Woman's Hour - Baby loss certificates, 'Women's intuition', Carolynne Hunter & energy bills

Episode Date: March 20, 2024

On 27 February, Emma Barnett spoke to Zoe Clark-Coates, who runs the baby loss and bereavement charity The Mariposa Trust, about her campaign for baby loss certificates. They were introduced in England in February for parents who’ve lost a baby before 24 weeks of pregnancy. Emma shares her own story and also speaks to a woman who’s decided it’s not for her, and another who applied straight away and has now received four baby loss certificates. Have you ever had a nagging feeling that something wasn’t quite right? A gut reaction or a tingly spidey-like sense that tells you something is off? Author of Emotional Labour, Rose Hackman joins Emma to explain why we need to stop calling it 'women’s intuition'. Carolynne Hunter cares for her 14-year-old daughter who has severe cerebral palsy. She spoke out about her rising household costs back in 2022 and Oscar-winning actress Kate Winslet paid her energy bill. Carolynne joins Emma to give an update on her life since then. It's been announced that a breast cancer drug - Pembrolizumab, sold under the brand name Keytruda - could help thousands more women than previously thought. Emma finds out more from Dr Liz O'Riordan, retired breast surgeon who has had breast cancer herself, twice.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer Louise Corley Studio Engineer: Phil Lander

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. We'll have details for you today of what's being described as a blockbuster immunotherapy drug which could help thousands more women with breast cancer than previously thought. Carolyn Hunter will be here. Her story with her daughter Freya of sky-high energy bills Thank you. And the journalist and author, Rose Hackman, will be here to argue why we need to stop indulging the idea of women's intuition. More to be revealed shortly, but it has something to do with emotional labour. All that to come and more.

But first, a few weeks ago, you may remember I spoke to the founder of the baby loss charity, Mariposa Trust, Zoe Clark-Coates, about her tireless campaign for baby loss certificates to be issued by the government. After nine long years, they were finally introduced in England last month for parents who've lost a baby before 24 weeks of pregnancy. It was a particularly emotional conversation, as you may expect, in which Zoe opened up about her own baby losses, and I'm very grateful to her for feeling like she could. But during our conversation, I realised that I too could apply for one of these certificates. I lost a baby at the start of 2022,

an experience despite being very well aware of how common miscarriage is, you somehow never think will happen to you. I particularly and very naively really didn't think it would, as it had taken five rounds of IVF to finally fall pregnant again, four years after the birth of mine and my husband's son. But it did happen. I lost the baby, and with it I was forever changed. But apart from what went on inside of me

and some of the conversations we had in the days and weeks afterwards, there was nothing else. Like millions of women before me, the baby lived within me and died within me. My body and mind, the keeper and witness. Not that you have to have something, but these baby loss certificates spoke to me. So after the programme last month, I went online, I didn't give it any more thought, I just knew instinctively I wanted to, becoming part of the first wave of women in England to apply for this document. I messaged my husband to explain what I was planning to do,

asking of course if he was comfortable with it. I was going to put his name down and I didn't want him to receive an email asking for his consent without prior warning and he was. I should say you don't have to access your medical, nor is the process limited to one baby loss. But filling in the form, it actually only took a matter of minutes, but it was more emotional than I had anticipated. One of the questions you're asked is when you lost your baby. I realised I didn't actually know what month and at that point even year. If you can relate to any of this, you'll know that that time is a fog and there's a moment before the sonographer tells you the news, if that's the way you find out, as I did, and after. But I felt the act of applying for a baby loss certificate almost to be a political one, a refusal that something so major in our family's life was not to be erased,

was something to be known about, recorded. And when the certificate arrived, a mere 10 days later, in its crisp envelope, I sort of wondered what this was when it dropped through the door, and printed on thick white paper complete with an official government masthead. I've got it here in the studio. I felt weirdly satisfied, almost vindicated. It had happened. There was some physical proof that something external to me, which my husband and our children, here it was, when they're older, could read as part of the story of our lives alongside perhaps our marriage certificates, birth certificates and all the other paraphernalia that documents our existences in a family file of sorts. Our certificate, when I take

it back home, will be filed in the folder alongside the birth certificates of our other children. Children I am so very fortunate to have. And I wanted to share my experience of applying and receiving these new baby loss certificates in a bid to raise awareness of the new scheme and explore some of the issues around it, which I'm going to be helped by your messages to do so today, and two guests. Many of you have already been in touch. If you feel you would like to, the number is 84844.

Text will be charged to your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email me through the Women's Hour website or send a WhatsApp on 03700 100 444. I should also say that support services are available on the Woman's Hour website. Your stories include, though, messages where it's not for you. It isn't something you want to do and I'm very mindful of that. Others, though, who've applied straight away and you also perhaps now have a certificate or are waiting for one.

I received a message only this morning from a woman who said that she would be giving some feedback because hers arrived on Mother's Day. And we have received many messages from those of you who don't yet qualify. I just want to say this at this point, it's described at the moment as a deadline for recent losses since the 1st of September 2018, we have a message here from Pat who said, I lost my babies in the late 70s and my daughter, hers in the early 2010s, we also still grieve and have nothing to confirm their existence. Pat, I want to reassure you and many, many others that that was a temporary and is apparently a temporary date just to avoid the system being overwhelmed.

It will be removed and you will be able to apply. We'll bring you that update on the programme and I'm sure the government will of course update its services too. A message here from Val says, I had a miscarriage at 11 weeks in the early 70s. However, because pregnancy testing before 12 weeks was not available, it was not registered as a miscarriage. There was no support for me, medical or otherwise. It would be good to have some acknowledgement of this as there must be millions like me. And another one here talking about this temporary cut off date, also trying to reassure people of that. And Naomi has messaged to say, we had our losses in 2016 and 2017. And I have decided I will not be applying for certificates, mainly because I feel I've dealt with those emotions. We have two lovely children now, and I do not want to go back to that dark place.

It was an awful time in our lives. And now we are in a different place. I'm joined by Dr. Michelle Tollfree. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. And you are here with your professional hat, I suppose, in some ways on as a psychotherapist. A psychologist. But you are also here as a woman with experience. Yes. And a view that perhaps, well, in some cases does differ to mine in terms of these certificates. Tell us a bit more. So my experience is that I've had two losses. I've had an early loss, which was an ectopic pregnancy. And I also had a later loss. So my first daughter was stillborn at full term. So I have these really contradictory experiences of

having a loss where I have nothing. I have no record. I have no mementos, no memories from that pregnancy. And then I have a certificate of stillbirth for my daughter which was required by law it was something I had to do you at that point I don't know if it's different now but had to go to a registry office where there's lots of other live babies to register the existence of the baby that was born but had died before she was born. And when it was announced that these certificates were going to be launched, I had these really conflicting feelings because I felt like I should want to apply for a certificate so I have this almost full record of my reproductive history, my reproductive story. But there was something within me that felt like that just wasn't going to be the right thing for me right now. And I mean, I think as a person, as a psychologist, as a mother,

I've gone over and over and over about why is this? What is it about this that just doesn't feel right for me right now? And I think it's really embedded in the story about that particular loss. I didn't know I was pregnant until it was catastrophically ending. I found out I was pregnant and then wheeled down for surgery a few hours later to save my life. It was treated as a medical emergency because it was. And at no point, my care was amazing, but at no point was my care, you know, it wasn't framed as I was losing a baby. It was, this is really dangerous. We need to take you for surgery. So I was, you know, I was kept in for a night. I was sent home. But, you know, at no point was I sort of told you might want to follow up to think about this or to explore this.

So I felt like that set the wheels in motion for how I was supposed to feel about this loss. I didn't access any help. I didn't know that there was kind of support out there. I didn't know there was this huge, amazing baby loss community until I then lost my daughter a year later. And it was then that I thought, crikey, maybe I was allowed to feel sad about that loss. Maybe I could have felt sad about it. Maybe I could have grieved. And then by that point, I think I was so traumatised, so burnt out with my grief for the daughter who had just been stillborn, that I felt like I couldn't go back there. And, you know, I've been very lucky to go on to have another daughter and a number of years have passed and I just worry that to go and

apply for a certificate I know how meaningful they are I know how meaningful they are to so many people and for me I wonder whether then I would need to go and kind of really bond with this baby in my mind that I actually hadn't allowed to build in my mind and this was a baby that I didn't know when their due date would be i hadn't thought of names because i didn't have that time to to bond with this baby in my mind and i worry that it's not going to be the right thing for me right now to go there and start to build that um kind of deeper relationship and connection that's not to say i won't in the future but right now this feels like the right thing for me and I'm sure there's lots of people out there who in a similar

position maybe who've had multiple losses maybe many many losses and feel conflicted that they might want they might want to apply for one and not the other or for all of them or for none of them and I think that it's just acknowledging that we have to do what's right for us rather than what we feel like is the right thing to do that other people might deem as right. Thank you for sharing that and also I'm incredibly sorry for your losses. Thank you. And I think what you've spoken to is how some people can't go back and don't want to. Or they feel very differently about that in the way they may then feel about subsequent losses as well. And I think also for this, you know, some people don't feel they're allowed to feel that there was a loss, you know um because and i was reflecting on this the need for those around you who love you

for them to see you move on to focus on the good to focus on the living is huge absolutely and let's let's just just we're good we're here you might not be good but let's say you feel like you are in a much better place it's it's a frightening thing to go back. Do you see that as some of the reason why people may not feel they can or should? Definitely. Because I think it's a bit like a jigsaw puzzle or a sort of Jenga puzzle that if you move one of these parts, there's a fear that, well, what's that going to mean for all the other parts? How do I make sense of all these other parts of my story?

How do I make sense of, you know, would this subsequent child have been conceived? These are all sort of big things that I think are, they're very moving, they're very emotive. And, you know, I think unless you've maybe been through that experience and explored it in a lot of depth, it's really hard to understand how meaningful all of these different parts of our story are. Talking to you a bit more in your role as a psychologist, do you think they can be also

helpful for partners and for those around that sort of externalisation of something? Definitely, definitely. I think that there is something about having something physical, which as humans helps us to know that things exist um you know that's why people keep their pregnancy tests you know there are people who keep lots of those people who keep um i don't know where you're meant to keep them i have i have quite a few yeah i mean it's quite a gross thing because you've peed on it i'm just a light in the mood for one moment but it's so true keeping a pee stick but it's obviously so much more than that. Absolutely. That's it exactly.

These are really powerful objects of attachment to that part of your life to that person to that imagined baby that baby that you are already starting to bond with at that moment. So if you don't have those things if you don't have

I'm very lucky, I guess, with my daughter who was stillborn, I have photographs, I have pieces of clothing that she wore. I have nothing of that for my earlier loss, like so many other people. I don't even have a scan picture. So these objects and these photos and these things, these mementos are powerful and they reconnect us to a time and a place and a part of our history. And these certificates will be another part of that. Let's go through some of these messages today that we're receiving and also some that had come in before the programme. There's one here listening to you today while I shed a few tears, like so many. I've shared your experience and sadly my

two miscarriages took place in between our second and third children but before 2018 so I can't apply yet but when I can I will for the political reasons you mentioned and also I still feel the losses despite being lucky to have the children I do, and want those babies to be remembered and not forgotten, not just by me, but by their brothers who at the time never knew, says Sarah listening in North London. Good morning. The miscarriage certificate reads this message would also be useful for men. When my wife and I lost our twins in 2004, it was the closest that I've personally been to suicide. It still affects both of us massively despite having two beautiful and amazing children now and at the time my employer was awful

and as an engineering consultancy business they really didn't understand how miscarriage can affect men too, says Ken. Ken thank you very much for feeling you could share that. I lost an early pregnancy reads this message which was unplanned and which my husband did not really want. I feel that nobody knew or wanted that baby other than me and I feel weirdly hindered from getting this certificate because the pregnancy almost happened in a silent vacuum. I fear I've buried that loss too deep and I chose to forget it. It's a very interesting one again this is just highly personal and highly specific. My daughter-in-law who lives overseas lost her second baby before

12 weeks in 2015. Other than telling close family, my son and daughter-in-law didn't want to speak about it. It's never been referred to again. But listening to Emma this morning brought me back to the fact that I lost my second grandchild. Luckily they went on to have another in 2017. So

now I have two lovely, healthy granddaughters. But the loss of that grandchild is still there, a different perspective. A message here from Louise talking about perhaps not being ready yet for a baby loss certificate. I had my first daughter in 2018, a really easy pregnancy and a quick birth considering I'd had a stroke aged 30 in 2014, something I wasn't sure was possible. I then had my first miscarriage on the day of the first lockdown, the 23rd of March 2020 at nine weeks. I went on to have three miscarriages all in 2020, the first two at nine weeks and then the third a few days before our 12-week scan. I went to all three scans and medical appointments alone, something I'm sure that's causing me trauma even now. Gosh.

I was lucky and gave birth to my second daughter in 2020. I have heard about the baby loss certificates and while I think they are a good idea, I can't even bring myself to go on the website. It's weird as I think maybe it would help me. It's also wrapped up in the trauma for which I'm having counselling to unpick at the moment. I don't really feel anything about the miscarriages other than feeling I should be sad. My husband says that while I was the one who physically went through the miscarriages

and we have our second daughter and he doesn't really think of them and doesn't think of the miscarriages. That's a message there from Louise. Thank you very much for getting in touch and feeling you can share that. Holly Scott's on the line now. Holly, good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. And I understand you have received your baby loss certificates is that right yes I have um so I have four in total um the last three and a half years for us have been very much about first of all it was having our first baby who we we did get around to having in January 2022 but we had two losses in the lead up to having her

and we've had two since in sort of trying to get there a second time. I'm very sorry. Very sorry indeed. And you have also moved, I suppose, relatively fast to apply and have these certificates. What did it mean to you? Why did you want to do this? Well, the funny thing is that initially I wasn't sure that it was for me. I had been following the progress of the work that Zoe had been doing. I knew they were in the pipeline. And as they were sort of gaining a bit more traction in the news and the launch was approaching, I just felt myself kind of compelled to be involved in that conversation. And before I knew it, the morning that they were launched

as the first thing that I did when I woke up, I found myself on the website pouring these details into my phone just to apply for them and within 15 minutes they were all done it was weirdly something I didn't think that I needed but it turns out that it was really cathartic to put all that information somewhere outside of my brain outside of my body yes um I was yeah I was quite surprised by how therapeutic it felt and what was it like to receive them um it kind of surprised me again I think because they're very official documents as you would have seen they come in a big envelope with hard backing from the government it looks very official and I thought oh my goodness what are

these and then suddenly remembered like oh gosh of course that's what they are and you know I skimmed over them and I felt a real sense of relief I think and reassurance it was so validating to see these experiences somewhere physical that I could touch and I knew I'm not going to be displaying them or anything like that they're going to go go, like you said, in a family file. But they exist outside of my mind and body. And that is validating and reassuring. And it sort of is proof that these experiences happen, that these pregnancies and babies did exist, which is hugely reassuring. And have you found it as a family? How's that work?

Because we've been hearing a little bit about partners and also we've heard from a grandparent now. You know, just has there been any additional side of this having something physical, do you think, for your wider group? It's been quite private, just between something between my husband and I. And I've told him and asked for his consent just to make sure that he didn't get sort of bowled over by four emails asking for his permission um but I I think they're more for me than they are for him he completely respects and

recognizes that they have value um but I think I'm not sure that he's really looked at them more than for more than a couple of seconds and I think they're more for me than they are for him um I think it's a physical thing to do it yes it's your it's my body it's my yeah they lived they lived and also died inside me and I think it's more for me than it is for him to be honest and for now i mean you know i'm just looking at the paper in case anybody is is more interested about what you have to supply i mean there's all the information online but there's also um you know uh the details asking if the sex was known the date of the loss the place of the loss uh and also the um the name of the baby if you had a nickname

if you had uh somewhere that you got to with that. I personally actually didn't on that front. But I think, you know, seeing those things written down, any of those details written down, it's quite an extraordinary thing, isn't it? Yeah, it's an experience which is very private. We actually only named one of ours, the one that we sort of got furthest along in gestation and was also the most sort of traumatic to bring to a close. So we decided on a nickname between us. And that's the first time I'd ever put it down somewhere. It's the first time I'd ever written it.

Again, excuse me. So there was something very powerful in doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for feeling like you could talk about it this morning. It is a new thing, you know, to be able to, in England certainly, and all the details about the other rows of the UK online as well. But it is a new thing. And I think when something's new, you know, part of it's just explaining how you can do it and also perhaps why you do it and what you're going to do since doing it.

Holly, Scott, thank you very much. There's more messages coming in in terms of where you are with this. Hayley has said, I have lost five babies in total. Four of these were early miscarriages. One was the loss of my son, Peter, when I was 22 weeks pregnant. Four of my pregnancies were the result of IVF. And me and my husband are still on our fertility journey to hopefully get to bring home one of our children one day. I have applied for a baby loss certificate for our son.

I believe strongly that all steps that can be taken to recognise the lives of lost babies are so important. Following my labour to deliver Peter, it meant so much to me that the midwife weighed him, helped me to choose a little outfit for him and handled him in the same way she would have if he had been born alive. These small gestures to recognise and respect him as a person were huge for me. When my son arrived silently onto the hospital bed, the midwife's first words were, he's beautiful. Those two words will be with me forever. He was beautiful. He deserved to be recognised and remembered.

It was heartbreaking knowing that his birth would not be registered. These new baby loss certificates are such an important step for mothers like me. Hayley, I'm incredibly sorry. But again, thank you for sharing your message. And so they carry on many more coming in uh i hope in some way that our discussion and going back to this now they've started arriving these baby loss certificates for those who would like them those who are able to apply but that will be changing um i hope that the the ability to have this conversation this morning perhaps

gives again another external place to to be able to talk about what was and what perhaps nearly was uh and for that to seem real um just because if if i can just to come back to you uh finally dr michelle tolfrey is a psychologist who speaks to women that psychology of the relationship that's just inside you and that bond it's not even a bond perhaps at first it's just it's just a conversation you know starting between two uh two people and then that getting to know and that intensification of it uh and how to make that feel real is um is very important isn't it it's really important i think people need to feel that they have all the opportunities available to do that in whatever means feels right for them.

And I think I've been struck by listening to you read up people's comments about particularly people reflecting on this being really important, being a political issue, and also just that element of choice that people might apply for some losses, not for others. And that that's that's been one of the most wonderful things about this is empowering people to really think about is this right for you rather than another thing being enforced on on people that you can or you can't this is giving an opportunity for people to stop and reflect and and that there's no rush i think that this is something that you don't have to rush to do it and it is it's meaningful it's emotive so we should take

our time and get support in doing that you know if you need to talk to someone before doing it or talk to someone to help you through that process um because those questions like did you know the gender do you have a name would you like to give this baby a name? Did you have a nickname? They're really moving things and we might need someone to sit alongside us as we delve into that and explore that and sort of bring that, kind of almost solidify that bond

and thicken that story. We shouldn't feel like we have to do that on our own. Yes, and i did say it before but i'll say it again if you do require support um we will provide some links on the woman's our website as we often do after difficult discussions um there's a message here from anne i wanted to share which said um i miscarried in 2001 after surgery surgery enabled me to conceive. The feeling of physical and emotional emptiness was huge. I buried the scan report, the only physical manifestation of the pregnancy I had left in the garden. The idea of a certificate to commemorate an otherwise buried loss really speaks to me.

And I shall be applying when the scheme opens up to those other dates. And again, I'm very sorry indeed. And thank you for that message and being able to share such a personal decision. Your messages are coming in, many of them, as you can imagine. It would be very important to try to come back to some of them, but we'll also keep a record and see if we can pull some of your messages together as well.

But I know that when we do get lots of messages, we always somehow reflect it, I hope, moving forward in our coverage and try to reflect it in other ways. So if I don't come to a message, please do understand that. The number to get in touch with the programme today on this and anything else we're going to discuss is 84844 or you can email through the Woman's Hour website. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most

complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. I did mention this thing called women's intuition. And moving on to that and the idea of, is there such a thing? What does it mean?

Is that actually not something women should be perhaps ascribing to, subscribing to, perpetuating, indulging, however you wish to think about it? It might be something we need to rethink if it is something you even think of and that's an argument or part of an argument being put forward by the journalist and author of a book called Emotional Labour. The journalist

is Rose Hackman and I'm sure she can do a far better job than I than explaining a bit more about why this may be problematic. Rose, very good to have you on the programme. And thanks for talking to us today. Tell me, tell us a bit more about women's intuition. What does some people mean by that?

Because I think some people have very set ideas what that means. Right. Hello. It's great to be here this morning. So women's intuition, I think, is a kind of a bit of an amorphous thing that maybe different people might have different opinions of what it means whether it's having a gut or an instinct that something might happen whether it's being able to tap into intuitively the feelings of the people around you. It's a question that I really delved into at this point nine years ago when I started writing my book Emotional Labour that came out last year and so much of the feedback I was getting initially as a journalist who was looking into emotional labour is you know women are just better at

emotions women are just better intuition and so I set about trying to figure out is this actually true what does the research show? The research is actually pretty damning. And it shows that if women are indeed better at, quote unquote, intuition, it is not because of biology. It's because of subordinate positionality. So it's because we are in this society still expected to cater to the feelings, to the experiences of other people, often men. There's this seminal study from 1985 that pairs up randomly whether women or men into pairings of leaders and subordinates. And what they find is that leaders do not have to express any kind of intuition to their subordinates. Not really very surprising. And subordinates are expected to be extremely perceptive to the expressions of the leader, regardless of gender.

And that's just one of the many, many, many pieces of studies across neuroscience and psychology. Which is fascinating. I'm only coming in at this point. Because some people may be hearing the phrase women's intuition and then hearing emotional labour. And they might be thinking, how do those two things go together? And just before, I think it's fascinating to think. So are you saying there's no such thing as women's intuition?

I am not saying this. I mean, effectively, if I'm trying to be bombastic, I would say there is no such thing as women's intuition. It's subordinate intuition it's it's what you it's what women have had to do to survive the structures put around them in society to emotionally do a lot of heavy lifting and also thrive and survive it's the compensating guesswork of emotions of predictive intuitiveness perceptiveness, that anyone who's in a subordinate position, in this case, women in a patriarchy, are expected to do, have to do, as you say, not just to survive, but to figure ways out to not, you know, ruffle the feathers of the person who has power. The work rounds. I mean, I love this, because by the way, something I'm really doing at the moment, and if you've been a subject of this you may have remembered this if you've if we've ever crossed paths because I do cross

paths with a lot of people because of the line of work I'm in but a thing I'm doing at the moment is I'm not making conversation with people if they're not making an effort back so if I've done a load of questions because you can guess I'm pretty good at that I'm facilitating when I'm off the clock you ain't getting it it's new thing. And it has happened more with men than women, as you may imagine. So I sit in silence with some men and we see what happens. I love that so much. There's this trick with emotional labour, which is a thing in our economy, also in our private lives, of course, so many people refuse to say it's a real thing. They just say it's nonsense, in spite of the fact that it's the central part of millions

of jobs. And one of the best ways to get people to actually see it as real is to withhold it. You know, so if you're a woman, and you're expected to constantly make people feel a tease around you, or you're expected to be terribly good at conversation, and you stop doing it, suddenly, you know, people are very uncomfortable, or you're expected to be terribly good at conversation and you stop doing it suddenly you know people are very uncomfortable because you're withholding that emotional labour that they've actually come to rely on but they refuse to treat as real or even valuable. Yes and it's such a good example I mean you could you've also given examples haven't you in work you know where there's now emotional labour baked into certain roles and those roles are often seen as feminised for instance waitressing as opposed to waitering,

where if you weren't polite when taking somebody's food order, which is a part of that, you would be penalised. It would be commented upon. So you're right that the way to perhaps show something like this is to withdraw it. But just to go back to the difference between emotional labour or how we're talking about emotional labour and women's intuition, how do you explain those two in relation to each other? I mean, emotional labour is the editing work of emotions a person will do on themselves in order to have an effect on the emotions of the people around them. So it's a smile, as you say accurately, or it's questioning

that you will do to make other people feel good inside, regardless of whether you're feeling good inside it's an expectation that we have long placed on women and we have rendered invisible devalued in spite of the fact that's one of the most essential forms of work in our society because it's the work that you know keeps families communities economies going so what's the difference between emotional labor and women's intuition there are so many ways in which we refuse to name emotional labor as real but in our society we talk about basically versions of emotional labor as real women's intuition is one version of emotional labor it's a version of it absolutely it's one of the ways in which we've internalized and actually fixed in place a set of skills and duties and activities that are not just offloaded onto women, but offloaded onto, you know, marginalised communities.

So it's something that, for example, black people might feel like they have to do towards white people. It's definitely something that gets racialised and so on and so forth. In some of your videos where you've been posting on this on social media, in fact, there were, I understand, black people saying this is like racial code. This is this is to that point. Absolutely. you know double bind that they find themselves in the the white mask that black people often whether in the UK in Europe or in America which is where I'm based you know forced into wearing in you know male sorry white dominated societies this is an existential state that actually is very familiar to any of us any grouping it's not again fixed and I think as women we can relate to this kind of

existential state that we're forced into and actually in my videos as you so kindly pointed out a lot of people commented suddenly these big aha moments one person commented this idea that someone looked at him a woman looked at him not like like a hawk, but a mouse. You know, if you've been brought up in, let's say, a family where you have a father or husband who has a very bad temper, the people around that husband, very sadly, are going to be taught to walk on eggshells, are going to be taught to watch that person and be very careful about what they say or do. They're going to be very good at perceptiveness and intuition. They're going to be that defensive emotional labor yes and i mean there will be those perhaps because that's why i asked you to explain about the relationship between emotional labor and um and female intuition

with this idea of women's intuition there will be those who women who who believe though sort of separating that that as women they do have some intuition. There is a knowing or something, you know, whether it's related to child rearing through to just human interaction and being better at perhaps some of that. Are you saying that is there, but it's the reason that it's there? Or are you, you know, the reason that it's there is because of how we've been codified and all the points you've already made? Or are you saying it's not necessarily there you you know the reason that it's there is because of how we've been codified and all the points you've already made or are you saying it's not necessarily there it's just it's I don't know I'm definitely I'm definitely saying it's there it's something we've been trained into being very good at it's something that in fact if we don't do from a young age we're policed

you know if we're not smiling on the street we will be told to smile if we are not smiling at work we will be told we're abrasive we are not smiling at work, we will be told we're abrasive. We will not be given those opportunities that our fellow men will. So what should it be called if it's not called women's intuition? Should it be called forced niceness onto women or forced capacity? I wrote a book called Emotional Labour, so I would argue it needs to be called emotional labour. I suppose that just takes in lots of things, maybe in some people's minds. But yes, you would argue that. And rightly so, I'm sure.

Just with this tiny bit of time we've got left together, I think this is absolutely fascinating. And we've just had, for instance, a message from a nurse saying, I'm a nurse. Emotional labour is a huge thing, invisible, but felt by both nurses, patients and colleagues. It would become visible if we withdrew our emotional efforts. But it is a compulsory part of the role. So this will never happen, says Elaine in Glasgow. So another example away from the serving of food through to the care of patients. So to your point, if it's withdrawn, it's noticed. What are you advising, if you are women in particular, to do when it comes to, if they recognise this do when it comes to when they've if they recognize this when it comes to beyond recognizing it what to do about how to navigate that I mean I think fundamentally whether

you call it emotional labor whether you call it women's intuition it is a superpower that clearly is available to all genders but women are just better at it you know for now I think that when aware with it just like what you're doing, you know, we can choose whether or not we want to be doing it, we can become aware of the degree to which we do it, we can become aware of the degree to which it's expected of us in ways that are not necessarily always fair. I think it's really important when we're having these conversations to also remember that this is a valuable set of traits, it's a valuable skill set. So I'm not saying let's

all go on emotional labor and women's intuition strike it's just a question of actually rendering you know making it visible making it valued and ideally sharing it across you know people groups so that honestly what about men having really good intuition that would be great it would be wonderful you know to have men who are constantly thinking about how they're being perceived and you know what other people are feeling some will say that they do some will be listening to this program i'm sure uh we have lots of male listeners maybe because they're listening to it maybe because they're listening to this program we can say that they do um but it's a very interesting discussion and i know it's a it's a live one for you online as well with um with those

people getting in touch on your your social media feeds Rose Hackman the book's called Emotional Labour uh but a much bigger discussion as well I'm sure for people getting in touch this morning um how does the theory apply with mother and child relationships which we started to cover a message here I feel I preempt how my children will behave because I spend so much time with them says Nicola I mean that again about I suppose who the caregivers are and isn't taking away from it, as you heard, but recognising it and seeing it for what it is. Very interesting indeed. And thank you there to Rose Hackman.

Now, my next guest became international news when an Oscar winning actor tracked her down in a bid to help. Carolyn Hunter spoke out about her sky-high energy bills a couple of years ago because she was struggling to make ends meet. Her annual bill covers powering electronic hoists, high central heating levels and oxygen machines. This is in order to keep her daughter Freya, now 14, alive. Freya has severe cerebral palsy and the machinery needed to help with her breathing, for example, plus heating to keep her warm, was amounting to £6,500 a year, a bill Carolyn

simply couldn't pay. She decided to speak out about her struggle to the BBC a couple of years ago and Kate Winslet happened to read the piece and ended up donating £17,000 to the family, launching a GoFundMe page in the process, which went on to raise even more. First, let's remind ourselves what Kate Winslet had to say about this and about her story, about listening to what Carolyn and Freya were going through. I spoke to Kate Winslet on the programme in December 2022 and she talked about why she wanted to help.

I've always felt enormous compassion for the individual who is in a powerless position through the state of the systems. And especially when it comes to mothers and children and the treatment of children and the lack of care, the lack of acknowledgement that a life is a life. A mother has a right to mother that child in their home on their terms. And the fact that this woman, Carolyn Hunter, was going to have to possibly put her child into care because she couldn't afford her energy bills. I couldn't let that happen. I just couldn't let that happen. I read it on the BBC Scotland news page and we were able to get in touch with her and say to her, look, we'd like to make a donation. Let's set up a page for you and make that possible.

And that was how we were able to set up the fundraising page. I made a donation and what was remarkable and utterly moving to me is that in the six days following my initial donation, what I had donated more than doubled. Incredible there from Kate Winslet. Sorry for the slight delay, but reminding ourselves of what she had to say. Well, we wanted to see how Carolyn and Freya are doing today.

Carolyn is on the line. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for being with us uh it's um it's been a while since there's been a bit of an update and I just wanted to start by by seeing how Freya was doing um since uh the interview that I did with yourselves and Kate did in 22 it's been quite a challenging time for us in terms of Freya's health. Just in December 22, Freya became really ill with flu, flu A, and I did as well. We both became seriously ill with it and Freya ended up in hospital and I ended up, I was not able to look after Freya at all. And that put me into

a really difficult situation because, you know, I provide her with intensive care. And I'm probably the only person that knows Freya, you know, that well that, you know, I can predict, I can foresee what's going to happen with her health. And so I wasn't able to be there. And it was difficult um and she did deteriorate um after after Christmas um and she ended up almost needing to be ventilated that the sound of that I was in the hospital with her at the time I was still very ill and that that this that word um created created a massive trauma response for me um because the last time she'd been ventilated was 10 years before. And that was a really traumatic time for us all as a family. Because my son had been diagnosed with cancer at the same time

and it just took me straight back. So it took me a while to kind of get over that situation. And Freya as well. She was very poorly for a long time. I'm so sorry to hear that I mean you you are as you say her intensive carer and you you do all of this uh and more and have your other children as well we should say um and the what you you did manage to do I suppose through speaking out like you did as well as other things is you managed to raise awareness as to what's going on for those with these very high bills and also trying to do a very very difficult

job indeed and looking after your loved ones and then I suppose on top of that although it was I imagine I mean you tell me what it was like to to have that help you then got a lot more attention again because of Kate Winslet yeah it was it was um I then became Kate Winslet gave me a platform basically all over the world and I was able to to do interviews um you know with in America um you know and it gave in Europe as well and it gave me it gave me a bigger platform and also then meant that if there was any sort of updates about the price cap, I would be called upon to do interviews

and talk about our situation and how difficult it is looking after a child with such intensive care needs. And that, I started, after we got better, I started to do some work with Together for Short Lives. So I did a, I think it was March, I did a documentary. So it was a week long documentary, A Week in the Life of Freya and I. And that then was, that footage was used for,

I was at a round table in government. And that footage was used to show politicians in Westminster and in Scottish Parliament how difficult our lives are and how intensive care, the intensive care that we need to provide for our children and you know it created discussion around well what do we do what just what does the government need to do and you know that that then um sort of triggered um talking about social tariffs and looking at making homes more energy efficient and there was a bill supposed to be coming out and for consultation um and you know we wanted they wanted families to be involved in this that were suffering the energy crisis so there was a lot of um there was a lot of things going on there was also

i was also still doing last year i was still doing in different you know articles in the in the papers um talking about it. I was going to say, no, sorry, I was going to say, and alongside this, you're also continuing to care for Freya and try and, I'm sure, look after yourself a bit as well, if you can, here and there. And that campaigning side of things, although that GoFundMe happened and did alleviate that issue, so to speak.

I know you're very keenly aware of where others are not in that position. Are you still in touch with Kate Winslet? Do you plan to do anything together? Yeah, Kate came to visit us last October and she spent some time with Brea and she also spent time with my older children and then she

took me out for dinner which was lovely and it was nice it was a really nice experience and you know we got on really well yeah it was lovely and then after so once Once, after I'd seen Kate, we had been in touch with GoFundMe and I decided to start a fundraiser to help families like mine with their energy over the winter. And that actually was launched on the day that Freya ended up, she ended up becoming really poorly and she ended up becoming really poorly and she ended up in hospital again and she was really really sick. She had three viruses and a chest infection to deal with. She eventually came home and then at the beginning of this year on the 1st of January she became really sick and had to be ventilated and she was on life support which is still

we're still recovering from that but you know I tried I tried my hardest to do as many sort of interviews as I could with journalists to promote the fundraiser and we managed to raise ten and a half thousand pounds from lots of kind people. And, you know, 70 families were supported, that are supported by the hospice that Freya and I go to for respite. So that was really good. That's incredible as well, in the midst of all of that. It's very good to talk to you again, to hear your voice. All the best to Freya as well.

Thank you. Thinking of her and of you and the whole family. Thank you so much, Carolyn Hunter there, with an update on how Freya's been, which obviously sounds very difficult, and also how she's been, and some of the fundraising efforts and also that relationship, that ongoing relationship

between Carolyn and Kate Winslet. I did say right at the beginning of the programme, I'll tell you a bit more about a breast cancer drug sold under the brand name of Keytruda that could help thousands more women than previously thought. Dr Liz O'Riordan, retired breast surgeon who's actually had breast cancer herself twice, is on the line. I hope to tell us a bit more. Good morning, Liz. Morning, Emma. This is just incredible news. Tell us more. So Keytruda is a drug. It's an immunotherapy drug that we currently use for treating breast cancers that are triple negative, so don't have receptors for oesogen or Herceptin.

And it's improved their survival. But a trial that's been going on for the last eight years has given this to people like me with ER positive breast cancers and it has increased the amount of people whose tumours are disappearing during chemotherapy before the surgery and this could mean thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives could be saved. And this is different to what was thought because is this because of new research or trials with it why is it so different? So at the moment people who have ER positives to oestrogen sensitive cancers are given chemotherapy and drugs to block them producing oestrogen. And the immunotherapy agents were just reserved for triple negative breast cancers because they can't have hormone blockers. But some very clever oncologists thought, why don't we give this to women with oestrogen

sensitive breast cancer as well? And it's shown that it does work and it is effective. Wow. So that is potentially game changing for a lot of women? Completely. And we're now looking at genetic tests to identify the protein this drug works again, so we can actually give the right drugs to the right people rather than using a blanket response. It's really exciting. How soon could this help people? Well, I don't know. It's got to go through the MHRA and NICE to approve it. But because it's been approved for triple negative breast cancer patients, I hope we won't have to wait too the MHRA and NICE to approve it. But because it's been approved for triple negative breast cancer patients, I hope we won't have to wait too long.

And for those listening to this perhaps who aren't as familiar as you are with how all of this works, I mean, is this part of a change generally perhaps about the way we're approaching cancer? People will hear the word immunotherapy. Yeah, so we know that if you have a higher risk of recurrence, there are new treatments we can give you at the beginning with chemotherapy before surgery to stop it coming back, which is saving lives. And that's what we're now looking at with targeted molecular medicine,

drug set target specific proteins. And I'm so excited to see what the future is going to hold. I think when we last spoke, I made a commitment and I did put it in my diary with a repeat reminder to keep checking myself. I haven't done it every single reminder, but I do think of you now when I'm in the shower, which is nice. I'll tell my husband. So that's good. I don't know or not. But you are keen also, I know, to always stress that message to keep women as active participants in their health, aren't you? Yeah. It's really important to check your breasts and to go for your mammograms when you're called

because we know only a third of women are going for their first screening mammogram. If you find breast cancer early, you're less likely to need drugs like chemotherapy and need a mastectomy and it might just save your life. Dr Liz O'Riordan, a retired breast surgeon there with the details as someone who's a patient who's had breast cancer herself twice with the details of this new drug. Now I had a wonderful conversation earlier this week, some of you may have been with me for that at the start of the week with Dame Laura Kenny

she had just announced her retirement when we caught up she's Britain's most successful female Olympian and in our conversation which we went to lots of different places including the fact she doesn't actually love cycling yes you heard that right that the queen of cycling the queen of the Olympics for us from this country doesn't love cycling and it was her mum who got her into it she also explained why she was stepping back and to spend more time with her children

just a sacrifice for me with the kids just it does it's just not worth it now for me um it's just too much and it's too hard to leave them behind um you know for me with albie it felt right it felt like i was 100 committed and i was totally in for going and trying to win another gold medal but this time it felt different from the get-go for me like just initially obviously monty comes along and I found myself not really relying on the grandparents anymore like it was me wanting to look after them and look after him sorry and then my training having to kind of take a back seat I was quite open talking about having a miscarriage and the topic I think maybe that had more of a thing to play in

it than I'd ever kind of realize or anticipated all i ever wanted for albie was a sibling i just always saw albie as a big brother and for that to maybe not happen and for me maybe not to have another baby then once he was here and i did have another one i just didn't want to waste that time maybe i can now sit here and say i took albie for granted a little bit how easy it was to have albie how easy everything seemed at the time i could just ask my parents to come and look after him but this time i just didn't want to someone said to me like was it worth like can can you do both can you have everything and i would say you can yeah like and i could have got

back on the bike and i could have possibly qualified for the next Olympics. But you've got to think it's worth it because in the long run, it's your happiness that you're toying with here, you know. Dame Laura Kenny speaking to me just after she announced her retirement from cycling. I do encourage you to listen to all of that conversation if you can, including hearing about the sport that she could have done instead of cycling. So that's all on BBC Sounds. You just go to Woman's Hour from the edition on Monday, Monday the 18th of March. And she also, a lot of you got in touch, and I couldn't reflect these messages, all of them certainly at the time, to say how honest it was to hear her talking about it being a relief

and also the refreshing nature of how things can change in your own life and also with your relationship, just because of other areas of your personal life, your relationship with how things can change in your own life and also with your relationship, just because of other areas of your personal life, your relationship with your work can change because that's what it is for her, cycling, although it's a joyous thing for us to watch. There's just all those hours and hours and hours that go on behind the scenes.

So a conversation there that a lot of you got in touch about and if you missed it, we just wanted to flag this morning with Dame Laura Kenny, Britain's most successful female Olympian uh who has retired this week so many messages today uh i do realize how difficult um the program has been in some ways but i hope in other ways some of you were saying this uh therapeutic as we um we've gone back to the story of baby loss certificates being issued in england England for the first time. That was an initiative that came about last month. And some of you have received your

certificates. As I said, so have I. It's here in the studio with me and this very official looking document, which isn't actually a legal document, but is a document issued by the government, is in some of your homes now and we've been hearing about that. Maddy says my baby loss certificate has been incredibly healing and although I still feel my losses and I don't feel though that my losses belong in this discussion today hence this message I experienced many failed rounds of IVF which were dismissed as not real losses. When I finally fell pregnant and then sadly lost my son before 12 weeks, I was deeply hurt by how much my early loss was also dismissed.

The certificate is significant to me to know my son was real. My journey has come to an end without a miracle baby, which makes the certificate the only thing I have after five years of trying, says Maddy. I'm so very sorry. There's another message here. Thank you. Listening has made me realise I want to apply for the certificates for my three early losses.

The dates are a blur, as you say, and something I'll need to figure out. My losses span the cut off, so I'm going to wait until I can apply for all at the same time. Thank you so much for highlighting this today. I'm sobbing again. No name on that message, which is completely understandable and fine, but whoever you are, wherever you are, I hope you're going to be okay,

you're going to do okay today, perhaps be with a friend, have a cup of tea, whatever it is that can make you feel a bit better, if possible. Sometimes it's not possible, and that's the point, isn't it? And sometimes you just need to have somebody, I hope, to listen.

And that's what we try to do every day here on Woman's Hour. Thank you very much for your company. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm India Rackerson and I want to tell you a story. It's the story of you. In our series, Child, from BBC Radio 4,

I'm going to be exploring how a foetus develops and is influenced by the world from the very get-go. Then, in the middle of the series, we take a deep look at the mechanics and politics of birth, turning a light on our struggling maternity services and exploring how the impact of birth on a mother affects us all. Then we're going to look at the incredible feat of human growth and learning in the first 12 months of life. Whatever shape the journey takes, this is a story that helps us know our world.

Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.