Woman's Hour - Barbie in China, The Hundred: women's cricket, Women & student loans, Why university students are staying at home

Episode Date: August 10, 2023

New research by the Sutton Trust reveals that more than a third of A-level students in England are considering living at home if they get into their preferred university. And in some cases, chooing lower-ranking universities because they are closer to home. Rebecca Montacute, head of research for the Sutton Trust, explains the findings. Hayley also hears from future student, Lori Cobon, and her mother Rachel. The summer of cricket continues with The Hundred. Hayley finds out the latest news from Beth Barrett-Wild, who is Director of Women’s Professional Game with the England and Wales Cricket Board, the ECB, and number eight on the Woman’s Hour Power list. Hayley is also joined by England cricketer Nat Sciver-Brunt, who is ranked number one in the world and is Captain of Trent Rockets Women. Barbie the film is a surprising hit in China, exceeding box office expectations. Why are feminists flocking to see it and how does it compare with other films released there this summer? To find out more, Hayley speaks to Frances Hisgen, Research Programme Manager for the Project on China’s Global Sharp Power at Stanford University in the US and Jingfei Li, a lecturer at Shanghai Vancouver Film School in China.Many young people will be looking forward to starting university and thinking about their student finances. Nicola Robinson got in touch to say that she believes women like her who took out a student loan in England have been unfairly penalised. She tells her story. Hayley also discusses the issues with Sabina Mackenzie and Katie Watts, Head of Campaigns at Money Saving Expert. Presented by Hayley Hassall Producer: Louise Corley Studio engineer: Andrew Garratt00:00 Opener 02:56 Students Living at Home 16:36 Student Loans 34:13 Women on Wheels 40:03 Barbie in China 48:31 Cricket 100

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Hayley Hassell and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Now, as A-Level Results Day is looming, many students are choosing their university this week. But will they get there? It's hit the headlines this morning that due to a population boom of 18-year-olds, university places are limited. Plus, with rising tuition and accommodation fees, more girls are choosing to stay at home with their parents rather than rent accommodation and pay for food and bills themselves.

So, are they stunting their career choices in favour of cheaper costs? What's your experience of this? I would love to know what you think. Is this a pragmatic choice or will young women be missing out on the whole university experience? We'd love to hear your stories. And sticking with university, do women pay more to go to university?

Well, one Woman's Hour listener has got in touch to say that while her husband has paid his student loan off hers has almost doubled in the time that she's had children it's all due to mounting interest charges on the loan while women are on maternity leave or in lower paid jobs and it's left some of our listeners with double the amount of debt so has this happened to you have you found that the interest on your student loan means it's now totally unaffordable? You can text the programme this morning. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at Woman's

Hour and you can email us through our website too. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider. So you might want to use the Wi-Fi if you can. And terms and conditions can be found on our website. Plus, have you seen the new Barbie film yet? I haven't. I'm going to see it in two weeks time and I can't wait. But over in China, it's been a massive hit amongst feminists and cinemas have had to open four times the amount of screens

to show the film to the massive demand. Now, I know that many women listening probably had a Barbie or played with a Barbie growing up. But do you think Barbie is a feminist icon or a fake floozy? Well, we'll be debating Barbie and all she stands for and how the film is leading to a resurgence of feminism in China later on the show. And have you been gripped by The 100?

Women's cricket is on a level with men's in this colourful, sparky, fast-paced tournament. But is it getting the desired following it needs? Well, I'll be speaking to world number one female cricketer, Nat Siverbrunt, to see why it's changing the face of cricket. And Beth Barrett-Wild, director of women's professional game with the England and Wales Cricket Board, who was number eight in the women's power list. So make sure you stay tuned for that. But with me now is head of research for the Sutton Trust, Rebecca Montague, because

thousands of students across the UK will be heading off to university in just a few weeks' time. And for many of them, it will be their first experience of living away from home. But at a time when finances are being squeezed, the option to move out has become unaffordable for many of them. New research by the Sutton Trust reveals that over a third of A-level students in England are considering living at home if they get into their preferred university next week. And in some cases, students have only applied to local universities, even if they have a lower ranking, to make sure

that they can save on the cost of moving away. So Rebecca is here now to explain all that. I'm also going to be joined by Laurie Coburn, who plans to study architecture at the Liverpool University next year, and her mother, Rachel. Rebecca, can I start with you, please? What has your research found? I mean, how many students will be deciding to live at home next year? Do we know? So we don't know exact overall numbers, but we know that 20% have said that they are definitely going to stay living at home, and a further 14% have said that they are definitely going to stay living at home and a further 14% have said that they are considering it if they get into their preferred university. So that's a considerable proportion out of all students who are saying that this is something that they're still actively considering.

In the last few years, that figure has been around 20%. So if some of those maybes do convert into definites, then we are going to see a rise in the proportion who are saying that they will actually live from home. Yeah, it could be 34%. And what's that in numbers? Do we know is that hundreds, thousands? We don't know exactly the overall numbers that that will translate into, but it will be a large proportion of all the young people going to university. So we will see many thousands who are actually living at home with all the associated differences that come along with that. Now for some young people that will be the right decision for them personally. They may have family issues that mean that they want to stay nearby

or they just really like being nearby their family and their friends. But what we're really concerned about is the proportion of the young people saying they will stay at home who are doing so for financial reasons, which is about a fifth of them. Now, that means that they are being effectively forced to make this decision because of that financial strain rather than doing what is actually best for them. And that can impact on where they can apply, whether or not they actually are able to fully take part in activities once they get to university as well.

It's a lot harder to do, say, extracurricular activities if you have to constantly worry about the last bus, the last train home, rather than someone who's based actually on campus and could, say, walk back quite easily. Of course. And so what is specific about this year's cohort of students? Because if I've worked it out correctly, they were probably doing their GCSEs or at least in year 10 studying for their GCSEs when lockdown hit. Has that had an effect on them? Do you think we're seeing the result of students and young people getting used to working at home? It's absolutely had an effect and this group of young people have been really severely impacted by the pandemic. The study that this data is from, the COSMO, the COVID Social Mobility and

Opportunity Study, is looking long term at the impact on this kind of pandemic generation. But they are also now the cost of living generation. So they've been kind of hit by this double whammy of the experience of the pandemic, all the associated impact on how well they'll have done at school, really different for people from poorer backgrounds who are less likely to have access to that kind of tech at home, be able to learn effectively. But now they're going on to experience this other impact. And really importantly, the actual amount of student loan you can get as a maximum

is only due to go up next year by 2.8%. Now, we've had all these discussions about lots of different sectors asking for increased pay to make up for the cost of living. But 2.8% compared to the level of inflation that we've been experiencing is absolutely tiny. And when we did some work earlier this year to look at students and the cost of living, we actually found about a third of working class students were cutting back on food and meals to be able to make ends meet so they're simply not getting enough day to day to be able to afford to live and that's then pushing we think this decision for more of them to be thinking about staying at home. Totally it makes sense and it's definitely hit a chord with a lot of our listeners

people are already texting in the program. Rachel has just contacted us on twitter saying my children plan to go to local universities so they can live at home the additional cost of living away would make it so difficult for them and i can't afford to help financially i can help by feeding them and taking no rent but they will miss out on a social life and their independence so there are obviously the pros but the cons that come with that as well so let's talk to somebody who's actually going through this at the moment. Laurie, you're on the line with us. Laurie, you're about to start in September your degree. Tell us what your plans are from September and why you've chosen to make this route. Well, architecture always seemed like the right thing for me from when I was looking at jobs, you know, several years ago

when I had to pick all my subjects. And obviously thinking about all the loans I'd have to take out to be able to go to university, I decided that staying in accommodation just wasn't worth the price to me. And if I could avoid it, then I definitely would try to do that. And of course, architecture is a seven-year degree so that's a that's a big ask isn't it there's there's seven years of independent living but how does it make you feel that you're having to consider cost of living in

your decision you know usually you just want to choose the best university the best degree course to set you off on the best line for the future. What's it like having to think about the cost implications as well? Yeah, well, it's definitely difficult because obviously I have looked at a lot of universities while I was thinking about what I was going to do. And I have seen, you know, very good courses, very good unis, but they're too far for me to be able to commute to. So in the end, my decision was that I would do my best to stay local which is obviously quite annoying because then I do have to you know make some sacrifices like certain aspects

of courses and things that are different that might have been you know better or otherwise which I have to like miss out on other things like that. And there's also the social life as well isn't there I mean I know your mummy's on the line now, so we can't be too honest. But obviously living at home has its benefits, but are you not worried that it might impact on your social life, your independence, all those other things that you would have got from living elsewhere? Yeah, definitely.

I mean, it will have an impact, you know, because a lot of people are still going to go into accommodation and, you know, doing after school clubs and, you know, student sort of like alliances and things like that where you go out with all your friends and things and then they can just head straight back to their accommodation where you have to consider traveling and travel times and everything like that so I think it would definitely have an effect on that. How do you feel about it there's only a few more weeks to go how are you feeling?

Oh very nervous dreading it really. Oh, very nervous. Dreading it, really. Oh, no. Oh, don't dread it. It'll be great, honestly. Now, I'm going to come to you, Mum. Rachel is here with us as well, because I imagine you're torn on this. On one hand, you get to keep your little girl at home, but on the other hand, seven more years. Can I just rub that in again? Seven more years. If you can be honest, how do you feel about that? Oh, well, if I'm honest, that doesn't that doesn't worry me at all. All I'm interested in what's best for Laurie. So, yeah, it's whatever, you know, whatever she has to do. And I'm I'm really conscious for her about taking on massive debt for the rest of her life, 40 years of debt. And how can an 18-year-old or

a 17-year-old when she makes those choices know what the implications of that are? So, you know, I'm a sensible mum, budgeting-wise, and my advice to her is to not borrow too much money if you can possibly avoid it. Of course. And has this been purely a financial decision for you? I want the best for her and I would love to live in a world where she could go and stay in you know go to whatever university she wants to and stay there locally and take part in that independent living enjoying being part of the student community I'd love that for her but I just think that as Laurie said the price the price is too high for that.

And you have to make very pragmatic decisions in life, don't you? And is this a decision you've come together? Is it a benefit for both of you, do you think? I don't think it benefits me, does it? It's entirely what's right for her. I don't know. You could get her to help out a bit more. Maybe. There's hope. A teenager might help out around the house. That's a good point. And do you think it has been obviously you've seen your child go through the pandemic in that lockdown situation and now choosing to go to university near home do you think it has been affected you know it's affected this year's cohort particularly have you got any thoughts on that? She I think this year's cohort is is just really a raw deal. They've been through COVID. I think COVID hit Laurie's year group the worst because she just embarked on the first year of two-year GCSEs.

She's taken subjects that rely on GCSE learning for her A-levels, and she didn't get the full learning through her GCSEs. And she's done really well to do that. I'm so proud of her, how she just knuckled down with, you know, app-based learning at home for the best part of a year before things got really sorted out in schools. And she's done really well despite all of that. But now she's facing, you know, the biggest costs ever to go to university to realise her ambitions. I just think that's, you know, it's the changes have happened quite quickly for young ones now. And it's quite a big burden, isn't it?

Yeah, it is a big burden to take on. You're totally right. Rebecca, I want to come back to you on this because our university is doing anything to make it more affordable. It is a massive burden for most people. And some people, let's be honest, don't have the luxury of being able to stay at home. So are they doing anything to help? So some universities or many universities will have kind of bursaries, scholarships, grants available and extra support for people who are really struggling with the cost of living. So please do take a look at university websites, contact a university, see if there's any help

available. But it's really important to stress that ultimately there needs to be more maintenance available for students. They don't have enough to live on at the moment and that needs to come from government. Universities can't fill that on their own. We would love to see the reintroduction of maintenance grants so that the poorest young people can actually get additional maintenance without adding to that additional debt burden and we think that would really help to just take the pressure off financially during the cost of living crisis for these students. And apart from the financial side of things, are there other reasons that have come up in your research why students are saying they want to stay at home? Yeah, so a fifth of students do so because they're actually their preferred university just is near their home. So they're just making it totally as kind of a free decision that they think this is a good decision for me.

I don't need to move away. And just under half of them do so either because they want to or they need to stay near family. Now, again, for some of those, that will be perfectly the right decision for them. There will be instances where people are having to not go because of, say, caring responsibilities and that kind of pressure as well, which again will limit those kind of options and opportunities. Of course and what kind of impact do you think that'll have on them? What are we going to see in the next few years if more students are staying at home? Fewer students actually being able to take part in those wider opportunities, fully take part in that kind of university experience, getting that experience of living independently and having an opportunity to kind of build something independently for themselves and again if they've had to choose not quite the right course for them

not quite the right university for them that could have a long-term impact in what they end up doing with the rest of their careers so really the impacts of this could go right into the long term. Well thank you very much Rebecca and Laurie and Rachel. Laurie good luck with your course. I'm sure you'll do fantastically no matter where you're living and good luck Rachel with coping with it as well. This has sparked massive debate online and loads of you are getting in touch and Jo has just emailed to say as a former university tutor I have found that female students who live at home have considered this very carefully. Obviously there were exceptions but I found that these students went out of their way

to make friends and take part in social, sporting and cultural activities. The other thing this enabled them to do was to keep jobs and community activities that they had been doing before they started their studies. So it's not all dark and dismal. Another one from a mum says, my daughter is 18 and hopefully off to London in September.

We've decided she will live away from home but she is markedly stressed streetwise and savvy compared with her older sister who were not who was not affected so much by the loss of opportunity of independent travel and an employer here who says that as an employer when looking for graduate recruits I'd prefer to see a potential recruit studied away from home as it implies increased life experience. It may take a while for me and others to change that unconscious bias. Well, thank you very much for getting in touch. And if you do find yourself in this situation, please get in touch. I'd love to hear from you today. Also later in the show, we'll be chatting

to two trailblazing women in the world of cricket. Have you been watching The Hundred the last week? I'd love to know. And have you seen the film Barbie? What do you think? Well, we'll be finding out about how it could be responsible for the unexpected resurgence of feminism in China. Stay tuned for that. But let's now keep with our subject of universities, because for many people, student loans have been a massive cause of concern. Well, one Woman's Hour listener, Nicola Robinson, got in touch to say that she believes women like her, who took out a student loan in England, have been unfairly penalised. She asked us to look into it. But first, she told me her story. I went to university the same time as my husband husband and he paid his student loan off about seven years ago.

I went on maternity leave around the same time, well, a year before, and noticed that my student loan was actually increasing because of the amount of interest. And because I was on maternity leave, I wasn't paying any of it off, but I was still acc amount of interest. And because I was on maternity leave, I wasn't paying any of it off, but I was still accruing interest. And then I went to reduce my hours to look after my family and continue to accrue interest, had a second period of maternity leave, accrued more interest.

And on the back of that, on the back of about seven years of flexible working, my student loan went up to more than it was to begin with. So you started with a certain amount, but then when you went on maternity leave or worked part-time, although you stopped paying off the main amount of the student loan, the interest was increasing. So now when you've returned to work, you've got more than you started with. How much are we talking? I started with 11 grand. Now, I didn't immediately start paying it off when I finished university because I wasn't above the threshold. So it increased then. And when I was on maternity leave, I was accruing interest at roughly £20 a month.

And that was over, as I said, over about seven years. So how much has it increased by? It went up after my maternity leave to about £12,000. And I started with an £11,000 debt. So how is this affecting you? Well, it's things like I am still paying a significant proportion of my wage 20 years on after my time at university. You know, I'm able to put less into my pension than my husband is. You know, it's not significant, significant amounts. I'm paying £100 a month. And I've been paying £100 a month when I've been working for about 20 years.

I'm now at the age where I need to look forward and start saving towards my pension. And it's just less money that I can put in towards that than my husband has. So do you feel that you've been penalised because you became pregnant, because you decided to take time off to look after your children? I just think I was 17 when I took a loan out and I didn't appreciate the interest would accrue at times where I'm not able to work or you know have good reasons to work and I think that that affects women in particular because they're more likely to take maternity leave. The student loan when you take it out is the only option on the table and I mean 17, to understand the consequences is not realistic. But I was never have any memory of being talked through the implications of this student loan,

and how much and how long I would have to pay off for. I could have taken a loan out for 11 grand in other ways, and paid that off much quicker than I have done this way. We're not talking thousands and thousands of pounds, but I think sometimes it's death by a thousand cuts in terms of it's just another way that we're penalised for having a family choosing to go part-time. And, you know, we already take a cut on our income as a result of that you know and then we have a hit on our pension but then there's also this element of a student loan that we just have to pay for longer because we don't earn the amount that we would do if we

remain full-time. And is it right that you believe the interest that you paid back has also increased can you explain that? Because I've been paying my student loan off now for such a long time, I do believe that if I'd not gone on maternity, I would have cleared the debt five or six years ago. The debt has now been sold and I was told the interest rate wouldn't change, but it has now gone up from one to five percent. What would you like to see happen? There's simple changes. Do you accrue interest while you're on maternity leave? Can there not be a pause when you're out of work for reasons such of those? But the whole system about accruing interest when you, for the longer, how long you

take it back, we're penalising the lower paid workers on this system. Thank you. That was Nicola Robinson there. And it's not just Nicola who is affected. Loads of you have been getting in touch online, actually. This strikes a chord with so many people. Lizzie from Sheffield has said, I graduated in 2015, having borrowed the maximum around £45,000. I now earn over £75,000. But due to the interest rates charged on the stock of debt, I still repay less per month than I am accruing in interest, despite being a high earner. So I am chasing a moving target, and that's without any time out of the workplace. It's a scandal.

Emily says, I'm 41, female, and after 20 years, I'm still paying off my student loan, even after a successful career. I got pregnant the year after leaving university and maternity leave plus working part-time meant the interest has just mounted up over the years. Thank you very much for those. I'm now joined by Katie Watts who's Head of Campaigns at Money Saving Expert and Sabina McKenzie. Sabina I want to start with you first because this is something that is concerning you it's happened to you as well uh what happened with your student loan what are your experiences

hi there well it's it's concerning me but it's also infuriating me listening to your previous caller there um very quickly you know i went i went for 14 years and two maternity leaves before realizing actually that whilst you may not make repayments to your student loan two maternity leaves before realising actually that whilst you may not make repayments to your student loan during maternity leave, the interest is still allowed to accrue. In my case, that meant that my husband and I, who went to the same university at the same time in very similar circumstances, repaid our loans at different times because I was the one to take time off after the birth of our children. I decided to take to social media with my concerns after realising this. And the response, I have to say, was overwhelming with thousands of people,

mainly women, contacting me to say that they had no idea that this was the case. And I think as Laurie's mum said previously during the show, that, you know, 18 year olds taking out these financial agreements is really worrying when the system is so opaque and so confusing. And I think that there needs to be a discussion about fairness in the student loans system and the impact it has in the long term for young girls and women. Completely and as you say I remember being sat in my school hall when I was 17 years old hearing about the student loan I was about to take out and I was told it was interest-free and even if I wasn't I was never explained that in the future I might go on maternity leave and might increase interest it's just not something that is explained to you at that time. How do you think it's affected your life? I think that over the long term, the

repayments that I had to continue making after my husband had paid off his student loan, obviously there's the financial impact on me personally, but as a household, it does impact families because that is additional income that the woman could be bringing in. Well, let's face it, when you've got children, it costs a lot of money. So to be actually be financially penalized for having them during, you know, during the repayment pause, when you're on maternity leave, it's just completely unfair. But there are easy fixes. If I mean, if we look to Scandinavian countries, there are simple solutions available. Parents who take maternity leave, for example, in Holland, are able to pause their student loan

repayments and also the interest from being accrued until they return back to work and start earning above the threshold for student loans. And that's something that I would wish to see in the UK student loan system. Okay, I'll come to Katie now, because Katie, you've been listening to those comments there, both from our listeners and Sabina and Nicola both make really similar claims that they're not the only ones. Is the student loan system penalising women? Like a lot of things in personal finance, women are disproportionately impacted by life events that reduce their financial resilience so they're more likely to take care of children or adults that they live longer with iller health they are likely to have a gender pay gap they are more likely to have a skills gap and all of that

contributes to lower financial resilience so having less savings having less in their pension more debt and in this case paying off student loans a little bit slower. However, student loans have been really politicised to suit party arguments about £60,000 of debt or rising interest rates above inflation. But it kind of masks how student loans really work. They work a little bit more like a tax. And so the interest that's being gained on student loans only matters if you're going to repay the loan in full in the 30 years before it wipes. So most people repay student loans at 9% of everything that they earn above a threshold until it's either cleared or 30 years has passed. And for people who took out student loans in 2012 and beyond, only 23% of them are expected to repay their loans in full.

So for the majority, they won't even touch the original loan that they borrowed, let alone touch the interest. So actually, things like maternity leave in those cases might benefit women because they will repay less overall. They repaid less during that time, they would repay less than their male counterparts. However, those like Nicola and like Sabina who took out loans before 2012 have much smaller student loans. People in Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland tend to have much smaller student loans. And also there's a sweeping

change to the student finance system starting this year for new students starting in September, which will massively increase the cost of university. So all of these life events that disproportionately affect women will potentially cost women more in the long run in all of those situations. Let me just go back to a few points there, because this is quite complicated, isn't it? It is. You say that only 27% of people do actually pay off the loan back in full.

But is that not because the loan's so big to begin with? It's going up all the time because of interest. It's very difficult to get there. It's still a payment every month and it's still a payment that's increasing and it's still a debt that it's increasing. That affects you, not only the amount you can contribute to other parts of life like pensions, but it also means that you've got this debt, which is judged by when

you apply for a loan or a mortgage. And so it's so it's not in a sense, it's not going away. It's actually it is actually increasing and it is having an impact on people's lives. That's absolutely true. It impacts your affordability for things like mortgages, but it doesn't work like a normal debt. So it doesn't go on your credit report like a normal debt. There are no debt collectors. I applied for a mortgage and I was asked what student loan I had left. They will because of your affordability and your disposable income. What it doesn't count as is like a normal commercial debt.

It's not added in that way. No, but it's still taken into consideration. It is taken into account, yeah. But it's kind of a no win no fee system and whether that's good or not is up to you but um if you earn less than the threshold for repayment you don't repay anything at all so if you go to university and you don't earn enough to meet that threshold you won't repay a penny for your whole student loan which could be great but if you're going to university you're probably going to want to earn more than that threshold and also is that

not telling women if you stay on a lower paid job you won't have to pay your massive loan back is that not encouraging women to to stay down in their career perspectives? Well that's the way the student loan system works and in those ways it's quite regressive and in some other ways it's progressive and there was a big review a few years ago on how the student loan system works and in those ways it's quite regressive and in some other ways it's progressive and there was a big review a few years ago on how the student loan system should work for both tuition maintenance and repayment as well and actually not a lot of those solutions that were brought up by the review have actually been taken forward at this point and like I said this September there's going to be a massive sweeping change to student loans. And that will change the repayment window from 30 years to 40 years, which means that

new students, particularly women who will be repaying will be repaying for most of their working life. And like I said, it works a little bit like a tax, it's an extra 9% on everything that you earn above a threshold on top of your normal taxes. That's no small amount, particularly in a cost of living crisis. And it does impact your affordability and your ability to save for other things. I'm so shocked by the amount of people that are getting in touch about this, Casey. I'm going to read a few to you if you want, because you could possibly help us understand. This one says, I got two student loans, one for my undergraduate degree and another for my master's.

Last time I checked, it was over £ hundred thousand pounds in total because of the interest however I've always viewed it more as a tax like you said rather than a loan giving you pay it back as a percentage of your income on that basis it doesn't matter if the loan is a hundred thousand pounds or a million pounds as a previous texter said I'd have to earn about fifty four thousand pounds even to start paying it off I don't agree with the system and I don't want to undermine people's stress and anxiety about student debt. But I wonder if this change of perspective might help. It certainly helps me when I look at the total figure. I hope so because I'd have a panic attack about that. This one from a parent who has three children now in their late 20s, 30s who all took out student loans.

They say, I really regret allowing them to do this. A financial advisor came to their school and advised how it was a no-brainer as the interest rate was so low. At the end, I asked what would happen if the interest rate went up. She said the government would never let that happen. But that's exactly what has happened. It's a national scandal and I feel so guilty about it. Michelle says, whether it be pension contributions, wage gaps, or having to bear the bulk of caring, it's just another way for women to be kept in financial straits. It's almost as if women aren't valued as independent beings. I mean there's many more I can read but what do you say to that? I go back to my earlier point that the politicisation of

student loans has meant that we're sort of not understanding how they actually work and that stops us from making really important decisions about our finances. And there are calculators online that can help you try to figure out if overpaying your student loan might be worth it for you. But, you know, looking at that overall figure, what you actually owe on your student loan doesn't change what you repay. What matters is how much you earn. And so when you're earning potential drops, that also means that you repay less. So this doesn't just affect women on maternity leave. It also affects people who become redundant, jobless, who take a pay cut, go part time, who suffer long term illness and have to take time off work. You know, and I think

that politicisation of student loans has sort of inured us into the fear of the scale of the debt that we're taking on rather than considering how it actually affects your finances going forward. And we've done a lot of campaigning to try and make that system a lot more clear and obvious and well understood by the people taking student loans out. Like you say, you know, your understanding was not what the reality was for you when you were told about student loans in the first place. And there's lots of reasons in the system for that. And both Nicola and Sabina are calling for the interest accrued whilst on maternity leave to be stopped. What do you think about that?

It's not something that we've campaigned on at Money Saving Expert. I think the issue is more complicated because the same impact happens for lots of other scenarios that not only affect women and parents. So, like I said, people who take on adult caring responsibilities for a time go part time, become jobless. They also have a reduction in their earnings for a time go part-time become jobless they also have a reduction in their earnings for a time and so if you're to consider maternity and paternity the government would also argue that it would need to consider other scenarios as well where interest might need to be paused um i think that really very much depends on your personal opinion and philosophy on on whether interest should be stopped during those events.

OK, well, we have had a response from the Department of Education and the Student Loans Company. They say borrowers are protected so that if their income drops, as it may do on maternity leave, so do their student loan repayments. If their income drops below the repayment threshold, borrowers do not pay anything and any outstanding debt is written off at the end of the loan term. There are no commercial loans which offer this level of protection. There are no plans to change the current student finance system,

which strikes the right balance between the interests of students and the taxpayers. Well, thank you very much, Katie, for joining us and for Sabina as well for contributing. Thank you very much for this. We will continue reporting on this because it seems to ignite so many people's interest

and so many people are affected by it. But thank you very much for contacting us. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Next, we're going to Woman's Hour's Women on Wheels. It's the first of the series. A few weeks ago, we talked on the programme about what might be stopping women moving over to electric cars, and the idea that lots of women just aren't that interested in cars was expressed.

Well the floodgates opened and lots of you love your motors it turns out and we asked you to tell us about particular cars and what they've meant to you. Well today listener Anne told Nuala how she came to be the owner of a purple sports car. It was unexpected. My younger sister sadly died aged 67. I know life doesn't always work out that way, but I always imagined she would outlive me. When she died, I not only inherited some money, the speed and unexpected nature of her death rather acted as a wake-up

call. And so I found myself thinking about buying my car, which I'd harboured dreams of, and thinking, well, if not now, when? So I decided to fulfil my dream of having a soft top sports car. I'm so sorry for your loss. And it's so interesting that that becomes the catalyst then. Which car then did you decide to buy? I've got a Mercedes E-Class Cabriolet. And how did you pick that car? Was it something always in your mind or when was it love at first sight? No, it was purely random.

I decided I wanted a car with a sloping bonnet because to me that's out sporty. And I really wanted a soft top. And I just fell in love with the colour. How do you feel when you drive it? I haven't stopped smiling since I bought it. Every time I walk towards it, I think, yes. And you live in beautiful countryside, so no doubt you're able to zoom around there. It's truth be told, of course, it's a hell of a job because the lanes are narrow and the car is wide. It's probably not the most practical solution living in Dorset. We're not talking about practicality today. We're talking about desire fulfilled. Yeah, my sister would be highly

bemused by the notion. I think she'd approve, but she would have rolled her eyes because I think the most exotic car she ever had was sort of a little Suzuki box, you know, practical. I was practical myself up until the point that I bought this car. And how do other people react? Because I'm often fascinated with the people with the, you know, cabarets or the open top cars. And it's nearly, I'm going to go out and say 99.99% are men driving them. Yeah. I mean, I know what I would have thought seeing somebody my age driving a car like that

when i was younger i'd have thought what a waste no but i sort of amused myself by thinking when i'm sort of going across the supermarket car park with my trolley and i think there's probably somebody sat in their car i'd hardly thinking oh, that old biddy is heading for the modern-day equivalent of a Morris Minor. And then I click the button and up comes the boot and I start loading my Mercedes. It's wonderful. Are you going to stay with this car, do you think? In my mind, I'm saying three years.

And the first time I get in it and I'm frightened, you know, of the speed and the sort of acceleration and things like that, the first time that happens, then I'll trade it in for something more sensible. It mightn't happen. That might never happen. It might never happen. Yeah, the car gives me so much pleasure. It's ridiculous. It's only a car, but I think she'd be pleased.

Thank you, Anne. That is truly amazing. I just love the fact it's giving you so much pleasure and I can imagine you walking towards that purple shiny beast, giving it a massive smile. Thank you so much for that. Well, our Listener Week begins on the 21st of August, where we hand over the reins to you.

So do you have a powerful personal story to share with the Woman's Hour audience? Maybe it's about overcoming adversity, moving continents, finding your purpose or even finding love or just achieving something that nobody expected you to do. Well, get in touch and who knows, you could be sitting right here telling your story on the Woman's Hour studio. You can text Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Check with your network provider for exact costs and on social media it's at Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. It's exactly what Nicola did when she brought us the story of student loans and it's ignited so much interest with you. So many more comments are coming in. This one says, I'm so proud of my daughter who's about to embark on a four-year degree in adult and mental health nursing. However, despite the NHS bursary, she will still finish in at least £50,000 of debt. She will be amazing,

but surely this level of debt is unethical for young people going into a career and particularly now understanding the fact that she will accrue more interest if she has children is horrifying. I totally agree that there needs to be much clearer information when students agree to the loans. And this one says you've just interviewed a woman complaining about high interest charges on her student loan. However she failed to mention that it would be written off after 25 years. Essentially, it's a gift from the government. However, you have to not earn up to the threshold to do that. Thank you very much for those comments. There's still loads more and I'll try and get to as many as I can in the programme. But for now, we heard this week that the film Barbie has hit the million dollar mark at the

global box office just 17 days after it was released. That was according to its distributor Warner Brothers and the news means that its director Greta Gerwig has become the first woman ever to achieve that solo woman director financial milestone. Well one of the countries where Barbie has achieved surprising success is China. There it has been described as a hit amongst feminists and cinemas have increased the number of showings to meet demand. Well, to discuss how the film has gone down, I'm joined by Frances Hiscombe, who's Research Programme Manager for the Project on China's Global Sharp Power

at Stanford University in the US, and Tingfei Li, a lecturer at Shanghai Vancouver Film School in China. Tingfei, I just want to start with you, please, because on its opening day, I think Barbie made up only 2.4% of the film screenings in China, but it's proved so popular now. I think at one point it topped all the searches on Weibo, which is China's version of Twitter. And I know the cinemas have opened four times the amount of the original screenings.

So what was going on here? Who's going to see it and why? And what are their feelings about it? Hi there. Actually, after the very first week of screening, there is a Chinese score platform for movies called Douban, actually has a very high score for Barbie. And I think the public praise is the main reason why people choose to go to the cinema to watch this movie. And also, as this is a big studio

entertaining Hollywood movie, has delightful colors in the combined comedy and the musical genre. Those are all the motifs that drives audiences' interest for a long time. In terms of who was going to see it, my observation is mostly young generations will educate it. Not surprised most are female audience.

The most interesting case I noticed is a daughter even brought her mother to go to cinema watch this movie together, even they don't share the same opinion. To be fair, male audience watch it too, but I think they get a bit confused because they might feel less enjoying than female audience. They might feel mightily offended

by the sarcasm towards patriarchy in the movie. So speak of the director, Greta is a popular female director here. Her former works as Lady Bird and The Little Women all have high score on Chinese movie score platform, Douban. Even it's more like a big studio film than the series of social topic critical film. But Barbie is a phenomenal movie here, no doubt.

The feminist topic definitely triggered the interest of the public, which has been broadly discussed over years on internet. But this time, I think this is the very first time that patriarchy problem has been brought up on big screen. Yeah, because there were quite a few articles written before Barbie was released, actually, worrying about that side of the movie and basically saying it would not be a big hit in China. So what has changed? What has changed? Well, actually, as I said before, actually, it's the public praise

changed everything. The things changed because the score has changed. I wrote an article about this and I analyzed it. I think because this is the very first time that we see a direct patriarchy critics in a mainstream film. If we compare Barbie with Wonder Woman, we will see Barbie is not just the gender reversed female hero and she is the first female character is questioning the system and she also realized a bad system can make a good guy like ken turns bad like ken's problem is not just one man's problem, it's the whole system's problem. Yeah, this film is much about Ken as it is about Barbie. You're totally right.

Frances, I'm going to bring you in on this discussion now because why do you think that Barbie is resonating with feminists? And can you see why it has become such a big hit to Chinese audiences? Yeah, well, first off, I want to thank you so much for having me.

It's a real pleasure to talk about this movie. I'll say, well, first off, I want to thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to talk about this movie. I'll say that Barbie, I think, is a hit in China for two reasons. One, dynamics that are sort of shared across the global market. So we talked a little bit about the COVID lockdown and its impact on students in the previous segments of this hour, but the COVID lockdown has also had a huge impact on the entertainment industry. So for many people, it's this idea of wanting to get out of the house, dress in pink. You'll see crowds of people in Barbie core outfits in Shanghai and Beijing, just as you will in London and New York. So that's a huge dynamic that I think is shared across the world.

So it's become a social thing, really. It's a social thing. Yeah. But two, I think there's a special dynamic in China, which China has been facing, I think, a real feminist backsliding in recent years. According to World Economic Forum data, recently, China has dropped from 57th in their ranking of most equal countries, all the way down to 103rd. And China, in the wake, especially at the end of the one child policy, has been really pushing a message from the top, trying to increase the birth rate, get women back into the home. So are there these all these concerns about feminism and about the roles of women in the background? And Barbie has sort of provided an outlet for these discussions to surface.

Okay, because I know that Barbie is great for many ways. She is an astronaut, a physicist, as well as an amazing roller skater, you know can do anything but there is also that kind of materialistic um real push towards beauty um and image where does that sit because they're not feminist ideals yeah you know i think another reason that barbie was such a hit in china's china's the home of facetune of of filters, of weight loss ads, of diet supplements, just as much as any other country in the world is. In fact, many of the filters that we love on Instagram and TikTok have originated in the mainland. So I think Barbie, a lot of Chinese netizens on the site like Doban, which Jingfei mentioned, see that the film kind of has a mild message on these body concerns. But there is a slightly more

positive angle than your typical Hollywood film. I mean, Barbie has a sort of cellulite positivity message, which is definitely not something I've seen in the big screen before. That is really refreshing. And I know you're a bit of a Barbie fan yourself. You did have a Barbie when you were a child. In fact, I think the first Barbie you bought was in China. What is the lasting memory of the doll itself? And what do you get from it? And are you still a fan? You know, it's funny. So I'm half Chinese, but I grew up in the United States. And on my very first trip to China in the late 2000s, Mattel had just opened up their first China flagship on a street called Hua Hailu in Shanghai,

which I suppose your listeners could think of as equivalent to like an Oxford Circus major commercial center. And my Chinese relatives brought me because they thought it was the cool thing to do. And they bought me a Barbie and it horrified my mother because for her, Barbie was loaded with all of these associations. That's what it was loaded for with my Chinese relatives. So for her, she thought, oh my gosh, this is a symbol of regressive ideas. But for my Chinese relatives who are more unfamiliar with the doll, it was a symbol of empowerment. And it was kind of a cool thing in the mid 2000s of a little bit of westernization and Western culture entering China. So for me, I think Barbie really holds both of those contradictions. And I think the slogan of the movie was brilliant, that Greta was marketing it as this movie is for if you love Barbie,

and this movie is also for if you hate Barbie. Yeah, and I've not seen it yet. I'm going to see it in two weeks, and I actually cannot wait. I know that it deals with all kinds of things like body image and immortality, so I think I'm going to be completely absorbed. But thank you, both of you, for coming on to talk to us about it. And we will be talking about it much more throughout the week as well. So thank you very much.

Now we're on to some sport news because this year has been an amazing summer of women's sports and it's not just the footy and the lionesses that has got us excited. We've had the women's netball where England made it to the final although sadly they lost to Australia and there's currently the World Cycling Championships taking place in Glasgow where Team GB, including the women cyclists, have picked up gold and silver medals. And this month, with its razzmatazz of live music and entertainment and fireworks,

the summer of cricket continues with the 100. Well, the tournament returned for its third year. And to tell us more, I'm joined by Beth Barrett-Wild, Director of Women's Professional Game with the England and Wales Cricket Board, the ECB. Beth was also number eight on the Woman's Hour Power List, you may remember. Beth, great to have you on the programme again. And also joining us is England's cricketer

and all-rounder, Nat Siver-Brundt, who's number, rate number one in the world and captain of Trent Rockets Women. So thank you so much, both of you, for joining us. It's lovely to have you. Nat, I want to start with you first because you're in the middle of this tournament. The Trent Rockets played yesterday

against the Northern Superchargers. Now, sadly, you were defeated, but you're still hopeful your team can turn this round, aren't you? How are you feeling about it? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we've played two games so far. One did get rained off. So we do have a point on the board, which is a positive. But yeah, I guess performance wise, we probably

haven't really got to where we want to get to yet. But as a side, you know, this competition is so quick. There's no really time for dwelling on anything. So, yeah, we're heading down to London today because our next game is at Lourdes on Saturday. So, yeah, we're keeping the energy up and, yeah, hoping for a win on Saturday. Amazing luck to you. And also, you're right, there is so much energy behind it

and it is such a quick game. What do you love about the 100 that's different to other cricket matches? I think the appeal of so many different factors. It's not just cricket fans who want to come and watch. There's music. It just seems like such a more of an entertainment, I guess, kind of tournament. And when you're part of it, things happen so quickly.

The game sort of passes you by. But know the amount of people that come to watch us and and you know all of the faces that come uh asking us for signatures asking us for selfies everything is just such a refreshing thing to be part of um it is so exciting it's so exciting to watch as well as i'm sure it is to play um beth I mean, the 100 is a tournament that's relatively new. We spoke to you about it back in March and you were number eight in our power list because you've been so instrumental in raising the profile of women's cricket and this tournament, the 100 especially.

Remind us what makes this so different, why it came about and what you're hoping to achieve with it. Yeah, so the 100, yeah, as you said there, it's a brand new world-class cricket competition. So we launched it back in 2021. I think it's really special because it presents men and women on a shared platform. So it really gives that scale and visibility to the women's game at a level that perhaps we haven't seen before.

And we're seeing thousands of people coming through to watch those matches in grounds and also through the broadcast, which the BBC is a key part of that. So it really is this sort of fusion of world-class cricket as Nat touched on there with some blockbuster entertainment off the field as well so we have a brilliant partnership with BBC introducing music and at the end of its heart it's all about just throwing cricket stores open to more people especially families and young people and I think we're definitely seeing that we're seeing a much sort of greater proportion of women and children coming through to watch those matches so really just trying to really engage that sort of broader audience for cricket and i think it's been um it's been sort of transformative actually for the women's game

in terms of the attendances that we're seeing so we're seeing you know thousands of people coming through sort of breaking those records all the time um so yeah it's a it's really exciting time that's great and that and that is its aim, isn't it? It's trying to put the women's game on an equal footing to the men's and attract new audiences. But is it working? Is it getting as much popularity as the men's game? Is it as popular as the Ashes yet? Yeah, I think it's definitely working. I think, you know, it is a new competition.

We're only sort of in our third cycle now, but I think we're already seeing the platform that it's given to women's cricket. And I think actually for this summer in particular, having had the men's and the women's ashes leading into the 100, we're seeing more people than ever before falling in love with the game. And I think that's certainly the most exciting thing for me. So it's how those two things marry up, how we can sort of use this 100 platform to really throw cricket stores open and get more people through and watching. So I think in terms of scale that we're seeing around the women's game now, absolutely, I think the 100 has given it an amazing platform to do that. What do you think, Nat?

Because as a cricketer, you know, I mean, do you think the women's game is going from strength to strength? Do you feel the scales are starting to tip? Definitely. I think we've seen it with many sports, really. Women's sports in particular. We see the Lionesses had a success with the Euros and they're going well in the

World Cup. The rugby players are also doing really well. It just seems like the last probably 18 months to two years has been an incredible launching platform for women's sport. Obviously, we've just had the women's ashes that absolutely knocked any records out of the park, really.

And yeah, it's just, I guess, it's just such a great time to have a tournament like this, to have it be equal for the men's and the women's. It just shows, I guess, where we can go and where, you know, in the last three years of the 100, where we've come from, really. And it's really interesting because I'd be interested to find out how you got into cricket because I know it wasn't your first love. You were very much into football and tennis even. So how did cricket attract you

and how are you hoping it will attract a new player in the future? Yeah, I played any sport possible really when I was younger. But it was mainly the social aspect. The team that I was part of at my cricket club, I really liked spending a whole Sunday with luckily, you know, my parents did drop me off and they seemed to get along with the parents as well which was useful um but yeah it was really the social aspect because cricket is such a unique sport you know you're spending half of the day off the pitch and you're just chatting and sort of milling around and getting to know one another and then uh the other half you're on the pitch together and yeah yeah, so it's such a social sport.

And yeah, I really felt like I had some great friends in the cricket team. So that's really why I, I guess, stuck with cricket. Yeah, and when the sun's shining, it can be a beautiful, wonderful day. But we do know that there are still less girls getting into the sport. What do you think the ECB should be doing to try and even up the weight?

Yeah, that's a tricky one. I guess we've had, you know, in the last few years, there's certainly been strides made in that. And, you know, with charities such as Chance to Shine and more recently Take Her Lead. They're, I guess, really, sorry, and the ACE programme as well. It's really giving, I guess, equal measure to boys and girls to be able to join in cricket.

And, you know, there's things like All Stars and Dynamo that Beth can tell you about because I know her kids have joined in. Yeah, my kids do it too. No, it is great. We are running out of time but I know I could talk to you about this all day. I know your next match for the Trent Rockets is on Saturday so good luck for that and if you qualify to the

final of the 100 it's at Lourdes on Saturday the 27th of August so thank you so much both of you for coming to join me and good luck with those matches. Tomorrow I'll be joined by Emma Rawits, an award winning young saxophonist and composer already making waves on the UK music scene, described as an astonishing new talent by Jamie Cullum. So make sure you come and visit us tomorrow.

She'll be performing live and I can't wait. Well, thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds. Hi, it's Annette Catwalla. And Charlotte Stavrou here. We wanted to tell you that season two of All Consuming from BBC Radio 4 is here. In this series, we'll be once again delving into our culture of consumption by examining the services and products that have changed the world.

This time, we're looking at houseplants. I fell in love with that madly. The idea of just turning a plant into this giant analogue synthesiser. Running shoes. The beauty of it is you get a chance to understand performance at the highest level. And tea. It's the connection and the safety cues to your body that it's over and you're safe. And much more.

So join us for the second season of All Consuming, available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.