Woman's Hour - Barbie, Spain's election, Rallycross driver Catie Munnings, Author and comedian Andi Osho

Episode Date: July 21, 2023

As the film Barbie opens in cinemas today, Set Decorator Katie Spencer and Production Designer Sarah Greenwood discuss how they created Barbieland in a real life space, the invasion of everything pink, and how they approached the film having never played with Barbies themselves.This Sunday, Spain is holding a general election, after the current Prime Minister, Pedro Sanchez, dissolved parliament in May and called for a snap election. Aitor Hernández-Morales, a reporter for Politico Europe and Professor of Gender Studies at LSE Mary Evans discuss some of the issues of concern around gender equality, women's rights, gender based violence and the rights of the LGBTQ+ community. A video showing two women being paraded naked by a mob in the state of Manipur has sparked outrage and protest throughout India. To discuss the background to this case and how women's bodies have become a battleground during conflict, Anita hears from the BBC's Geeta Pandey from Delhi.The stand-up comedian and actor Andi Osho has just written her second novel, ‘Tough Crowd’. It is the story of Abi, a wannabe-comedian, who meets Will and quickly falls in love. However the relationship is complicated because her new beau is a dad. Andi joins Anita to talk about some of the themes of her writing; blended families, grassroots comedy and the power of friendships. Rally driver Catie Munnings joins Anita to discuss taking part in the World Rallycross Championships taking place this weekend. She's also an ambassador for Girls on Track, which works to encourage girls into the motorsport industry.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Comedian and writer Andy Osho is joining me later to talk about her new novel, but she's also currently editing her mother's memoir, which her mother has written as a legacy gift to her children. What a beautiful thing to do. So on this fine Friday morning, I'd like you all to have a think and tell me what you might or have already planned to leave

as a legacy gift for your friends and family. My gorgeous friend Keeks popped around to see me yesterday and brought me a cookbook which she's created herself specifically for her mates and her family. It is absolutely stunning. It's filled with her own recipes and family photos, and I can't wait to cook from it, and I'm going to treasure it for life. But what about you?

What will your legacy gift be? Will you be creating something bespoke, passing down a family heirloom, or is the inheritance enough for the ungrateful so-and-sos? Whatever your legacy gift is or what you think it might be or if you haven't even thought about it, have a think now and tell me. You can text me 84844. You can also email me by going to our website. You can contact us on social media or you could WhatsApp me and I suggest you save this number in your phones under Woman's Hour. It's 03700 100 444. And later in the programme, you will need to buckle your seatbelts

because Katie Munnings, rally driver and now rally cross driver, will be telling us all about her speedy passion. And of course, I want to hear from you about anything you hear on the programme. Your thoughts and opinions always welcome. That text number again, 84844. But first, we're about to turn the world pink. It's one of the most anticipated films of the year. Yep, the

Barbie movie is officially out, if you didn't already know. It's in cinemas. It's got an all-star cast, including Margot Robbie, Ryan Gosling, Will Ferrell and Helen Mirren. Wow, what a stellar line-up. And it's directed by the woman who gave us Little Women and Ladybird, the brilliant Greta Gerwig.

And you might have seen the pictures of the set, complete with a real-life dream house, a pink plastic Barbie car, and even a Barbie beach with pink sand. The two women behind the design of the film have worked together for more than 20 years on films such as Anna Kranina and Atonement. They've been Oscar-nominated six times

and BAFTA nominated twice. Sarah Greenwood is the production designer and Katie Spencer is the set decorator. So how did they make all that pink magic happen? Well, I spoke to them earlier and asked what their roles actually mean and how they work together. It's a creative partnership

and, you know, it's like you can't put a piece of paper between us. You can't but I suppose overall like a production designer Sarah you would have the overall sort of say for the look of the film would you not and I'm more sort of interpreting

sort of an environment for a film yes but I think the way it starts earlier when we're working with and talking to the director very early days it's a very kind of small intimate group and it's that discussion as to how a film is going to evolve. Then it becomes immensely practical where we have

amazing teams who help us create the wonderful sets and interesting things. So let's go back to that initial conversation about Barbie then. What was that? They approach you, was it an instant yes? Well it was a kind of instant yes I mean Jacqueline Duran our fabulous costume designer who we've worked with a lot you

know Pride and Prejudice and Atonement and Beauty and the Beast lots of lots of films she warned me she said Greta's going to get in touch with you she she'd done uh Little Women with Greta and she's got this amazing script Barbie and you And you kind of go, Barbie, right. And she said, it's incredible. And, you know, and I just thought, well, the combination of Greta Gerwig and Barbie is going to be something really fascinating. But sort of the interesting thing about that as well

is when the first initial contact from Greta was we were doing a film called Serrano, and we were up Etna in Sicily on a sort of exploding volcano. So you couldn't get more opposite. And it was true. And the pink world coming into the volcanic world. So what were the biggest challenges then? I think initially disentangling this incredible script.

I mean, you know, some scripts, you know, a lot of the stuff we've done have been based on either real people, stories, books that have, you know, Anna Karenina, Pride and Prejudice, you know, so you have parameters and you have a lot of information. Barbie, Greta's script, Greta and Noah's script was just this

amazing 140 odd pages of stream of consciousness, wasn't it? It was like disentangle that that as you will it was and barbie is different because she has the only narrative that she has is whatever greta has given her on the page you know she's not anna karenina that we know the story of but ultimately was it was building it all in camera yeah and to make it feel like a toy and houses without walls and dolls with and without feelings, that was difficult.

And you're given the freedom to go away, create the world, and then you come back and Greta then sits with you? No, it's a very backward and forward conversation and development. And also, you know, it's kind of like, well, what's a doll? You know, how are we going to represent a doll? You know, and when your doll is Margot Robbie, you're halfway there. Yeah, exactly. She's a doll. And also she was a producer and she was a real hands-on producer, not a kind of, you know, just a name.

She really was there and part of it. How much were the actors involved in the set design? They loved the sets when they walked on and it was like they were playing and they, you know, the smile on their faces, but in fact... Can we take a moment to discuss Ryan Gosling's smile? I have to say, talk to me about Ryan Gosling any time you like. How long have we got?

Yeah, exactly. But Katie actually, you know, what Katie does and her interaction with the actors specifically, and specifically on this, was amazing, wasn't it? Well, it was. It was very different on this because, as everybody's seen in the dream houses, there is nowhere to hide.

Everything is considered in that, and everything... I mean, how do you show a perfect day when you can only show it within a few toy things? But also, I don't want to spoil it for anybody, but the dream house does go on a journey. Dreamland does go on a journey, which is very funny and changes considerably. And if you like Ryan Gosling's smile,

you would like, you know, all sorts of things. There's lots of things about Ryan Gosling to like, yeah. There are predictions from design and fashion commentators that this is going to result in the big comeback of pink. Thanks to you. And you actually caused a bit of a shortage of pink is that true it is true actually um you know we we you know people we have a very short time span to create things and you know so so we're busy looking at the palette of pink and and between us we kind of

created this 100 pinks right from like kind of salmon pink right through to dark purple pink and you find the sweet spot in the middle and you suddenly go right this is it this is this you know this is the palette and then you go right okay we'll have uh 200 liters of this pure pink pigment and roscoe this amazing paint company that we use went what what nobody ever uses that much pink you know you're talking pure pigment and uh so yes it was a bit of a scamper. And, of course, we only have like three months to go. We need that pink now. But we didn't think to tell anybody we were going to be using it.

You just assume, don't you? So it was a true story. Yeah, it was a true story. But, you know, pink is an amazing colour. And actually, having never ever consciously used pink before, I love it now. Did you not before? We never really...

No. Do you, though? How do you really feel about the colour pink? You do kind of, Sarah. Come on. I have actually painted my bedroom pink now. I mean, a very subtle pink, but I have painted it pink. Me too. I've got a pink bedroom.

I don't know, maybe it is subliminal Barbie that's coming through. No, I think it's the inner Barbies coming out. I don't know. Did is subliminal Barbie that's coming through I don't know did you play with Barbie no me neither so nobody here had a Barbie no I did not have a Barbie either I mean that's what's you know and the same thing with you know the whole the dream house we bought our first dream house when we started the show

and you know and just looking at that and how trying to understand what makes something toy. And it's kind of the scale and how you... We weren't recreating Mattel, we were interpreting Mattel and you're interpreting this massive toy that's been around for... Since 1959. 1959, when she was first invented.

And there's a whole myriad of dream houses that have been through it, and it's kind of refining what it's about and representing it in a way that, you know, it's... But it was quite good not having any... You don't come with anything. You don't come... Well, I suppose I had my own preconceived ideas about Barbie.

Like what? Which was that if you were doing it on a spectrum, she would not be my favourite toy. But having looked into her and looked into Ruth Handler, the creator, and the story of how she came about, I mean, I think Barbie had many missteps

along the way, but this isn't one of them. And there was a positivity when Ruth Handler first created her, even though she still couldn't look at you straight in the eyes. Her eyes were still cast down. Always averted. Always averted, the first Barbie.

Yeah, she was... Oh, interesting. Her eyes always cast down. Do you know, I have to say, I fall into that category. I too made a judgment about Barbie. Well, you know, when you've seen the film... I will take it all back, yes. Well, yes and no. Make your own judgment again.

It'd be interesting to see what people who are like myself feel about seeing the film. Preconceived ideas. Yeah. But the other thing that was really interesting was this pink and these sets and the lighting. Rodrigo Prieto, who's our director of photography, he was amazing. The studios were lit with a thousand sky pans and these soft suns and the quantity of light and brightness, because normally film sets are very dark, but we were filling it from wall to wall with colour and light. And you walk in, and we shot it in Watford over the winter,

and you walk in and you're into this amazing bath of colour and light, and it really was a therapy. It really was, and it just glowed. It was like pulling you in into the studio. It was like something I'd closely counted. So it wasn't in that sense. It was really joyful. Yeah, I was going to say that must have had an impact on your mental health.

I don't know much about colour therapy, but bright, beautiful sunshine and pink. Somebody told us afterwards, I think there's a baker pink in the States that they used in the 50s to treat people with depression. Yeah. It's amazing. And we only found that out, I think, last week. There's going to be a rush on pink paint after this isn't there? Just be careful which pink paint you use. Yes well go on tell us the specific, right don't go for the what is it

the one the pigment that doesn't exist Yeah exactly. You mentioned you know the importance of having fun when it is long hours and a lot of hard work but just fun and I wonder about your working collaboration because you have worked together for a number of years now.

What happens when you disagree? Do you disagree? How do you, what is sustaining this wonderful work friendship here? I mean, the thing is, I think what's important, because we know each other so well, and as Sarah said, we both have a, we come from theatre, so we have an understanding, you know, and all of that. And we look at scripts in the same way.

And we're sort of, we're brave enough to say oh well how about that and the other one will go just that's stupid you know and then you know the other one go okay oh that's a brilliant idea or I'm not sure about this and then you get courage and confidence in your choice. I think I think that is the most you know courage, you know, to actually go out into the world of film, which is, you know, it can be quite hard bitten and to have the knowledge that, you know, when there's two people to kind of, you know, talk it through and think and, you know, be creative with it and understand what you're saying and be brave with what you're saying and not be afraid to say something for it for it to be wrong you know you know it's so so I think that that kind of level of support and everything is

is brilliant um uh let's talk about what's happening in your industry at the minute about the current actor strike that's happening in America how is that impacting the two of you I mean I think I think I mean I think they have our complete support, but it is impacting the industry here as well as in America. A lot of the films that are presently shooting are shutting down. This is what they say. They call it Hollywood. Don't forget, we have a massive Hollywood representation in the UK. We are used here because we are so brilliant with such fantastic teams and crews and production facilities.

And so when they say Hollywood is shutting down, we're also shutting down. And we know a lot of our colleagues... So is Pinewood, so is Watford, so is... All of the studios, they're trying to do as much as they can. So the actors and the writers are on strike. And in a way, the actors and the writers have an immense power that we don't have as technical people.

Because, you know, but they have the power. And I think it's, personally, I feel somebody has to stand up and say, hang on, what you're saying is right. And, you know, and challenge these, you know, the AI and the streaming and the money and things. And because they're doing it for all of us, they're leading it for all of us, they're leading it for all of us. But I really hope it's resolved soon.

It is. It is really hard on an industry that's just sort of survived COVID as well and is coming out of that. And it employs a lot of people. And we're all freelance. And the majority of people are backing the strike, but everybody is hoping that they come to some sort of arrangement.

Another thing that's happening in all our lifetimes is technology and the rapid advancements and in your industry, the involvement of AI. As people who set the look of a film, you must care about this hugely. Completely. I mean, you know, I just think, well, what's really interesting,

and particularly, say, we go back to Barbie, you know, everything that we did in Barbie, it was very tangible and, you know, tactile. It was one of Greta's huge briefs to us. And I think that we are now, as an audience, we can perceive things, you know. And so to have the real sets built physically in camera, 360 degrees, you know.

And, you know, yes, there were extensions, but we made miniatures. We did all sorts of things because we wanted that reality. And I think that there's a humanity to what we do. And I think that if you just have something that's created AI in the computer, be it written, visual, whatever, music, it covers everything. Then we know as humans, we know what's real. You get a sense of it. And if it loses its humanity, then what's the point?

But equally, it's a tool. It's amazing. And, you know, when photography came along and they said, oh, you know, what's happening to painting? Well, painting found its way. So, you know, it's kind of like embrace it, but control it and make it work for us. Don't make us work for it. Sarah Greenwood and Katie Spencer, their production designer and set decorator for the brand new Barbie film, which is out in cinemas today.

Fascinating insight into two women at the top of their game. Lots of you getting in touch about the legacy gift you would pass down to your friends and family. Anna says, I'm the recipient of a legacy gift, a beautiful engagement ring that first belonged to my partner's grandmother. It's my most treasured possession. I hope to pass it down again when my time comes, hopefully many decades from now. Yes, Anna.

And another one here from JW saying, I've made a large quilt out of material taken from my clothes, like my bridesmaid's dress that I wore to a friend's wedding. Jeans I loved, my husband's shirt and children's clothes. And my Jane says, my legacy for my son and daughter are oak trees grown from acorns collected and planted in the year of their birth. These are now 28 and 25 years old. This is beautiful. My son's tree has a straight single leader. My daughter's is a double leader,

which I like to think reflects her adaptability. What a wonderful idea. Keep your thoughts and ideas coming in for legacy gifts. What are you planning on leaving for your friends and family? Or maybe you're just thinking about it now. Now, Spanish voters head to the polls on Sunday after the current Prime Minister, Pedro Sanchez, dissolved Parliament in May and called for a snap general election. Gender equality, women's rights and gender-based violence issues and rights for the LGBT community

have become issues of concern in the run-up to this election. To explain why, I'm joined by Eitor Hernandez Morales, a reporter for Politico Europe who specialises in Iberian affairs, so all things going on in Spain and Portugal. Also, I'll be speaking to Professor Mary Evans, Visiting Professor at the Department of Gender at the London School of Economics. But Eitor, I'm going to come to you first. Morning, welcome to Woman's Hour. Can you take us back to basics first and give us an overview of the current political situation in Spain? fragmented and polarized political atmosphere where you don't even have a clear left and right anymore. You have a center left, center right, far right, far left, and then regional parties scattered in between. And what that has led to is a situation where we're going into elections where no party will have a clear governing majority. So they will basically be forced

to rely on coalitions to govern. Up until now, for the past four years, we've had Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez, who's been leading a left-wing coalition, and they've moved forward with a lot of progressive legislation, including gender equality law and a new transgender law that was way ahead of its time. But it seems that there's a great possibility on Sunday that the center-right popular party will lead, that party is led by Alberto Núñez Feijó, and they have indicated that they will seek to govern with Vox, which is a far-right party that denies that violence against women is a thing. They have attacked the LGBTQ community.

They have basically questioned a lot of the advances that Spain has made during the past 40 years since it got out of Francisco Franco's dictatorship. So Vox, the hard right party, have some very strong opinions against gender equality. What sort of support have they got in Spain? Remarkably, they've been growing at a pretty steady pace. And right now, the polls indicate that they could actually be Spain's third largest party in the upcoming parliament. So they will wield considerable control. They have made clear that they will not support a minority center-right government.

They are demanding to get in if their votes are needed to govern. And they have indicated that they want to take over such key ministries as the Ministry of Education, where they plan on striking all bits of Spanish education, which right now has a very progressive component focused on gender equity and even courses that teach youngsters about violence against women and the importance of treating women with respect. Volkswanz to eliminate all of that. They consider that an excessive intrusion on the private life of Spanish citizens. What does that tell us about what's happening in Spain? Why is their support growing? Frankly, it reflects a larger polarization across Europe.

We're seeing this in countries like Italy. We've already seen it in Hungary and in Poland. It's an interesting situation because a lot of this is just a very personal backlash linked to the prime minister. Honestly speaking, especially from our perspective in Brussels, when we report on it, Spain is doing fine. It has record low unemployment. The economy is doing great. There's no real reason why people should be this upset at the government. But people have resented Sanchez for his role in the hard lockdowns in Spain. He's one of the few prime ministers that hasn't lost his position as a

result of COVID. But it seems that reckoning is coming now. And then his government did admittedly have some missteps most recently with a consent law, which, again, was very progressive and has generally been applauded around the world. But it unfortunately had a legal loophole which allowed over a thousand convicted rapists to have their sentences reduced. And that obviously has overshadowed the advances that law achieved. Okay, so what impact would it have if Vox and the Popular Party did form a successful coalition government, seeing as they've said that they want to roll back gender equality? So it's going to be complicated. On one side, Spain is very lucky because the gender equality laws that they have date back to 2003. They are very consolidated, and it would be difficult to eliminate those altogether. Moreover, Spain is a signatory to the Istanbul Convention and actually the Istanbul Convention is partially based on the laws that were passed in Spain.

It was it was that level of progressive when they passed those laws originally 20 years ago. To pull out of that would be very complicated. Spain would basically have to remove itself from the international community. That said, what we're expecting from boxes, for example, that they'll change the words that are used. So they'll stop talking about violence against women and instead call it inter-family violence. What that means in practice is that they would equate a partner who beats up his girlfriend or his wife to a grandchild who hits his grandmother,

which obviously these are very different things. So it would negate one of the fundamental advances that Spain has achieved in a few years, which is recognising that there is a clear gender-based component to this violence, that this violence is based on misogynist views, on classic machismo. Vox denies all that and wants to eliminate it and wants to present the situation in Spain right now as men of a certain age being victimized by women. So they're trying to literally flip the narrative. And what are women's groups saying about this? They're obviously horrified. And it's interesting because we're already seeing the potential impact

that Vox could have. They're already governing with the popular party at the local and regional level. And in some towns, for example, what they did was to pass a local regulation banning protests about violence against women. So there are certain towns in Spain where right now you cannot go outside and hold a protest with banners denouncing, for example, the murder of a woman by her partner. That for Vox is considered too much. It's excessive. It's not allowed anymore. And I know if you had to make a prediction for what the results from Sunday is going to be, what would you say? So frankly, it's impossible to make a prediction because for the first time in Spanish history, we're holding elections in the deepest part of the summer. Over a quarter of the electorate

is going to be on vacation. There's a record heat wave in Spain. So this election will depend on participation and we just have no way of guessing what could happen. So we could end up with a Vox Popular Party government. We could also end up with a hung parliament, in which case Pedro Sanchez would remain as caretaker prime minister through the year and we would have another round of elections in January of next year. Okay, Eitel Hernandez Morales,

thank you so much for speaking to us from political Europe. Thanks. Now we wanted to get a bit of background to understand this a little bit more. So also joining me in the studio is Professor Mary Evans, Visiting Professor at the Department of Gender

at the London School of Economics. Morning, Mary. Welcome to Woman's Hour. I think we need to go back a bit because we think of Spain as a progressive European country, which it is, but back in the early 70s, they were still being ruled by Franco, the dictator. So how did they get from there to now? Very different to the rest of Europe. Yes, indeed. Spain, first of all,

I think it's important to remember, industrialised very late. It was until quite recently, until the early 1950s, predominantly an agricultural country. It was until quite recently, until the early 1950s, predominantly an agricultural country. Now the majority of the population lives in large towns. After Franco's death in 1975, it only took three years for a constitution, a relatively liberal constitution, to be established in Spain. And at the same time, in those years after Franco's death, La Móvida, which was a cultural movement largely centered in Madrid, overturned, challenged, articulated a whole number of new cultural and social values for Spain. It's the years in which people like Pedro Almodovar started to work. I think his greatest film wasn't All I Know About My Mother. It wasn't published. It wasn't

actually released until 1999. But the point is that in those 20 years, from let's say 1978 to the 90s, what Spain went through was a real cultural revolution in which both people could speak openly about new ideas, new forms of sexual relationships, new ways of living their personal internal lives. And at the same time, the state actually started to put in place the legislative framework which is needed to support in a real world, in the social world, those rights and privileges, which had previously only been allowed to a certain section of the population. Spain has a very vocal feminist movement. Do you think that's in direct response to the amount of years spent under Franco?

I think it is. I think there was such a pent up feeling of we have to change this. We can't go on living in the way that we have been living. I mean, this was recognised in Lorca's plays of the 1930s, the terrible repression of the patriarchal family, the closed world of women in some kind of in some households. And people were starting also to see people coming to Spain from other parts of Europe, seeing how they lived. Spanish people from some of those large cities were traveling and seeing how the rest of Europe was behaving relating to other people. And so a whole new generation in Spain started to see a new way of life. And I think that's hugely important. And part of that liberation after

1975 was the movement of women into higher education, which had previously been a space largely dominated by men in terms of both academics and students. And women suddenly realised that there was a world out there which belonged to the men, which belonged to them quite as much as it had previously just belonged to men. And that sense of taking control through access to knowledge, access to the kinds of worlds that that gave you, I think became a really fundamental part of Spanish feminism, and indeed the energy which came from both men and women of thinking okay let's do something different. But we've just heard from Eitel there that the about the far right party Vox and they're planning to roll back on laws around gender-based violence. Can you tell

us a bit more about this because combating violence against women has been so important for Spain? It has indeed and I think in the last years, if you go to any small Spanish town, you will see posters up outside the town hall saying stop violence against women. I mean, it's been very, very public, that kind of campaign. I think we have to stand back a bit from Spain and say that what the right is doing in Spain is very similar to what has happened in other European countries. I mean, Hungary and recently Italy are very good examples of that, in which right parties do, I think, a couple of things which are really important. They start to articulate a sense of cultural loss as a challenge and as a threat to the wider society, the nation as a whole. They also do something which I think is very characteristic of the right. And that is that they start to campaign for less regulation, but in the social space, but they also start to want to regulate people's personal and private

lives a lot more. And I think those two dynamics are not just located in Spain, but we see them everywhere. And I think that that's what is being challenged and I think will be challenged in Spain. Do you expect a pushback against the government from feminist movements? I don't just expect it. I think it will certainly happen. I mean, it is, as I say, I think, in many parts of Spain, and Spain, you have to remember, is in many ways quite separated in terms of its regional politics. There are more progressive, less progressive parts of Spain. There are also very important politics about separatism in Spain, which play a part in these politics. But I have no doubt whatsoever that it is going to be impossible

to turn back that clock in terms of both women and men in Spain who see themselves as part of a generation which does not see rights in terms of new rights, radical rights, progressive rights, as taking away from anybody else's right. Fascinating stuff. Professor Mary Evans, thank you so much from London School of Economics. In fact, I'm going to ask you to just stay right there.

You might be interested in some of the other items we've got coming up and also Eitel, Hernandez, Moreles. Thank you. So thanks to you both. Now, do you ever discuss a topic with your friends or your family and think, I would love to hear that on Woman's Hour?

Well, have your phones at the ready because here's your chance to make that happen. I'm very excited to tell you that Listener Week begins on the 21st of August. That's the week where all the items are chosen by you. So we're looking for topics that we don't normally cover on Woman's Hour. So rather than campaigns or health issues, we're looking for something a little bit different. Subjects like the joy of being average, grave-tending, the politics, oh, this is a good one,

the politics of school PTAs, or in 2021, Hannah wrote to us to ask us to explore the history of Neanderthal women. So be it serious, emotional, hilarious, quirky, sexy, and the strange, we want to hear the stories you'd like your favorite program to cover and you never know you might be on woman's hour so let your imaginations run wild will you be the person to come up with the topic that's not being covered on the program's 77 year history let us know what you would like to hear on the show. Get in touch in the usual way, 84844. Or you can send us an email by going to our website. Your text will be charged at your

standard message rate. So remember to check with your provider for exact costs. And of course, you can get in touch with us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Get involved. We would love to hear from you. Listener Week. Very excited. It's going to begin on the 21st of august so send us your ideas also lots of you getting in touch about legacy gifts adele said i lost my husband four years ago and i had his shirts made into clerical shirts for me i'm a priest so his shirts are with me wherever i've whenever i visit the sick or bereaved and in all the services i take it reassures me that he's with me and supporting me every day. That's very moving. And another one here from Jennifer said, I've had a ring made with stones from my grandma and my mum's engagement rings and a 21st birthday ring of mine, which I

will pass down to my children. These are all beautiful. Thank you. Keep them coming in. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now to India, where a video showing two women being paraded naked by a mob in the state of Manipur has sparked outrage and protest throughout the country.

The police say they've opened a case of gang rape and arrested a man, adding that others will be held soon. The assault on the women took place in May but became public only yesterday after the video went viral on Twitter. To discuss the background to this case and how women's bodies have become a battleground during conflict, I'm joined by the BBC's Geeta Pandey live from Delhi. Good morning, Geeta. Can you tell us more about this incident? We know it occurred against the backdrop of ethnic conflict in Manipur, but give us some more information. Yes, it is something that's happened in the northeastern state of Manipur, which is actually quite a small state in the northeast of India, as you know, as it suggests. And there have been conflicts going on between the two predominantly communities,

two predominant communities. One is Maitis, which are mostly majority Hindus, and Kukis, which are tribals and mostly Christians. The fight has been mostly over benefits and who gets to own or who can buy which part of the land. Cookies at the moment have certain benefits that they get because of their tribal status, and this is what the Métis have been demanding.

And in fact, in May, it started off with a protest because the cookies were protesting because they do not want Métis have been demanding. And in fact, in May, it started off with a protest because the cookies were protesting because they do not want Métis, the predominant community, to get some of these benefits. And that has spiraled into this weeks and months of violence, which has degenerated into a sort of a, you know, like what is being described by many people as a civil war. And in fact, we've seen over the last few couple of months, 130 people, more than 130 people have died. More than 60,000 people have been displaced, they've been affected, many of them are still living in shelters in government shelters. And then there's a really serious situation. And then yesterday, the video emerged of these horrific incidents. Why are women being targeted? Well, you know, as it happens in many places in the world that, you know, women's bodies become

a war zone whenever there is a situation of conflict or rioting or war. You know, we've seen it over and over again. I mean, if I'm going to keep it specific to India, we saw it thousands and thousands of women who were molested, abused and murdered during the partition of India in 1947, when Hindu, Muslim and Sikh women were equally assaulted and equally targeted. You know, and we've seen it in Gujarat riots, in fact, in 2002, where we have seen even convictions in some of the cases where women were raped or gang raped. We have a very celebrated case of a woman called Bilke Spano, who in fact fought very valiantly to get her rapists convicted and get them in jail. What's been the reaction in India to the most recent case? Well, I think the reaction

has been shock, horror, anger. I mean, if you watch the video of the two women in Manipur being stripped naked, groped and assaulted and molested and being dragged through the streets, if you see that, I mean, it's truly disturbing. So obviously people are very angry. In fact, after the video went viral, the Chief Justice of India gave out a very strong statement in the Supreme Court of India. And he said that, you know, he's told the government that if you do not take action, we will. In fact, this is also the first time that the Prime Minister of India has spoken about it.

And he has said that the, you know, every Indian is ashamed because of what's happened in Manipur. Why has it taken so long for this case to become public? Well, that's the question, right? And that's the question many of us are also asking. And I mean, partly, I think, you know, because of the clampdown after the violence, after the outbreak of the violence, internet shutdown, I think the information has been sort of coming quite slowly from Manipur. But still, I think what everybody is asking is that the police who were aware of the incident from the word go, because, you know, what the women have said in their complaint that they had that they were they had been initially rescued by the police. But then a large mob comprising 800 to 1,000 people came and snatched them from the police and took them away.

And the assault took place after that. And the police have not denied these reports so far. So and they are in fact, they are saying that they were outnumbered by this mob. But the thing is that even after that, if once the complaint was lodged, the police have not done anything until the video has come out. And that there is no justification for that. They've not been able to offer any justification for that the only things that they have said is that you know we didn't have the video i mean they did not have the video but they were aware of what had happened they had the complaint but this was not investigated we're still joined in the studio by professor mary evans who

is visiting professor at the department of gender at the lse. I mean, we, you know, the idea that women's bodies are used as a battleground. And as Geeta mentioned, that has happened in specific in India, time and time again, since 1947. I mean, I think it's such a very sadly, as we've just heard, and clearly this case in India is particularly appalling and shocking to us, although in no ways is it the only case that we could name. I think what lies behind it is a sense of male entitlement to the control of women. It is, yes, of course, it focuses on the body. It can't do anything else. But it's also a sense of you are owned. I have power over you. I can tell you what to do, what to look like, where to go. I mean, it's such a

general sense that just because I happen to be a man, I have absolute rights over the ways in which you live your life. And I think that is so difficult to contest. We can make laws about it. We can argue about it. We can challenge it in all sorts of ways in our everyday lives. But actually getting to grips with that basic sense of entitlement, which I think you see globally, is something which is very, very difficult. Yeah, something we talk about a lot here on Women's Hour.

Thank you so much, Professor Mary Evans, for joining me this morning and also Geetha Pandey speaking to us live from Delhi. Thank you very much. 84844 is the number to text. Legacy, I will leave my artwork, paintings, drawings and pottery, some made over 40 years ago. I'll also be leaving my house to my nephews and friends. It's all very personal things that matter to me.

They say, I was here, this is me. And that's from Paula. Now, this weekend, the FIA World Rallycross Championship returns to a site of historical significance, the Lyddon Hill Race Circuit in Kent. This is where the motorsport was born 56 years ago. But this homecoming is also remarkable because one of the first British women to take part grew up just 20 minutes away from the track katie munnings has traveled

far and wide to compete in rally competitions becoming the fia ladies european rally champion in 2016 but now she started competing in a different motorsport rally cross and katie is also an ambassador for girls on track working to encourage young girls and women into the motorsport industry Katie welcome to woman's hour um tell us about rallycross racing how is it different to rally racing by the way you look great you look the part she's got a cap on all branded up a good girl uh yes rallycross what's rallycross how is it different to rallying uh so rallycross is side by side racing so it's's on a race circuit, but we've got gravel, we've got tarmac. And so it's very different from a traditional Formula One circuit in that sense.

We race side by side, though. So that's the main difference between rally. So as you said earlier, I kind of grew up in a sport where I was against the stopwatch on closed public roads, rallying all over Europe and all over the world in both championships. So now I've transitioned into electric racing as well so it's side by side very intense lots of sideways action lots of contact so it's it's an adrenaline-fueled few minutes on track so it's it's just you on your own but in an and in it and it's electric as well well now rally was on my own but now it's side by side we'll line up on the grid there'll be five cars all on the start line next to each other um and obviously they're they're all very

similar now with electric racing it's it's that instant torque off the start lines they've got a lot of power when you first accelerate and it's hard to kind of keep your vision focused when you accelerate in these cars because the g-force is so high now with the initial power that you have so it's very intense battle into the first corner well you're battling there in the car but you're also battling to make a difference in your sport because according to girls on track which is a joint initiative by the governing bodies the fi and motorsport uk um only 1.5 percent of total licenses recorded in the world are women so what's the program doing to help we need to get more women into motorsport how are we going to do it how are you going to do it do you know what i've seen such a difference even

when i started in the in the european championship when i was 17 back in 2016 um and even now um those few years i've noticed such a difference in the amount of females entering the sport um and we work with the initiative we we go around to different groups of girl guides or different groups of schools and bring them to motorsport events and at the beginning of the day we'll say who thought that they could be a racing driver and nobody will put their hands up because they say oh you know formula one I thought women weren't allowed because there's no there's no females on the start grid when they switch on the tv so it's about showing them that the opportunity is there and that it's possible and it's about showing them that at the right age that they have as much a chance as their male

counterparts that are all getting into karting or whatever they might be doing when they're sort of 10 years old it's showing them and giving them the opportunity that the guys have so hopefully we can get more girls entering at grassroots to kind of filter through to the top yes because we know we are the better drivers fact definitely i mean i love driving i'm completely with you i would love to have a go at this um how much of an influence was your dad, Chris Munnings, who is also involved in the sport? Presumably that helped you quite a lot. Yeah, it did. And I was very lucky to have that kind of introduction and probably got to where I am now because I knew it was a possibility. And I think with so many things for women, especially in STEM or in male dominated kind of areas of work,

it's about that representation and just knowing it's possible because otherwise we just shut ourselves off to so many things without considering them as an option to ourselves so that's something that we're really passionate about trying to promote in the sport nowadays. How easy is it though if somebody's listening to this and really loves the idea of getting involved I mean presumably it's not the it's not the cheapest of sports to get into is it? It's definitely not it's it is a really tough sport in terms of accessibility and I think that's why it's so important to get involved locally you know start at your local motor club volunteer as a marshal meet some contacts in the field there and it does kind of opportunities

always unfold I think people in motorsport want to help each other it's quite a friendly sport like that so you might get some local sponsorship or meet some teams and kind of network that way um it's one thing that I know girls on track are really passionate about running shootouts now as well talent shootouts throughout the country and across the world now to try and find the next the next big driver and give them an opportunity when they might not have one ordinarily and you are brilliant and so confident and obviously love what you do but have you faced any challenges i mean you are a woman in a male dominated world yeah i guess to me it was just normal it wasn't something that was different and i love the fact that we can compete evenly um you know in a championship that i'm racing on a side world rallycross at the minute

i'm racing an extreme e and each team has a male and a female driver um and we're both on track and it's one result for the team there's no male result there's no female result so what we've seen over the last few years is the talent um the lap times are the same now you know there's no difference and I think it's really cool that we can have that in our sport and to keep pushing that forwards and to show that this is an area where you know the physical strength isn't coming into it so much so this is an area where we can really excel and and beat the guys as well and I think you know that's that's a really interesting time for motorsport because it's not something that's really happened before um on the masses um and you are the first British woman to take part in the RX2E category this weekend is that right I am yes yeah I think I was the first woman to win a heat um as well for the last two races I've won um heats in both races

as well so it's very cool to be a part of a team. The team that I'm running in is actually the most successful rallycross team ever. So it's very cool to have their support behind me and feel like we can achieve a lot this season. Well, you've got the support of everyone here at Woman's Hour HQ as well. Katie Munnings, best of luck with everything.

Come and talk to us again. Thank you so much. And actually, never mind coming. We'll come to you. I fancy having a go in one of these cars. How about that? All right, let's do it. I've said it publicly now, so it has to happen.

Thank you, Katie. Thank you. Now, Andy Osho is a stand-up comedian and actor you might have seen in Line of Duty or I May Destroy You. She's also an author and has just published her second novel, Tough Crowd. It's about Abby, a wannabe comedian who meets a man and falls rather instantly in love. She finds herself in a complicated relationship situation as this new beau is a dad. He has two young daughters and they are not, how can we put it, immediately welcoming towards Abby. Perhaps this isn't all their fault or maybe not their fault at all. Abby struggles

bonding with the girls and finds the notoriously tough life of stand-up who's striving to make her name easier than that of being a potential step-mum. Andy, welcome to Woman's Hour. There you go, a little intro about all about the book. Thank you, it's lovely to be here. It's great to have you here. It's a funny, fast read, plenty in it that people are going to identify with. Before we have a chat, I think we need to hear a bit to set the tone. So here's Andy reading a bit. Earlier this morning we recorded it. It's Abby having just finished her act, waiting for a reaction from a man she fancies. We squeeze onto the end of the comedian's bench,

him taking a long, slow drink from his beer. Me just waiting. I've been off stage a whole eight minutes. Isn't this where he tells me, well done, interesting ideas, nice lighting, something, anything. Us comedians may look all conquering on stage, but in real life, we're fragile. Finally, I cave. So what did you think? I'm no comedy expert, he says, shrugging. OK, let me help you out. You know how sometimes comedy has like a message? He looks at me. Oh, that. Yeah, it was a bit. Come on, man, spit it out. Much, he says with a half frown, before his gaze flits back to the stage.

This is the story of my life. From my mum to my teachers, bosses to boyfriends, I've been told the same thing a million times. I want to collapse in on myself. My spank's the only thing that's holding me up. I mean, have any of these people ever thought, maybe I'm not too much? Maybe they're not enough.

Yes! Andy, first of all, congratulations. Book two, second novel, out yesterday. Well done you. Thank you. That phrase, a bit much. How thank you um that phrase uh a bit much how do you hear that i mean it it sounds like it's not very much it's not really a thing saying that because he says a bit much yeah but really it's the even just the very very audacity to say that to somebody that you're you're a bit much it's just so rude what does

it mean to you to me it just reminds me of the times when i was told i was too much it i don't hear a bit much i hear too much more than that person wants you're you're more than i can cope with so you need to change rather than i need to just take a beat look at myself why am i finding you overwhelming perhaps and also I think when you're a little girl there's such an idea of how we should behave what we should like what we should be into our energy levels and the more I think about it because of writing Abbey the more I realize I just had an overabundance of energy or maybe the right amount of energy for that age and you know we're a little bit restricted as girls,

so I didn't know where to put it. So it just came out all over the place. And well, now it's coming out in the most magnificent way because your character, Abby, is starting out in comedy, something that you did at the age of 34. That's right. That's inspiring in itself. And in your case, in real life,

you decided to sign up to a comedy course, but you were already working as an actor. Why did you decide to then move into comedy? Well, I mean, I liked comedy anyway. I love stand up comedy, but... Terrifying? Well, I always say, you know, the things that terrify comedians are always something different. Do you know what I mean?

Like speak for 10 minutes without being funny. What? Don't ask us to do that. So, yeah, but the reason I actually did the course is because I was getting stage fright when I was going in for auditions and so I thought let me do something that's going to give me a bit more um you know stage time without waiting for permission from the decision makers around auditions and it just completely took over. Can you be taught comedy or do you have to be funny? Were you funny anyway?

I was hilarious. Yes, class. You obviously knew you had something. Yeah, you have a, I mean, it's very different making friends laugh as opposed to going on stage in front of a group of strangers. And I don't know that you can teach people to be like naturally funny. Well, I suppose that is being naturally funny, but like I don't know if you can teach it. What you can teach people to be like naturally funny well I suppose that is being naturally funny but like I don't know if you can teach it what you can teach is technique and you can also

give people the confidence to bring out their funny so I think that's probably more what the courses are able to do rather than take somebody who has no sense of humor which I don't think somebody like that exists but like take that person and make them hilarious now abby has a role model in yolanda who's a successful stand-up comedian who were your role models were there um who can we name check who well i mean lenny henry was a big one because because i just read um one of his autobiographies and um i didn't realize that his background was more like variety rather than stand-up and the stand-up was something that he sort of graduated onto. But I have always seen him as a well-crafted,

you know, very experienced stand-up. And so that was really interesting to read. But like growing up, he was our guy. He was our Eddie Murphy because we, you know, Eddie Murphy was another one. But like in the UK, he was our person that we, you know, that we looked to as like, this is our stand-up king.

Yeah, absolutely. In your your book Abby has brilliant friends who are also trying to break through as comedians and there's a real sense of camaraderie between her and her fellow comics and the pub and comedy circuit how much is this real behind the scenes stuff uh as with so few able to break through to the big time because it is so competitive. It is. I mean, I really wanted to show what it's like at the grassroots level because obviously people have got a perception of comedy and the comedy world,

but they're seeing people who are successful who've already done that. It's almost like all the shaping yourself into a successful comedian gets done behind closed doors and then you see someone burst out onto the scene, onto live at the Apollo or whatever. So in this book book I wanted to show what people go through to get to that or to have the chance of getting to that because obviously not everybody does you I think comedians have just some next level tenacity like just keep going take the battering take the

heckling just just turn up again and again and again it Go back, improve, come back. What is that? I mean, I couldn't name it, but it is something, it's a particular mindset. And a lot of people fall by the wayside. They realise, oh, man, this is not for me. This is not what I wanted. Because they might have got into comedy wanting something else. They might be a writer who actually wants to get their work out there

rather than they want to do the hard yards as a comedian. And that's fine. I think there's natural selection, to be honest with you. Those who are meant for it will keep going and those who aren't fall by the wayside. That's a nice way of putting it, isn't it? Natural selection. Those who are meant for it will get it. Abbey's comedy develops, the story progresses. How would you describe your own style and is Abby you? Oh Abby's not me so she I mean she is very you know she's got quite a not a derogatory way of talking about herself but she she's a plus-size woman and she uses herself as the joke and her logic is that I'll say it before they do it worked at school so why wouldn't it work? And so the journey that she's got to go on

is realising that actually we're not in those times anymore. And in fact, she tells herself that. I don't have to do that. I can centre myself without, you know, being the joke kind of thing. So, yeah, our comedy is different because I didn't really talk about... I wasn't as personal, I think, as she is. But, yeah, I drew more on things that happened to me rather than the Abbey is me if that makes sense yeah you do you've

done so much you do so much and now your second novel yeah um is this a want to tell stories is this because you have to do a multitude of things? Is it always been something you wanted to do? I was contractually obliged. Get that second novel out. Yeah, exactly. No, I mean, I love building worlds. I love character and I love, I mean, I think there's two types of writers. I think there's people who start with their character. They, like, I know this person, but I don't know what happens to them.

And then there's people that start with concepts. Imagine if this thing happened. I don't know who it to them and then there's people that start start with concepts imagine if this thing happened I don't know who it happens to well I'm the latter I'm a what if and then I think well who does it happen to and I was like oh it's going to be this woman and she's like this and you know what I mean so I build the character after I've got the initial conceit but I just love doing that and I I'm sort of constantly having new ideas and feeling a bit sad that they won't all be realized because there's just not enough time well thank goodness you realize this one because only you could have created Abby and Abby needed to exist out there in the world of books oh thank you I love her talking of books you're we started this program by telling everyone listening that you are now editing your mum's book yes your mum's memoir because she's

left it as a legacy this is her legacy well I heard you talking about that and I uh and I thought I wonder if this counts because um yeah she she was inspired by this other woman who had said she had written this book and for that very reason of something to leave the kids and my mum went I can do that too and so yeah she at 79 she started mom's name Charlotte Charlotte's what a powerhouse I'm so she wrote started writing at 79 well no she started writing it during the lockdown so she's only just yeah she's only just finished it so that yeah what was that like two or three years it's been a long journey and what I have to say is wow you for saying you'll edit it oh well i mean i could see that there was i mean she's got an incredible life story but it was a little bit

like a stream of consciousness like what you know the the raw material is it being published we're self-publishing okay yeah so it's going to be out in february maybe you should come back with charlotte oh we would love that yeah we'll see you would love that. Yeah, we'll see. We would love that. Amazing. I want to wish you all the best of luck. Oh, thank you. It's such a pleasure speaking to you, Andy. Yeah, likewise. Best of luck with the book.

And Tough Crowd, it's out now. Lots of you getting in touch with your own legacy stories. My husband's grandma passed away earlier this year. I found two tapestries finished by her, but just folded in her embroidery bag. With the help of our friend, we turned the tapestries into beautiful bags. I gave one to my mother-in-law and now we feel Grand Paul is with us on our travels

when we have her bags with us. Very special bags. That's all from me. Have a wonderful weekend. And don't forget to join me for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, Woman's Hour listeners. I'm Dr Michael Moseley.

And in my new BBC Radio 4 podcast, Stay Young, I'm investigating some simple, scientifically proven things you can do to rejuvenate yourself from the inside out. Which will you try? Maybe a slice of mango to reduce your wrinkles. Delicious. Or learning something new to stay sharp. Will you try? Maybe a slice of mango to reduce your wrinkles. Mmm, delicious. Or learning something new to stay sharp. Hi, OK.

Hi, OK. How about lifting some weights to protect your muscles against the ravages of time? That was quite tough. To hear all about how to stay young, subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.