Woman's Hour - Ayanna Witter-Johnson

Episode Date: May 8, 2019

Mark Carney will step down as Governor of the Bank of England on January 31st 2020. The search is on for a successor and the Chancellor hopes to make an appointment in October. An executive search agency has been tasked with widening the diversity of candidates and a number of high-profile women have been tipped for the role – who are they?Classically trained cellist, songwriter and jazz singer Ayanna Witter-Johnson has just released her debut album Road Runner. She performs live and talks about being inspired by her mum, how Reuben her cello is her dancing partner and being an advocate for the women’s movement. An estimated 5000 women a year around the world are killed through so-called honor killings, often by a member of their own family. What drives a person to murder their sister, mother or daughter? What is life like in a society in which women are imprisoned for their own "protection," while their potential killers walk free? Jenni speaks to Lene Wold, an investigative journalist, author of Inside an Honor Killing: A Father and A Daughter Tell Their Story.With the arrival of the Meghan and Harry’s new baby, we consider the best ways to help new parents as they celebrate a new arrival. In Berlin an ‘It’s A Boy!’ balloon was given to the Duchess of Cornwall, Niagara Falls has been lit in blue, and trees were planted in New Zealand. But as Prince William noted, the reality is what he called, “the sleep deprivation society that is parenting." So, are balloons and flowers in order, or would short visits, ready-made food, and practical help in the house be more welcome? To discuss, Jenni is joined by Ellie Gibson, one half of parenting comedy duo Scummy Mummies, and parenting blogger Clemmie Telford.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Laura Northedge Interviewed Guest: Ayanna Witter-Johnson Interviewed Guest: Lene Wold Interviewed Guest: Ellie Gibson Interviewed Guest: Clemmie Telford

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you with the Woman's Hour podcast for Wednesday the 8th of May. In today's programme, Inside an Honour Killing, Lena Wold is a Norwegian journalist who met a Jordanian woman maimed by her father who killed her sister. And she also spoke to the father about his motivation. met a Jordanian woman maimed by her father who killed her sister. And she also spoke to the father about his motivation.

As Meghan and Harry prepare to reveal their son to the press, what about all the other new parents across the country? What do family and friends need to know about gifts and visiting time? And the woman who dances with her cello, known as Ruben, Iana Witter-Johnson, played and sang live in the live programme. I'm sorry you can't hear it because of copyright during the podcast. As you may have heard, the Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, will step down on the 31st of January 2020 after seven years and the search is on for a successor. The Chancellor hopes to make an appointment in October and a number of high-profile women have been tipped for the job.

Who are they? And what difference, if any, would a woman make to the decisions the bank makes and the British economy? Well, Anna Isaac is the economics and trade correspondent at the Daily Telegraph. Why is this job such an important one? Well, as governor of the Bank of England, you're in charge fundamentally of keeping prices stable in the UK. So the most basic mandate of the Bank of England is to keep inflation, the growth in prices at around 2%. And they target that in a host of different ways, but largely by either raising or dropping the bank's interest rate, which then informs how the whole market of interest rates work.

And that's one of the biggest jobs in the UK, in my view, and most people that study economics. How likely is it that the next governor will be a woman? Well, going off past history, there have been 120 governors of the Bank of England, and it's a very long line of white men. There's never been a female governor of the Bank of England. It's fair to say that there has been a big overture made by getting a recruitment agency that's known for getting women into top jobs. The Treasury's gone for someone called Sapphire Partners. They helped get women into two roles at the bank on its financial policy committee, which looks at risk in the banking system in the UK. We've got

two women on there now. So it's fair to say that there's an effort being made, but it's still a very male-dominated environment and it might be quite hard to get a woman into the top job. Well three women are counted I think as front runners so who are Mino Shafik, Baroness Fadera and Sharon White? So Sharon White used to work at the Treasury and she's got a lot of governmental experience. She is now taking the helm at Ofcom. She is also, interestingly, married to Robert Choate, who is head of the OBR, which that's the government spending watchdog. So that's another big job in economics in the UK, but that wouldn't rule her out. And she's got a pretty impressive track record. There is, though, a little bit of controversy about the possibility of a power couple there isn't there

um i think there could be but um i think given given their kind of reputation as public servants they're known for both in their respective ways being very transparent um i don't necessarily see that as ruling out sharon at all um i think um you know she's she's up against the other two people you've mentioned are very very fierce the other two people you've mentioned, very, very fierce and impressive individuals. You've got Manoush Shafiq, who was, interestingly, a female deputy governor of the Bank of England, and there haven't been that many of them.

But she left that role quite quickly to go and take up the helm at the LSE, London School of Economics. And she did describe that as her dream job. So while Manoush is eminently well qualified, I'm not entirely sure whether or not she will want the top job. And then Baroness Federa has a lot of banking industry experience. Again, very well respected, very high powered woman, could be a great shout. I think there are other people worth a look in as well. You've got Rain Newton Smith, who used to work at the Bank of England and is now chief economist at the Confederation of British Industry. And I think

she'd be a very interesting candidate too. And so I think we should keep our eyes peeled for whether or not she puts in an application by June 5th. What others would you name? Well, people have thrown in a bit of a wild card with janet yellen um she's obviously one of um the most high profile central bankers in history she did the equivalent of the governorship but in the u.s at the u.s federal reserve um she was pretty good at going toe-to-toe with donald trump um and sort of steering her course as an independent central banker whether or not she would want to take the role um after the federal reserve you you have you have been the most powerful central banker in the world um the uk job doesn't quite compare whether or not she would want to do it is is a different

question you keep saying with all of them would she want to do it would she want to do it would we say that about a man ever would he well would he really want to do it um Would she want to do it? Would we say that about a man ever? Would he really want to do it? Are we falling into a stereotype here? No, I think what I want to avoid is assuming that there aren't lots of great, impressive jobs that women are out there already doing. And I think it must be quite frustrating as a very successful female economist to have your name just thrown in because you happen to be a high profile female in an industry that is male dominated. So I suppose what I'm trying to do is guard against being like, well, this is one of the top jobs in the UK, full stop and within

economics around the world. So I just don't want to throw in names because they just happen to be women we've heard of, I suppose is my card there. But there are obviously candidates from black and minority ethnic groups. How seriously is the bank known to take gender equality and diversity targets? Right. So I think it's fair to say that the bank does have a massive diversity problem. And people need to understand why, first and foremost, that's a big problem. If you are setting a monetary policy, if you're setting those interest rates, and you're thinking about all of the different pressures people have, you need a diversity of experience. The bank is doing very poorly against its BAME targets. It's aiming to have 13.5% senior managers from black and minority ethnic backgrounds by 2022,

it's got 5% against that target at the moment. So it's not even halfway there. It's close to its target for women in senior management roles. But by the way, that's 35%. And I think we all know that women make up about half of the UK population. So it's struggling. It's trying very hard at both ends of the pyramid. But only a third of economics graduates are women. And, you know,

somebody like Rachel Reeves, the MP who chairs the Business Select Committee, she worked at the bank before she went into politics. And people often talk about a pipeline and say there's a problem for women. Where is that problem? Right. So this is an interesting thing. If you are one of those one in three graduates in economics, one of the very first jobs you absolutely do want is the Bank of England job, because this moment you get that brand on your CV, any kind of junior job at the Bank of England, you them getting them in the front door at the bottom of the pyramid the problem is then getting people to rise up the pyramid at pace and when it comes to their senior management that's where the big problem is they have dramatically increased the number of junior hires they make from black and minority ethnic backgrounds and who are women and i'm a bit fed up of this idea that only one in three economics graduates in the UK are

women therefore we can't have any senior women I think we have to realise that we need to yes we need to get more people studying economics at university but look at how many people go into the financial industry and could learn a great deal about economics literally on the job so we need to stop thinking of if you didn't do the right degree you can't do x job and we need to stop thinking of if you didn't do the right degree, you can't do X job. And we need to just spot talent and nurture it and realise that you could still do a great job. One final question. What evidence is there that it would make a difference if a woman were appointed to this top job? Well, I think if we look at the fact that you used to have female deputy governors and we haven't had a sort of magic wand in terms of Bank of England diversity we need to stop putting so much pressure on senior women to if they take the top job anywhere all of a sudden change the institution what we need to make sure we do is the next person whatever their gender whatever their background is a fantastic manager that is really really really good at

making diversity more than lip service and understands how to get people from that bottom tier up to the middle tier and from that bottom tier up to the middle tier and from that middle tier up to the top tier at the bank. And I think only a great manager would give you that evidence of really improving diversity. Anna Isaac, thank you very much. We will keep a close eye on this one. Thank you very much for being with us.

Now, Anna Whitter-Johnson could not have had greater praise from the critics. One wrote, she's the artist of our times. She's a cellist, songwriter and singer, and everyone needs to be listening to her right now. She is fire. So here you go. This is Nothing Less, which she performed on International Women's Day at the Women of the World Festival in London. the very best You know you have so much to express Come as you are Nothing less

Praise as strong Don't be afraid Come as you are Nothing less Anna, what inspired Nothing Less? You know, I took myself to a festival for the first time and I realised that I could embrace new experiences. I could go out of my comfort zone.

I travelled quite a long way to get to this festival and I enjoyed myself so much. I met so many beautiful people and spirits. I just felt like I needed to celebrate who I am as a woman. You've described yourself as an advocate for the women's movement. What does that actually mean for you, being an advocate? I think because of the combination of things that I do and what I sing about I think it's important for me with my natural hair, my Caribbean heritage, playing a classical instrument, bringing in my influences to just present myself as I am and to celebrate being a little bit different, to celebrate who I actually am and not who someone else wants me to be. Now you've just released your first album which is called Roadrunner after the title track. Why Roadrunner? The metaphor of that song is really the story of a young Caribbean person growing up in North London having to face challenges and finding their own way with the resources that they have and I feel like the kind of artist I am, I'm constantly pushing and finding my own

pathways through quite a wide industry. So I wanted to really champion, keep doing what you're doing and knowing that it's going to work out for you. Now the publicity says it brings a little coarseness to the cello. He's lying over there, isn't he? Yes, Ruben Dali. And you're going to go and dance with him in a minute. Well, I hope you're going to dance. I know you're going to sing with him. But what does that little coarseness to the cello mean? So I studied classically but as I started to develop my sound as a songwriter I really wanted to hear other things and that's when I started to really play it more percussively like a guitar, like a bass, like a drum, like the beautiful melody instrument that it is. So all those things started to really create a unique sound which is nothing like orchestral

playing in the main. But course is the wrong word, actually, because it's beautiful, even though it's different. Thank you, yeah. I would not have described it as course, as we've already had. Now, your performances are very particular. An amazing, very tight catsuit. I couldn't think of any other word to describe it. The cello, named Ruben, whoen who as I said is lying over there yes with whom you actually dance how did you develop that style

I've always been interested in three things music acting and dance and it really hurt me that I sort of left the dance behind I don't think it's fully left behind but I just needed to know that I sort of left the dance behind. I don't think it's fully left behind, but I just needed to know that I hadn't left a part of myself behind. And so when I realised that by standing and playing the cello as opposed to sitting, I could free my body a little bit. I started to run with that idea. And the video for Nothing Less, as you heard, is three beautiful black women dancing with cellos and amplifying that. Yeah, very beautiful black women in the most amazing costumes, looking incredible. Thank you. I have had a look at it.

It's extraordinary. Thank you. And you've also, I understand, got a new cello called Ruby. Absolutely. How did you know? What does Ruby differ from Ruben? So Ruby is a beautiful electric cello, a Yamaha Electric, and she was given to me by Yamaha to explore a different sound

and to see how that might complement my acoustic cello, Ruben. So she's a gift. How do the two of them get on? I mean, it's ridiculous, isn't it, to personify two instruments and then ask you how they get on. Well, there was uncertainty at first, to be honest. One wasn't quite sure what the other one was supposed to be doing. But now Ruby really does go through various loop pedals

and she creates completely different soundscapes to Ruben. And he's not jealous? Not anymore, although I think he is secretly. Now you're going to perform for us. It's a song called Unconditionally. What did you want to say in a song that you were dedicating to your mother? I wanted to thank her for encouraging me when I was nine and wanted to give up the piano, for investing in me, investing in my music lessons, in my education in general, and just for always letting me believe that I can do whatever I want

and never telling me you need to do this or the other, just encouraging me. Now, you've got to walk from there to over there because, yes, we've got a microphone set up for you. And there's also a microphone for Ruben. And up he comes. And you have your bow. And everything is ready? Yes. Ready to go. Ready for unconditionally.

Ayanna Witter-Johnson. You are the source of my love And you are the essence of truth And you grow as I grow too Because nothing comes between me and you I see you Ayanna Wisher-Johnson, that was beautiful. I've never, ever seen a cello played like that. It was fantastic. Thank you so much.

And I will just mention again that the new album is called Roadrunner. Thank you so much for being with us. Now, still to come in today's programme, as Harry and Meghan continue to keep their son under wraps, lots of new parents across the country will be learning how to manage their new baby. How should grandparents, aunts, uncles and friends best manage the first few days of adjustment? And the serial the readers of Broken Wheel recommend. A reminder of this week's podcast for parents. It's out now and is about children's party bags. There's also an article

about raising successful adults on the Woman's Hour website. And you may have missed yesterday's programme from Dublin or Monday's phone-in on food and how to choose it well. You'll find them, of course, on BBC Sounds. Now, there's been a great deal of debate in recent years about the term honour killing. Should the murder of a child by a parent or sibling in the name of the family's honour be called anything but murder? Well, Lennevold is a Norwegian journalist

who spent a number of years in Jordan where such murders have been common for a long time and where a woman thought to have disgraced her family and consequently at risk can be imprisoned, supposedly for her own safety. Well, in her book Inside Inside an Honor Killing, she talks to a father who killed his elder daughter and severely maimed his younger daughter.

She also talked to the survivor. Lena, I must ask you, why, despite the controversy, have you stuck with the term honor killing, which you've used in your title? Well, I decided to use this term because it says something of the reasons why these people kill. And I think it's important to make a distinction between domestic violence and honour killings.

So if you want to understand these murders and if you want to work to change these practices, I think it's important to talk about the root causes for these killings. So what are the reasons that are given? I think it's estimated there are now 20 such killings a year in Jordan and many more across the world. Well, it could be reasons as small as using mascara, taking, to walk together with a guy that is not a part of your family,

to be raped, to get pregnant outside of marriage. So it's all sorts of reasons which there really is no standing for in Islam or in the Quran. To what extent are men ever victims? Is it mostly women who are victims? It's mostly women, but in some cases you also see that men are killed in the name of honour. This is often if he's gay, but I also see in some of these cases that I read from Jordan

that men are forced to commit suicide. And this is much more common than being killed by other family members. Now, the two main people that you've spoken to in your book, Amina, the surviving daughter, and her father, Rahman. Why were they willing to speak to you? Well, Amina wanted to talk to me because she thinks it's really important to get this story out. She wants to work against these practices. And she feels that the fact that she had to spend 13 years in prison for a crime that was supposed to be towards her, against her, makes her so angry. And she really wants to change these practices for other women in Jordan who are under the same pressure.

And what about the father? What reasons did he give for his actions? He had killed his older daughter, severely maimed Amina, the one that you spoke to, and it was also revealed that he'd actually killed his own mother. Yeah, and this is an important part of the story because when Raman was only a child, he was forced to kill his own mum. And of course this does something to you as a person psychologically. And sometimes when Raman has explained his reasons for killing his own daughters,

he says it's because he was a damaged man already from the beginning, that he was forced to kill his own mom when he was a child. And that society, in a way, changed him into a person that he really didn't want to be. He'd also seen a little girl stoned to death when he was very small. So was this something that had just gone on throughout his life, that somehow the community had required one, that he see a little girl being stoned, a little girl who'd been raped, and then to kill his mother and then his daughter. Definitely. He's grown up in a society with so much violence. It's expected that the man use violence to control his family.

And this is really the biggest reason and such a big part of the patriarchy that men are suspected to control their family through violence. What sin, in the terms of Anona killing, had Amina's sister committed? She was together with another girl before she, like she was gay. And her younger sister found out. And then her younger sister told her mom because she was looking for solutions, like if it was illegal or not. And this is how the whole family found out. And what about the role of women in families where this

kind of thing occurs? You describe the sister's mother as very conservative. What would her role have been in all of this? Well, the women also have an important role in these killings, because they are the ones who talk about these rumours. They are the ones who also want their husbands or their brothers to uphold the family's honour. So they really have a big part of this as well. How worried were you when you were researching this story in Jordan for your own safety? I'd taken some chances, but I think you have to do that

when you investigate stories like this. And to me it has been so important to get Amina's story out there. So I've taken some risks and at times I've been really worried that someone might want to hurt me or that they might be able to track down Amina, which has been my main concern, or even Maram, which is the woman that fell in love with her sister, which I haven't spoken to out of fear that she might be found by others of the family.

How did you manage to get access? Because Amina is very carefully hidden away. We won't give any details as to how. How did you get access to her and to Rahman? Well, I spent a lot of time to try to track down Rahman. And he was the one that was most difficult to get in contact with. But I managed to persuade him by saying that I knew that he was a famous man in the neighborhood and he was known for being a respectful man that knew a lot about honor. And I wanted him to explain me what honor killings are and this part of his culture.

Like being a woman from a westernized country, I put myself as a bit naive and he wanted to explain me his culture and his way of thinking. How did your understanding of honor change as you continued your investigation? You described reading the Koran, finding out as much as you possibly can. What did you conclude was at the root of all this? Well, I think the thing that surprised me the most was the fact that honor killings really hasn't a lot to do with Islam. And that's also why I keep on using the term honor killings,

because some people say that's exonanaphobic to to use that term because it says something bad about muslims but really i've had interviews with imams and and people who have studied islam and what they have told me is that honor killings has nothing to do with islam that it's actually against sharia and that people who kill in the name of honour and blame Islam haven't read the holy book correctly. So it is cultural rather than religious? It's definitely cultural, yeah. There was a time in Jordan where women were so much freer than they were when you started your research, you know, wearing miniskirts, not feeling they needed to cover themselves. What changed?

Well, the country has gone in a different direction, I think, at least from the people I've spoken to. One of my guides told me that his grandmother used to wear miniskirts while his younger child now uses a niqab. So, seen from the outside, then from our point of view, it seems like it's going in the wrong direction. But I think that reason for this is the fact that Islam is getting a stronger hold

in Jordan, because of the economic depression, because of the troubles that the country has been through. And to be a more religious country really isn't a problem as long as you don't use violence. Now, Queen Rania, I know, has led moves for change on these killings. What does the law say now about them? They have changed the law in 2016. So up till 2016, you could actually get only three to six months for honor killing. But now these laws have changed so you can get as much as 15 to 20 years. And this is a huge step in the right direction because as the guardian of the family it makes a difference to

if you had to be away in prison for 15 years you wouldn't be able to support your family, you wouldn't be able to give them an income. So it makes a difference. Lennon Wold, thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning and of course the title of your book

is Inside and On a Killing. Thank you. Thank you. Now the big news of the week has of course been the birth of Meghan and Harry's son still known as baby Sussex but of course he was not the only baby to make his first

appearance this week. Across the country grandparents, uncles, aunts and friends will have been longing to see their new baby and bring presents that will please the new entrance to Williams Sleep Deprivation Society. What do new parents need and how can visitors best share their pleasure without wearing the parents out? Well, Ellie Gibson is one of the scummy mummies. Clemmie Telford blogs about being a parent. Clemmie when should you plan a visit? Maybe not right after the birth. No I would say give it a good couple of weeks actually. I after my third child subscribed to the spending a week

in bed and a week on the sofa and no visitors in that time and it was a complete game changer for my postnatal recovery. Did that include your parents? No I allowed the grandparents to come. I was going to say your mother would have gone out. Yeah my mum would have beaten the door down had that been the case. How long do you think you should wait before you impose yourself upon the new parent? Probably two or three years I mean I think that's really how long it takes to get used to the idea of being a parent certainly was in my case um yeah I think take your time and when you do go I think you should limit the time that you spend uh visiting I would say again max two or three minutes 20 tops I think you know when you've just had a baby you're knackered aren't you and

you're getting used to it all and you know it know, it's very difficult to do chat, I found, for longer than about a quarter of an hour. And it's also difficult to actually kick people out, so I think people need to know when to leave. Yeah, yeah, just go, just turn up, have a whinge about childbirth and then just go away. What sort of things should you be careful not to say when you're there? You should always definitely say

the baby's beautiful uh even if it isn't um and then often they aren't at that stage well this is it people say all babies are beautiful i tell you what get a midwife drunk and ask her if all babies are beautiful and you'll hear some truth um and you mustn't say you mustn't say the name is ridiculous again even if it isn't they think they've chosen a wonderful unique special thing for their special little treasure uh don't say to them well actually there's three merlins in my son's nursery class uh just let them have that moment have you really got merlin did your son's nursery class i i mean i well okay there might be a sequoia let's say that my um son's opening comment on seeing me

post having my my daughter was oh mummy your tummy's still big that is the the words that no new mother wants to hear no you definitely don't it's all right if it's your son saying it isn't it yes that was an innocent yeah he was completely innocent but any friend coming around saying you have not yet got your pre-pregnancy figure back. Tell him not to comment on your Instagram. Yeah, no comment on the way the mother looks. No, no. At all. Good.

How much should you think about what to wear? It's a long time since I did all this, a very long time since I did all this. But I remember somebody coming to see me who looked so immaculate she was so beautifully dressed her hair was gorgeous fully made up and I'm sitting there looking like a total wreck was it Jane Garvey no it's long before I knew this is 36 years ago darling that right yeah well Jane wasn't born then, of course. No, she probably wasn't.

Yes, I probably wouldn't turn up in sort of a ball gown or a wedding dress, something like that. You know, the chances are the mum might not be feeling her best or looking her best. So if you can, you can really help her out if you turn up in your old pyjamas, ideally with some milk or some vomit just down the front, and try not to wash your hair for about a fortnight before you go that'd be my advice and what would your advice be clemmy i mean yeah i would definitely keep it low-key and cut this i'm not kind of a clean freak but i remember someone coming and grabbing to hold my baby and they stunk of cigarettes so try and come being clean and

that also that thing where they come and then they're sniveling when they get they're like if you've got a cold or any kind of illness or any kind of lurky please keep it away from my brand new human and what about gifts i know if if they're still in hospital some hospitals won't have flowers will they but what about flowers at home oh don't buy them flowers i mean they get a lot of we get a lot of flowers don't you um i think there's more useful things well ellie and i've both talked about this and our number one gift is lasagna any friend who brings food and a meal you can pop in the oven is a best one of my friends actually just left one on the doorstep

and then text me and said i've left you a lasagna and it was the greatest gift anyone's ever given me yeah and even if you can't be bothered to make a lasagna I was talking about this my friend last night and when we buy a ready-made yeah you can buy a ready-made one um you know if you're that kind of person uh but my friend went last night she was saying when we went to visit her a few months ago with her new baby my husband on the way stopped at a bakery and bought a loaf of bread and at the time I was like that's a random gift to give someone but she was like no actually it was great because it was actually quite a nice loaf of bread that meant that that night we didn't have to think about what to have for dinner so it's about it just sort of removed a little pressure point that day um so yeah we're we're great people is what I'm saying and what about gifts for the baby

I I remember and as I say it was a time ago, but people buying lots of little baby grows that were for the first size, out of which he had grown, I think, in about two seconds. Buy them for, yeah, six months or a year down the line. Or better still, don't buy the baby things, buy something for the mother. She's the one who's just been pregnant and gone through childbirth

and definitely could do with pampering and the baby will be none the wiser but don't buy her clothes that are a few sizes bigger than she needs she might take offense yes absolutely and how about offering to help you know if you go around and you say oh you know would you like me to get the hoover out and hoover around for you how would that go down do you think it has to be from the right person doesn't it could be offensive but anyone who anyone who knows me well and comes and unpacks my dishwasher or takes the bins out i mean i'm super grateful for that yeah i don't mind who does it personally if the window cleaner wants to run a dust around the front room that's fine you don't want them folding your washing though with those massive

postpartum knickers well i mean i do not care well you know some people find that erotic you know there's a niche for everything if you look on the internet and i think the key is don't ask what you can do to help like because when someone says to you what can i do it kind of feels like a job in itself to think up the questions yeah so so just get on and do it you know just just reload the dishwasher or clean the hob or you know show the husband a modicum of physical affection. Anything that will save the mum a job that day. How about helping out with other children, maybe entertaining them? That is a good one. Offering to take them to the park or take them around the corner to a cafe or bring around a magazine or a toy and play with them.

Because it must be pretty hard for them. they've been number one and then suddenly they're on the sidelines and that really helps ease the mum guilt if you know that they're being looked after too. And how about offering to take the baby out for a walk? Oh definitely I say and take the baby out

so not to a nightclub but you know taking the baby into another room is one thing but as a mum you can't really relax can you there's there is in the back of your mind you're listening out for that cry um but if you if you can take the baby actually out even it's just around the block the baby gets fresh air so the mum feels good about that she doesn't have to leave the house that day that's brilliant and maybe might even get a bit of sleep or a shower oh imagine that the shower yeah that's's kind of the unachievable thing

as a new parent. You get to two in the afternoon and you're still in your pyjamas. And a shower can, yeah, can feel like a lifeline. I was talking to Clemmie Telford and Ellie Gibson and we had lots of tweets and emails

from you this morning. On Ianna Witter-itter Johnson, Dowden Girls said, great to hear the supremely talented Ayanna on Woman's Hour. We'll never forget her performance with Mufasa at the 15th anniversary festival last year. And Robin Narayan Photography said, blown away by Ayanna and a soulful R&B voice, a superior talent. And then lots from you on what to do for new parents. Dr Rosalind Baker Frampton emailed, my mum stayed with us for a week and cooked, cleaned, tidied, made cups of tea and generally kept the house running in the background whilst we recovered, slept and bonded with the baby. It was the best present I could have asked for. Sophie said someone suggested to me when I first

had my daughter that my husband and I should have a code word which basically meant the visitors need to leave. We chose squash. I would say to my husband, could you get me some squash please? And right on cue he would say, of course. And isn't it time you got your feet up? You're looking a bit weary, which usually prompted the visitors to say, oh, we must go. It worked every time. Jane said when my first child was born in 1981, my in-laws came to look after my husband while I was in hospital. In those days, you were in hospital for a week after giving birth. When I came home with our daughter, my mother-in-law said she was going to leave everything to me to do as I had to learn to cope. So not only did I have a new baby to look after, but I had to wait on my

in-laws who liked everything at set times. I remember saying they could put the kettle on when they complained that coffee is late this morning. I hadn't had time to make it, but apparently it was insulting to suggest they should make their own. They stayed for a week, which was the longest week of my life. Louise said in 1970, at the age of six, my first words when I met my baby sister after her home birth were, isn't she ugly? I was expecting a bonnie baby, not a bright red crease thing. My mother has never forgiven me. Rohan said, just feel the need to relate what my dad did

to help me and my partner, Kirsten, just after we brought our new son Flynn home from hospital. As we were completely exhausted after the first week of sleepless nights and hadn't had a square meal nor shopped since returning home, we asked whether he could bring food for us if he came to visit. Lunchtime of the visit, we all sat round the dining table to watch him eat the small box of sandwiches he'd brought for himself. Please relate this to would-be grandparents. Mandy said, I still remember the stodgy flapjacks brought to me by a friend after I'd given birth to twins 32 years ago.

The greatest gift I ever received after three difficult pregnancies. Joanna said I had a visitor who brought her children for two hours after having baby two. Her son threw a toy across the room and it hit my son. I was shell-shocked when she left. And then Shireen said loved visitors from day one of baby at home but benefited from mum stroke mother-in-law, husband willing to offer tea, etc. to guests. And then Claire said, a great present for new mothers is nice hand soap and hand cream. Must be pump bottle for ease. It's incredible how many times you wash your hands after dealing with gross nappies or puke. Very soon your hands become chapped and sore. Lovely hand products become a real pleasure in life.

Also, when gifting food, do so in disposable containers. Having to return someone's dish is an added chore which no new mother needs. So thank you for all your contributions to today's podcast. Don't forget we'll be discussing tomorrow a new film which opens on Friday on Netflix. It's called Wine Country and it's about a weekend of women away with their friends, some wine and some falling out. Join me tomorrow, two minutes past ten if you can. Bye-bye.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more

questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.