Woman's Hour - Author Maggie O'Farrell, Allegations against Gregg Wallace, Marina Costa-Jackson

Episode Date: November 29, 2024

When the Stammer Came to Stay is award-winning author Maggie O’Farrell’s third book for children. Based on her own experience of living with a stammer, it's a story that celebrates differences and explores the resilience of children as they learn to navigate new and seemingly frightful challenges. She talks to Anita Rani about the book and the impact of her stammer on her life.Gregg Wallace is to step away from presenting MasterChef while allegations of historical misconduct are investigated. Wallace's lawyers say it is entirely false that he engages in behaviour of a sexually harassing nature and MasterChef's production company Banijay UK has launched an investigation. To discuss the story, Anita is joined by Katie Razzall, the BBC's Media Editor. Anita also speaks to Emma Bartlett, employment lawyer and partner at CM Murray, to look at some of the issues cases like this raise in terms of reporting allegations of inapproprate behavior in the workplace.In Nigeria scammers posing as doctors are convincing women that they have a “miracle fertility treatment” guaranteed to get them pregnant. BBC Africa Eye Reporter Yemisi Adegoke explains how these scammers target infertile women and fuel an underground trade in black market babies. Nigeria’s Miracle Baby Scammers is on BBC iPlayer.The Italian-American soprano Marina Costa-Jackson's acclaimed portrayals include Floria Tosca at the Lyric Opera of Kansas City, Mimi in La Bohème at Los Angeles Opera, and Carmen with Nashville Opera. She has now made her Royal Opera House debut where she is currently singing the role of Giulietta in a new production of The Tales of Hoffmann. She joins Anita, live in the studio, to discuss the role, how she handles performance anxiety, and to sing the aria L'amour lui dit la belle, accompanied by Christopher Willis on piano.Presented by Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. I'm delighted to tell you that Maggie O'Farrell will be telling us about her beautiful new children's book, When the Stammer Came to Stay, and overcoming her own stammer. It's Friday. We have an operatic sensation. Soprano Marina Costa-Jackson is making her Royal Opera House and Woman's Hour debut.

And yes, as well as telling us about her role playing Julieta in the Tales of Hoffman, she'll be singing live. Also on the programme, we will be discussing a new Panorama investigation exposing a cruel scam taking place in Nigeria involving fake pregnancies and baby trafficking. And the news has been swirling about Greg Wallace and the allegations of inappropriate sexual comments, which his lawyers say are entirely false. has been swirling about Greg Wallace and the allegations of inappropriate sexual comments, which his lawyers say are entirely false.

To look more broadly at some of the questions stories like this raise, we're also going to be speaking to an employment solicitor about how you can deal with inappropriate behaviour in the workplace. So I'm asking you this morning, how have you dealt with situations that have made you feel uncomfortable? Were you able to call it out? And what happened? How did it play out for you? Get in touch with the programme in the usual way, with all your thoughts and opinions.

The text number is 84844. You can email us by going to our website. You can also WhatsApp the programme on 03700 100 444 and follow us on social media. It is at BBC Woman's Hour. But first, as I've just mentioned, you may have heard Greg Wallace is to step away from presenting MasterChef while allegations of inappropriate sexual comments by 13 people who worked with him across a range of shows over a 17-year period. Wallace's lawyers say it's entirely false that he engages in behaviour of sexual harassing nature and Masterchef's production company, Banerjee UK, has launched an investigation. Well, to discuss what lies behind Greg Wallace's decision, I'm joined by Katie Razzle, Razzle Media Editor for the BBC. Welcome, Katie. So what do we know about these allegations against Greg Wallace? Well, yes, so as you're saying, this is about his behaviour on set

and claims that he behaved in an appropriate way. So we're talking about language of a sexualised nature, comments, for example, that include making lesbian jokes constantly, according to a woman who worked on a travel show with him. She says he regularly talked about sex, about domination and spanking. Another woman who worked on a different BBC show said in 2019 that he'd constantly say inappropriate things to her that made her feel uncomfortable and she refused to work on the show with him afterwards. She and a colleague also told the BBC that Greg Wallace came out of a bathroom topless in front of them once during a shoot and asked them to take his coffee order. Another woman who worked

on a Channel 5 show said when they were traveling together by car, he took out his phone, showed her photos of a woman in her underwear. It does go on. I mean, there are lots of claims. A female worker on a BBC show who said he wasn't wearing any, told her he wasn't wearing any boxer shorts under his jeans. A male worker on MasterChef who said he regularly said sexually explicit things on set. And I have to say, I've read those things and I don't think I'm going to repeat them at this time in the morning and perhaps at any time. And a male worker who also worked on a different show and some travel shows,

who says Wallace talked about threesomes with prostitutes and said he loved spanking and did that, talked about that multiple times a day. So there's a catalogue of allegations. And as you say, 13 people in all have spoken to BBC News, to my colleagues who broke this story, Nornanji and Felicity Baker. And these are 13 people involved in five programmes across 17 years. And one of them is Kirsty Walk, my former Newsnight colleague. She was on Celebrity Masterchef in 2011. And she says that Greg Wallace told sexualised jokes in front of the crew and contestants that were entirely unacceptable. And actually people have come out since.

So since this story broke yesterday or we could johnson who appeared on the show people will remember her she says wallace apologized according to her after making a joke about rape she said she didn't hear it herself but she was told about it and then many people will already be aware that sir rod stewart just announced this week as the glastonbury legend for that slot he accused uh greg wallace of humiliating his wife penny lanc, when she appeared on Celebrity MasterChef. And he put out a message on social media, Rod Stewart did, saying good riddance to someone he called an ill-mannered bully. And how has he responded to all of this?

Well, he has responded by saying it is absolutely not true. He has said that he has never engaged in this sort of behaviour. His lawyers say it is entirely false and the investigation is ongoing and that he'll obviously take part in the investigation, but he wants to clear his name. So the allegations against him were made as early as 2005. So why has it taken so long for it all to surface now? Well, there is the question, Anita. I would point, I think, to the precarious nature of the industry, the TV industry, in which people working on these shows, they're usually freelancers. Their employment is totally predicated on, you know, if you want to get your job again, you're not going to rock the boat. And these,

you know, a show like Celebrity MasterChef, or indeed we learned this when we were looking at Strictly Come Dancing, these are shows that the same people come back to again job again, you're not going to rock the boat. And these, you know, a show like Celebrity MasterChef, or indeed, we learned this when we were looking at Strictly Come Dancing, these are shows that the same people come back to again and again, but it's freelance. So it's difficult, you don't want to rock the boat and then not get your job next time. And of course, presenters do have an awful lot of power, it's up to management, I'd say, to ensure that junior people are protected. And if those junior people don't feel able to complain, that is a failure of management. And the trade union, BEC2, have talked in response to the Greg Wallace story as it's emerging.

They've said, look, they're concerned about, people who are concerned about where their next job is coming from or maybe trying to establish themselves in the industry, there is a tendency, quite a tendency, not to report or not feel safe enough to report when inappropriate things happen. But it is actually not entirely right to say that the allegations only emerged now, because actually, we've now learned that Greg Wallace was warned back in 2018. Yeah, what happened with that? Well, yes, so a complaint was

raised on the BBC show in a possible celebrities about his sexually inappropriate language and behaviour, as well as aggressive behaviour. And my colleagues have seen the BBC outcome letter, which concluded many aspects of his behaviour were unacceptable and unprofessional. Now, Greg Wallace says that actually in 2018, he was found not to be sexually inappropriate and pushes back on that. I'm just going to read the BBC statement on this. A spokesperson said, we take any issues that are raised with us seriously and we have robust processes in place to deal with them. We're always clear that any behaviour which falls below the standards expected by the BBC will not be tolerated. Where an individual is contracted directly by an external production company we share any complaints or concerns with that company and we will always support them when addressing them. Can you describe

Greg Wallace's popular appeal? Well yes I mean he Greg Wallace he's been a MasterChef presenter since 2005 he's really been a staple in people's living rooms across the nation he's got an MBE and I think the public persona is this sort of cheeky, down-to-earth, charming, funny guy. People love MasterChef and he's been on the programme for nearly 20 years now. So he feels down-to-earth, somebody who's lived a life. Greg Wallace is somebody who dropped out of school. He started working at a warehouse when he was just 15, selling fruit and vegetables. The Covent Garden fruit and veg market in his early 20s, set up his own business.

So he really feels like he's lived a life. Of course, he's not been without previous controversies. And recently, some people did take offence about comments he was reported to have made about his autistic son. And I have to say that within the industry, there has been a whisper of claims around his behaviour on set, but he denies them. It's worth saying that again. He says it's entirely false

that he's engaged in any of this kind of behaviour. We also have a statement from the production company who make MasterChef, Banerjee and they say this week the BBC received complaints from individuals in relation to historical allegations of misconduct while working with presenter Greg Wallace on one of our shows. Greg Wallace is committed to fully cooperating

throughout the process. Whilst these complaints have not raised the allegations directly with our show producers or parent company, Banerjee UK, we feel that it is appropriate to conduct an immediate external review to fully and impartially investigate. While this review is underway, Greg Wallace will be stepping away from his role on MasterChef and is committed to fully cooperating throughout the process. But of course, Katie, Greg Wallace isn't the only male BBC star who's had to step away from their job this year, is he? Well, you're right, Anita, and people will, of course, remember two presenters' names. Hugh Edwards, first of all, News at Ten presenter, who was sentenced earlier this year for making

indecent images of children. And the BBC has been trying to get back some of the salary it handed over to one of its, you know, I think he was, well, I know he was, its most highly paid news presenter. And it wants some of the money back that it paid him between suspending him and him being charged. And it hasn't had any success in that so far as far as I know. That was a huge scandal around somebody who really was the face of BBC News. And the other person I would point out is Jermaine Guinness, the former footballer, Match of the Day and One Show presenter. And he had his contract terminated for allegedly sending inappropriate messages

to a female colleague. And I think I would say that actually, because that was after the Hugh Edwards scandal and many saw the way the behaviour, the way the BBC responded so swiftly to the allegations against Jermaine Genas. Many people saw that as a sign that the BBC was learning some of the lessons from the past. What steps are the BBC taking to tackle all of this now? Well, for a start, the director general, Tim Davey, has banned the word talent. It is an awful word. I'm sure you might agree amita but you know his suggestion is the power dynamic of that kind causes problems but more formally in october the bbc announced details of a review into presenting preventing abuses of power that's in in the wake of the revelations about Hugh Edwards.

And in November, the BBC chairman, Samir Shah, said in a speech that there continues to be a sense that powerful people get away with it. And he's determined to ensure that doesn't happen again and that the Hugh Edwards scandal is a line in the sand, if you like. And of course, it is worth pointing out, this isn't unique to TV. There are power imbalances in many industries still when it comes to how, particularly how women are treated.

But this issue around talent, as people do still call it, even though it's a banned word now in the BBC, does cause problems because, of course, there just is an imbalance there. Katie Razzell, thank you so much for speaking to us this morning um and as you mentioned there katie that it is isn't just within the media industry these power imbalances happen we're going to broaden it uh because i'm also joined by emma bartlett employment lawyer and partner at cm murray to look at some of the issue issues cases like this throw up in terms of reporting allegations of inappropriate behavior

in the workplace and if you have experience of this we'd love to hear from you 84844 is the number to text morning emma welcome to woman's hour um um so these are the sorts of cases you deal with regularly that's right anita um in terms of uh supporting an individual who might be a victim of this type of behaviour, sexual harassment, sexual misconduct. But equally, in order to balance my argument, I also act for employers who might be on the wrong end of these types of complaints. So I'm looking at how the employers can properly get a grip on this. And then from time to time, i'm also an independent investigator into investigations so i can see it from three hats all the angles i'm gonna go i'm gonna go straight to a message that's come in actually it says i have reported inappropriate sexual behavior twice

in my career one when i was really young and one more recently when my boss kept touching me both times i've been let go i won't do it again i need to work um you're shaking your head but that's the fear isn't it i'm so sorry to hear that but that that is the fear and one of the things was uh that you were talking to katie about was well why now why why are people making these complaints now and bringing it out and why perhaps haven't they done it before and it's the fear of not being believed um that can stop people particularly when it happens on a one-to-one situation and it's a he said she said um situation or again as katie said where you've got somebody who is so powerful and invested in the organization and is bringing

in a lot of revenues they just think well who am I compared to that person? Surely they're going to rally around the perpetrator rather than me. From the cases that you've dealt with then, what does it actually take for people to come forward to report this kind of behaviour? It takes a lot of courage, but principally it takes a safe environment for them to be able to do it. And the organisation's culture is so important in that respect. They need to be seen to be taking it seriously and dealing with it in a confidential way. And in light of there's been some new legislation that came in in October of this year, mandatory obligation on employers to take preventative steps to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace. And that has created a new awareness of this obligation on an employer to do the right thing.

It's a legislative requirement. And in doing so, employers have to take reasonable steps. So you will have seen a lot of employers reinforcing that we've got a whistleblower hotline. We've got policy that deals with anti-harassment. And these are the trained people in our organisation who can go and speak to and report this to. So in the first instance, it's awareness. It's a safe space. And then do you want me to talk about the type of evidence people might yeah absolutely yeah what what evidence do you need to hear and just decide if there's a case to be met yeah of course so firstly the individual who is the victim of this type of i say this type of behavior but it spans any type of sexual harassment or sexual misconduct, they need to be able to put their complaint in writing.

Where it's a he said, she said situation, we might therefore want to see, well, what corroborative evidence is there? So did you keep a diary? At what contemporaneous notes did you make of the behaviour or how you felt? And, you know, 20 20 years ago that might have been a paper diary but actually now people might have sent messages to close friends or family to say I can't believe this just happened this has made me feel like this um so the contemporaneous evidence might be in text messages or emails or they might just have invested in somebody so they might have

relatives or friends who might be able to say she told me this at the time there might be other people who were in the vicinity who might have seen an interaction between the two people and they might have noticed that the individual the victim might have suddenly become very embarrassed or had an immediate upset reaction to what has just happened. So rushing out of the room, bursting into tears, that sort of thing. And so having people who might not have overheard a comment, perhaps, or if it's more than a comment, might not have overheard it or directly seen it, but they might have seen the aftermath. And that's quite important. If it's happened recently, we would be saying, OK, where's the CCTV, for example, and look to see if we've got anything like that. We've had another message in from someone saying, I recently submitted formal grievances in my workplace regarding race discrimination, sex discrimination and harassment and was dismissed three weeks later for not fitting the company culture.

Currently trying to resolve this through an employment tribunal, which seems to amplify the patriarchal society we still live in. How often do you come across that, Emma? More often than you'd care to hear, to be honest. It does happen where an employer's immediate reaction to somebody who is genuinely bringing a complaint of discrimination or harassment and then they end up being disciplined whether it's disciplined but making malicious allegations that rarely happens it's normally okay we'll find something else to get rid of you.

Why do employers do that? Because well mainly because there is is potentially a lack of objectivity in the person who is considering the grievance, the complaint or investigating it. And so you need somebody who is sufficiently objective and senior that can. So if the allegation has been made against somebody who is very powerful in an organisation, or perhaps right at the top of the organisation, you need to have somebody investigate that in an objective manner and be able to gainsay the evidence of the person that is being accused. And you need that person to not fear losing their own job as well. Exactly. So if the person who is powerful, so if we were to say, OK, these allegations are against the chief executive of an

organization um the people that are more powerful than him might be there or her um might be the collective board of directors um or shareholders but who is going to investigate in that organization is it going to be somebody else on the board is it going to be a non-executive director or is it going to be you know you instruct an independent investigator who's then going to come back? So even if the independent investigator has findings that something inappropriate happened here, this is what it is. Then you need somebody in the organisation who's going to be able to say the CEO cannot carry on in that manner and it has to change or they have to go. And what are the consequences if they ignore the behaviour? Are there any?

Yeah, there are. The consequences are huge. You obviously get employment tribunal proceedings and with the new legislation, the mandatory duty, if the tribunal finds in favour of the complainant, apart from compensation being awarded of the complainant, apart from compensation being awarded to the complainant, which could be injury to feelings, it could be personal injury if somebody has had a more physical reaction to what's happened, could be loss of earnings if they've had to leave that job or they've been sacked, or it could be career loss if it's people whose reaction

has been so devastating, they cannot work again. But the Tribunal also have a new power now to increase the award by up to 25% if it's sexual harassment and the employer hasn't taken reasonable steps to prevent it. Further, there's legal costs on the employer but also the Equality Human Rights Commission can intervene now as well they have powers to um uh take enforcement action as well um you have damaged the reputation of the employer um ultimately so you can see why if you're a powerful person in the organization who's being accused why you might do everything to make sure people don't speak up against you

um and so if you've got one person who is too controlling within an organisation, then that's bad for the organisation because their speak-up culture has been lost. Fascinating stuff. Thank you so much for joining us to talk about that. Emma Bartlett there, who's an employment lawyer. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard,

you can find links for support on the BBC Action Line website. Just read out a couple more of your messages. It should not just be down to women to report this. It's the responsibility of all of us, men and women, to call it out. 84844. Keep your thoughts coming in. Now, When the Stammer Came to Stay is award-winning author Maggie O'Farrell's third book for children,

beautifully illustrated and based on her own experience of living with a stammer. It's a story that celebrates differences and explores the resilience of children as they learn to navigate new and seemingly very difficult challenges. Maggie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, it's absolutely our pleasure. Can I ask where you're sitting right now? Because you've got a beautiful view behind you. I'm sitting in my house. Yeah, upstairs.

My daughter's at home from school today and there's been a sleepover and downstairs is so noisy. I've had to come up and find a really quiet spot. Love it. Love a sleepover. Why did you decide to write this book? Where did the story come from? Well, it's funny. I think most, it's often with fiction, you start off in one direction and you think, I'm going to write a story about two sisters who share a room.

And the sisters are very different and the story is going to be about them learning to accept each other's differences. But actually, often what happens with fiction is that the story at some point starts to disobey you and it turns around and it says, actually, I'm not going from A to B. I'm going from A to C or A to D. And actually, I realised that I was writing something very personal, actually. I think in some ways it's one of my most autobiographical works of fiction because I'm writing about a little girl who develops a stammer, as I did when I was about six or seven. What happened? What do you remember about it? It's funny, I don't really, I mean, I think I remember with that kind of weird child logic, that when I started, when I was really little, my stammer manifested as this kind of

repeated sound, the kind of classic stammering. And I remember as a really young child thinking, maybe no one else can hear it. Maybe's just inside my head and then unfortunately uh my classmates some of my classmates started taking the mickey out of me and imitating me and then I thought oh okay other people can hear it which is not so good so and I as a child it was it was very much like that it was that kind of that trapped syllable um and being unable to launch the word and then when I was an adolescent, you know, obviously adolescence is, everything is embarrassing when you're a teenager.

And, you know, being unable to speak is just horrific at that age. And so I kind of swallowed it and I kind of clamped down on it. And instead my stammer morphed into this problem where I just blocked and I had this kind of total stoppage in fluency and I couldn't speak. I mean, I never really put my hand up in class to answer questions. And I see the most painful thing for me was because English literature was my favourite subject.

So when we were reading aloud a novel or we were reading aloud, say, Macbeth, I was never able to put my hand up and say, I'd like to read Lady Macbeth or Banquo. I had to just keep quiet. Well, in the book, there's two sisters, Bea and Min, and Min is the chatty one and they're sort of out there and wants to vocalize everything and it's her that gets this stammer

and you just feel it and she goes within herself but then she has this beautiful older sister who helps her uh own her power um you have sisters who were they the ones that helped you through it how did you get through it who did you speak to it's funny I was I was thinking about this relatively recently and I'm thinking gosh it's so lovely my sister's never ever made fun of me and I mentioned this to my mum and she said oh yes that's because I threatened them but to be honest to be fair my sisters were very supportive. But I think really with the book, I wanted to write about a stammer from a kind of serious point of view because too often, unfortunately, in films and in books, when stammering is represented,

it's always for laughs. You know, we're always being invited as a reader or an audience to look at the comedy and how hilarious it is that this person can't get their words out or repeats the syllable or said strange things or sometimes stamps. Or, you know, stammerers have been known to kind of hit themselves because they're so frustrated and somehow to release the word. And we're always, you know, it's always presented in that way, which I obviously really hate because it's very, very far from amusing to have a stammer. You know, we are as a species, we are wired for communication. We are wired for speech and language.

We're the only species in existence that has that facility. And it's absolutely crucial to every single interaction you have throughout the day. And if that is problematic for you, it is nothing short of a nightmare. So I thought I really want to write about having a stomach which is serious and show people actually what it's really, really like from inside that perspective. Yeah, it's heartbreaking when you're reading it when it happens to her because I instantly related to the younger sister. I thought it was all going to be about the older sister straight away, the sort of quieter, bookish, very tidy girl that I used to read about that I couldn't

relate to when I was a child. But no, it was brilliant. It's about the noisy, messy younger sister. And I was devastated because you see her retreat into herself when she gets this, because obviously she's a child and she doesn't know how to deal with it or know what's happening to her. I've read that you described your stammer as being the single most defining experience of my life. How has it impacted who you are as an adult? Well, having a stammer, being unable to rely on your voice and on your spoken language, it affects you in all kinds of different ways. And it can dictate who you can and can't be friends with. It can dictate what kind of job you can do. I mean, I could never, ever have done a

job where I had to, say, cold call someone. I could never have worked in a call centre. I could never do anything that I had to initiate conversations particularly on the telephone that would have been my tele telephones were an absolute nightmare for me and the day that email and texting was invented I was a very very happy woman I mean my husband I'm 52 and my husband still makes my dental appointments for me because just because I hate doing it makes me very flustered and start to stammer again um so it does it or you could just use it as your excuse to get him to make all your appointments for you. No, he does it very kindly. I just say to him, could you make this call for me?

And it's funny. There was someone, someone was coming around to do some painting in the house. And he said, you'll have to call my wife. And I looked at him and I thought, OK, I know why. He said, my wife does all my phone calls for me. And I thought, okay, I understand. So it does. I mean, and also it has a strange, my stammer is a kind of weird, it has an unerring eye for people that I maybe perhaps wouldn't trust very much. I used to find this particularly when I was in my 20s and I was going on dates, that if I met a man and I would start stammering, I'd automatically think, okay, there's no future in this relationship.

Brilliant radar. Yeah, it's, you know, I mean, I'm not saying, and also, you know, stammering as a child, if you stammer, it gives you, or it gave me anyway, and I'm sure it gives other people a real hypersensitivity to language and grammar and meaning. Because when you're, if you're in a conversation and you're a child when you're if you're in a conversation and you're a child you're

automatically thinking ahead of what it is you you're going to be expected to say or or you want to say and you realize that you can't launch off you see I always have all stemmers have problem sounds one of mine was m b's and p's and e's were really are really difficult for me so saying my name was very problematic for example still is actually sometimes and so you're when you're in conversation you're performing this kind of linguistic um slate of hand in your head and you're thinking well if i want to say that i can't launch off on that letter so how can i flip the sentence can i flip the cause can i clause can i think of another synonym to say that i think you know you're automatically editing yourself at all times. So it does. And I think that's been instrumental in making me a writer, actually.

And also you cannot overestimate, if you're a stammerer, just the absolute joy of writing, the physical act of it and seeing those words and sentences and paragraphs just coming out of your pen with no problem. It's just absolute bliss. Yes. And the joy we get from reading those sentences and those words. Is it known why people get stammers? I don't think it is. I think there are lots of theories, but nothing very concrete. Some people think it's neurological.

There has recently been some research that it is linked to dyslexia. I'm not dyslexic, as it happens, but I don't know. And I had a slight brain damage from encephalitis as a child and a speech therapist. I didn't get speech therapy I had a slight brain damage from encephalitis as a child and a speech therapist. I didn't get speech therapy until I was 40, actually. I self-referred myself on the NHS to do it then. And she was saying, yeah, it could be something to do with the damage I got to my cerebellum when I was a child. But who knows? Nobody really knows. It affects more men than women. It's about 1% of adults had it, 8% of children have it.

So it's a bit mysterious. What happened at 40? Actually, weirdly enough, it was connected to this very programme. What happened? Well, I was talking about one of my novels, and I was being interviewed by Jenny Murray, and I'm absolutely not saying it was Jenny Murray's fault, not at all, but she asked me about a character, and I, for reasons I don't know to myself, I called my character, and I'm going to by Jenny Murray and I'm absolutely not saying it was Jenny Murray's fault, not at all, but she asked me about a character

and I, for reasons unknown to myself, I called my character, and I'm going to have trouble saying it now, Elina, and suddenly she asked me about the character and I needed to start the sentence by saying Elina and I just couldn't do it. And there was this awful long silence, which to me felt like about a year.

And Jenny Murray looked at me over her half moon spectacles and they looked at the producer. And actually I did suddenly think, okay, I can say she, and then I was able to do it. But just that moment on live radio of suddenly blocking, I thought I was going to be sick. So I came out of that interview and I thought, I have to do something about this. I can't carry on like this. And I've never had speech therapy. It wasn't really a suggestion. It wasn't't really a possibility I believe it is now which I'm very glad to hear I think I've heard now that if you start stammering often teachers or parents or doctors can intervene and you get to see a speech therapist but in the 70s and 80s it wasn't

really a thing at all so anyway I self-referred myself at 40. And amazingly, I got sort of, I don't know, five sessions on the NHS and I saw this wonderful therapist and she was great. But so, yes, in a way, it was Woman's Nail that spurred me to do that. And we've had you back on to tell us the story. The message of the book is about the acceptance of stammering and not to be something that you feel shame around. But how long did it take you to come to that understanding well it was a really long time I think I had been operating for most of my life on the sort of um the logic of my

adolescence which was that you have to hide it you have to pretend it's not happening you have to try and avoid letting people know that this is happening um and somehow I'd got kind of stuck in that mindset I think and one of the really interesting when i went to speech therapy when i was 40 um i imagined i don't know why i thought it was a bit like physiotherapy and we do lots of kind of exercises and vocal exercises and things but actually it was more like therapy therapy and we talked a lot about why i stammered and when and she asked me to keep a stammering diary and one of the incidents I told her about was going into a chemist and trying to pick up pick up which is hard to say pick up a prescription and the chemist had asked my name and I suddenly couldn't say it and the chemist had kind of

tittered and said oh have you forgotten your own name and I just was so kind of embarrassed by it the whole interaction and I thought I'm 40 years old i can't pick up a prescription you know this is awful i told my speech therapist this and she said but why is it so terrible why don't you look this person in the eye and say i have a stammer if somebody laughs at you you know look me in the eye and say i have a stammer and she said i want you to practice that say it back to me now and so i said to her i'm sorry i have a stammer and she said no you're not to apologize you just say i have a stammer. And she said, no, you're not to apologise. You just say, I have a stammer. And that was a really revelatory thing for me

because I thought actually, I don't think, you know, I don't know if it's true of children particularly, but I think, you know, if people do laugh at you when you stammer, it's not really coming from a place of cruelty. It's coming from a place of ignorance. They don't really know what's going on. And I don't think people, if people know and if i i do say that to

people now and they're absolutely horrified and they say i'm so sorry of course please you know take your time and that's the magic thing you have to say to a stammerer i find if you have a stammerer in your life please please don't ever finish our sentences don't ever suggest a word don't ever finish our sentences. Don't ever suggest a word. Don't ever try to second guess what it is we're trying to say. Just please look us in the eye and say, I see that you have stammer, you know, just take your time. And if somebody does that to you, it's like a key turning in a very rusty lock. Suddenly the speech comes out and it's all okay. So I think getting it out there and saying, you know, I have a stammer, I have a problem with fluency. It's it's a kind

of magic spell in a way for me anyway I've had a message from someone saying my son has a serious stammer he's had it all his life he's a university lecturer at times he has sung his lecture or written on the board he has lived with it and learned to cope and thrive um there's a really important message in this beautiful book um which is is one of the lodgers in the house. So the two sisters live in a house with three really cool lodgers and this beautiful house. And one of the lodgers says, think of your stammer as a friend, not an enemy. Remember what it gives you. What has yours given you? Well, I think it's given me the desire and the ability to write i really think it has and i think

also it does make you very aware of what other people might be going through i mean this you know i would never say that i would want to write a book with a message i always feel that's very high-handed but if this book does have something that i would like readers to take away it would be that all of us every one of us is struggling with something you know we all in the book the little girl visualizes her stammer as a little kind of ghoul that sits on her shoulder and steals her word and she realizes through the through the book that her older sister also has a girl it's a different one um it's called a dibbock in the book and i think we all have those don't we and some of us um are challenges or differences are more visible than

others but what we all have to do is to just be kind to each other. And, you know, because we don't always know what other people are going through. It's beautifully illustrated by Danielle Jelenka Teranzini, who also worked with you on your first two children's book. How does that relationship work? I mean, it's, it's timeless. You know, the book feels timeless. Well, Danielle is an absolute genius. She is such a brilliant illustrator. And, you know, it's a really interesting process for me writing a book with a collaborator, which I love, because, of course, you know, writing novels, my full-length novels,

it's obviously a very solitary job, which I love also. But writing a picture book with Daniela, it's really interesting because I write the words first and I have to remember to carve out spaces for her to tell the story so in a sense i i want to be able to hand the baton over to her narratively so she can take the story into the pictures and she does it so fantastically you know and the girls she actually the girls uh she worked from a photograph of me and my sister so uh well i got quite a fright, actually, when I first saw Min, because she has all this wild curly hair.

She's got great hair. She has great hair. That's all down to Daniella. But I thought, wow, she actually looks more like me than I do. But it was my own fault, because I was the one that gave Daniella the photo. But no, the pictures are absolutely, absolutely exquisite.

And very quickly, it's been a while since you've been a Woman's Hour, but I have to ask you about the success of Hamnet. For those who don't know, a fictional account of William Shakespeare's son, Hamnet, who died at the age of 11 in 1596, and it's focusing on his parents' grief. But it's been made into a stage play that transferred to the West End, and it's now being turned into a film.

We're very excited, starring Jesse Buckley and Paul Mescal. How involved have you been? How excited are you? I mean, I can't even say it's a dream come true because I never even thought it was really possible. But filming has finished. It's wrapped. I co-wrote the script with the director, Chloe Zhao,

and I was on set quite a lot. So I saw a lot of the action happening. And again, it's just, it's very, very surreal because part of me was so incredibly excited to be on a film set. It's not something I do every day at all. And then the other half of me would I'd suddenly hear one of the actors say something and I think, oh, I wrote that. And that was a very strange. It was a really strange, strange feeling.

But I can say that both Jesse and Paul are absolutely incredible. They do such an amazing job and they they both just light up the screen. And I really I can't wait for people to see it. No, we can't. We can't wait. Great actors bringing to life a great book. Maggie O'Farrell, wonderful to speak to you. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you. Come to London. Come and have a cup of tea with us next time. Definitely. I'd love to do that. Thank you. And When the Stammer Came to Stay is available now. And it really is.

It's delicious. That's the way I'd describe it. Lots of you getting in touch with your messages about what we've been discussing on the program. I'm 60 year old woman who's worked her whole life. I don't think I've ever worked somewhere where there hasn't been some form of sexual harassment. I feel ashamed now that I've never complained, but I felt it is normal and something I've come to expect. Interestingly, I always support my children to react differently. Well, hopefully that's because culture is changing.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now this week, it is the BBC's Scam Safe Week. You might have seen some of the coverage across the network. Scams are something we've covered a lot in the past here on Women's Hour. We've talked about phone scams, online scams, and even romance scams. But a new documentary by BBC Africa Eye caught our attention. It's called Nigeria's Miracle Baby Scammers and it exposes a shocking scam targeting infertile women. Fraudsters posing as doctors convince Nigerian women with fertility issues that they have a miracle treatment guaranteed to get them pregnant. The women are tricked into parting with hundreds of dollars,

duped into believing they're pregnant and delivering babies that are often trafficked. Joining me from Lagos is BBC reporter Yemesi Adegoke, who investigated these scams for the documentary. Yemesi, welcome to Woman's Hour. How do they work? I don't think this word scam is strong enough. I saw this documentary and I was so shocked at what I watched. But just explain to us what is actually going on here. So essentially, these women are often part of couples that have struggled to conceive for many, many years. They are introduced to the scam a lot of the times through WhatsApp groups, Facebook groups, by other people that have successfully

concluded with this treatment. They meet these fake doctors and nurses who will give them medication that makes their bodies change. So their stomach starts swelling. They appear to be pregnant. They dissuade them from going to doctors for ultrasounds or any kind of medical testing. They also tell them that it's likely that their pregnancies will last for a long time and that they can only be induced by these specific doctors. No other doctor is going to be able to deliver this child. So sometimes these pregnancies go on for up to 15 months, and at which time the scammers will then call these people and say, it's time for you to deliver your child. They'll be given a drug. Some women have said they've been given a drug that makes them sleep. They will wake up with a cesarean like incision on their bellies and be handed a baby. On the other side, there is the woman who has had her baby trafficked or sold.

Let's start with, I guess, the desperation and the ability to be duped into believing that you can have a baby like this comes from somewhere. So just to understand a little bit about the culture around this, what is the stigma around not getting pregnant? Is there a stigma around not getting pregnant in Nigeria? So there's huge pressure to conceive in Nigeria. And most of the time, whether or not the issue or the challenge is with the women, it's seen as the women's responsibility to have children. And this can lead to abuse in some cases, ostracisation. Some of the women that we met in the film said that their in-laws and family friends had been pressurising their husbands

to go and find another wife. You know, there's a term that's sort of used to label women. They're called sort of a tree without fruit if they're not able to give birth. So there is a lot of stigma. I think one of the reasons why this scam works so well is because of the sort of religious element. Nigeria is a very religious country. And the type of Christianity that's practiced here is one that really focuses on the idea of miracles. So there's this idea that, well, if miracles are possible, then why can't this happen? Why can't there be a pregnancy that lasts for 15 months? So it's a lot of the societal pressure and then this combination of

this particular type of Christianity that also sort of leads people into believing that this can be possible. And I mean, it's a really powerful documentary. I'll be thinking about it for a long time because like I said, Yemisi, I just think the word scam, when you think of scam, you think of financial fraud. This doesn't feel like a scam. This feels like one of the cruelest crimes that is taking place because it really does prey on women's vulnerability on every side. The other thing that we saw, you actually go into a raid on a brothel. And just tell us about that and what happens to some of those young women who are pregnant and where these babies are coming from, the trafficked babies.

So that was the big question that we sort of set out to answer here. We knew that this scam was happening. And in most cases, these women do end up with a baby. So and, you know, we know these babies are not theirs. In the film, there's a woman that had done a DNA test with one of the with the child that she had, and it was conclusive that this was not her biological child. So the Commissioner for Women's Affairs in Anambra State, where a lot of the film was shot, she made the link for us and said that a lot of these babies either come from women that are working in brothels some of them have been

trafficked there or you know baby factories where some girls or young women are held against their will and have their children sold so when we went on a raid on that brothel, in that brothel rather, we saw a lot of young vulnerable women there. It was really a disturbing space to be in. And there is the possibility that if any of those women had been pregnant and given birth, that their child could have ended up in a scheme like this.

And back to the actual scam and the women who are desperate for a baby, who believe that this miracle is possible. Some of these, as you mentioned, they are convinced that their pregnancy can go on for 13, 14, 15 months, which is not medically possible. So how do they rationalise this? What did you make of that? I mean, I think it's a combination of how desperate they are. And also because most of the time they've been introduced to the scam by other women who have been through this process and have ended up with a child. And then again, the religious element, they really do

believe that it's a miracle. You know, we met some of these women who had even gone to sort of traditional doctors, had ultrasounds, and the doctor will say, there's no baby there. And they'll say, well, this cryptic doctor told me that it's actually in my back or it's in my waist. It's not in my womb because it's a miraculous pregnancy. But these are educated women, right? These are educated women. That was one of the most interesting things about the scam is that most of these women are quite well- do because it's expensive it's not something that your average person can can afford uh one of the women we spoke to you know her and her husband are both university graduates they still believe in

this it's um the emotional and psychological toll on these all these women involved it must be huge and it's heartbreaking to watch and like i I said, very shocking. How difficult was it to get them to speak out about this? I mean, if you watch the film, you see that most of the contributors are anonymous. And that goes to show how difficult it was to get people to speak to us, to trust us. There was that sense of, for the women who had come to realize that this was a scam there was a sense of embarrassment of shame of wanting to sort of protect themselves from being ridiculed uh issues around conception infertility they're such sensitive subjects anyway and talk less of situations like this so it was really. It took a lot of conversations with us on the team,

trying to ensure these women that it's not about, you know, making fun of you. It's about trying to expose this and to potentially protect more women from being harmed in this way. And what about the babies at the heart of all this? You know, the vulnerable, faultless, blameless babies that are being taken from one woman and given to another. What are the authorities doing about all of this? I think that was the hardest part for all of us, you know,

seeing these children so vulnerable and so innocent. The authorities that we spoke to are taking quite a hard line against this. The Anambra State Government, you know, they're sort of instituting raids a lot. They're trying their best. But I think in order to really sort of clamp down on this, it's about dealing with the initial stigma that causes women to believe this in the first place. It's about sort of, you know, normalising adoption or other means to motherhood and stopping the sort of pressure on women. And that pushes them to become so desperate that they would fall for something like this because until that's sort of tackled even if the authorities raid everywhere there's still going to be that need and that's you know that's not going to go anywhere yeah yeah missy

thank you so much for joining me to talk about it this morning um it's uh it's on iplayer and it's called nigeria's miracle. Scandal, I would say. 84844. On to my next guest, the Italian-American soprano Marina Costa Jackson's acclaimed portrayals include Floria Tosca in the Lyric Opera of Kansas City, Mimi in La Boheme at Los Angeles Opera, and Carmen with National Opera. She's now made her Royal Opera House debut where she's currently singing the role of Julieta in a new production of The

Tales of Hoffman. And she joins me. She's in the studio. We're going to hear you sing in a moment. But first, welcome. Well, thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here. It's wonderful to have you here. Tell us, you're going to be performing in the Tales of Hoffman. Tell us about the plots. Tell us about the opera. So it's a very interesting opera in that we see the portrayal of Hoffman as he goes through his experiences with love. So in Act One, we have him falling in love with a mechanical doll. And it kind of portrays the naiveness and innocence of love.

And then we have act two where Hoffman meets his true love. So that true passionate love where you fall deeply in love with the person and with their well-being. But she ends up dying. And then in the third act, you have... Spoiler. Sorry, spoiler alert. In the third act, you have my Spoiler. Sorry, spoiler alert. In the third act, you have my character, who is a courtesan. And she's been contracted by the devil to trick him into selling his soul for some beautiful jewelry.

And so I'm not that nice of a person in this. But you kind of get the jaded love here with Hoffman. So you see him go through his three loves to ultimately decide that at the end, his fourth and final love is art because you can't really make beautiful art without suffering. How are you finding performing at the Royal Opera House? It is your debut. Yes, it felt quite daunting to begin with. But everyone at the Royal Opera is so incredibly kind. And it really has been a wonderful experience. Well, you say it's daunting. You have spoken

previously about struggling with performance anxiety. Yes. So tell me about that. We were talking to Maggie O'Farrell about her stammer. Tell me about how yours manifests your performance anxiety. Well, I love what Maggie said, actually, about what her therapist said about accepting her stammer. Yeah. And being able to really be able to just say, I have a stammer. I love what Maggie said, actually, about what her therapist said about accepting her stammer. Yeah. And being able to really be able to just say, I have a stammer. I love that as well. It was just so simple, wasn't it?

Yes. But also profound. It is profound because I found the same thing for myself in my stage fright. I used to look around at other singers. And, of course, you see the glamour of opera, but you don't see the mental, what's happening on the inside. And so for me to finally be able to accept that fear and the physiological response of fear that I felt and accept that it was okay. I felt like, why is everyone looking so confident? And I'm feeling like I'm dying on the inside. And being able to accept that it was just part of the performance aspect of art, right?

That we have this physiological response of nerves and your brain doesn't know the difference between nerves and excitement. So choose excitement. Accept the fear that it's, you know, it's just, you know, that physiological response, but then choose to feel, instead of nervous, excited. As long as you're prepared, why not? Yeah, I always say you've got to ride it, ride that energy. Yes. How bad was your anxiety, though? not? Yeah, I always say you've got to ride it, ride that energy. Yes. How bad was your anxiety, though?

You say physical. How bad did it get? It was to the point, especially in my early career, my mother, she's beautiful, five foot nothing Italian from Palermo, of all places, who would just really be my regulator. She would hold me by my shoulders and she would tell me, like, there'd be times I really physically couldn't even stand up. And of course, you have to stand up when you're on stage and be able to portray these characters in this beautiful music. And she would look me in the eyes and say, Marina, believe in yourself. You can do this. Believe. And she would really regulate me through kind of putting me in this, hypnotizing me into this, you know, I'm have courage I'm going to do it even though I feel like I'm dying I couldn't physically stand

at times and what's mama's name Emilia Emilia Costa and it was because of Emilia that you started singing you and your sisters you have two sisters yes I have two sisters there were three girls in the family and we all three of us sing and it started with the youngest sister she was singing stuff like the three tenors in the home that That's what we always had Maria Callas in the home. Did you enjoy performing as a child? I did not. No, absolutely not. I was the middle child. And I had my younger sister who sang from the age of 11. She sounded like she was like Charlotte Church. She was a wunderkind. She was just so great and had this beautiful voice. Then my older sister tagged along and then they said, Marina, come sing.

And we would get up for Italian parties and, you know, family gatherings and get on the table and sing something. O sole mio, something like that. And I just would feel like dying. It would really taint, you know, holidays for me because I knew that mom or somebody else would ask me to get up and sing. And I would just I would be in the bathroom at times you know nearly being sick and trembling and I couldn't enjoy my time with my family because I was so daunted I felt so scared for that time that I had to get up Marina how did you end up becoming an opera singer then why choose this profession I know it sounds like a crazy thing to do but I finally you know Ginger my sister Ginger Costa Jackson she just made her debut at the Royal Opera. What a great name as well. Ginger, beautiful.

Yes. So, yeah. Yes. And so you were asking. Yes. How did you end up doing it? How did I end up doing it? So my little sister sang.

Ginger is singing everywhere. Miriam is as well. And I just waited until I was 21 in the States. We specialize after two years of general education. And so I finally couldn't resist the call to opera. Oh, bravo, Marina. My goodness, me, the power. Magnificent. Of course, you needed to do that as a profession. How are your nerves? You know, it's gotten so much better over the years. The thing about performing is you have to do it a it's gotten so much better over the years the thing about

performing is you have to do it a lot and so you have to get used to it my body's more used to it but yes there's always that physiological response you have to accept it as part of it great advice and practice practice practice yes keep doing it absolutely lean into the fear and when's the next production the next performance will be december 1st and it's the final performance of Hoffman. So we need to get there. Wonderful. Thank you so much for just gracing us, that wonderful, powerful talent of yours,

on a Friday on Radio 4 Magnificent. Tomorrow, Weekend Woman's Hour, we'll be here. We'll be looking at the growing number of young women whose social drinking habits are leading to alcohol-related liver disease. We'll also hear from Barlow and Bear, or Emily and Abigail. They're the youngest and first all-women songwriting duo to score a Disney film with Moana 2. And if that's not enough, we've got music from teacher-turned-jazz saxophonist

Kim Cipher to join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. What happens when at-home DNA tests reveal more than you bargained for? My birth mum was still here. She's still alive. Six new stories of reconnecting and rupturing families. I just couldn't believe it. I had a sister after all. Lives upended and long buried secrets. I then wrote back and said, look, the ripples from this will be enormous. What do you want to do?

The new series of The Gift with me, Jenny Kleeman, from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.