Yeah, well, sort of in private.

Yeah, yeah. But it's but that, I mean, it kind of, I mean, harkens to the previous item in building that network of having trust and transparency. Yeah, I totally think there is value in being transparent about what authors are paid upfront, because often it is shockingly low. But then when the book came out and, you know, things were looking good, what it means is that I earned out my advance a little bit quicker. So like there was an advantage to it. But times were tricky in the lead up to publishing the book. But then if you just look at its journey, it just shows you, you don't need one of those big splashy debut deals

that gets write ups in the newspapers. I never had that. I didn't really have much attention at all. And I sort of owe everything to readers just being obsessive and unhinged and screaming about it on TikTok. Well, I was going through TikTok last night before meeting you. They're very passionate about you. Very, very, very. Booktok. Yeah, I love me and my readers have a very fun relationship. I would, I would liken it a little bit to me bullying them, but they love it.

I just tease them the whole time. I often leave Easter eggs in some of my online content where I'm hinting at future projects. They're very smart. And are running with it. All you have to do is just put in Holly's name or put in Jett's name at this stage probably, and it will also jump up. Do you think you talked about some of the older people in their twenties going to the YA fiction, do you think you'll bring some of those teenage, is it

mainly girls or is it also boys? I would say largely girls. If you look at my Instagram following it's like 98% girls. I'm like yes, I found my people. Will they come with you to the adult thing? I think so. I think I designed this book specifically so that it's more of a segue so that my teenage readers do feel welcome in this adult book for sure. And let's look into the future. I hear Richard Osman and Lee Child is in your sights. I keep getting in trouble for that, don't I?

Go on, tell us what you plan to do. Let me tell you, if a journalist is telling you, well, you're the best selling crime writer in the country, apart from two men who outsell you, what's going to be my obvious response? I'm going to beat them. But then, do you know what I forgot is that sarcasm doesn't sometimes come through in print journalism. It doesn't come through that well in print journalism. I sort of invoked a metaphor where I was like, I'm going to beat them up, a cage fight. But you know what? I fancy my chances.

Have you heard from either of them? No, they're too scared. Consider this. Consider this my appeal. This is the gauntlet thrown down. Come on, Richard Lee. Come on. Let's see what happens. I've been training. So we have the book. We have the second series coming out of A Good Girl's Guide to Murder. Yes. Is that enough to keep you busy? Absolutely not.

But every other thing that I have on my plate is top secret. And I would be fired from about a million institutions if I told you. But just know that I am busy working hard and there'll be lots more murdery stories coming your way. You'll come back to us with the next one. Certainly. Holly just try to stop me. Not Dead Yet is out this week.

It's a great read. 17th of July Thursday is when you can get it and it will also books and audio and all the rest. Thanks so much for coming in. Thank you very much for having me. I'm looking forward to Richard Osmond and Lee Childs now tweeting or posting on social media. Right, listener week starts in a couple of weeks and we need your ideas. Last year we covered our relationship. Do you remember the Tummies? That was Lossy Dryden was in.

We talked about leaving a legacy when you're single. How about getting rid of your possessions, living in a van? Lots of people loved that one. Many more as well. So what would you like us to feature this year on the programme? Maybe there's something you'd like us to explore. Is there something fun we're not thinking about, something you think we should be angry about or laughing about, the number to text 84844 on social media at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. Loving to see

what your creativity is going to bring us this year. Right. As I mentioned to Holly there, all this week, we're taking a deep dive into the world of gaming. Yesterday, if you were with us, we had the gaming reporter, Frankie Ward. We also had the Twitch streamer, Aliska, on the current situation for women in gaming. Today, we're finding out more about the impact gaming can have on women's lives. Now, one group that is bringing women together in the gaming world is Black Girl Gamers, also known as BGG. They started out as this small Facebook group in 2015, but they now are made up of more than 10,000 black women around the world.

So I headed down to the Virgin Media Gamepad at the O2 to speak to some of the women involved. I'm making my way upstairs surrounded by neon lights. Let me see it says it's the stairway to gaming heaven. It also says rise to the challenge. If you think of a gaming space, yep this is it. There's a huge screen to play games and I've planned to meet a group of women here to find out more about why gaming is such a big part of their lives. Let's go find them. I'm right behind you as well. No, no, no.

Thank you for telling me you were right behind me. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I can even tell from outside that it's quite raucous in there. Let's go in and meet part of the black girl gamers community. Hello everyone. I am sorry I'm going to have to interrupt your game. Is that all right? What are you playing?

We're playing, what are we playing? Crash team racing. I almost forgot, I was about to call it Mario Kart and almost forgot. Yeah, we're playing crash team racing. Why am I so bad at this game? I cannot help you. That's because I'm a black girl. I'm a black girl.

I'm a black girl. I'm a black girl. I'm a black girl. I'm a black girl. I'm a black girl. I almost forgot, I was about to call it Mario Kart and I almost forgot. Yeah, we're playing Crash Team Racing. Why am I so bad at this game? I do not know, I cannot help you. Is there going to be a skill issue? Sitting here I have with me Aisha aka 14toast2 Deanne aka Indiri and Adobe aka AdobeStu I'm going to start with you Aisha. AKA 14TOES2. Deanne, AKA IndyDee. And Adobe, AKA AdobeS2.

I'm gonna start with you, Aisha. How would you describe the impact that gaming's had on your life? I would say gaming has had quite a big impact on me in the sense that it is, when I was younger, I didn't really game in communities. I gamed very much solo. So I remember like the first time

I ever found any friends online. I remember playing Call of Duty Black Ops. And I always remember I had a friend online. Shout out Trout Fisher wherever you are. That was like one of my first online gaming friends. He was like a grown man who had a family. And now as an adult, community has been like such a big thing. Black Girl Gamers has like introduced me to so many people. I didn't know there was other black female gamers like me. I thought I was a bit of an anomaly, I'm not going to

lie. I like the fact that I'm not. But yeah, there was a point where I thought maybe it's just me. There aren't other people who play these games. Like everyone I talk to is a grown man with a family, you know, or a young boy. It was, yeah, so Black Girl gamers really opened my eyes to the people that are out there that you can connect with, and I think gaming has allowed me to connect. Some of my closest friends are people I've met in the gaming space, and I've known them maybe for only like up to like four or five years, but some of them are some of my closest friends,

even though I'm what, I'm three decades and some old. That is young. And but with that, those people that you consider close friends, have you met them in real life? Yes. OK, let me turn over to my right. The hand has just gone up. So what was that like meeting in person for the first time? In a way, it just felt normal

because when you're streaming, when you're live streaming, you talk to people all the time. You get to know people's character, you get to know people's mindset and how they feel about certain things. When you do meet people in person, it's very much like, oh, hey, you're right, I just spoke to you yesterday, how's everything going?

Like it didn't feel like it was a nerve-racking experience at all. It sounds to me like you get to know them before you meet them in real life. Yeah it's almost like a try before you buy situation isn't it? It's like you know honestly it's just it's really nice because you know they because you know they can see you but you can't see them but you still have the idea in your mind you know this is the kind of, they can see you but you can't see them but you still have the idea in your mind, you know, this is the kind of person I can't wait to meet them because we just get it, you know. And have those shared interests of course as well. But you, even Diana, you'd go as far as to

say that gaming changed your life. Why? Because, you know, growing up, especially for young black women, to us it was really hard. You know, a lot of things were a struggle and gaming is something that just allows you to escape, you know, when times are tough and things are rough and you get to meet people that are just like you, that look like you, that, you know, feel the same way that you do. And gaming is just a whole universe of people who just get it. You know, everybody understands, everybody wants to escape,

and it just gives you a more chill, calmer mindset. Let me come over to you, Adobe. What would you say has been the impact on your life of gaming when you, I suppose, look back on from that first game to where you are now? When I'm feeling, if I'm feeling stressed, I'm not feeling really good. I just pop in and pop out into a video game. I might not go online because going online might stress you a bit more because people, people. Well, this is the thing I was thinking of just as you were speaking there, Adobe. We

often talk about online abuse. How would you describe it in the gaming world for women at Adobe? Or even if you'd be specific, black women? We know that there are certain things that we experience when we're online. I know if I turn on my mic and I open my mouth, somebody's going to not be happy with it. As a black woman? Yep. And if I'm speaking, especially right now, I know, yes, I'm speaking more with an English accent now, but if I go down and I start speaking with a more Nigerian accent,

am I getting... Oh, God, it gets into something else entirely. The first thing you're always going to go, go make me a sandwich. They're never original. Do they? Is that really what I'm... Yeah, I kid you not. I wish I was kidding. Go make me a sandwich.

Go, you know, go wash the clothes, go. It is very stupid. But it becomes so stupid because you hear it all the time that you, it really goes like, seriously, you guys could do better. And there are times I really generally go, do better. How has it been for you, Deanne? It's kind of been up and down,

but there's a nice little mode called mute. So I just don't, listen, I just turn it off. I don't listen to them. I'm just like, the scoreboard will just tell everything. Give me an example. Oh, wow. How much time do you have? Can we get a time check, please? So basically, everybody has, like, their own character. Their own character has certain powers.

And you can have, like, certain legendary weapons that are very overly powered. Now if people overuse them, there's a lot of abuse. They'll be like, oh, why are you using that? You're being cheap. You're being dirty. Why are you playing like that? Mute.

I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. If you're losing to a weapon that you know how it works, avoid it. I can't stop you from losing points and I can't stop myself from winning if you keep running into the weapon. I can't do anything for you. So, you know, it's just very much like, yeah,

you're doing this to yourself and you have like five other teammates to help you and you're still doing it. So when the leaderboard comes up, I'm at the top of the leaderboard and you're at the bottom, don't cry, it's not my fault. Going to a group of members that also experience that kind of thing, even just going to the venting section on Discord is really lovely.

Okay, let's stop there. There is a venting section on Discord and Discord is another social media platform. And there is a venting section and sometimes just me reading, not just me providing, just me reading. I'm like, thank you. And what do you vent about there? Some people's personal, some people's professional, some people just need to let it out. The whole point is like it's a no judgment free zone.

You can just do what you need to do. Some people might think that people venting online in whatever format or forum can be something negative or hate-filled, but it's not that. I don't think what I'm hearing. I think it's really important to also note that this isn't just like an open forum where anyone can go and rant. This is specifically so within Discord, you create communities. So it's not just like any Tom, Dick and Harry coming in and being like, I am so angry.

It is a genuinely safe space that has been curated by the people who are hosting these communities. It does provide us a space to discuss with people who experience very similar situations to us and be able to express it in a way without feeling like we're being judged or we're being too much or being aggressive. We're just frustrated and maybe the way we express it isn't the way that someone else would appreciate it. So this provides us a space to express that safely.

You know, I'm struck by two things you say there. If you're being accused of being too much or aggressive. The stereotypes aren't they really? And I think as a black woman it is very easy to be riled up by these things. So having a space where you can go and share your feelings about being like, oh you're just being aggressive or you're just overreacting.

People actually being like, do you know what? I'm not gonna lie, if that was me I would have been a bit upset too. So then responses and then things, it's just like a validation of your feelings and I think that does matter in these spaces, it doesn't matter who you are. Having your feelings validated, especially when you have been wrong done by, it matters no matter

who you are. Personally I've only ever experienced it in small dribs and drabs but that's because of how I play online. I don't care about hearing my team, I don't care about hearing you and if I'm playing with people I know, it's always mute. For me, like, it's been a hard few years. It's been hard, but you know what? Gaming allows us to be ourselves when we can't be ourselves and allows us to really like draw in on those things and work through things. Streaming is the same thing. Being able to know people in real life and knowing that they're going through stuff, I'm going through stuff but we can get through it, you know? that's gaming. Gaming is just, it means a lot. Thanks so much to Deanne, Aisha, Dobie for letting me join their gaming session. It was

really fun to hang out with them and see what it meant to them. But their conversation got me wondering why we feel the way we do when we play video games, you know, some of the aspects that the Black Girl gamers were describing. I was joined by neuroscientist Dr. Faber Getty to give us more of an insight and she began by telling me what is going on in our brains when we game. Different types of games will activate different brain regions. So for example, if you're playing a strategy or a puzzle game that's going to stimulate your thinking brain, the prefrontal cortex a bit more, fast-paced games may activate motor areas for quick reactions and precisions. And of course, depending how and the way that we engage with the game, we may well activate

the brain's reward system as well as areas involved in emotion regulation. That's really interesting then. So it's not like one uniform response. Yesterday we spoke about some games that maybe people wouldn't put under the banner of gaming. For example, online chess, Wordle. Any particular response to those with our brains? Chess is a game and it's a very classic game. I mean, humans have been gaming for centuries. And specifically chess enhances a lot of different brain regions involved in planning, strategy and working memory. But more word based games such as words or even doing a crossword would stimulate the language areas of our brain.

And stimulating that language area, does that do anything for our brain health? Anytime we challenge the brain it grows. People are not so much aware of that because our skull stays the same shape right? But we do get reduction in brain volume as we age and studies show the more that we challenge the more what we call a scientist cognitive reserve that we build. So if at a later date we are afflicted by any sort of condition, we have more reserve in the bank before we start to show symptoms. One of the themes that comes up repeatedly when we speak about gaming is community. Do you think community online is the same as socializing in person?

Does it give our brain the same kick? I think true sort of definition of community would be everybody coming together and working towards a common goal and that's certainly the case when it comes to gaming. Certain types of people, whether it's you know more introverted people, neurodiverse people, they might find it easier to communicate with people online, whether it's more introverted people, neurodiverse people, they might find it easier to communicate with people online, whether it's by text, not having to interpret facial expressions, whether they feel less self-conscious. So there's definitely benefits to being online.

It certainly doesn't replace in-person social activities, but it can certainly complement them is what I would say. Let's talk about some of the potential physical benefits as well when it comes to eyesight, for example, or levels of concentration. Yeah, so if you're playing a really fast-paced game, then you can't take your eye off the ball, so to say. So your attention regions would be activated and that would improve your reaction time, will improve if you have to respond to things very quickly. Eye sight does improve in a way that you're able to process multiple things on a screen,

but I would be cautious when it comes to eye sight because we are seeing increasing level of short sightedness and that's not necessarily to do with gaming, to do with reading at a close distance, reading things on a screen as well. So we have developed to be able to look at a variety of distances. So I would recommend people take breaks and they make sure they're looking sort of far into the distance, going outside, sort of really trying to develop their eyesight in a variety of ways. And what about negative impacts that gaming could have on us? What are

they? Firstly to say that if you are engaging in healthy balanced gaming and you're regulating your use then it doesn't have any negative impacts. But the issues that I see they mainly arise when it's excessive or unregulated use. So for example, if there's excessive late night gaming that can disrupt sleep, which we know really benefits the brain a whole variety of ways. If it's replacing other activities and it means you're sedentary for a long period of time, that can increase a lot of conditions, including obesity and cardiovascular risk factors.

And also it can become problematic when it starts to either interfere with your personal or your professional responsibilities or when it really socially isolates you. Which I suppose at that point would perhaps be termed a gaming addiction. Is that common? It's actually really, really rare. So we have a definition of gaming disorder that to give people an idea that gaming was this has the reputation of being addictive it is much much much less addictive than something like alcohol which is you know freely available and many people drink and the thing with gaming is that you can get into a really problematic behavioral pattern but it's not like other type of substance addictions. It doesn't chemically alter the brain like drugs or alcohol.

It is your own brain producing its own chemicals. You're not actually ingesting anything externally. But that doesn't mean that if you are struggling with excessive gaming, then seeking help is definitely appropriate. So interesting as you talk about substances. But going back to the positive effects of it again, some talk about it helping them through difficult times, for example, or that it can help them with their confidence. Why is that, do you think? Yeah, both of those things true. This is something I see.

So if somebody's going through a difficult time, taking this period of time to engage in some gaming, it can help them enter a different world, provide that sort of emotional distraction and escapism that they need for their brain to sort of rest and not constantly be processing those negative emotions. a real sense of achievement and mastering and being able to incrementally move through levels. But at the same time, it's a really safe space for people to fail and realize that that is okay. And I can approach the problem in different ways and that can increase the confidence that you have in your ability. Dr. Fabigietti there, we will be continuing our series about women and gaming tomorrow,

speaking to two designers working at the heart of the games industry. Do join us for that. And keep your comments coming as well. 84844. Here's one love the mention by Deborah Wascoe that we stand on the shoulders of giants. The problem is that this feminist recognition is not appreciated by male entrepreneurs and leaders. and so they continue to exploit our knowledge and experience while we're busy rightly pulling others up and praising others success. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now to a story that I want to let you know some of you may find very distressing. Yesterday saw the long-awaited verdict in the Constance Martin and Mark Gordon retrial. The couple have been found guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence. This is more than two

years after the body of their baby Victoria had been discovered in a shopping bag in Brighton. The couple went on the run with their newborn daughter. It is thought to avoid authorities. There was an earlier trial at the same court which found them guilty of concealing the birth of a child, perverting the course of justice by not reporting her death and of child cruelty, the latter of which could not be reported until now. BBC News correspondent Helena Wilkinson has been in the court during these trials and in one of the most read articles on the BBC News website right now

she writes that she's never seen a case like it. You're very welcome to the program. Helenana, why did you call this case jaw-dropping? I've covered a lot of criminal trials, especially at the Old Bailey, and seen many defendants in all sorts of scenarios accused of different crimes. There are defendants who I've seen who have been disruptive during their trial but nothing on the scale of disruption that was caused by both Constance Martin and Mark Gordon. As you say, their first trial was last year. They faced a retrial on two of the most serious charges they were facing,

and it was absolutely extraordinary to sit through those cases. They were disruptive, they spoke from the dock, chatted to each other often as if they weren't on trial, they refused to turn up to court, they claimed to be ill but we heard while the jury weren't in the courtroom that often medical notes arrived from prison to the Old Bailey to the judge which said that they were actually medically fit to come to court. The judge, and he's the most senior judge at the Old Bailey, his honour, Judge Mark Leucraft KC, accused them of trying to sabotage and manipulate their retrial. It nearly collapsed a number of times because of their behaviour. They sacked countless barristers. And to give you just a sense of

just how extraordinary the case was in terms of the number of barristers, Constance Martin, and typically on a case like this, a defendant for these serious charges would have two barristers, so a Kings Council, the senior barrister, and also what they call a junior barrister. Since their first hearing at the Old Bailey in 2023, up until the case when it ended yesterday, she had got through 14 barristers. And a source close to one of her former legal teams, we asked them why she had got through so many and they said because she is entitled and doesn't listen to instructions. Their trials were significantly delayed. They overran by about three months the first one, the second one by around two months. So it was unending disruption and they caused disruption not just when the jury were not in court but also in front of jurors as well. They repeatedly ignored

the judges instructions not to speak to each other during breaks in their evidence and I just but also in front of jurors as well. They repeatedly ignored the judge's instructions not to speak to each other during breaks in their evidence. And I'll just read you one striking comment that the judge made. He made many, many comments about their behaviour during the cases. This is, as I say, the most senior judge at the Old Bailey. There was one occasion when Constance Martin was so rude to him, so disrespectful that he sent her down to the cells. Before she was then brought up, the judge said to the barristers in the room that at one point he had two teenagers who had been in his court the previous week who the judge said were rather better behaved than Constance Martin and he added, and they pleaded guilty to murder,

and he also said in his 13 years sitting as a full-time judge, he had never had that sort of attitude shown to him by anybody when he was talking about Constance Martin on one occasion. It was absolutely extraordinary. And as you say, we have a piece on our website, on the BBC News website today, really going through a lot of the detail that we weren't able to report during the case, because of course it would prejudice the case endures. But we are now given it's the end of the trial that we are able to report those behind the scenes moments that we all saw when we were sat in court, but can only now report. And with this particular retrial I was mentioning

that they've been found guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence. What will that mean or do we know when there might be a sentence? Yes, so there was some discussion about sentencing yesterday after the verdicts were delivered in court. The judge says he expects the sentence to take place in the week of the 15th of September. Just to give you a flavour of the moment when those guilty verdicts were read by the jury informant in court, they guilty for gross negligence manslaughter. Those were the more serious charges that they were facing the couple. They were facing alternative charges,

but the jury found them guilty of gross negligence manslaughter. After the jurors went out, serious charges that they were facing the couple. They were facing alternative charges. But the jury found them guilty of gross negligence manslaughter. After the jurors went out, Constance Martin shouted out, it's a sham. Mark Gordon then shouted out, it's unfair, how he has done. He said that repeatedly while jurors have not been in the court during the retrial, that things have not been unfair. He actually ended up representing himself because his barristers withdrew from his case. And then he said yesterday at the hearing after the verdicts and the jury had left the courtroom that he was actually happy with the result because he said he would win the appeal. So clearly he is intending to try to seek permission to appeal but we'll

have to wait and see what happens with that. Do you think there'll be any wider implications of this case? I suppose there's so many details that have come to light really over the past 24 hours. Of course this was about, so sadly about their baby Victoria, but also the fact that they have four other children that are in care. Yes they do. Victoria was their fifth child. Their four other children had been taken into care and the BBC News led a legal challenge which resulted in the publication of some judgments from the family court yesterday which really provided insight into the couple's chaotic life together

and the danger that judges in the family court decided that they posed to their four children. So they have been known to social services for many, many years. Just to give you an example of what the papers reveal from the family court, just one example is that Mark Gordon did not call 999 after Constance Martin fell from the window and he refused to let paramedics into their home to treat her. A national safeguarding review is underway. It will look into Victoria's death but also, as you said, the wider potential implications to avoid such a tragedy happening again and we understand that that should report back at some time in September.

There is of course more on the background of Constance Martin and also Mark Gordon in your piece but just in my last 30 seconds or so Helena, I think the dynamic between the two of them, which you've alluded to, also seem to be so shocking really I suppose in that court of law. Yes you normally see co-defendants not behave the way they did. They've been together for about 10 years and I saw them in the dock, we watched the ups and downs of their relationship. It was obvious they were very much in love, fixated on each other and obsession is how Mark Gordon told police how he felt about Constance Martin.

So they presented really as a couple in court rather than co-defendants. At one point Constance Martin said to Mark Gordon, will you stop flirting with me? And then on her 38th birthday in the courtroom before the judge came in and the jury came in, they had a lingering embrace in the dock and I heard her say playfully to him, where's my presence? So this was a couple who were so fixated on each other, that's how they appeared in the dock and really against everyone else in the courtroom. With such a sad, sad story that is surrounding it on the death of baby Victoria. Our BBC News correspondent, Helena Wilkinson, thank you so much, her piece is up online. If you have been affected by the issues we've been discussing in this story there is help and support available via the BBC

Action Line. Do join us tomorrow Claire Waxman, London's independent victims commissioner, will be with us. She has a new report out. She says there is near total failure in seeing offenders brought to justice. Also the actor Miranda Raison discusses her new role as Ellen Terry, one of the greatest stars of the Victorian stage. Sharon, got in touch. I loved your interview with Holly Jackson. My 14 year old granddaughter introduced me to her work, which I really, really like.

It was a great point of contact and conversation between us. She's 14 years of age and I am 73. Lovely message. 84844. Always if you want to get in touch. What about those ideas for listeners weeks? I'll see you same time same place tomorrow on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello my name is Alex von Tanzelmann and I want to introduce you to history's heroes, the BBC's breathtaking, high-stakes, story-led podcast shining a light on extraordinary people and ordinary people who become extraordinary, including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers.

You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. And the woman who created the international charity Save the Children. Subscribe to History's Heroes on BBC Sounds.