Woman's Hour - Author Liane Moriarty, Grooming gangs, Hip pads

Episode Date: September 22, 2026

Author Liane Moriarty’s bestselling novel Big Little Lies followed the lives of a group of women in the affluent Sydney suburbs, exploring some dark themes beneath the suburban façade. It was made into a popular TV drama starring Reese Witherspoon, Nicole Kidman and Zoë Kravitz. Now Liane has written a sequel, Big Little Truths, which rejoins the women 10 years later. She talks to presenter Nuala McGovern about reimagining her characters in midlife and grappling with the challenges of parenting teens. For years, organised gangs of abusers, mostly of Pakistani heritage, preyed on young girls in Oxford while it's claimed the authorities looked the other way. BBC’s Panorama examines the devastating legacy of this neglect for three survivors, revealing the extent of the abuse they suffered, the enduring impact it has had on their lives and the questions they still have. Producer and director Leanne Hayman tells us about the film.Are girls and boys born looking at the world in different ways? Yumnah Khan is a Doctoral Scientist at The University of Cambridge's Autism Research Centre and she's been investigating sex differences in babies' brain structure and cognition. Previous research has shown that girls, on average, learn to talk earlier and develop social skills faster than boys. This new study suggests that some differences in development may begin before birth, shaped by prenatal biology as well as later life experiences. So what should parents take from these findings? And how much do they actually tell us about the early experiences of girls and boys? Has your body ever surprised you? Perhaps you overcame a difficult health challenge, started a new sport, or maybe you just noticed some of the incredible everyday things our bodies do for us? Listeners have been telling us the different ways their bodies have surprised them. First, we hear from Gail, a nurse who decided to donate a kidney to someone in need. From chicken fillets to padded ‘bum shorts’ and even stick on nipples, women are constantly being marketed products which promise to change how we look. The latest to hit the high street are hip-padding bodysuits, which users say can minimise ‘hip dips’ to create a Kim Kardashian-style silhouette. Susie Orbach, a psychotherapist, psychoanalyst and the author of books including Bodies and Fat Is a Feminist Issue, joins Nuala to discuss the trend along with Ali Bodley, a heritage specialist who has curated exhibitions looking at women's fashion through the ages. Presented by: Nuala McGovern Produced by: Sarah Jane Griffiths

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Growing businesses deal with the same problem. Too many tools, too much back and forth and not enough time. Odu helps bring it all together. It's an all-in-one business management platform, fully integrated from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, so your team can spend less time chasing information and focus on growth. Whether you're in retail, manufacturing or service,

Odu gives you one place to manage your business. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com. Why does the world want American surrogates? I'm Asma Khalid, and I host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. Paying someone to carry a pregnancy is banned in most of Europe, and large parts of Asia as well. But here in the U.S., business is booming.

Though, as the popularity has grown, so too has the public debate around the ethics of it all. For more, listen to The Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Newell O'Moghwin, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed, hello and welcome to the program. Well, coming up this morning, the author Leanne Moriarty. Yes, you'll know her from Big Little Lies, the book that became a Blockbuster TV series starring Hollywood superstars with women at the heart of the story.

Well, now the sequel is here. Big little truths. Everyone is a decade older. And so it gets into what has been called the tender agony of trying to parent teenagers. So this morning, we want to take a little of the sting out of that agony by sharing with your fellow listeners the lengths, some might say desperate measures,

you have gone to to reconnect with your teen. I am particularly interested in how, you've tried to bridge the gap when it comes to your teenage girl who may find you cringe. Sorry. What did you do? Bribing in whatever form that might have taken? Turning off the Wi-Fi,

delving deep into K-pop, learning what teenage slang means. Don't tell me or do tell me if you did actually try and use it. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. for a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 0,300, 100444.

Or on most smart speakers, you can say Alexa, ask BBC Sound sounds to send a message, and they will. Also this hour, what are the causes behind sex differences and how early in life are they present? Well, that's a question one of my guests this hour is trying to answer. They've just released a study showing some differences between newborn boys and girls, even when they're just a day old. Also, we'll hear from a woman who donated her kidney to a stranger, incredible. Plus, the latest episode, in a tale as old as time. Cosmetic body shaping through clothing. It's the latest fad to hit the high street, which is hip padding, to give you an hourglass shape. We'll have the psychotherapist, Susie Orbach, with us. Also

historian Ali Bodley. So fascinating insights to come on the fickle nature of what body shape is in fashion. Also, we'll hear the stories of survivors of an Oxford grooming gang who say they still see men who sexually abuse them and who have not been brought to justice walking around their city. So that is all coming up this hour. But let me begin with my next guest, my first guest, Leanne Moriarty. Her novel, Big Little Lies, as I mentioned, you will remember, I'm sure. It was set in an affluent suburb of Sydney. in the original book.

It followed a group of women who bonded when their young children were in the same primary school class and explored psychologically dark themes of bullying and domestic violence. Well then, as you might know, big little lies became a New York Times bestseller. It was made into a glossy HBO drama

that moved the action from Australia to California. The cast, Rees Witherspoon, Nicole Kidman, Laura Dern, Zoe Kravitz, to name just a few. Well then Learn returned to the original characters. It is 10 years later. It is the sequel, Big Little Truths. And the children are now teenagers. The women are grappling with the pressures of midlife,

which could mean dealing with ageing parents alongside parenting. Learne, you're so welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you so much. Good to have you with us. So this, I believe, is your first ever sequel. It is my first ever sequel. I actually always said I would never. write a sequel to any of my books because I always felt like I'd left my characters in a

good place. So why this time? Well, there was a lot of dithering over the years. Part of it was the interest in the show, so Hollywood was asking the question. And I can remember actually saying to Rees Witherspoon, I'm very sorry, I'm not going to be like the Game of Thrones guy. I just want to stop there. I'd say there's not that many people that could say they've said no to Reese Witherspoon. In recent years, I know she's talked about the hustle and the graft trying to get things off the grounds originally, but she's so successful now. She is. Well, it was actually, it was an easy no back then.

And perhaps I should have said yes, but I had other novels that I wanted to write. But then over the years, I did start to think, well, maybe it would be interesting to see what happens with these characters when they're children, teenagers. So I started to talk about that. And actually, I was writing a completely different novel set in a high school. And then there was another one of those sort of surges of interest in a new series of Big Little Lies. and that's when it occurred to me that I could put that high school plot into my big little lies world

and that's when I suddenly said, okay, I will do it. Okay, we're all delighted, not just reason with this film. But, you know, we hear this term, this sandwich generation, for example, those twin pressures, I suppose, of teenagers, aging parents

and perhaps menopause thrown in for good measure as well. It must be a rich, time, I suppose, to explore. There's so much going on. Exactly. So I wrote the first book when my own children were little, and now my children are teenagers, and I'm about to turn 60 in a few months' time. So this was one of those books where no research was required. So it was wonderful, actually, as a way of of just exploring all the issues. Obviously, I'm not going through every single thing

that I put all my characters through in this book, but everything that my friends and I are all talking about and dealing with. And of course, some drama and plots that did not happen, I imagine, in real life, but I'm leaving that for the reader. You're going to read a little bit for us. Sure, yes, yes. This brings us, I suppose, really into that mother-daughter relationship that I was mentioning at the top of the program.

Yes. So this is Madeline, the character of Madeline, and she's trying to relate to her 16-year-old daughter at the time. Once, when Chloe was in a chatty mood, she showed Madeline the TikTok account of a girl who was in the same year as her, who had over 30,000 followers, although that isn't actually so amazing a number, Mum. Madeline often gasped in the wrong places when Chloe told a story.

30,000, Madeline had patted herself on the back when the hotel's Instagram account, events by the sea, had reached 1,000. Madeline didn't really understand why this girl had so many followers. To her, the TikToks looked identical to the ones Chloe and her friends did, the dancing in bedrooms, the hair flicking, the makeup, the fashion, the transitions when they were getting ready to go out, the halls when they laid out gifts or purchases

and held them up to the camera. But wait, her account isn't private, checked Madeline. Should she tell the girl's mother? No, mum, but that's not the point. That's not a big deal. But your account is, Chloe rolled her eyes and sighed heavily, and Madeline made herself stop talking because at any moment the laptop could be slammed shut

and the tenuous line of communication between mother and daughter disconnected. It's so precarious. It is. It's a precarious time. And it can turn on a dime or in an instant. I was kind of fascinated reading it. A couple of things,

which I think that reading illustrates as well. Like we talk about 10 years on instead of a 40th birthday party, a 50th birthday party, is kind of at the beginning, a central event. It's a different world, 10 years on with technology

when it comes to the relationship between parents and teens as you write about so eloquently there and what's a big deal for a mother can be seen very differently by a daughter? Exactly. And we often

well not every parent I know some parents who are right on on the understanding the technology but a lot of the time we don't understand the new technologies that they're dealing with or we think we do, but we don't understand the nuances of their world. I think also from that passage you read,

how safe they are is viewed very differently by the parent or the child. And I find that with my children who have grown up in a digital world and often they understand things in a completely different way. So, for example, if I'm upset by comments, by mean comments, they will say, that's, no, mum, that's not, that's not the way the world works. You don't take those sort of comments seriously. Yeah, and I think you take the teenagers seriously in this book that they are fully rounded characters.

There is, I suppose, a thread of cruelty that women can experience from their teenage daughter. sometimes the patronising tone, for example, who seem to think their mum's, if not idiots, are totally cringe. So the dialogue is very funny. There's cracking one-liners, but there is that pain that can also come through. And some parents who found the early years, so I have one character, Bonnie,

who has found parenting just a joy the whole way through and the teenage years for her, she just can't believe. And I have heard women say that to me, but, you know, my daughter was my best friend, and they can't believe how things have changed. And I feel that myself, I knew what was coming, but I think subconsciously you maybe think, oh, no, but I'm different. She won't be contemptuous towards me. It's so interesting because I think it happens at the same time

as we're talking about this sandwich generation, that maybe the mother is going through lots of physical and emotional changes herself. I mean, there's hormones on both sides of that paradigm. You also underline, I feel, particularly perhaps with Madeline, the sheer amount of maintenance that life demands. That could be H.R.T. Trying to get your leafy vegetables.

She has a beach boot camp exercise class, which kind of shows, I think, the vulnerability and the loss perhaps of the invincibility or the confidence of youth? Yes, exactly. And at the time that you're seeing your beautiful teenage daughters, and as you say, it's somehow a design flaw that our hormones are going crazy at the same time as theirs. And we all know so much more about what we're meant to do to keep on top of our health issues. so we're all doing the weight-bearing exercises

and eating more protein and trying to do all the right things and at the same time people are getting serious diagnoses either ourselves or around us so they call that time between 45 and 60 snipers alley because that's the time you're most likely to get something serious

so I was actually leaning into the shelf to get it was listening to your book as well as reading it I kind of flip between the two often on this program. And I was leaning in to get some protein powder. I was listening to Tins at passage. And I'm like, oh my goodness, she has it nailed. She's watching me. Let's talk about Renata.

That is the character played by Laura Dern who's been on this program, who is such an interesting woman. She was on with her mother, actually, who is now sadly past Diane Ladd. Fantastic. You can go back and listen to it on BBC Sounds. It was a wonderful interview, both of them. but her character, your character that you've created for Renata,

liberated, uncompromising and doesn't take any nonsense. And I suppose the question is, how can we all be a little bit more Renata? A little bit more Renata. I don't know. I'd like to be a little more Renata myself. And I have to admit that it was because of Laura, because she played that character so magnificently. And Renata actually only had a small sort of comic role.

in the first book, but I knew anybody who had seen the show would not forgive me if I didn't give her a bigger role in this book. But yes, I have no idea how to get more Renata. But you do have an idea on how to do certain things, Learme, because I was reading how you basically were talking about these powerhouses of actors, be it Nicole Kidman or Laura Dern or, you know, going through. You manifested Meryl Street, basically, for series two. I did. You're right.

that was a little Renata-like, wasn't it? Tell us that story. I was writing a, it was meant to be a treatment for season two, but I didn't know how to write a treatment, so I just wrote 50,000 words. Just. Yes. And I had thought, well, actually it was my sister,

because she said to me, only do it if you think it would be fun, and why not write a role for your favourite actress? So I thought I'm going to find out Merrill Streep's middle name, and I will call this character by her middle name. And that's when I found out that Merrill's actual given name is Mary Louise. That was new to me. Yes.

And that Mary Louise worked perfectly for this character that I was creating. So I then got on the phone to the producers and not quite believing my own audacity because I'm not really like Renata. I said I've written a role for Merrill Streep. and they were laughing at me and saying, oh, you've become so Hollywood, Leanne, calling us up saying, get me, Merrill. And then a few months later, I got a text saying,

we got you Merrill. How did that feel? It felt amazing. It really was a career highlight. And then to see her, there was a particular scene that I wrote where she screams at the dinner table and to actually see that happen. on the screen was extraordinary.

In all her greatness. But now Mary Louise is a fixture. Yes, well, she's back. So I don't know if I would have done the same if they had created that character and I had nothing to do with it. But because I created her, I felt she belonged to me.

So Mary Louise is in this sequel. Yes, and everybody very happy. to hear about that as well. You mentioned your sister there. And we do speak about siblings a lot, particularly sisters on. I've actually had both my sisters on with me. Oh my God, the most terrifying interviews. I think I've ever conducted.

But you do not know what they're going to say. You said you wrote your first book in a fever of sibling rivalry when your sister became a published author. I don't know if that's the same sister you're referring to who told you if it's fun. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And the rivalry left, it seems like she's a good sounding board.

She's wonderful, yes. So I'm the eldest of six. I've got four sisters and three of us authors. But when I was little, myself and Jackie, who's got a wonderful new book out now called Time Travel for Beginners, which is fantastic. But we both wanted to be writers when we were little, and our dad used to commission us to write stories for him.

he gave us our first publishing deal. Do you know what? I was just talking about, you know, did you bribe to connect with your child, your teenager or whatever, but he gave you, what was it, $1.50? A dollar, yes. But you know what? It's funny when people talk about bribing, because to me that didn't feel like bribing. And I bribe my children for sure.

He was just more taking it seriously. He loved the idea of find something that you love to do and get somebody to pay you to do it. I mean, I love this. he was a feminist in the sense of telling you, if you're going to do the work, you should be getting paid for it. Exactly. And I felt, oh, I'm not doing this to please him. This is an actual job.

It was very validating. How wonderful. I'm going to read you a dad's story as well that has just come in. I'm a dad. I'm quite close to my 17-year-old. I hope I've learned from how I was parented. I try to think with her rather than tell her what to do. I invite her to do things with me and don't get offended when she says no.

And if she asks me to watch something or read something she enjoys, I make sure to find the time to do it. I hate traitors and that Channel 4 on the run show, but I watch them all with her. It means we've something trivial to talk about together. Probably not trivial to her. And yes, she constantly mocks me for getting the lingo wrong. That's fantastic.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And I especially love that he says he doesn't get offended when she says, no, he just keeps asking. I think that's perfect. When can we see everybody back on screen? I believe they should start shooting next year. So I guess that might mean, to be honest, I don't actually know, but perhaps later next year or the year after.

But the great news is, in the meantime, you can read a big little truth, which is out right now. Leanne Moriarty sold 25 million books, I think, was the last figure I read. wonderful to have you in. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much. Another message. Trying to connect with my teenage daughter has involved enduring – enduring – enduring trips to Alton Towers, ghost tours in Edinburgh and visiting what feels like every anime shop in the Northern Hemisphere. But when it came to going to a Metallica concert with her, I finally threw the line. I drew the line. Even a mother has to

have limits. Parenting a teenager is a strange business. One miniature their entire world, the next year an embarrassing woman who apparently knows nothing, but I'll keep showing up, so says Lisa. Good advice there. Keep them coming. Oh, I can see lots of messages coming in. 844-4-844 if you'd like to get in touch. We're taking the sting out of the tender agony of parenting this morning.

Now, last night, BBC Panorama talked to survivors off a grooming gang in Oxford who told the programme they were sexually abused by hundreds of men that are, Many are still walking free in the city. I do need to let you know. This is a difficult story, a distressing story. We have heard some of these issues previously on Women's Hour, but this one specifically in Oxford. In the program, Panorama,

a former detective who led the investigation into the gang, who were mainly of Pakistani heritage, also believed child sexual exploitation is still taking place. Well, I'm joined in the studio now by Leanne Hayman. She's the film's director, who has been following this story and brings us some of the details of what they found. What did you find, Leanne, for those that haven't read about it yet?

Yeah. Well, we spoke with quite a number of survivors of this gang that were operating in Oxford through the late 1990s into the 2000s, and they were sexually exploiting young, vulnerable girls during that period. Three women in particular that we spoke to have taken part in our program and told us that they were abused by that gang in different time periods. And though there were some convictions, they told us there were actually many, many more men that took part in that abuse that were never brought to justice.

And in fact, they say hundreds of people took part in that abuse. And some they see even just sort of going about their daily lives in Oxford today. You spoke to one woman who were calling Sarah. And she says she was sexually abused. by the gang and plied with heroin from the age of 11. More than two decades later, three men were found guilty of abusing her after she testified against them in court

as part of a police investigation into the abuse. They were jailed for between five and 24 years. That was in 2020. To date, 21 men, as your story has told, have been convicted. But let's hear a little bit more from Sarah who told us. are many more who hadn't faced justice. If you were to have a guess of a number

of how many people you came across in that time. Oh, 100, maybe more. Not all the people have been grabbed. They are sort of like everywhere. So every sort of public place, a shop, a petrol station, a restaurant, everywhere you can imagine,

you'll see a man that has done something. I mean this testimony, Leanne, is very shocking of what we're hearing from the woman that we're calling Sarah there. Oxford in particular, tell me a little bit more about what was found. Yeah, I mean, there was a serious case review in 2015 that found that as many as 370 young people, young girls who could have been affected by this gang during that time. They were an organised group, as you say, mostly of Pakistani heritage, who sexually exploited these girls, and there were many missed opportunities by the authorities to intervene. Some of the survivors even told us that the police and social services would see them as being at fault for what was happening to them. We spoke with the former detective who did grasp what was going on and took action against the gang, and in 2011 began Operation Bullfinch,

which was the sort of first investigation that exposed the gang. And he also told us a bit about that and how difficult it was to get those convictions. And, you know, he sort of says it's one thing thinking it, it's another thing, proving it. So he kind of illustrated just how hard it can be to get convictions in this area. But he also did talk about how there were men that weren't brought to justice as well. Because Oxford really, I suppose, has avoided the notoriety of some other places where grooming gangs have operated. We've spoken about it on this program, Rotherham, Ratchford Telford. Let's hear a little off the former acting detective chief inspector Simon Morton.

talking about why he believes some offenders may still be active. It's crazy. It's just ridiculous the amount of people that were involved. It was so many people coming from other places. It was countrywide. Is this still going on in Oxford? Yeah, absolutely. We got the core group.

That doesn't mean there isn't more. Simon Morton there. So a new National Inquiry, to grooming gangs is now under Whaleyank. What can you tell us about it? Yeah, I mean, there have been local reviews when these crimes are exposed around the country that look at what went wrong in the response and how the grooming happened. The national inquiry is looking at that on a national level, of course. It's working with victims and survivors. And it's asking why institutions tasked with protecting them when they were children failed so badly. It has

the ability to compel people to give evidence. So it's going to be holding public accountability hearings and it says it will hold organisations and individuals to account for the failures. Yeah, and of course very much when I watch the film that's what a lot of the women are looking for some of the perpetrators that carry this out but also that larger infrastructure, be it police, social services that they feel were at fault.

Can you explain a little bit more about how this grooming happens? How perpetrators, for example, gain the trust of their victims. And again, I will reiterate, if you're affected by any of these issues that we're discussing and they are distressing, the BBC Action Line is the place to go to. There are links to help and support. Yeah, I mean, I can talk about the experiences of the three women that we met. They all had quite common experience, actually, which is sort of pattern of behaviour

where they were befriended, you know, the men gained their trust. They were very young as well. so the men would buy them little things, you know, a fizzy drink or something like that. And just then after a while that turned into, well, you owe us something now. So they sort of had them in their debt at that point. And it kind of follows what's known as the boyfriend model, I suppose, is when Chloe, one of the women in our program, describes, you know, the men that she was groomed by were not some of the much older men

that she went on to describe as people she would have had nothing to do with. They were adults, but they were, you know, young in the same. their 20s, good looking, they were friendly, and they gained their trust, and they befriended them and then used that, positioned themselves as a sort of boyfriend, I suppose, and then used that position to then exploit the girls over years of terrible abuse. And when they were very young, now there's one woman who's called Rachel in the film, not her real name, she said officers accused her of prostituting herself, the words they use, despite only being 13 years of age.

Is it possible to tell how attitudes, police attitudes, the language officers use has changed since this abuse took place? This was in the late 90s, early 2000s. Yeah, I mean, that language is something that many of the women have talked about as having a really long-lasting impact on them. That term was in official legislation until 2015 or something. So many women would have had that experience. But I think what Rachel was really talking about there is about the attitude towards them from the authorities.

One of the failures found in the serious case review in 2015 that looked at what went wrong in Oxford during that time highlighted an issue being that oftentimes the authorities kind of viewed these girls as the source of their own problems. And so what she's describing there is really a kind of a mode of them operating with these girls as though they were really kind of. making bad choices. That they had autonomy, I think, is what came across from the testimony that the girls gave. It felt as if they were being held responsible. Yeah, I mean, the police did accept the findings of that review, and they say that they implemented changes as a result of that. But yeah, that is something that has really had a massively long-lasting impact on the women that we've spoken to.

Tell me about the process of making this program. Well, it took a long time. It's a seven-month investigation-ish. I mean, it's building a lot of trust. These people have good reason not to trust people. So it's reaching out and building, making a lot of relationships with people. As I mentioned before, there is a lot more victims were identified than ever went through the court process that was estimated in 2015 that over 370 girls had been affected by this issue. So we spoke with more women than we, you know, we feature the testimony of three.

amazing brave women in the film but we spoke with many more than that and um it was a long process it's extremely difficult for them to talk about it of course even to this day and i just think i just want to say that the women are remarkable really i think people have a concept of of what the grooming gangs are and how that might be but when you are face to face and hearing the stories through um of some of these people and how um you know what they've been through and what they live with now it is very visceral, it's very shocking. And there's a real sort of cohort, a whole generation in Oxford of women

that are living with that. So it was, yeah. And I think it's important to know as well how the abuse they suffered impacted them and their lives. Yeah, they all have, you know, their unique experiences. They, they, obviously Sarah, one of the women in our film,

talks about one of the impacts being, She was plied with heroin from a very young age. And so she has lived with the long-term consequences of drug addiction, being in the criminal justice system as a result. Many women suffer, you know, mental health impacts throughout their life, physical impacts throughout their life. But there are also small sort of daily sort of things that people might not know about as well. You know, finding it hard to hold down a job because of the trauma that they've been through,

having to move cities, move houses, use different names, the kind of impact on the practicality of their life and all the people around them as well is something that's really noteworthy. Actually, let me bring a little of Chloe again who told you that becoming a mum brought what happened to her into a new focus. When I became a mum, I find that really hard just because it just made me realise

how sick what they did was. And it really brought it all up again. And I really panic about, like, the future and how I can keep her life, you know, safe and stuff. It really just stay with you forever. I do think, like, I'll probably be 80 years old one day thinking about this. Chloe there. And it is important to hear their voices and that impact that's going on. And I think what really struck me, Leanne, is that as they go about their business,

their daily lives, they can potentially see some of the men that they say abuse them. Yeah, they can. They describe that to us. Supermarket, petrol station, feeling sick, cold when they see them. These are men that they might not know their names, but they know their faces. You know, they're very memorable to them. So, yeah, they describe that. And it is really shocking, I think, to put yourself in their shoes. Because as Chloe says in the film, it's where she lives.

It's where she grew up. she doesn't want to leave where she's from, but it's at the cost of potentially running into these guys. Yeah, and we also hear how difficult it is in a day-to-day to get a job to have some of those secure aspects, even to be able to move, I'm sure, would be something also not without huge challenges. Leanne, thank you so much. I want to let people know you can watch BBC Panorama's grooming gangs.

Why were we ignored on IPlayer Now? if you have been a victim of sexual abuse or violence, details of help and support are all available at the BBC's action line. Thames Valley Police have said the impact of child sexual exploitation is lifelong and it works tirelessly to investigate these horrific crimes and bring offenders to justice. It also says it's never too late to come forward and that it will listen and do everything it can

to support victims, survivors and their families. To Oxfordshire County Council who say protecting children remains its highest priority. It says it has accepted the findings of a serious case review and apologised for past failings. It says it's strengthened safeguarding, improved multi-agency working, enhanced responses to child sexual exploitation as well. If you want to get in touch, 8444 is one way to do it. Thanks for your messages that are coming in. Here's one.

Let me see. I connected with my teenage and early 20s daughters by downloading Snapchat and. and other apps, watching TV programs I hated, listening to her music with her, and constantly keeping in touch with short messages. I didn't try and use her slang, though. 844, if you want to get in touch. Mark Twain summed it up, says another,

about the experience of being parents of teenagers. When I was 14, my parents knew absolutely nothing. It was amazing how much they had learned by the time I was 21. Thanks, David, who got in touch with that one. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing.

Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com. Why does the world want American surrogates? I'm Asma Khalid and I host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. paying someone to carry a pregnancy is banned in most of Europe and large parts of Asia as well. But here in the US, business is booming, though as the popularity has grown, so too has the public debate around the ethics of it all.

For more, listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Right, let us move on to the question. Are girls and boys born looking at the world in a different way? previous research has shown that girls on average learn to talk earlier and develop social skills faster than boys well a study published today suggests that there are not only average sex differences in the brain

but also in attention and behaviour from the very start of life let us learn more what can they tell us about the early experiences of girls and boys let me bring in Yomna Khan doctoral scientist at the University of Cambridge's Autism Research Centre she's been investigating sex differences

in baby's brain structure and cognitive and joins me now. Good morning. Good to have you with us. Good morning. So I read about your experiment this morning. Fascinating. We're talking about newborns here, maybe just a day or so old. Tell me what you did and what you found. So yes, they were newborns. We recruited them from the hospital as soon after birth as they were born. We tried to test them. Everything was in the hospital. What we essentially did is We recruited these newborn babies, and once they were awake and alert, we showed them a video clip. The video clip was a video of a face and a video of a moving object presented side by side. So we showed this video to the newborn babies.

And what we found, firstly, was that overall, regardless of sex, all newborn babies preferred to look at the human face. This is something that's also been found before, and it's thought to have evolutionary roots to orient infants towards humans to facilitate social development. But what are really interesting finding here was that female newborns looked at the face proportionately longer than males. And male infants, on the other hand, looked at the object for proportionately longer than female infants, which might suggest, that even at the very, very beginning of life, females show a greater interest on average in humans and in social objects. Okay, the might we can get into.

The object was Newton's cradle, that desk toy that demonstrates the laws of physics by that row of swinging metal spheres that kind of swing back and forth on those little metal strings. But I was wondering, like a new baby, about 32 hours old. I didn't even think their comprehension would be that significant.

Yes, it absolutely is. We have lots of research in the past that's shown that newborn infants, if you show them a face and anything else, they will always prefer to look at the face, meaning that they are sort of comprehending that what they're seeing is a face. Now, their vision isn't super clear, you do have to show them things very up close, but they can definitely process a face

and distinguish it from other types of objects. So I'll come back to the word might that it might show this difference. I mean, is there, as you see it, implications for the nature versus nurture debate, which we talk about all the time, particularly on women's era where we're looking for equality between the sexes

and so many things are often put down to nature or nurture. Yes, absolutely. So what I always say is that it's nature and nurture. It's not nature versus nurture. And the sex differences that we do see are in large part shaped by nurture, by upbringing, gender socialization. All of these factors play an incredibly important role in shaping sex differences. Now, going back to the nature question, there have been hypotheses that early biological factors might play some sort of a role in shaping sex differences in the brain and behavior. So during pregnancy, male fetuses are exposed to higher levels of testosterone compared to female fetuses. And that's what creates sex differences in the body. But scientists have hypothesized

that this might also create sex differences in the brain and behavior. So some of my earlier research has shown sex differences in prenatal brain growth. And this research, because it was so soon after birth while the babies were still in the hospital and they haven't been exposed to the environment as much, what it might suggest is that maybe these early biological factors are playing some sort of a role in driving these sex differences. But of course, we need more research

to actually directly link these factors to the difference that we see to better address this question. You know, I mentioned that you are a doctoral scientist at the University of Cambridge's Autism Research Centre. Why, as a research with that discipline, are you so interested in this specific area? So autism is more common in males than females. And not just autism, actually,

you see this across different psychiatric conditions. depression and anxiety, for example, are more common in females. The hypothesis here is that there are some sort of differences in male and female development that lead to males becoming more likely to developing certain conditions and females becoming more likely to developing others. So for example, what we see here, if it is indeed the case that on average, males show a slightly lower social interest than females. You can see how that might go on to develop sort of reduced social interest, reduced communication, social interaction, which might make them more likely to developing autism. Now, of course, at this stage, this is a hypothesis. We haven't yet followed up with these infants.

We are doing that at the moment. But the plan is to look at in future studies, whether these early sex differences, can they actually explain why conditions such as autism show sex differences in their prevalence? Really interesting. We have done a lot on that as well on this program. And we sometimes talk about the diagnosis, perhaps given to a boy, perhaps quicker than a girl,

maybe girls being able to mask better within social situations. But fascinating. We shall continue watching Euma Khan what happens next to those babies. As I mentioned, Inductoral scientists at the University of Cambridge. Really interesting her research this morning. Now, I mean doing the minds, the eyes, let us turn to the body.

Has your body ever surprised you? Maybe you overcame a difficult health challenge, started a new sport, or maybe you just noticed some of the incredible everyday things our bodies do for us. Well, some of our listeners have been telling us the different ways their bodies have surprised them and we are sharing those stories on air. First, we are going to hear from Gail. She's a nurse who has been in her profession since the 80s. Many of us have thought about organ donation at one point or another.

Maybe you even carry that card in your wallet. But what is it actually like to donate a part of your body to someone in need? I got into rock climbing in my 20s, joined the army as a nurse. And at that time, I was very conscious of the fact that if I died by the time I was 40, I didn't really care because I'd had such a nice life. But then, of course, by the time I did actually get to 40, I'd had my third child and realized actually it's quite the opposite. I want to live as long as possible and possibly up to the age of 120 because I had children at such an old age. And then when I got, yeah, when I got to 60, I suppose, I'd really thought, why die with two good kidneys when you could die with one?

So I had to jump through quite a few hoops, including quite early on an hour with a psychiatrist to make sure that you're not completely losing. P, that you're doing it for the right reasons. Because obviously, as probably slightly eccentric, as some people might think the whole idea of donating a kidney is, I think there might be some people doing it for the wrong reasons. So they do make sure right from the outset that you're doing it for the right reasons and that you're not totally insane, although my boss did call me mad. And once you've done that, then you have to have obviously all the scans, the blood tests, and actually make sure that you have two kidneys because some people are born with one and just don't know it.

Obviously, I had to be infection-free and fit and well, as did the recipient. And neither of us got COVID because you have to have COVID tests and everything. So we, yeah, it all, as far as I know, went swimmingly. I donated my kidney. He received my kidney. And the only news I've had from my recipient was that he was having to go into hospital four times a week for dialysis. and now no longer needs to. And this sounds a bit selfish, but it's quite a lot of effort to go through.

And if, you know, because I did say to the surgeon, have you ever dropped a kidney? And he laughed and said, no, he has never dropped a kidney. They take really good care of it. The recipient's team are on standby to receive it. They then have to make sure that obviously it's the right size. I had my right kidney removed because that suited the recipient better to have a right kidney than a left. So ideally it should get to the recipient within three hours of it leaving me. There's a very small risk of dying, probably about similar to a plane crashing, that kind of statistical risk.

There's a risk of infection or bleeding and all of that sort of thing. Well, luckily, I had no side effects. It's quite a big step. I wouldn't have done it if I hadn't had the full support of my family. So it obviously doesn't suit everybody. not everybody could donate a kidney, not everybody would want to. But for me, I was surprised how good and how easy it was and how quickly I recovered. Being on the receiving end of NHS care, when you've been a nurse for most of your life,

is actually quite interesting. When you think I had it on the Friday morning, I was out of bed the next day in the Saturday with my five incisions, obviously quite painful and a bit weak and wobbly, but in all respects, capable of eating, drinking. My catheter came out first thing Saturday morning, and then by Sunday afternoon I'd been given the all-clear, and once that was there, my husband took me home. I was wheeled through the hospital and then got into the car,

but actually I felt well enough to walk. When people talk to me now and say, how are you feeling, well, it's almost a bit like a dream, like it's never happened, because I don't feel any different. my transplant nurse summed it up quite well. She said, before I had my operation, she said, you'll go into hospital feeling top-notch, you know, feeling absolutely fine. Your recipient will go into hospital feeling ill and dreadful, desperately fatigued and tired and unwell. And then I'll come out of hospital feeling a little bit ill and unwell and in pain and probably

desperately tired, but your recipient obviously stays in hospital longer, but, you know, they will come out of hospital feeling comparatively well and energized because they've now got a fully functioning kidney. And that was quite a marvelous thing to get your head around. And then within weeks or months, I should imagine closer to six weeks, I was feeling as well as I had still a little bit sore, still with the scabs on, on my little wounds and things, but, you know, almost back to normal. I think part of the reason for wanting to do this in the first place was to just show women like me who have been blessed with good health and energy all their lives, who perhaps aren't too risk averse, and who perhaps, you know, want to do something for charity

or who want to give something back to their community or to the world in general, you know, it's not going to suit everybody, but for those people who think it might be for them, you know, I think the message needs to get out there that you can have a full and great life after a kidney donation. You can live just as long and just as well with one as you can with two. How fascinating Gail and her kidney donation

we're going to be hearing from other listeners and how their bodies have surprised them later in the week. Our bodies are incredible, aren't they? But sometimes we are still nudged towards altering our body through some means or another. Let me list a few things. Control pants, chicken fillets, you know, that padding. Padded bum pants.

There were those as well. Everything seems to have a season. Well, the latest to hit the high street are hip pads after Marks and Spencer's joined the list of retailers to launch body suits featuring hip padding, which helps to create an exaggerated hourglass figure celebrated by the likes of Kim Kardashian. Well, to discuss this,

and the fickle nature of what body shape is in fashion, I put that in inverted commas, I'm joined by Susie Orbach, the renowned psychotherapist, psychoanalyst, and author of books, including bodies, and fat is a feminist issue. Good morning, Susie.

Good morning. Lovely to have you in studio, lovely to meet you. And Ali Bodley, a heritage specialist who has curated exhibitions looking at women's fashion through the ages. You're very welcome to Women's Hour as well, Ali. Thank you.

Now, first off, Susie, your reaction to what I've said, hearing that M&S and other companies are now selling hip-padding bodyware. I think I was disappointed. I do realise that M&S is making a huge splash in the fashion world at the moment, But I guess I was, I feel this is so much hurt that is coming in on our youngsters and on women of all ages that on the one hand we're supposed to have the Munjaro body and on the other hand we're supposed to have the Kim Kardashian body.

And it's not like this is a specialist thing. This is infiltrating all sorts of young people at a moment when particularly for girls, their reproductive rights and women's rights are being taken away. Not here, thank God, but elsewhere. So I worry about the construction of a body that is so manufactured as the way that we try to belong in society. This was something I was not aware of before. Some users of this bodyware claim that it helps to reduce hip dips, a phrase used to describe the natural inward curves between the hip bone and the thigh bone, something I had never looked for before.

in the mirror. Yeah, but it's like the next thing will be what's wrong with our knees. There'll be some kind of knee procedure or cosmetic fix for something that is completely utilitarian that allows us to move. So I think what we're talking about is a commercial pressure to exploit every body part. And you might be giving them ideas with the knees. No, no, that's a really bad thing. I feel so bad about saying.

Let me read the statement from MNS. They said we know our customers are looking for different levels of support, shaping and versatility from their underwear and shapewear. The all in one body is designed to be a flexible styling option with removable pads so customers can wear it in different ways. Like the rest of our shapewear range, it's about providing choice, helping customers feel comfortable, confident and supported.

I wish they did feel supported. comforted. That is really important in undergarments for women, but not if they're supposed to be just one particular way. Ali, let me bring you in here. First, your thoughts on the latest iteration. I was calling it a tale as old as time. It is a tale as old as time. And the MNS approach is remarkably nuanced compared to what's happened in the past. Body padding kind of got underway in the is a beefing era coming in from the continent. So it would be bum rolls. So what was a bum roll?

What was a bum roll? Just a pad, basically, that you would put on your behind. And also, it could go around the hips as well. And then your skirt would fall over this, and that would give you an added bulk in your figure. So that was going on for a long time. And then things kind of got out of hand in the 18th century. when the Mantua dress came in.

So these were massive court dresses where you'd actually wear a basket under your skirts. And these could be massive. So in the historic royal palaces, they've actually got one of these amazing dresses from Spittletfield Silk. And the actual hip measurement would be over two metres. I have walked down a wide avenue in a historic garden

where only two of those. dresses would be able to walk side by side. That just kind of gives you an idea of how massive they were. But how do you look at this, Susie? You know, if somebody says, you know, this is just something we've always done, it's fun, it's decorative. Well, it's something we've always done. It's something that the aristocracy or the rising bourgeoisie in the 18th and 19th century have done. And it was all part of what it meant to represent oneself as a woman, particularly in the last two centuries.

where the job was to find a husband, to run the household, to produce the airs and so on. Now we're in a whole different moment. And so this being insinuated into very early life that there's something wrong with our bodies that has to be fixed is not quite the same. What about that, Ali? That transcending perhaps from one sphere that would have, I suppose, had the means to use cosmetic. shaping, for example, going in the everyday, I just have to walk outside here and I'll see, you know, 10 stores that have body shapewear in it. It's a bit like today, it transcends down into lower classes.

So the working people, so they would be wearing bum rolls, even just your average person, basically. And then when crinolins came in, people were wearing those in the streets. but they'd be quite dangerous. People get them caught in things. Looking back in the long view, it is very strange to look at all the different fashions that have actually happened

and how popular they were. And a bit like Susie says, it's strange to think that we're always challenging what a female body should be like. But some of these fashions actually stopped people working because there was one corset in the 1840s which went down over your hips. You couldn't actually bend

in the middle. I have to say I shouldn't really be saying any particular brands or labels but there is some shape where you would not be able to bend over either if I'm completely honest. But here's one thing.

First to you, Ali, where do you think the pressure is coming from in history? Can you pinpoint it? Is it the patriarchy or something else in your view? Yeah, patriarchy, wealth. and then following what the influencers do in all periods. Yes, influencer isn't just a modern concept.

But Susie, you know, some might say, this is fun, you can experiment. And it does mean that you don't take more drastic action, perhaps, like going under the knife for surgery that I would imagine. If only. If only. Look, there's a report out by Peter Fonagie on the mental health of children. It's showing extraordinary distress around. the body, around eating problems, around cutting. And the kids are wanting to belong.

They're wanting to find a place in society. And particularly girls are confused about how they're supposed to live inside of their bodies. So no, I'm not delighted about this development as being easier than going under the knife. I'm concerned that we're not allowed to live in our bodies, which constantly, as we heard in a previous thing, are changing. We're reproductive at a certain time. We're not. We're post-reproductive. We're looking after others.

It's absolutely insane. You know, you make me think of something, Susie, as you talk about today and those reports as well. And if you have had issues, concerns with issues that we're discussing, Action Line is always a good place to go on the BBC's Action Line. But, you know, we're looking at ourselves much more than we ever did. I'm just thinking about mirrors, Ali. You know what I mean? that reflection of actually seeing our faces or our bodies,

it must never have been as diffuse in history. No, I mean, there were mirrors around. The welfare you were, you more like to have mirrors. I mean, in the Victorian period, you know, it was coming down. But it's nothing like today where there's mirrors everywhere, and then it's social media. It's that pressure of social media, and I think, like Susie says, I think it's when fashion becomes an obsession,

and all your life is focused on doing that. that things start getting dangerous, really. Ali, what do you think about the fact that little kids, two and three, are already presenting themselves for camera, in a pose? Let me get to Ali quickly? Yes, I think that's dangerous. Yeah, there's a lot of pressure on women and girls these days. Let me leave it there.

A conversation to be continued. I want to thank Susie Orbach and Ali Bodley for joining us for a thought-provoking conversation tomorrow. The Hollywood star, Catherine Zita Jones, will be with me in studio. A new action thriller series, Kill Jackie, is what we will talk about. It's really good fun. I'll see you at 10. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time.

Parenting a young child today means navigating a whirlwind of advice, opinions and relentless information. Tell me about it, Katie. But the good news is CBB's parenting download is here to take the edge off. Join me, Katie Thistleton, Radio One presenter and new mum. And me, Governor B, Mobo Award-winning rapper and Dad of Two, as we discover and unpack what it really means to be a parent. From the art of negotiation to tips on dealing with parental anxiety. Each episode, we're joined by well-known parents and trusted professionals

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