Woman's Hour - Award-winning author and former Children's Laureate Malorie Blackman

Episode Date: August 15, 2019

Award-winning author and former Children’s Laureate Malorie Blackman discusses Crossfire, the new novel in her Noughts and Crosses series, which will also be a BBC TV series starring Stormzy.A family must prove whose parent died first in an extraordinary inheritance battle. That was the situation at the high court this week, which resolved a dispute between two sparring stepsisters. But it is also the plot of Dorothy L Sayer’s much-loved novel The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club. So how did the Mistress of Crime come to predict today’s court battles nearly a century ago? We ask Seona Ford, Chair of the Dorothy L Sayers Society and author, Jill Paton Walsh.Composer Errollyn Wallen’s work stretches back four decades and includes 17 operas, numerous orchestral, choral and chamber works, concertos, as well as award-winning scores for visual media. You might remember her music being featured in the opening ceremony of the London 2012 Paralympic Games. She was made an MBE for her services to music in 2007 and has also received an Ivor Novello Award. She was the first black woman to have her work performed at the BBC Proms back in 1998 – and this year she has been specially commissioned by them to write a new orchestral work. It’s titled This Frame is Part of the Painting and it will be performed by Elim Chan, Catriona Morison, and the BBC National Orchestra of Wales on Thursday 15th August.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Malorie Blackman Interviewed Guest: Professor Lisa Avalos Interviewed Guest: Seona Ford Interviewed Guest: Jill Paton Walsh Interviewed Guest: Errollyn Wallen

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to Thursday's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. As the first lawsuit is filed posthumously against the convicted paedophile Jeffrey Epstein, how likely are his alleged victims to get justice? Erilyn Wallum was the first black woman composer to have her work performed at the proms. Tonight, a new orchestral work will be played at the Albert Hall. And the curious case of disputed inheritance

resolved in the High Court this week. How closely did it resemble the plot of Dorothy L Sayers' The Unpleasantness at the Bologna Club. No foul play included. Malorie Blackman, the former Children's Laureate, began in 2001 a series of novels for young adults featuring the Noughts and the Crosses. The Noughts are white and are the underclass, suffering prejudice and discrimination. The Crosses are black and hold the power in

society. She's just published the fifth in the series. It's called Crossfire and there's been a slight shift in the power struggle. The Prime Minister, Toby Turbridge, is a nought. What was it that inspired the original idea of turning racism on its head with the first Noughts and Crosses story. The Stephen Lawrence case, I remember watching a docudrama about the way the Lawrence family had been treated and being so angry and disgusted at that. And it was also, all the time I'd been writing, I was being criticised for not writing overtly about racism.

And so I thought, OK, now I'm ready to write about racism because that Noughts and Crosses was actually my 50th book and so I thought now I will because I before that I didn't want to get pigeonholed as the issues writer and so it was bringing in a number of things that happened in my own childhood and teenage years so the main character in Noughts and Crosses Callum there's two characters Callum Sefi. And a lot of the things that Callum goes through actually happened to me in real life. What sort of things? Things like the first time I

travelled first class on a train when I was 17 and the ticket inspector stood in front of me and accused me of stealing the ticket. Or things like when I remember being in a history lesson and I said to my history teacher, how come you don't talk about black scientists and achievers and inventors? And she looked at me, she said, Laurie, because there aren't any.

And I remember looking at her, feeling absolutely mortified and thinking, well, there must be some, but we certainly weren't being taught about them. And I only learned about black scientists and achievers, inventors, pioneers when I was in my 20s and I found the black bookshop in Islington and just all my money that wasn't spent on rent and food went into buying books so I could kind of educate myself. So it was kind of, it was born out of all of those things. What brought you back to Knots and Crosses? Well, it was inspired by, it's not about,

but it was inspired by current events, basically. It was the Brexit vote, the inauguration of Trump, and it seemed the rise in the sort of rhetoric and the politics of fear and division. Now, in Crossfire, the new book, a Nought footballer, white, obviously, because she's a Nought, is abused by fans. Why were you keen to include that incident now? Because that's been going on for a long time. It has, but we seem to be going round in circles on this issue. And I mean, in Crossfire, what I wanted to do is have sort of newspaper articles scattered throughout it, just reflecting what's going on in current day as a backdrop to what's actually happening with the characters.

And with that, I had my nought footballer who's had enough and just says right I'm I'm out of here because I'm sick of the people kind of making clicking noises maggot noises when like every time I touch the ball and throwing things at me and the abuse and it was again I suppose it was a reflection of um what the number of black footballers are going through, like Raheem Sterling and the four men who were lined up just hurling racist abuse at him. And it was kind of, that went viral. And also what Danny Rose was going through and so forth. So I kind of wanted to talk about, address that. The books are all absolutely full of politics. Here we have the Nought Prime Minister, we have an election for a school head. Will it be a Nought? Will it be a Cross?

How interested do you reckon young adult readers really are in politics? I think they're very interested in politics. I think the mistake that is sometimes made between politics and party politics, but I think young people are very interested in politics. I mean, just look at Greta Thunberg. I mean, things like climate change and animal welfare or housing and so forth, because it affects them, they're interested in it. And I think a lot of people think, oh, but, you know,

teens aren't really interested in that. And that's not been my experience at all. You know, in recent years, there has been criticism of some young adult writers for what's known as cultural appropriation. And I wonder what you made of this, whether writers should stick to what they know. Well, with my writer's hat on, of course, writers can't just stick to what they know. If I was going to stick to what I know, I'd be writing books about 57-year-old black women, and that's all I'd be writing about. And I've written from the point of view of white characters black characters etc so with my writer's hat on I would say as it's

incumbent on writers to get them get the fact their facts straight and don't assume because they feel a certain way about something that another section of society is going to feel the same way so you have to do your research and you have to get your facts right. And I have read books, unfortunately, where people haven't got their facts right. But as a black woman, I am very aware that it's not an equal playing field. And there are a number of black writers who will present books to publishers. Like a friend of mine recently said on Twitter, he had a black writer, a black male writer, and he sent his book out. He got a reader's report back and the reader's report said this book doesn't ring true because it has a black family eating spaghetti bolognese and black people don't do that. Now, you see, that is not an equal playing field.

Whereas you as a black writer writing about a black family and you're told, well, that's not true. I mean, that's just ludicrous. But that's the reader's report he got back. And, you know, another friend of mine writes books, sort of thrillers, thriller romances that feature black women. And when she initially started sending her work out, she was told, well, that's not the black experience. Like romance is not the black experience.

So if it was all other things being equal, then every writer should be able to write what they want to write but things aren't equal and where when you as a black writer present a story about a black protagonist and you're told well that's not true because it's not the urban experience or it's not whatever the gatekeepers are assuming the black experience is the one black experience then I can understand why sometimes there's a frustration when you feel that other authors are allowed to write your experience as they see it, but yours is deemed to be inaccurate or inauthentic.

How easy was it for you to get published when you started? Not very. I mean, it was eight or nine books over two years and 82 rejection letters before a publisher said yes. So it was a hard slog. What have you done with the rejection letters? I've got them in a file at home. I keep them all. But that said, I mean, I kind of see it as my apprenticeship.

And I'd sort of finish a story and think, oh, I finished a story and correct the typos and send it out. So I had to learn discipline. I had to learn to put it to one side start something else come back to it hone it etc but around about my 70th rejection letter I must admit I did think gosh if all these publishers are saying no maybe do I should I listen and then I but I knew I really wanted to write I was I needed to write and I was desperate to get published. So I thought, I'm not going to give up. This is what I want to do. I'm not going to give up. Now, Noughts and Crosses is being filmed for television. Yes, it's going to be a six-part BBC TV series.

Starring somebody called Stormzy. Yeah, indeed. He's in one of the episodes, indeed, as playing a newspaper editor. But how important is it to have him championing teen fiction, which he has? Yes, absolutely. And I think it's incredibly important because sometimes having someone like Stormzy stand up and say, but, you know, reading is so cool and look what you can get, the benefits of reading, means that maybe they will think, OK, well, if it's all right for Stormzy, then I can kind of do that. But I think part of it is, is a number of teams get disenchanted with

reading because they don't see themselves in any of the material available. And, you know, and that's talking about people with maybe disabilities who don't want to read about, you know, a book that's all about their disability, but they want to see characters who look like themselves, who are going through the same things as themselves, but maybe having adventures or doing different things. The same as, you know, if you're an LGBTQ teen, if you are a traveller teen, working class, all of those voices are underrepresented in publishing. And I think a number of publishers are actually making active strides to do something about that. And I think the situation is better than it it was but we still have a way to go on that. Now you were Children's Laureate between 2013 and 2015 and I wondered what did that mean to the

daughter of Windrush parents? Gosh, it was such an amazing opportunity and when I was asked it was one of those things where I thought, OK, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it properly. And it meant two years away from writing. So I had to think seriously about it. But my daughter was just about to go to university and I wouldn't have done it when she was at school. And I thought, OK, it's one of those things where I knew if I didn't do it I would regret it but it was such an amazing opportunity to be offered that and I and I thought okay a number of the laureates who have gone before have concentrated on sort of like preschool or infant or junior school children so I want to concentrate on teens and trying to get you know disenchanted teens back to reading get books to teens and teens to books. And that was the kind of the goal I set myself. But it was such a phenomenal opportunity. And it was one of those things where sometimes I'd be doing things and I'd have to kind of pinch myself and think,

oh, my God, I'm really doing this. And, you know, it's like one time I remember, I mean, this was slightly before I was children, sorry, but I do remember I was invited for a lunch at 10 Downing Street. This is when Tony Blair was prime minister. And I thought it was a reception, so there'd be loads of people there, but it was kind of a lunch with the great and the good. And I'm sitting there thinking, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm sitting here having lunch with, you know, Ludmilla Patina sitting next to me and sort of like, look who I've got opposite me and so forth. It was just, it was one of those bizarre moments. And I think that when I was children, sorry, there were a number of those.

I was thinking, God, this is so amazing. I can't believe I'm doing this. And it was almost like, sometimes it felt like it was happening to somebody else that I was just kind of watching on thinking, gosh, is that really me? So I just feel incredibly honoured that I was asked to do it and fortunate that I got sort of two years to do it. It was hard work and it was a full-on two years, but I'm so, so glad I did it. I was talking to Mallory Blackman and the new book is called Crossfire. The first lawsuit in America accusing Jeffrey

Epstein of the sexual assault of a 14-year-old has been filed in New York less than a week after he was found dead in his prison cell. The lawsuit has also named his friend Gislyn Maxwell and three other women accused of finding underage girls for him. Jennifer Arrows, the alleged victim, is now 32. So how has her case come about so long after the alleged abuse, and what of the other young women who claim to have been abused by him? What justice can they expect? Well, Amanda Taub is a former human rights lawyer who writes for the New York Times interpreter column.

Lisa Avalos is professor of law at Louisiana State University and joins us from there. Lisa, the Arrows case has been filed under a new law in New York. How does the Child Victim Act work? Thank you. It's wonderful to be here with you this morning. The way that this law acts is that generally it allows survivors who suffered sexual abuse as children to file civil lawsuits against abusers lawsuit of this nature was 23 years old. So it gives an extra 32 years for somebody to file. There's also a one-year look-back window with this law. And during this one-year look-back window, sexual abuse survivors of any age, any time limit, or with any amount of time that has elapsed since the sexual assault can come forward and seek out legal prosecution against the perpetrator. So for the next year, anybody can come forward no matter how many years it's been since the crime occurred

against them. The law also lengthens the amount of time that somebody can come forward to prosecute criminal charges against an offender. So for a felony or the most serious type of sex offense, those cases can now be prosecuted in New York until the offender turns 28. So those are some of the changes. Amanda, what do we know about Epstein and his attitude to the pursuit of sex with teenage girls? We know that he was a very wealthy man who pursued sex with teenage girls and we should point out young teenage girls many of them only 14 or 15 years old, with a singular determination. Case files that have recently been released, containing some evidence from his diaries, his schedule, things like that, suggest that he had often multiple diary entries per day, saying for massage or similar, which apparently was a reference to young girls coming to his home for essentially sexual abuse.

And he thought it should not be criminalized, didn't he? That seems to be the case. has compared his crimes to shoplifting a bagel and believes that he seemed to believe that it should not be a crime. But it seems that he, you know, also had a fair amount of confidence that even though it was a crime, he wasn't going to face consequences for it. Lisa, what chance of justice is there for the other alleged victims? Now Epstein is dead because this law covers the Caribbean, which is part of the U.S. Virgin Islands. As far as criminal justice, now that he's dead, there's no possibility of resolving any of the criminal charges against him. So in that sense, his victims are going to be denied justice and that they will not get their day in court and that Epstein can never be found definitively guilty of the crimes that have taken place against him. However, there is the possibility for victims to bring civil suits against his estate where essentially they're suing for damages so they can achieve a financial settlement by suing his estate. And one civil rights lawyer in the United

States who represents several victims, Lisa Bloom, has actually called on the administrators of his estate to freeze his assets so that they will be available for any of his victims who want to come forward. Those civil cases are a bit easier to win than criminal cases because the standard of evidence is you've got to prove by a preponderance of the evidence rather than beyond a reasonable doubt that you were sexually abused in order to win a suit like that. So a civil suit is a possibility, but he will never face criminal justice at this point. One thing, sorry, I would just add to that is that even though Mr. Epstein can no longer face charges, there is still a possibility that some of his co-conspirators or collaborators. That's where I was going to go, because the U.S. attorney general, I think, said on Monday that any co-conspirators should not rest easy and that victims deserve justice and will get it. And it is interesting that Maxwell and three other women, Amanda,

are included in this first case. Why is there such enthusiasm for pursuing the alleged perpetrators other than Epstein himself? I think the short answer is that they are accused of participating and facilitating these horrible abuses of children. But the slightly longer answer, which has to do with why now, is that a journalist named Julie Brown of the Miami Herald has done amazing work bringing to light the egregiousness of these crimes

and the fact that Mr. Epstein faced essentially no justice and his co-conspirators none. And that has led to a great deal of outrage in the United States and a desire to get not just Mr. Epstein, but to take a closer look at the system that enabled these crimes. Amanda, who are the other women who are coming forward? The other victims, you mean? So I think that actually, this is a bit of a misconception, that they're only coming forward now. Because in fact, when the police were investigating these crimes more than a decade ago, they had over 100 Jane Does who were young women who had spoken to the police and detailed what had been done to them. So this actually was not a case of women or girls in this case not coming forward.

It was a case of them not being listened to by the criminal justice system and not having their cases actually prosecuted. Do you expect more to come forward? Given what we know, I think it seems quite likely. So there is still a disturbing delta between the number of things like diary entries for massage and the number of victims who have been identified. Although it should be said that it's not clear how many victims have been identified by law enforcement because there's this relatively new federal investigation and prosecution that has only been going on for a few months. How, Lisa, are cases of sexual violence generally dealt with in the United States?

Well, we are getting better at dealing with sexual violence in the United States? Well, we are getting better at dealing with sexual violence in the United States, but it is a challenge to continue to improve services to victims. And in many places, police investigation practices are not where they should be. We have a country of 18,000 separate law enforcement agencies at the federal, state, local, and tribal levels. So it's very challenging to ensure that victims get uniformly good treatment everywhere. But one of the things many communities in this country are doing now to respond to sexual assault more appropriately is to use a multi-agency approach. And that means that in these communities, when there's a report of sexual assault, the community activates a sexual dismissed out of carelessness because one officer does not believe a victim. We're also seeing a move towards using trauma-informed interview techniques to ensure that investigators properly understand and interact with people who have been affected by the severe traumas of sexual assault

so those are some of the changes that we're seeing but with so many separate law enforcement agencies we have a long ways to go to make sure that everybody is getting a high quality response when they report a sexual assault will epstein's victims get justice and will his co participants shall we say, come to court? I think it'll be really interesting to see what happens in the future. We know that just since Epstein's arrest on July 12th, at least 12 more victims have come forward that were not known of back in 2007 when he entered into a non-prosecution agreement. I think that that non-prosecution agreement has really heightened interest in finding out who his other co-conspirators are beyond the women who facilitated him that Amanda mentioned, because there is some evidence that he may have been

running a very extensive child sex trafficking ring that involved not just his own use of girls for sexual gratification, but many of the victims allege that after grooming them, he actually sent them out to meet the sexual needs of a number of high-profile men who were among his contacts. Many of these men visited his private island or flew on his private plane. The ones who have been named publicly vehemently deny the allegations, but there's a lot of smoke there. So there's a lot of interest in seeing who these people are and should they be prosecuted as well. Amanda, how much has the Me Too campaign emboldened women to come forward? Well, in general, I think that the Me Too campaign may have emboldened women to come forward.

But in this particular case, I think we really have to be aware that these women came forward and they continued to tell their stories for years. I think the thing that Me Too made a real difference to in this case is it brought new awareness to the fact that often powerful systems don't listen to women when they come forward. But it is possible for this kind of injustice to just get swept aside. Amanda Taub, Lisa Avalos, thank you both very much indeed for being with us this morning and I'm sure we'll be following up on this case. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now still to come in today's programme, a case of disputed inheritance was resolved this week at the High Court. How closely did it resemble the plot of Dorothy L Sayers' The Unpleasantness at the Bologna Club and the serial, the fourth episode of the Latvian Locum.

Now in 1998, Errolyn Wallen became the first black female composer to have her work performed at the proms and tonight an orchestral piece she was commissioned to write will be played by the BBC National Orchestra of Wales conducted by Elim Chan and sung by Catriona Morrison. It's called This Frame is Part of the Painting and this was recorded in a rehearsal. © BF-WATCH TV 2021 Errolyn, that sounds very exciting. That was recorded in rehearsal. Just yesterday afternoon. Amazing. What inspired the piece?

Oh, well, it was my great love and deep admiration of the paintings of Howard Hodgkin, who died in 2017. I had the great pleasure of meeting him in 2015. But I've always loved his, from the moment I saw his paintings, I was really not sideways by them. So when David Jackson, who is head of Cardiff Sing the World, wanted to commission a work for the winner of Cardiff Sing the World, which was Katrina Morrison, he said, what ideas would I have for a piece for orchestra and voice? And immediately I said, I want to pay homage to this great painter. Looking back, what was the impact of your invitation in 1998

to have a piece performed at the Proms and be the first black woman to be performed there? It was a wonderful thing. Obviously, the Royal Albert Hall and the Proms are just this fantastic institution for every composer. It's a real landmark, so I felt deep honour. But actually, it's myself who noticed, made a note of thinking, oh, actually, I was the first black woman to have a piece performed at the Proms. And I wrote an article in the Proms Guide and I was looking back 50 years ago and, you know, there weren't any women composers, there weren't certainly no composers of colour. so things are changing slowly. Yeah, but only 6% of the competitions this year are by women.

How much really are things improving? Well, I do know that the BBC are really planning that by 2022 it'll be 50-50. And, you know, that day, obviously I'd love that day to be now, but because I teach composing, I see the great talent that's right across right across the board how did you begin your career you know it's the love of music that's driven me as a little kid I just music came easily to me there's nowhere I had an idea that I would be a professional musician so it's just I've just followed my own nose at a time you know when certainly I would have been deterred by teachers of going into classical music.

But I just have this great love of, you know, to be able to write for the orchestra. We had this great teacher in Tottenham in my primary school who introduced us to orchestral music. When I think about that, that inspired a love of orchestral music and classical music. Now, raised in Tottenham, although you came from Beddy's, I think when that, that inspired a love of orchestral music and classical music. Now, raised in Tottenham, although you came from Belize, I think when you were two. Yes. And you were raised by a white aunt and an uncle from Belize. What was that like?

Well, I think it was very enriching. We were different to other children. So my aunt, who's from the east end of London, so on Sundays she would send out for jellied eels for the month and outside the pub. So we'd have jellied eels and then we'd have rice and beans and planted. So I remember it to do with food. Food was always, you know, pie and mash with rice and things like that. So we certainly were unusual to other children, you know, certainly other black children. But you see, it meant that we grew up totally unprejudiced. We weren't, we had a broad outlook.

And there was music in the family, wasn't there? Your father was a jazz musician? Yes, he wrote songs, had a beautiful sort of crooning voice and he had really wanted to be a professional singer. And he went to New York? Yeah, he went with my... We have a big extended family in downtown, in Flatbush, which is almost like a little Belize. And my grandmother lived there, cousins and aunts and uncles.

So they moved there with the idea of sending for us, but that actually never happened, so we stayed in England with my uncle and aunt. But I'm deeply grateful because I think my uncle particularly was such a cultured man, and he instilled in us the love of poetry and music and this idea of just trying to get a good education. At what point did you decide,

right, composition is what I'm going to do, it's for me? Though I'd studied undergrad and postgrad, it wasn't until I'd say sort of mid-twenties, I thought, no, I must be a composer. I remember a day when I'm thinking I'm actually going to die unless I write a string quartet, I'm actually going to die. It's just like a burning inside and it took hold of me. How did your work come to orbit the Earth in 2006? You see, I do get about a bit. I was in Houston having my work performed and at the same time I was writing an opera and I made up the story of a black woman astronaut

getting ready to go to Mars. And this was around about 2005 or something. And so when I was in Houston, I said, surely there's an astronaut I could talk to about space. And sure enough, I was introduced to Stephen McLean, who went on to become head of the Canadian Space Agency. He was just about to go on the STS-115 mission to the space station, and we became very friendly. And we would, in preparation for that trip, we would talk for hours on the phone

about what it was like in space. He'd been before. And it was only after he came back from this mission, he asked for my address. And then this CD turned up, framed from NASA, saying it orbited. So isn't that wild? It had gone all around the world several times, I think, hadn't it? Several times, yeah.

Now, in 2017, you composed Mighty River to mark the abolition of the slave trade in England. Let's just hear a little bit of that. Now you just corrected me. I was right on the 2017 when it was actually recorded, but you composed it in 2007, much longer before than it was recorded. But what did it mean to you to be asked to mark that anniversary? Well, the work is dedicated to my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandmother. It caused me to reflect on my ancestors. And I don't take anything for reflect on my ancestors.

And I don't take anything for granted in my life. I know that, you know, it's not that long ago that I would have, you know, would have been a slave on a plantation somewhere. But the piece, this Mighty River is a very optimistic piece. It's about that freedom is like the sea, is like water, always looking to flow into the sea. And so as long as human beings have that need for freedom, there will always be a resolution of some sort for the good, I think.

And talking of the sea, I know you happen to compose in a lighthouse in Scotland. Why? Well, number one, it's what I could afford. Number two, there's a website called lighthousesforsale.co.uk. Are you serious? Yes. And I stumbled across... My dream has always been to live on top of the sea, to be in a place fairly remote. And it's so hard to find real quiet in London.

And so this would be a place I could go and work. I didn't mean it to be as far away as Scotland, because it's, you know, 600, at the very top in Sutherland, very top, right in the middle of the United Kingdom. But anyway, having seen this place, I just, yeah, fell in love with it. And it's my second home. And I go up there you know as often i'm going up straight after the proms in fact and the light works does it well it's no longer

operational very sadly we're all really sad about that but we it's an incredible occasion it's something magical about it and so i'm always encouraging you know friends to go and stay there too and do their own work. Errolyn Morland, thank you very much indeed for being with us and the very best of luck for tonight when the work is going to be performed at the Albert Hall. Best of luck. I'm sure it'll be wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. Now, and, oh, sorry, forgot to say, The Frameless Part of the Painting will be broadcast live on BBC Radio 3 tonight at 7 o'clock

and will then be available afterwards on BBC Sounds. I was thinking about your lighthouse and I forgot to say. That's me, Diana. Radio 3. Anyway, it will be on Radio 3. Thank you very much, Carolyn. Thank you. Now, an extraordinary inheritance dispute between two stepsisters

was resolved this week in the High Court. The parents of the two women had died in their bungalow nearly three years ago and the inheritance question depended on which of the two had died first. There was no suggestion of foul play at all and the case revolved around a rarely used section of the 1925 Law of Property Act which deals with the presumption of survivorship in multiple fatalities. The order of the parents' death could not be established, so as the wife was the younger of the two, it was assumed she had died last, and it was her daughter who got the house and the cash.

What's interesting about the case is that it has an uncanny resemblance to the plot of Dorothy L. Sayers' novel, The Unpleasantness at the Bologna Club. Well, I'm joined by two of Sayers' devotees. Jill Peyton Walsh is the author of four books about the Sayers' character, Lord Peter Whimsey. Shona Ford is the chairman of the Dorothy L Sayers Society. Shona, how much were you struck by this case that happened in the High Court right now and the Sayers novel?

It was extraordinary. You know, I've been following the case in the papers and immediately, you know, who died first? I mean, there are considerable differences because Mr and Mrs Scull in this case had not made wills in the case of the unpleasantness at the Bologna Club they had both the characters who died so closely together had made wills so there are differences

but it is extraordinary and interestingly at first in the unpleasantness it is presumed that both the brother and the sister in the case in the unpleasantness, it is presumed that both the brother and the sister, in the case in the book, have died of natural causes. And of course, there was no foul play at all in the case that happened in the High Court. Although, naturally, in a Sayers novel, there was foul play. But the case this week, Shonaona used the 1925 property act how much was says inspired by

that act well for um the unpleasantness at the bologna club it's not uh obvious but she was aware of it because in her other another novel of hers unnatural death the the act is actually mentioned and the the going to consult a solicitor about the implications of the act which was about to come into force in January 1926 actually precipitated the murder i i don't want to say anymore jill what inspired you to write four follow-up novels oh well when i was a young thing at school i had no idea it was possible to be an intellectual and a woman until I read Gordie Knight and then I fell in love with Sayers and gobbled up everything I could find of hers and so when somebody told me there was a truncated fragment of unfinished manuscript left behind her and they were looking

for someone to complete it I thought thought, that sounds rather difficult, and then I thought, I owe Sayers a great debt. I would not have gone to university if I hadn't read Gordianite, so I must try to do this. So I tried, and it had its difficulties, but on the whole, readers liked it, and so what I hadn't anticipated is what happened next, which is that people wanted another

one and then another one and then another one and what what is it would you say Jill that draws people to her work now oh well there are two two aspects I think of her unique appeal of course 1930s detective story writers are very popular televisedvised a lot, read a lot, so she's not alone. However, her particular strengths of interest, one is she produced a detective in Lord Peter Whimsey who wanted an intellectual equal for his consort in life. Now that was very unusual in her generation, and it's still not tremendously frequent in our own generation, I believe. But it's very attractive to women to read about a man who wants them to be intelligent rather than just good at washing up. And the other aspect of this, which is more subtle, really, is that she writes in a literary way

and there are quite a lot of readers of detective story writers who also read literary work and didn't particularly want it all stripped down to nothing but a sequence of clues as though it were a kind of narrative crossword I'm not going to say whose writing I think that resembles but Sayer's writing is always a full novel in which you can imagine a whole community of characters

interreacting together so it simultaneously gives you the pleasures of reading a seriously good literary novel and also the pleasures of working out who done it and why it's a rather rich fruitcake How did she become so knowledgeable about legal and police procedure so that actually her work still feels current yes it does doesn't it um we don't know in detail um i i can tell you from my own family experience, because my father was her doctor, that at one point she wanted to know for a play how much a human head weighs.

Because she wanted a character coming on stage bearing a human head on a salver. And she didn't want it to look as if they were carrying on something just made of papa mache and so she rang up my father how heavy is a human head so she was one of those tenacious forthright people who would find things out now how she did it with the police stuff, I don't know. If she asked your father about the weight of a

human head, she probably just had a tame policeman and went and asked him. She may have. I don't think, Jill may correct me, but I don't think we know of a tame policeman that she had. Do we, Jill? Do we know of a tame policeman or policewoman, of course? I don't know about a tame police or policewoman, but I have a strong suspicion that if you make a habit of reading the law reports in The Times lifelong,

you pick up a lot of knowledge about police procedure and the kind of thing that happens. And in fact, it's the kind of thing that happens which I think is so interesting about this coincidence with the contemporary case. Because obviously, she knew Aristotle. She was very keen on Aristotle's poetics. And he opined that one of the things you needed to do in a fine play was to write about the kind of thing that would probably or necessarily happen. The kind of thing that would happen. If you write detective stories aiming at the kind of thing that would happen, then even if it hasn't happened already, sooner or later, it might happen again. And that, I think, is what is making us blink present day. It's written two stories in which the kind of thing that might happen

has just happened in reality in the law courts and triumphantly vindicated her. I was talking to Jill Payton Walsh and Shona Ford. Lots of you got in touch to express your admiration for Mallory Blackman. Caroline emailed, I cannot emphasise enough what an impact reading her books had Once you've got in touch to express your admiration for Malorie Blackman, Caroline emailed, I cannot emphasise enough what an impact reading her books had on my mixed race daughter from hacker through to Noughts and Crosses and beyond. They've stuck with her into adulthood and are on her keep shelf. Dr Jessica Eaton tweeted, Oh my God, my favourite author in the world is on Woman's Hour.

Ah, I adore Mallory Blackman. She changed my whole life as a kid. Dr Sue Whitcomb added, I read her as an adult along with my children. Superb author. Her stories continue to be relevant as our lives move forward. Now do join me if you can for the Friday edition of Woman's Hour tomorrow. You may remember the Country Girls by Edna O'Brien caused something

of a scandal when it was published in 1960. Tomorrow the writer Lynne Coughlin describes adapting it for a new BBC Radio 4 dramatisation and she'll be joined by the literary critic Alex Clark. And I'll also be speaking to the choreographer Carrie Anne Ingrue about the world premiere of Zoo Nation Youth Company's latest work. Tales of the Turntable

are where some of the best young hip-hop dancers look at early origins of hip-hop, funk and soul through to disco. That's tomorrow, two minutes past ten. Join me if you can. Bye-bye. Beyond Today is the daily podcast from Radio 4. It asks one big question about one big story in the news and beyond. I'm Tina Dehealy.

I'm Matthew Price. And along with a team of curious producers, we are searching for answers that change the way we see the world. Subscribe to us on BBC Sounds and join in on the hashtag Beyond Today. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from

this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.