Woman's Hour - Ballerinas & Babies, Working From Home Safely, Delayed Smear Tests

Episode Date: January 20, 2021

Some top British ballerinas have become new mums during lock-down. In fact, there are so many in the Royal Ballet that they've created a Whatsapp group. We know that being a ballet dancer is competiti...ve and careers can be short, so has lock-down given the chance to get pregnant? Lauren Cuthbertson, is principal of The Royal Ballet and had her baby a few weeks ago, and Tara-Brigitte Bhavnani, first artist of The Royal Ballet, is due in April.There’s been a surge in calls to domestic abuse services. As so many of us are working from home at the moment the Business Minister has written to employers urging them to be a be supportive as they can be, and that means helping victims of abuse in the home. We hear from Paul Scully. When it comes to the Covid vaccine, research from the University of Glasgow indicates that BAME communities are much less likely to get the vaccine if or when it's offered. Reasons include language barriers and misinformation. We hear from Dr Zubaida Haque, as well as children speaking various different languages to persuade their grans and granddads to get the jab. The Welsh Labour MP, Alex Davies-Jones, says she was left without the majority of her cervix because she delayed getting a smear test. She wants to tell other women not to make the same mistake. According to the Chair of the Women and Equalities Select Committee, the MP Caroline Nokes, more then six hundred thousand women could miss their routine smear tests during the pandemic.

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
Starting point is 00:00:42 BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma here with today's episode of the Woman's Hour podcast. Do hope you get something from it. Good morning. On today's programme, we'll be talking to the business minister about the government's advice to employers to monitor their employees' home life for signs of domestic abuse. How feasible that is, we'll be discussing and what you make of it, do let us know on 84844. But afterwards, I'll be joined by two of our top ballerinas with the
Starting point is 00:01:10 Royal Ballet to talk about something which I'm sure you also have a story on. No, not your dancing skills, although you can share those, please feel free. But things that perhaps a lockdown life has let you do. How much, a more restricted existence has perhaps freed you up to do certain things you usually feel or claim you're too busy to do? How it's liberated you? For these two professional dancers and others that they know, it's meant the patter of tiny feet, as they felt they could step off the stage
Starting point is 00:01:38 and allow their bodies the chance to fall pregnant. So we'll be talking about why many ballerinas seem to have had babies or got pregnant or at least tried to get pregnant during this time, this bit of reprieve. What have you done? What has lockdown let you do that you wouldn't normally? Perhaps a small silver lining in all of this.
Starting point is 00:01:57 I personally can't make any more excuses about being too busy to get fit. So I have been starting to try and do that. What have you been doing? 8484444 that's where you can text me on text will be charged at your standard message rate or on social media we're at bbc woman's hour or you can email us through our website let us know what perhaps you've now had the chance to do that normally you wouldn't and we'll be talking to those ballet dancers very
Starting point is 00:02:21 shortly now there's been a surge in calls to domestic abuse services during the pandemic as couples spend more time at home together, or generally people are more at home, whether that's ex-partners also coming to visit, and the majority of calls coming from women. For many victims and survivors, work is usually a place of respite, but not if you're on furlough, or if you've lost your job, of course, or in this
Starting point is 00:02:45 particular instance, which we're going to talk about when working from home, where there is reduced communication with team members, a lack of face-to-face chats with colleagues. Managers and co-workers are often the only other people outside the home that victims talk to each day, which means, according to the government, they're uniquely placed to spot signs of abuse. Last week, the business minister, Paul Scully, wrote to employers, urging them to be a bridge between their workers and offer the support that they need and to spot the signs of domestic abuse. He joins us now. Good morning. Yeah, thanks very much for giving me an opportunity to talk about this because it's obviously nuanced, it's multi-layered, it's not something that we can just deal with
Starting point is 00:03:26 in a soundbite. So thanks for giving me the time to speak about this important subject. There are details to get across. So let's get into that. I mean, it was very striking, Boris Johnson acknowledged domestic abuse was a growing concern
Starting point is 00:03:37 when he specifically mentioned it during the latest lockdown announcement on January the 4th. It was one of the few occasions actually where the stay-at-home rules do not apply. What are the signs you're asking employers to look out for? Well, I think that first of all, when you said it wasn't nuanced, you talked about the fact that it's monitoring home life. It's not about monitoring home life, it's monitoring the well-being of your employees. So what would you look at? If they're in the workplace,
Starting point is 00:04:08 it might be something that has been termed presenteeism, people not wanting to leave work to go back home and staying at work a long time. But it may be a drop-off in productivity. It may be just a change in demeanour. And all we're asking, we don't want to spook employers. I don't want to put onerous burdens on them. We just want to say there is, they don't want to put onerous burdens on them. We just want to say there is, they don't need to be experts. It's okay to ask people if they are okay. This is an extension,
Starting point is 00:04:31 effectively, of looking after someone, your employees' mental well-being. You don't need to be experts. It's okay to ask people if they're okay. That is a very big thing to ask employers, to ask. It's not just asking if you're okay that is a very big thing to ask employers to ask it's not just asking if you're okay i could say to you are you okay but if i'm actually trying to find out if somebody's being abused you've got to say the words well i think when you're looking at abuse i think it's really important to to work to work out what that is what we're trying to do is make people aware of the first of all the the early signs of emotional abuse. That might be coercive control. That might be financial abuse.
Starting point is 00:05:09 And so as an employer, for example, in financial abuse, if there's any sense of that, it might be looking to see if you can pay your salary, that person's salary, into a different account. It doesn't always have to be the physical abuse that you're looking at. But it's not just employers, it's colleagues as well. So if we can raise the awareness, and then, as I say, stress, depression, all of these kind of mental health issues, it's become normal now to look out for those signs. We want to make sure it's normal to look out for the signs of early stage emotional abuse as well. But sorry, you've written to bosses saying they're in this unique position to help. And you've just outlined there some of the ways they could, but they still have to say it.
Starting point is 00:05:53 The idea that you're going to transfer, for instance, somebody's salary into a different account to help them avoid financial abuse. What are you saying bosses should say, and also colleagues, but you did write to employers, what should they say to somebody who's working for them, either at home or in the office, or wherever they are, that they suspect is being abused? Well, essentially, first of all, it's reaching out. It's opening up the conversation. It's basically making employers aware of the case that, you know, what they can do, the kind of conversation openers, the kind of support that they can get from Hestia, for example, who have come up with a Bright Sky app, which has a lot of resource for employers, for work colleagues to start and open those conversations. The Employers Initiative on Domestic Abuse as well. There's lots of results on their advice
Starting point is 00:06:45 that they can have but could you give us an example of a sentence i would say as a boss to a member of staff it's it's it's really asking if there's anything more they can do i'm just you know just recognizing that they are uh looking stressed that there's a drop off in in performance and what what you what you tend to find otherwise is employees if they are bottling up uh worries i've actually got a case i have a work colleague which got me interested in this two years ago who in a previous job had been um subject to emotional abuse and she was really afraid of raising it with her employer because she thought if there's a drop-off in productivity, that would be held against her in terms of her career progression, when actually all she needed was someone to say,
Starting point is 00:07:32 you know what, it's okay, take a little bit of breathing space, let me make your working conditions a little bit more flexible. But that's slightly different. Go ahead. That's slightly different. I totally understand trying to make work a place where you can approach your boss and you can tell people what's happening. But what you wrote to the government last week, wrote to employers, was about employers talking to to you is as well-intentioned as that could be, this is an absolute minefield that you've just said to employers at a time where a lot of them are struggling to stay afloat during a pandemic. Say to staff members, are you being abused? Well, exactly. It is a minefield. And
Starting point is 00:08:18 that's why we're signposting that sort of support for the employers, not necessarily the massive HR policies in place, the big multinationals, the small businesses as well, who have maybe more interaction on a day to day basis with their smaller teams. That's exactly what we're saying. Yes, it can be minefield. So don't be a psychologist, don't be a counsellor, go out and actually look for your support and open up the dialogue. But we're just trying to first of all, raise awareness of domestic abuse. Don't overcomplicate it.
Starting point is 00:08:52 Make sure that you're being inclusive. Ask what you can offer. Don't overcomplicate it. Make a support. Have a policy there that people know so that they can approach you as well. That's very clear and that you can understand. But you've just said yourself, it's a minefield. You've got to be 100% sure that something's going on with that person to say it. I mean, people struggle to have conversations about schedules at work and
Starting point is 00:09:16 taking leave. Can you actually imagine a boss? We went to a boss yesterday who's got nearly 40,000 staff and they said to us i can't handle this i can't deal with trying to talk to people about this in which case i'm going to tell your boss to go and speak to vodafone who came up with the bright school app tell them to go to lloyd's banking group who uh who do amazing work with their with both their um their number of employees and their customers in terms of financial abuse to see what's going on. All I'm saying is, yes, it's a minefield. Yes, it can be gone. But clearly, don't just open up a conversation that are you being abused?
Starting point is 00:09:52 It's way more nuanced than that. So it's all about spotting the signs of stress, of mental pressure, health pressure, and then just finding that support, that signposted support to then get those conversations toers, to get to that point somewhere down the line because it may not be domestic abuse and clearly you don't want to be trampling on other areas of stress. But it's just knowing that it's OK to look out for support, especially if you're a small business. What have businesses said to you about this? Have you had any response from last week beyond the businesses you've just named? Yeah, we've had, so we put out a call to evidence. We had 126 responses to that. We've done some domestic,
Starting point is 00:10:34 we've done some roundtables as well. We're going to be keeping some roundtables going to get best practice that we can share with other people. We want to have consultation, what more we can be doing with employers as well. So we worked with businesses and representatives like the Employers Initiative on Domestic Abuse, who have many, many employers signed up to them of all sizes as well. People like Elizabeth Filkin that heads that up, who can actually, who've got really positive responses
Starting point is 00:11:04 and great examples of work and policies that are in place by those employers. Can I just ask you about this while we have you on the line? Campaigners are taking the government to court on Thursday over claims it's discriminated against self-employed women who've had a baby in the last four years. Under the Self-Employed Income Support Scheme, payments to compensate for losses caused by COVID are based on an average of profits between 2016 and 2019. If you've had a
Starting point is 00:11:32 baby in the last four years, you can understand why that's going to have impacted you negatively. Why was this allowed to happen? Why has the government got this blind spot? In terms of the support that we've given over um over covid we put 280 billion pounds worth of support out there to put that in context it's 130 odd billion pounds is the nhs budget each year and so we put that out of place um and uh but you forgot but you forgot about pregnant people but you forgot about pregnant women look but clearly there are people falling between the cracks and that's why we continue to work and flex with our support, extending the furlough, changing the loan schemes,
Starting point is 00:12:08 extending the self-employment schemes. But clearly, if there was a court case there, then they'll have their day in court and I wouldn't want to comment on a legal challenge that's coming forward. But does it look like, as a business minister, does it look like you forgot about pregnant women in that calculation?
Starting point is 00:12:24 No, it's not about forgetting about pregnant women. It's about trying to work with as many people as possible in a fluid situation, in such a fast moving situation as the pandemic that we've had over a period of time so we can wrap our arms around the economy, protect as many jobs as we can and clearly try to fill the cracks as we see them, as things do change or as situations are uncovered. We've got many messages about our broader discussion that we've just been having in detail around your ideas with employers and domestic abuse.
Starting point is 00:12:53 I'll go through those in a moment, but let me thank you, Business Minister Paul Scully, for your time this morning. A message here saying, you cannot rescue a domestic violence victim until they are ready to be rescued. My employer saved me 20 years ago and I will be eternally grateful. Other people getting in touch are saying training is very important.
Starting point is 00:13:13 Sue says you should not ask directly if they are being abused. It's like putting a jigsaw puzzle together. Look for little signs and report to HR or train managers to look for all the little signs discussed by your speaker. A TUC survey showed that the majority of domestic abuse victims believed their colleagues on some level knew. That's come in from Helen. More messages on that. Thank you. I'll come back to them shortly. You're also getting in touch with our discussion around what has lockdown and restricted life in many ways allowed you to do that perhaps you haven't been able to do before? A message here. I've loved lockdown. I've been left in peace and not been bothered by people interrupting my painting, Emma.
Starting point is 00:13:53 And another one says it's been a chance to remove FOMO from my life. Fear of missing out. I'm in my early 40s with a young child, but have younger colleagues who like to be social and go out drinking. I felt pressure to join in and say yes to anything, although half the time I didn't want to be there. Now that's gone away. Lockdown's given me a real opportunity to not have to be out late night drinking at the weekend and not feel like I have to say yes when I'd really prefer to be curled up with a movie or a book. Well, why are we talking about this?
Starting point is 00:14:19 It's because some of Britain's top ballerinas have become new mothers during lockdown. The patter of tiny and probably very talented feet. There are so many new mums in the Royal Ballet Company that they've created a WhatsApp support group. In an industry where careers are short and pregnancy may mean missing out on a coveted role, has the lockdown and the shuttering of theatres provided some dancers with a unique opportunity and reprieve to get pregnant, to reclaim their own bodies. I'm joined now by Lauren Cuthbertson, Principal of the Royal Ballet,
Starting point is 00:14:49 who had her baby Peggy a few weeks ago, and Tara Bavani, first artist of the Royal Ballet, who is expecting in April. Congratulations to both of you. Lauren, if I may start with you. Very recently had your baby, Peggy. How are you doing? I think I'm doing as well as I can be doing. I suppose during a pandemic, it's a bit hard to get the usual help that I think I would normally have. Obviously, my mum would normally be with me,
Starting point is 00:15:19 but it's too dangerous for her to be in London, etc et cetera. So I'm just doing the best I can. But Peggy's glorious and I feel very fortunate to actually be spending my time hunkering down with her. And a few more babies in the company as well. Lots of babies in the company, actually. And for those of us having babies and have had babies, it's actually a really lovely sort of network of new mothers who sort of help each other out. And we've got a wonderful WhatsApp group together, an NTT Royal Ballet group, which we communicate on with a lot. I remember interviewing a few people in your trade a few years ago and, you know, the discipline and what you have to do to keep your bodies where they're meant to be and to just make sure you are at the top of your game is extraordinary.
Starting point is 00:16:07 Has it been a relief? If I can be, well, I will be totally honest. It's actually a bit, at this very moment, it's a distant memory and something that I'm itching to get back to. But I know that I will have to sacrifice time with Peggy and energy for Peggy to do that. And that fills me with a bit of anxiety right in this very second, but I'm sure I do want to get my career sort of back on track. And I'm sort of at that peak moment where you get a few years to really ride the wave as it were. So I don't want to miss out on all the work that I've put
Starting point is 00:16:42 put into my career so far to miss out on that sort of sweet spot. So I will do it. But at the moment, it's something that I know will take a lot of effort. Were there discussions amongst you before? You know, there seemed to be this spate that I'm going to try. Are you thinking of it? We've got this opportunity or did it all just kind of happen quite organically? As far as I'm aware, it was quite organic, but I'm not sure. Maybe some of the other girls on the chat group share a dressing room and things like that, so maybe they were already conspiring, but I'm not 100% sure about that.
Starting point is 00:17:17 I just wondered, you know, it's one of those things perhaps that people have talked about. Tara, welcome to the programme. Thank you. I know you're expecting, when's the baby due? So baby's due April 25th. Tara, welcome to the programme. Thank you. I know you're expecting, when's the baby due? So baby's due April 25th. Okay, soon. Got a few more months. All the best for that. We should say, you know, not easy to get pregnant on demand. You can't sort of fit it into to a window and it's not necessarily been straightforward for you. Yeah, so I actually fell pregnant the day before the first lockdown
Starting point is 00:17:47 started. I found out I was pregnant. So it was very, you know, I had such mixed emotions about it because I was so excited. But then, you know, lockdown was happening. And unfortunately, a couple of months later, I had a miscarriage. So it was heartbreaking. It was devastating, especially during the lockdown when you're already isolated. So it was a really tricky time. And I was almost in my second trimester. So my body had changed already and I had to get through it and eventually focus on something else. And of of course one of those big things had to be getting back to my career um so so so I did and I I had to get in shape again and and I mean all the while my colleagues are our fellow dancers are you know they had to be ready
Starting point is 00:18:38 to perform at a moment's notice which was inspiring but for me it was daunting because I had to get back into that sort of shape um and you've done it before haven't you because you already have a little one that's right I do have a daughter who's who's three now um and how hard is it to to get back into your career after having a baby it was tricky um it took for personally, it took quite a bit of time. I took six months off before starting to get back into shape after having her, which is becoming more common. I think a lot of dancers do take just a couple months, two, three months before starting back.
Starting point is 00:19:18 But I took quite a bit longer, and then eventually it took me another good few months to get back onto stage because I had some illnesses as well. I was diagnosed with glandular fever and postpartum thyroiditis. So I had a few battles along my way, but it was a sweet moment when I was back on stage in a tutu and had my daughter there as well. It must have been lovely. Lauren, to come back to you, you've actually played the role of a pregnant queen, Hermione, in A Winter's Tale back in 2014. Here's a little clip from the ballet where you tell your in the form of dance, we should say. There are no words there. I see you swaying at home in your Zoom in your pyjamas there.
Starting point is 00:20:32 But did you... Super drug test kit there. Yeah, here's the test. You had to wear a pregnancy suit for that role. How did that affect how you danced, having to feel like you were pregnant and the waiting well actually looking back in hindsight I think what was really clever about when we rehearsed that production is from the from day one I had the prosthetic bump so we didn't make
Starting point is 00:20:55 any of the pregnant scenes without the without me wearing a prosthetic bump during the rehearsal so it obviously doesn't carry the same weight as a baby knowing knowing that now, but it does resemble the shape of it. And it's sort of quite uncomfortable because you get very sweaty with it and things like that. So it did help a lot. And do people carry on being on the stage when they are pregnant? Can you do it? Yeah, people do. People will dance until four or five months sometimes. I think what gets quite dangerous is the lifting and any of the impact. I, A, we were on lockdown, but I was actually diagnosed with MCMA twins at the very beginning of my
Starting point is 00:21:32 pregnancy. So I was sort of on bedrest and skiving from the Zoom ballet classes. So I had a very, it was not a very physical pregnancy for me, but I know dancers who will perform until they really feel like they can't be lifted and they can't do the jumps and the pirouettes anymore for danger to the baby, not really because of themselves.
Starting point is 00:21:52 Leotards are quite good maternity wear, I imagine as well. Stretchy. Stretch and stretch and stretch. Tara, you're still in that place. I wonder if I could ask you this though, because a ballet dancer's career is quite short. As you've described, recovering takes a while.
Starting point is 00:22:10 And if you look at, for instance, Dame Margot Fonteyn, one of Britain's most renowned ballerinas, she didn't have children. Do you feel in times gone by, people, women in your profession didn't do this because they were worried? Absolutely. You know, our career is so short and, you know, by sort of 40 or so, more or less, it's, you know, you're nearing towards the end of your career. But it's becoming more acceptable and I think the ballet world is embracing it that you can do both, although it's hard, especially coming back after having a baby,
Starting point is 00:22:46 but also performing once you have a child. You know, there's sacrifices that you have to make nevertheless. Would you have got pregnant, Lauren, if it hadn't been lockdown? I've got a few messages here saying, for instance, I got pregnant too. Lockdown was actually part of our decision. We thought it'd make the pregnancy easier working from home. As it turned out, I was vomiting for the first three months. So on voluntary furlough, and it was such a lifeline to keep incoming income coming in a message there that we just got and very grateful to be feeling better now looking forward to a June baby but would you have done it if we hadn't had lockdown I will I wanted to do it um lockdown or no lockdown it's something that I definitely wanted to do but I could also say that
Starting point is 00:23:25 I possibly would have waited and then maybe missed the boat so I think I got lucky I think I got lucky in terms of having the courage to see the sort of slight window of opportunity but also being the right moment in my life and having met my boyfriend, who I felt like it was sort of all possible with. Well, there is a mantra I'm told that you have relied on or are relying on from Hermione in A Winter's Tale. What is that? So it's, I must be patient until the heavens look with an aspect more favourable. Well, I think we should all write that down for general life at the moment, yeah? Yeah, it's really just the most incredible quote from The Winter's Tale. Well, I think we should all write that down for general life at the moment, yeah?
Starting point is 00:24:09 Yeah, it's really just the most incredible quote from The Winter's Tale. And as soon as I read that quote, I realised what an incredible woman Hermione was. And I thought, she's the kind of woman I'd like to be one day. Well, we wish you both well and all of your colleagues as well. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us today. Lauren Cuthbertson there and Tara Brigitte Bavlani, first artist of the Royal Ballet, who's expecting in April. All the best to you, Tara, as well. Messages coming in about what you've been able to do in lockdown
Starting point is 00:24:35 because of more restricted living. I've been swimming in the sea over winter. I never thought I'd be able to do this, but it's mind over matter, albeit it's very cold. Lots of other women swim too and then sit on the beach with a cup of tea chatting. What could be better, says Katie in Dorset. I love the cup of tea, but not so keen on being as cold as you may have been. Thank you for sharing that, though, and do keep those messages coming in.
Starting point is 00:24:58 And of course, if you missed the start of the programme or any part of the programme you want to catch back up, we're always available at any time on BBC Sounds. Now, we've learned a lot from this pandemic, including that COVID-19 poses a greater risk to people within the Black, Asian and minority ethnic communities. And figures from the first wave showed that people from these groups were twice as likely to die, meaning that vaccination really could be a lifesaver, except research is now showing that those communities are also much less likely to take the vaccine when it's offered. The vaccines minister, Nadeem Zahawi, has been speaking about his concerns in this area. A reported 72% of black people, for instance, say they're unlikely or very unlikely to get the jab. That's despite black African women having a death rate four times higher than white women.
Starting point is 00:25:43 The rates for Pakistani women are also very similar. Reasons for this vaccine scepticism include language barriers, misinformation about what's actually inside the vaccine, that there's perhaps pork or alcohol in it, or that it goes against religious beliefs in some way. There are also more spurious conspiracy theories, like it's somehow changing your DNA. So what can be done to help get the right messages
Starting point is 00:26:06 across? Dr Zubeda Huck is a social scientist on Independence Stage and joins us now. What would you say to people about this? What is the way to get to these people who are concerned? Well, first of all, I think what we need to do, Emma, is distinguish between anti-vaxxers and people who have vaccine hesitancy. Anti-vaxxers are the people who don't believe in vaccines whatsoever, no matter how much you try and convince them. Whereas people who have vaccine hesitancy, which in this instance includes Black and ethnic minority groups, but Emma also includes people from deprived areas, Eastern European groups, You know, there's been lots of studies done to show that there are lots of people out there who have vaccine hesitancy. Those people have, generally speaking, legitimate
Starting point is 00:26:53 concerns about the vaccine, legitimate questions. And also many of their issues about safety are also based on historical experiences, if you like, with health services, with vaccine trials that haven't included them very much in the actual research and so on. So vaccine hesitancy is an important issue and it needs to be addressed. Otherwise, we will be perpetuating the very inequalities that we've seen in this pandemic. There's been work with people trying to make videos, for instance, where there was a teacher who's from Lancashire who was talking about using children, as she's done,
Starting point is 00:27:33 these videos online, to try and explain in different languages to grandparents, to fellow parents, as to why they should be vaccinated. How important is that sort of work? It's critical and it needs to be certainly one part of the whole solution to a national public information campaign. And that's what you need. What's wonderful is that there are people out there who are taking it upon themselves to come out with bespoke videos, bespoke podcasts, working with local communities.
Starting point is 00:28:09 But what we need is this on a national scale where the government works very closely with public health professionals locally, with community organisations, with GPs. GPs are very trusted. Research has shown that, you know, that if GPs, for instance, if GPs had rolled out or been an integral part of the test and trace, which, by the way, has wholly failed in this country, then arguably more people will have come forward. And we know that the test and trace has failed because it hasn't reached out to the very vulnerable communities on the ground. So you need a much more national model of Unite that works with local people, with local organisations, and that tries to reach these people. Because otherwise, Emma, we will have a double tragedy with Black and
Starting point is 00:28:57 ethnic minority groups, the very groups that have been two to three times more likely to die with COVID-19, unless they take up vaccines, unless they take up that offer, unless they have trust and faith, they will be much more likely to die and inequality will get wider. We've actually got an example of what some children have been doing to speak to their grannies and granddads. Let's have a listen to that. I love you. And here's my hand to hold for the coronavirus vaccine. One there to Rosalto and Stan, I love you. And here's my hand to hold for the coronavirus vaccine. An insight into some of the ways children are trying to communicate with a variety of languages from the British Asian community.
Starting point is 00:30:29 And the teacher, actually, that I was mentioning is Neetal Parak, and she's put some of those together and you can find more of them online and I know that you're a you're a social scientist on independent stage could you just tell us what you're you're doing in that role and how that could fit together with this? Well my background is very much it's very much to do with equality I've worked for government for 15 years so I know a lot about public But, and I'm also the former interim director of the Runnymede Trust, which is a race equality think tank. Now, the issues of equality in this pandemic have been absolutely critical. And we've seen that, that people in deprived areas, that black and ethnic minority groups are two to four times more likely to die from COVID-19 because of their pre-existing inequalities.
Starting point is 00:31:05 And it is absolutely shocking that even though we've known about this pre-existing inequalities, even before the pandemic, even though the government carried out three reviews, Emma, last summer, looking at the disparities, that so little has been done to protect these communities. And I think our fear in independent SAGE at the moment is that so little has been done to protect these communities. And I think our fear in independent SAGE at the moment is that so little has been done to address the gaps and inequalities for these vulnerable groups that we're worried that it will be repeated in vaccine trials. Now, at the moment, the government have basically put all their eggs into one basket in saying that the vaccine is the way out of this pandemic, which arguably it isn't. But that's what they're saying. Now, if they are saying that, what they need to ensure is that there's full coverage of vaccine take-up. And at the moment, because of pre-existing issues around trust and safety, and right now, you know, black and ethnic minority groups, I think, have every right
Starting point is 00:32:05 to ask, how can we trust these vaccines, given you've done nothing? You've done nothing to address the inequalities that have put us here in the first place. Those issues do need to be addressed. We heard a tweet saying, hi, Woman's Hour, I'm black. I don't know any black person who says they won't take the vaccination. Nobody. Another one here saying if you actually do want to know why people avoid vaccines, it's because the country lets the government off the hook every time they lie. So there's no trust. So a couple of points on this while we're talking. Zubeda, from your point of view, we've seen this this teacher, for instance, and also she's a parent, try and have a go at getting through to parts of the communities that perhaps aren't
Starting point is 00:32:45 getting uh being getting through how important is it to go through those routes of of the parents of the grandparents and and are there other things that you're seeing that kind of you know can get to where government can't get well it's it's absolutely important but it's absolutely important, but it's absolutely critical that we try every route and avenue to address people's concerns, fears and questions. But I have to say, Emma, we can't put everybody into one box. I mean, different people will have different concerns. So at the moment, if you don't mind me saying just just to step back a bit. One of the things Independent SAGE, we're working on at the moment, is a question and answer document about the vaccine, because we've had so many questions, questions varying from, can I, you know, I'm trying to have a baby, should I still be taking
Starting point is 00:33:36 the vaccine, to actually, you know, given the unethical historical research that has been carried out with vaccines in the past, can I trust that as a black person, I won't be overlooked again, that my safety concerns won't be compromised? Two, you know, actually, now that the government has said that the doses have spread out much more, instead of it being within a couple of weeks, it's now going to be 12 weeks or more. And I still say all these questions are absolutely critical. And for BME communities, they share all those questions. But on top of that, there are issues about trust. You know, historically, vaccine trials haven't always included BME communities,
Starting point is 00:34:19 just as we know that historically health research hasn't always been. Oh, black women. Sorry, your line. No, your line just froze for a second. But yes, we've understood that point. And I think it's it's an important one to to address. Dr. Zubeda-Huck, thank you very much for your time, a social scientist there on Independence Stage and some of the stuff they're doing as a wider committee. Your message is coming in about this, but also still coming in around perhaps what you've done differently during this very unusual time and perhaps how you're living slightly differently,
Starting point is 00:34:51 having been inspired by listening to the ballerinas we were talking to just before. I'm treasuring the one-to-one walks with friends, Emma. It's been an opportunity to get to know people in a different way. Lockdown and last year's strange world has been a chance to breathe and recalibrate my life, says Sandy. I began an online illustration MA at Falmouth University in June, which has been a fantastic engaging challenge. I've loved the creativity and
Starting point is 00:35:14 challenges that sprung from the course. It's connected me to a new world and to many fantastic fellow students. Now, the Welsh Labour MP Alexies-Jones says she was left without the majority of her cervix because she delayed getting a smear test. And she's now talking out to tell other women not to make the same mistake as it's emerged that more than 600,000 women could miss their routine cervical cancer screening during the pandemic. Alex is on the line and joins us now. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. What happened to you? Well, what happened to me? I had my first letter to attend my first ever smear test back in December 2015. And unfortunately, like so many people, I put it off. It was something that I was very
Starting point is 00:36:00 nervous of, quite anxious about doing. It was Christmas time. So as you can imagine, all the parties were happening at the time. And I just felt I was too busy to go. It was something I could put off. And then fast forward to April 2016, I had my reminder letter to attend, was chatting with friends about how I'd had my reminder, I hadn't gone. And the, you know, the conversations came, oh, you need to go. We discussed, you you know the preventable early death of jade goody that came up and how how it was important to attend um so i made the appointment and i attended and then um everything changed and it was how old were you at the time i was i turned 25 that april 25 you hadn't had children at that point you've only recently had your little one yeah tell us what happened next I went to the smear test it was um awkward
Starting point is 00:36:46 five minutes um uh quite unpleasant um and thought no more of it and then I had the letter to say that my cells had come back abnormal and I needed to attend a colposcopy so um a more invasive examination of my cervix to check on the extent of the abnormal cells um I went for the colposcopy and again I was diagnosed with something called CIN3 so so carcinoma in situ of the cervix to the highest grade before cervical cancer, which was graded three. So I needed to attend some laser treatment, attended for the laser treatment. Unfortunately, that didn't get rid of the majority of the cells. So I needed to have a large cone biopsy of my cervix, which removed a huge proportion of my cervix, the majority of it. But it did fortunately get all of the abnormal cells and no further treatment
Starting point is 00:37:32 was needed. But I was put on routine smears then for the next couple of six months cycle. And unfortunately, they're all clear. Left without the majority of your cervix. How were you feeling at the time having gone through this? It was, apart from the time when my son was in the neonatal unit, it was the most terrifying experience of my life where you don't expect to be dealing with questions of morality and your future fertility at the age of 25. It was hugely daunting. I kept a journal at the time, which was really therapeutic for me, just to keep notes of all the medical
Starting point is 00:38:05 jargon and to discuss my feelings with myself because there was nobody I felt there was nobody I could talk to either none of my friends had been through this my mother had never experienced anything like this um so the only people I could talk to thankfully were um Joe's Trust Joe's Cervical Cancer Trust they have a forum where you can talk to people who have experienced this we've gone through similar and I found that as my lifeline. I would be up in the early hours of the morning on that forum, just talking to people, trying to reassure myself and trying to prepare myself for what was to come. I mean, it's one of those things, isn't it? You put it off, you put it off, you think it's not going to happen to me. You'll now obviously feel very passionate
Starting point is 00:38:44 about speaking out about this. But it is, as I said, not going to happen to me. You'll now obviously feel very passionate about speaking out about this, but it is, as I said, against the backdrop that more than 600,000 women could miss their routine cervical cancer screening because of the pandemic for a whole range of reasons, not least the usual ones where you do put it off. Let's just have a listen to this because Caroline Noakes, the Conservative MP, she's the chair of the Women and Equality Select Committee, was actually asking Boris Johnson on the liaison committee last week about this very issue. I wanted to ask about access to health care during the pandemic.
Starting point is 00:39:16 We know that more men than women have been impacted by Covid, but the evidence shows that it's women who are finding access to specific services difficult. I was contacted by a constituent yesterday who was told that her surgery is not currently doing smear tests. What is your response to her when she says how long is it acceptable for her to have to wait to get her smear test? Well, obviously, I sympathise very much with anybody who's had any service or treatment in the NHS delayed as a result of the pressure on the NHS. And sadly, that's what we are seeing. We're seeing delays in cancer. We're seeing delays in smear tests and vital services that people need. And that's as a result of the increase
Starting point is 00:40:06 in the numbers of COVID patients. And that's why we've got to work flat out to get the virus under control and reduce the current wave and give people the service that we need. And what I would say to your constituents, I'm very sorry for the delay that we need. And what I would say to your constituents, I'm very sorry for the delay that she's experiencing. Bring you back into this, Welsh Labour MP Alex Davis-Jones,
Starting point is 00:40:32 who's still with us. Having been through this yourself, what would you like to say to women listening who are either putting it off like you were, or perhaps because of the pandemic, just think, oh, well, I better not bother the NHS? I would say, please don't put it off. I will sadly never know if things would have been different for me if I hadn't have delayed having my smear test at the time. The NHS is still open for business. I know it can seem scary and a smear test is never pleasant at the best of times, let alone in a worldwide pandemic.
Starting point is 00:41:00 But I've made the next appointment for my smear test this Thursday. My GP is still carrying out these life-saving screening tests. Please check when you would do for your checkup and please go and make your appointment when you are called to make yours. Alex Davis-Jones, thank you very much for your time today. And of course, people being contacted, pay heed to that. Look at what you're receiving in the post. Try and make it work. Of course, there could also be delays. I just want to read a couple more messages before we go to our drama. So many of you have been getting in touch today, which is great.
Starting point is 00:41:32 You've been telling us what you've been doing during these moments of restriction in our lives. Emma, I'm attempting to read the Bible in a year. Never done it before. There you go. Cindy says, when Boris Johnson announced lockdown in March 2020, I had to put my business on hold.
Starting point is 00:41:47 So I dusted down a copy of How to Bake Bread by Paul Hollywood. Other bakers available. And haven't looked back. Find it very relaxing. I've learned a new skill. I'm no longer buying bread.
Starting point is 00:41:56 Also, I've learned Welsh as I have two baby grandsons whose first language is Welsh. And I'm enjoying exploring local, new walks, running and the running routes too. All keeping me reasonably sane until I can be a hands-on granny again. Cindy, thank you very much. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. It's called The Infinite Monkey Cage with me, Robin Ince, and... Me, Brian Cox. And it's going to be, I think, more educational than whatever it is that you just listened to because we're going to consider subjects such as the nature of reality,
Starting point is 00:42:31 which encompasses whatever it is that you just listened to. So, yeah, Jan 11, Eric Idle, Frank Wilczek, Sarah Pascoe, Ross Noble, Chris Jackson, Alan Davis, David Hill. There's a huge number of people talking about many big ideas. There won't be that many equations. There might be one equation, won't there, Brian? There will, and also Erica McAllister, Lady of the Flies, very 2021. And you can hear The Infinite Monkey Cage on BBC Sounds. Yeah, there's hundreds of them,
Starting point is 00:42:52 actually. Hundreds, loads of them. Who would have thought you could do over 100 episodes about everything that's in the universe? There's a lot more than I first imagined. That's why you're a comedian, not a scientist. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.
Starting point is 00:43:12 I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?
Starting point is 00:43:23 From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

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