Woman's Hour - Author Jane Fallon, Two mothers talk about daughters' deaths, Netball World Cup, Young women and loneliness, Nouhaila Benzina

Episode Date: July 31, 2023

In 2018, two new mothers died weeks apart after giving birth in two Kent hospitals from a herpes infection. Kimberley Sampson and Samantha Mulcahy both had c-sections and contracted herpes before or around the delivery of their babies. That’s according to an inquest into their deaths that has just concluded - that their mothers, Nicola Foster and Yvette Sampson, say doesn’t give enough answers as to what actually happened. Both Nicola and Yvette joins Nuala to talk about their daughters and what’s next in their fight for the truth.Morocco defender Nouhaila Benzina has made history by becoming the first player to wear a hijab at a World Cup. Nuala discusses with Shaista Aziz, co-director of the Three Hijabis, a trio of British Muslim women working to make football free of racism and discrimination.Before becoming a full-time writer, Jane Fallon was a multi-award-winning television producer behind shows such as This Life, Teachers and 20 Things to Do Before You’re 30. She has written a dozen best-selling novels including Getting Rid of Matthew and Got You Back, which is being made into a musical with music by Roxette. She joins Nuala to discuss her latest book, Over Sharing, and its themes of influencers, projecting the perfect life on social media, fake profiles, revenge and 'frenemies'.All this week on the programme we’re looking at loneliness and in particular loneliness among young women. This is because the stats tell us that young people are the age group most likely to say they are lonely – and women of any age are more likely to say they are lonely than men. Today Nuala is joined by two women who tell us about their experience of loneliness. Beth McColl is 30 and Rachael Devine is 33. The Women’s Netball World Cup is underway in Cape Town. It’s the first time the competition has been held in Africa - and will see 16 teams battling it out for a place in the final on 6 August. Broadcaster Kath Merry is in South Africa following all the action, and updates Nuala McGovern on the latest news.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Well, there are lots of photos this morning of Nuhaila Benzina. She's dressed in a white kit with her teal football boots. The Morocco defender has made football history by becoming the first player to wear a hijab at a World Cup. We're going to speak to one of the three hijabis, a group of women working to eradicate racism in football. That'll be this hour. And they are celebrating New Hala this morning.

We also want to talk about loneliness. I'm looking forward to my conversation with two young women who want to talk about the thing that is often not talked about very openly. Loneliness is something that many of us go through at various points in our lives and research shows that it's women who report feeling most lonely, particularly prevalent in young women. So why is that? Well, all this week we're going to look at loneliness through the prism of health, of the economy, design and also coping mechanisms. Maybe you're going through this or maybe you've come through it.

What triggered the loneliness if you know? And what helped resolve it if you have managed to do that? You can text the programme, the number is 84844. On social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website, a WhatsApp message or voice note. That number is 03700 100 444. We're going to talk

about my guests' experiences and also the stigma around admitting to being lonely. Maybe there's an expectation to not be lonely in a social media age. And that intersects with some of the themes in Jane Fallon's new novel, Oversharing. It's a very modern tale of the damage that can be wreaked when revenge, whether justified or not, is meted out online. And in the book, one woman tries to take down a mumfluencer. Mumfluencer. And it does make for tense and an engrossing read. So Jane Fallon will be with us in studio. I'm looking forward also to speaking to her. But let me begin because back in 2018, two new mothers died just weeks after giving birth in two hospitals in Kent after getting a herpes infection. Kimberly Sampson and Samantha Mulcahy both had caesarean sections seven weeks apart.

Now, five years later, an inquest into their deaths has ended, finding that both women died of multiple organ failure following a disseminated herpes infection before or around the delivery of their babies. And it's an inquest that their mothers, Yvette Sampson and Nicola Foster, waited years for.

But they say it doesn't give enough answers into what actually happened. I should say the BBC also investigated their deaths in 2021. Both Yvette and Nicola are joining me now to talk about that inquest and what comes next. Welcome to you both. Hello. I want to begin with the inquest, and I'm so sorry for your loss with both of you and your daughter's death. And I want to hear about both your daughters as well during this interview. But with the inquest, you've been waiting five years for these answers.

Yvette, you first. What gaps still remain for you? I think many gaps remain. Our point, we fought so hard to get the inquest and many answers haven't materialised. I would say the biggest is obviously where they acquired and how they acquired the infection has not been given to us so we don't have that answer and again partly for me I really do feel it's because the staff were not tested and there was a lab well two labs that did the testing that thought the virus came from a common source and requested that testing and that testing wasn't done. So that's a big part of it, not knowing and whether

we will ever know how they acquired the infection. So let me also just give another few details to my listeners. Your daughters died seven weeks apart. At the time, officials said their deaths were not linked. A 2021 BBC investigation found that both operations were performed by the same surgeon. During the inquest this year, the coroner concluded that

it was unlikely that the surgeon was the source of the infection. They were not tested, the staff, as you mentioned, including that surgeon. What was your reaction to that conclusion? And maybe I'll turn to you, Nicola. To be honest, I was disgusted with the whole inquest because, you know, like Yvette said, if that surgeon had been tested right at the very beginning, we wouldn't have had to go through what we've been through the last five years

and to be no nearer to knowing exactly how the girls acquired it. The surgeon, who cannot be named for legal reasons, told the inquest that his hands were fully scrubbed, double-gloved, and he was wearing a mask during procedures. Your response to that, Nicola, first? Well, during the inquest, there were witnesses who said this didn't always happen not necessarily with the surgeon but this didn't always happen and it would have been very difficult for the surgeon to know whether the glove would have been broken bearing in mind

the procedure that he was carrying out. And with both girls, the procedure wasn't that straightforward. The cesarean. Let me turn back to you, Yvette, on those points, particularly the surgeon saying double gloved. I feel he may have been double gloved I don't know he may have been wearing a mask but Kim's operation was lengthy it was not a straightforward cesarean I do know she lost a lot of blood I think it was four and a half pints of blood. She needed blood transfusions. So I imagine it was a frantic operation. And I'm not saying it did happen, but you're not sure in that situation whether your mask can be foolproof, whether it could slip, whether there could be a tear in a glove i'm not sure i'm not sure of the process i understand what he's saying but as nikki said we heard evidence where other people said

people didn't always wear masks it wasn't always compulsory um i know that was probably different people within that theater but we heard different versions of events. Also from the coroner to give that response, the coroner was Miss Wood. She found that on the balance of probabilities, I'm quoting, it was unlikely that the obstetrician in common was the common source of infection. In part, as the trust had never tested the surgeon back in 2018, were you given a reason, Yvette, why the surgeon was not tested or the staff indeed, as you indicated? We weren't given a reason, but when we asked if there was a link, we weren't even told there was a midwife or surgeon in common. That is what came about in 2021 so we never asked for well we didn't ask for a reason because we didn't know two people were involved with the same in both Sam and Kim's care and we had asked

was there anyone involved the same and then they came back to us well they didn't come back to us that was the problem we said they said they were still looking into it which we knew by the time I asked that question they knew the two staff members in common we can see that by the paperwork we've had and from the paperwork from the public health England trial email trials and micropath that they felt there was a common source with the test they'd done they said it said it couldn't be certain. They had requested testing. For whatever reason, the testing wasn't done.

I think at one point when we went back and asked that question, we were told the testing would still not 100% prove it was the surgeon or midwife, but it certainly could rule them out if they'd had the test. I understand. To read also, Veta Nicola Little from East Kent Hospitals University NHS Foundation Trust

who are involved, Ms Fletcher, the chief executive, apologised after the inquest for the additional and unnecessary suffering the trust has caused your families

through failing to answer the questions after Kimberly and Samantha's deaths and contributing to the delays in the inquest being heard. She said the trust was changing the way it responds when things go wrong, saying they're truly sorry. But I did also see that the coroner said that she hopes you can try and put this stage behind you and rebuild your lives and Nicola I want to hear from you do you think that's possible? At the moment we're getting on with our lives because we've had to but but just we i can't put this behind me at the moment because i know that we know we've got no nearer the answers than when we started you know um it's clearly obvious that um they weren't truthful with us at the beginning they should have told us there was a connection and they didn't my big question is why why didn't they

tell us so no at the moment i don't see how we can go forward i'd like to say goodbye to my daughter properly um and be able to move forward but at the moment um i don't feel i can do that and nicole could i ask you about your daughter, Samantha, what she was like? She was actually a really special person. As a child, she was really well behaved. She never complained, even when she was poorly. As she grew up, she always knew what she wanted in her life. She was really happy when she met Ryan.

They got married um this was going to be you know another exciting part of their life um which has been sadly taken away from ryan and thea um she was never and she never sam always had a good word for everybody she never held grudges she never got upset by people saying things she was just a lovely kind person again i'm so sorry for your loss and to you yvette tell us about kimberly yeah i mean bright bubbly she was a fun love do you mean she enjoyed life i would say she was quite adventurous children um she would go reasons in cyprus she went to batman's um adventurers she jumped out of a plane she jumped off yeah she she she life but after some after her experience the main thing is she wanted to be a mom as i said she had her first child in 15 a daughter jasmine hey her second child albie and then everything.

But her main thing, she so wanted to be a mum and have a family. I understand. And your line broke up a tiny bit there, but what we're hearing is she had her two children that she really wanted to be a mum, really adventurous, jumping out of planes, for example. And I think you begin to get an idea there of it, of the sort of person she was as well. But I'm thinking, Nicola and Yvette, you've obviously gone through this journey,

but not always together because you didn't actually meet until 2021, knowing of each other since 2018. What was that meeting like nicola uh emotional i think we cried quite a bit and we still do sometimes when we meet up um it's hard not to when you start to talk about them um yeah but it we've definitely got a connection i don't think going through what we have um yeah it's nice to have say it's nice it's helpful to have somebody else that actually really understands what you're going through i understand that and with this um there is talk of a potential judicial review

is that right nicola is that what you're thinking of next? Seriously thinking about it, yes. Because I believe there is other evidence to show that potentially this could have been contracted in hospital. I don't think we were given everything during the inquest that we requested. I know Yvette had things that weren't handed over during the inquest. So, yeah, we are seriously considering it. Let me throw that over to you, Yvette. What are your thoughts at the moment?

There is a lot I feel is still outstanding. Well, I have got a list that we requested more than once. We requested some documents materialised throughout the inquest. First and mostly, I would get hold of those documents and then see where that takes me. Also with the evidence, I know the doctor under things and I know he said... I'm sorry, I'm going to jump in there for a second

and I'm sorry about to do this. It's just I don't want your words to be misconstrued in any way with that, because I know it's breaking up a little bit and I'm missing a few of the words. But I get the point that you're saying that you want more documents and you want to take a look before. Definitely. Yeah, before deciding what this next step might be. But going back to you, Nicola nicola on this wouldn't that be expensive doesn't it come with a cost are you thinking about that i i realize that and i'm sure you know

that um it's something we're gonna have to think about really hard but um i i'm not i just i'm not sure what I want to do next, but I just know that I can't give up yet. I want to thank both of you so much for speaking to us, to Yvette and Nicola, and also for sharing your memories of Kimberley and also Samantha. The story will continue to follow.

But thank you very much for coming on Woman's Hour today. And I want to apologise just for that line with Yvette just at the end. It was giving up on us a little bit, so I just had to cut away from Yvette. But we thank her, of course, very much for joining us. Now, if you want to get in touch, 84844 is the way to do it. Some of you are already about loneliness. That's what I'm asking this morning. And in particular,

have you been touched by it? Did you find a way through it? How are you finding it? Here's one. Beware. Often the friends who tell you you're fine on your own and men are no good anyway

are the ones who have a permanent partner and even children. But at this moment, just want to offload on you before they return to their cosy home. Here's another i was sent uh to work from home from march 2020 i'm not in a team at work so i can go days without speaking to anyone i'm slowly building friendships outside

of work but while i'm sat at my desk i'm deeply lonely it can get desperate at times but it seems i'm the only one i don't have a name for you but I have a feeling you are probably not. 84844 is the number if you want to get in touch with Woman's Hour. Now, I want to turn on to a little bit of football. Ireland, I think.

No, they're not playing until 11. I'll have half an eye on that. They're out of the World Cup but they're playing in Nigeria and they want to kind of play to keep their place of pride is what I was reading from their manager. But let us talk about Morocco instead. And in particular, the defender, Nuhayla Benzina. She has made history by becoming the first player

to wear a hijab at a World Cup. The 25-year-old wore the Islamic headscarf as she made her first appearance at the football tournament in her side's 1-0 win over South Korea. Shaista Aziz is the co-director of the Three Hijabis, a trio of British Muslim women who are working to make football

free of racism and discrimination. So that's her goal. So good to have you with us, Shaista. Your reaction first to seeing all those pictures this morning because it's flashed across a lot of the newspapers and to describe to our listeners that haven't seen it,

she's dressed fully in white, including a white hijab, the teal football boots in full action on that pitch. Yes. Hi, good morning. Yes, so Nohalia Benzina has made history in 2023 as the first ever Muslim woman to play football at the World Cup wearing a headscarf. And as you say, there's wonderful photographs of her beaming with pride. Also, you know, looking very sporty and athletic, as you'd expect her to. But yeah, it's an uplifting image and it has deep resonance for many Muslim women across the world.

Those who choose to wear the hijab and those who don't want to wear the hijab and, you know, everybody else in between. I think it is really incredible that in 2023 an image like this is so powerful for so many women and girls. It's about representation and, you know, good on her and good on the Moroccan team. And they won on top of that. She's also the first hijabi to get a yellow card.

Yes, indeed. And why not? Right. So I think, you know, the fact that she's not actually gone on record to talk about the fact that she's chosen to wear a headscarf in life and as a football player is also very significant. She's clearly very proud of her visibility as a Muslim woman in a headscarf. She's put lots of beautiful images up on her social media feeds. But I think we have to be a little bit careful here because frequently women who choose to wear the headscarf, we are reduced to nothing more than our headscarf. And sometimes people find it quite incredible that we are multifaceted women and we play football and we have careers and our existence is reduced to our choice at this stage, you know, of the global stage wearing a headscarf, a time when we're gearing up for France, who will be holding the

world, be holding the Olympic Games next year. And in France, very recently, the Senate there upheld their rule to prevent women in headscarves from playing football. And this is one of the reasons why this really matters. And it also really emphasises how the hijab is, you know, how it becomes so politicised, not by Muslim women, but by everybody else, which is dangerous and which really needs to stop. And I wonder what will happen then, because France would say it is a secular state

and pushes it back against any images of religious observance. What would you respond to that? So I would say that I'm someone who believes in secularism. I think secularism is good for society and it upholds all our rights. What I'm not, what I don't believe in is extreme secularism and indeed extreme religion. So for me, these are opposite ends of the spectrum. And so in 2023, for France to be preventing women

who want to play football from doing so because of wearing their headscarf is a human rights issue. It's unacceptable. And let's not forget that France has the largest multiracial Muslim population of Europe and has increasing numbers of young people who feel alienated from being seen as fully rounded French citizens. And not so long ago, we saw those riots taking place across working class multiracial neighborhoods of France in relation to, you know, the police killing of a young boy, a young teenager of color.

So all of these issues do intersect. So I think for France to give cover to its hijab ban on the basis that this is about upholding secularism. It doesn't wash and neither should it. But do you think then with this image of Nuhela Benzina, could this change what is happening in France, do you think? I think it's going to take a lot for things to change in France. There is a very deep-se a denial of Islamophobia in France in the name of liberalism, in the name of protecting secularism, which obviously is important. But I think France is a very special case in the sense that, you know, the very blatant discrimination of Muslim women who choose to wear hijab from public and political and

indeed all forms of life is really, really problematic. And I think it's really right that it is under the microscope and it is focused on. This might change, I don't know, images of representation, perhaps. But back to you and your mission

to eradicate racism and discrimination from football. How's that going? Small task, isn't it, for a Monday morning? Well, you know, the fact that we, as three British Muslim women who choose to wear the hijab, we call ourselves the Three Hijabis, and we launched a petition following the men's Euro finals

at Wembley Stadium two years ago and the horrific levels of racism that were thrown at three young black England players. we've got 1.5 million signatures backing our call for football to ban racists um from the game um and you know we had boris johnson the prime minister of the time making reference to us as well and our campaign so our campaign is ongoing we are continuing with our dialogue with the fa and the premier League and various other stakeholders. But if we were exactly who we are, but we lived in France, we would not be able to launch that campaign. We would not have been able to get involved in the debate around this issue because we are hijabi women. I might need to come back to France another time.

On a positive note, you have been awarded a fellowship to do research into the game. So what are you going to look at exactly in our last few minutes? Yeah so I've been awarded a Churchill fellowship to go out and research how to make football more equitable for Muslim women and girls. My focus is going to be the UK there's a lot of great work being done in this country but a lot more needs to happen. I'll be going to France to go in here directly for Muslim women and girls being prevented from playing football. And the curveball here is Pakistan. So this is a country where my family originate from.

And despite the fact that it has horrific rates of violence against women and girls, it has a thriving women and girls football sector. And this is after Pakistan, you know, basically won one of its Olympic qualifying matches against Tajikistan. So the team won't make it to the Paris Olympics. But that was a really big moment in the country's footballing history. And I'm pleased that the Pakistan Football Federation is really focusing on building the game for women and girls. And the spoiler alert in this research is it's not the faith. It's not Islam or Muslim women's hijabs that are preventing us from breaking through. It's the systemic oppression

and the system that needs to change to ensure that there is equality and there is equity for all of us. Shaista Aziz, co-director of the Three Hijabis. Thank you so much for joining us this morning as we continue to follow the Women's World Cup here on Women's Hour. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, we often hear words of wisdom being passed down the generations but how about the other way around? As part of our Listener Week

we want to hear the best life advice you've received from your young children. We know that kids can have insight well beyond their years and what have they said that's made you stop in your tracks and rethink what you're doing in the moment or even in your life.

Let us know about the words of wisdom being passed up the generations in your family. Get in touch to text, it's 84844, and social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour, or indeed you can email us through our website. Now, I want to move on to my next guest who's here in studio. Before becoming a full-time writer, Jane Fallon was a multi-award winning television producer behind shows such as This Life, Teachers,

20 Things to Do Before You're 30. And she's now written a dozen bestselling novels, including Getting Rid of Matthew, Worst Idea Ever and Got You Back. That's been made into a musical with music by Roxette. But her latest book is Oversharing. It explores the themes of influencers, projecting the perfect life on social media, fake profiles, revenge, frenemies,

and finding happiness, perhaps where you least expect it. You're very welcome to Women's Hour, Jane. Thank you for having me. Well, let us get into your latest novel, Oversharing, which I loved. This, I have to say, I was kind of on the edge of my seat reading a lot of it. I kind of had that feeling of when you think you might have sent a message to the wrong person. Yes, absolutely.

That was kind of the feeling. But in the middle are a couple of women. There's an influencer, Maddy. Tell us a little bit about why you decided to kind of zone in on that fraught world. So I always try and think about what we're all preoccupied with in the world at the moment. And, you know, what's going on, what's influencing our lives, if you like. So I've been thinking about social media a lot. And then actually, I was watching an American show called The Amazing Race, which is a bit like Race Around the World.

There are teams of two and there was one team who are a couple in, I would guess, their late 40s and they're full time influencers. They have millions of followers and they make videos with their family of young children. And they showed one and it was all they were all in matching pajamas and they were singing something singing along to something and they were dancing and it was just the cheesiest thing I've ever seen in my life but it made me think what are these people like in between these videos what are they like in their normal life because their whole they're making a fortune or you know a very good living from presenting this sort of perfect version of their life but obviously obviously, you can't be like that all the time. And I started to think about influencers and how actually it's quite stressful.

I imagine that, you know, you're putting your life out there for public criticism, but you're also putting out a completely perfect edited version of your life that you somehow have to keep up. Yeah, you have to stay on that treadmill to get it out. And where is the division, I suppose, between life and work in that particular instance as well? There is a, the central character is Iris or Rissa, she's also known. And, you know, it's fair to say she's not living her best life, perhaps. She does blame Maddy Mumfluencer, as I have to keep thinking how to say that word how would you describe Iris? I love Iris I feel bad for her. Do you? I do yeah I do I know that she does a bad thing I mean what she does in the book is as you say her life hasn't quite turned out how she hoped it would

she's in her late 40s. We don't have to give all the details of the plot. I won't give all the details of the plot but her husband has basically gone off with another woman. And that other woman, Maddy, is the influencer who features in my book. And Iris can't bear the hypocrisy of seeing Maddy out there preaching happy families and talking about the perfect marriage, how to have the perfect marriage. And so she does do a terrible thing, which is she, without really thinking, she leaves an anonymous comment on Maddie's feed, which says something like don't listen to this woman, she's a fraud, I have evidence. Obviously she shouldn't have done that. But she did it from a place of having had her life ruined. You know, she's

lonely, she hasn't had the baby she wanted. Even though it was years ago. It was years ago, but it catapulted a whole she will never now have the baby she so desperately wants because her marriage broke up at that stage in her life you know she's just she is feeling sorry for herself she shouldn't have done it in my books basically i always come down on the side of you shouldn't have done that with revenge like you shouldn't have done it but she does it and then she's stuck with the consequences

and uh it kind of spirals off in a lot of different ways. And I think you are pulling back really that curtain of social media and trying to understand who are these people that are participating in it. We often talk on Women's Hour, you know, about whether it's, you know, revenge that can take place online or fake profiles or trolling. How aware are you of those issues? Obviously, you have your own social media as well that you have to curate or manage. I do. I decided really early on. I was very nervous of social media when I joined. And I decided, I made a conscious decision

that I was going to have mine be a kind of happy place. So mine is all books and cats and, you know, the occasional funny thing. And if I get a nasty comment which we all do I just mute that person I'm not going to engage in an argument I'm not going to start a fight with someone I don't know because I just think it's not healthy but I think it's so easy to get caught up in it and it's not real life you wouldn't know what that person was saying about you if they weren't on your social media if they were on the other side of the country shouting it into the void you'd never know um but now we all do and i think we

have to find a way to navigate it and for me that is kind of ignoring a lot of it ignoring it is definitely one way to it um coming back to the book there's a real theme of we're going to talk about loneliness in just a minute with a couple of guests but i think that also is pervasive i found when I was reading it and also that theme of friendship so she has best friends she has Faye and she has Callie but they have children and I think there can be a path a road that diverges when that happens between really tight female friendships. Yeah I I think that's definitely true, especially when the children are small. And Iris, Faye and Callie had always said to each other,

we'll have our kids at the same time, we'll bring them all up together. And suddenly Iris hasn't got any kids and the other two have. And I think, you know, it's understandable. If you've got small babies, you probably want to spend time with other women who understand what you're going through and have got small babies as well. And I think Iris feels like she's not resentful of it but she does feel lonely she feels as if her friends now have this special bond that she can never be a part of and so she is kind of looking at her life and thinking it's all kind of gone wrong.

And as I mentioned we're going to speak a little bit more about loneliness in just a moment but I want to talk a little bit more about you because you started out your career as a TV producer, but you'd always wanted to write. And I love this phrase having from you a weird burst of perimonopausal bravery. Tell me about that. I think that's what it was. I wanted to write novels since I was literally five or six. And I never really told anyone. I would write all the time, but it seems such a ridiculous ambition to have such an unachievable thing. So TV... You really thought it was that unachievable because you were so successful in TV. I'm

thinking you can probably turn your hand to anything. No, I think I had this idea that you had to be sort of somehow born into a literary family or something and that no one was going to listen to anything I had to say. And also when I started writing books all the way up to my 40s, I would really overthink them and I would try and write something very literary. And they were terrible. I mean, they were truly terrible. And it was only in my mid 40s when I was bored with TV. I was trying to think up the teachers was coming to an end, I think, and I was trying to think up, the teachers was coming to an end, I think, and I was trying to think of an idea for a new TV show. And I just had this weird night

where I had the idea for Getting Rid of Matthew, which ended up being my first book. I wrote it down and liked the way I'd written it. And I thought that's how I have to write it in this sort of more conversational style, not picking over every word. And something in my perimenopausal bravado made me go into work and tell everyone that that's what I was going to do and that I was going to leave work and give this a go. And I don't know how it happened. And thank goodness it did. But I feel like a lot of friends of mine have said they've had similar sort of menopausal, perimenopausal spates of bravery, you know, decision making that they never would have done before.

And is it, you know, we often hear about how difficult it can be to be a writer and to actually sit down and write. How do you find it? It is difficult. It's not easy, is the truth, but I love it so much. I'm so grateful that I'm doing what I've always wanted to do. So I sit down every single day, regardless of whether I feel like it's coming or not. And I feel like as long as you're, some days it's terrible. How was it this morning?

This morning was bad, actually. This morning was not bad. Yeah. Some days you can't do it at all. But I feel like as long as you're doing something, if I'm really stuck, I'll write, I'll keep plodding along and it will be terrible. But I know I can rewrite it. I'll go back to a random chapter and work on that just do something and you know keep going when I was reading your book I was seeing it very much visually right I've already got these pictures in my head of what

Maddie looks like and what Iris looks like and the other characters um when you're writing, are you thinking visually? I don't know that I think visually. I think I do think slightly televisually, if that makes sense. So I don't necessarily think what the characters look like. But I think because I worked for a long time on EastEnders early on in my career, and I was the story editor there. And it's so ingrained in you, the big cliffhanger at the end. I am slightly obsessed with cliffhangers. So I'm always thinking about every twist and turn and is the end of the chapter a cliffhanger? So I definitely think in those terms and maybe in a slightly sort of TV film structure, I think. Because the structure, your novel Got You Back, is being made into a musical by the Malmo Opera with music by Roxette.

It is. It's the most randomly exciting thing that's ever happened to me. Completely out of the blue, they approached my agent and said, how would I feel about them basing this Roxette musical on one of my books? It's being written. They're casting at the moment.

It's going to be on at the Malmö Opera House in Sweden next, September of next year, 2024. And then obviously, hopefully, travel around the world after that so yeah it's ridiculously exciting. Summer holidays what do you think about people reading your books on the beach? Oh I love it. I read it in the rain but hey. That's okay read it anyway absolutely as long as they're reading them I don't care where they read them but yeah I love it and I love the idea that if people are on beach holidays sometimes they leave

books for other people to find and yeah I love that too actually I've had loads of great reads actually in that respect what about you what are you reading or what would you plan to read over the summer oh I read a lot of crime actually I tend not to read in my own genre so I read a lot of crime so I've just read the brilliant new Gillian McAllister which comes out next week uh just another missing person incredible and there's a new Lisa Jewell that I actually haven't read yet. And I love her book. So I think that'll be next. One other question. We were looking back on some of the tweets that your partner Ricky Gervais had. He's known for his social media. Just talking on the loneliness aspect, which

I'm going to talk about in a moment. He used to post pictures of you alone, alluding that you had no friends. Is that an ongoing joke? Is it still going? Yeah, yeah, it's still going. That's going to run and run, that one. Yeah, I am quite a... That comes from the fact, I think, he thinks he's being hilarious. But I am quite a... I am quite a loner, actually. I do like spending time on my own, so I'm very happy going for walks on my own. Well, Jane Fallon, thank you so much. Lovely to have you in. Her new book is oversharing, or indeed, if you're in Malmo,

you might want to check out next year, the opera, which will be made of Got You Back. Thanks so much. Thank you. So many of you getting in touch about loneliness. Here's one. I'm desperately lonely. I've spent the last 12 years as a single parent

to children with additional needs. It's isolating at the best of times, but was exasperated by lockdown. The lack of a social life and lack of understanding as to my children's needs means I find it increasingly difficult to socialise. I think I have just lost the conversational skills that I used to have. I think loads of people felt that actually after lockdown, that we had lost that social skills that we had.

Here's another from Katie. I live on my own. I have high anxiety. I can go for weeks without speaking to anyone. I've joined groups and clubs locally, but get very anxious about walking into a group of people and embarrassing myself.

Another one from Stephen. Loneliness has become part of my life now. Having fallen out with many of my perfect married friends during COVID due to principal issues, I find I'm alone and lonely and ruining my failed relationships. I've turned into an inwardly,

profoundly sad person. And one more. I'm in my early 50s. I have a lovely partner, two teenage kids, a busy job, lots of amazing colleagues. I'm surrounded by people,

but I feel so lonely. I've had issues keeping in touch with friends and maintaining friendships as I'm so busy. And now I feel isolated and have lost my confidence to make new friends. It's affecting my mental health severely.

Thanks to all of you getting in touch. I know it's not easy to talk about these things. 84844. They are some of the stories that our listeners are telling us. All this week on the programme, we're going to be looking at loneliness and in particularly loneliness among young women.

Now, you can experience it, of course, at any age, but statistics do tell us that young people are the age group most likely to say they are lonely. Nearly twice as many 16 to 29-year-olds admit to feeling lonely compared to those aged 70 or over. And women of any age are more likely to say they are lonely rather than men. So we're going to look at what loneliness does to your mind and your body and the impact it has on our society. It might surprise you to know it impacts both our economy and also our democracy and we're also going to look at ways to cope with loneliness and how to reach out to someone you worry might be feeling it themselves. Today I'm joined by two women to

tell us about their experiences. Beth McCall is 30 and Rachel Devine is 33. A very warm welcome to both of you. Hi, thanks for having me. Beth, let me start with you. I'm hearing a few of the stories there from listeners, but how did loneliness start for you or when were you able to kind of pinpoint it? So it was earlier this year I was writing. I write a monthly column for Glamour magazine about emotional and mental health

and I usually just dig into things that are going on in my life. And I had a little look kind of in my internal landscape. And what was coming up was loneliness, which at first I found it felt like a sort of bug. And I ignored it for a while. And I thought, well, I've got nothing else. I'll write about this. And so much came up then.

I put it to Twitter and asked, even when I was going through it, and I had these really profound conversations. And it it turned out I had been lonely for a while and I just because nothing had changed in my life all of the kind of material circumstances were the same and I hadn't been lonely I thought but I can't possibly be lonely. And why did you think that that it couldn't be you? Because nothing was different and I thought well I've always been happy being alone I love working by myself I've always been happy being alone. I love working by myself.

I take these trips on my own. I'm really attached to this idea of my own independence. Loneliness almost felt like I would have to really grapple with my own identity if I was lonely. And so I denied it. I thought, this is for other people. And how would you describe that feeling of loneliness? It was sort of like a lens had been slipped down over my vision and it was warping things. And I would go about my life as normal. I would go on these trips alone.

I would be writing at home. And instead of finding this really empowering, I just felt drained. I would go in public and people would seem hostile. And my friends almost, I would feel this yawning distance between us it was it was so bizarre. Rachel let me turn to you I can see you're nodding your head as you listen to Beth. Yeah I mean everything you're saying is kind of things that that I've been feeling you know I kind of feel it in the pit of my tummy a little bit it sort of like sits there under everything that I do and it's like it's weird because I've always

felt like I quite like being on my own and I do um you know I like doing things on my own I go to the cinema on my own a lot I go out for dinner tea if you're northern on my own um but liking being alone is different to being lonely. Solitude is different to loneliness. Really different. And loneliness is, it kind of becomes all consuming, like can take over you a little bit. And it's, I find it for me, it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy because I feel lonely.

So then I find maybe that I isolate myself a little bit. Which I think I'm hearing from our listeners as well. Maybe it's subconsciously or, you know, not realising that I'm doing it. But actually you're sort of lonely and you're desperate for something. But you're sort of isolating yourself at the same time. And it just feels like a never ending cycle for me anyway, you know. You did put it out there, the tweet, I have it here. It says, I want to talk about loneliness.

I think it mostly gets talked about in old people. I'm 33 and loneliness is one of the biggest things I struggle with. It's soul destroying at times. And I just want to normalise that it happens to people at any age. And that's OK. You're not weird. What response did you get? I mean, it was mad. Like I sent it, I think at like 10 o'clock at night

or something like that and just didn't think anything of it and then went to bed and woke up and I was like oh wow okay there's this obviously resonated with a lot of people um and I was really quite shocked but also like I had this weird like feeling of like should I delete it I feel really embarrassed the embarrassment but tell me why were you embarrassed it's just shame I think and stigma I think there's a little bit of me that's like feels really embarrassed that I'm 33 and I'm really lonely because like all I've heard for so long is that like your 20s are the best years of your life your 30s are the best years of your life you're meant to have this amazing time and I'm kind of sitting here not and feeling really lonely and I'm like it makes me just feel a

bit weird is the best way to describe it. Because you're both young women and perhaps that's not the picture that is portrayed of somebody who would be lonely maybe we think about it of somebody who is older or bereaved you know living alone for the first time. Yeah. I think there's that reactionary loneliness which can come with a bereavement, with a big move, with a change in circumstance. And it's when that loneliness endures longer than that, that I think it starts to feel like something shameful because you go,

there was no trigger for this. This is kind of sprung out of me and it must be sort of a defect rather than just a human emotion but it is interesting right that we're seeing it in young women uh more prevalent than in other demographics and you talked about putting out that message and the response that you got that was overwhelming what place do you think beth that social media plays in this, if at all? Because we keep thinking there's all these connections out there, but it doesn't scratch the itch, so to speak. It's an interesting one because I think it feels almost bizarre that we do feel isolated. Don't we all have these worlds in our pocket?

Don't we all have these group chats and these buttons to press and someone's right there? But I think with social media media it's a case of how we use it and if you use social media as a tool of connection if you reach out towards other people and you share vulnerably and you find people that are on your wavelength then it can be a tool of connection but if you use social media and find these angry spaces if you follow people that make you feel really insignificant and really um kind of underwhelming then it's a sort of disconnection I think it really matters at the point of

how you use it what would you say yeah I find social media a bit of a blessing and a curse it can at times make you feel really connected and like for me you know the response to that tweet was like oh my god it's not just me there's other people but equally if I'm feeling really lonely and I say go on my Instagram and everyone looks like they're having a wonderful time or they're all out with friends or you know they're doing all these brilliant things it makes me feel worse and it makes me feel oh my it must be something to do with me like it it must be that people don't want to be around me or that everyone just lives this better life than me. But actually, it's just a snapshot of their lives and actually behind that they could be feeling the exact same thing. Yes, which we're kind of hearing a little from Jane Fallon's new novel as well.

Here's a few messages that have come in and there are many. Also a tremendous response. Fiona, I'm experiencing this horrible feeling for the second time in my life. Again, I have lost my friends while they immerse themselves in the joy of grandchildren. This time the loneliness is laced with so much more.

I've no children of my own, so now the loneliness takes on a completely different face. Fear, fear at the end. Who will care for me or visit me when I'm too old to care for myself? This is the ultimate loneliness. Sounds so selfish, but it is a deep river that i've no idea how to wade through um i'm in my 40s pre-teen children nice job lovely husband but i have no friends it's something that

has happened gradually since i left college but now resulted in many acquaintances but no close friends i found covid great because i it was a social leveller for people like me. But since it ended, it highlighted how different I am from every other woman in their 40s. So you are both in your 30s, but this lady in her 40s is feeling something similar. And it's interesting because all these people are in different situations. Here's another, Nicky. Your caller who said that it caused her to feel lonely when working from home is so right it can be very isolating sometimes i go for to a quiet coffee shop for a couple of hours so that i can be around others is there anything either of you feel has worked to help your loneliness i mean i think it's one it's all

of the things that people will tell it's it's it's opening up communication again but for me it was not making loneliness into a sort of internal monster. It was understanding it, I think, as a laying bare of the best of what humans want, which is connection and to be close and to build together. And so I had to just sit with it and not allow it to become my own enemy, my own sort of internal enemy.

Yeah, I think I'm still going through it and I do therapy every week it's something I talk to my therapist about a lot and we're working on what parts of it is my stuff so the things that are to do with me that I can work on and change that might trigger things that make me feel lonely and then some of it is telling people just actually telling my friends like hey I'm actually like feeling this way and I think it's a daily journey that I'm dealing with and so you have friends but is it enough to be with them or is it something different or people don't have enough time I think it's a mixture of everything I think a I think we're massively missing community everywhere. Like community to me fixes so many things and it's, we need it.

But also it's like all of my friends are busy. We work a lot. We're burned out. We're tired. It's cost of living crisis. Not got any money. Loads of us are in flat shares. It's not even like you've got a space that you can have people come round.

And there's so many things. I've been trying to meet one of my friends and it's taken us two months because it's been that horrible diary clash, sorry, that it's really hard because what I think I want from people most, or friends, sorry, I should say, is just their love and their time. But their time is so precious themselves that it's like they're trying to just keep their own heads above water, like let alone come in and try and help me. So it's partly can be fixed and helped by some people, but ultimately I think it has to have society changes too.

It's so interesting that you bring that up because we will talk during the week about, you know, how economies, but also cities, you know, I think you've just kickstarted this conversation because London, for example, if you buddy one end of the city and you live in the other, you know it can take

an hour and a half to get there. And that kind of feeds into community loneliness, things like that as well. So thank you so much to both of you. Obviously, our listeners are completely responding to you as well. And thank you for opening up and speaking to us here on Women's Hour. I was looking for the opposite to loneliness yesterday on words.

And there's no particular words. Some people were saying happiness, joy, connectedness, but none of them are just right. So I'll throw that out to our listeners as well. What is the opposite of loneliness? But Beth and Rachel, thank you both so much. Thank you. Now, I want to turn back to a little bit of sport.

We started talking about football. Now, let's talk about netball. Yes, not just the Football World Cup. What about the Netball World Cup?

It's taking place in Cape Town. I have a woman on Zoom here and the weather looks a hell of a lot better than it does, I have to say, Zoom here and the weather looks a hell of a lot better than it does I have to say in London at the moment. That person is the BBC's Kate,

Kath Mary. Kath, good to have you back with us. Oh, thank you, Nuala. Yeah, you've actually caught a very rare piece of sunshine this morning because it's been the coldest winter in South Africa and the wettest winter in South Africa for quite a long time. This is actually a lovely sight for us to have here this morning. Well, a lot of people will be coming to this totally fresh, Kat. So it's taking place in Cape Town,

16 teams battling it out. England ranked third, third so often. It was quite something to read that. Scotland and Wales were in there too. I think Scotland, did they lose this morning? All vying for a place, of course, in the final that will take place on Sunday. What's it like out there?

Tell us a little bit what it feels like to be at the Netball World Cup. It's really, really nice because this is the first time that the Netball World Cup has been on African soil. So Cape Town is very excited

to be hosting the Netball World Cup, which comes round every four years. And as you mentioned, Nuna, there's 16 teams. It's 10 days of action. The nations are being represented by England, Scotland and Wales. And you are correct. Scotland did lose just an hour ago to Australia, but they're the top ranked side in the world. They're the 11 time world champions. They're the brick wall of the netballing world. Wales, as I speak to you, Nuala, and our Woman Hour listeners, are losing at the moment to New Zealand.

But again, that's not unexpected because New Zealand are the defending champions. So basically, we are up and running and there's a real vibe here. There's lots of colour. Everybody in Cape Town is really, really excited that the World Cup has come to their shores and they're responding.

And the South African team are good as well. And they're doing pretty well in the rankings at the moment. Which, of course, the South African team are good as well. And they're doing pretty well in the rankings at the moment. Which, of course, they'll have the home advantage as well. But the England head coach, that's Jess Thirlby, she has said the team is hell-bent

on winning the World Cup. I mentioned that, that they've got stuck at third for a while. What are the chances, do you reckon, this time? It's a very good point, Nuala, because they won bronze

in this championship in 2019 when liverpool did a wonderful job of hosting let's not forget the moment they won the commonwealth games in 2018 beating australia in their backyard by one goal but they didn't medal last year at the commonwealth games in birmingham which was a huge disappointment to jess they'll be on the england side england have the capability of winning the world Cup. There's no bones about that. They do have the talent and they have the head coach to do that. But it is a tough, tough ask. But it's the end of Jess Thilby's head coach four-year cycle, as the World Cup goes on four-year cycles. And I think it's very, very important to her and the team to make that happen. And it is a possibility, of course, but Australia, New Zealand, and Jamaica,

the Sunshine Girls, are getting better and better each year. They made the Commonwealth Final last year as well. So it is a very, very tough ask. And I think it's going to come down to crucial decisions made by Jess Philby at the right time to whether we win it or not.

So we've mentioned England, Wales, Scotland, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, and Jamaica. Anyone else we should be watching out for? No, to be honest, Wales, Scotland, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Jamaica. Anyone else we should be watching out for? No, to be honest, Nuala, they're the main teams in the world this year. What happens with netball? It's moved on massively in the last four years, but there's always four or five teams. The gap is getting better. There's four African nations carrying the expectation of a whole continent. And one of them has the possibility to be quite highly ranked.

But now outside of those teams that I've mentioned, it is going to come down to those teams of Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica or England. In my opinion, that's going to win the World Cup. And England have never won it. So this would be a huge deal. And when are they playing next? England are actually playing Tonga tonight. Oh, yeah. five o'clock. We're on BBC Two.

Yes, we are. Yeah, BBC Five Live have covered the first games over the weekend, Nuala. But yeah, BBC Two, five o'clock tonight, England against Tonga. England should win it, but it's going to be a feisty battle because they're very physical, should we say, the Tongan team.

So yeah, England are next up this evening. I did notice that they had two from Oceania, actually Fiji as well, just looking at the picks, the way that they went. What's the crowd like that's there? Because we keep on seeing so much about the Football World Cup

just in our last half, 30 seconds or so. Yeah, it's an interesting crowd. The South Africans are excited and the Southans come to support but a lot of south africans can't afford to come so a lot of south africans are having to watch on television we've spent two days in the townships here before we started our tv coverage today and we're meeting ladies and girls and boys and they're inspired by the world cup here but can't afford the means to travel or come and watch the team but they are supporting the crowds

are good. They're going to get bigger, Nuala. Australian and New Zealand fans don't travel in their masses in the first few days. They don't need to. They know they're going to qualify. So in the next few days,

they're going to come in and it's going to get even louder. But some of the African nations bring the colour and the vibe. It's an amazing atmosphere. I know we have so many listeners that play netball and love netball. We've done call-outs on that today.

So to give them the full details, Netball World Cup running until Sunday on BBC TV, BBC iPlayer. Listen to the commentary on BBC Five Live, Five Sports Extra as well and BBC Sounds. And it's on, of course, the website and the app as well. Kath Mary, you've got me excited about it. Thank you so much for joining us from sunny Cape Town, as it is at the moment.

Do join us tomorrow. We'll continue our series on loneliness. We will be speaking to Dr Farhana Mann, a psychiatrist, about what loneliness really is and how it impacts our bodies and minds. Thank you for all your comments on the topic today. One who got in touch says, the opposite to loneliness is belonging.

Another says the opposite of loneliness is togetherness. Keep them coming. I'll talk to you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Have you suffered from a horrible trauma? Is it affecting your day-to-day life? If you suffer from PTSD, you can try our new pill, Reset. From BBC Radio 4. You are the ten individuals taking part in the Phase 1 trial of our new drug. It doesn't cure PTSD, quite the opposite. What was that? It's okay, Mary. What happened?

You're in the lab. Where's Carl? Carl? He's in the lab. Where's Carl? Carl? He's in the hospital. Available on BBC Science. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.