Woman's Hour - Author Louise Doughty, Scottish women offenders, Boxer Chantelle Cameron

Episode Date: August 24, 2026

After the death of both her parents best-selling novelist Louise Doughty made a startling discovery whilst clearing out the family home. Inside a black suitcase, she stumbled upon a treasure trove of letters that revealed the origins of her parents' love affair. She joins Nuala McGovern to discuss her first memoir On This Spot Fell One Tear of Love described as a portrait of grief and loss and family – and a love story.More information has been released about the crash that happened on the A66 near Middlesbrough in the early hours of Saturday morning - when a car travelling in the wrong direction crashed into a police vehicle, killing two officers and the 5 teenage boys in the other car. This after a similar incident last week in County Kildare in Ireland. There's a growing concern that social media trends are encouraging young people to drive dangerously and stream risk-taking videos online. We hear from Dr Paula Bradbury - who's a senior research fellow at University of East London. Paula has spent last 2 decades working in online harms, specialising in adolescent behaviour. Skin cancer rates have been rising steadily in the UK and, while men are slightly more likely to be diagnosed overall, younger women face a higher risk than men of the same age. One woman is calling on the government to scrap VAT on sunscreen after being diagnosed with skin cancer at the age of 26. Jessica Zbinden-Webster explains more while on her way to Downing street with her petition.Scotland’s overcrowded prison system is facing a deepening crisis, but a different approach to custody for women is showing early signs of cutting reoffending. The Lilias community custody unit in Glasgow is designed for women who require lower levels of supervision. Paula Arnold, Governor of HMP & Youth Offenders Institute Stirling, and responsible for the unit explains what these units offer.British boxer Chantelle Cameron is Britain’s first female undisputed boxing champion of the four-belt era, and the current WBO super-welterweight world champion. Next Saturday she’ll meet American Mikaela Mayer for a unification fight to win three super-welterweight world titles in Birmingham. She joins Nuala to talk about why she believes women should be fighting three-minute rounds, and why this weekend could be one of the most important nights of her career. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

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Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad and the Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith Bino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott.

So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcast. Thank you. Bye. Hello, this is Newell McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, this morning we will discuss concerns around this role of social media following car crashes, some fatal involving teenagers. Also, coming up on this program, no bars on the windows, no barbed wire, and no high-security walls. We're going to hear about a new way of housing female prisoners in Scotland.

We'll also have Louise Doughty. She has written many novels, but now has written a memoir. And it is such a tender telling of the love story between her parents that was only uncovered after their deaths by popping the rusty clasps of an old black suitcase. It's a beautiful book. We'll talk all about it. And we will also speak to the British boxing champion. That is Chantal Cameron, as she gears up for what's been called

the female fight of the year it is taking place in Birmingham on Saturday. If you'd like to get in touch with the programme on most smart speakers, you can say Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. You can text the program, the number is 84844 on social media or at BBC

Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website or for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 0300-100-444. But let me begin with that story you've been hearing about it in the news bulletin and on our programs throughout the morning about the accident that took place on the A66 near Middlesbrough in the early hours of Saturday morning. A car travelling in the wrong direction crashed into a police vehicle.

Investigators say the car had been pursued by officers in another vehicle until 10 seconds before the collision. We know two police officers died and also five males aged between 17 and 23. It all comes after a similar incident that took place last week in County Culdare in Ireland. That saw the death of five teenage boys after they drove down the motorway the wrong way. There is growing concern that social media trends are encouraging young people to drive dangerously and stream risk-taking videos online. Here's Defence Minister Luke Pollard telling the Today programme

that social media companies need to take action. The government's already had conversations with social media companies, working with them to take down that type of content because we know that if you have content online that celebrates this dangerous behavior driving on the wrong side of the road turning your lights off while driving at speed at night it encourages other people to do so as well and on social media the way the algorithms work is it spools up controversial content it serves it to more people the social media companies benefit from that and the creators of that content can benefit from it as well. And that's why I think the opportunities for social media companies to recognize that this

content is particularly dangerous, that there is an acute public concern about it is something that they could act on today. And I hope that by colleagues across government working with those social media companies, that content can be taken down. But I really hope that somewhere within those big tech companies, there's just an understanding that celebrating such dangerous behavior might create a sugar rush of some increased views in the short term for them, but it's bad for their business model and it's bad for societies a whole. And if we can have social media companies policing themselves better, as well as governments taking proportionate steps to encourage everyone to be safe online

and safe on our roads, then I think we'll be in a much better place. Now, we don't have all the specifics about the accident that took place in the UK. We are expecting police to release more details very soon. But I want to bring in my guest, Dr Paula Bradbury. She's a senior research fellow at the University of East London. She spent two decades working in online harm, specialising an adolescent behaviour. Good to have you with this, Paula.

I mean, I was very shocked. I was really following that story in Ireland from over a week ago where they had more specifics about videos being filmed while driving, sometimes filmed, sometimes streaming. This, we don't know all the details on this case. we do know that it was young men and boys driving the wrong way down, a motorway so far. But your reaction when you read about these crashes

and other videos that have been previously uploaded showing some of this behaviour? I mean, good morning, yeah. I mean, it's devastating. The whole entire situation itself is absolutely awful and the fact that it's involving young people in it as a form of trending is deeply concerning. And it isn't trends online which young people follow,

which have these sort of thrill-seeking sort of activities. It's not something new. This is something that Tristan Safety, you know, within large online platforms of any size, have been battling for a very long time. And it really is a challenge, an obstacle for them to target and remove off their platforms. but it does get a considerable amount of engagement from not just young people, from adults as well.

And it does, sadly, there's this whole proliferation of the need for likes and to be seen and to engage. And that's some of the troubling things that we are seeing. And it does get an extensive amount of engagement by young people. Explain to me if you can, particularly when it comes to young people, the intersection between social media and risk-taking behaviour. Well, certainly within the online space, you know, there's a theory that we obviously look at within sort of the social sciences, which is called online disinhibition, where you sort of separate yourself from what's reality for what is fantasy and fiction. So it's almost not real. And the engagement with other people's responses to activities is extremely popular.

essentially almost validates their behaviours and their engagement within those spaces. So it's quite troubling. And with that particular, I suppose some of these particular incidences that we're seeing as well, I mean, we are hearing, for example, calls for TikTok to take down that content

and they say they are monitoring and also taking down content that is inappropriate or unsuitable or engendering certain behaviour. But is there a way really to stop it before those videos go up? This is the challenge. Having worked interest and safety myself, you're very much firefighting from the front line of what crops of

and what pops up as well within the type of videos that are being put on these sites. So it depends on some of the things that their AI language learning models, you know, that they can trace and their moderators can see from the type of hashtagging that's in place. But a lot of the time it's firefighting as it presents. and they are rapidly addressing it as fast as humanly possible. And that's the response that they're doing, is they're literally trying to battle it as fast as humanly possible. And we know that.

But I think it stems much more wider, is why is this type of content being celebrated and launched, considering the risks, and we're having to battle it. And do you have any theories on that? Yes. I think there's being seen online, is incredibly powerful. I am how my lot,

the amount of likes that I receive, you know, it's almost self-validating is it comes down to it. It's not just young men as well. It's, am I popular? Am I exciting? And also,

there's also the risk of any forms of monetisation that come accompanied with things like this, but being cool or fitting in, and those sorts of trends, a lot of the forms that young people, how they communicate and how they self, how they represent themselves in these online spaces and that's some of the concerning features.

This has been really a story about boys and young men. I was reading a guard, a police officer in Ireland who talked about, you know, who had been a police officer for many, many years and he says, you know, reckless driving was often something that they had to try and track and crack down on. obviously even in an age before social media. But do you think, like is there something specific with young men as opposed to young women that this behaviour is more attractive?

Is that who's watching it? The concerning point is whether this type of behaviour has been celebrated as a male-dominated sort of format of expression. This is what makes somebody masculine or this is what makes you brave or strong. And it's those sort of harmful narratives that we're seeing expressed towards young boys of this is what it is to be a male. You know, that's one of the concerning rhetorics that needs to be tackled. It's about these ideas of masculinity that are essentially false narratives. And they're incredibly damaging and harmful for the future of young boys, essentially.

Yeah, I mean, I think one in Ireland, there was a couple of crashes that had been highlighted one, the second one. A lot of people died in it. But a previous one, one of the boys was as young as 13 that was in one of these particular crashes. With this, however, then, how do you intercept young boys, young men and try and deter this type of behaviour if social media is where it's happening? Well, my honest opinion is algorithms. One of my main concerns regarding this is the ease at which this content can flag up on young people's for your pages. So, for example, you know, a young boy, when it's teenage boys and, you know, when young men go through this phase and I've got teenagers and myself is they go back phase, we're all sort of all feet and hands, they're all quite gangly and they all search up exercises or balking up or fitness. And even through searching those sort of innocent terms, they can be recommended.

harmful content that's been liked and shared around, then once you see it once, it comes up again, then you're recommended more. And before you know it, you know, a young boy is, you know, an old word, are opening up their social media pages and they're getting flooded with harmful rhetoric. And that's one of the concerns here is that they're being, I am what I consume ultimately, which is worrying. And it's about having those conversations. And I don't think, no matter what we do, you know, you could put things in place, but those sort of videos will come or sneak through like water through cracks. It's how we shape our dialogues with young boys

and we talk about what we see, how we consume it and how it shapes our impressions. But then also we need to be shaping what the accessibility is in relation to algorithms and what's being recommended to young people. And suppose that is a conversation then that we'll be taking place with social media platforms. We heard a little of Luke Pollard previously.

Paul Bradbury, thank you very much for joining us this morning, starting us off as we speak about that latest crash, but really putting in the context of other social media concerns around it. You will have seen the wife of Matthew Blades and also the other officer, Tom, cloth their families speaking out this morning, describing them as heroes, a very sad story. There's more details on that on our website and we do expect more details to come out on that crash in the next hour or so. 4-844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, let me turn to another story. This is a health story that we were seeing this morning. Skin cancer rates have been rising steadily in the UK, and while men are slightly more likely to be diagnosed overall,

younger women face a higher risk than men off the same age. Jessica Zbindon-Webster was diagnosed with skin cancer at 26 and underwent major facial surgery. She's now campaigning to remove VAT from sunscreen, arguing that a product used to help prevent skin cancer shouldn't be taxed as a cosmetic. Jessica is with me now. Good to have you with us, Jessica. Morning. Thanks for having me. I understand you're actually on your way to Downing Street and just managed to fit in a quick phone call with us. Thank you very much for doing that. So tell me a little bit about your thinking

about this petition to remove VAT from sunscreen. Sure. Well, I got skin cancer when I was 26 years old, as you mentioned. So it was a bit of a shocker, to say the least. I didn't think that patients in their 20s were vulnerable to this disease. But after my experience with it, I did a lot of research around how to prevent the disease from ever happening again, how to protect the people around me. And what I found was really alarming shortcomings in the policies that are designed to protect us from this avoidable disease. So at the moment, one in five people in the UK is going to get a skin cancer diagnosis at some point, but it's 90% preventable just by using sunscreen regularly. And yet, sunscreen is classed as a cosmetic for that purposes, which means that consumers

pay a maximum 20% VAT on every bottle that they buy. And as an ex-skin cancer patient, and now as a mother myself, I'm really disgusted that this tax also applies to sunscreen for babies and children. So it penalises parents for protecting their children's skin. It's not just ineffective as a tax. It's actually immoral. So you call it an immoral issue. What sort of reaction have you had thus far?

Do you know the sort of reaction that you might get when you get to number 10? Well, I'm really lucky in that I'm campaigning on an issue that seems to horrify people almost universally. I think that the reason that this tax is still in place is because, frankly, not enough consumers are aware of it. and when they do realize that they're being penalised to practice skin cancer prevention, they immediately want to see this tax axed. I've got almost 100,000 signatures now on the petition for my campaign,

which you can find on Change.org searching Ax the SPF tax. And so I feel like I've got a lot of the public on my side, patients, doctors, cross-party politicians who have actually recommended this as a policy to government in a recent parliamentary inquiry. So I'm travelling hopefully this morning. Okay, well here's a government spokesperson had this to say. As part of our 10-year plan to reform the Health Service

and through a national cancer plan, we will fight cancer on all fronts from prevention to diagnosis, treatment and research. High factor sunscreen is on the NHS prescription list for certain conditions and is already provided vat-free when dispensed by a pharmacist to these patients. Your thoughts? Yeah, my thoughts on that.

So on the point about prescription sunscreens, yes, technically prescription sunscreens are available, that free. However, they apply to almost no patients. For example, I'm a ex-skin cancer patient. I still don't qualify for prescription sunscreen. In 2024, only around 1.5,000 patients got sunscreen prescriptions, 1 and 1,000 in a population of 60-something million. You do the math. Prescription sunscreens are not coming to save the day. So that's a bit of a nothing-burger of an excuse to be honest.

and that's why I'm campaigning for enhanced accessibility to preventative healthcare when it comes to sunscreen and skin cancer prevention across the board because it's not just those qualifying patients who are vulnerable to skin cancer, it's everyone. Is it when you think people don't use sunscreen? Do you always think it's money that stands in the way or awareness?

You talked there about being surprised, obviously at such a young age getting a skin cancer diagnosis? Yeah, it's an interesting point. I do think the reasons are multifactorial, but I have to say that in a cost of living crisis, affordability and accessibility to preventative healthcare are central in this conversation. Around one in 10 families doesn't buy sunscreen specifically because it is too expensive. Around 70% of people want to see the VAT acts who are surveyed. And there was some alarming Cancer Research UK figures that came out about a week ago that 60% of the UK hasn't bought sunscreen in 2020. that's despite the temperatures and the high UV levels that we've seen. And I don't think that the cost of living crisis is a coincidence. And if you think that this summer has been damaging to our landscape, just imagine what it's done to our skin, particularly for those who can't afford sunscreen.

Jessica Zindon-Webster is on our way to number 10. Stop to make a phone call to us. Thanks very much. Good to speak to you this morning. Thank you. And we'll continue following your progress with that particular campaign. Now, after the death of... both her parents, Avis and Ken.

The best-selling novelist, Louise Doughty, made a startling discovery while cleaning out the family home. Inside a black suitcase called the black suitcase in her book, she stumbled upon a treasure trove of letters that revealed the origins of her parents' illicit love

affair, and it has led her to write a memoir. She introduces us to two hopeful young people, full of spirit and determination, people she had simply known as mum and dad previously. the book is called On This Spot Fell One Tear of Love.

It's a portrait of grief and loss and family but really it's a love story and Louise joins me in the Woman's Hour Studio. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me. What a beautiful book. Now you say this is the only love story you are ever likely to write.

Why? Well, it's true. I'm famous for being something of a cynic and my novels, my most recent novels, the last few of them, have been what people called psychological thrillers. There was Apple Triad, which was on the television,

and the most recent was called A Bird in Winter. That was a spy story. And I do make a joke, although it's not entirely a joke in the preface, to, on this spot fell one tier of love. And I say, no woman gives up everything for a man in any of my novels. She's more likely to stab him with a chisel. And it's true. And I am a fully paid up cynic in terms of,

I'm very antagonistic towards the idea that women are supposed to be obsessed with, romance and hearts and flowers and pink and all the rest of it. So it's something of an irony that my first work of narrative nonfiction is actually a love story. And why was it important to tell this story? Well, I suppose at the most fundamental human level, I didn't want my parents to be dead. I didn't want them to die. Well, they very much came alive for me. Well, thank you.

That's a lovely thing to say. and it's my highest hope for this book, really, that readers will read it and simply have a small place in their hearts. It's a very odd thing as an adult. I mean, my parents were in their 80s. They didn't die young, but I still felt this enormous resistance

to the idea that they were just going to slip away into history. You know, they were two working-class people. They'd left school in their mid-teens. They were destined by birth to live, work hard, raise their family, and then just disappear. And I railed against that. I wanted to sort of save them from that. Although I do say in the book

that I realised towards the end one of my most important tasks was not to rescue them from oblivion. It was also to rescue them from my memories of them, which are of course flawed and partial. Yes, our parents are human beings. Who knew?

You talk it, there is a quote used in the book by Raghu Kornad. People have two deaths, the first at the end of their lives when they go away and the second at the end of the memory of their lives when all who remember them are gone. It's very poignant. It is really poignant and he puts it so beautifully and I would recommend his memoir as well.

I think what is it that we can't let go? It's very odd. I mean people hang on to dresses that their mother's wore almost everybody listening will probably be hanging on to an item that has no value and we hang on to our memories. And obviously we can't fill the world with things that belong to previous generations. But I think the memories, it's not just about our individual parents.

I think there's something also broader about history, about honoring how hard life was for previous generations, about not having a romantic view of the past. And that's an important aspect of the book for me because most of it takes place in the 1950s, the post-war era. which some people tend to be nostalgic about. The cars were great, the dresses were great, the suits were great. But actually, it was a very hard time. Rationing stayed in place for many years after the war. It was a time of prejudice.

If you were a person of colour or gay or having an adulterous affair, life could be extremely difficult. Or a woman. Women were expected to give up work when they married and had children. And I think acknowledging how tough life was for previous generations, but yet how people could still triumph over that toughness is incredibly important. Your parents were born in, your mum definitely in the 30s.

In the 30s. And dad in the 20s. 20s, yeah, which I always think is fascinating. My parents would have been around the same age as yours as well, but that we have that connection to like 100 years ago, you know, a century way and the way of living then. It's quite incredible to actually have that. insight and just coming to the woman part of it when I talk about women's hour. There was a line I wrote down because it stayed with me. What you understood, I'll read it in your words. What I understood

instinctively throughout my childhood and adolescence and what women and girls have understood through history and across continents is that the price you pay for male protection is obedience. Yes. Can you expand on that for me? Yes. I'm glad you highlight that line because it was important to me. You know, our father was a very traditional husband and father, and obviously there was a great deal of good that came that way. He absolutely thought that masculinity was about marrying, fathering children and providing for them. He was a provider and a protector in a very traditional way, and he was very good at it. But I think as a woman, even as a young woman, You cannot be unaware that the price you pay for that is a certain level of obedience.

Our household did revolve around his needs. And our mother was a very traditional housewife. Dad came first after that housework, the management of the house. And, you know, when people eulogise full-time mothers from the past, they were full-time wives and housekeepers before being full-time mothers. I mean, when we were small and mum was very open about this, you know, she would change our nappies, give us a bottle, then stick us in the garden with a cat net over the pram. That was a new word for me. So the cat couldn't get into your pram.

Absolutely. Did you not have catnets? They probably did, but I don't remember them. I mean, that was what you did. And if the baby screamed and screamed and screamed, mothers were told, well, it's good for the baby to get some air in their lungs. And mum got on with the housework, cleaned the skirting boards. And our father came home at lunchtime every day from work and expected a cooked meal on the table the minute he got through the door. And that was the traditional housewife's role in many areas of the country in many different classes for that generation of women. And I think remembering that is important.

And that she was always, I suppose, put second, you know, you describe her so beautifully and paint this lovely picture of her that we get to know in various levels as we've got to. go through the book. I just have to let people know that you describe your dad as the Errol Flynn of the East Midlands. He was, bless him. He was tall, mustachioed handsome and he could fence. Let us turn. So you have a brother and sister that you're going through with it as well and you're very clear to say it in your words what was happening. Not in there, what they were thinking, etc. There was a great line I was reading as well. What was it that once a writer, we You're quoting someone once a writer is in the family, that's the end of the family or whatever. It's like all the secrets are out.

But all the secrets were actually in a black suitcase that you eventually managed to open. And tell us a little about the treasure trove you found inside. Well, honestly, it sounds as if I've made it up as a novelist the way I discovered that, but I promise I haven't. We started clearing out mum's bedroom. There was this battered black suitcase at the bottom of her wardrobe. there was some damp on the wall behind it. I tried to open it. The clasps were rusted shut. We started using one room as a kind of dumping ground

for things that we would excavate at a later date. And it was actually on the last day that I was alone in the house, almost two years later. It was about to be sold, finally. And there were just these few boxes and things that we had to look at again before we threw them out. And had I been unable to open those clasps, I probably would have put that black suitcase.

It was very battered and very dusty out by the bins. But they flew open with this clunk and I lifted the lid and I thought this is just junk paper. It was letterhead paper from the engineering firm where our parents had met in the 1950s. And I turned it over and there was some rather awful, sorry, dad, rather awful poetry written in my father's hand in pencil, which was a surprise and I gave a small disloyal chortle at that.

And then there was a letter, and it was a letter from our father to our mother ending their relationship. And it was very, very poignant and beautifully written, a heartbroken and heartbreaking letter to read. And then I started turning over all the other bits of scrap paper. And there were scores of letters, which charted the entire history of their love affair, their secret love affair, when they met. mum was a teenage village lass and dad was 10 years older and as it turned out married to another woman. I should probably say it was quite an exercise in literary criticism because there were no dates on any of the letters. So when I finally, at a much later date, got round to reading them all more thoroughly and spreading them out on the kitchen table, I had to try and put them in order from their contents.

So there were references to Easter and attempted Easter break. There were references to Christmas. I had to, and it took place over many years this affair as well because it took them years and years. It took my father years and years to get a divorce. And then suddenly I had this whole narrative on my hands written by my parents in their own words. And I do want to say that if this book is anything, it is something because of their words, not mine. I am no more than, if you like, the introduction to what they have written about themselves. And I think I'm going to object to that.

I'm just thinking because you brought me to a place with it that I was so invested in them. So then when the letters come, we have a whole different take on them. You talk about, you know, they're telling about life in the 1950s, etc. But you are really interested in social mobility, which resonates so much as well today. And I was trying to find this morning. I'm afraid I didn't find it. But there was a few lines you heard about specifically being. a middle class girl slash woman coming from working class roots of parents that gave you a grittiness.

Can you, you probably remember the words a little bit better than the way I'm saying it. I mean, I do acknowledge in the book. I say maybe there's an argument for saying it's the most privileged upbringing of all. Correct. Because there was no serious hardship when we were growing up. Yes. We didn't go hungry. I mean, the food was not exciting.

It has to be said. But that, hey, that was the East Midlands of the 1970s. but yet I think we grew up with a sense of being underdogs within the privileged arena with which we were being raised and also constantly being told, you know, how hard life was, particularly by our father who was very keen that we should know what he had come from. And I think that slightly chippy sense of being an underdog, but without any real life. Without actually having to do the hard work of it. I'm so conscious of my own privilege. now. And that's also part of the rationale behind wanting to write this book is to acknowledge my

own privileges, and particularly to capture that moment, as you say, of post-war social mobility in the 1950s, which we have to say has now gone. Our parents had left school at 13, 15. They raised their children. They got us all to university. And we were the first generation in either family, not just to go to university, but to even finish secondary education. We all went to university on full grants, our fees paid by Leicestershire County Council. You know, we were uniquely privileged and we could afford to buy our own homes when we were working growing up. That's simply not true for my children's generation. We have massively gone backwards in terms of social mobility. And I do hope, although this book is primarily a

love story, that that's also the message behind it, that we're getting something wrong as a society, when our parents' modern-day equivalent could never privileged their children in the way that we were privileged. It is a love story but not just between your parents I think. I think it's really a love story from you to them as well or a love letter, should I say. Yeah, really beautiful and I was totally drawn in by it. On this spot fell one tear of love. Louise Doughty has been telling us all about it.

It is very thought-provoking. It is published on August 27th as well. so for those that would like to pick it up. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you for having me. Louise was mentioning there, you know, things that we hold on to. It was a wool suit that her mother was married in that Louise held onto, off her mother even clearing out.

And I was just wondering if that resonates with you. 844 is one way to get in touch. Perhaps you'd like to tell us about something that you held onto after a loved one passed. I'd love to hear about it. 84844, or any of the usual ways, to get in touch with us on social media. Growing businesses deal with the same problem. Too many tools, too much back and forth and not enough time. Odu helps bring it all together. It's an all-in-one business management platform, fully integrated from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, so your team can spend less time chasing information and focus on growth. Whether you're in retail, manufacturing or service, Odu gives you one place to manage your business. Visit Odo.com to book a demo. It's O'Doo. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of Your Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes

history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad and the Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith Bino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desireate. Birch will meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcast. Thank you. Bye.

Now, I want to turn to Scotland and to a prison with no bars on the windows. Now, this is all part of a multi-million pound experiment to tackle women re-offending through rehabilitation. So to stop them re-offending. In the Lilias Community Custody Unit, or the CCU in Glasgow, Offenders live in flats rather than cells. They work in the local community. In some cases, they even leave the facility during the day. To look a little bit more deeply into how this facility is working

and also the impact that it's having, I'm joined by Paula Arnold. She's the governor of His Majesty's Prison and Young Offenders Institute, Sterling, Scotland's National Prison for Women. She's also responsible for the all-women, Eliehese community custody units. Good to have you with us.

So tell us a little bit more about this unit. It's one of two, I should say, that you run. The other is the Bella. in Dundee. Why was it set up? Good morning. Thank you for having me on this morning. It's a pleasure to be here. Well, the Lillian Bellas centres have now been open for four years, but they were really about 10 years in the making in terms of all the thinking that went behind that. And there was a report that was that the Scottish government commissioned around 2012 by Aylish Angelini.

and this report made recommendations for the future custody of women in Scotland. And as a result of that, it led on to a lot of research. There was a symposium commissioned in 2015. And we wanted to do something different in Scotland, something that took an international research, and would give us something that would be fabulous in terms of how we would transform the lives of women in Scotland and to look at different ways of how we'd work with them.

And I think up until then, we'd been very traditional in our prisons in Scotland and how we managed them. The culture had been the same for women for a number of years, with Courtenvale being the main prison. And there was definitely an appetite there to do something different, especially having women relocated to more of their local areas. So there was a team set up, a women's strategy team set up, to look at which areas in Scotland would probably benefit from the most with having these

community custody units within them. And it was decided that there were sites looked at in Glasgow and Dundee, where the majority of the women who were at Court and Vale at that time came from. And instead of progressing into the natural progression system for women was that there was a row of houses outside court and bail at that time, which was training for freedom. It was felt it was going to be with the research that we had to have women initiated within their own landscapes, within their own communities,

the better community integration could start to work for us in Scotland because there was no point in repeating the same mistakes that we already had with a new prison, whereby the training for freedom, the custody units, were right outside the door set in Sterling because the majority of our prisoners, the women that we look after, came from Glasgow and Dundee.

So once we gained the land and the planning permission, etc., and the design started looking at, it was a really exciting time for Scotland to look ahead and build these units. So you've built the units, there's some pictures of them online. I mentioned at the top, you know,

no bars on the windows, for example, that it's a cozier environment, I guess I would say to try and describe it. But a woman who is in there, for example, she will have more freedoms, is my understanding, may be able to cook for herself, live in a flat instead of a cell. Some people feel, you know, this is a soft touch

that prisons are created for people that have, as a punishment, and that's why they're being held in custody. What would you respond to that? I think we've got to look at what's worked in the past and what hasn't worked and really establishing someone back in their community, back with all the services on their doorstep, is going to help people reintegrate.

And you've got to remember that, you know, some of the statistics that we do have about women is, you know, it's quite significant that, you know, 78% of women in custody have had a significant head injury. 59% reported a drug problem. 70% are victims of violence and 61% were diagnosed with PTSD. So you're not really dealing with a group of women who have got that stability in their lives and they actually need that extra bit of help with the community custody units.

What we find is because every single person, we try to treat with a person-centered approach, which means they've got an individual plan. But also it's really important to have some aspiration and when you are in a mainstream prison, they thought of actually, you're quite nervous at being transferred to the community custody units.

So a soft landing with knowing that you're going to be treated with that kind of personal sense of the community integration is really important to that person and settling them down and trying to put them on the correct path so that when they go back in the community, they can start to lead good lives. And we do know from early signs,

data from your service talked about reoffending rates are down around 11% compared to the national average. These are very small numbers, so there's 46 released from the CCUs as they're called in 2024. Six were reconvicted within a year, but that is lower than it would be as the national average. There has been at times, however, criticisms last December, a research team led by the University of Glasgow spoke to 33 women living in the units. they did say they felt safe living there and liked having access to the on-site health and social care staff and spoke positively about the staff but a couple of issues they did talk about, for example,

that body searches were still being carried out? Yeah, body searches, it's part of prison rules. Unfortunately, it's one of these things that we would like to try and get around in the future with more modern technology. So that's one of the things I'm in discussions with headquarters in Scotland in terms of how can we introduce for example, body scanners, the same as what we have in the women's national institution in Sterling.

So talks are ongoing about that, which I think would be a great help. Other aspects were a lack of purposeful activity, so limited access to life skills and cooking lessons, some saying they felt bored or disaffected. What would you respond to that? I think when the Sparrow team were first in there, it was very early days of opening up with these community custody units. and, you know, establishing that trust between, it's a trust between having a risk management team and having that person there and allowing them into the community.

So I think, you know, we're much more refined and much more progressed in terms of allowing women to have access to shopping and to work and to having more of the visits in the community now. So I think it was very early days when that report was written. And these may be also early days, but they did feel there was fewer examples of women being integrated into the community than expected. Do you think that's a fair criticism?

I think it was fair at the time. And I think if the research team came back just now, you know, that we've evolved quite a lot as a purpose and as a team there. And we think that, you know, we've taken a lot of steps to overcome some of the research that was given to us at that time and make sure that we can rectify some of the comments that were made. It is part of a multi-million pound experiment, as I mentioned. What about the cost? The numbers are small that are in it.

It's just a few dozen really all told. 24, I believe, for Lily is 16 for Bella's in Dundee. How do you justify the cost? I think in terms of the cost, every person that doesn't come back is really, really a bonus in terms of knowing that they've turned their lives around knowing what the staff have been working them with them on and having that feeling that when someone has got their best chance of not returning to custody because you know we

talk about the revolving door of short-termers coming back and I think for every single person who does get established in the community with their families and with community links or set up in a place and a home is a very very vital place for someone to be just to start that journey of living in the community so if we can get that right at the very beginning for the person. There's the least chance possible of coming back. So that would be the return on investment really as people not coming back to us.

And the cost associated. You're probably familiar with Colin Sutton, a policy advisor for the Reform UK party. He was on here and he proposed releasing most women from prison as a radical alternative to solve Britain's severe jail overcrowding crisis. Scotland has its own system, of course.

But I'm just curious what do you think of that proposal? I have been asked that question before actually and I think that having worked with women for a number of years you've got to take into account really what women are in custody for there's probably about 80 less women from the start of COVID now in custody

so the numbers have reduced significantly compared to the male estate in relation to those that are being sent to prison so I think that you know in terms of you don't want to prison anybody that shouldn't be here. However, there are those that there are risk to the public and have to be kept securely in a prison. But so it just depends on which. Depends on the risk, really. And I think, you know, the risk is well assessed through the risk management teams in terms of,

you know, I think the parole board has done, has a job to do as well within that and releasing people. And I would say for the community custody units, we've had really, really good positive results with the parole board in terms of how many women are being released from the community custody units compared to a mainstream prison where they've not had that access to the community, to their families and to reintegrate and to the community as such. Paula Arnold, thank you very much, the governor of His Majesty's Prison and Young Offenders Institute, Stirling and also responsible for the all-women lilia's community custody units that we've been discussing this morning.

Now, over the summer, Women's Hour is hearing from some of the academic. who've been working Radio 4 about their research. Ritika Subramanian works at the University of East Anglia, where she studies the effects of climate change on women living in poverty in the global south. I've been thinking quite extensively about heat waves, specifically looking at the ways in which it has a direct impact on the everyday lives of young women and girls, because much of the advice that we receive,

especially like public health advisories, among other things, are very much focused on looking at heat waves as a medical problem, focused extensively on, say, heatstrokes, focused extensively also on hospital admissions, etc., which are very important indicators. But at the same time, I think it also has a huge impact on the lives of young women and girls. And this is something that we've been seeing globally as well. It very much changes how people work, how they care for others, how they're able to move through public spaces and participate in their communities, and all of those impacts are deeply gendered. I was in Sindhupal Chalk in Nepal's Middle Hills just last week. It is a

district where climate change has been colliding with long-standing social and economic pressures. And over the years, rainfall has become more and more uncertain. Summers have become hotter and many men migrate overseas for work. One thing that a lot of young women, women I met told me that they were routinely working close to 18 hour days, balancing farming, paid work and almost all of the unpaid care at home as well, care work at home. They described having to step into traditional roles of men as well, such as loving fields, carrying heavy loads and managing farms, while having to continue also all the care work that they were doing at home. So in a way, climate change, the way they were experiencing it in

the context of heat waves, is not just adding another burden, but it is redistributed. labor onto those who already carry the greatest share of it. Similar examples are also things that I've been seeing even in Western India, where I come from, wherein drought has always been a part of our lives, but climate change is turning familiar risks into unfamiliar extremes. This year alone, after two months of temperatures standing at what, 45 degrees Celsius, flash floods swept through the region in early July. And, and and with crops failing, incomes disappearing, and growing uncertainty, families are forced into difficult decisions, and these decisions are hardest on girls, whether it means leaving

schools or in some communities also entering child marriage. So the heat waves impact the everyday lives and labour relationships to a great extent. Heat waves or climate change are not a South Asia problem or an Africa problem. The kind of labour impacts that we are seeing are very much part of a broader global problem. And I think if we're taking into account that in itself is a very important first step, wherein effective heat adaptation must go beyond, you know, a biomedical approach. It very much has to recognize the unequal realities of labor, care, culture, and social norms. The heat wave doesn't just raise temperatures, but it exposes and in a way magnifies or amplifies inequalities. So I think one simple

but perhaps an important addition to the heat advisories, the heat advisory, for instance, that we've been receiving in the UK, could very well be just acknowledging the relational aspects of heat waves. So, for instance, a line like, say, employers, institutions, communities and families should support flexible working, help share care responsibilities and ensure access to cool spaces during periods of extreme heat. Now, that single sentence alone would recognize, something we have long overlooked that adapting to heat is not just an individual problem

or individual challenge, it is very much a shared one. Ritika Subramanian from the University of East, Anglia, thanks very much to her. Thanks also for your messages, just since we had Louise Daution, they're coming in in their droves about what you have from loved ones that have passed. Here's one. I have my mum's washboard that she bought when she married in 1954. She used it up to her passing. Harry cleaned, rubbed it clean, and it's now hanging in the wall, on the wall, excuse me, next to my washing machine.

Here's another. My big brother, Chris, who identified as a custard cream eater, died last year, age 70. He was the last of my family and his passing has hit me hard. Going through his things was difficult, so I decided to keep only the things that made me smile. One was his favourite t-shirt, which is emerald green with the slogan, founder member of the Custard Cream Appreciation Society emblazoned on it. At his funeral, I gave everyone a packet of custard creams to toast my brother with afterwards. How lovely, 844, if you'd like to get in touch. Now, let us turn to one of the boxers in what is expected to be, the female fight off the year.

It's Chantelle Cameron. She made history in 2022 by becoming the first British woman to hold all four major boxing world titles, all at the same time. This weekend, Chantel will fight American boxing. that's Michaela Mayor in Birmingham. They're fighting to decide who will hold three World Championship titles in what's called a unification fight.

Chantel has 22 wins from 23 professional bouts. Yes, that is a very high score. She has reached the top of her sport and is also working to achieve equality in women's boxing. Let's talk about this fight ahead. Her campaign also for three minute rounds will get into that and why this could be one of the

biggest nights of her career. Chantel, welcome to Women's Hour. Thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure I love to see your t-shirt. I just have to tell our radio listeners. So you've got the black t-shirt, Shantel Cameron across it. On one side,

the lion with the union flag, on the other side, the eagle with the American flag, as you, I suppose, face up to Michaela Mayer, who usually lives in Las Vegas, I think, but it's coming to Birmingham for this fight. Now, let us talk about this unification fight.

Three boxing belts, so WBO, WBA, WBC, I suppose it's a three and one, shall we say. How are you feeling going into it? I'm really excited. So today's, I'm actually off to the gym after this. It's my last actual little punch. I'm not really going to be doing much.

It's just short and sharp. But then I'm heading down to Birmingham and that's when the fight week really begins. And I'm really excited. I'm cool calm and collected. Cool, calm and collect. Now, you know what I was pretty fascinated about? When it comes to, you know, the various weights

that you can box at. For women, you can sometimes go up or down and then kind of go into these different weight categories. I believe you and Michaela have decided upon one weight. Yeah. And I'm just wondering the preparation for that to stay within those parameters.

What's it like? Yeah, so this is my third weight division now. So it's all just about having a good nutritionist, good nutrition and you've either putting on more muscle or stripping a bit of muscle. So it depends on what weight you're going for, but there's a lot of movement in how you've got to prepare for the weight changes and the camp that you have if you are doing a weight, weight change. Have I got it right that both of you are meeting at 148? Yeah, so the belts at 154, but none of us are really 1-5-4 fighters, so it's a catch weight at 148. How do you feel when you hear

it's been called the fight of the year? Excited because I know it's going to be. I feel like both our stars are just going to catch fire. And it also gives me more motivation to put on a good performance because I want a nice award with female fight of the year. I've had one already, but I think my mantle piece will look good with another. Yeah, let's talk about this. So, you know, I know you've won many titles,

but there's not that many women, or probably men, that would give up one of their titles in the name of equality principles. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, my team wasn't the most pleased with my decision but also supported my decision because I just think for women's boxing to go further, we should be doing three-minute rounds like the men do.

So for people that don't know, amateur female boxers do three-minute rounds in amateurs just like the men. but when you go into professional boxing, women only do two minute rounds because they say that it's not safe for women. And basically women don't have the strength to do the extra minute where I think that's wrong. And I think for women's boxing to get the respect it deserves and to move forward, we should be doing what the guys are doing. And that way we can really ask for equality and equal pay. But if we are doing less work and we're doing one minute less each round, I don't think we're doing.

we can argue that. So yeah, I made a stand and I handed back a world title belt because the WBC won't accept women to do three minute rounds. They're saying that basically women ain't capable of it and I disagree. Do you think it will ever go to a three minute round? I really hope it does, but more women need to make the stand because otherwise it will stay at two minute rounds and there is pros and cons towards it, but for women's boxing to really keep going to, and keep driving forward because it is, it needs momentum. You need more women to support the movement. And I think that could have a massive benefit in women doing 10, 12, 3 minute round fights for titles.

And I think that way it's going to put women's boxing on the map more than it's just going to keep it going and keeping the movement. I feel, you know, I feel over the past decade women's boxing has come on in leaps and bounds. You know what I mean? There's many names that we can throw out that are household names when it's, comes to female boxers. So it'll be really interesting to see how that progresses. People may also know that you're the only woman to have beaten the Irish boxer Katie Taylor. That was 2023.

You lost the rematch six months later. I know it was a difficult period coming back. I have heard you speak about that before. I've also heard you say that you learned an awful lot from it. What do you think was the biggest takeaway for you? The losing isn't the end of the world. I think I was underfeard. And having your first loss, it does hit you hard.

Sure. But I realise it's not the end of the world, like you bounce back. So whenever you do take a loss, you can just bounce back and you become better. So my biggest lesson I learn is a loss doesn't mean that it's over. You just have to come back stronger. As you plan to do in Birmingham or have done, I suppose, in the intervening years as well. Now, there's often a trilogy, tree fights, let's say. Tree, as I'd say, Katie Taylor, with the Irish.

accent, but she is approaching retirement, she's got this big match coming up 80,000 in Crow Park, etc. But do you feel, I'm just wondering as a boxer, that there's unfinished business there that you would like to take her one more time? There definitely is unfinished business, 100

percent, but I also respect her decision to walk away from the sport. I think she's done it all, she's achieved amazing things, and I think she's like 40 now. So, she's entitled to go off and enjoy, enjoy her life and she's put so many years into boxing,

it will be selfish with me to be like kicking and fussing over and not having the trilogy. It would have been good for women's boxing for the trilogy because it was won a piece. There's never been a woman's strategy that's won a piece where there was a score to settle. So there is unfinished business, but I also think it is time for her to settle off now and enjoy everything she's achieved. Because, you know, we've alluded to it there. You know, whenever we talk about boxing, a lot of listeners will disagree with the sport, for example, some even more, what would I say, against women's boxing. I know it is a dangerous sport. It can raise questions about long-term health. You have brain scans,

for example. How do you balance that risk and the love of competing? Do you think you would ever stop if, for example, they were saying, actually, you know, you've got a few. you too many knocks. 100%. I think it's really important that if you do get that, any signs of you've had one too many hard fights

or one too many hard spas is trying to walk away because sport is sport, sports there to love, but it's also your health is way more important. So I think for myself and for any upcoming boxer, any signs of any long-term health injuries

to your brain or just your body in general It's time to walk away because your health is way more important because you have a future and you want to have the best future possible with everything intact. Now, we had Jade Jones on the other day. You know, double Olympic gold in taekwondo. But now she wants to be a world champion in boxer. Any advice for her just before I let you go?

Yeah, I know, Jade. She trains really hard and I think she's going to do very well. And that's it? You're not telling her anything else that she needs to do. No, why would you give away your secrets? I think she's got all the experience. She's a very experience in combat sports. She's got to listen to her coach,

keep learning, keep improving, and she's become a world champion. If you put your mind to it, anyone can achieve anything, I think personally. There's some great words from Chantel Cameron. Listen, good luck for the fight on Saturday. We'll all be keeping it out. That's Birmingham against Michaela Mayer.

Tomorrow I'll be hearing from Manili Thompson who experienced ovarian cancer at just 19, but she says that experience has changed her life for the better. Looking forward to speaking to her. Looking forward to having you back with us tomorrow, 10 a.m. right here. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Greg Jenna.

I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. And we are back for a 12th series. Everyone in that film is wearing their own pants. We're joined by comedians like Kyle Smith Bino and Desiree Birch. Can't see how this would go wrong. We'll meet many medieval saints. Motivational speaker saint.

We're like a sort of Madonna head mic on. We're doing a history of underwear. Plus there's loads more. You're Dead to Me. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously.

Every episode I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voice, through the story of Homer, the Iliad and The Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith Bino joining us.

And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcast. Thank you. Bye!