Woman's Hour - Barbara Lisicki & Ruth Madeley, US basketball player Brittney Griner, Red Nose Day, Inclusive Britain, Native children in the US

Episode Date: March 18, 2022

Brittney Griner is 6 foot 9. She's an American basketball player, some say she's the greatest female basketball player of all time and she is currently being detained in Russia on drug charges that could carry a sentence of up to 10 years in prison. Overnight Russian courts have extended her detention for two more months. All this while tensions between Russia and the States remain tense and her family worry she may be used as a political pawn. Molly McElwee, the Telegraph's Women's Sports reporter explains.To mark Red Nose Day Ena Miller visits a Comic Relief supported project helping survivors of domestic abuse. At Tower House Horses they use equine assisted learning to help women improve their mental health and recover their confidence. A woman we are calling Sophie tells her story and Susie, one of the co-founders of the project, explains how horses help women who have been through trauma. Yesterday the government set out its plans to address racial disparities in the UK with changes to policing, health and education. Inclusive Britain: the government response to the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities sets out 70 plans including ones to tackle the differences in maternal health to ones referring to police powers. There also includes a plan to get a diverse panel of historians to, as the report puts it, ‘develop a new knowledge rich History Curriculum by 2024 exploring Britain’s historical past’. But how would that actually work in practice? Kendra Mylnechuk Potter was adopted into a white family and raised with no knowledge of her Native background. A new film 'Daughter of a Lost Bird' currently showing at the Human Rights Watch Film Festival follows Kendra as she connects with her birth mother April, also a Native adoptee, and discovers her Lummi homelands in Washington state. Her story has parallels with many of those children affected by the 1958 Indian Adoption project, where Native children in the US were removed from their families and placed in white homes, dubbed by some as' cultural genocide'. In the late1970s the Indian Child Welfare Act came into force which prioritised keeping native Indian children within their own tribes. Anita speaks to Kendra and to the filmmaker Brooke Pepion Swaney. The history of civil rights changed when Barbara Lisicki met Alan Holdsworth. The two were disabled cabaret performers in the 1980s when they met, fell in love and founded the disabled people’s Direct Action Network (DAN). They became the driving force behind the campaign that ultimately led to the passing of the 1995 Disability Discrimination Act. A new BBC Two drama, Then Barbara Met Alan, tells their story. We hear from the real-life Barbara Lisicki, and Ruth Madeley, the actor who plays her. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Molly McElwee Interviewed Guest: Susan Little Interviewed Guest: Dr Angelina Osborne Interviewed Guest: Stella Dadzie Interviewed Guest: Brooke Pepion Swaney Interviewed Guest: Kendra Mylnechuk Potter Interviewed Guest: Ruth Madeley Interviewed Guest: Barbara Lisicki Photo Credit: BBC/Dragonfly

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Stories. We're going to hear lots of stories today. Stories of how women have changed the course of history. Disability rights activist Barbara Lisicki has had her remarkable story made into a brilliant new drama. She'll be along to tell us about the struggle to get rights rather than charity. We're also going to hear Kendra's story. She's the subject of a new documentary where she traces her birth mother.

Kendra is Native American, but was adopted by a white family as a baby. And through the course of the film, she learns not only her birth mother's story, but also about her Native American ancestry and discovers a huge extended family. Now, stories of our past shapers and grounders and can inform how we view the world. But how and what history do we tell, particularly in schools? schools. A new race report came out yesterday, which states, we will ensure that how our past is taught in schools encourages all pupils, whatever their ethnicity, to feel an authentic sense of belonging to a multi-racial UK. So how do you do that? And what stories do you tell? I'll be discussing that shortly in the show. And of course, as always, I want to hear from you. Your comments on any of the subjects covered in the next hour are warmly welcomed, but also I want to hear your story or rather something you've discovered about your past,

your family that you didn't know and maybe had a profound effect on you, made you see the world in a new way perhaps, blown your mind about something you thought you knew but had no clue about, skeletons in the closet that have made you reconsider your views on something. Stories, shapers. So what have you learned about your history that has shaped you? You can get in touch in the usual way. You can text on 84844. The text will be charged at your standard message rate. So do check with your network provider for extra costs. And of course, contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour.

Or if you fancy dropping me an email, you can go to our website. I want to hear your story today. But first, Brittany Griner is six foot nine. She's an American basketball player. Some say she's the greatest female basketball player of all time. And she's currently being detained in Russia on drug charges that could carry a sentence of up to 10 years in prison. Overnight, Russian courts have extended her detention for two more months. Britney, like many other WNBA stars, play in countries like Russia during their off-season

to supplement paychecks that are a fraction of their counterpart's salaries in the mail game. All this while tensions between Russia and the States are incredibly tense and many worry she may be used as a political pawn. Well, joining me now to tell us more about this story is Molly McElwee, who's The Telegraph's women's sports reporter. Welcome to Women's Hour, Molly. So tell us a bit more about Brittany. How well is she known in the States?

Morning. Yeah, Brittany, I mean, she's one of women's basketballs, but also just basketball's great. Sadly, it's really she's a complete force. And she's got two Olympic gold medals to her name, one WNBA title with the Phoenix Mercury, which has been her team since she was drafted as a first pick in 2013. And you mentioned her height there. It means I think she's one of the tallest players in the league so she's led the league in blocks for nine seasons she became only the third player to dunk in the league so she because of that dunking especially she's become a bit of an icon

um as that's not a very common kind of way to play the game on the women's side of things. Yeah, she's also really prominent because she's a really prominent LGBTQ plus advocate. She's the first openly gay athlete to be signed by Nike, which was huge for sport generally when she was signed. So, yeah, she's pretty well known. And she was very young when she came out as gay, wasn't she? She was only 22. Yes, she was very young when she came out as gay wasn't she was only 22 yes she was and um she's really kind of used her platform um to kind of tell tell that story uh in a

throughout her career um and i think that part of her her identity makes this news of her detainment in russia all the more worrying course. So let's talk about it what are the Russians accusing her of? Yeah so it only emerged in the last couple of weeks but she has been detained since mid-February and they're accusing her of well she was traveling through an airport and allegedly hashish oil from her vape was found in her in her luggage and so she's been detained on drug charges which like you rightly said can yeah could see her imprisoned for up to 10 years. And this was a few weeks ago why Why has it taken so long for this story to become public? Yeah, that's an interesting part of this and a worrying part of this, I think. So it's not really completely clear when she was arrested.

A US congressman said a couple of weeks ago that his understanding was that she's been detained since february 17th but the new york times didn't was the first to kind of break the news alongside um russian state media of her detainment and that didn't come out until the 5th of march so yeah there are a lot of words about her safety there's reports that she hasn't had access or the U.S. embassy officials in Russia haven't been able to to being direct contact with her, that she hasn't been able to access a lawyer from the U.S. in the time that she's been detained. So, yeah, lots of worrying elements to this. And obviously under under the shadow of the war that's broken out since she's been detained. And it's so strange that it took so long for something like this to come out. And there's lots of speculation about why that's happened. And one of those, some things that people are saying is this would never happen

if it was a male basketball star. You know, if Tom Brady was out there and this had happened to him, it would be all over the news. Yeah, that's a very big part of this story, I think. As a female athlete, even with all of her achievements and her huge profile, this story hasn't become kind of in the mainstream until the last couple of weeks. And even so, the reaction hasn't been,

it's been quite muted, I would say, considering how worrying this is. There's a lot of speculation about why that is. Even the WNBA, though they've released various statements and their commissioner, Kathy Engelbert, has spoken kind of openly about how they're kind of working to try and help to get Britneyney um back to the us um yeah it's not been kind of the huge public outcry that you would expect to see with it with a major star

i think if lebron james um which you could call kind of her equivalent on the men's side of things if lebron james um went missing for three weeks i don't think it would. I just think it surely would have been reported much sooner and would have become public knowledge much sooner. Yeah, it's a really interesting part to the story. And I think it makes the story all the more important, I think, to tell because of the lack of kind of recognition it's had for the first few weeks in particular. Absolutely. And she was in Russia because, I mean, another disparity between the male game and the female game is because of the pay difference.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, LeBron James wouldn't have been in Russia at all. the WNBA players supplements her pay in the WNBA by playing in European leagues in the off-season. She plays for a Russian club. And I mean, talking about pay in the WNBA, it's something that has definitely improved in the last two years. So to give context, like in in 2020 so a couple of years ago they signed the players signed a new collective bargaining agreement which um drastically improved um pay especially for top players like britney griner so it kind of tripled um the the kind of salary cap for the top players so um players in wa nba are earning more than they ever have. But in Russia, Greiner could have been earning up to double that. There's reports that she was on a $1 million contract for the season with this Russian team.

So even though she expressed at the end of the WNBA season last year that she wasn't that keen to go back to Russia because of obviously the toll it takes on on a player's body to play year round the kind of financial benefits um yeah outweighed that and she she decided to play but um yeah it's not something that the men have to worry about because even um she I mean she's a veteran player and even rookie um players in the in the men's side of things who have only got a year's experience would be earning as much or more than her. Like you say, they wouldn't need to go to Russia in the first place. Are things likely to be more complicated?

Another speculation, but given the state of tension and relations between the US and Russia at the moment, some people thinking that she's being used as a political pawn. Yeah, I would say that's the most worrying part to this because, yeah, with the relations between Russia and the US at the worst they've been since the Cold War, there's not a lot of bargaining power on the US side to kind of get her back. I think also, like we mentioned before, I guess, there's not been a lot of pressure put on trying to get her back in terms of like kind of days ago, Billie Jean King was posting about it a few days ago but at this point with the kind of political tensions as they are

I'm not sure how much of a difference that will even make at this with the kind of relationship between Russia and the USA the way it is at the moment. Well I'm sure we'll be following this story closely on Woman's Hour. Molly McElwevey thank you so much for speaking to me this morning um you are getting in touch with your stories we've just had a message in from someone saying discovered at the age of 65 that my mother gave birth to twins in 1945 that died within days of each other kept a secret because of stigma about being pregnant before marriage me and my brother were given the names of the twins strange and sad that my mother was never able to grieve for her lost children due to stigma and shame.

I would love to hear the stories that have shaped you, something that you may have discovered recently about your family that you never knew before. 84844 is the number to text now. At Tower House Horses, they use equine-assisted learning to help survivors of domestic abuse with their mental health and well-being.

It's one of 194 projects across the UK supported by Comic Relief. When Sophie, not her real name, finally managed to escape an abusive relationship, she was determined to get her life back on track and tackle her addiction issues. Enna Miller, who is not, shall we say, completely at home with horses, went to meet Sophie and co-founder of the project, Susie Little, in a muddy field in the south of England. And you will hear descriptions of domestic violence. So if that's not for you, come back in about 10 minutes. My first day here was the 8th of the 10th, 2019. The comment I made in my memory book.

Hang on, what did we put here? I can't remember which place it was on. I'm very nervous at first. Love walking Woody. Grooming was very relaxing. He's very playful. Being outside was lovely. In the fresh air, I could have groomed him all day. It felt spiritual.

I was still very nervous, anxious, very vulnerable, so meeting these big horses was very nerve-wracking. My name's Sophie. I'm 5ft 2.5. The half makes a lot of difference to me. I'm 55 years old. I hit rock bottom. Hit rock bottom. Rocky has just come right up to you just to say hello and put you at ease. Hi Rocky. Oh he's just given my mic a good lick. You might notice that he's also just standing here very

quietly and very calmly and he has an incredibly calming effect on people. It's so peaceful here and the view is incredible. We have an uninterrupted view. We can see for almost 10 miles. We've got beautiful trees and lots of birdsong. And I think all of that is just fantastically healing for people who don't necessarily spend a lot of time outdoors. I'm Susie Little. I'm not going to tell you how old I am. That's all right. We're at Tower House Horses and what we do here is we offer equine assisted learning. We're working with victims

of domestic abuse, helping them rebuild their confidence, self-esteem and emotional resilience. Why domestic abuse? Because there's a huge need which has since Covid become a lot worse and these people need help. They are at a very low ebb when they come here and they need help to rebuild their lives and move on from domestic abuse. What was Sophie like when she walked through your gates? Sophie is on the surface a very bubbly, fun-loving character, but she arrived full of anxiety and her situation was a very difficult one. We don't dig too much into that because we like when people come here for them. We describe that as leaving it at the gate.

As I was driving, he hit my head and I was so shocked. And he said to me, I can't believe I just did that to you. Got back to the house. He started to hit me again in the car and he slammed my legs in the car door. I screamed so loud. He broke my back, he broke my ribs, chipped my hip. Ended up at hospital, but I told the hospital people I fell down the stairs. And that was when the worst of my life started and I stuck that relationship out for eight years. He totally destroyed me. Even just to wash was a struggle. To eat, I didn't eat.

I had no energy left to fight him no more. I was so withdrawn, so skinny. I would just go and clean, come home, have a wine, sleep. It was so cold, so cold, I used to just sleep in my clothes and get up, clean my teeth and go again. In the end, I went to work and I was cleaning for a lovely couple and we were just chatting and I just broke down. Totally just broke down, couldn't cope anymore. She got the police involved. He got arrested.

You're not eating. You can't even wash at times. Yeah. So when someone says to you, oh, I know what's going to help you, let's go and hang out with some horses. My first reaction was, wow, that's a rich man's you'd think oh how am i how am i gonna do this i can't afford to pay for this sort of therapy but no it was all funding a few of us girls put our names down well some of us were still homeless living in rented rooms and

that here we are on a beautiful farm and when when you've been through so much, just like a breath of fresh air. Susie does a meditation thing. We all find a space in the field where we feel comfortable, get ourselves grounded. When we first come into the field, we want to quieten our mind, leave all the baggage at the gate, just bring yourself into the field to be present so we're just going to use a technique of concentrating on three senses take a deep breath and then focus on those three things at the same time to quieten your mind yeah Just relaxing my arms, my shoulders, feeling the wind around me.

OK, so now, who do you feel drawn to spend some time with today, Sophie? I'd love to work with Rocky today. Let's go get Rocky. We've been visited by three other members of the herd who've come to say hello. They're very curious about you. Oh dear. Don't worry. Don't worry. Curious in a good way.

Okay, right. So please try not to fall flat on your back in the mud. We've had so much rain in the last few weeks. Okay. weeks okay sophie here's rocky i'm going to hand the rope to you good boy good boy rocky as you'll see there's a leading course just some poles on the ground, things to walk around. Just see what it takes to have Rocky come with you. Right, are we ready, Rocky? You're going to walk with me. This is the part where you have to adjust yourself, get your breathing right, because the horse will pick up on this. You ready there, Rocky? Let's go. Right, I'm starting to walk forward now. Good boy, Rocky. Good boy. And he's actually following me. So what's this doing for you? Something I've achieved

to make him walk with me. It makes you feel good. Is it anything to do with control? Because I guess for a while you lost control? Yes, yes. It's all to do with control? Because I guess for a while you lost control. Yes, yes, it's all to do with control because before I would have been a nervous wreck. You have to have your wits about you. This is what these therapy sessions do. They teach you to be aware of your surroundings. When you've been through domestic violence, you don't even notice what's going on around you.

You're just in this little bubble. Your head's down, eyes to the ground. You don't want to talk to anyone. You don't want to see anyone. Is there ever a time where it just doesn't work? People just can't connect. I can't remember that happening. It might take some people longer than others, but we connect with horses on a very deep level and have done for centuries. But I think for some people it just takes a little bit longer to tap into their own emotions about how they feel around them. We have to go out and find funding for everything we offer, which is why we're so grateful that Comet Relief supported our programme. Because this kind of therapeutic intervention is not available to everyone and one of our missions if you like is to try and make it available

to as many people as possible. You use the word therapeutic but you also said to me it's not therapy. We are not therapists. What the horses do has a therapeutic effect. The outcome is therapeutic, but we don't describe what we do as therapy. Come on, Rocky. Off we go. Good boy. Oh, no, no. He's decided he's got distracted. He's off to the others now, so he's dragging me around. Right, I've got to compose myself again. So is this what it's all about? He's not always going to do what you want him to do Yes And so I guess how does that relate to real life? This goes back into life where things don't go right

you just readjust yourself and carry on so this is what I'm doing with Rocky now and you learn about yourself as well that you can make things go your way especially while I'm going to make Rocky walk with me now. What's that like to see? That's wonderful to see because it's brought up her emotional resilience. Come on, Rocky. Off we go. Good boy.

So, Enna, didn't you want to have a go at leading? I'd like to try. OK, so I'm going to hand you Rocky's rope and just see what it takes to have him walk forward with you. OK, come on. Walk forward. Walk forward. That's it. That's it. Oh, this works. Are you going down the hill?

Oh, oh, no, no. He's not doing what I want to do anymore. He's decided to eat the grass. And then what do I do now? I don't want him to eat the grass. I want him to come with me. OK, Rocky, I want you to go left, please. Come left. Left, left, left.

Sophie's laughing at me. Sophie, you should be kind. You know how difficult this is. It's very difficult. You need to restart again. it's the way he drag you over to the fence so you totally lost control so he now he's eating the grass you're gonna have to get him to lift his head and walk with you so you've got to compose yourself again get yourself relaxed right get his confidence back again

start to connect with him right you're in charge you're in charge okay right come on so lift up come on come on. He's still eating the grass, but he's coming with me. Come on. Let's go. Forward and stop. Stop. Oh, he stopped. But he's still eating the grass. Well done. Well done.

I never thought that I would get to this place I am now, because I was at rock bottom. I have dreams of being with a partner again, being happy again. I won't be bullied anymore and I am a decent, loving person. Consider I'm 55 now, so I've got more years behind me than I have in front of me,

but I am up and upwards, on and on. Oh, and the sun is shining. Do you have the shining? You can feel that, can't you? but I am up and upwards, on and on. Oh, and the sun is shining. Yes, it's shining. I can feel that, can't you? And the sun is shining indeed. Sophie experiencing the healing power of nature there. And with your help, Comic Relief was able to support this project and your donation is needed now more than ever

so that community projects like this one can be funded. Red Nose Day is on BBC One at 7pm tonight with Selenie Henry, Paddy McGuinness, Alicia Dixon, David Tennant and Zoe Ball hosting the event. It should be a good evening. Now, here's something for the future on Woman's Hour. We're looking for men. Yes, that's right, men to speak about their experience of divorce. You might be going through one now or looking back but were you blindsided by it relieved by it have you found it easy to talk about did you feel shame around the breakdown of your marriage as the no fault divorce becomes available in england and wales next month how has divorce

shaped your life we'd love to hear from you text us 84844 or you can email us by going to our website now yesterday the government set out its plans to address racial disparities in the UK with changes to policing, health and education. Inclusive Britain, the government response to the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparity, sets out 70 plans, including ones to tackle the differences in maternal health to ones referring to police powers.

That also includes a plan to get a diverse panel of historians to, as the report puts it, develop a new knowledge-rich history curriculum by 2024, exploring Britain's historical past. But how would that actually work in practice? Dr Angelina Osborne is a historian and heritage consultant and co-author of 100 Great Black Britons, and Stella Dadsey is an educational activist and author of A Kick in the Belly. Morning to both of you, welcome to Women's Hour.

You have both in different ways spent your lives making sure black history and black women are visible in the British landscape. I want to know what your reaction was when this another race report came out yesterday. I'll come to you first Angelina. I guess my response really was yet another panel to do yet another report when there's been so many reports that have been done which have made lots of really good recommendations on how to move forward with having a more inclusive history about black people in Britain, black experience as well as a more broader history around race and empire. I don't know what that means in practical terms

in terms of what the government is suggesting this panel would look like and what they aim to deliver. So I think for me, I need to hear a bit more information about what that actually means. And Stella, how about you? Were you cheering or was it an eye roll from you? A bit of an eye roll, Anita. I think we've had numerous reports, haven't we?

We've had Scarman, we've had mcpherson we've had the seal report with these rather bizarre conclusions that institutional racism no longer is an issue um and some of those reports have recommendations that have yet to be implemented so um i think a degree of skepticism is is understandable and and and necessary and i think if those reports teach us anything, what we know is that we need political will in the school leadership. We need proper resourcing, meaningful inspection criteria so that inspectors know what they're looking for. And we need effective teacher training.

And all of those things have to be there and visible if good intentions are going to be translated into good practice. Well, let's look at what the report is saying. One of the things it says is we will ensure that how our past is taught in schools encourages all pupils, whatever their ethnicity, to feel an authentic sense of belonging to a multiracial UK. So how could this be done, do you think, Angelina? Where do you begin? Well, no, Nina, this is something that you, this is your area of expertise.

What would you suggest? You know, I just think that, you know, the history of Britain is a global history and it's a nuanced history and it's a really complex history. As Stella has already said, there has to be like a political will, the political will to want to really implement a curriculum that is really going to address and explore meaningfully the experience of not just people of African Caribbean heritage, but all people, British people from throughout what was the former empire that now reside as British subjects in this country today. How do we begin doing it? I think that it's a really monumental task and I think it really involves engaging with experienced teachers who are really doing amazing work in schools currently, working with academics, working with social enterprises community leaders grassroots

organizations these are all different diverse voices are those voices going to be taking into consideration in an equal and meaningful way that i cannot answer what about you um stella yeah i think like angelina i was a bit bit concerned when they talk in the report about just setting up a panel of experts, because for this to work, you need to engage teachers, pupils, the communities they represent and a whole range of other people who may not be experts in history, but have a sense of what is needed in school. You started your question, Anita, by saying what is needed to create a sense of what is needed in school um you started your question either by saying what is needed to create a sense of belonging well first of all you need to be visible um you know my own experience of being a child of the 60s was that I never saw anyone brown and

female like me ever referenced in in history and you know I was taught a history of glorious white conquest a history that was basically a roll call of famous or infamous white men so um that that's that is as I just said Angelina said it it's it's a challenge um I don't think it's a new challenge we've been here before and we can go back to Ilya in the 80s, can't we, and find some superb resources. And as Angelina also said, you know, there's some excellent work going on in schools now. So this isn't a new challenge. But, you know, the reality is that we live in a country that is a nation of immigrants. We live in a country that has consistently failed to acknowledge that. And if we're going to revise and redress those issues in the curriculum, we need to get everyone on board.

Angelina, you said there needs to be a political will. Do you not believe there is? I think, to be honest, I mean, the Sewell report, which has been sort of widely criticised, it's kind of indicative. And in terms of the people who were on that panel, you know, that were forwarding a particular agenda to disavow the existence of institutional racism, means that I am not convinced that there is the political will to deliver a realistic and meaningful curriculum that addresses these aspects of history. Like Stella, I just want to touch on the whole issue about history being racialized and gendered. Neither did I have any experience or knowledge of women of African or Caribbean heritage who have made enormous contributions historically to this country. And the other challenge that we face is that a lot of the times the archives and the narratives are not what people generally understand as, you know, quote unquote, regular archives that can be consulted.

You know, often they are all over the world or in people's basements or in people's, you know, unknown. So there is all kinds of challenges that we face in that area. I had direct experience of it when I made my Who Do You Think You Are and explored the history of the partition of India. And it was a story and particularly the story of women. And the reaction was huge because nobody knew. And actually, I got a wave of people getting in touch to say, how did we not know this huge piece of British global history? But it's complicated, isn't it? Because when you start telling the dark bits of empire, you start having to look at maybe the heroes of the stories from a different perspective.

Indeed. And the sheroes. And the sheroes. How do you find the sheroes? Well, they're there. And, you know, part of this discussion has to address the way we've dealt with black history um up till now we've put it into a separate box we take it out once a year in october during black history month and we flurry around looking for you know famous black people and then it all goes quiet again so you know the reality is it's time it was mainstream if we can teach about i don't know james hargreave and his spinning jenny we can teach about the people who picked the cotton. If we teach about Florence Nightingale, we can teach about Mary Seacole in the Crimean War. You know, I could go on and on. The troops

in the First and Second World War, where is the evidence that there were black people from India, the Caribbean, West Indies, fighting alongside our troops. You know, those kinds of questions really need to be addressed. And I don't think it's actually that much of a challenge. It's there. It's out there. You know, as I said, it's about the political will. It's also about effective training. And I wanted to say something about this, Anita, because I've been involved in teacher training for much of my career.

And I think quite often there is a will on behalf of teachers to address these issues but a nervousness around taking them up in the classroom they don't know what the kids are going to come back with and I've certainly encountered young people who've been very shirty around you know being taught the history of enslavement for example so there's a sensitivity that needs to be brought to this issue that goes beyond just this stuff that they refer to in the report as knowledge rich. I'm thinking of the teacher who told her kids to come in dressed as slaves. You know, would you tell kids to come in and dressed in striped pyjamas? You wouldn't. So there's a whole issue about sensitising teachers

so that they don't teach a history of victimhood, so that they give black people agency. And also, this also needs to be named, so they don't send the white kids out of the classroom feeling guilty. And the way you do this is by introducing the issue of class. Stella, Angelina, I think the two of you need to, but my vote is for the both of you to be on the panel

when it comes to putting this panel together. Thank you both for speaking to me about this this morning. I'm sure we'll be coming back to it very soon on the programme. And we are asking you to share your stories on the programme

and lots of you are getting in touch and I will come to them in just a moment. But first, Kendra Malnachuk-Potter was adopted into a white family and raised with no knowledge of her native background. A new film, Daughter of a Lost Bird, currently showing at the Human Rights Watch Film Festival, follows Kendra as she connects with her birth mother, April, also a native adoptee, and discovers her Lumi homelands in Washington state. Her story has parallels with many of those children affected by the 1958 Indian Adoption Project, where native children in the US, this is shocking, were removed from their families and placed in white homes,

dubbed by some as cultural genocide. In the late 1970s, the Indian Child Welfare Act came into force, which prioritised keeping native Indian children with their own tribes. Well, I spoke to Kendra and to the filmmaker Brooke Pepion-Swainey and started by asking Brooke why she wanted to make the film. Well, it came from two places, really. The first was I just wanted my friend Kendra to reconnect with her indigenous roots because, you know, being Blackfeet and Salish is really important to me and it's something that I've always known about, you know, being Blackfeet and Salish is really important to me. And it's something that I've always known about, you know, my identity. And as her friend, I just

wanted to help her as much as possible. And the second aspect was at the time that we started making the film, there weren't any films about how the United States government had done a concerted effort to take Native kids away from their families. And certainly people are a little bit more aware about the boarding school era that happened in the United States, similar to the residential schools in Canada. But people didn't know that there was this Indian adoption project in the 15s and 60s, which led to legislation that started the Indian Child Welfare Act, which prioritized keeping ties to tribes for Native kids. So telling a story from this character-driven perspective felt like a really great way to introduce audiences to the personal impacts of that

legislation. Although, you know, Kendra was not directly affected. I mean, she wasn't a member of what in Canada they call the 60 scoop. But, you know, it's certainly like the social kind of groundwork had already been laid for, you know, Indigenous children being taken from their families. So this is the story that in America, Indigenous children were taken away from their families and given up for adoption. And the reason for that was to ensure that they assimilate. Is that right? Assimilate and to break down a community and its culture. Right. I'm going to bring you in, Kendra, because you are the subject matter of this documentary.

It's about you going on a journey to discover who you are and who your birth mother is as well. So when did you first know that you were adopted? Yeah, I've known I was adopted my whole life, but I was not aware that I was Native until I was mid to late teen. They told me that they thought I was probably native, but didn't know what tribe I had come from because my birth mother was also adopted out of her community. So when she put me up for adoption, there was no tribe to claim.

And how did you end up finding your mum? Because the documentary starts in a really, it's a brilliant watch, by the way. And I was gripped to the whole story, vested in you, Kendra, and what you were going through, but also the story that was unfolding about, as you say, the indigenous community that we're talking about and the history around that, which I had no idea about. And it opens with you leaving a voice message for your mum. Yeah, yeah. And that lovely thing that you say, I like the sound of your voice,

which I thought was, yeah, what else would you say? You know, you hear her voice. It was very awkward. How did you find her? I found her actually through the adoption agency. It was a closed adoption when I was born in 1980, as most adoptions were in the United States at that time. And once I was 18, I was able to fill out paperwork saying I would like to meet her. And then she also had to fill out paperwork saying she would like to meet me. We wrote letters back and forth to each other just a few times before I called. And we, you know, recorded that phone call, and then a few months later, our meeting in person.

And how was that meeting? I mean, we see it happen, and it's one of the most beautiful hugs I've ever seen. It was a really special moment, yeah. And it's funny because, you know, in that way that you can't really plan, but the microphone that I was wearing picked up on my heartbeat when we hugged.

And then you can hear, yeah. I thought that was a sound effect. Not a sound effect, no. It's my actual heartbeat. And then you can hear her heartbeat and they start to sync. It was a really lucky film magic moment. It was the strangest sensation having, you know,

grown up never meeting anyone I was related to by blood and my own daughter being the first person, the first like blood relative I ever met. And then, you know, just a little while later meeting April for the first time, my birth mother. And it was, I mean, it was a really lovely moment. And then you hear about her life and we see it. We see her telling you about her childhood and she had a very difficult childhood with abuse and addiction. How did you feel when you first heard about what she went through and her experiences?

It was really challenging. I mean, I grew up in an incredibly sheltered, privileged life. She had been homeless on and off for a lot of years and had substance abuse issues and addiction and had been trafficked for a few years after she had given me up for adoption. And I think it was a real hard conversation to have. And honestly, a conversation that I think a lot of people don't have, even if they've grown up with their birth mothers, not, I mean, not that everyone's, you know, mother has gone through what she'd gone through, but to sit down and say, tell me the story of your life, every single thing that has ever happened to you. It was about four and a

half hours long in the same way that I think that what we were trying to do with the film is contextualize my adoption story within the landscape of the American government's relationship to Native people, understanding that, you know, those statistics become much more real when they're no longer statistics, when they're human beings. And April, unfortunately, a lot of her life can be paralleled or explained by that experience. By that experience, yeah. I mean, Brooke, when you begin this journey, you are, as a filmmaker, you have no idea what's going to unfold. And when you see Kendra going through what she's going through,

discovering all this stuff about her mother, questioning who she is, discovering things about her identity that she'd never even thought about before, did you at any point think, oh, should this camera be on? I mean, there were certainly instances where it felt strange, you know, to be a person with a camera in that space. When Kendra had that long interview session with April, you know, and I was primarily leading that interview. But I just thought, you know, how many times do people sit down with their family members and ask them, you know, some of the hardest questions about their life? Another moment that felt particularly strange to me was going to the Lummi Nation with Kendra. And of course, you know, as an Indigenous filmmaker, it's really a priority for me to make contact with the nation and build relationships before arriving.

And so, you know, we did that. And I thought to myself, well, if it was any other indigenous person and if this was like purely observational documentary, like, you know, you wouldn't do that. You know, there's a certain amount of kind of attention that happens that, you know, wouldn't happen to the average adoptee who's just going home for the first time. So, you know, you already feel that you're manipulating the situation. Sure. And then we see Kendra, you going to the Lumination for the very first time. And it was very interesting because I've been to India and I've discovered new relatives and I've kind of met relatives and I've been new existed, but I have a context for my Indian identity. You know, I'm very kind of rooted in it. You grew up completely white. You have no clue whatsoever. And we see you processing this whole other identity. How was that? Awkward. And how is it?

It was awkward. Yeah. And, you know, and beautiful. I feel so lucky that when I, when I did come, you know, we did have the, the benefit of the film, um, having, having established some relationships. And then also my family is amazing. Like they're incredible and they were so welcoming and so, um, encouraging. Uh, it, it was still, it was strange. There was a lot of, I, I just didn't know. I didn't know what questions I had. I didn't know what I didn't know. And, and I also felt just like really, really like a fish out of water. I mean, I felt very confused about what was appropriate

and what wasn't appropriate and, and how to, you know, how to be there. I felt like a tourist, but I was treated like a relation and that felt beautiful, but, but also, you know, strange. And at the end of the film, we see you applying for Lumi citizenship. How, how is that going now? It's still in process, unfortunately. The enrollment office in Lemmy Nation is working remotely. And so it's still in process. I've got the paperwork. I'm waiting for other paperwork to fill out to continue.

But I am not officially enrolled yet. And through the process of this documentary, you've defined your birth mother. You learn about her life, which is so different to what you've experienced. You go and discover, you know, your cultural identity, if you like. How has it changed you? How do you feel about your identity now? Yeah, I identify as a Native American woman now, as a Lummi woman. I'm still trying to figure out what the heck that means. But I stand proudly, if not like fully confidently in that identity and actively working to gain more confidence there. I think it's also really changed the way that I parent and wanting my children to have much more of an understanding of that element of who they are. And Brooke, what are your hopes for this documentary?

Well, part of it, of course, is awareness and educating folks about this history. And then another part of it, you know, specific to the United States is that there is current legislation, well, not legislation, because the Indian Child Welfare Act is law, but the United States Supreme Court

is actually hearing challenges to what we call ICWA. And if that law were to be rescinded, it wouldn't just be an impact on Native kids and their families, it would be a huge impact on the sovereignty of tribal nations. And if you want to see the film Daughter of a Lost Bird, it's streaming to the UK and Ireland as part of the Human Rights Watch Film Festival until the 25th of March. And you are sharing your remarkable stories with us on the programme this morning. So thank you if you are getting in touch. Someone here said, I discovered I had nine half brothers and sisters when I was age 42. It completely changed my idea about who I am and my place, not only in my family, but how I fit in the world.

I was born after an affair between my mother and father. Everything surrounding it was secret. I still haven't met all my siblings and I've never met my father. 84844 is the number to text. Now, you probably don't know what happened when Barbara Lesecki met Alan Holdsworth, but you probably should. A new BBC Two drama, Then Barbara Met Alan,

tells their love story. Set in the 1990s, the drama follows the lives of the two rebellious disabled cabaret performers who met at a gig, fell in love, and changed the course of civil rights history. I'm delighted to say I'm joined by the real-life Barbara Lissicki, who went on to co-found the Direct Action Network, which successfully convinced the Conservative government to pass the Disability Discrimination Act in 1995. And Ruth Maidley, the actor who plays her in the drama.

Welcome to Women's Hour, both of you. We've been talking about stories on the show all day. Now, this is absolutely a story that needed to be told Barbara what was it like to have your life made into a tv drama um like anybody else when you're told that that's what's going to happen um it takes you aback I wasn't expecting it I thought we're going to have a documentary about Dan, Disabled People's Direct Action Network, and it'll be like other documentaries, it'll be interesting, but I might appear in it for a minute here or there.

So this was different. Oh, it's completely different. It's not a straight-up documentary at all. It's a romance, it's the story of your life, it's you meeting your partner and then changing the course of history, as I said. And it takes us back to the late 80s and the early 90s. What was life like for you as a disabled woman back then? Well, in the early 90s, there was no protection for disabled people in law.

You know, you could, I mean, every day something happened to probably most disabled people in law. You know, you could, I mean, every day something happened to probably most disabled people that demonstrated the discrimination that we were facing. You know, I trained as a teacher. I was a professional. I couldn't get a job because without spelling it out, you know, I used to get asked questions in interviews that made it clear that, you know, they didn't think I could do it.

And there's a scene right at the beginning where you're on a date with Alan and there's a woman walks past who is just patronising and rude. It's based on something that actually happened. I was in a restaurant with a group of disabled women friends and there was one, you know, disabled people don't always look. They're disabled, you know, there are people with invisible impairments. And a woman actually went out of her way to come over to our table, came up to the friend who didn't have an obvious impairment

and said, it's so nice to see them all out and about. It is very funny as well as really poignant and moving. It is whip smart. Ruth, I'm going to bring you in. What was it like to meet Barbara and to play her in this drama? I mean, what a role for you. I mean, that's bucket list stuff, right? I mean, every actor dreams of a role like this. And for me, it just made it even better that I was playing a real person and somebody who

completely changed my life as a disabled child. And also somebody who is incredible to look up to as a disabled woman today. So it was a joy on every account. And a gift as an actor, I imagine. And this drama covers, it's a very important history of disability rights, but at its heart, it's also a love story. So how is it do you think for us to see that story disabled people falling in love on screen well it just doesn't get told does it and i think disabled people aren't aren't aren't given that permission to be seen on screens fall in love uh be intimate and have a very domestic setting so to be able to portray that alongside my co-star Arthur Hughes who also a disabled actor that felt really revolutionary and a real moment for our

industry. There was there's a beautiful scene in it it's where you have sex and it's stunning to watch but also you are as a disabled actor we see your scars what was what why was that scene important do you think to have in there oh that was so important again disabled people aren't aren't afforded the the right to have those those scenes ever so um i always say disability representation on screen it's not just about that it's a knock-on effect it's about body image all of those things that are huge and I know that I would have really benefited from seeing growing up as a young disabled person who had a very different body to everybody around her. So showing body differences in the arena of disability is something that

is incredibly important to me and it was a real honour to work with our wonderful DLP Susie and our directors Bruce and Amit on creating that particular scene um in that in that really special way yeah um Barbara when you first met Alan did you know that you would go on to change history um we we didn't I mean we didn't know anything really it was it's you know you this you find out you agree about things and it became the more and more we we you know had discussions about things and you know when disabled people get together we compare notes we talk about our experiences and you find all the common ground you you know, so somebody who's blind or have an experience of discrimination in a very similar way to somebody who's a wheelchair user. You know, you realise that common ground means that something is happening to us all and we need to go for it. And so that's that's what, you know, Alan and I talked about a lot. It wasn't your bog-standard relationship.

When you go to the cinema and hold hands, you probably couldn't get in anyway. We've had demos at cinemas. I bet you have. One of the demos, famous demos, it all starts with this great scene where you are all watching the ITV telethon, hate watching the ITV telethon

and it propelled you to protest against it. What was it about it that annoyed you so much? Well, I mean, everything. But the telethon, for people who don't remember because it's not on anymore, but it was 27 hours straight of television. And I think the person that put it best was Professor Mike Oliver, who's a disabled academic who's written loads about the social model of disability. And he said in a speech outside, in our demo outside the telethon, they do not have our permission.

They beg on our behalf and they don't have our permission. And that's the thing. It was, you you know a portrayal of disabled people a locating of disabled people as tragic pathetic you know we as our show that we toured was called the tragic but brave show as you know sort of wind up of the the stereotype but that that was who we were and that was the only representation that existed of disabled people in any of the broadcast and print media. You know, we weren't anywhere else. We were, to all intents and purposes, invisible to everybody.

So, you know, and then once every year or two years, Children in Need, I might add, was pretty much the same. And we've also demonstrated against BBC the BBC's children in need. We've come a long way since then, though. Well, I agree, but I just don't think it's the right place to put disabled people. You know, OK, representation is getting better. There's more of it. But as long as, you know, it keeps happening, that that is where disabled people are put.

And that is a very high profile thing. That's what people remember. And you've said that whilst you were protesting, you were seen as the ungrateful disabled. So what gave you the motivation to rebel against the narrative of the poor disabled woman? Because everybody, all the disabled people I knew, hated it and said, we need something else. We need something different. And the only way to do that is to create it for ourselves, to create a different story and to create a different image and to be the people that push that forward. And then we know they'll get it right because it'll be coming from us. It's a brilliant watch. It's such an important story. We've been talking about stories and the

stories we tell that shape our history and this is crucial. Ruth, I mean, what impact did it have on you to tell Barbara's story? It actually, it completely changed my life in a way that I don't think an acting job has before for me on a deeply personal level I've always been very aware of I'm very proud to be a disabled woman but this made me feel even more proud which which was very very important to me and to work with so many people on set to be to work with so many creatives who are disabled which is not the norm at all on set um yeah it definitely changed the way I want to work well it is a great watch you were brilliant in it Ruth Barbara you're phenomenal thank you so

much for speaking to me this morning and you can see then Barbara Met Allen on BBC2 and I play it from the 21st of March I highly recommend it that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.