Woman's Hour - Author Victoria Hislop. Women's FA Cup. Diagnosing ovarian cancer. Singer Charlotte Awbery

Episode Date: October 29, 2020

Author Victoria Hislop discusses her new novel ‘One August Night’, the long-anticipated sequel to her award-winning work, ‘The Island’. Why has she waited so long to revisit the hugely popular Cretan world and characters she created?It's the Women's FA Cup this weekend between Everton and Manchester City. Everton's Captain Danielle Turner and Jude Morris-King , volunteer Treasurer at the Man City Women Official Supporters Club talk to Paulette about what's it been like for the game under lock down and about the possible long-term impact of Covid-19 on the women’s game.Plus a study at the University of Cambridge, as part of the CanTest collaborative, has revealed that a blood test already available to GPs in the UK is more predictive of ovarian cancer than previously thought. We hear from Cancer Research UK’s head of early diagnosis Dr Jodie Moffat and science teacher Fiona who was diagnosed three years ago. And singer Charlotte Awbery tells us about her journey from waitressing to being a guest on the Ellen Show, and now creating her own music after an impromptu appearance in a YouTube video went viraLPresenter Paulette Edwards Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast with me, Paulette Edwards, on Thursday the 29th of October. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. I'm Paulette Edwards. And on the show today, a blood test that is already available to GPs could help in the early diagnosis of ovarian cancer. Why is this such an important development? And do you fancy a trip to a Greek island? Well, you can do that through Victoria Hislop's new book, One August Night. It's a sequel to her first novel, The Island.

So why has she waited 15 whole years to take us back to that world? Also, if you were going for a train or a bus and someone stuck a microphone under your nose and told you to sing, what would you do? That is exactly what happened to Charlotte Aubrey and it changed her life. And you need to get the booze and the snacks in for the Women's FA Cup final on Sunday between Everton and Manchester City. How's it been for the teams during the pandemic and what's it going to be like at Wembley Stadium with no fans to cheer them on. Let's start off then with this. Ovarian cancer is difficult to diagnose. The symptoms can sometimes be confused with those for other conditions and diseases. A simple blood

test which looks for a protein known as CA125 which can be done by your GP could make a crucial difference to how early the disease is diagnosed and therefore how successful the treatment is. Dr Jodie Moffat is Cancer Research UK's head of early diagnosis but before we talk to Dr Jodie we're going to speak to Fiona. Her ovarian cancer was diagnosed with a blood test. Good morning Fiona. Good morning. So let's talk about the symptoms then that led to you being diagnosed with ovarian cancer in 2017. Well it started when I was about 54 and I thought I was going through the menopause so I was beginning to find cramps in my abdomen. I was on holiday and decided to actually go to see the GP just to

get it checked out because obviously menopausal symptoms can be a bit tricky at times and I wasn't sure what my options were. So how did it get picked up by your GP? Well, fortunately, she said, I'm sure it's not anything nasty, but I'll take a blood test and we'll go from there. So within a week, she'd called me back. She said, it is raised. That doesn't necessarily mean it's definitely ovarian cancer. There was cancer in my family anyway. But I need to send you for a scan. So I went for a scan about five days later. I was very lucky. There's a sort of like a cottage hospital near us in Saffron Walden. And she very rapidly, the radiographer, referred me on to Addenbrookes in Cambridge and within literally a matter of weeks I had the full diagnosis and was undergoing surgery. Did it help that you could have the

test done in the surgery by your GP then Fiona? Oh hugely I can't I actually do not know where I would be if I hadn't had that initial test. Because I think a lot of the time you go into the GP, sometimes they think it's IBS. Sometimes they think it's other conditions. You know, they put, I don't mean they put things off, but I think if my GP hadn't instigated that first off, it would have been several months down the road before I'd have got diagnosis.

I was quite a late stage. I was stage four. So therefore, you know, I don't know where I'd be right now. I'm going to bring Dr. Jodie Moffat in. She's a Cancer Research UK's head of early diagnosis. Good morning, Jodie Moffat in. She's a Cancer Research UK's Head of Early Diagnosis. Good morning, Jodie. Good morning. Can I ask you how important it is then that GPs can do the test? I think this study just proves how crucial it is that GPs have access to this CA125 test and that they use it in those patients in whom there could be ovarian cancer. This study is really exciting because, as you say, although this test is already used,

it really reinforces how important it could be and found that it was 12 times more likely to predict ovarian cancer than we previously thought. As well as that, they found that actually patients who had raised CA125 levels also went on to develop in that subsequent year other types of cancer. So it's really important that if a patient has CA125 levels they have a scan, they don't have ovarian cancer but that the GP remains alert to other types of cancer in that patient too and takes steps to rule that out.

So you say the test is already used then Dr Moffitt what is it already used for? So it is already used in primary care because it features in the NICE guidelines which provide advice to GPs about what they can do to help diagnose cancer earlier. But what we think is that there's a real opportunity for this test to be used more often. We know that not all GPs are referring to those NICE guidelines when they're making decisions about how to manage patients. And that, as Fiona said, it could also perhaps, there's a chance to use it sooner in patients. So perhaps maybe on the first visit, rather than waiting until the patient has come back two, three, four times before they request this fairly simple blood test. And if it does show that there is a raised level of this protein, then there's onward investigation with the

ultrasound, as Fiona had mentioned. And why is ovarian cancer particularly difficult to diagnose? Ovarian cancer is often associated with quite non-specific symptoms. Things like that feeling of bloating, that feeling of fullness, of feeling like you don't want to eat anymore, that you've lost your appetite. And also abdominal pain and pain in the pelvis, which it can be difficult to pin down and can also be a feature of other diseases and conditions. But it is really important that if you're at home, you notice those things. They're kind of persistent. You notice them a few times a month. Get in contact

with your GP. Speak to them about it. And you could even ask them about this CA125 test as well. And then hopefully that GP will be able to work with you to work out the best course of action for managing those symptoms. I've read that the test is actually more useful for women over 50. Why is that in particular? Exactly. That's what this research has suggested, that really over 50-year-olds are likely to benefit the most from this test. We have to remember that cancer incidence increases with age anyway. And so that's probably a factor there. But that's not to say that women under 50 shouldn't be investigated for symptoms. It's just that this result on its own might not be enough to really gauge what's happening and that further tests and investigation might be needed. So how significant then is this breakthrough would you say? Will it

save lives? I think this has really reinforced the value of a fairly simple CA125 blood test and I think if we can see patients coming forward with their symptoms, GPs using this test readily in the patient who have symptoms that could be ovarian cancer. We will hopefully see more cases diagnosed early when the chances of a successful outcome are so much higher. Can I go back to you, Fiona? So why is this test, would you say, been so crucial for you? You said that you had cancer in the family is what you said yes yes i think i although i have cancer in the family i wasn't really alerted to it so um i think the idea of actually using the ca-125 from i don't know the age of 50 onwards as in connection with say a smear test, just to do a double check on a yearly programme, that would save a lot of heartache, a lot of grief for families. And it would also, I think overall, reduce the cost on the NHS because you'd immediately be catching people in their first stages rather than their final stages.

And obviously the cost would be greatly reduced. What do you think about that then Jodie? There is a lot of interest in how we might find ovarian cancer earlier in patients who do not have symptoms and that of course is called screening and there have been studies that have looked at CA125 in a screening context, so patients without symptoms. And the evidence is a bit unequivocal on that one. There's no evidence to suggest that it's actually going to save lives and reduce deaths from the disease. This study was very much about those people who have developed symptoms and are coming forward to their GP and it's shown that actually it is more predictive

than we previously thought could actually be more helpful than perhaps had been realised and it's really important that that evidence is taken into consideration with the next iteration of those NICE guidelines and that we see more GPs using those NICE guidelines to guide their decisions around those patients who come forward to them. Can I go back to you, Fiona, and just ask how you are? How are you at the moment? I'm absolutely fine. I've just got a dodgy knee, actually. Oh, I can't do anything about that for you, Fiona. Oh, well, I'm glad that you're all right and you're on half term because you're a teacher. So that's a bonus as well, isn't it?

That's right. That's right. And I think the other thing is that I'm still being screened for CA125 every three months. And it's reassuring. I know it's only a guide, but it's reassuring when it's not raised in any way. Well, that's great. Carry on looking after yourself, Fiona. Thank you very much. And Dr. Jodie Moffat from Cancer Research UK. You're listening to Paulette. This is Woman's Hour. And if the names Anna, Maria, Manolis and Andreas and the island of Spinalonga sound familiar to you, then you've probably read author Victoria Hislop's debut novel,

The Island, which spent 25 weeks in the Sunday Times bestseller list and then went on to sell over 5 million copies worldwide. Victoria went on to write other successful novels, but waited 15 years before going back to Crete in her new novel, One August Night. And Victoria is going to tell us about that. Good morning, Victoria. Good morning. Good morning. Why was it time for the sequel and only now then? Well, I think back in march um rather sort of surprisingly i suddenly began to think again

of those people who were isolated on the leprosy colony of spin alonger and to kind of see some similarities between this completely out of the blue situation that we all found ourselves in. The isolation from our families, the fear of a disease. And it sort of weighed a little on my mind that there were these resonances. And at the same time, like all of us, I was suddenly inside my house, couldn't travel, you know, restricted landscape. So I looked at that book and reread the last chapters and thought, I think there are some unfinished stories here. Characters who, you know, were still alive at the end of the story, still living out their destinies.

But I hadn't really explored them fully when i wrote the the island 15 years ago um so for me it was a i suppose a process of of going back inside my imagination i couldn't go out to greece to research uh so i just went right back to the time 15 years ago when i was writing it and got those characters cure of this disease for everyone. And I think I wanted to reinforce that as well. So I hope readers who read the first one will find some kind of comfort in this sequel too. Victoria, I'm reluctant to give anything away,

but in this extract, Manolis, a key character that you may remember from The Island, is grieving the loss of a lover and he takes to the dance floor. With several carafts of ouzo inside him and grief weighing on him like a boulder, he stretched his arms out like an eagle and began to turn. The movements were personal, but the tradition of the Zébekiko was known to everyone. It was a dance that should only be performed by a man, and only by a man with grief to express. As the musicians played and the insistent beat thumped and repeated and thumped again, Manolis revolved slowly in a trance-like state, his eyes unfocused. The dance gave him the opportunity to reveal the darkest corners of his soul.

The movements were restrained, tense, controlled, and yet they opened a window onto his heart for anyone who looked and cared to understand. With each turn he expressed the agony he felt for the woman he loved, for the tragedy of her death for his wretched cousin languishing in a prison cell for his uncle and aunt lamenting the fate of their only son for Sophia, who had lost both mother and father for Yorgos, who mourned his daughter and for Maria, who would be weeping over her sister

Everyone watched, mesmerised his daughter and for Maria who would be weeping over her sister everyone watched mesmerised Victoria, the novel is rich with descriptions of Greece and I've been lucky enough it's a Greek culture, I've been lucky enough to go to various islands, various of the Greek islands, so we've got the bouzouki music

we've got the rebetiko, we've also got this whole, the dance as well and you're saying that Manolis performs this zybeki ko. Why is this dance only performed by men? I think women do a good job of this dance. and do it. But in Greek society, which is still culturally, I'd say, very conservative, it is simply not the thing to do. And she's crossing a boundary into male territory. But I'm quite sure that women do this dance in private. It's something that perhaps will change. But as I say, you know, there is this sort of conservative element certain things that women aren't supposed to do which amuses me but at the same time watching a man do this dance is a is a really moving experience and I've never found it quite so electrifying when a when a girl you

know breaches the protocol let's say. That's. So it's set in the 1950s in Greece to coincide with a cure for leprosy, which was discovered in 1957. What was Greece like at that time, then after being occupied by the Nazis and six years of civil war? Well, it was very simply very poor. People didn't have very much. And it was a time of sort of rebuilding and reconstruction. But in Crete today, which is, I think, why I love this island so much,

you can still be in places in Crete, which are very timeless. And I've, you know, been up into the mountains to various villages. And you really have no idea whether it's the 30s, the 40s, the 1960s, or the, you know, the 2000s and 20s. It's very, very timeless. And I think the effect of that period of occupation and civil war that took place in Greece has really made people very strong. And it's wonderful actually to see a simple life that is very sort of rich in benefits. You know, people survive on very little and survive very happily. You know, they still grow their own vegetables. You know, I still see elderly women, you know, driving a donkey up the hill with their firewood.

And they're not complaining about this. This is a lifestyle which, you know, gives them great sort of satisfaction and um and joy so yeah i think you know crete for me is a one of those timeless places where you find people with a very sort of philosophical attitude to life and uh you know a simplicity that I think sometimes we've lost in our own, you know, more urban lives. But, you know, for me, when I was researching this book 15 years ago, it was not a very arduous thing to actually imagine what life had been like in the 50s. You know, you still can see many of the same things now as you could I think back in those days so the picture that I paint is something that you can still go and see yourselves.

Victoria I remember when I went to Crete spending a day on the island of Spinalonga with my sister who was very hungover at the time and wasn't taking much notice of anything at all but the whole leprosy the whole you know kind of underneath this story was pretty poignant for me and I was amazed to discover that an average of 600 people a day will be diagnosed with leprosy now so there there's no vaccine, but it can be cured. Why is it still so prevalent then? Well, the sad truth is that there is still this terrible stigma attached to leprosy. It's unlike any other disease in the world, where if there's a cure, people immediately grab the cure. Fantastic, they get better. And that's the end of the sad story of it but with leprosy there's always been this sense that it is a curse of some kind and people even now in parts of the world

where you know there's illiteracy and lack of education the people who see that they have the symptoms fear that they'll be cast out of their village or their society. So what they'll do is hide the fact that they've seen these early signs and they won't come forward for any kind of treatment. And the result then is that the disease takes hold of the body and it develops and the kind of longer term consequences happen like the loss of fingers and toes and blindness can take place but all of that is unnecessary if they come forward or they're they're actually diagnosed early so yes it's true there are still you know many hundreds of thousands of people in places like india and bangladesh parts of africa um that still have this this problem with getting people to come forward

um you know and stigma i think in many ways you know that was one of the reasons um people kind of found something in the novel the first first novel, is that stigma is a disease in itself. You know, it is something that attaches to certain diseases and cultures. And, you know, it's always something that needs to be eradicated. And going back to the book then, Victoria, if I can just do that for a moment. Do you think this book stands alone? Do I have to have read The Island to appreciate One August Night? No, I don't think so. I mean, I specifically wrote it so that any of those really important details from the first book will come through. So you could pick it up from scratch and you know you you're introduced to all the

characters um and yet not in such a way that if you've read the first one you'll go oh i know all this so i i hope um it will be you know enjoyed by people who haven't read the island and uh certainly for those who have it will perhaps bring back some memories of that first book but no i think it definitely stands alone. It's made me want to go back and read The Island now. So thank you very much for that, Victoria Hislop, author. Just a little bit of Greek Ireland, if the pandemic is stopping you from travelling. Just to let you know then that new book from Victoria Hislop, One August Night, is out today. Coming up then, how have the teams been getting ready

for the Women's FA Cup final between Everton and Manchester City, which was postponed earlier this year? Well, Everton's club captain, Danielle Turner, will tell me how pet lifting has helped and Jude Morris-King, treasurer of Man City Women Official Supporters Club, explains how she has kept their fan base throbbing. And don't forget, if you miss the live programme, you can catch up by downloading the BBC Sounds app.

Search for Woman's Hour. You'll find all our episodes waiting for you there. And do get in touch with anything that we've talked about that you'd like to give your thoughts on today and any other programmes as well at BBC Woman's Hour on today and any other programs as well at bbc woman's hour on twitter and instagram or you can email us via the website next time you are rushing for the tube be aware that the journey could change your life especially if a man sticks a microphone under your nose it's every singer's dream to get spotted and get the chance to shine

charlotte o'bry didn't shy away from the mic your nose. It's every singer's dream to get spotted and get the chance to shine. Charlotte O'Brie didn't shy away from the mic. Is there something else you're searching for? I'm falling In all the good times I find myself longing for change And in the bad times I fear myself I'm off the deep end

Watch as I dive in I'll never meet the ground Crashed through the surface Where they can't hurt us We're far from the shallow now In the shallow, shallow In the shallow, shallow, shallow In the shallow, shallow

We're far from the shallow now Lovely. So good morning, Charlotte. How does it feel to hear that? Hello, good morning. Oh, it's lovely. Really, really lovely. I mean, it's mad, but it's...

Well, it was all happening and then obviously the pandemic hit. So, but I'm just... I've been working on an album at the minute. So hopefully next year everyone will be able to hear my own material, which it's all good. It's exciting. Wonderful. So take us back to what happened then on the underground. So I was literally on my way to meet a friend and then this crazy guy ran up in front of me

and asked me to finish the lyrics. And I'm a singer anyway, so I did. I didn't really think much of it. Luckily it was Shallow, which was already in my set that I'd been doing for sort of different parties and stuff like that. And yeah, I just sung, really. I didn't think loads of it. I just thought, really. I didn't think loads of it. I just thought it was...

So then you walked away then, and what happened after that? Oh, I think Charlotte's disappeared. We'll see if we can get her in just a moment, get her back in just a moment to have a chat with her, because the story's magnificent, and it will make you feel a little bit more relaxed on the tube and that's never a bad thing. Let's go to this then. Our Lionesses have been doing some serious

roaring for women's football. So what's the last few months done for the sport and how are the teams getting ready for the FA Cup final between Everton and Manchester City at Wembley on Sunday with no live fans supporting? Danielle Turner, Everton's club captain,

and Jude Morris-King, volunteer treasurer at the Man City Women's Official Supporters Club, are both joining me now. Good morning to both of you. Can I start with you, Danielle? Good morning. So first of all, congratulations for getting to the final. How did you feel when the season was delayed

and everything just went out of the window? Yeah, thank you. First of all, obviously, it's a great achievement for us as a club getting there. But yeah, obviously, back in March when the league stopped and the pandemic hit, it was all a bit strange, really. It was a difficult time for us all. You know, we're so used to training in a team environment. And then this hits and all of a sudden you're spending the best three or four

months training at home on your own and it's really difficult because we were training then not knowing what was happening with the league and if we were going to go back at all and if we were going to finish it and then I think it was about May time they decided that they were going to end the league for that year and it was kind of a bit of relief really because it's hard to motivate yourself when you don't know when you're going to be coming back but yeah obviously we got the news in May that they were to end the league but luckily they've decided to continue last season's FA Cup because we've got all the way to the final. Yeah so Danielle what's this about pet lifting you say that kept some of your fate?

Yeah so obviously when we were at home, not a lot of us have a lot of gym equipment at home to do all the weightlifting. So a few of the girls were using the dogs as weights. So Simone especially, she's got a pug, and she was using her pug as weights, just trying to be creative as possible, really. I've got a German Shepherd, so it wasn't quite as easy for me I couldn't use her um so yeah I think she's a bit

too big to lift but it's just all about trying to be creative with our workouts and then luckily the club were really good they sent us a lot of uh gym equipment and and kettlebells and bands out that we could then use but it was just all about being creative and imaginative before before that and what about keeping morale high because that's a whole different thing isn't it yeah it's difficult because you couldn't see your teammates you used to seeing them day in day out and i think zoom became our best friend like it did it did for a lot of people so we we set up, we did team yoga over Zoom and then a few of the girls set up a team core club over Zoom as well

and just try and keep in touch really. You know, the club were great. The club would do regular quizzes as well every week. The club physio would do those and then the club would bring us, each department would bring us every single week just to check in so the club are fantastic in doing that but yeah i think as i zoom was everybody's best friend let's just have a chat with jude now morning jude congratulations as well to you for reaching the final so you're volunteer treasurer at the man city women's

official supporters club what's it been like for you to, because normally I suppose you'd have activities that you'd organise for the Supporters Club, but you wouldn't have been able to do that over the last few weeks and months. Yeah, morning, Paulette. Thanks for inviting me on. Yeah, it's been really hard as a fan as well. A lot of us, we go to every home game,

we go to every away game. We've traveled in Europe. So it's almost like having a big chunk of your life just removed. So we've, as Danielle said, we've taken to Zoom quite a lot as well. Normally our face-to-face meetings that we do with our members or quiz nights, we've moved on to Zoom so we can still engage with everybody. We have a lot of our members who may live on their own or they come to games on their own.

So we wanted to make sure that we kept that engagement because, you know, a lot of people, they're only sort of outlet for entertainment. So we're really conscious about that, especially during the middle of the lockdown. So yeah, Zoom has been, you know, the sort of our lifeline really. But yeah, lots of quizzes.

When the games started back up again, when the season started, again, when some of the matches were being televised, we'd do a watch along. So again, through Zoom, we'd invite all the members on so we could watch the game together, so we can have a bit of a chat beforehand, you know, half time, do a bit of a raffle, a giveaway. And then obviously at the end of the game, there's a bit of a bit of a review how we thought the game was going. But we've done a lot on social media

as well lots of quizzes and competitions on twitter um we we went over our 5000 twitter follower um in the middle of the pandemic and in the lockdown so you know we're really we're really proud of what we're achieving um in trying to reach out to to our fan base and what has all that done for your spirit as a community then, would you say, Jude? It's definitely keeping the engagement there. I mean, we've had a lot of people come and thank us and say, you know, we really appreciate all the hard work that we're doing

in the Supporters Club just to try and keep that momentum going as well. You know, it's been hard, but everybody's really looking forward to, definitely to Sunday, and more looking forward to eventually when fans are allowed back in the stadium, obviously in a safe environment as well. And that is a big thing for you then, Daniel, as a player.

How does it feel to play in an empty stadium? It is bizarre, it's strange I think obviously having the fans there it gives you that extra bit on the pitch so I think that's something we've had to adapt to as players, you've got to find that

extra bit within yourself as a team and motivate yourself that way because obviously we've all learnt in the past six or so months that football isn't the same without the fans. And we do miss them greatly. So, yeah, it's just kind of having to adapt. But it is strange.

And obviously, Sunday, it's going to be a massive, massive miss for us, you know, playing in such a big stadium like Wembley. With it being empty, it won't quite be the same. But we're sure we'll all feel the spirit and we can hear them all through the telly that they'll be shouting through the telly at home so I'm sure they'll all be

supporting us at home. With their snacks of course So Daniel let's talk about the FA's new strategy then to get more women and girls into football because there will be some little lioness cubs somewhere now, looking at the real prospects of playing in Super League. You'd have loved that, wouldn't you?

Yeah, definitely. I think growing up, you know, for me, it wasn't those opportunities that weren't always there. There weren't many girls teams around. I was lucky that I did join a girls team when I was nine, but there wasn't many opportunities and there certainly wasn't as many opportunities as there is now. And it's just great to see because obviously the game is growing year after year and you want to see that growth continue.

And with all these opportunities now in schools and, you know, I didn't have a girls team in my school and I wasn't allowed to play with the boys team so um yeah so now that there's so many opportunities for girls and we want to then bring that next generation of players and as you say the lioness is through and because as I say the game is just growing every single year and hopefully that continues. Jude how did you first get into women's football? You've actually said it's more exciting than the men's game. I got into it probably around 2012, just before the Olympics. But I think just touch on what Danielle was saying there, actually, about getting the youngsters up. As a supporters club, we've always wanted to really drive the women's game as well.

And we're really proud that we sponsor, we're the shirt sponsors for Tameside United girls under 11's team. So it's the third year that we've done the shirt sponsorship for them. And it is really about just getting more young girls into football. but I think that kind of leads me into with the big events like the Olympics that really saw a big interest in women's football it's where I really

started to take a serious interest in it Team GB did really well and then the World Cup in 2015 and then the World Cup again in 2019. We've seen England progressing really well. We've seen Scotland in their first World Cup. And it's just been great to see the numbers grow.

But yeah, I think my first England game, they played a Euro qualifier in Salford Reds rugby stadium, which is just down the road from me. I think that was about 2012. So we thought we'd go along and we absolutely loved it. It's very much a family-friendly environment as well. The cost of the tickets are very cheap. It's much more affordable to take your family um to a women's game um and and also there's more interaction with with the players i'm sure it won't be in a post-covid world

but pre pre-covid at the end of the game you'd quite often be able to go down to the side of the pitch and the players will come over and you can have a picture get an autograph um and there's very much that interaction between the fans and the players, which makes it a lot more personable. And it's just something that I've just fallen in love with. And can I just ask you quickly for your predictions for Sunday? Danielle, what do you think? Score.

Oh, I'm going to go. I said last night on a supporters event, 2-0. So I'm going to stick with that, 2-0 to us. And Jude? I'm going to go 3-0 to Manchester City. We're the holders of the cup, so we want to retain it. We'll see what happens. Danielle Turner, Everton's club captain,

and Jude Morris-King, volunteer treasurer at the Man City Women's Official Supporters Club. Thank you to both of you. Wish you both well on Sunday. And just to let you know that you can see the match live on BBC One. Kick-off is at 2.30 and commentary on Five Live as well. So then we are going to go back to this magnificent story of the woman who decided not to dodge the mic,

but to face it when she was travelling on the underground. So Charlotte Aubrey, we lost her on the phone. I'm sorry about that, I lost you then. Charlotte, we've got you back and that's all that matters. It's wonderful. Can we just talk about when you went viral? Because you said, you know, you had this conversation, well, you sang to this man,

you popped the microphone in front of your face, you just sang it to him, and then you thought nothing else had happened. What did happen next then? Well, the guy that actually came up to me, he put the video onto his own Instagram and somebody had taken it from his Instagram and put it onto Twitter, which I was unaware of at the time because I didn't actually have a Twitter. And then my friends were phoning me saying that it was going viral on Twitter. And then at the time, I was on the way to fly out to New York

for a quick five-day trip with my friends. And when I landed in New York, it was viral and people were recognising me. So it was... I was mad. It was unbelievable. It was good, though, but it was scary at the same time. So how did you feel then? It was surreal.

I bet. How did you feel when you were invited onto the Ellen DeGeneres show in America? That must have been pretty spectacular for you. It was. I just couldn't believe it. I just could not believe what was going on. It sounds mad but it just felt like it was a dream.

I couldn't believe it was happening to me. And then the next thing I'm on air and then I'm singing Shallow and oh, it's just, it was mad. It was absolutely brilliant, all of it. But you seemed to me as if you'd rehearsed that moment. Had you? Had you thought, I am going to

be famous someday. I am going to be standing where people can see me singing, a bigger audience. Have you thought about that ever happening? Yes, yeah, definitely. I believe in universe and I put it out there what I want. But, you know, I'd always dreamed of being somebody and being an artist and doing my own music

because I've always done covers and I've always been doing weddings and parties and stuff like that. But you always think, oh, will it happen? But in my mind, I wanted it to happen and I could sort of envision it. But then when everything started sort of going viral and then I was on Ellen and then it just seemed, it seemed unbelievable that it was happening. And then the pandemic and things changed. So how were you then? Quite a few performers came to a complete standstill, didn't they And then the pandemic and things changed. So how were you then? Quite a few performers came to a complete standstill,

didn't they, during the pandemic? How was it for you then, Charlotte? Well, me, along with loads of singers, musicians, artists, everyone, it's been a tough time for everyone. I've not worked since because obviously you can't at the minute but I've just used this time to do my own writing and just be creative really with working towards my own songs and my album and but yeah it's been I mean it's not been a great time but I think you know the whole

world we're all in it, everyone's in it together. So I'm just being positive and just, you know, as I say, just being creative and doing lots of writing. And I'm also trying to learn the piano. Oh. So I haven't the guitar, but the guitar I've given up with for a second. But, yeah, the piano is next on my list. So you tried

main talent shows on the telly in England. How did they go for you, Charlotte? Well, I never got through on any of the shows in England. I tried The X Factor, Britain's Got Talent, The Voice, but I never even got past producers.

I tried for years since I was about 16 and yeah, I just never got got past producers. I tried for years since I was about 16. And yeah, I just never got anywhere with it. But I still went every year. I never gave up. But it just never happened for me. It's incredible, isn't it? So you've already released a single of your cover of the song Shallow.

What are your plans now? So I'm working on my album at the minute and I'm looking, I want to get a single out as soon as possible. So I'm just working out what one I'm going to release first and then there'll be an album next year following the single. So it's exciting, it's exciting. And I just, I hope people sort of like my own music. Have you heard of Clodagh Rogers at all, Charlotte?

Pardon? Have you heard of Clodagh Rogers, a Northern Irish singer? She was around in the 60s and 70s. No. You remind me of her. Do a search on her because you really remind me of her. Yeah, especially in that white suit. You look gorgeous in it.

Thank you very much. What's her name again? Clodagh Rogers. It's spelt C-L-O-D-A-G-H. Clodagh Rogers. Clodagh Rogers. Yes, you do remind me of her. I'll look her up.

Lovely. It's been really nice talking to you. Looking forward to that new music coming out then from you, Charlotte. Thank you so much. And thanks for having me on today. Wonderful. Sorry that we got disconnected. I don't know what happened there. Oh, it's fine.

It's absolutely fine. And just before you go, can you just tell us what's inspired this new album then? Is there just a little thing that's inspired your new album? I've been working towards an album for about two years. There's been personal things that have happened to me. I've looked at my own friends and just things that have inspired me

when I've been on holiday writing. It's been things that have sort of happened in my life that I'm just putting into the album. So, yes, it's all good. All gravy. Wonderful. Lovely to talk to you. Thank you very much. Best of luck, singer Charlotte Aubrey.

Thank you very much for joining us on Woman's Hour. And thank you for all your tweets and emails about today's show. On the subject of ovarian cancer, Carol got in touch. She said she had the CA125 blood test done in 2011 after three visits to the doctor. That got the other tests and the treatment going and I'm still here to tell the tale, she says. Why is it only now being heralded as a lifesaver? It's worried me that the test was there all along and hasn't been used as it could have been.

JJ's got in touch. In my case, it took seven visits to my GP before a blood test was offered and that only happened because I was lucky to see a locum who was a gynaecologist. I survived, This is an anonymous message. As one of your interviewees said, I think we were lucky because our female GP was sympathetic to my daughter's period pain problems and sent her to the specialist. And while the cyst is not cancerous, I think that if we had not had that early referral, things could have worked out in a more negative way. We also spoke to Victoria Hislop. The author has just released her new book, One August Night. Sandra says, in the late 60s, one of my teachers came back in September after spending her holidays in Greece. She taught us a Greek traditional dance, usually done by men in white tights and pom-poms. We

performed at our local Eisteddfod and won. I don't think the judges had seen anything like it. We also performed for various organisations locally in Newport, South Wales. To this day, whenever I hear Greek music, I break into the steps. We loved it. Thank you very much for all your messages, your emails and your tweets. Tomorrow, how do we ditch our shame? Comedian Grace Campbell has written a book, Amazing Disgrace, about growing up feeling shameful about sex rejection, mental health and jealous tendencies. Grace and psychotherapist Gabrielle Rifkind joined Jane to discuss how we can negotiate with ourselves and work on getting rid of our

shame. And the femme fatale, the crazy cat lady, the girl next door, writer and performer Annika Harry, has come up with 50 tired tropes for women in her book Lady Sidekick. She'll be joining Jane tomorrow to discuss how women have been pigeonholed for years into a handful of tired and basic characters and how it's now time for change. Join Jane tomorrow for Woman's Hour at two minutes past ten.

Before you go, I'm Miles, the producer of a brand new podcast for Radio 4 called Tricky. This is how it works. Four people from across the UK meet up and without a presenter breathing down their necks, talk about issues they really care about. Sex work is quite complicated for a lot of people

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Like, that's the thing That's not how it works Nobody knows If you knew, you would have done it Discover more conversations like this By searching Tricky on BBC Sounds I'm Sarah Trelevan And for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.