Woman's Hour - Author Wendy Holden. Sexual violence in rural areas. How to make time for yourself

Episode Date: August 21, 2020

Marion ‘Crawfie’ Crawford was a young Scottish trainee teacher who wanted to educate children in the slums of Edinburgh but ended up as governess to a young Princess Elizabeth and her sister Margaret. How much did she influence and shape their lives? Writer Wendy Holden on how she's brought her story to life, in a new novel ‘The Governess: She Came from Nothing and Raised a Queen ’.Earlier this year Rhea, a sixteen year old girl from Shetland, put out an appeal using an anonymous app, to anyone who wanted to share their personal stories about sexual violence. Within 24 hours she'd had more than 60 responses. Rhea, and Lisa Ward, manager of Rape Crisis Shetland, talk about what those stories say about where they live. And in the next in our summer series of How to guides, we discuss the art of stepping off the treadmill and carving out time for yourself. How can you minimise feelings of guilt and maximise bliss moments? What are the best ways to politely but firmly say no? Presenter Jane Garvey Producer Beverley PurcellGuest; Wendy Holden Guest; Deborah Joseph Guest; Louise Pentland Guest; Celia Dodd

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast from Friday, August the 21st, 2020. At BBC Woman's Hour is where you'll find us on social media and this morning we've got some really, really good guests. We're talking in a big chunk of the programme towards the end of it today about how we learn to make time for ourselves. How do you do that efficiently without harming maybe the others in your life? Let's just talk

about how we can just carve out that bit of time in our day, in our week to indulge ourselves. Maybe not even indulge, maybe that's the wrong word, but just be ourselves and be in the moment and do the stuff we really enjoy. Our guests on that item include Louise Pentland, bestselling author and mum influencer, somebody who's huge on Instagram. So she's with us this morning. We'll also talk to the brilliant author, Wendy Holden, whose new novel is called The Governess. And I really enjoyed this. It's about Marion Crawford, the woman who taught the Queen and was then ostracised by the royal family. Something happened, we'll find out what in the company of Wendy Holden a little bit later in the programme. First though, we start

with this. Earlier this year, Ria, a 16-year-old girl from Shetland, put out an anonymous appeal to anyone who wanted to share their experiences of sexual violence. Within 24 hours, she'd had more than 60 replies. I've been talking to Ria and to Lisa Ward, the manager of Rape Crisis Shetland. First of all, I asked Ria why she'd wanted to do this. Well, it started during lockdown. I kept seeing a lot of posts on social media of the Me Too campaign. And I was sitting thinking, being up in the island that I am, I don't see a lot that comes from Shetland. So I sat down and I was thinking what I could do to do something up here.

And that's when the idea came into my head. And I was originally going to do it just a few people that I knew stories. But I thought that there'd be a lot of other people that would want to share their stories that's when I decided to put out just the anonymous text message to everyone that responded and I only expected to get maybe 10 or 15 responses at first and when half an hour came I had over 40 responses and that's when I messaged Lisa Rape Crisis for help. Did you know Lisa or did you know of her? Yeah I am in a volunteer group at Rape Crisis called B. I started off as a volunteer group I was one of the first members as I've worked with Rape Crisis for quite a while and it's a group of between 14 to 25 group of volunteers and we just work along rape crisis and raise awareness and have different things we'll make might make posters or have exhibitions or just anything to really

raise awareness in Shetland. Do you feel that in your part of Britain there's a reluctance to acknowledge the issue to pretend in fact that it doesn't exist at all? Yeah definitely being in the community that we are it's quite safe in general and everyone kind of takes that and brushes anything that they hear about sexual assault or sexual violence kind of brushes it under the carpet and if they do hear a story about it they think that it doesn't happen up here they kind of brush it to the side because it's such a small community. The fact that you actually got quite a response what does that what does that make you think? It was quite shocking to see, really, because I knew that there would have been a lot more than I expected. But it's how much I got in such little time that was quite...

I only had the post up for about 24 hours. And within then, I only got about 66 responses. And just to be clear, what did the post say? It was just asking, saying that I was going to do a post to raise awareness on sexual violence and asking people to share their stories and that it would be anonymous so I wouldn't know and no one else who was reading the post would know whose story it was. And obviously the anonymity is really important, but do you know whether the people who responded were women, whether they were young women, whether there were any male contributors?

Well, the age range kind of went from, I think it was 14 right up to 26. And then there was both women and men in the story as well. And what kind of things were they telling you? It was a big range. There was people that were saying they were getting groped in the street, groped in the pubs. There was stories of sexual assault on well-known streets in Chatland and there was stories of rape. It covered everything, really. It's depressing, Lisa, but obviously you've got to be really naive to think that this kind of thing doesn't go on everywhere. It's unfortunately, it's a fact of life, isn't it? Yes, well, I wouldn't say that sexual violence is a fact of life in that it's inevitable, but certainly it is very common, much more common than I think the average person is aware of. And in particular,

as Ria highlighted, there is kind of a perception that maybe it doesn't happen in smaller rural communities. And that's possibly because there's less visible things like catcalling in the street, for example. You're less likely to see that, but you're as likely to see other forms of sexual violence here, as Ria's shown. So you weren't surprised by what she discovered, but I guess the real issue is what happens now? I mean, no, obviously Shetland Rape Crisis, it wasn't a surprise to us to read it, but it certainly was very powerful. And it had a big emotional effect, even though we work with this kind of content day in, day out, seeing all those stories, and in particular, they were clearly from young people, they list ages, and it was quite emotional for the whole team here to read those things and to

recognise those patterns of behaviour. In terms of next steps, I mean, there are a number of things we can do to combat sexual violence, and one of them is what Ria's already done. It's breaking those myths and allowing people to be able to pattern and spot about what does sexual violence actually look like. No, it's not a stranger waiting in an alleyway with a knife. It's more likely to be someone you know and trust, potentially a partner, potentially someone within your family and to happen in domestic spaces. And I think that Ria's work here has really shown that. It is depressing. I know that one of the very, very young contributors was only eight. Is that right? And talked about being sexually assaulted in a street in Lerwick.

Yes, I believe that that's the youngest age that was listed. We do know that childhood sexual abuse is a significant problem countrywide and a problem in Shetland. This past year, around about 40% of the service users that we have seen said that they were first affected by sexual violence under the age of 16. So we know it's an issue and it's an issue that continues throughout life. But it is possible to heal from it and it is possible to prevent it as well. Often on this programme, unfortunately, we have to talk about rape and about the woeful conviction rate. Lisa, what's the situation in Scotland? I mean, similar to England in that the conviction rate is low. It's slightly different in Scotland in that we have three different outcomes that you can get rather than just the two. So there's guilty, not guilty and not proven. And not proven is statistically far more likely in cases of sexual violence, sexual assault and rape.

So not proven can be a big barrier to any kind of conviction, as well as that Scotland has corroboration laws. And so acts like sexual violence tend to happen behind closed doors. It's very difficult to corroborate. There's usually unlikely to be a witness because that's how the perpetrator has designed it. So again that adds an additional hurdle in Scotland to conviction. Well is there a campaign to do something about that? But let's start with the corroboration. Surely there are people who want that changed? Yes, there is. And there's been a long going campaign around corroboration, and a number of groups have added to that and fed back to the justice system about that.

And Rape Crisis Scotland and all the associated rape crisis centres, Shetland Rape Crisis included, are a part of the hashtag end not proven campaign as well. And there's a lot of good stats on the Rape Crisis Scotland website about how not proven works in Scotland with regards to conviction rates. Well, I mean, not proven is an interesting one, not least to those of us in England who obviously we don't have it in the courts in England and Wales. Are you very concerned that that might actually lead to people who are indeed guilty getting away with it? Well, we do know it is used disproportionately in rape cases. I think it's something along the lines of 2016-17, only 39% of rape and attempted rape cases resulted in convictions. So that's the lowest rate for any crime. And nearly 30% of those acquittals were not proven, compared with about 17% for all other crimes and offences. So it does

remain a big concern. Yeah. And do juries always understand quite what that means? I mean, theoretically, yes, they're supposed to. But in practice, no, I don't think that that necessarily is understood. It's quite often seen as a way of saying, well, it's hard to prove this thing, but we're kind of believing the victim, but not. So there can be a good intent from a jury picking a not proven verdict. But ultimately, it has the same effect as a not guilty. Nothing happens with regards to the perpetrator. And forgive me, I hope this isn't an ignorant question, but would a rape trial take place on Shetland or would that case be on the mainland?

That depends on the case preparer, essentially. So once your evidence is gathered, the case preparer makes their case and then makes a recommendation as to whether it's sheriff court or high court. We have an advocacy worker. She's quite busy. She works within the courts here, supporting people going through sexual violence, domestic violence and rape cases. The idea is that for more serious sexual crimes, those do go to the high Court, but not always. Right. I mean, that would worry me slightly in terms of getting a fair trial on Shetland with a population of, what, 23,000. Does that worry you? Yes. I mean, that's one of the unique hurdles within Shetland.

I mean, on the plus side, everyone kind of knowing each other, like I say, can add an accountability so you see less things like street harassment. But in terms of barriers to the justice system, you know, your auntie might work in the police station. Maybe the nurse that's doing your forensics is one of your sister's friends. You are meant to not be a part of the jury if you know anyone involved in the case, which I believe can be very difficult up here for the Sheriff Court to manage as well. And then we have some really excellent local media who do a lot of really good work with us in terms of coverage of this kind of stuff. But again, it's very high profile. So there's a number of barriers in Shetland to going the justice system route.

Very interesting. That's Lisa Ward, the manager of Rape Crisis Shetland. And you also heard from the very impressive Ria, who is just 16, doing some really good work there. Next week on Women's Hour, it is Listener Week, which means that everything we talk about has been suggested by you and a really entertaining range of topics. I've just got the list of stuff we're doing next week in front of me now. Everything from women at a women-only university in Riyadh

in Saudi Arabia, to grave tending, to getting women paddling, to lady clan chiefs singing in a choir, and whether speaking proper, that's received pronunciation, does genuinely get you more respect. So lots and lots of subjects

on next week's programme. Still time for you to suggest something. If you're burning to suggest a topic for us next week, please do email us via the website. On Monday, we're also talking about nits. And actually, I suppose I assume that because schools haven't really been happening, surely nits have actually died off a bit.

Well, maybe they haven't. Maybe they're still being gleefully spread across the nation. Any NITS stories for us, any experience of NITS, let us know in time for Monday's programme when we're also talking about everything you ever wanted to know about the pill.

Some of you have already mentioned lots of questions for us about menstrual migraines, endometriosis. But again, still time for you to pitch in. If you have a question for Julia Hogan, lead contraceptive and sexual health nurse for Mary Stopes, and Dr Rebecca French, Associate Professor of Sexual and Reproductive Health Research

at London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. There are expert contributors on Monday Morning's programme when we are talking about the pill, everything you need to know about it, any questions you want answered about the pill on Monday Morning's programme. Now, Wendy Holden is a hugely successful novelist with us now. Good morning to you, Wendy. Hi, Jane. Good morning. Good morning to you. Your new novel is called The Governess. It's a fictionalised account of the life of a woman called Marion Crawford, a trainee teacher from Scotland who went into royal service, apparently slightly against her will, and ended up teaching the princesses Elizabeth and Margaret.

This is an absolutely fascinating saga. I dimly knew the woman's name. I also knew she'd fallen out of favour, but I didn't really know why. And in doing that, I was looking for clues and using them to build Marion Crawford's character. And as you say, the royal world she so unexpectedly found herself in. But I always had this contrast in mind between this young, sparky woman with her woke ideas and this very traditional institution she entered.

So that was always in the back of my mind, this great contrast. Yeah, it is. It's absolutely fascinating. But can we start at the end, actually? Yeah. Because she was, well, she wrote about the princesses. Her book was, I gather, a somewhat saccharine account of being with them and being around them. It was called The Little Princesses.

Why was that so controversial and why did it lead to her being given the elbow well it it was as you say it was very loving and very respectful and unlike other um subsequent um royal lid lifters it shows the family um the royal family in an almost idyllic light they appear as a really powerful, loving unit. I think the reason it was such a problem for the Royal Family was that this was the first of its kind. And I think they wished to encourage a les autres. I think they wanted to stop people in the future writing anything about the Royal Family, which obviously went really well and worked brilliantly because no one's ever written a word about the sins um and of course they to a degree invaded their own uh privacy well exactly exactly absolutely but there were aspects to um i mean as i say i i mind this book um quite carefully for clues and some of the things i discovered which were brilliant to to fictionalize were things

such as it's possible that the queen had what we call now a touch of obsessive compulsion. Because one of the things about Marion Crawford's story is that she was with the royal family during some really seismic historical events. So the abdication, the coronation of George VI, which was obviously unexpected, and the whole of World War II. And she saw and experienced all this, just as they did, but in particular from the point of view of the little girls. And some of these events were obviously for them very worrying.

And one way Princess Elizabeth tried to cope was by setting her shoes very straight every night and her clothes just so, and getting out of bed in the middle of the night just to make sure everything was still there and everything was still straight. And she also had this collection of 30 toy horses 30 toy horses which she would groom and sorry groom groom and feed every night before she went to bed so that this and which is

sort of interesting because it shows you the queen as a vulnerable little girl well we don't how do we know that happened and also i should say it's not unusual in small children to behave in exactly that way, is it? Well, I mean, it's in Corfey's book, which seems to be generally based on her real experience. So, and yeah, absolutely. But it was a very good example of, it was a brilliant thing to fictionalise anyway. So, but I'm pretty sure it was true. Yes. The Queen is quite a composed person.

She does seem quite um keen on on self-control and this seems to have been this is the theme in the in the book in the little princess is this very sweet child this very obedient child this this child who was really willing and and desperate to please and it's a very touching portrayal of her and the the relationship between this very formal little girl and this this sort of very sort of lively young teacher who come from a completely different world it's as well they're a really odd couple but they they they fused right from the beginning they got on right from the start even though forfe never expected to like the royal Family. And it's

that sort of unusual combination that's really at the heart of the book, which made it such a dynamic story to fictionalise. Now you make Marion Crawford, somebody with left-leaning sort of notions, but how do you know that or have you made that up? Yeah, well, I think, as I say, that in the back of my mind all the time I was writing was this contrast between the formal institution of the Royal Family and this woman who came into it from the outside. And what's definite about Corfey is that she was a young student at a time of great political and social upheaval in the 1920s, 30s. And she was of a generation of women that could vote for the first time and train for a career. And most crucially of all, and this is what really drew me into the story right from the start, was on the very first page, she tells us, I never wanted to work for royalty.

When I left teacher training, when I finished, when I got my degree, I wanted to work in the slums of Edinburgh. I really wanted to help help so she had a social conscience she believed in social justice you know she this so this is a very unusual so I thought how did this woman come from that into royalty into this very traditional setup and that did she really make it her business to take the princesses on the underground absolutely she did do that we know that that. Completely, absolutely. There were pictures of it. She, yeah, when she joined the royal family, she felt, she brought all her progressive ideas with her.

She thought her pupils were too removed from everyday life and she wanted to take them out to see the real world. So she took them, as you say, on the tube and shopping at Woolworths. And she even started a Buckingham Palace guide pack. So, you know, this is her legacy, in my view. You know, when people say these days that the Queen has great good sense and the common touch, I think that's Forfey's legacy.

Yes, I mean, it is poignant. And you already mentioned that she was at the heart of some tumultuous events. And, of course, when she first went to do the job, slightly reluctantly, Princess Elizabeth was not going to be the Queen. And then, of course, the abdication meant that she was, to a degree, saddled with that lifelong responsibility. Yes, absolutely. Marion Crawford was pivotal at that time, very pivotal. Completely.

And, you know, it's really interesting because she, as you say, she was completely pivotal. But she's, and the Queen is one of the world's most successful public figures. She's one of the most famous people in the world. But no one's ever heard of her. And what makes a person like that? You know, what makes a figure like the Queen? And the answer is somebody like Marion Crawford. She was a crucial early influence, but no one's ever heard of her. And for me, that made her such a brilliant subject for a novel.

I was looking in an area that no one had ever looked into before and telling a familiar story from a completely different point of view that no one had ever looked into before. So it was a fantastic opportunity. Was she treated very unfairly then? I think she was. It's all very mysterious and well slightly confusing as to actually what happened about the little princesses because strangely enough it seems to have actually begun with Queen Elizabeth who was the mother of Princess Elizabeth who wanted some articles about Princess Elizabeth to appear in the American press. This was in the wake of the Second World War. It was in the interest of bilateral relations. And a magazine called the Ladies' Home Journal was picked to carry these articles.

And a courtier was chosen to write them. Now, Crawford, by that time, had left royal service. And she had this slightly dodgy husband who felt that she should write them instead. And he sent her to ask the Queen. And the Queen said no. And Crawford was happy to shelve the whole thing. But by then, her husband had teamed up with the ladies' home journal editors, who were a pretty unscrupulous couple.

And between the three of them, they manipulated her into writing her own version of events. And it seems that she believed that nothing would be published without the Queen's permission. But this wasn't true, and they published it anyway and it was a huge success but it was a disaster for Crawford he was cut off forever and they never spoke to her again which and I think she did um obviously breach a code of silence but on the other hand you know as I say there was no um nothing particularly heinous was revealed. And they never spoke to her again, even though subsequently plenty of things appeared about the Royal Family. And she must have sat there in Aberdeen where she'd gone to live, thinking, what was it I did that was so wrong?

And she was actually a very, very unhappy woman. I mean, you could say, I guess, made unhappy by what happened. I think she regretted it forever absolutely I mean that was one of the the other things about about her her story arc you know it begins in as a student in Edinburgh and then she joins and and it's an unexpected success her relationship with the family and and all the taking out into the tube and then the war comes along the abdication the coronation or the glamour or the drama and then on and all those things in themselves are amazing but then to end in this way with this sort of terrible tragic um ostracism um and there were she there was also a suicide

attempt um and she bought a house right by the road to Balmoral. I mean, I've been to see it and it's amazing. And the idea of her standing at the window, watching the royal cars going past year after year, hoping that they'd stop, hoping that they'd forgive her, but they never did, just seemed to be such a sort of dramatic opening for my novel. That's what I used. Yeah, I'm not surprised.

It is incredibly poignant. And again, that's real. She did buy that home deliberately. She didn't bought that house. I've actually been to see it. Absolutely. She bought that house and she must have bought it for that reason. It's right by the road. She couldn't have missed it. So, yeah, and that's how she ended her life. And it was 40 years between The Little Princess has been published in 1950 to her death in 1988 and all that time there was there was not a word and nothing after she died nothing no representation at the funeral no not even a flower but um if there was any doubt about her lifelong loyalty to the family and and and how much she had loved them and um after she died uh she well in her will she left a box a little chest with letters that the queen and princess margaret had written to her over the years

they're bound with faded ribbon written in a childish hand all these sort of lovely cards lovely little jokey things and she and she could have sold them anytime uh if she really had been this person who was exploiting um her her royal service but she never did and in her will she left them to the queen and they've gone into the royal archives and whether we'll ever see them again i don't know but um it just sort of if there's any doubt this woman was a completely loyal and completely loving right to the end that's it so it's so poignant. It's such a sad story. And yet when she, in her glory years, you know, she really lived, you know, she had a ringside seat at the greatest show on earth.

So again, you know, the contrast, the glamour, the drama, the tragedy, I mean. I bet you couldn't believe your luck when you found nobody else had written this novel, weren't you? Oh, Jane, I couldn't believe it. And I wrote it at sort of warp speed because I was absolutely terrified

that somebody else would see it, somebody else would do it, because it seemed to me, you me, I couldn't believe it had never been told before. But one of the reasons was that her story's been buried for so long because she's been ostracised. Most official histories of the period hardly mention her. You know, she might feature as a footnote or maybe as a slightly dismissive paragraph. But that's it, you know. And so she's a huge and unexplored area and so a gif of the novelist so buried no more um thanks to you no more i hope not because i mean her story

really deserves to be heard just briefly i mean we could talk forever but i gather there is a slight hint of a thaw because she featured in a bit of film an archive yes exactly she did um when the queen was 94 there was a some material was was released and a previously unseen bit of footage, just a few seconds, which shows Crawfee and the little princesses on board a ship dancing the Lambeth Walk, which is very jolly. And it does make you think, is this a sign that the Queen has realised how much she owes this woman and how unfairly she was treated. And I really hope so because I think it's the least she deserves. Thank you so much, Wendy. Really enjoyed the book. It's called The Governess. It's about the life of Marion Crawford and the author is Wendy Holden.

Now, there's been so many portraits of this woman and interviews about her and really quite breathless accounts of celebrities she's influenced. I'm talking about Glennon Doyle, who appeared on Woman's Hour back in May. And just in case you missed it, Glennon Doyle talking about her self-help guide, Untamed. You can find it on BBC Sounds. Just go to BBC Sounds, search Woman's Hour, Glennon Doyle, and you'll hear her talking to Jenny. This is the self-help book that everyone is absolutely just living their life by apparently. It's about the

need to stop pleasing others and start living. Apparently it's hugely influential and inspiring and it's not unconnected to our next conversation which is about how to make time for yourself. It's the next in our how-to series that we've been doing over the summer on Women's Hour.

My guests are Deborah Joseph, the editor of Glamour magazine, Celia Dodd, author of The Empty Nest and Not Fade Away, How to Thrive in Retirement, and the author and parenting vlogger Louise Pentland. Welcome to all three of you. Really good to have you on the programme. Deborah, can we start with you? Because I think it's fair to say you came the closest to just finding life too much for you. Just give us a glimpse into your life at the time all that happened. What was going on? Well, hi. Firstly, thank you for having me on. I'm very excited to be here. So I started as the editor of Glamour almost three years ago now,

and I came on it off the back of maternity leave with my third child. I'd had a year and a half off with my third child and I came back to a hugely exciting job but also a massive job. You know I was taking a print magazine and turning it into a digital 360 brand and it was really stressful. I wasn't sleeping sometimes I was going to work on four hours sleep at night I had terrible guilt about leaving my two-year-old you know my kids at the time were two four and six terrible terrible guilt my husband and I were arguing almost every single day for the first six months of the job because I felt that my mental load was overwhelmed I was overwhelmed by the idea of pick-ups and drop-ups

and are my kids safe and are they making it to clubs properly and am I there? And I just couldn't cope. I just couldn't cope. I'm not surprised. I'm quite exhausted just hearing about that, to be honest with you. I'm being entirely serious. That was quite a burden.

Of course, most people, Deborah, will not be the editor of Glamour magazine. It's quite a well, it's a privileged position to be in, as you'd be the first to acknowledge, I'm sure. It is. Did you then just have to have a word with yourself and your husband and say, I can't do this anymore? Well, I really consider giving up my job, to be honest with you. I really, really seriously kept saying to myself, is it worth it? Is it worth it for the arguments? Is it worth it for my children, for my own mental health? And I decided I didn't want to give it up because I absolutely love my job. It's exciting. It's thrilling. And I'm ambitious. And I

didn't want to have to make a choice between being a mother and being a career woman. You know, I've always been brought up to believe I can do whatever I want to believe. Sorry, to do whatever I want to do. But also that was the problem. I've been brought up to believe that failure wasn't an option and suddenly I just had a bit of a moment and I thought if I'm going to continue doing this I can't do it all at the same time and something has got to give and I just manufactured this concept in my head I didn't even see a counsellor I don't know where it came from it just came to me one day I just thought I'm going to start consciously dropping balls and live my best 70% life. And I thought I'm just not going to live 100% life. I'm going to, you know, 30%. I'm going to decide what's going in my 70%, what's important to me.

And the rest, which is the 30%, is just going to have to fall by the wayside. OK, that's interesting. It's working. Yeah, it worked for me. I'm now three years into the job and I'm definitely not in the same level of anxiety that I was then, no. All right. Let's bring in Louise. Your top strategies for managing time, Louise. You've got two children, haven't you? Yes. And tell me how you operate.

OK, hello. Thanks for having me. And also, Deborah, I was smiling through when you said you just consciously decided to drop some balls. I think that's fantastic. And I'm going to try and drop them as well. I'm a list maker, which sounds very basic. But lists for me are like my therapy. Because I think as soon as you write everything down and put it on paper or your notes app or wherever you're putting it it's not swirling around your brain and you don't feel like you've got to hold it so tightly in your brain and then you get stressed thinking what am I going to forget what do I need to do next whereas if it's in a list for me I suppose it's a bit like the 70 30 I can see what's really a priority and I put those at the top and then all the ones that aren't that important go at the bottom and if I don't finish the list that's absolutely fine and if I don't finish the list, that's absolutely fine. And usually I don't. Usually the list gets longer as the day goes on. And do you deliberately make sure you have got time for yourself, Louise?

I do now, but it's taken me till this long. I'm 35 and twice now I feel like I've been on the very, very edge of being seriously unwell both physically and mentally because I've pushed and pushed like Debra said failure wasn't an option that's how I felt because I've always felt like you've got to be your best give your best do your best and sometimes the best thing you can do for yourself and actually your job and everyone around is just take time out and whether that's going for a bath or going out with a friend for a day or going on a whole holiday and saying no I'm not answering anything if there's a crisis someone else will just have to deal with it um that's what I do and I think lockdown as well

as much as it's been slightly hellish um it's also been really positive because I thought oh look what happens you can stop the world and get off and it's not the end of the world if you do that no um but you I think for a couple of years you were a single parent as well and that is another well to put it mildly can be a real challenge yeah well there's highs and lows of that um yeah because everything is on your shoulders and if you drop a ball it's your response there's no one else there to pick it up and so that's very difficult but again that's when you find a new support network and maybe it's not your partner anymore but maybe it's friends or family or you just lower your expectations of

what you're able to achieve in a day a week a month and then be grateful for what you have done um yeah just do your best and own what you have done. Yeah. Just do your best. And own what you have achieved rather than being hard on yourself for the stuff you haven't got around to doing, I guess. Celebrate the small wins. Yeah. Well, it's just as well I can do that. Celia, you're not yourself retired. I think it's important we emphasise this.

But you are somebody who's written very powerfully on the subject of retirement. And I guess in some ways there is an assumption that that is when you have all the time in the world. But it's not necessarily true, Celia. No, absolutely it isn't true. I mean, an awful lot of people who are retired now do actually carry on working. I think there's about a million people over 65 are still working. And a lot of people cram their diaries full of all sorts of things.

They're doing part- work. They're volunteering. They're caring either for elderly parents or doing grandchild care. So they're busy. So they need sort of time out in just the same way that hardworking mothers need time out. But there's also retired people who maybe are feeling a bit overwhelmed by they don't know what to do with their time I mean that is as much of a problem and they need to take time out to work out what they want to do and to to find out what their priorities are because when you're retired obviously you feel that time is slipping past and you need to make the most of it, which is another pressure. So life can drift on if you don't actually take time out and work out what you want to do and and realise that it's not you're not being selfish by doing that.

People feel so guilty about it, but it's not it's not a desire. It's a need. Yeah, well, I think that's absolutely right um how do you navigate the slightly complicated waters when perhaps you might be asked to care for younger members of the family um and other people close to you will make the assumption that you have the time well i think you you can say no but i think you say it in a constructive way so it's always no but um so if you don't want to do it or if you i mean most people want to help as much as they possibly can within their own you know but they want to do their own things as well so i think it usually is a no but so you i think if you can be really constructive about how you could help so you know i don't want to do full-time child care but i could certainly help a couple of mornings a week or I could do this or that. I think that's the way to do it. And to be

always try and put yourself in the other person's shoes and think how it is for them. And so, you know, you could then you can work out a way together of how things can work. Without causing offence. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Deborah, what do you prioritise for you? I mean, it's changed slightly in lockdown. Obviously, when you're commuting two hours a day, which I was doing before, there wasn't much time for me at all,

and that was the problem. Whereas actually, funnily enough, in lockdown, I've got time to maybe go for a walk at lunchtime, spend time with my kids do creative stuff for my kids rather than just you know get ready put your shoes on which is how I used to be with them and you know sitting and watching Netflix and drinking wine my husband I think they're my priorities in life now yes um okay um how much wine I mean we've got to be very careful because um well you know you know I do i like you know a glass of whispering angel a

day doesn't go amiss oh yeah i think i've tried that too it was i'm just i can't i can't drink wine anymore no one's interested in whether i can drink wine or not um yeah let's talk about that louise um the idea that um sometimes just by doing things that are i mean i'm going to cause offense here that a man might take for granted a woman gets criticised for. I am talking, I suppose, about sporting activities, stuff outside the home that can be really difficult for women to get to. Yeah. Do you know, I had this conversation with my partner the other day. We have a lovely little village pub and he quite often will, on the way back from the shopping, pop in and just have a pint and just I don't know look through his phone chat to people and I said I never get to do that and he was like but you can if you want and then I thought he's right if I really wanted to on the way back from the supermarket I could

go to the pub I just never ever think to do that and I think I don't I want to believe that we all live in an equal world but I just feel like as a woman I would never just go and sit in a pub and have a drink and flick through my phone because I think right got to get home got to get the shopping in the freezer got to get dinner on got to do this got to do that but perhaps we should all you know take a leaf out of men's books because they've got the right idea it comes home really relaxed from the supermarket every time um of course and he is right there is nothing to stop you. Yeah, there's not. He's not stopping me.

It's me. Yeah, well, yes, OK, let's put that to Celia. Why doesn't Louise just sit down and have a half in the pub? Why not? Well, I think, you know, there were a lot of people, women in my book actually, the same. They felt they should be washing the floor all the time or, you know, doing something sort of worthwhile. And I think the women in my book actually the same you know they felt they should be washing the floor all the time or you know doing something sort of worthwhile and I think the woman in my book just gave herself a

really good talking to and she said and she made herself sit down uh read a book in the afternoon you know reading a book in the afternoon she seemed so selfish and terrible but she made herself do it and then it became a habit so I think maybe giving yourself a good talking to instead of really thinking yeah well why aren't I doing this and if it is possible then then just get on and do it yes and Deborah what about you um I mean I I'm very happy to read a book in the afternoon if I can do and I I've got two dogs I love walking them as much as I can so I become much more selfish with my time actually I'm fully willing to stop there is it selfish it selfish? It's not really selfish, is it? It's you looking after yourself and you need to be there for everybody else.

You're absolutely right. It's about putting yourself first. Beforehand, it was my kids first, then my husband, then myself. And now I definitely am in with where their level is in my life, for sure. Yeah, and you don't mind saying that and you don't... Do you think other people, other women, I guess, might judge you for that? I'm trying, I'm not suggesting I would, but... I think people judge, you know,

there's all kinds of judgments going on. You know, women, there's all kinds of judgments around working women. I've been judged for that. I know some of my friends are judged for not working. I think you can't really worry about what other people think. That was very much part of my 70% life rule. I am just not going to think about what anyone else thinks of me. All I'm going to focus on is what's important to me. And that's what my focus is. Because I think once you start

taking on other people's opinion of yourself, on top of your own guilt and on top of your own issues, I mean, you just don't get out of bed in the morning. I just can't live like that anymore. No, I mean, Louise, you've put yourself front and centre and much of your life is public and I guess that must make some people feel that they can tell you exactly what they think about you. That can't be easy. Oh yes, that's

the absolute joy of the internet there that thinks that they can have an opinion on absolutely everything but I think that, you know, I'm an adult and I can decide what I take on board. And I have confidence that I'm a good person doing my best. So I try to block out those sorts of things. And if it's a really bad day and I don't block them out, then there's always chocolate.

Well, there certainly is. Can I just put my knit theory to you since we're talking about knits on the programme next week on Monday? In fact, I mean, I'm assuming that knits, my kids are older now, but have knits just died off a bit in lockdown? We have been very fortunate, I'm touching wood, not to have had knits yet. But Darcy's at school

and Pearl will be at school in a couple of years so I'm sure we'll have it. But so far so good. Touching wood. Okay, we're all looking for the positive spin on lockdown and mine is today that perhaps knits have been sent packing Deborah anything to add to that let's hope so I mean we've also been lucky we've never had them in this house but you know it's just part of being a mother isn't it it's just another thing to to enjoy in life thank you all very much Celia just a quick word from you

as our more senior contributor. In other words, you're around the same age as me. Do you think that mothers in particular now have it harder than 20 years ago? Yes, I think they do, actually. I think there are so many pressures now. I think social media has put another you know an added pressure on people um but I think yeah that I think the the need to be perfect is

getting more and more and the need to to do everything well to look good as well which I don't think we felt quite so much 20 years ago. All of these pressures to have the perfect everything, I think has got much more and to have the perfect, you know, have perfect children to bring your child up well. Obviously, we all want to do all of these things. But I think the I do think the pressure has increased. Yes. And it's easy to feel overwhelmed by all this stuff. And you heard that from Deborah Joseph, from Louise Pentland and from Celia Dodd on Woman's Hour. Now, Liz in Nottingham tweeted to say, I thought that was interesting, but I always wonder when and why did we choose to work so hard? Very often we place these pressures on ourselves and they live in our heads, she says.

Yeah, probably quite right. Martina says, holy moly, Jane. Martina, language, please. Normally I'm happy just shouting back at the radio when I disagree, but your guest today has peed me off. You asked if women have it harder today than 20 years ago, and she said yes. I think that's a load of cobblers.

20 years ago, my youngest was one. I had a five-year-old and a 14-year-old stepdaughter. My husband travelled extensively with his job and I kept the house going, did the school runs, had my own job. So many balls in the air all the time. The difference now is that self-care is considered OK. Then it was considered selfish. It's fine for career women and mothers to execute self-care now, but it wasn't a thing 20 years ago. That's why 20 years ago, I think it was much harder.

Martina, thank you for that. Catherine says, commenting on today's item, in my opinion, women never could have it all. Speaking as a now retired working woman with three lovely sons, Alison says, I'm enjoying agreeing with the guests on time for yourself. I want to say it's so important to do it, also to role model to your own children, that mum isn't the one always slogging away while dad can go to the pub. Yeah, I thought what Louise said about the pub was really interesting because the truth is, I don't think I've ever been to the pub on my own in my life. But why don't I just occasionally go to my local pub, have a drink and then go home?

I just don't. I don't know why I don't, but I don't. Christine says, I think heavy pressures have always been part of a mother's life. But the feelings of being overwhelmed and expectations of perfection come from different directions. For my mum, back in the 50s, pressures came from society's expectations of perfectly behaved children and relative poverty to find enough money to clothe and feed them. No phones or social media to seek connections and advice and support. Yeah, I think, I mean, social media, it has its knockers, but on the other hand, it can also be a huge help to people.

Jessie says, totally understand where these women are coming from. A positive from lockdown is learning to take a break without any guilt. Back on going to the pub, Kay says, I don't think it's only women stopping themselves nipping in the pub. There is societal judgment as well. And another listener on the same subject, I feel uncomfortable stopping in the local cafe on the way back from school, never mind the pub,

because it's almost always entirely populated by men in the morning. Okay, let's see what else have we got here. Knits, yes, there's some knit chat. Oh, Marion Crawford, let's deal with else have we got here. Knits. Yes, there's some knit chat. Oh, Marion Crawford. Let's deal with the email on Marion Crawford from a listener who says, I know all about this woman and I assume that most Scottish people do. In the piece, that was from June, and Leslie says, in the piece about Marion Crawford, Jane called her the woman you haven't heard of.

Well, actually, she was quite famous in the 1940s, 50s and even later. We heard a great deal about her. Maybe Woman's Hour should rely a little more on the memories and experience of older people. Okay, I mean, you make a very good point, but I imagine for the bulk of our audience, it wouldn't be a name that they'd know

particularly well, but absolutely take your point. Nitz, Christine in Edinburgh, is a mum to two little girls six and seven uh she says i almost threw the knit comb out during my lockdown clear out my little people were in school two and a half days when we got our first i'm guessing of many knit alert emails from the school how has that happened so quickly says christine yes mean, that makes me, reminds me, of course, that Scottish schools are back. And it is interesting, within 48 hours,

the knit letter had gone out. Avril says, I'm a retired primary school teacher and I'm thoroughly fed up with telling people that we do not keep pots of head lice in school to distribute among our pupils. Head lice come into school from the community. I'm sure there are lots of people with head lice. They are just less visible now the schools are closed.

My theory is just going nowhere, is it? From Felicity, in the Isle of Man, we stopped social distancing back in June and children all did five weeks of school with no restrictions. I have three children and two nephews, and by July, they all had head lice again. The true cost of life with no social distancing, maybe, asks Felicity.

From Hannah, I can't believe that the two mothers you spoke to haven't had nits yet. Yes, I mean, I've got to say, I was a bit surprised by that too, and I will happily say that my kids seem to have nits for basically about a decade. I think we were a knit household. I never had nits as a child in Hampshire, says Hannah. But bringing up three children in Somerset, I couldn't comb my daughter's hair in the morning before playgroup, only to comb it after playgroup and find 20 nits every single day.

And I catch them from my children I've got long hair so with ages six three and two it was constant for two to three years going to stay with friends was awful as I was always worried about passing them on which only led to a sense of isolation as a single parent oh Hannah I'm sorry to hear that you felt that way. She does say she's very happy now. It's no longer an issue of my oldest is 18. We'll end with one more on knits from Anne. It would be wonderful if Covid has indeed led to the demise of head lice, saving families a fortune on treatment, not to forget the frustration they cause. My doctor, though, did give me a great tip last year.

Leave conditioner on your hair after washing. Apparently, the conditioner stops the eggs fixing to the hair strands um right okay thank you very much indeed for interacting with us this morning uh we're back of course tomorrow with the highlights of the week edition on saturday afternoon and in podcast form as well and then it's listener week on the program next week uh if you're listening to the podcast, you will get additional material every day, of course, because you're special. But it's all about you next week. Everything on the programme designed by you and suggested by you.

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Power Up. Power Up. To be continued... doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.