Woman's Hour - Barbara Taylor Bradford; Police conduct; Knitting Banxy; Astronaut Nicole Stott

Episode Date: November 10, 2021

Barbara Taylor Bradford's latest novel A Man Of Honour is a prequel to her first - the 1979 blockbuster A Woman of Substance. It's the story of Shane O'Neill who leaves County Kerry in 1899 at the age of 13 and travels to Leeds to work for his uncle. Known as Blackie on account of his dark hair and eyes, he is a handsome and ambitious grafter - and when he meets young servant Emma Harte on a foggy moor a great friendship begins. Barbara joins Emma in studio.Misogyny and misconduct in the police force has been placed under the microscope following the murder of Sarah Everard in March. Wayne Couzens, a serving Metropolitan police officer, raped and murdered Sarah after kidnapping her in a fake arrest. Couzens is also believed to have been in a WhatsApp group with five police officers who are currently being investigated for gross misconduct, having allegedly shared "discriminatory" messages - including misogynistic content. Claire Bassett is the Deputy Director General of the Independent Office for Police Conduct, and has been leading a wider investigation into inappropriate use of group chats and social media across the police force. She says she’s found there to be a harmful “canteen culture" online. Space tourism is now more of a reality. Last month, at the age of 90, William Shatner, who played Captain Kirk in Star Trek became the oldest person to venture into space on Jeff Bezos second human spaceflight. But for millions of us it is still just a pipedream. But not for my next guest - Nicole Stott who has done it - not once but twice - first in 2009 and then in 2011. The former NASA astronaut and engineer spent over 3 months living and working on the International Space Station and travelling on the space shuttle. In her new book Back to Earth she chronicles her experience in space, and how lessons there could help people on earth. She joins Emma to describe her earthrise moment, and why we must all become crew members not passengers to fight climate change.People living in Syston, Leicestershire have been treated to an incredible life-size knitted soldier that has appeared at the War Memorial Clock Tower. Created to honour Remembrance Day tomorrow, it is the work of the mysteriously named "Knitting Banksy", an anonymous woman who has been surprising locals with her stunning creations. Apart from the knitted soldier, she has also created 23 post box toppers, earning fans across social media and even from celebrities such as Line of Duty actor Stephen Graham. Joining Emma is Samantha Noble, reporter for BBC East Midlands Online, who's been in contact with Knitting Bansky. Image: Barbara Taylor Bradford Credit: Julian Dufort

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now, I'm not usually a fan or advocate of discussing image-based stories on the radio. Frankly, it's quite hard. We don't have the pictures. But I was stopped in my tracks this morning by the most incredible photo of the most incredible creation. I've got it in front of me here, this image. A life-size knitted soldier

that has appeared at the War Memorial clock tower in Syston, Leicestershire. Created, of course, to honour Remembrance Day tomorrow. It's the work of a mysteriously named Knitting Banksy, an anonymous woman who has been surprising locals with her stunning creations. And apart from the knitted soldier, she's also created 23 postbox toppers, earning fans across social media far from where she lives. It's just beautiful. I really haven't seen anything quite like it before. Just to describe, if I can, a little, it's of course

knitted, as I've said, but it's grey, all grey, including the face and hands of this soldier. The soldier's wearing his uniform with a helmet and his head slightly bowed. If you haven't seen it, we've shared it on social media where we're at BBC Women's Hour and you may have seen it elsewhere. It's very widely available because people can't stop sharing it. And I promise we're going to be trying to find out as much as we can about the mysterious creator on today's programme. But I wanted to use it as an opportunity to ask for you to share with us today the best thing you have ever created.

Not where something's gone wrong, not perhaps where you were hoping it would be brilliant, but where it really was brilliant. It doesn't need to have been knitted. It could be drawn, cooked, carved, grown. You tell me. But what is it? 84844. That's the number you need to text. You can send images to us, of course. But if you can also describe it, I will be forever in your debt. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media, as I've mentioned, we're at BBC Women's Hour,

or email me about your creations and why you created it, by the way. And did you put it somewhere? Tell me the stories of it too. What prompted it? You can email me through our website. I should say, looking at this, I've always wanted to learn to knit. I don't know how to go about it. I'm sure there'll be somebody here at Women's Hour who can help me.

But something like this is just extraordinary. Do check it out if you can. Also on today's programme, a former NASA astronaut who's been to space not once, but twice. Nicole Stott will be joining me. She came back to Earth with a bump and has a sobering message for us Earthlings, as she calls us, at COP26,

the Climate Change Summit, of course, which is still going on. The Prime Minister's just making his way to Glasgow at the moment with regards to the commitments world leaders he's hoping will make. And on the programme, we'll also be talking to the legendary author Barbara Taylor Bradford, who's going to be in the studio, I'm sure, to impart some wisdom and some joy. But first, misogyny and misconduct in the police force has been placed under the microscope following the murder of Sarah Everard in March. Wayne Cousins, a serving Metropolitan police officer, raped and murdered Sarah after kidnapping her in a fake arrest. Cousins is also believed to have been in a WhatsApp group with five other police officers who are currently being investigated

for gross misconduct, having allegedly shared discriminatory messages, including misogynistic content. The Deputy Director General of the Independent Office for Police Conduct, known also as the IOPC, which is how I'm going to refer to it from this point on, has been leading a wider investigation into inappropriate use of group chats and social media across the police force. And she says she's found that there is to be harmful, there is harmful canteen culture online.

I'm joined by her now, her name, Claire Bassett. Claire, good morning. Good morning. How big a problem is this, and the word is loathsome, especially in this context, I suppose, banter on group chats amongst police officers? It's very difficult to quantify it, but what we are seeing is far too many examples in our investigation of,

as you say, the banter is really an insufficient term. I think the Anti-Bullying Alliance talk about malicious banter, and I would put what we're seeing very firmly in that category. Hard to quantify. Should it be taken seriously and more seriously as a precursor for bigger offences by police officers? Because that's who you police. Yes, I think we think it should be taken very seriously. I think it reflects a broader culture. And if you've got a culture where sexism and misogyny is allowed to exist and is allowed to go unchallenged, then that can undermine public confidence and trust in policing. Is that the culture of the police force in your view?

You police England and Wales as the IOPC Deputy Director General? So I think it is really important to remember that the vast majority of police officers do a really tough job in really difficult circumstances really well. And every day we see extraordinary examples of them going above and beyond and doing that but sadly that majority is really let down by repeated occurrences that we're seeing now of whatsapp groups of other social media where groups of police officers are sharing comments and jokes mis misogynistic, sexist jokes, referring to their colleagues as sluts and that sort of thing, which is just inappropriate and has absolutely no place.

Is it mainly male officers? From what we're seeing, yes. So male only WhatsApp groups within the police force. And these police officers, as you've mentioned, could still be doing a good job. But this is the culture on the side. So they're not always male only groups, but the people that we have caught doing this are predominantly male. I think that your definition of a good job depends on what we're looking at. Police are required to achieve a standard professional behaviour that includes respect and appropriate behaviour at all times. And if they're not achieving that, I don't think you

can say they're doing a good job. So that's what I'm trying to understand. How widespread then, if you can't quantify it, would you say it's systemic, this behaviour within the England and Wales police forces? Because how widespread is this as the backdrop to what could still be seen, quote unquote, as good policing? I think it's very hard to define whether it's systemic or not. Our role is to look at specific complaints and investigate specific incidents. And we are seeing those. What we're also seeing is that a lot of the time officers not calling out fellow officers for doing this. And when we look at, for example, someone's phone and we see numerous exchanges and text messages

and membership of these sort of groups, we also see sometimes 10, 15 other officers in those groups who haven't called out that behaviour. We look at policing through a particular lens of where it's going wrong. I think what we would call out though, and the system does need to improve, there is room for systemic improvement, particularly around zero tolerance of this sort of behaviour. Is it on their work phones? It can be and it can be on personal phones and one of the things that we have done is issued guidance about the need for much clearer

rules around how phones are used and the avoidance of dual purpose devices, for example. Because there has been a suggestion, which I put yesterday to the outgoing UK Information Commissioner about spot checks on police officers' group messages and group chats that they are on to see what's going on, because you're only in a situation where you can have a look at this if people have been referred. Yes, I mean, I think that might be problematic on private chats. We certainly do think that we're, and there is a really positive use of social media in policing, for example, if we have missing children,

things like that. So there are legitimate forums for this, and I think there should be checks on those. But actually what we would like, rather than just trying to catch people people out we'd like a culture where it's just not tolerated and where people's colleagues challenge it. Are you really best placed to help create that as the IOPC? So what we're trying to do and what we see our role is doing is shining a bright light on what's happening so that we can support those in policing and those in leadership in policing. And that's what we're calling for, for them to bring about this culture and to challenge that behaviour and send that very strong message that there's no place for that.

And where it does happen, people will get caught and will face very significant sanctions. Why on earth should anyone trust anything the IOPC has to say? Because our role is to look at, and one of the things that we do, we carry out over 400 individual investigations ourselves each year. There's over 3,000 complaints that we have oversight and look at. We take our role incredibly seriously. Do you know why I'm asking that, though? Do you suspect why I may be asking that?

No, I think I might need you to tell me. Operation Midland, two words, major expense, major moment for the policing of the police. Scotland Yard's shambolic VIP child sex abuse inquiry to remind any of our listeners, where police officers believe the false accusations of an unproven fantasist, Carl Beach, who's in prison for perverting the course of justice and fraud. Your watchdog found no evidence of misconduct or criminality by the officers during Operation Midland. So I ask you again, why on earth should we trust the IOPC's judgment or ability, as you say, to improve systems?

So in Operation Kentia, which was where we looked at particular elements of Operation Midland, we did find significant learning. The requirements for what constitutes misconduct are set out in the law. We applied that law and investigated that and did not find evidence of misconduct. We did, however, make a number of suggestions and recommendations to the Met, which have been implemented and have brought about quite significant change to the way, for example, search warrants are dealt with. So I think actually our record on that stands and has been under considerable scrutiny. Your record on that stands? Really? I think we encourage people to read the former Home Secretary. I'm going to use some of the words of the people who have read the report and have looked into what you did. Not you personally, your organisation,

I would wish to clarify. I have no idea of your personal role. You can also clarify that if you wish. Former Home Secretary Lord Blunkett said the statement released by your body after your investigations and with regards to Operation Midland was a shocking exercise in exoneration.

A whitewash big enough to cover the whole of the exterior of New Scotland Yard in two thick coats. I've got far more examples. For instance, the former High Court Judge Sir Richard Henriquez, who was asked to look into Operation Midland by Lord Bernard Hogan Howe, said the IOPC investigation was, quote, lamentable and inadequate. So I was, just to clarify, you asked my role. I have joined the IOPC since that investigation took place. However, what I would say is... Are you proud of it?

I think the IOPC was asked to do its job, its job that's set out in law to look at whether there was particular misconduct of officers in that case in a particular part of Operation Midland. What we did is we looked at that. We took on, we included feedback from Sir Richard-Henry Kayes and indeed, in fact, his own report. So his own report found that he didn't find the same culpability.

He said that for himself in his report. So I think it's important that we look at that in the round. You know, you invited me here today to talk about misogyny and sexism and policing. I think it's really important that we focus on that at a time when this is really important. I'm very, very sorry. That's sort of not how journalism works. How it works is you and I have this conversation freely, and I'm very grateful that you have come, and I'm going to come back to women and trust in a minute. But one thing that's incredibly important is the trust that I can have, or rather test that we can have in the body that polices the police. And there are other examples I can give. I have them

all in front of me here of where there have been question marks about the force that polices the police, the place that you are Deputy Director General of. These are very fair questions if you are coming on to talk about the need for the police to have a system that improves because of what has been described as misogynistic exchanges within the force. So that's why I'm asking how and why we should trust the IOPC. I had Harvey Proctor on in September, the former Conservative MP, to remind people that his home was raided by Operation Midland Detectives in response to false allegations of historic child abuse. He condemned the IOPC in 2019 for clearing the Met officers who investigated the allegations. And actually,

what he said speaks to the heart of why you wish to get back to what you're talking about with culture. He says that your watchdog had failed in its duty to protect the public from police incompetence, gross negligence and, quote, institutional stupidity. Have you improved enough since then to give women enough faith to believe you when you try and stamp out this sort of culture? So our role is to look for misconduct. That's what the law asks us to do. And that's what we did in the case that you're referring to there. A number of those things, the language you're using is just not recognised in what we do. What we looked for was whether the behaviour of the officers,

particularly around the search warrant, reached a certain threshold, which would mean that it was misconduct. We investigated that, we looked at that, and we didn't find misconduct. Have you said any form of apology or any form of looking at yourself since then that realises your processes are inadequate, if you can return such a finding? I don't accept that our processes are inadequate. Our processes are set out in law.

We are delivering the job that Parliament asked us to. That doesn't mean they're any good. We reform our laws all the time. And I'm trying to explain to you that what we did was look for misconduct there. We did not find evidence of misconduct on the part of those individual officers. We did find failings that required learning. The Metropolitan Police did apologise. You found learning for the police.

I'm not interested in what you found for the police. I'm interested in what you found for the IOPC. If you like, I'm trying to talk about who polices the police because your own, the people that you are policing, some of them don't believe the IOPC is fit for purpose. Federation Vice Chairman Craig Granderson has criticised the Independent Office for Police Conduct, the IOPC, for the time that it takes to conclude your probes. I've got numerous examples here of how sometimes these investigations by the IOPC take years, sometimes with offices being suspended on full pay. How long should an IOPC probe take? So this is something that when we became the IOPC three years ago, we accepted wasn't good enough. We were very clear that cases should not be taking years. We've worked incredibly hard to shift that so that we now have 92% of our cases concluded in under 12 months and a significant proportion of those in under six months.

We've worked very hard to do that. It is very disappointing when very old cases from the IPCC are sometimes quoted. Just to say that was your previous predecessor organisation. There are cases which did take too long. We accept that. What we've done is we have changed our approach. We have sped that up considerably. And I think that's been recognised, the improvements we've made. We do meet regularly with the Federation to explain that and keep them updated. So it's extremely disappointing when delays are misrepresented. I think it's also really important to say that we are just one part of the longer process. So we complete our investigation and that report will then go, if it's a criminal

finding to the CPS and through the court process, or it will go back to the force for misconduct hearing. That can add considerable delay to a case that we have no control over. And in some instances that will add up to one, two years to a case, particularly as we're seeing delays as a result of COVID. And I think also important to say, being part of that chain, with regards to news last week, and going back to our original part of this conversation, but I'm sure and I hope you'll accept my need to test the trust that people have in the IOPC based on your record, is last week two Met Police officers, Dennis Jaffa and Jamie Lewis, pleaded guilty to taking and sharing photographs of the murder scene of the sisters,

Bieber, Henry and Nicole Smallman in a London park last year. We very recently had their mother on, Mina Smallman. So in terms of what happens and the process, people can see that playing out all of the time. With regards to what you're saying about culture and essentially the misogynistic or sexist culture as it's been described. A message has come in here saying, of course, this quote, misogynistic banter is commonplace amongst the police as they are predominantly drawn from the working class. Like it or not, misogynistic attitudes are common amongst working class men as they were 100 years ago, says this person who's texted. No name on it. Sad to say, the same underlying attitudes are also common amongst middle class men as they were 100 years ago, says this person who's texted. No name on it. Sad to say, the same underlying attitudes are also common amongst middle class men,

but they have simply learned to disguise it more effectively. An anonymous texter writes, plainly spoken, but what would you say to that? I don't think we would recognise this as something to do with class. I think those are quite old-fashioned concepts in this day and age. We are seeing this right across different groups of policing. We are seeing it across groups of police with different backgrounds and from different areas. And one of the things that we are very keen is that with the increased recruitment into policing that's taking place, that we look at the induction and training of police officers to make sure that they are very aware of how unacceptable this behaviour is and of the consequences of it.

Having seen what you've seen as the Deputy Director General of the Independent Office for Police Conduct, if you're joining us, I'm talking to Claire Bassett, do you trust the police? I do. As I said, I think the vast majority of police officers do a really good job in very difficult circumstances. But we do need to root out the small number that undermine that trust because it has a much wider impact. Well, I look forward to talking again or to your organisation, certainly, to see how that's going in time. Thank you very much for joining us this morning, Claire Bassett. Now, while I've been talking to Claire, as well as your responses to that discussion, you have been sending in a lot of your incredible creations or describing them, certainly for me. With regards to what we're about to talk about now, this incredible life-size knitted soldier that has appeared at the War Memorial Clock Tower in Syston, Leicestershire.

And if you live there, of course, also let me know what it's like to see in person. I'm obsessed with it, having just seen an image of it. It's been created to honour Remembrance Day tomorrow, and it is the work of the mysteriously named Knitting Banksy, an anonymous woman who's been surprising locals with her creations and how stunning they are. And apart from that knitted soldier, as I mentioned earlier, she's also created 23 postbox toppers, with a lot of fans now following her work, whoever she is.

And I've been asking you for your incredible creations knitted or otherwise i promise i'm going to come to those very very shortly but i want to give you some more information or the little that we do know about this knitting banksy a reporter for bbc east midlands online samantha noble joins me now samantha good morning good morning i believe you've had the honour of exchanging messages with the actual Knitting Banksy. What can you tell us? Yes, I did. I feel very privileged.

I don't know a lot, I have to say, because she likes to keep... Oh, I'm so sorry. Samantha, do you know what? I'm going to do a bit of live production here. I believe your microphone is going against your very fetching polo neck there, and we're getting a slight interruption. Carry on. Yes.

Well, I don't know a lot because she likes to keep her identity a mystery. I think she's read comments before from locals saying that they want it to remain that way and it's all part of the charm. But what I I do know is that she has been knitting since she was um since childhood and um but she more keenly took it up um when her children were younger and um she spoke to me about some uh Power Rangers um set that she knitted for her children one Christmas that they absolutely loved and um she lives in Sice and in Leicestershire and has been there for the best part of her life which she said is the last

30 years um I love this is she in the text messages is she finding this odd this is attention or is she enjoying it I think yeah I think she she just yes she's enjoying it she just um i don't think she can believe how how what an amazing reaction she's had and how yeah how it's gone all over the world i think all these images of her amazing works have been shared everywhere i think she's and do we do we know if she will ever reveal who she is do we do we know if this is a bit of a thing for now and then maybe there'll be a moment? No, I think she wants to remain a mystery. Just like Banksy, who she's taken her name from,

I don't think she ever wants to reveal who she is. And her process of creating this particular soldier, I mean, it's an incredible thing. Have you actually seen it in real life? I haven't. I've seen the photograph but yes I will I will go along and see it I mean it's it's it's breathtaking isn't it I know you mentioned it earlier but the the detail um the you know his helmet and the the knitted

backpack on the back and the the detail in the shoes and and the pockets and and the detail in the shoes and the pockets and his posture as well, how he's sort of leaning towards the war memorial. It's just remarkable. Do we know if she puts them in herself? And does she come in the night? Or do we know anything about that? She does do it herself. Yes, overnight in the darkness.

This is so great. I mean, does she wear a balaclava and actually we've got a message here from katherine saying how do we know knitting banksy is a woman she did tell me that i asked her um i think she was reluctant to say but she did confirm that she she is a woman okay um and she goes and does this herself in terms of putting them out? Yes, puts them out overnight. I think the odd people have saw her, but probably didn't realise what she was doing. She's just carrying a giant soldier under her arm and just casually putting it down. I mean, it's remarkable. These things have managed to stay in place. Nowadays, things get moved.

Yes. Yes, it is. And I think she has them all collected at home um they haven't been sold to charity as well have they okay and i mean and also she's got quite a few well-known fans as well hasn't she celebrities have been clamoring a bit she does so she did one postbox topper which was of stephen graham's characters and she went and put that one on a postbox in Ibstock where Stephen Graham is from and we're talking about the the line of duty actor here in case people are not sure yes um and he took a photograph of himself next to his postbox topper with the giving the thumbs up um and shared it on media. And she said she was grinning from ear to ear when she saw that. And she still is.

And as well as Stephen Graham, actually, so she did another post-box-office she did was for the Queen's birthday. And it was of the Queen in her walking outfit with her headscarf on and a coat and walking her corgis and at the bottom of the top it said happy birthday and a photograph of this was sent to the Queen from by Fiona Henry who's the editor of the Sison Town News community newspaper and Fiona got a reply from Buckingham Palace from one of the Queen's ladies-in-waiting, thanking her for her work. So we think the Queen herself may have seen this topper.

Love that. Love it. I just think this is brilliant. Is there a great atmosphere around this story locally and how people are feeling about it? Oh, definitely. Every time anything goes on on our facebook page or on the reaction is incredible and i think it really does boost community spirit and that's what size submitting banks he said to me one of the reasons that she does it is to cheer people up boost community spirit um and people love it and in the words words of Fiona from Sight and Town News, who I've already mentioned, she called her a local treasure. Yes. I think that's...

Well, I think we all want a bit here, so it's national now, and you've just unwittingly become our missing correspondent, but we can move on to other things. Any idea how long the soldier took, or any more detail about this specific creation before I go to the creations of our listeners? I'm not sure. I don't know how long this one took. Well, when you text her later, if she wants to do an interview by text with me, or even if we could disguise her voice,

put in a word, that would be great, Samantha, if you don't mind. I will. I'll ask her. Okay. Always try to book the next guest. Samantha Noble, who is the reporter for BBC East Midlands Online and has had the pleasure of texting with Knitting Banksy. Thank you so much. Really good to hear how that's playing out locally and also some of the messages you've received from her. A message here. Once when I was ill in bed, I made over three weeks a fascinator

with a miniature old-fashioned typewriter of wire and black and red felt for a play we wrote about Enid Blyton. It has Enid, spelled E-N-I-D, a B, coming out on the wires from it and proved surprisingly robust over the years, says Beth. Well done. Another one here with a photo that's come in. It does look beautiful. I can see it, but I'll describe. A knitted bedspread with squares of wool sewn together, ready for my granddaughters to take with them when off to university, I started the squares when they were young to teach them to knit. How fabulous. Not sure if it's brilliant, but I am very proud of my series of COVID-19 handkerchiefs

that I started at the beginning of the first lockdown. This is part four. I'm currently working on part eight. That says love from a radical embroiderer. There's a lot of detail there. I'm going to zoom in on that. The way these messages come in and what I'm looking at, it comes up quite small but I'm going to have a really good look at that

after the programme. I somehow managed to make my very own Christmas reindeer from a few willow whips that were being given away in my village I had every intention of it being a small project but it just grew and grew. I ended up with a waist high reindeer Fast forward a year and I've just been back to the same lady

who originally passed on the willow whips, ready to cut my own as my reindeer needs some locally sourced friends, says Jacqueline. My goodness, you're very talented. Very talented, I knew this. 25 years ago, after being left by my fiancé, I went on a stained glass evening class just to get out and do something different I made the most beautiful stained glass panel depicting koi carp and lily pads it took weeks to make it was designed to fit a small window in my back door having fitted it it

was such a snug perfect fit I was told it didn't need any anchoring in the first time I shut the door oh no it fell out and smashed It was utterly beyond repair and I had to throw it away because I couldn't bear looking at it after all the work that went into. But somehow it was really rather cathartic, says Joe. Good morning to you, Joe. I hope you can see the funny side now. You've certainly texted in, so I'm hoping you're at that point with it. Thank you. There's so many more and I will come back to them, I promise. I'm definitely going to make time to see and hear about what you have created. But I have to tell you this, a woman of substance has just walked into the studio. I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. Barbara Taylor Bradford's in the house and that's

because of her latest novel, A Man of Honour, which is a prequel to her first, the 1979 blockbuster, A Woman of Substance. This is the story of Shane O'Neill who leaves County Kerry in 1899 at the age of 13 and travels to Leeds to work for his uncle. Known as Blackie on the account of his dark hair and eyes, he's a handsome and ambitious grafter and when he meets young servant Emma Hart on a foggy moor, a great friendship begins. Barbara Taylor Bradford, good morning. Good morning Emma. Thank you for being with us here. I'll start with the book, but there's much more to talk about when you've got you as a guest. Why a prequel? Well, as a matter of fact, excuse me, I've been talking all week. My voice is a little funny. I was supposed to do a book that was part of a series. It's called The House of Falconer. And I'd done the first two.

And the third one was going to be The Falconer Woman. That was the title. My husband had suddenly had a stroke and was in hospital. And I was sitting there holding his hand one day and he was totally out of it. I knew really that it may very well be the end. And I thought to myself, how can I write that book for the Falcon? There's just so much research to do. And if anything happens to Bob, I don't know whether I can do this book. And I thought suddenly in the hospital room, I wish I could write a book about Emma Hart. And I thought, Barbara, you can't do that. You've written seven. And then I thought, what about Blackie O'Neill? What do I know about him? I don't know very much. Because I always, he said goodbye to Emma in A Woman of Substance and off he went.

What do I know? And when I got home that night, you know, I was with Bob all day at the hospital, I went home. First thing I did was open a copy of A Woman of Substance and I realised that as I flicked through it, I didn't read it all again, but I went into certain parts and I saw that there wasn't really very much about his life. When he said goodbye to Emma, I kept the reader with Emma.

So I thought, boy, this is a good idea. A prequel. And I told my editor the next day, I called London, I was in New York and I called my editor the next day, I called London, I was in New York, and I called my editor in London at HarperCollins, and she said, Barbara, can I have the prequel tomorrow? There was an appetite straight away. And I said, what about the Faulkner book?

She said, you can break off in the middle of a series. I love the sound of this book. And she said, I'm now going to read A Woman of Substance. So a few days later, she called me and she said, there's nothing really about his life. We know he has a child during the First World War and that Laura dies. And Emma brings up Brian till the end of the war. Blackie comes home, he takes the child, he brings up Brian. Brian has a son, Shane, who marries Emma's granddaughter, Paula. She said, but we don't really ever see Blackie's life.

So that was the genesis of that. So that was it. But why do you think, and for so many, it has been something that they did find that they connected with. Why do you think a woman of substance appealed to so many, and specifically Emma Hart? I've had so many different suggestions over the years. I think I'll go to one,

and that is that women found her to be a role model. I got a lot of mail about the book, and everyone always said, I thought I wanted to go in real estate, or I wanted to be in the army, or I wanted to be a nurse, and I never did anything about it. And then I thought, after I'd read A Woman of Substance, if Emma can do it, I can. And she became a role model. I also think she was a very unusual character in the book, because in the early 1900s, you did not have any women tycoons. Today, it might not be so unusual, but in 1901, there weren't any women tycoons, so she was unique. I think it's a number of things. Also, I created a character who people were intrigued by.

A lot of men read the book, and I said, why did you write the book? Well, Barbara, it was about business, and she was a good businesswoman. But also, we became involved with her. We wanted to know what happened to her. And both men and women did become... I'd written a character that drew people into the book

and they wanted to know what would be her destiny, what would be her fate. But there's a strong theme of her and a strong theme of this and you is about hard work, grafting, putting in the hours. And that's a big part of who you are and how you write, isn't it? Yes, and lately since my husband died and I've had to manage many of his affairs, I've said to people, I've become Emma Hart.

I'm now a businesswoman. And all of my friends laugh and say, Barbara, you must have been a businesswoman because how did you create a woman like Emma? And, of course, that's true. Well, and, you know, I'm incredibly sorry for your loss. And he was a great partner to you in your work as well as your life. Well, yes, he was.

He really, in a way, ran my life. And I didn't mind that at all because I could sit and write a book and he would do the publishing deals. He would come up with new marketing ideas. But of course, when I married him, he was a Hollywood producer. So of course, he made 10 of them into television movies or movies of the week. Did he always like what you created? Pardon?

Did he always like what you created? Or I'm imagining good creative discussions you know someone asked me if he if i used him as a sounding board or if i had a sounding board or if i read anything to him or if he read it or i stopped them and i said nobody reads anything of a book until it is finished because I don't want any comments that might slow me down or stop me or a criticism later yes but not when I'm in the middle of it so everybody gets a finished manuscript of course Bob is not here now but my editor doesn't get half a manuscript. She gets a finished manuscript. We were talking only recently on the programme about women writing for women and women mainly being the consumers of books written by female authors. Actually, we had a man on, a male

journalist who came on and said, I think more men should read the books by women. But do you think there still is that divide? And what do you make of the fact that sometimes those books written by women are looked down on by men, especially when they are involving the realms of fantasy and love? Well, that hasn't applied to me at all. I don't write romances. There are romantic things in the books, but I'm really writing about women warriors who go out in the world to conquer the world, in a way. And the men who I get emails from now, not letters, say, we love Emma Hart, we love your books. I have a lot of male readers. And perhaps it's because, oh, a lot of them say, you know how to write about men.

You know, men can cry. And you have men that cry. And you show the emotional side of a man. And not a lot of other women writers know how to write about men. But my books have gone away from that in the sense in people's minds, they don't think of them as being romantic anymore, because they're not. So you've got a bit of erotic charge in there, haven't you? The relationships. Of course, the relationships, you have to have that. We're human beings. Everybody has a sex life, I hope. So that's in my books too. But it's really about accomplishment of women having a dream and fulfilling it and women achieving things. I have great satisfaction when I start a new book and I finish a few chapters and I'm happy. And I think women feel that in any job they do. I hope they do because we spend most of our time working. Well, there is that and a lot of people will be able to identify with that. Although I have to say lots of people getting in touch with what they create on the side of

their jobs this morning, as well as everything else. You got to Fleet Street. It took great drive for a woman to get into Fleet Street as a journalist, especially when you were doing it. Why didn't you continue being a journalist while being an author? Well, I did and I still am. I still write things for newspapers. But you did take that direction. That's what I meant. and I still am. I still write things for newspapers. But I found... You did take that direction. That's what I meant. I love your early days and your stories of Fleet Street. Well, you know something, I'd always wanted to write. I wrote at seven. I sold my first short story at 10 or my mother sent it to a magazine and they took it and lo and behold,

they paid me seven shillings and sixpence at 10 years old. I didn't care about that. It was a byline. I couldn't wait to see by Barbara Taylor. So I always wanted to write books. And there came a moment in time, I tried to write four novels, none of which I liked and put away. And I then had the idea of a woman of substance. And I thought, if I don't write a novel now, I never will. So I continued to be a journalist as I wrote the book. And it became too hard. And the book became very demanding. And there was quite a lot of research. So I gave up being a journalist temporarily, not forever. Never forever.

And I consider myself to be a journalist. You do at heart. And I didn't mean you didn't write anymore. A lot of the time when you fought that hard to break into a system, which you did, which was very male dominated when you did, it must have been a moment for you to look at that and think about what you were going to focus on. You're also an English woman in New York. You live in America. I am an English woman down to my toes.

But I live in New York because I married a man who was German born, French educated and went to America. And that's where he lived. And I met him in London and I would have gone anywhere with him. Well, I wonder, how has it been? Of course, it's been an extraordinary time with the pandemic and lockdown and all of that side of things. I suppose you must keep a keen eye, even when you're in America, I know you're here in the UK at the moment, on what's going on in the UK. I get a lot of British papers every day and on Sunday.

New York became an empty city for a while. It did not affect me in the sense it did other people who decided to work at home, because I do work at home and I've written all my books at home. So for me, that was normal to be there writing a book. What was abnormal was the empty city, not so much traffic, restaurants closed, shops closed. But it came back quite quickly, actually, at least some of the shops. And of course, the food shop shops stayed open all the time. And then the restaurants opened up and I had my vaccines in January and February and I started to go out at night. People were somewhat surprised and said, why are you going out at night? Oh, well, I'm vaccinated and I grew up in a war with bombs dropping on me.

Do you think I'm going to let COVID stop me going to my favourite restaurant? By then, a lot of restaurants had opened. Of course, we wear a lot of masks, I think more than you do here. We have to go into a restaurant in a mass, but obviously take it off. But things have normalised. The cities, when I left a week ago, 10 days ago, it was very busy. The traffic was the same.

All the shops were open. All of the restaurants were open. And it was getting back. It's very normal now. I think what you said there about the war is also going to resonate with a lot of people, not least, of course, because tomorrow is Remembrance Day and Armistice and the 11th of November.

So it's very pertinent to hear that today and have that spirit, which has been a part of your writing and the way that you approach life the whole way, hasn't it? I think so, yes. I'm very positive. Well, it's infectious. Barbara Taylor Bradford, thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you, Emma. A name I remember well. Well, I'll take that. And the latest novel is called A Man of Honour, a prequel to her first, A Woman of Substance.

Your messages about your creations, as I say, still coming in. Kay sent in an image of her COVID quilt, as she puts it, which is made out of my husband's old work shirts and other scraps, all hand-sewn, mostly in the first lockdown. I just need to complete the ending now. If only we could have another lockdown, I might actually.

Careful what you wish for there. But it is very fetching. Wow, that's lovely. It's got flowers all over it and it looks like it's in blue, creams and greys. We have a knitter of postbox toppers says tracy going back to our knitting banksy in uh the carlton area of nottingham here's one i spotted last week it is a beautiful tribute i can't quite see what's on the top of there but

it does look like it is it's something i think for for remembrance i can see a poppy there as i say i'm so sorry these images come in a little bit small. I made this crib for my newborn baby daughter. She hated it, cried and cried until we put her into bed with us. Makes a great planter, says Will. Gosh, that is beautiful. It's like a boat. Gosh, she's missing out. Also could be a great swing for her maybe when she's older. I don't know how that's going to work. Keep those creations coming in. It's wonderful to hear what you have been doing. But as I mentioned right at the beginning of the programme, the Prime Minister has returned to the COP26 climate conference today in Glasgow. And while his opponents accuse him of running from answering questions over his MP's jobs outside of Parliament and the processes that govern that

or look at that, I should say, about standards, Boris Johnson is urging nations to, quote, pull out all the stops to limit global warming. My next guest is in Glasgow for the conference, having been inspired by her experiences of going to space not once but twice to talk about how we treat our planet. Nicole Stott is a former NASA astronaut and engineer, having spent over three months living and working on the International Space Station and was on the final flight of the Space Shuttle Discovery. Her new book is called Back to Earth, What Life in Space Taught Me About Our Home Planet and Our Mission to Protect It.

Nicole Stock, good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for having me. Well, thank you for coming. I want to talk about Earthrise, your Earthrise moment, and this idea we must all become crew members on spaceship Earth to fight climate change. It's a different way of looking at it. Yeah, well, I think it's, you know, as I thought more and more about it, you know, there's all this complexity and, you know, the way we solve complex problems, solve our challenges

and even in spaceflight, right? But when it comes right down to it, we have to kind of bring ourselves back to the basic nature of it. And what I witnessed in space and the way we on this mechanical life support system have come together to overcome the challenges of living there, it came down to the fact that we accept our role as crewmates. We don't fly on a space station like passengers, right? And so it became clear to me that that's the way we need to be living down here on Spaceship Earth. I mean, that perspective is obviously incredibly rare. I mean, maybe less so as we see more and more people going into space. I mean, not yet in any significant numbers, but in terms of the space

race that seems to be going on between some of the richest men on Earth. I'd love to get your take on that in a moment and how it's potentially impacting NASA. But do you feel having had that perspective, you just can't think about the Earth in the same way? Oh, yeah. I mean, and it's again, it's kind of simple. I remember, you know, everyone who flies to space, they want to get their face in front of that window and see earth. You're expecting it to be overwhelmingly beautiful and all of that. But I remember as I was doing that, I'm like, oh my gosh, we live on a planet, you know? I mean, that's something we know when we're five years old, right? And yet I don't think we keep it with us for some reason. And I really want to encourage people

to welcome that idea back into their life. This simple yet like overwhelmingly profound idea of the fact that we live on a planet together in space. That's a pretty compelling thing to consider. And there's not a day goes by that I'm not thinking, oh my gosh, I live on a planet. We're all earthlings. Only border that matters is that thin blue line of atmosphere.

And I'm trying to bring that into everything I do. And earthrise, your earthrise moment, what does that mean? Well, I think that is and what I hope people will find for themselves, too, because I don't think you have go to space to do this, or you don't have to fly on a spaceship, is just what you just said, this idea of, oh my gosh, the reality check of who and where we are in space together, this just overwhelming sense, feeling of interconnectivity because of that, like looking at the planet and realizing once and for all that everything, everyone on that planet is interconnected, interdependent, and with the planet itself as well. So that drives out this real need, I think, as a call to action to figure out how, you know, how do I as an individual become part of the solution? And I think that, again, comes back to be behaving like a crewmate.

I want to come to solutions and technology and the advances through the exploration of space that have potentially helped how we understand our planet and the climate. But to something just to keep with our theme a bit on today's programme, we're talking about creativity and what people have created. A watercolour in space. Tell us more. Yeah, well, you know, you can tell I'm a rambler. But I mean, I never would have thought to do that on my own, to bring a watercolour kit with me to space. It just I was so wrapped up, like I think most of my crewmates are in making sure our checklists are right, making sure we're ready to to do the jobs we have in space and to not mess up, you know, not be the one who, you know, screw things up if that were to happen.

And but I had a dear friend who was helping me pack for space. She was the person who helping me pack for space. She was the person who helped you pack for space. And she reminded me, she's like, you know, Nicole, you're going to be living there, not just working there. So you might want to think about bringing something that you enjoy during on Earth with you to space. And she's like, yeah, it's got to be small. It's got to be non-toxic and all that kind of stuff. And so I thought about watercolors. I love doing it down here on earth. And in hindsight, and as I was doing it there, I'm like, man, this is just one of these ways that we're bringing humanity with us. We're putting the human in human space flight,

right? We're not just there doing the technical work of it, but we're bringing ourselves to it as well. And I think that is not only reflected in, you know, me painting something of what I saw through the window, but this reflection on the experience, the fact that we're talking about something like an Earthrise moment. And what did you... That's the human side of it. I was going to say, what did you paint?

What image did you draw? Well, I painted this little chain of islands on the northern coast of Venezuela called Las Rocas. And I remember looking at it when I was floating in front of the window and thinking, oh my gosh, it looks like somebody had already reached their hand down, like with a big paintbrush and painted a wave on the ocean. And I loved that whole, I think my favorite part of Earth was that stretch from the southern tip of Florida down to the northern coast of Venezuela. Just gorgeous, like a jewel box, all these blues and turquoises.

Some that I, in my mind as I'm looking at it, I was like, man, I don't think I've ever seen those colors before presented in that way. And it was stunning. So tell me you had an easel by the window, right? You know, like tape to the side. Yeah, I think about it. It's like I get people like artists,

is plein air painting possible up there? Well, no, you know, you can't really sit in front of your window and paint what you're seeing out the window because at five miles a second, it's going to be gone before you can get the brush to the paper. So I had taken several pictures of the place and I printed it out on a scrap piece of paper. And I most of the time would paint outside of my sleep station, my little crew compartment, and at night before going to bed. But you could.

I mean, you could set up in front of the window. You just wouldn't be painting what you see. No. Well, I like to imagine these things. And I know one of the things that you want to talk about or certainly bring people's attention to, and perhaps this is also part of what you're talking about at COP26, is the fact that the work on the International Space Station

has made advancements in our understanding of the Earth. Absolutely. I mean, the whole the motto of the space station is off the Earth for the Earth. And I think it so beautifully describes what's going on. I mean, everything that's happening there, whether that's the way we run the space station, you know, the way we clean our recycle and have clean drinking water, the way we clean our, you know, recycle and have clean drinking water, the way we generate our electricity to all of the science that's happening there. And I would even include the development, this peaceful, successful international partnership that we've put in place, I think is certainly beneficial to life on Earth. But everything about what we're doing there is ultimately about improving life on Earth. And a big part of that is measuring, monitoring, surveying all of the characteristics

of the planet that help us understand how we need to solve the problems that are happening with it. But there would be and there are critics that talk about that, you know, space tourism, certainly, and also anything else going on from the individual countries, it will not help tackle climate change, certainly in terms of rocket fuel emissions. Even in the UK the other day, Prince William said, we need some of the world's greatest brains and minds fixed on trying to repair the planet, not trying to find the next place to go and live. Well, yeah, I'd love to sit down and have a chat with him as well.

See if he can grab him. Let's call him. I think that, first of all, everything we're doing there is about improving life on Earth. And that's since the very beginning of space exploration. And that's the human type or the, you know, sending out the robotic missions as well. But this argument that about space tourism too, I mean, if you look at what was going on in COP this week, Jeff Bezos, who I think probably gets the biggest grief for what he's been doing in space with suborbital space flights and tourism recently, is a co-founder of the Earthshot Prize, is contributing over $2 billion to conservation efforts with a commitment of up to and exceeding $10 billion. Well, I mean, there's a lot I could say, I had it at the time, but there's a lot of people

and legislators would say about tax and Amazon and perhaps greater efforts are needed on that front with the way legislation is created. Well, that I mean, I won't I won't pretend in any way, shape or form to have any expertise there. No, no, no. But my point is, you know, some people would say, well, is that just the equivalent of offsetting greenwashing? Oh, I don't think so at all. I think just like Jeff Bezos is overall like overarching mission for space flight is ultimately it's not about suborbital tourist flights. It's about building up the infrastructure to allow us to lift some of the most damaging industry off our planet, like energy generation, mining off Earth into space and bring that back to Earth. It's not about escaping Earth to, you know, to find that next great planet. It's about ultimately, again, improving life on Earth. And I suppose that's, it's just one of those tensions where you will be able to demonstrate

what has been found out and some of the things that have been improved. And yet, in the climate, excuse the pun, but that we're in around people feeling uncomfortable about the space race, as it's been called, that will be some of the kickback, I suppose. Just to mention, the astrophysicist Dr. Aaron MacDonald was on Radio 4 this morning on the Today programme and has said that competition between Jeff Bezos' Blue Origin and Elon Musk's SpaceX have actually delayed NASA's lunar plans. Well, I don't think so, because SpaceX in particular is in a public-private partnership with NASA. NASA is encouraging everything that's happening with SpaceX because it's allowed with purposefully to allow NASA to focus more on the, you know, next moon exploration missions, this plan to go to Mars and incorporating that

partnership versus NASA doing, you know, things that we've been doing for a while, like low Earth orbit with space stations. And I suppose it's just those concerns, or if anyone or you have a concern about those private players, albeit sometimes in partnership, what impact that will have on NASA? Well, I think the goal from NASA is that it will help improve the path forward. You know, NASA is the one

who established the relationship with them. In fact, when you look at SpaceX, SpaceX would not have been in a position to do what they're doing today without the relationship with them. In fact, when you look at SpaceX, SpaceX would not have been in a position to do what they're doing today without the support of NASA. Do you want to go back? Do you want to get on a commercial flight? Well, four of my friends just came home from one yesterday that came back from the space station. And, you know, so a company like SpaceX, who in partnership with NASA is flying our astronauts, are flying ESA astronauts, is flying JAXAs and Canadian astronauts,

and soon will fly the Russian astronauts in partnership, as we have been on the other vehicles, is now the mode of transportation for NASA and the other government agencies in partnership to get their people to space. Nicole Stock, that's all I've got time for. Thank you so much for joining us. And thank you for your company this morning. Back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. If I think I've made a mistake, I'll just sort of pause and try and read it again so you can get your scissors in. Paul McCartney as you've never heard him before. Are you ready?

Revealing the stories behind his life and music. We hear about superstardom. When the show aired, 73 million people watched us. Drugs. What we had to get into our lives, it seems, was marijuana. Falling out with John and Yoko. The thing is, so much of what they held to be truth was crap. His grief after Lennon's death. I was just sitting there in this little

bare room thinking of John and realising I'd lost him. And his sense of wonder. Sometimes I pinch myself and think, were we there? To hear all 10 episodes from BBC Radio 4, just search for Paul McCartney inside the songs on BBC Sounds. was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.